[HN Gopher] JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and l...
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JobCorps.Gov: free job training, food, housing and living allowance
Author : nateb2022
Score : 228 points
Date : 2023-08-17 19:07 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.jobcorps.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.jobcorps.gov)
| uses wrote:
| My brother went through this program. He got his GED and some
| practical skills. Overall it helped him get on a good track and
| get into the trades.
| anon115 wrote:
| i actually did this its not for me they do let you allow live in
| dorms which i find is cool. if you live in california their is
| also a program called
|
| california conservation corps https://ccc.ca.gov/
|
| its like this but much more cooler i think i was about to move in
| but due to health reasons of my own i couldnt :(((
| PeterCorless wrote:
| I used to teach algebra to students going through JobCorps. It
| was a second chance for young men and women who didn't get their
| diploma the first time around. I truly believed in the mission of
| preparing an new generation with education, life skills, and
| vocational training to let them become productive and
| enthusiastic members of our society.
|
| The site in San Jose Job Corps was run with some of the most
| awesome humans. I worked for John Muir Charter School, who worked
| in cooperation with the California Conservation Corps -- the
| hardy souls who go out to take care of our forests and trails. It
| was hard work, but awesome stuff.
| tristor wrote:
| I've known several people who went through Job Corps, got back to
| our home town, and then went right back to being lumps on a log.
| One person I know made their "living" scamming government
| benefits after going through Job Corps, and never worked in the
| industry they were trained in. The saddest part is all of them
| would have made many times more income just working in the field
| they were trained in /and/ the jobs were available, but a large
| number of people simply don't want to "work" (ironically, since
| they sometimes invest more effort for less return to scam than
| doing a real job).
|
| I don't know what to do about the sociopsychological issues that
| plague the lower class in this country, and it really rarely has
| anything to do with a skills gap (skills are easily obtainable
| for those who want to obtain them).
| asu_thomas wrote:
| The wages are too low. Without assistance, they'd probably
| commit suicide, so you're logic is based on a false binary. A
| job that doesn't earn a base level of dignity is not
| necessarily worth living for, so people give up. It's very
| simple.
| lagniappe wrote:
| Which jobs are there that don't earn a base level of dignity?
| vkou wrote:
| Lower-end service work in large, expensive cities.
|
| You aren't treated with dignity by the customers, by your
| boss, or by the size of your paychecks.
| tristor wrote:
| And where in Job Corps does it train you for lower-end
| service work in large, expensive cities? Most of the
| people going to Job Corps are not from large, expensive
| cities, and none of their centers are in large, expensive
| cities. The work they're training for is skilled blue
| collar work, all of which pays relatively decently and is
| not "low-end service work".
| vkou wrote:
| I was responding in a larger scope of jobs than what are
| offered in the JC program. I can't find much to grouse
| about its curriculum.
|
| I will say that it's a damn shame that it's not available
| for someone like a 40-year old who wants to get their
| life on track.
| numbsafari wrote:
| Yeah, it's not just expensive cities. They don't pay well
| in rural communities either.
| tristor wrote:
| I don't know what you're on about. Job Corps teaches job
| skills that are very well paid, one of the people I know was
| trained as a welder, another as a machinist, and one in IT.
| Someone with a CCNA starts at around $60k/yr in my home town
| and can make more in bigger metros, and if they continue
| learning can be easily earning $100k/yr+. Welders make
| $30+/hr, more in large metros, which is also roughly $60k/yr.
| Machinists make around $22/hr starting out and can easily
| make $30+/hr with experience or in larger metro areas.
|
| You can go "the wages are too low" all you want, but coming
| from a dead-end shit town, with minimal life prospects and
| dropping out of high school to having a GED and training with
| certifications in a field that pays above the median single-
| earner income nationally is a pretty good deal. I think Job
| Corps is a good program, I also think a lot of people who go
| into Job Corps are doing it as a last-ditch effort but don't
| actually have any desire to take responsibility for
| themselves or actually work.
|
| Every single job that Job Corps trains for pays a fair wage
| in most markets. While it'll likely never make you rich, it
| is certainly well into the "base level of dignity" territory.
| Clearly the people I know aren't tempted to commit suicide,
| they're still investing as much time as they can when they're
| not wasting their life away playing World of Warcraft to scam
| government benefits, so.
| supazek wrote:
| [dead]
| jmcqk6 wrote:
| >but a large number of people simply don't want to "work"
| (ironically, since they sometimes invest more effort for less
| return to scam than doing a real job).
|
| As you point out, it's also not about the effort. It's also not
| just the lower class that is effected. It's a problem at all
| socioeconomic levels. it's just much easier to hide it the more
| money you make.
|
| It has nothing to do with not wanting to work. It's about not
| being healthy.
|
| We do not optimize for health in this country. We optimize for
| profit making. It's not surprising we are massively unhealthy.
| What is perhaps surprising is that we're so stuck to the idea
| that profit making is the most important thing to optimize for,
| instead of individual health.
| blitz_skull wrote:
| > What is perhaps surprising is that we're so stuck to the
| idea that profit making is the most important thing to
| optimize for, instead of individual health.
|
| What makes this surprising to you?
|
| We've forsaken all pretense of moral fiber, we worship
| entertainment and self-fulfillment at the expense of
| everything else. And I say "we" in the "What does the general
| culture edify and promote"--obviously not everyone lives this
| way. But enough do that it's really unsurprising to me that
| we worship profits. After all, if I can get mine and live an
| easy life--why should I care that your life is hard? (I think
| the answer is that there has to be a higher calling than
| simply living for yourself, but in our individualistic
| society good luck pitching that to the masses.)
| tristor wrote:
| > It's about not being healthy.
|
| This resonates with the people I know. The person I'm
| thinking of that does the most scamming is also massively
| overweight, sedentary, and spends every waking moment they
| aren't scamming playing video games. I think they have some
| sort of serious mental health issues which are untreated, and
| likely they don't acknowledge or recognize these issues (it's
| never been a topic of discussion though, so I can't say for
| sure).
|
| That's part of why I think this is psychosocial, it's
| absolutely an issue of mental health and physical health
| issues combining to create a significant proportion of
| society that is incapable of taking accountability and has no
| desire to do anything meaningful or beneficial in their life,
| they're just wasting away like lumps on a log, even when
| given opportunities.
| paulcole wrote:
| > a large number of people simply don't want to "work"
|
| Nothing wrong with this. If I didn't have to work for money and
| health insurance, I wouldn't. Have simply never had any desired
| to "work" in my entire life.
| tristor wrote:
| I don't think it should be necessary for a person to "work",
| however every human being should find some productive and
| meaningful activity that helps their family and community,
| whether that's "work" or something else. Humans are a social
| species and we are not designed to wallow in our own
| selfishness devoid of any responsibilities or meaning. Humans
| derive pleasure from doing things that benefit others and
| seeing the results of that effort, whether that qualifies as
| "work" or not.
|
| It is not required to have a capitalistic mindset to
| understand the inherent value of "work" apart from the
| reality of scarcity.
| Eumenes wrote:
| "Free"
| kensai wrote:
| Cannot connect from Europe.
| presidentender wrote:
| A number of my acquaintances (rural Montana) went through this
| after high school. It is noble and it is well-intentioned. When
| students stick with it it often opens new opportunities that
| wouldn't be available otherwise.
|
| But it's not a silver bullet, and it requires a certain amount of
| diligence and self-awareness to be able to finish the program.
| It's not a party atmosphere like college or entry-level
| employment can be: how many 19-year-olds do you know who want to
| live in a dorm setting and show up on time? How many 22-year-olds
| want to go months without drinking?
|
| That said, it's a clear and coherent step forward for people who
| might otherwise feel lost, and that's a very good thing.
|
| Now, if only they had something for NEETs over job corps's age
| limit....
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| My ex-gf's sister went through this and lasted until a week
| before the end when she decided to get into a fist fight with
| another girl at the program. They immediately sent her back
| home and she lost everything she had gained. This ending up
| also eventually being the catalyst for losing her kids to the
| system.
|
| I personally do not see why job training should have anything
| like an age requirement. If you're old enough to be on your
| own, and you need assistance, then assistance should be made
| available to you.
| azinman2 wrote:
| Because it's the focus for this program. It lets them tailor
| everything about it to a certain age group. You'd approach a
| 70 year old whose industry has collapsed very differently
| than a 19 year old from the streets with no employment
| history.
|
| This makes a lot of sense to me. Just create another program
| that's tailored towards a diff lot.
| pmayrgundter wrote:
| Agree and came here to say as much.
|
| Devil's advocate, assuming limited resources for the program,
| it makes more sense to invest them in younger cohorts in
| terms of total ROI to society.
|
| However, surely doesn't satisfy the principle of equality
| under the law. Alas
| datavirtue wrote:
| I don't know of anyone qualified to judge someones "ROI to
| society." That is a totally fucked up outlook. What next,
| eugenics?
| something168581 wrote:
| Welcome to reality, population: everyone.
|
| Whether you like it or agree with it or not, the math has
| to be done at some point since we are not (yet?) a post-
| scarcity species.
|
| How do you think things like life insurance policies and
| wrongful death awards are calculated?
| l33t7332273 wrote:
| Deciding ROI to society is what the government does.
|
| Consider questions like: Why did we spend so much money
| trying on a Covid vaccine but not to cure gall bladder
| cancer? Why does eminent domain exist? Why do young men
| have to register for selective service?
| dvasdekis wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life#Estimates_of_
| the...
| labster wrote:
| That is literally the job of politicians.
| pmayrgundter wrote:
| They said "qualified", heheh ;)
| anon291 wrote:
| > I personally do not see why job training should have
| anything like an age requirement. If you're old enough to be
| on your own, and you need assistance, then assistance should
| be made available to you.
|
| Well, based on my reading, the age here starts at 16 and
| includes high school potentially. It seems eminently
| reasonable to me to have an age requirement for a program
| where there are minors. Otherwise, it seems ripe for abuse.
| But sure, another program for adults may be a good idea.
| burkaman wrote:
| The site says some of the centers let you live off campus. And
| why do you say you have to go months without drinking? I
| understand there won't be college parties there, but I assume
| you're welcome to go to a bar in your free time if you want to?
| A lot of the centers are in or near cities.
| verteu wrote:
| Seems you're not allowed to be 'drunk' even if you're of
| legal age. From the handbook [1]:
|
| "NOTE: Students who are aged 21 or older may drink alcohol
| when off center and not under center supervision; however,
| they cannot bring alcohol onto the center. In addition, if
| students of any age return to the center intoxicated, it is
| categorized as a Level II "intoxication" infraction described
| below."
|
| Where:
|
| "we consider an individual intoxicated when they exhibit a
| state in which their capacity to act or reason normally has
| been inhibited by the ingestion of a substance with the
| intent to cause such a state [including alcohol]" [2]
|
| [1] https://prh.jobcorps.gov/Exhibits/Exhibit%202-1%20Infract
| ion... [2] https://supportservices.jobcorps.gov/Information%2
| 0Notices/i...
| burkaman wrote:
| I mean that seems fine. There's kids as young as 16 there
| and it's run by the federal government, I would not expect
| them to let you bring in alcohol or show up trashed.
| verteu wrote:
| Personally it strikes me as Puritanical -- rather than
| prohibiting disruptive or abusive behavior, the
| regulation bans a particular state of mind.
| TylerE wrote:
| It doesn't ban it. It bans it ON PROPERTY.
|
| If someone values getting fucked up all the time more
| than their career, fine, but don't subsidize that
| behavior with my tax dollars.
|
| These people are not just getting free training, but free
| room and board, clothing, tech, and even a stipend on
| top.
| gowld wrote:
| It's a bit iffy if your own bed is on-center, so your
| can't sleep off off-center inebriation.
| TylerE wrote:
| Sounds like its teaching valuable life skills to me.
| OkayPhysicist wrote:
| It's fine to have ass-backwards, puritanical views, but
| it's not really the government's place to try to push
| them on vulnerable people.
| [deleted]
| hackernewds wrote:
| that seems like a reasonable recommendation. they are
| recipients instead of customers in this relationship
| gowld wrote:
| So students on scholarship should be sober, but not full
| pay students?
| Eisenstein wrote:
| It is reasonable to have rules regarding on-premises
| behavior. I don't agree with them, but there is nothing
| unreasonable about it. They probably also don't allow
| weapons or fireworks or other kinds of otherwise legal
| contraband.
| anon291 wrote:
| Drunk is different than drinking.
| foooorsyth wrote:
| > Now, if only they had something for NEETs over job corps's
| age limit....
|
| A bit ironic that the cut off is 24 and the rough age of full
| brain maturity is 25 (and loss of parental insurance is 26). So
| the young adults that had poor/no guidance or made poor
| decisions in youth don't get this opportunity once they get
| their head on straight and realize they need to acquire some
| skills (pretty common character arc for young men, at least in
| my circles).
| jvanderbot wrote:
| After 24 you qualify for significantly more financial aid for
| traditional or tech schools, because you are considered a
| "non traditional student".
|
| Source: used this to get my PhD coming from factory work.
| Regret nothing.
| da02 wrote:
| Can you elaborate what financial aid you qualified for
| after 24? How did you discover it? Word-of-mouth or Google
| searches?
| the_only_law wrote:
| Not sure if this is what they meant, but I believe the
| financial aid system considers you to be a "dependent" if
| you're under 24 period. Regardless of your tax filing
| status or anything else save for a few extreme
| circumstances.
|
| This means, that until 24, any aid you get is calculated
| based on your parents' income + your income. Even if
| you've been fully independent since 18. Combined with the
| laughable EFC calculations, this often means less aid
| available. Of course if you make a middle class income,
| you probably still won't qualify for any useful aid after
| 24.
| no_wizard wrote:
| IIRC there are two exceptions to FAFSA being considered
| dependent if you're under 24
|
| One is if you are an emancipated adult. The other being
| if you're married.
| monocasa wrote:
| The emancipated one has been added too. I ran into issues
| in the 2000s being emancipated but with FAFSA still
| looking at my parent's incomes.
| syedkarim wrote:
| I believe military service also qualifies a student as
| being financially independent.
| erikerikson wrote:
| Yes, military service emancipates you for FAFSA purposes.
| goodkittie396 wrote:
| You are so right about that. Hooah! Sidenote: If you have
| gone to boot camp, then the college can waive all the
| fitness class requirements. First time go!
| the_only_law wrote:
| Do colleges usually have fitness class requirements? I've
| never seen that in any GenEd section of a degree program?
| alephnerd wrote:
| Columbia does if you're in the College (aka 90% of
| students)
| [deleted]
| slt2021 wrote:
| emancipated route is how millionaire's kids get in and
| get financial aid
| [deleted]
| jvanderbot wrote:
| https://studentaid.gov/help-
| center/answers/article/independe...
| experimental123 wrote:
| That's very useful information. How did you go about
| finding resources for non-traditional students?
| jvanderbot wrote:
| FAFSA is 90% of job. Then apply for scholarships. Never
| take private loans. Work as much as you can to borrow
| low, but do what you need to do to get through. Choose a
| major that will make you money.
|
| In my time, factors like age mattered as much as other
| factors that separated you from "the usual". Nowadays
| that may not be the case.
| colechristensen wrote:
| I really wish people would stop with the "brain maturity" age
| thing.
| FredPret wrote:
| Is it your impression that the brain isn't an organ that
| develops from birth and reaches maturity at some point?
| gbear605 wrote:
| The age 25 thing is basically a myth. Different brain
| processes do continue developing into adulthood, but many
| finish developing younger while others never finish
| developing.
|
| https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/brain-
| development-25-ye...
|
| > When we spoke, I told Steinberg his work had been
| referenced in this way. "Oh no," he said, laughing. I
| then asked whether he had insights about where the figure
| 25 came from, and he said roughly the same thing as
| Cohen: There's consensus among neuroscientists that brain
| development continues into the 20s, but there's far from
| any consensus about any specific age that defines the
| boundary between adolescence and adulthood. "I honestly
| don't know why people picked 25," he said. "It's a nice-
| sounding number? It's divisible by five?"
|
| > Kate Mills, a developmental neuroscientist at the
| University of Oregon, was equally puzzled. "This is funny
| to me--I don't know why 25," Mills said. "We're still not
| there with research to really say the brain is mature at
| 25, because we still don't have a good indication of what
| maturity even looks like."
| colechristensen wrote:
| No, my issue is that people are implicitly or more often
| explicitly saying that folks shouldn't be allowed to make
| decisions for themselves or be responsible for their
| actions until they're 25. The progressive infantilization
| of people troubles me. That you have to spend a third of
| your life in this state is ridiculous. It is also self-
| fulfilling. People only stop acting like children when
| you stop treating them like children.
| foooorsyth wrote:
| I agree with your general position. Not a fan of babying
| people either. Still, I know a lot of people (mostly
| young men with minimal parental guidance) who were total
| idiots up to about 25 that could've benefited from a
| program like this. I much prefer stuff like this (total-
| immersion skill-creation programs) to EBT and section 8.
| I don't see what benefit there is to the state to have an
| age cutoff. Just take people who want to be self
| sufficient
| dtjb wrote:
| Pithy quotes don't drive policy, science does. We can
| preach tough love as much as we want but it doesn't
| change the physical reality of adolescent brain
| morphometry.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/
| downWidOutaFite wrote:
| > The progressive infantilization of people troubles me
|
| Since you're making this political I'd like to point out
| that it is conservatives that have started a movement to
| repeal the 26th amendment and raise the voting age.
| ozzmotik wrote:
| i believe you've misinterpreted the meaning of the word
| progressive here to refer to political progressives,
| rather than simply just "gradual/ongoing" which is what
| the use of it here suggests to me personally
| SamoyedFurFluff wrote:
| In my experience people will act like children regardless
| of your own behavior...
| theptip wrote:
| Agreed with the general thrust here; I read something
| recently from a scientist in the field that the 25 number
| is completely made up. It doesn't come from any objective
| metric.
|
| That said the idea that you do most of your growing up
| before 25, but still do some of it 18-24 should not be
| controversial. I wouldn't use that observation to deny
| education/apprenticeship benefits from anyone though.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| Urban Dictionary says:
|
| NEET
|
| This is a term used in the field of education, the acronym
| stands for; Not in Education, Employment or Training but young
| people have started to use it as a term for bums/layabouts with
| no future.
| fancy_hammer wrote:
| NEET was code for bums/ layabouts/hikikomori right from the
| beginning I suspect. ;)
| avree wrote:
| Yes, because generally speaking if you are not in Education,
| Employment, or Training, you are spinning your wheels.
| lacoolj wrote:
| or a stay at home mom
| toasted-subs wrote:
| Shit I'll go months/years without drinking or smoking only to
| find out that everybody else seems to have gotten away with
| murder but me.
| ForHackernews wrote:
| > how many 19-year-olds do you know who want to live in a dorm
| setting and show up on time?
|
| Sounds like all the young people in the military.
| yamazakiwi wrote:
| None of us wanted to live in a dorm setting or enjoyed
| showing up on time.
|
| Most are in to get away from their native location or to get
| money for school/GI Bill, not because the idea of military is
| more appealing than being a civilian.
| JohnFen wrote:
| And all freshman at the university my children went to, where
| all first-year students are required to live in the dorms.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Same at my young son's university. They looked out for each
| other, if somebody didn't show they'd check in back in the
| dorm, see if everything was all right.
|
| Probably different at a state school, where kids are
| marking time until the job market. This was a private
| school in a small town upstate. Kids had a sense of
| purpose.
| JohnFen wrote:
| The university my kids went to was very much like this,
| but it's a state school. It is, however, run very much
| like a private school in that it can make its own
| decisions and it is allowed to charge a lot more in
| tuition.
| vkou wrote:
| Which is insane to me. If a student wants to save money and
| live with their parents, or independently, that should be
| their prerogative.
| NoNotTheDuo wrote:
| If you think that all of the freshman that lived in the
| dorms went to every class, much less showed up on time for
| every class, I've got some beachfront property in Arizona
| to sell you...
| JohnFen wrote:
| Where did I say I thought that?
|
| Although most do, because of the supervision. The "party
| problem" doesn't really start until sophomore year.
| Unless you're in a frat or sorority. Those count as
| "dorms" for the requirement, and are notorious.
| eitally wrote:
| Are you talking about a specific school, because there is
| almost 0 supervision (I would call what dorm RAs do as
| more "emergency oversight") and freshman absolutely party
| the same as upperclassmen & women. Also, you should know
| that many colleges & universities apply far greater
| oversight to frats & sororities these days than genpop,
| and many are dry.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Yes, I was specifically talking about the university my
| children went to, because it's the only one I know
| anything about.
|
| > because there is almost 0 supervision (I would call
| what dorm RAs do as more "emergency oversight") and
| freshman absolutely party the same as upperclassmen &
| women.
|
| I know that there are schools where this is true. But I
| also know there is at least one school where this is
| certainly not true.
| SECProto wrote:
| > Where did I say I thought that?
|
| It was in the comment you replied to, you only explicitly
| addressed the first part, but implicitly agreed with the
| latter as well:
|
| > how many 19-year-olds do you know who want to live in a
| dorm setting and show up on time?
| bb611 wrote:
| Absolutely not "all", a massive amount of management (non-
| commission and commissioned officer) time is spent policing
| the behavior of 18-22 year olds, frequently including dealing
| with their criminal behavior both in and outside of the
| military. In 2021, the latest year DoD has reported, 2.6% of
| active duty military were kicked out of the military for
| either failing to do their jobs or criminal behavior.^1 In
| 2020, it was nearly 3.1%.^2
|
| This is the small fraction of people who were even willing to
| volunteer for the military, and then completed a
| significantly more strenuous recruiting process than nearly
| any private sector job. Having a sucky life in return for
| learning job skills isn't worth it to most Americans of any
| age!
|
| Also note all branches are having trouble recruiting the last
| several years, to the tune of 25-30,000 recruits short this
| year. Again, most people do not want to do this!
|
| 1. https://download.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2
| 02... pg 50 shows active duty separations by type, I refer to
| Military Requirement/Behavior/Performance and Legal
| Issues/Standards of Conduct.
|
| 2. https://download.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2
| 02... Similar to above, pg 46
| presidentender wrote:
| Is everyone suited for military service?
| mistrial9 wrote:
| if everyone is expected to do it, then the character of the
| program changes.. I am guessing at that since many ordinary
| countries have mandatory government service. I doubt that
| everyone there is subjected to classical troops psychology
| training, which is not for everyone.
| poopbutt7 wrote:
| No, some people are not suited for military service.
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| and no one in the military enjoys that.
|
| plus we got drunk as hell all the time, even with clearances.
| even in iraq a couple of times.
|
| showing up to formation hammered and doing some sloppy PT was
| like a right of passage.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| > showing up
|
| In a less rigorous setting like one implied by jobcorps,
| this would be much more _voluntary_. The peer culture in
| the military, combined with isolation and authoritarianism
| really does keep people in line, even if they screw up all
| the time along the way. Source: 5 military family members.
| cercatrova wrote:
| > _how many 19-year-olds do you know who want to live in a dorm
| setting and show up on time?_
|
| Most college kids? Even the no-drinking part these days
| comprises many college students, the number of young people who
| don't drink is rising.
| OkayPhysicist wrote:
| 50% of under-21 college students engage in _underage_
| drinking. The number for of-age students is even higher. 44%
| use cannabis. We can safely say that those two groups overlap
| significantly, but barring people who consume either
| dramatically cuts back on your potential pool.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| _> How many 22-year-olds want to go months without drinking?_
|
| By the time I was 22, it had been 4 years.
|
| Just sayin'...
|
| But I suspect it's nothing, compared to army life.
| gowld wrote:
| Yeah, national service without the violence is a nice option
| to have.
|
| Some say that's what started the end of the Great Depression,
| but the government lacked the confidence to fully invest
| until they got a violent war for justification.
| vkou wrote:
| Not sure why this is such an unpopular opinion. There's no
| shortage of public work that needs to be done, there's no
| shortage of people[1] who want to do work, why not a
| national service that actually improves lives?
|
| [1] Well, okay, at this _precise_ moment, unemployment is
| at historic lows, but that hasn 't always been the case,
| and won't always be the case.
| drc500free wrote:
| I think pretty much all public works projects are now
| viewed as "political," while military service is not. So
| we send the military in to do non-violent work. It's
| considered totally normal that a lot of domestic, civil
| projects are handled by the Army Corps of Engineers.
| nomat wrote:
| The values system we have is very different compared to
| the 30s or 40s or even the 60s. The idea of a society
| where we all contribute and all benefit is dead and gone.
| The media has given up all pretense of caring and now
| preaches consumerism over god and country. Compromise is
| a sign of weakness. As is empathy for fellow citizens. In
| short, a big enough percentage of the people today don't
| want to improve the lives of their fellow americans, and
| they elect politicians to actively make this place worse.
|
| Many of our "intractable" issues are policy issues and
| are completely fixable within 1 or 2 generations and
| honestly have always been fixable.
| schultzie wrote:
| My brother went through the job corp program in the mid aughts
| outside of Portland, Oregon.
|
| It was a great experience for him. He struggled throughout
| school[0], so at the beginning of his high school "career" he
| dropped out in favor of job corps. As a double-whammy, he's
| autistic. The structure of expectations and responsibilities that
| each individual had to handle every day worked great for him.
|
| Ultimately he didn't enter the career field he chose for job
| corps, but it did set him up for success later. Inevitably he
| ends up in leadership positions at places he works.
|
| He also got his high school diploma through the program.
|
| [0] Generally because he didn't fit in socially, and teachers
| treated him differently. He's very smart, but historically had a
| difficult time applying himself.
| amerine wrote:
| My middle sister sounds a lot like your brother and did the
| same! She was in the corps from '05 to '08. Got a HS diploma
| and she reflects back on her time very very fondly.
|
| Edit: also from the Oregon area.
| schultzie wrote:
| I bet they met each other at some point! That was when he was
| there. Springdale Job Corps, then?
|
| He also looks back on it fondly, and fairly commonly throws
| out new experiences he got while he was there. Recently he
| revealed he used to volunteer at the Troutdale Library
| because there was a van that could take them from Springdale
| over there!
| amerine wrote:
| Yea!! I'm curious if he met a blonde peer named Andrea?
| Probably same age as him.
| rbanffy wrote:
| This is surprising considering it's in the US. Would be worth
| studying how it happened and how it managed to survive so many
| republican presidents.
| borh375 wrote:
| Doesn't surprise me. Not sure what stereotypical Republican you
| have in your mind, but I'd assume it's the kids that hate
| government assistance like food stamps.
|
| They hate government programs that promote lifelong government
| assistance and discourage work for those they think shouldn't
| need it.
|
| This government program is literally the opposite long term
| goal: it encourages work, and hopes to reduce government
| assistance after this one-time program is finished.
| [deleted]
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| You can try and further an ideological religion all you like,
| but I am family friends with a job corp director in a deep red
| state, they get everything they ask for from their state
| legislature.
| ngai_aku wrote:
| ... they're not wrong though? Someone here [1] already linked
| to a WaPo article talking about Trumps efforts to kill it
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37167202
| plagiarist wrote:
| Sometimes people write stuff like "ideological religion"
| about people who notice every single Repub voting against
| every infrastructure bill. Sometimes it turns out those same
| people disbelieve in vaccines and climate change, love the
| new X, and so on. It seems much more appropriate as a
| confession instead of an accusation.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| Next time you can save a lot of words by just writing "no,
| u".
|
| I'm not sure you know anything about me, but I sure
| appreciate the ad hominem accusation of being antivax and a
| climate change denier. Classy stuff there.
| rqtwteye wrote:
| In the US it's really important to separate rhetoric from
| what politicians really do. Unfortunately not many people do
| this and media mostly is about "he said/she said" without
| looking at substance.
| tomrod wrote:
| ROI, certainly.
|
| EDIT: seems like for older individuals it results in positive
| returns (I only glanced over the abstract):
| https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/29730155.pdf
| rbanffy wrote:
| > ROI, certainly.
|
| I wouldn't imagine it's a high priority.
| tomrod wrote:
| It seems to be for most Republicans (cf. Reagan, `starve
| the beast`), and while I think Republican policy proposals
| tend to be malicious and ideological, I also value
| beneficial program objectives being efficiently met for the
| tax dollars I pay.
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| "Starve the Beast" wasn't about efficiency. It was about
| reducing revenue without even bothering to think through
| to deal with that on the spending end. It was the
| governmental equivalent of a parent quitting their job
| because "we spend too much." Heck, that was the exact
| metaphor Reagan used in the debates (except he made it
| about a kid's allowance). It made very little sense on
| the surface, and that was because the motivation was
| focused almost entirely on reducing the tax rates for the
| wealthy.
|
| They offered a bunch of insane justifications, including
| the famous "voodoo" "trickle-down economics" idea that if
| you cut taxes for the wealthy enough, they'd use the
| money to boost the economy, thereby raising tax revenue,
| so everybody would win. Absolute bullshit, but it's been
| seriously spoken of for decades like it's an actual thing
| with some sort of economic or mathematical backing.
| rqtwteye wrote:
| "Starve the beast" really means to reduce income while
| not reducing spending. The goal is to pile up so much
| debt that future generations will have no other choice
| than to reduce government. Evidence is that every
| republican president since Reagan has implemented big tax
| cuts while at the same increasing spending (mostly
| defense) and deficits. They never bothered to reduce
| spending or increasing government efficiency in any
| meaningful way.
| tomrod wrote:
| Correct, because it's an article of faith that government
| must be inefficient among a multitude of other service
| providers.
| thegaulofthem wrote:
| If anything I'm sure Republicans would rather we require
| welfare recipients to undertake a boot camp program to force
| them into the labor force. This seems right up the alley.
| JohnFen wrote:
| IIRC, it was started as part of the large antipoverty efforts
| that began in the '60s. It was specifically meant to help
| reduce the rate of unemployment in young people.
|
| It was basically the modern (at the time) version of a similar
| program used to help recover from the great depression.
|
| Politically, it meshes well with the ideals of both the right
| and the left[1], which I think is why it remains largely
| considered a good thing regardless of your political bent.
|
| [1] Americans tend to forget, especially lately, that the right
| and the left agree on far more things than they disagree on.
| PeterCorless wrote:
| Exactly. It was meant to get young men and women through a
| high school diploma or GED, to get them vocational training,
| and to give them life skills needed to be independent.
|
| It was an alternative to pure-play unemployment or welfare.
|
| 2024 will be the 60th Anniversary of the program.
|
| https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/2014/09/26/usda-
| marks-50th-a...
| worldsoup wrote:
| My grandfather was an academic who studied 'socially alienated
| adolescents' and was the original director of this program when
| it was developed back in the 60's. This is one of his original
| lectures on the social dynamics that drove the program:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPwV8miW46I&ab_channel=Natio...
| herpderperator wrote:
| It's refreshing to see that the website has a bunch of tiny CSS
| stylesheets in the source rather than a bundled mess that is
| frontend these days. There are also a bunch of JS scripts at the
| bottom. It's been so long since I've seen modern sites have
| those. (Seems like they used Drupal as per the generator name.)
| courseofaction wrote:
| Blocked from Australia?
| simlevesque wrote:
| Canada too.
| psKama wrote:
| Outside of the USA, apparently.
| [deleted]
| indigo945 wrote:
| Also from Germany, so it's probably just blocked everywhere but
| in the US. You can access it via the Internet Archive [1].
|
| [1]:
| https://web.archive.org/web/20230817190924/https://www.jobco...
| ryandrake wrote:
| Weird that they'd go through all the trouble to block the web
| site to visitors outside of the USA. It's not like it
| contains NSA secrets or the USA's Canada-invasion plan.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| I mean, people trying to defraud welfare/benefits from
| abroad is unfortunately not uncommon.
| sneak wrote:
| I'm a US citizen and taxpayer in a non-US country who has
| no intention of using this program or interfacing with it
| in any way but still would like to read the FAQ and see
| what my tax money is being used for.
|
| Geographical censorship is bad.
| pierat wrote:
| Ah yes, that program. I tried to get in, but _my parents_ made
| too much, so I didn 't qualify.
|
| Did they share their significant income with me? Hah NO. Did they
| contribute to any college? $2000. Oh wait, that was from my
| grandpa's will.
|
| My income was like $15000/yr, from working at a Subway. Real big
| wage earner. But nope, my worthless parents made bank so I didn't
| get any help to succeed.
|
| Fuck the whole "well your parents are rich so you also must be".
| IronWolve wrote:
| This is also an issue for student loans...
| johnea wrote:
| Too bad it's only available to 16-24 year olds...
| battery_glasses wrote:
| Agreed. If they had this mixed with some sort of inpatient
| rehab I could see it offering a lot of hope to some really in-
| need people.
| rbanffy wrote:
| > If they had this mixed with some sort of inpatient rehab
|
| That could be a somewhat different program, as rehab patients
| have very different requirements.
| rbanffy wrote:
| I wonder how much would it cost to make it universal
| JohnFen wrote:
| I hear you, but it's probably a good thing. I've noticed that
| the more targeted a program is, the better it tends to be. I've
| seen many programs get ruined for everybody by trying to do too
| much.
| m3t4man wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_Corps
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| [flagged]
| dnadler wrote:
| I have to say, the "What is Job Corp?" page does not directly
| answer the question at all. It sounds like some kind of school?
|
| Do students pay tuition? Is it free? What do they learn? How long
| does it take? Where is it?
| mike_d wrote:
| It is a US government program that provides housing, food, and
| an allowance to people 18-25 that are willing to attend a
| JobCorps trade school.
|
| Basically an alternative to joining the military if you are
| disadvantaged and want to learn a skill and build a career.
| alaskamiller wrote:
| The website reads fine, there's even three FAQs to answer your
| questions at the bottom of the page you referenced.
|
| Job Corps is a training program for 16-24 year olds as an
| alternative or supplement to high school or college. Your first
| touch to this would typically be your high school guidance
| counselor. Your second touch might be your community college
| counselor. Your other pathway might be through your parole
| officer.
|
| It's free. It's listed multiple times on the website.
|
| They learn welding, manufacturing, automative tech,
| construction, hospitality, healthcare, and the best one is
| probably forestry. It's listed multiple places on the website.
|
| How long is typically 1 to 3 year stints.
|
| Job Corps centers are located in almost every major city in
| almost every state. It's a government program since the 1960's.
| There's an entire program finder on the website.
| dnadler wrote:
| Thanks for the information. It sounds like an interesting
| program. The FAQ you mention does do a good job of answering
| these questions. I wish that was more front and center
| instead of at the very bottom of the footer.
|
| My comment was more about the fact that the "What Is Job
| Corps" page is very much a marketing page, and I think it
| leans too heavily in that direction. I bounced off it pretty
| hard because it's quite busy and clearly trying to sell me
| something. That's a red flag for me when I'm looking at
| education programs.
|
| I had to do a triple take to make sure this was actually a
| federal program and not a scam.
| ry4nolson wrote:
| you didn't see the .gov in the domain name?
| dnadler wrote:
| I did -- that'a ultimately why I decided it was legit.
| LesZedCB wrote:
| can scams even get .gov tlds?
| petsfed wrote:
| >Job Corps centers are located in almost every major city in
| almost every state.
|
| This seems pretty far off the mark. Using their program
| finder, I find (for instance) that the only one in Colorado
| is in Colbran. As a Colorado native, I expected that the one
| in Colorado would at least be in a town I had _heard of_.
|
| They are in some kind of surprising places. There's not
| really one in the Seattle metro area, for instance. But there
| are 2 a piece in Hawaii and Puerto Rico.
|
| I wonder if the weird locations are entirely down to real
| estate, or if there's a local demographic question or even a
| correlation between remoteness of location and success rate.
| pkaye wrote:
| Its basically vocational training. It doesn't cost anything.
| Must be 16-24 and meet low income criteria. Its been around
| since 1964.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_Corps
| PeterCorless wrote:
| The program is not only entirely free, it can actually pay the
| students (this was 2011; YMMV):
|
| Job Corps Living Allowance and Transition Payment
|
| The living allowance (i.e., pay) is based on stay duration
| (e.g., up to 56 days is $25/pay period or two weeks, 57-112
| days is $30/pay period, 113-182 is $40/pay period and 183+ days
| at $50/pay period).
|
| A transition payment occurs when the student successfully
| completes a High School Diploma/GED and/or a career and
| technical certificate. Students receive $250 for HSD/GED, $750
| for CTE or $1,200 for completing both.
|
| Source:
|
| https://www.mtctrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Job-Cor...
| [deleted]
| jetbalsa wrote:
| I attended this program about 10 years ago. To answer your
| questions, It is a school, they pay the student a stipend and
| lots of other benefits. the courses are mostly "blue collar"
| related job training. So thing like Welding, Brick Laying,
| Computer Repair. You will find most of their courses are
| targeting job sectors that are in need of people. they also
| house you for the entire time and is a rather good program to
| get into.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Do you know if they have any partnership or work with foster
| homes to give foster kids a solid path into adulthood?
| thecyborganizer wrote:
| I don't know if they have explicit partnerships, but it's
| certainly a program that case workers in the foster care
| system are aware of. My foster daughter's case worker
| explored it with her as one of a range of options after
| high school. (She ended up just getting a regular job
| instead.)
|
| I'd be really curious to know how it works out for former
| foster youth who try it. On the one hand I can imagine the
| structure and support to be really valuable to kids who
| have been in the foster care system. On the other hand
| foster youth often benefit most from systems that can give
| them lots of second chances and can work with them to meet
| their individual needs, and I don't know if that's
| something Job Corps can offer.
| jetbalsa wrote:
| So once you join you are housed in a dorm on campus. Once
| you start to leave they will help you find a job, a home
| and give you starting money. You will not leave the campus
| until all of this is done. Once you are out on your own,
| You can rejoin Job Corps if you are still under aged and do
| a different program and get all the same benefits
| Jemm wrote:
| Computer repair is now considered a blue collar job?
| throwawaysleep wrote:
| I would certainly consider Geek Squad blue collar type
| work.
| jameson71 wrote:
| Between this and CNC it is amazing how highly technical
| and how high the education requirements can be for "blue
| collar" work
| JohnFen wrote:
| Indeed! Have you look at what's needed to be good at car
| repair lately?
|
| Most blue collar work has always been technical and
| required a fairly high level of education. The
| educational path has historically been different
| (apprenticeships, trade schools, etc), but no less
| rigorous.
| datavirtue wrote:
| You can scratch by, get your certs, and stand by a
| machine for ten hours a day, six days a week. Or you can
| really apply yourself and focus on attaining SOME
| engineering-level skills and end up indespensible
| (usually given a part and asked to make it by coming up
| with a program, as opposed to working from print or
| existing process). You can be a glorified monkey or you
| can make yourself into an engineer. Up to you.
| datavirtue wrote:
| Yep. On top of that you better be fast and generally
| mistake-free or you will be broke. Oh yeah, don't rock
| the boat either. You have to accept the level of personal
| safety (gear/practices) that everyone else has accepted--
| or you are out the door.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I've always thought of it as such... but it probably falls
| into that borderline between the two.
| datavirtue wrote:
| Definitely. Just like car repair that requires A LOT more
| training.
| unglaublich wrote:
| https://web.archive.org/web/20230817190924/https://www.jobco...
| atentaten wrote:
| I had a friend that did this in the mid 90s to finish up high
| school. I think it was a good experience for him.
| iandanforth wrote:
| Strangely this website is blocked from Canada.
|
| "The Amazon CloudFront distribution is configured to block access
| from your country."
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| same, no luck here.
| hackernewds wrote:
| why would it be necessary in Canada?
| klyrs wrote:
| Because Americans are permitted to travel to Canada
| mattw2121 wrote:
| [flagged]
| t3rabytes wrote:
| It's not new -- it's been around for a long time, since the
| late 60s maybe?
| lizardking wrote:
| It's been around for quite awhile. I had a friend that went out
| of high school in the early 2000s.
| JohnFen wrote:
| The government has been running it since 1962. If they were
| going to screw it up, they would have done so already.
| markdown wrote:
| Why are Americans like this? I don't think there's another
| first world country with citizens who have as dim a view of
| government.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Everyone is an unrecognized genius or temporarily at ends
| millionaire. So it's easy to be dismissive of anything and it
| makes certain personalities feel smart and better about
| themselves.
| dontknowwhyihn wrote:
| Have you not noticed the complete disregard the United States
| has for its citizens?
| rbanffy wrote:
| And some people still vote republican, despite a
| consistently worse record on caring for citizens.
| throwawa14223 wrote:
| The republicans aren't perfect, but they're more
| effectively hamstringing the government than anyone else.
| sharemywin wrote:
| When you give people enough extra money to buy elections
| that's what they do.
| nerdchum wrote:
| Confidence in Americans institutions. is at an all-time low.
|
| The America of today is like a literal different country
| compared to the America of 1960's and before.
|
| Its becoming a very low quality of life place for the average
| America teetering towards 3rd world levels of inequality with
| minimal social safety nets.
|
| If you call Britain first world country, they're way worse
| than America.
|
| https://news.gallup.com/poll/394283/confidence-
| institutions-...
|
| another interesting collection of data:
| https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
| JohnFen wrote:
| Not all are, but there has always been a vocal subculture
| like this.
| giovannibonetti wrote:
| For those outside the US having their access blocked:
|
| https://archive.is/5tnbW
| [deleted]
| serhack_ wrote:
| Thanks Giovanni!
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| ramijames wrote:
| Didn't Trump kill this?
|
| I went through job corps as a teen. I was going through a rough
| time and they set me on a better path.
| mikeyouse wrote:
| They tried to - announced it publicly but were met with broad
| bipartisan opposition so they said they were going to privatize
| the program instead, which was also met with bipartisan
| opposition, so I think they just gave up in the end and left it
| alone.
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-administration...
| [deleted]
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