[HN Gopher] DIY Espresso (2020)
___________________________________________________________________
DIY Espresso (2020)
Author : timvdalen
Score : 235 points
Date : 2023-08-17 07:21 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.fourbardesign.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.fourbardesign.com)
| seemaze wrote:
| Nothing has brought this guilty pragmatist as much joy-per-
| disposable-dollar as my offensively priced espresso machine.
| sva_ wrote:
| You can get a delonghi dedica ec685 for around 150 euro, 100 on
| sale, which can be modded to make very good espresso. Cool
| project though.
| andai wrote:
| How in depth are the modifications?
| myspy wrote:
| The point where everything has to come together for me is a
| setup for Cappuccinos where I can make 4 in a row without much
| hassle and great quality.
| propter_hoc wrote:
| You would need a dual boiler for this. IMO the best value
| dual boiler on the market is the Breville dual boiler.
|
| Alternatively there are standalone milk frothing devices that
| might suit your needs while allowing you to buy a cheaper
| espresso machine.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| A single boiler/dual circuit design also works well for
| cappucinos. They are cheaper than dual boilers and heat up
| quicker.
|
| The tradeoff is less consistent temperature from shot to
| shot, but if you are diluting your coffee with milk
| anyway...
| pier25 wrote:
| Hx machines are also fine.
| pier25 wrote:
| Single boiler machines are a pain if you want to more than 1
| espresso drink with milk.
| killerstorm wrote:
| Does espresso actually taste better than what you get out of
| Aeropress or pourover?
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| It can extract more flavor. The most fruity and sweet brews
| I've ever had were good espresso shots. The same beans in a
| pour over are still fantastic, but it's all amplified and more
| pronounced when made as an espresso shot. There's also a syrupy
| texture that you really can't get with any other brewing
| method.
|
| All that said, every day I drink pour overs and aeropress brews
| --I don't want to drop the $1k+ on a proper home espresso
| setup.
| arsome wrote:
| Exactly - espresso is good, but unless you're really into it,
| not worth the money and complexity to make at home, save it
| for a treat when you're out.
| dboreham wrote:
| Yes
| orangepurple wrote:
| It is not comparable. The beverage is quite different. So many
| people have had badly made espressos in the past they may think
| they don't like or care for it. Properly made espresso brings
| out flavors and smells which are not extractable with the
| Aeropress. The extreme case is the extraction of fruity flavors
| from a specific class of light roasts. You can not do it with
| Aeropress. I have a manually operated press as my espresso
| maker (Espresso Forge) and I only use Aeropress while
| traveling.
| neogodless wrote:
| It's a much richer coffee; feels more substantial in your
| mouth.
| jebarker wrote:
| I think so. My daily driver for coffee is a Chemex since I can
| make enough for two in about 5 mins. I use reasonably fresh
| roasted beans I grind right before making the coffee. But
| whenever I get a good espresso based drink I recognize the step
| up in quality.
| dm270 wrote:
| That is completely up to your personal taste. I personally like
| both. Sometimes it's nice having an espresso in the sun. Other
| times I prefer taking fifteen minutes for a nice hot pourover
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| Different. It's just a different way to enjoy coffee that is
| dramatically more creamy and dominated by different flavors
| extracted.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| It's a different beverage. That may sound precious or twee to
| you but the flavors of the same beans prepared in these three
| ways will be different; there's no other way to describe it.
|
| Espresso is going to be more intense, probably sweeter, and
| stronger.
|
| Pourover is typically brighter and less intense, but obviously
| you drink more of it. When I make filter coffee, I prefer
| pourover.
|
| I do not care for Aeropress coffee or its sibling French press;
| for me, the mouth feel and flavor are inferior to other brewing
| methods, but obviously this is a preference thing.
| dghughes wrote:
| French press does allow caffenol (I think it is?) to be in
| the coffee it makes for a silky mouthfeel like someone put
| glycerine in it.
|
| French press as pure and basic as you can get coarse ground
| coffee a bit of water wait 5 minutes and pour.
|
| But yes it all depends on your taste and what you like.
| slotrans wrote:
| Impressive that this works. It's so small!
|
| Also: absolute endorsement for anything and everything James
| Hoffmann
| jppope wrote:
| I'm actually totally fine with the moka pot, but can't seem to
| figure out a way to properly froth + heat milk... any
| suggestions?
| llbeansandrice wrote:
| I'm a big fan of using a glass french press. Put the milk in
| and heat it in the microwave (takes some fiddling and a
| thermometer but once you have a recipe down for you it works
| great) and then using a technique like this to froth the milk
| [0]
|
| [0] https://youtu.be/ZgIVfU0xBjA?t=641
| demondemidi wrote:
| https://bellmanespresso.com/products/bellman-stovetop-steame...
| roflyear wrote:
| maybe not "properly" but you can use a frenchpress.
| https://coffeeatthree.com/froth-milk-french-press/
| jcfrei wrote:
| So which espresso making device does HN prefer? I've bought
| myself a Kamira but looking to try out others as well.
| exitb wrote:
| In that segment, Flair is the right answer. It's simple,
| durable and capable of delivering 100% real espresso, on par
| with high end machines. It's also not weird, you can actually
| use it every day and prep the drink in just a few minutes.
|
| Also note that Flair 58 is compatible with regular-sized
| generic espresso accessories.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| I just plugged their new $99 model above. It's a great way to
| get started on home expresso and honestly will never need
| upgrading for 99% of people.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| Think about budget and if your budget is high enough, if you
| make several milk drinks back to back and need more than a
| single boiler machine. At different price points, I'd look at
| Gaggia classic pro, profitec go, profitec pro 300. You'll also
| have to budget for a proper espresso grinder. Check out
| https://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/ for the best prices on
| grinders.
|
| The Kamira appears to be a moka pot, not an espresso machine.
| pivo wrote:
| I've used, but don't currently own, a Cafelat Robot
| (https://prima-coffee.com/equipment/cafelat/robot-barista-
| gre...)
|
| The Robot made great espresso, and I was just about to buy one
| for myself but then the Meticulous Espresso machine
| (https://meticuloushome.com/) was announced on kickstarter and
| I splurged on that instead (deliver by end of year, or so they
| say.)
|
| If for some reason that doesn't work out, I'll get the robot
| Gerard0 wrote:
| Can't wait for it. It is looking good! Would be surprised if
| it doesn't work.
| JonChesterfield wrote:
| Jura E8 here. Single button cappuccino box, competently
| engineered. Milk goes through a small subset of the machine
| which disassembles easily and there's a cleaning tablet option
| for not taking it apart. I think it could be wifi attached and
| persuaded to make one as an alarm clock but that's more bother
| than I've gone to.
|
| That one optimises for minimum hassle per cup of coffee at the
| expense of up front and running costs. No regrets.
| SimianLogic wrote:
| I started with a handpresso.
|
| I've had a ROK manual for 10 years and have given several as
| gifts. Upgraded/replaced most of the parts outside the frame.
|
| I had a part break earlier this year and they sent me new ones
| for free.
| simonsarris wrote:
| At home I use a Bialetti Venus (moka pot), which makes a
| pseudo-espresso (longer, with poor crema). Nonetheless I prize
| this and look forward to it each day. It's about $40.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| Flair, or Gaggia Classic for those who are DIY
| seanhunter wrote:
| Firstly I would say that the grinder makes an outsize
| difference relative to cost so I would strongly recommend you
| first invest in something like a Mahlkohning Vario (this is
| what I have as a present from my lovely wife who just by pure
| coincidence also likes nice coffee).
|
| Then I have a friend who is an ex-high-end-barista and gigantic
| coffee snob (like coffee snob's coffee snob) and insists that
| once you have a good grinder it's more important to get a
| reverse osmosis filter than a high-end espresso machine. Make
| of that what you will, but if you want to investigate that he
| swears by this book[1] and having drunk coffee at Colonna and
| Smalls in Bath (owned by one of the guys who wrote the book) I
| can say he might be on to something. Certainly every cafe that
| does amazing coffee has an RO filter.
|
| I have an ECM entry-level machine and it's great. I dont' need
| (or ever use) the frothing parts unless we have guests but they
| do the thing they are supposed to and the main coffee bit works
| great. I wish it could get a bit more pressure but it makes a
| good cup of espresso if I tamp well and use nice beans (which,
| you should always use nice beans. There's really no excuse for
| that one).
|
| In the UK you can get great home coffee equipment as well as
| advice from Bella Barista[2]. Probably most countries have a
| place like that but even if you're not in the UK I would look
| at what they have as being a good starting point.
|
| [1] https://www.waterstones.com/book/water-for-coffee/maxwell-
| co...
|
| [2] https://bellabarista.co.uk/
| matwood wrote:
| I would agree with your friend. I typically do pour over, and
| getting a nice grinder was a huge upgrade for the coffee
| flavor. I also only use filtered water. Next is fresher
| beans.
|
| Frowned upon I'm sure, but for espresso a machine like
| Nespresso or L'Or has worked fine in a pinch.
| MarkMarine wrote:
| I'll check out the book but while I wait for shipping, could
| you share what you do with the RO water? Do you put your own
| mineral and salt profile into it, or just use it as pure H2O?
| I have an RO filter and build my own water profile for my
| homebrew beer, hadn't started down that road for coffee yet.
| LesZedCB wrote:
| https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/barista-hustle-water-
| reci...
| seanhunter wrote:
| I don't do anything - I just have a regular filter but my
| understanding is that the people who do this do certain
| black magic which somewhat depends on the
| "hardness/softness" and ph of the water as well as other
| stuff but it's all in that book apparently. I don't know
| the details.
|
| Edit to add: Actually I just found this resource which you
| might find helpful
| https://dailycoffeenews.com/2018/08/15/a-practical-water-
| gui...
| MarkMarine wrote:
| I went down the rabbit hole trying to learn about this,
| and it's actually pretty easy to replicate the
| recommended water. Home brewing (beer) water is far more
| complex than this.
|
| I'm going to brew some with this profile and see if I can
| taste the change, and if not I'm just sticking with my
| filtered tap water because it's honestly pretty darn
| close. Just needs the chloramine taken out.
| mustacheemperor wrote:
| >wait for shipping
|
| Assuming you mean the "notify when back in stock" on that
| website, unfortunately the book is now out of print.
|
| If anyone else has an alternative source for it, I would be
| interested in reading it, and it seems like it would make a
| great gift for my coffee-geek friends.
| drittich wrote:
| I have a Mazzer Mini grinder that's pretty old and I suspect
| it is the weak link in the chain (paired with Rocket espresso
| machine). Is there an easy way to tell if the grinder is
| doing its job well, e.g., some reliable way to examine the
| grain size?
| MarkMarine wrote:
| For me the grinder allows repeatability. I was trying to
| dial in shots with the grinder on my breville and was
| quickly frustrated. I could do everything else the same and
| get very different extraction times for the same volume of
| espresso, I ran 5 lbs of coffee through it in a row with my
| laptop and a spreadsheet tracking things trying to get
| consistent times, and it just wouldn't be consistent.
|
| I bought a HG-1, probably overkill, but now my mid-range
| breville puts out coffee that is way way better than most
| cafes, and it's dead consistent. I have to adjust a little
| as my fresh coffee adapts to the world once the bag is
| open, but that's it.
|
| I'm sure you could find calibrated screens for espresso
| somewhere, but my bet is they would cost more than a new
| grinder. If it's consistent, tastes good, and you have fine
| enough settings to adjust your extraction, I'd say it's
| good.
| drittich wrote:
| I do think it's pretty consistent in extraction times. I
| probably just need to clean it :)
| SergeAx wrote:
| Nespresso classic with Illy capsules.
| demondemidi wrote:
| anything with an e61 group-head and a double boiler. pid
| controlled heat exchanger will work but can be challenging if
| you really get into it.
| fellowmartian wrote:
| Breville Infuser or Bambino Plus for people who don't want to
| DIY nor break the bank.
| roflyear wrote:
| Personally, an LP or any Flair product. But the grinder is
| absolutely more important than the espresso machine.
| TomMasz wrote:
| Making espresso at home is one of those things that seems to lead
| directly to obsession. Keep that in mind should you decide to
| start.
| iscrewyou wrote:
| Yupp! It's very tempting to try to make this a hobby and then
| try to perfect it. But coffee is one thing that allows me to
| force myself out of the house and experience the community
| around me. It's a $4 excuse but it's a good reason to not be
| lazy about leaving the house.
| eur0pa wrote:
| I find it somewhat cute that according to this article, $500 is
| "grows on trees" kind of money. In the espresso hobby, $500 is
| barely enough to get a decent grinder.
| fellowmartian wrote:
| DF64 is $350. Haven't tried it myself (I have a Sette), but if
| I was buying now I'd go for DF64, flat burr is nice.
| ctroein89 wrote:
| I love my DF64. I found it on sale, and informed my wife that
| it'd be her Christmas and birthday present to me: totally
| worth it. Even with a $100 DeLonghi EC155, the difference
| from the grinder is incredible.
| njovin wrote:
| For anyone who is discouraged by this (accurate) comment, don't
| discount the utility of a manual grinder. You can get a
| 1Zpresso which is a beautiful, durable piece of equipment for a
| fraction of the cost of an automatic grinder and it takes all
| of 30 seconds to grind your own beans to perfection.
| flyingshoes wrote:
| The KINGrinder KX is a cheaper alternative to the 1Zpresso
| line.
|
| But yeah, definitely don't discount manual grinders. But note
| grinding for espresso with a handgrinder is... an exercise.
| lol.
| demondemidi wrote:
| Seriously.
|
| Although I would like to discourage anyone from getting a
| Eureka (Silenzio). grind retention is insane on those, and the
| higher priced models are the same flawed grinder with more LCD
| screens.
| ruph123 wrote:
| It is so interesting to me how the marketing of flair and ROK
| (but mostly flair) drive the amount of coverage they get online
| in terms of reviews and discussions whereas the Cafelat gets
| almost nothing. It sure has flaws (the lever hands and the
| awkwardly positioned pressure gauge) but not needing to preheat
| the brew chamber is such a big win, it is clearly the better
| product.
|
| To this day James Hoffman has only one crappy video about the
| Cafelat, which is not even a polished review and rather a first
| look. But he has a few highly polished flair videos and discusses
| their ridiculous electricly preheated pro versions to death.
| (Without ever really seriously comparing it against the Cafelat)
| everybodyknows wrote:
| Ships from the UK:
|
| https://www.cafelat.co.uk/
| romafirst3 wrote:
| Hoffman is a joke and is not respected by anyone in the
| coffee industry, he's a pretentious twat and exactly the
| opposite of what coffee needs. Most content you see online is
| pay-to-play so if you spend more money you get more content.
| brailsafe wrote:
| Low-quality comment. Hoffman's responsible for opening up
| the world of coffee brewing to many more people than might
| have otherwise explored it, along with other content
| creators in the space who do the same, and his content is
| enjoyable to many regardless of what randos think.
| roflyear wrote:
| I mean this is absolutely not true.
| ruph123 wrote:
| Who is respected in the coffee industry? I like his often
| scientific approach to coffee, diving into the data,
| papers, etc. He is very methological.
| romafirst3 wrote:
| Anette Moldvaer who founded Square Mile with him (I think
| they were a couple) is the coffee person behind it. She
| is the roaster and coffee person, he is the
| frontman/salesperson.
|
| Scientists have a hypothesis and then test that
| hypothesis, this isn't what he does. You want a
| scientific approach try these guys
| https://socraticcoffee.com/ they do a reasonably good
| job.
| Daishiman wrote:
| But that's what marketing and sales are for. The first result
| for the Cafelat on Google (at least to me) isn't even their own
| web page. It helps that the Flair is an excellent product too.
|
| This is what marketing, sales, and brand outreach do: they
| connect customers with products. People get sold Flairs, they
| like them, they tell others, people consume content for Flairs,
| Robots occupy the same niche and once you get a Flair you don't
| really have a reason to go with a Robot.
| dazhbog wrote:
| I've been buying cups of coffee on and off from coffee shops for
| years. Each cup was 2-4USD. Sometimes i also did pourovers but
| that shit took forever.
|
| Finally got a used Delongi bean to cup for less than $200 and my
| god what I've been missing. I also discovered that, for me,
| reducing the amount of water that passes through the coffee puck
| for each shot makes the coffee so creamy and less acidic.
| slothtrop wrote:
| > Sometimes i also did pourovers but that shit took forever.
|
| Really? I use the hario switch for my medium roasts and I brew
| 2 min tops, usually a hybrid immersion/pourover, but I can do
| just straight pourover in that time.
| z3dd wrote:
| Standard brewing/extraction time for V60/kalita/kemex is 3.5
| min plus about 1 min of preparation (which is still not a
| lot).
| koolba wrote:
| Which machine did you get?
| dazhbog wrote:
| Got a used Delonghi Magnifica Start
| baldeagle wrote:
| This is call a 'ristretto shot'. In some of the starbucks
| reserve locations you can get a large volume of ground coffee
| and a ristretto shot, and it is very creamy without as much
| acid/tannins.
|
| Also, the ristretto shot is often used in flat whites - one of
| the main differences (the other lesser one being milk texture)
| lock-the-spock wrote:
| Starbucks is rather bad coffee though, without all the syrups
| you will notice it more. Honestly I have a bean to cup
| (Krups, previously also had DeLonghi) and prefer to take a
| small thermos along for decent lukewarm coffee all day rather
| than to pay outrageous amounts for mediocre coffee and a
| throwaway cup. Living in Italy or Portugal I'd probably not
| need that as there is excellent espresso at every corner, but
| most other countries it's hit and miss and the Anglosphere
| generally just bad coffee.
| dboreham wrote:
| > Starbucks is rather bad coffee though
|
| Hmm. I roast my own beans and I feel like I know good
| coffee when I drink it.
|
| For me Starbucks (I've tested in US, UK, and Japan mainly)
| provides a) a reliably consistent quality that is b) about
| 80% of ideal.
|
| To me this is the killer feature of Starbucks, and it's why
| I'm a stockholder. When I buy coffee at non-Starbucks
| coffee shops, it's a total crap shoot what I get. Perhaps
| 10% of the time I get a stellar cup. But perhaps 40% of the
| time I get undrinkable crap.
|
| Starbucks solves this problem for me by giving me an
| experience where I have perhaps a 95% probability of
| getting a pretty decent cup of coffee.
|
| Disclosure: I drink mostly their Latte drinks with extra
| shots (depending on size and regional variations in base
| shot count).
| romafirst3 wrote:
| You clearly don't know good coffee when you drink it if
| you think Starbucks is 80% of ideal.
| dcuthbertson wrote:
| I tried Starbucks coffee a few times years ago in eastern
| Massachusetts and upstate New York. I don't understand
| how people can drink the stuff. To me, it tastes like hot
| water poured over charcoal. When they came out with the
| light roast, it just tasted like thinner charcoal.
| giantrobot wrote:
| This is where Starbucks shines and is impressive. Their
| coffee isn't all objectively bad and they have options
| for different tastes. But their best feature is
| consistency. If you like a particular bean/blend in a
| particular format it's going to be consistent at pretty
| much any Starbucks you go to.
|
| I've found Indy hipster coffee shops can rarely deliver a
| consistent cup at their single location on any two days.
| I don't know what I actually like from those places. Sure
| Monday's cup made by Alex in the morning was good but
| Sam's cup of the same roast on Wednesday was a waste of
| money.
|
| It's impressive that a chain with thousands of locations
| can provide such a consistent experience. It's definitely
| not as bad as most people claim provided you like a roast
| they sell.
| stephen_g wrote:
| Depends on the market. In Australia it's definitely the
| lower quality end of the market (however consistently),
| while at the same time your chance of getting a very good
| quality coffee at any nearby independent cafe is
| extremely high.
|
| Starbucks completely failed the first time they tried
| here, and are having a second shot (there must be at
| least a dozen stores in my 2.5M population city now).
| They seem to be relying mostly on fashion (seeing people
| with Starbucks cups in the media) - while I don't like to
| stereotype, there do seem to be fairly clear demographics
| of people I see in the one I go past a bit - apart from
| some that look like tourists, you mostly see the late
| teens to just below middle age female crowd and a few of
| their partners there.
| dghughes wrote:
| > To me this is the killer feature of Starbucks, and it's
| why I'm a stockholder.
|
| Well seeing you are a stockholder you may want to know my
| experience.
|
| I'd say Starbucks at least in my city in Canada has
| degraded mainly due to the talent or workload of its
| staff. They got too fancy and also try to make orders too
| fast. Getting it fast but junk is pointless. It seems to
| have started when mobile orders became a thing if I had
| to guess when it began.
|
| I used to like their flat white when they actually made
| it correctly. They used to bang the pitcher to get out
| the big bubbles, it had a nice uniform beige with a white
| dot of milk on the top. It had a nice astringent taste
| from the ristretto shot.
|
| Then the workers started (told to?) pouring milk ending
| with a leaf on the top for every cup. I felt like saying
| who cares or don't worry just pour it and move on to the
| next person. They don't seem to bang the pitcher to
| remove big bubbles. The look of it is mostly white not
| beige as if someone dropped their latte picked it up and
| gave it to you.
|
| What a mess! And it's 100% time. I ask for a flat white
| now and then but realize there no way they'll ever make
| it right again.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| Starbucks Reserve Roasteries !== Starbucks.
|
| The reserve locations are better seen as flashy
| celebrations of coffee and basically ignore the entire
| Starbucks Corporate supply chain, in that way they are: 1:
| Vastly better quality coffee with actual light roasts
| available. 2: Absolutely not Scalable.
|
| I'm not saying they aree somehow better than other high-end
| roasters but
| gattilorenz wrote:
| Can't speak for Portugal, but "decent espresso at every
| corner" in Italy is sort of a myth.
|
| There is _uniform_ espresso at every corner, with quite
| dark roasts that cover up potential differences in flavor
| for the beans /crops. That's a side effect of expecting
| coffee for ~1 Euro, regardless of quality: quality
| generally goes down. We Italians are used to that (you
| could say we don't know better), and dislike any variation
| from the norm, so that doesn't bother most people; in
| _actual_ coffee countries you have places that do care
| about coffee quality and experiment with single-origin,
| different roasts, etc. In Italy these places are a tiny
| minority, and for the rest is the same burnt expresso
| everywhere (and, if you 're unlucky, very acid).
|
| It might be different in big cities like Milan, but I doubt
| it.
| ics wrote:
| Pretty similar in Milan from what I could tell (traveled
| there frequently before the pandemic). Although there
| were a handful of coffee shops that seemed to be
| accepting a specialty coffee angle where for 5 euros you
| could get a distinctly non-Italian offering.
| mazugrin2 wrote:
| This is something I've always wondered about. I _loved_
| the coffee in Rome almost universally. Even in Madrid I
| enjoyed the coffee, although it was totally different
| than the stuff in Rome. I knew it wasn't the best beans.
| Sometimes it wouldn't even be freshly ground.
|
| However, in the US, even at the fanciest hipster coffee
| places, the espresso is incredibly bitter and
| astringent/acidic. Is that on purpose? Do Americans
| actually want their coffee to be super bitter and
| astringent/acidic? The other thing I've noticed is that
| in Rome and Madrid, most coffee drinkers are just
| drinking the coffee. But in the US it is rare to actually
| see someone drink a coffee without milk. So I just
| assumed that the reason for the bitterness and
| astringency was because the people making it never
| actually drank it as espresso.
|
| So - American espresso drinkers - tell me - do you
| actually prefer that super bitter taste of the thin
| espressos that you get at supposedly good coffee places
| like, e.g., Blue Bottle over the rich and frothy
| espressos of Rome?
| airstrike wrote:
| As a foreigner living in America, I hate the super bitter
| taste of the thin espressos in the places that are
| supposedly good. I've given up on buying coffee in most
| places, particularly since I tend to drink it black.
|
| Honestly even Nespresso is better than that shit. And
| Lavazza Blue pods are an order of magnitude better than
| Nespresso, so that's what I drink daily when I need a
| quick fix
| flyingshoes wrote:
| > the espresso is incredibly bitter and
| astringent/acidic. Is that on purpose? Do Americans
| actually want their coffee to be super bitter and
| astringent/acidic?
|
| Haha, yeah. The new "hipster" coffee I'd tend to say
| leans more on the side of expressing the acidity of the
| bean through light-roasts over the chocolate-y flavors
| from dark roasts.
|
| > But in the US it is rare to actually see someone drink
| a coffee without milk.
|
| I think this is true with espresso, but not with
| pourovers. I think the people who like to drink espresso
| by itself won't go to a cafe to get an espresso since
| they'll likely get a better shot with their own machine
| than a cafe's machine.
|
| The reason being is that cafes don't have time to re-dial
| in their shots midday, and they don't need to be as
| detailed with their shot-pulling since most customers
| order milk-based espresso drinks (so most
| bitterness/sourness from over/under extraction gets
| masked with milk).
| baldeagle wrote:
| Thin, grassy, acidic espresso is a sign of 'third wave'
| coffee... the idea that you could roast the beans juuust
| enough to convert the sugars and keep a bunch of neat
| flavors in a mild and bright cup. But they walk the line
| of juuust enough roasting very close, which often results
| in under roasting especially in copy cat producers.
| Underroasted coffee is marginally ok in pour over /
| chemex, but is horrible in espresso.
|
| There is a 'fourth wave' coffee pushing back on this
| trend that anchors more to big dark espressos sometimes
| even using robusta beans for extra creama and caffeine.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| I grew up in an Italian American neighborhood. I grew up
| drinking coffee from a moka pot, Italian style espresso
| and the odd cappuccino here and there.
|
| I'd say you can't generalize who uses milk or not,
| either. Also the super thin third wave espressos are more
| acidic than bitter. Read up on third wave or Nordic
| espresso. I don't think you have a full grasp on that
| aspect of coffee outside of Southern Europe...
| mtts wrote:
| Right, but "uniform espresso" is exactly what I mean when
| I say Italy has "decent espresso at every corner". In the
| Netherlands, where I live, it's "every place has a
| different variation of awful slop", except for a handful
| of good coffee places (that then may suffer from hipster
| problem of serving sour^H^H^H^H fruity coffee".
|
| So yes, when people praise Italian coffee it's because
| you're pretty much guaranteed it will be ok.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _> that then may suffer from hipster problem of serving
| sour^H^H^H^H fruity coffee"_
|
| I learned to appreciate the fruity coffee of light
| roasts, but it is an acquired taste. If you want bitter
| roasts that tastes like burnt ash, get any Starbucks.
| mtts wrote:
| I'm sure one could learn to appreciate all the different
| aromas, yes, and hat doing so would be an amusing and
| interesting pursuit. However, I have enough hobbies and
| interests already and don't need another one. I just want
| coffee that sort of resembles what you can get at every
| street corner in Italy.
|
| Agreed on Starbucks being roasted too hard, though. I
| suspect that's because most of their coffee will be
| diluted by large amounts of milk and sugary stuff and
| this way some of the bitter flavor people associate with
| coffee.
| gattilorenz wrote:
| Heh, I don't know, uniform could be good if I could pay 2
| Euros and get something that is not very bitter, or very
| sour, or the machine has not been cleaned, or... but
| uniform in style, doesn't mean consistent in quality.
|
| I'm also in NL and tbh while it goes sometimes horribly
| bad (also when visiting people, they offer you a coffee
| but you end up with a kut senseo...) it's on average
| actually quite ok... but I only drink a regular "koffie"
| here unless it's a fancy coffee place, so maybe that's
| the secret :)
| ajkjk wrote:
| Trendy cities in the US tend to have great coffee
| everywhere nowadays. Although I've noticed a slight
| backslide in this in the last few years :(
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| I have a commercially available handheld espresso machine that is
| no longer in production that has a similar design. I'm blanking
| on the name of it (edit: found it, the Mypressi Twist:
| https://coolhunting.com/food-drink/twist-espresso/), it kinda
| looks like a little black mallet - sphere at one end where you
| put the ground coffee and water, and the handle is where you
| insert nitrous canisters (whip cream chargers) for pressure. If I
| searched for a while on Home Barista I'm sure I could find it -
| it got great reviews there. You get 4 shots for each charger.
| It's really a fantastic little device!
|
| To the original author of this post, I'd definitely recommend
| using whip cream chargers instead of CO2. They're usually
| cheaper, and you don't have to worry about the acidity concerns
| you bring up in your post.
| [deleted]
| daniel_reetz wrote:
| this is cool, how did it heat the water, if at all? Just add
| boiling water?
| mewse-hn wrote:
| Would love to get STLs + BOM for this
| woolion wrote:
| Interesting, I was looking back at
| https://sohl.substack.com/p/espresso-and-open-source-hardwar...
| yesterday night (posted on hn as
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35320729), with a recent
| followup on the design.
|
| I was thinking how much I'd like a really open and hackable
| machine... although I'd prefer one for pourover or siphon
| extraction. It doesn't seem there is any project like that, but
| there seem to be a demand for it.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| Similar topic which might be of interest to HN readers is the
| [Gaggiuino](https://gaggiuino.github.io/#/), an open source
| project that adds a microcontroller to fairly affordable and
| mechanically simple domestic espresso machines, bringing them
| (almost) up to par with machines that cost 5x as much
| fodkodrasz wrote:
| The site would definitely need a rework based on the input from
| someone totally unfamiliar with the project.
|
| I cannot know from the opening page, what coffee machines the
| mod is for, but I can see that an STM32 or an arduino nano and
| some other parts would be needed.
|
| Not really informative, no pictures on the opening page to show
| something like before/after, to showcase the benefits, etc.
|
| Yet there is a rickroll...
|
| This is not really sympathetic, but yeah, I can see the begging
| icon (support paying for a professional technical writer)...
| but this is also really backwards in my opinion. First you
| should sell the project to me, then ask for donation.
|
| While the engineering contents might be great, the presentation
| is very low quality, to put it politely.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| It's only for a Gaggia. It's one of those projects that you
| only stumble into if you already have a Gaggia.
| blueblob wrote:
| As someone that's been looking into it, it's not just for
| the Gaggia. It's also for some Silvia models and they have
| a small list of others that people have gotten it to work
| for. The list is, unfortunately, on discord and the discord
| server has some really petty rules and a lot of superiority
| complexes.
| spdif899 wrote:
| I feel the same, as someone who has a Gaggia Classic
| collecting dust and has long considered splurging on a
| near-$1000 option because I want all these features...
|
| This is so vaguely written as to seem far more daunting than
| it probably should, it's unclear how much money or time it
| would cost me, I don't even know where to start with it. Cool
| idea, but totally unapproachable to someone without extensive
| related background.
| yeswecatan wrote:
| If you're in the Bay Area I'd love to take the Gaggia off
| your hands :)
| mattj wrote:
| I've built one of these based on the instructions and use it
| daily (and love it!), but the tone of the site is pretty
| reflective of the project overall. It's definitely a really
| impressive hack and I appreciate all the hard work that's
| gone into it, but could really use a little more user-facing
| empathy.
|
| I'm not sure if I'd recommend it to someone else - and if I
| was doing it again I'd probably spend a few hundred more
| (than the gaggia + parts cost) and just buy an off-the-shelf
| machine with the same feature set.
| giulianob wrote:
| They recently updated it with an official vendor for a [PCB
| kit](https://www.peakcoffee.cc/product/gaggiuino-v3-kit-
| set-gaggi...) that (I believe) includes all of the internal
| components needed. I did the lego build w/ tons of
| soldering and ordering parts off Aliexpress. This new kit
| should make it much easier for newcomers. You still need to
| know what you're doing and it's not for everyone. A machine
| with similar capabilities is something like the Decent at
| $4k.
| schwap wrote:
| I'm curious about what off-the-shelf machines you would
| compare a fully modified gagguino. Granted, I don't have
| one so I'm only going off the feature set listed on the
| page, but short of a Decent ($$$$) I can't think of any
| competitors with features like flow profiles.
| drrotmos wrote:
| Well, there's no cheap competitors with (automatic) flow
| profiles, but there are competitors with automatic flow
| profiles. ACS Vesuvius, Rocket R nine one (although IIRC
| this one is actually pressure profiling, not flow
| profiling), Synesso es.1, Sanremo You to mention some.
|
| If you're looking at manual flow control, basically any
| E61 group machine can be outfitted with a needle valve
| for flow control, and a bunch of machines come with one
| installed from the factory, like the Lelit Bianca.
| There's also machines like the Slayer 1 group and La
| Marzocco GS/3 MP.
|
| Gagguino is very cool, and if you're just pulling
| espressos and not too many back to back, it should be
| plenty of machine. If you're doing more than a couple of
| milk drinks, or pull lots of shots back to back, or want
| to connect it to plumbing, it's not as great of a
| machine. The fact that you started out with a small
| single boiler with a vibration pump starts to show.
| roflyear wrote:
| The Met will hopefully be shipping early next year which
| will have these capabilities.
| kozhevnikov wrote:
| Lance Hedrick in his latest video (review of Decent XL)
| mentions that he got the Gaggiuino parts, but haven't got
| around to building it. I look forward to that video, whenever
| it comes out.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| Yeah, I'm looking forward to his experience. I've been on the
| fence about whether to build a Gaggiuino myself, or sell the
| GCP and upgrade to a dual boiler machine. I don't really care
| for flow profiling, but more stable temps and auto shot
| timing would be nice to have. And I make a lot of milk drinks
| so a DB would eliminate some of the wait time and need to
| flush the boiler.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| I own a Gaggia Classic that this mod is for and I'm a little
| unsure of calling a nearly $500 machine + DIY 'affordable'
| bondarchuk wrote:
| That's less than a year of 1 takeaway coffee a day.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| Before the $200 grinder, and the ~$200-300 of quality
| coffee beans in a year.
|
| Meanwhile, one can also get a temp-controlled kettle, a
| V60, a years supply of filters, and a hand grinder for
| ~$80. Skip the temp control and hand grinder and you are
| down to $30 or less.
|
| It is better than daily takeout, sure..but lets not pretend
| it is just a randomly affordable purchase for most when
| brewing non-espresso is far cheaper for good quality. Trust
| me, I know, I spent the money on mine. Love it, for
| sure...but is every bit a luxury good.
| bondarchuk wrote:
| I was assuming the takeout coffee is espresso. If so it's
| not fair to compare to a non-espresso alternative imho.
|
| Now for really affordable (almost-)espresso there's
| always the blade grinder + moka pot, of course.
|
| (anyway "affordable" is highly subjective ofc so what
| does it even really matter :))
| benoliver999 wrote:
| I love this sort of thing. But I learnt more about it from your
| comment vs the actual docs!
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| That might be one of the reasons they're trying to fundraise
| for a technical writer! I think the docs currently serve more
| as an installation & troubleshooting manual, and assumes some
| kind of familiarity.
| yourusername wrote:
| A bit less DIY but similar functionally is the kit Shades of
| Coffee sells that also adds PID to the Gaggia classic. If
| you're just after the functionality of a cheap espresso machine
| with PID that takes a lot less effort.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| For even less effort buy a breville bambino.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| I've been tempted a few times, especially by the fast
| (efficient) heat up times. But I have a bunch of 58mm
| tampers, dosing funnels, etc, so the 54mm portalfilter is a
| bit offputting!
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| As a Barista express person going 54mm is a regret. 58 is
| more versatile and compatiable.
|
| But the recommendation was more for budget purchases.
| Breville also do a dual boiler with 58mm which is more
| expensive but if you live in Australia is amazingly good
| value (often $900AU which is about $600US). If you have
| more money still get a La Marzocco or whatever :-)
|
| My taste is to avoid fiddly things that need too much
| skill like heat exchangers etc.
| speed_spread wrote:
| If anybody's interested in a packaged solution, Auber
| Instruments has been making PIDs and timers for Gaggia and
| Rancilio machines for a looong time. Their support is also
| top notch. (I use their PID with my Silvia)
|
| https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6&s.
| ..
| matthewmcg wrote:
| I have one. It's made my machine so much better. Once you
| find a grind setting and dose weight that works well for
| your beans, you get perfectly reproducible shots.
| antoniuschan99 wrote:
| What Grinder do you use? I have a Gaggia as well been
| using Baratza Encore but it's not really for Espresso but
| now they have the Encore Esp for espresso
| matthewmcg wrote:
| I've got the Virtuoso. The '586 (?) model with improved
| burrs. It's bulletproof. I did have to replace a few of
| the plastic parts that act like mechanical fuses when I
| tried to grind a batch of coffee that had a pebble in it.
| SergeAx wrote:
| My espresso craving is fully satisfied by the Nespresso capsule
| machine; the classic type, with capsule patent expired, not the
| newer Vertuo type. Original Nespresso capsules are 5-6 euro per
| pack of 10; non-originals from Illy or Lavazza are even cheaper
| at about 40 cents per shot.
|
| Entry-level machines are as cheap as 100 euro, for 200-300 you
| will get semi- or fully-auto, plus some features like milk
| frother. The primary advantage here is reproducibility and ease
| of use: insert the capsule, check the water level, push the
| button, and here you go.
|
| Some espresso aficionados with 1000 EUR machines and 400 EUR
| grinders tried to impress me with their setups. Still, I honestly
| cannot taste the difference unless they use special Arabica
| roasts with unbearable acidity, which sadly has become
| increasingly popular nowadays.
| romafirst3 wrote:
| have you tried instant coffee? Nestle have a very good "gold
| blend" for coffee aficionados.
| demondemidi wrote:
| the best for backpacking! and i say that as a radical coffee
| snob.
| demondemidi wrote:
| The new spinning Nespresso is a lot worse than the original.
| Rotary extraction makes a watery americano with foam, not
| crema. The original is really nice to find in Euro hotel rooms,
| but most Euro hotels have quality espresso machines in the
| lobby.
| stephen_g wrote:
| It's funny, I know it's a silly idea (I mean, I literally have an
| ex-commercial espresso machine plumbed-in in the kitchen) but the
| idea of making my own espresso machine has also always fascinated
| me. Designing a pressure vessel (as an electronic designer that
| can find my way around solid modelling CAD well enough) for steam
| is scary though, although just doing the espresso but wouldn't be
| too dangerous.
| demondemidi wrote:
| as someone who fell deep into the espresso hole over the past 8
| years (from an $800 saeco to a $3000 profitec with a few in
| between), i see several problems with this.
|
| First, CO2 -WILL- enter the brew. There is no way to stop it.
| This will create carbonic acid and elevate the pH. Which
| absolutely will impact the flavor. Part of the extraction
| "dialing in" process is determining the dose, temperature, grind,
| and duration for a new bean (and as it ages). The last thing you
| want it so add more acidity to the flavor. Some people do like
| sour espresso, I do not, and I think I'm in the majority.
|
| Second, consistency of pressure. A CO2 canister output pressure
| changes with temperature and volume. An espresso machine uses a
| pump (and some a PID) to regulate this.
|
| Third, this thing will probably explode after a few weeks. You
| can't subject plastics to this type of pressure. But OP did
| suggest using metal in the next version.
|
| Fourth, health. Plastic + hot water is bad, add extreme pressure
| and it is even worse. Kick it up a notch using 3D printed
| plastic, which is a nowhere near food safe. I'm not too far into
| the "don't eat out of warm plastic" group, but i'm close. This
| would concern me.
|
| I think it is a cool build. But a Bialeti is sufficient if you
| don't want to drop thousands on espresso machinery. Also in the
| running, the early Nespresso designs, not the rotary one. Both
| will get you into "americano" territory.
| z3dd wrote:
| > But a Bialeti is sufficient if you don't want to drop
| thousands on espresso machinery.
|
| Or 9barista/cafelat robot
| Johnny555 wrote:
| >Fourth, health. Plastic + hot water is bad, add extreme
| pressure and it is even worse. Kick it up a notch using 3D
| printed plastic, which is a nowhere near food safe. I'm not too
| far into the "don't eat out of warm plastic" group, but i'm
| close. This would concern me.
|
| It doesn't look like the coffee or water touches the plastic,
| it goes into a metal Cafelat Robot basket then is tamped with a
| metal screen on top.
| leni536 wrote:
| > A CO2 canister output pressure changes with temperature and
| volume
|
| Temperature yes, volume, not really. The CO2 is in liquid
| state, maintaining its vapour pressure. Although if the
| starting volume is low, then the liquid could substantially
| cool down during the extraction and lower the vapour pressure
| that way.
|
| All of this is irrelevant though, as the pressure is regulated
| down to espresso extraction levels during the extraction. It
| looks like it's done by hand by eyeballing the pressure gauge,
| pretty wild.
|
| Also not much CO2 enters into a hot liquid, CO2 solubility is
| drastically down at this temp, as the article notes.
| achr2 wrote:
| I would be worried about carbonic acid production. What about a
| nitrogen charge instead? Could even improve creama.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| Yes, he should use a nitrogen charger instead. The Mypressi
| Twist was a commercially available machine that used nitrogen
| chargers in a similar design and worked beautifully.
| rasengan0 wrote:
| Co2 should be for pellet guns. Those canisters are a cost sink.
|
| after much research on YouTube, https://www.home-barista.com/ et
| al
|
| here are my notes should this be of use:
|
| Adventures with manual espresso to improve upon restriction from
| Fellows Prismo + body weight atop yoga brick
| (https://youtu.be/OMuDiq-Tvaw):
|
| All 3 methods employ tampering but no WDT, I do subscribe to a
| bottom paper filter in the basket (https://youtu.be/lPAel26Cw_A)
|
| These 3 gave great satisfactory results as judged by family when
| compared to cafe bought
|
| 1. https://www.joepresso.com/ with pressurized basket + body
| weight atop yoga brick Best in terms of short workflow and
| Americano, love the 'crema', fastest workflow and variety of
| experiment in and out of basket.
|
| 2. https://www.wacaco.com/products/picopresso :-( preheating
| basket for best results, too small volume, good for travel, many
| small parts and steps = longer workflow
|
| 3. https://espressoforge.com/ True excellent espresso, 58 mm
| baskets, uses more coffee than above methods 19g but clumsy with
| gasket adjustment, the greasing maintenance and need to preheat
| :-(, get the stainless steel, American made.
|
| 1. Joepresso is the daily driver, the cup is more fuller bodied
| with increased dwell time, more variety to mix light and dark
| roasts a la Philz 2. EspressoForge - true espresso, nuff said
| Weekends or more time = EspressoForge 3. picopresso - more for
| travel and sometimes not enough to unseat Aeropress Go for work
| EDC yeah, i gotta go to the office
| cryptonector wrote:
| Needs a pressure regulator to make it safe.
| [deleted]
| boomskats wrote:
| I have a huge Rocket espresso machine that I haven't used for 3-4
| years, ever since I bought my Cafelat Robot. Honestly, I
| appreciate the engineering in this post but it's just not
| necessary given how good the Robot already is.
|
| The manual control makes it possible to do flow profiling with
| something like a Timamore Nano scale, by adjusting pressure in
| real time according to the flow rate reading on the scale. I've
| been making and drinking espresso for a long time and nothing
| comes close to the flow-profiled spro I've made using this
| method.
| ruph123 wrote:
| Will that scale fit under the robot?
| boomskats wrote:
| It's a couple of mm too wide, it fits at an angle. But it
| works well.
| titanomachy wrote:
| The DIY version is still way cheaper.
| SturgeonsLaw wrote:
| Gotta admit the combo of 3D printed parts, high pressure and hot
| water makes me a little nervous but that looks like a very cool
| device
| wwykeham wrote:
| There's an important extra ingredient that you didn't specify:
| FEA. He did a proper finite element analysis, which is the only
| way that I would be willing to be in the same room as a 3D
| printed pressure vessel.
|
| Temperature was interesting though. I assume it partially
| because the hot water was mostly in contact with metal rather
| than plastic. I don't know what he printed it from but ABS's
| melting point[1] is only just above water boiling point. We've
| got a UV cured 3D printer at work (projet) which has some much
| better temperature properties.
|
| [1] Technically "glass transition temperature" if you want be
| all materials-science about it
| criddell wrote:
| Modeling with FEA is great but I wonder if he also did a
| fatigue analysis. It might not blow up the first time, but
| will it blow up three years later after the parts have been
| pressurized and thermally cycled 1000 times?
| MarkMarine wrote:
| It'll probably fail at some point, but the failure mode is
| probably a crack and a leak, especially on the threaded
| connections.
|
| That said, making this out of steel would be much safer.
| Seems like the person that wrote this is pretty uniquely
| frugal, and doesn't value their time, so I'm going to wager
| that will give them a happy chance to redesign the part.
|
| They could have done some contract design work in the time
| they spent on this and bought a nice espresso machine plus
| had some money to stick in the bank, but I suppose that
| isn't the point.
| mastax wrote:
| Did the FEA account for the weakness from the layer lines or
| did it pretend it was an injection molded part (I'm assuming
| the latter).
| beAbU wrote:
| I'm quite certain they conducted FEA on the Titan DSV's hull.
| And look how that turned out.
| plagiarist wrote:
| I, too, thought of the Titan when I saw that photo of all
| the leaks under only espresso PSI.
| speed_spread wrote:
| They then also proceeded to _repeatedly_ exceed the design
| parameters (depth) that FEA had been performed with. You
| can't beat stupid.
| projektfu wrote:
| There's a lot of worrying, not just in this article, about parts
| of the system that are largely incidental to making espresso. The
| important parts are the filter that allows the coffee through at
| the right pressure and a way to keep everything at consistent
| temperature. There is not much difference between a $100 pump
| machine and the expensive cafe machine except that the expensive
| one has metal water jackets to keep everything warm. They also
| clean easily and produce consistent steam for milk.
|
| To me, the lever machines are really neat. It was the lever
| machine that started the trend in Italy, and the moka pot that
| made "espresso at home" a thing.
|
| Still, extraction is only one variable. The time a person spends
| agonizing over temperature and pressure could also be spent
| learning how to select, blend and roast beans, which can be done
| cheaply at home using a hot air popcorn popper.
| zuppy wrote:
| > There is not much difference between a $100 pump machine and
| the expensive cafe machine except that the expensive one has
| metal water jackets to keep everything warm
|
| i couldn't disagree more. there are many many differences
| between a cheap (100$ is cheap) machine and an expensive one.
| first of all, what is important is the pressure at the
| portafilter, not on the pump, you would say that those are the
| same, but they are not. second, it's important for that
| pressure to be stable.
|
| other things that are important:
|
| - temperature stability. even small things like a colder
| portafilter chan affect this, but what's most important is to
| control a fixed temperature and deliver that across the entire
| process.
|
| - the quality of the filter basket (a precision filter from
| companies like IMS & co). this helps with consistent extraction
| and minimises the chance for channelling to occur.
|
| - having a way to do a pre-infusion
|
| - being able to change the temperature and pressure in order to
| accommodate various kinds of coffee and tastes
|
| - etc (i can go on for ages with differences, like dual vs
| single boiler, milk vs no milk, rotary vs vibration pump etc).
| it's like saying a ferrari and a ford are the same because both
| of them have 4 wheels.
|
| yes, you can make espresso without any of those, but saying
| there are no differences is not true. with skill and an
| expensive machine you can do a great espresso (or buy a Decent,
| you can do that without the skill if you don't want mess with
| changing variables, but still the output is great. with skill,
| the sky is the limit)
| explaininjs wrote:
| You're underestimating the utility of the lever machine,
| namely the precision/accuracy is just as good as you can
| personally make it. I've been fine tuning my Flair technique
| for over 1000 shots at this point. I know the precise
| pressure profile I like, and I can make fantastic espresso
| every single time. Even in the middle of the wilderness on a
| propane burner.
| hellcow wrote:
| Reviews online indicated you need to pre-heat the Flair's
| chamber and portafilter and that this is a big annoyance.
| What's been your experience?
| explaininjs wrote:
| Yes you do have to, but I developed a technique to make
| it pretty easy. The flair videos have you using a bowl of
| some sort as a water container and submerging the chamber
| entirely, whereas I just place the brew chamber on a
| piece of granite. The lapping of each is sufficient to
| form a watertight seal, and I use the minimum amount of
| water possible, which is nice because waiting for the
| boil is the longest component of my process. All in all
| the preheat probably adds <1:00 between time spent
| actually preheating and the additional time it takes to
| boil the extra water needed for preheating.
|
| That said I do prefer more acidity in my brews, so I only
| opt for a single flush of preheating water. Some people
| do 2 or even more, which would obviously take more time.
| zuppy wrote:
| i'm not denying that, but how much time have you invested
| into it and how much time do you think the average person
| can afford to? how much extra time do you spend for each
| cup compared to a regular semiautomatic machine? do you
| have the one that heats the brew head, because if so,
| that's not a 100$ machine, it's a 500$ one (
| https://flairespresso.com/flair-58-first-look/ ). if not,
| how much extra time you add to preheat it?
|
| how hard is for someone else from your household to do a
| shot with your machine?
|
| by a very simple technique (measuring the time to run a
| very specific weight of output coffee) you can do great
| espresso on a semiautomatic machine. doing that on a manual
| one is much harder, but not impossible.
|
| the sum of all of these small details is what makes the
| difference in pricing. what i dissagree is to put an equal
| sign between a cheap espresso machine and a prosumer one
| (like Lelit Bianca for example). don't get me wrong, i
| think flair makes awesome manual machines, i've sunk in the
| espresso rabbit hole a few years ago and i'm still not out
| of it :), but we have to see that these machines are for
| people who have this as a hobby and really love doing it.
| explaininjs wrote:
| The full process takes me <5:00 in the morning. I don't
| know how long a semiautomatic machine would take, but I'm
| lucky enough to have 5:00 minutes to spare for a
| generally meditative ritual each morning.
|
| I don't have the heated brew head, but my process
| involves preheating the brew head while I'm "packing the
| bowl" (so to speak), so there is no "down time".
|
| I brought out the stopwatch this morning, the general
| breakdown is as follows: 0:00: Fill up
| kettle, put on stove 0:15: pour beans into
| commandante (measure by acquired knowledge of how 15g
| looks in the device coupled with bag-specific fine
| tuning) 0:30: Begin grinding 1:15:
| Grinding complete, begin to disassemble and clean
| equipment, restore plunger position to top of brew
| chamber 2:00: Cleaning complete, pack bowl while
| waiting for boil to finish (main bottleneck/downtime).
| 3:00: Boil complete, pour water into upturned brew
| chamber placed on granite slab for watertight seal
| 3:30: Preheat complete, transfer chamber onto device,
| begin main pour/press procedure. 4:15: Espresso
| complete.
|
| As you can see the main bottleneck is the water boiling.
| If I can get the exact right amount for the preheat and
| brew it will cut the time down a good bit, but if I
| undershoot it takes considerably longer to bring new
| water up to boil. An electric kettle (220v??) would help
| too, but I want a setup that works off-grid.
|
| The nice thing with this setup is that it's so simple to
| clean that there's no time at all dedicated to long-term
| cleaning or maintenance. With the daily washdown which is
| already integrated into my workflow while waiting for the
| boil, I keep the machine in pristine condition. Compare
| that to larger equipment which needs occasional
| breakdown/descalding/etc. procedures.
| tostr wrote:
| That is a massive oversimplification. There are a huge number
| of variables that have a very noticeable impact on the coffee.
| Pressure (over time), temperature (over time), flow rate,
| composition of the water, puck resistance (and change over
| time), many ways to change how the water extracts from the
| puck, pre-infusion time (and temp. and pressure...). This is
| just the machine side, ignoring beans, grinding, distribution
| and tamping.
|
| And the effect of a single one of those variables can be the
| difference between a god shot and something that tastes rather
| off. I am not saying you need a machine that allows you to
| control all of this to get good shots, but the effect on the
| result is still there. Something like a Decent DE1 can actually
| control a lot of this, a lever machine actually allows a lot of
| control as well. 100$ pump machine to an expensive espresso
| machine is a huge difference in many regards. Consistency being
| probably the biggest one.
|
| So no, I do not thing your assessment on complexity of espresso
| making is an accurate representation. I concede however, that
| if you know what you are doing, good espresso can be had on
| cheap-ish machines, it's just much harder and less consistent.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| Moka pot is only 1-2 bars of pressure, not "real" espresso.
| Stronger than drip, but little consistency or control. Never
| turned down a cup though :)
| deliriumchn wrote:
| > There is not much difference between a $100 pump machine and
| the expensive cafe machine
|
| There is, actually, a lot of differences. Expensive machines
| have that cheap ones don't:
|
| - multiple (2+) boilers so you can pour 2 caps/pour cap and
| steam/etc
|
| - a lot less noise
|
| - more consistent temperatures
|
| - preheating
|
| - as mentioned, more consistent steamers, but also precise
| control over them
|
| - built-in grinder (most of the times mediocre one, but better
| than none at all, albeit most people who follow this hobby just
| buy a separate one)
|
| - sometimes they can be controlled remotely
|
| - other smaller things
|
| Most importantly, they're usually a lot more reliable and well-
| built.
|
| But yes, taste-wise difference will not be substantial, its
| more like paying for your own comfort if you really want to
| invest in coffee. Hand lever brewers can be just as good for a
| fraction of a price if you don't mind to take extra steps.
| Makes it more fun for some people actually.
| xtiansimon wrote:
| Hmmm. I was a teen in the late 1980's and I recall vividly a
| Steam Punk espresso machine I saw at a SOMA art gallery in San
| Francisco.
|
| It had a volleyball size spherical steam chamber heated by a
| propane wok burner. I'm fuzzy about the connection to a smallish
| brew chamber with a foot long lever arm. It was all a play on
| scale. The whole setup was somehow a unified whole out of a
| Miyazaki anime.
|
| DIY meets art. Would be thrilled to see that device again
| compared to my memory palace.
| mastax wrote:
| A different machine in a similar vein:
| https://youtu.be/v4QyfElo1fs
| frognumber wrote:
| This is nice.
|
| If I were doing it, my design would consist of:
|
| (1) A bike pump (goes up to >200 PSI)
|
| (2) A pressure tank
|
| (3) Two valves
|
| I would pump up the tank to ~130PSI, getting my morning exercise
| in. I would exhaust it through the coffee. If I wanted to get
| fancy, I might have an extra intermediate stage so I can use
| fresh air, rather than air which has been through my bike pump.
|
| I'd like to be able to buy something like (any) of these. My
| requirements:
|
| - Cheap
|
| - Reliable
|
| - Makes good coffee
|
| Nice-to-haves:
|
| - Compact
|
| Anti-requirements (which should make this possible):
|
| - Fast to use and practical in a fast-paced environment.
|
| I make one cup of coffee a day, and it's a ritual. I'm okay with
| this taking a while, needing to work a bike pump, or whatnot.
| Slow is okay.
| earthscienceman wrote:
| Everyone here mentions the handpresso but the picopresso is a
| better design IMO:
|
| https://www.wacaco.com/collections/picopresso
| m-p-3 wrote:
| I was looking at the Nanopresso, seems like a good middle
| ground between size and price.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| The reviews I've seen of these strongly suggest they do NOT
| make good espresso vs. a proper machine. Have you found
| differently?
| manual89 wrote:
| They come halfway close, but not enough pressure in the
| end.
|
| They are also not going to last you very long especially
| if you use it a lot.
| chayesfss wrote:
| [dead]
| m-p-3 wrote:
| I haven't committed to a purchase yet.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| A gotcha that hits me here is that, by using a pressure tank,
| you will likely run into a cleaning/humidity problem. You need
| that air to be flawlessly clean and the act of pressurizing and
| depressurizing the tank would make that difficult.
| Additionally, you need to pressurize near-boiling water as well
| so you'll need a boiler/water mixing tank. Finally, the
| temperature of the actual brewing environment is important,
| otherwise the outer edges will be lesser extracted.
|
| On the other hand, a Flair Neo works fine
| top_coder wrote:
| > - Cheap
|
| You're ignoring the grinder, which in my opinion is the most
| important part of home espresso making. Add at least 200USD for
| a good quality manual burr grinder.
| jnovek wrote:
| You can find a Baratza Encore used for ~$100. Gives a
| surprisingly uniform fine grind (not as good for coarser
| grinds like french press, though).
|
| Out of the box it's not perfect for espresso because the
| grind level is in steps that aren't short enough to easily
| dial in. There's a "stepless" mod and that makes it much
| easier to work with.
| maeln wrote:
| You can find the Timemore C2 for 50 to 60 euros and it is a
| pretty decent manual burr grinder. And for around ~100 euros
| you can find decent burr grinder from more known brand. If
| you are going to spend more than 200USD, you might as well
| buy an electric one.
| falsenapkin wrote:
| I don't think C2 or a $200 electric grinder are going to be
| great for espresso. I have a 1ZPresso JX-Pro I got for like
| $150 and at the time at least sounded like a much better
| option vs C2 and cheap electric. I'm happier with it than
| the C2 and cheap electric I've used.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| If you live in a city it's relatively trivial to buy pre-
| ground from a good roaster. Not the same as grinding in the
| moment of course but for a week's worth it's generally ok.
| Especially for the first coffee of the day.
| anon84873628 wrote:
| For home espresso you really want the ability to tweak the
| grind size for each shot. Small variations in grind size
| can significantly change the flow rate, which dictates the
| peak pressure & shot time you can achieve. When you buy a
| new bag of beans it can take a couple tries to "dial in".
| The appropriate grind size depends substantially on the
| coffee variety, roast level, age of beans, etc. If the pre-
| ground coffee doesn't hit the mark then you are SOL for the
| batch -- including if it is too fine and doesn't flow at
| all. Even if you hit the mark in the beginning, the shot
| behavior will change over time as the beans age.
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| The handpresso seems up your street:
|
| https://www.handpresso.com/en/handpresso-pump-black-351.html
| stephen_g wrote:
| There's also the Picopresso which is (I believe) generally
| regarded to produce a better result -
| https://www.wacaco.com/products/picopresso
|
| Still hand pumped, looks a bit less like a bike pump though!
| dfxm12 wrote:
| I second the picopresso. My buddy has one and, while the
| tradeoff of the small size is that it's a little more
| cumbersome, the espresso it can produce rivals that of the
| Flair and similar, larger machines. I wouldn't consider any
| other portable espresso machine.
|
| Recently on prime day, the nanopresso and minipresso had
| great deals, but not the nanopresso, or I would have picked
| one up for myself.
| dale_glass wrote:
| Get yourself a lever machine?
|
| It's an espresso machine that's fully manual. You create
| pressure by using a lever. Water is manually poured in.
|
| Cheapness is hard to have in a product that's big, heavy and
| involves big chunks of metal, but on the good side a well made
| one should last forever -- nothing much that can go wrong, and
| it's a purely mechanical device that can be taken apart.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| Love levers! I have three going on four, they're pretty
| addictive.
|
| These days you can get a very good one (Flair Flex) for $99!
| That, some good beans and a bit of knowledge and you'll make
| coffee on par with any shop out there.
| jnovek wrote:
| +1 for a lever! I found a busted up old La Pavoni years ago,
| replaced all the seals and it's been good to me ever since.
| There's a bit of art to pulling a shot on a lever but once
| you get used to it, it's a really fun way to make your coffee
| every day.
| sudb wrote:
| Another happy La Pavoni owner here! I was originally after
| a totally manual lever machine but found a great deal
| (~PS200) on a second hand La Pavoni in miraculously good
| condition and couldn't be happier (apart from the
| occasional burned knuckle). Readily available spare parts
| and lack of any serious electronics means that hopefully
| this thing should last me a lifetime. My one recommended
| upgrade is a compatibly bottomless portafilter + 20g
| basket.
| achr2 wrote:
| I live this life too - my La Pavoni has been going strong
| for over a decade! Multiple shots a day. Maintenance
| every once in a while. My additional recommended simple
| upgrade is to add a momentary switch to bypass the
| sensors, allowing you to quickly increase the pressure
| for steaming.
| jperras wrote:
| Pavoni owner here - they're simple, built like a tank, and
| you can do basic maintenance on it with a 10mm wrench and a
| few other small hand tools.
|
| As long as you're willing to invest a bit of effort in the
| learning curve of literally pulling a shot, it's the
| perfect machine. I've made 3-6 shots a day on mine for 4
| years now, and I know people who have used their machine
| daily for 20+ years.
| Applejinx wrote:
| This is sounding great to me. Probably going to go for the
| robot one :)
| andreareina wrote:
| I don't know if the reservoir is big enough but some pumps for
| tubeless tires do come with an integral tank for an initial
| rush of air to pop the bead in place.
| averonspy wrote:
| You can buy one already - handpresso :) The original was based
| on a manual hand bicycle pump.
| HillRat wrote:
| Flair is a line of inexpensive, fully-manual lever espresso
| machines with varying degrees of portability. Excellent
| designs.
| lytfyre wrote:
| depending on your definition of cheap, sounds a lot like the
| Portaspresso Rossa Air
| (https://portaspresso.com/shop/ols/products/rossa-tr-air-
| espr...).
|
| You may also like the Espresso Forge, which manages to go even
| more reductive than what you propose, forgoing the pumping, or
| any sort of leverage, in favour of a piston for you to push on
| with a basket on the end.
| rabbits_2002 wrote:
| Wow he says espresso machines produce 131 psi thats nuts. Can
| they explode?
| selimnairb wrote:
| Just buy a Flair.
| notorandit wrote:
| Why not trying a moka?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_pot
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Moka pots don't make espresso, they don't get up to the
| pressure required for espresso-level extraction. They're still
| quite good and I prefer them over drip brew for most coffees.
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