[HN Gopher] Paul Brodeur, journalist who exposed asbestos hazard...
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Paul Brodeur, journalist who exposed asbestos hazards, dies at 92
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 138 points
Date : 2023-08-13 14:34 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.washingtonpost.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.washingtonpost.com)
| andrewl wrote:
| After I saw the movie _The Stunt Man_ I read Brodeur's book by
| the same name, on which the movie was based. Both are worth your
| time. The movie was underrated in my opinion.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| Concur. The movie is fantastic, Peter O'Toole scintillating.
| PeterStuer wrote:
| As a student in the 80's, I had sidejob as an enqueteur. The
| worst campaign I remember was for asbestos roof tiles. It was a
| completely inane questionaire the goal of which was to get people
| to agree to a 2 hr (sales) follow-up. I ditched that one after
| the first half day.
| carstenhag wrote:
| Offtopic on this man's death, on topic about asbestos: My parents
| always told me my grandpa died because he smoked tobacco. As a
| kid I took this very serious and of course never once wanted to
| smoke, having lost him when I was 5 or so. When I was 17-18, my
| family talked about asbestos and that it was actually asbestos-
| caused lung cancer that killed him. Usually I hate lies with a
| passion, but in this case I am glad my parents lied to me.
| kazinator wrote:
| For a time in the 1950's, Kent cigarettes used asbestos
| filters.
| tjrgergw wrote:
| Thanks for sharing.
|
| I don't agree with the take away. My parents told me my whole
| life "don't do drugs", and so I didn't. And no one in the
| family was into drugs.
|
| What's my point? Not sure. I guess I also hate lies with a
| passion, and additionally there's multiple ways to get the
| outcome of not getting your kids to do X. I don't know what it
| is, but some kids when you tell them "don't do X", they want to
| do X. I guess you and I, luckily, aren't like that, and I
| suspect maybe that's a large part of why your parents "don't
| smoke" thing had an affect on you.
| vizzah wrote:
| The problem is - when parents say "don't do something"
| (without giving a good excuse not to) - it has little (and
| often opposite) effect.
| tjrgergw wrote:
| I don't believe that. And in fact, you have two examples
| right here (me and the person I was responding to) where we
| were told "don't do X" and we didn't.
|
| I know everyone says it, but I think "kids do the opposite"
| is pop-psych BS. I've never met a balanced a person who'd
| say "I just did the opposite of what my parents told me". I
| only know of examples where invariably the kids are
| disturbed also in other ways, and so it's impossible to
| disentangle cause and effect.
|
| People just repeat nonsense they hear with no basis
| whatsoever, and so BS propagates.
| simmerup wrote:
| Then how do you explain reverse psychology?
| tjrgergw wrote:
| You mean this?
|
| > Susan Fowler writes, "Beware that such strategies [of
| reverse psychology] can backfire. Children can sense
| manipulation a mile away." She instead recommends leading
| by example.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_psychology
| asdff wrote:
| Usually when there is cognitive dissonance involved with
| the command. Parents might tell you being gay or smoking
| weed sends you to hell, but then when you finally see
| examples of people that meet these definitions your parents
| espoused but aren't presumably suffering the harmful
| effects they claim, you start to question their judgement
| and the entire belief system they saddled upon you.
| Teenagers don't usually act out just to act out. They don't
| argue to you the sky is red when you say its blue, they
| will argue breathless over it though if you claim its red
| when they can go outside and see that it is blue.
| YesBox wrote:
| It's interesting looking back, before the hazards were widely
| known ("Silk from Stone" - Vermont Life Magazine, 1954. Home of
| the nations largest asbestos mine)
|
| https://archive.org/details/rbmsbk_ap2-v4_1954_V08N3/page/n3...
| ck2 wrote:
| It's supposedly not used by many manufacturers today but imagine
| through the 1990s when asbestos was still used widely in car
| brake pads, at every traffic light when cars stop the particles
| would fly into the air, then pedestrians are crossing the street,
| etc. breathing through that cloud.
| nick_ wrote:
| Sadly just one of the very many negative externalities of car-
| centric cities that are imposed on people who don't opt-in to
| the madness.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| I think the more pressing concern is the systemic nature of
| this issue. We've eliminated lead and MTBE from auto fuel,
| and no longer use asbestos, but have replaced them with
| plastic (leading to micro plastics everywhere, including
| being found in heart tissue), PFAS, BPA, etc. The EPA
| approved a plastic waste fuel proposed by Chevron that is
| highly likely to cause cancer with almost no pushback. Almost
| 100% of the US population has DuPont C8 (used to make Teflon)
| in their bloodstream.
|
| It's a call for government regulators who aren't industry
| pushovers and conservative evaluation and approval approaches
| to novel materials. We need a system that won't enable us to
| continually find new ways to poison ourselves, but still
| allows for material innovation. Activists and journalism
| professionals are key stakeholders in this effort, holding
| (or at least trying to) government and industry accountable.
| We continue to need people like Paul who talk about this.
| Same story, different materials.
|
| (walkable communities are of importance and significance as
| well of course)
| bagacrap wrote:
| What is an acceptable rate of causing cancer and how do you
| determine what rate a new material will have?
|
| I hope your answer to the first question is not zero
| because things like PFAS do have benefits that are directly
| translatable to health outcomes. For example, when used for
| water proofing clothing, they might prevent hypothermia and
| save lives in extreme conditions. Plastic water bottles
| enable the distribution of clean water in areas that don't
| have (can't afford) good infrastructure. Less glass and
| more plastic means less broken glass on city streets, which
| I appreciate as a dog owner who doesn't want his pooch to
| step on broken shards.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| We have standards for acceptable risk. In the Chevron
| example, they were just ignored by the EPA.
|
| Basically, every Chevron employee working with those
| products will likely develop cancer as a result.
|
| Environmental issues are tough. It's easy to focus on
| your dogs' paw and not even be aware that people are
| needlessly suffering and dying to protect it.
| bagacrap wrote:
| I don't know anything about this Chevron example, but
| there are two possibilities:
|
| A) it's not as clear cut as you say
|
| B) it is as clear cut as you say, and I agree with you
|
| But if the latter were true, there would probably be a
| high profile post on HN or elsewhere about it.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| First few links.
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false
| &qu...
|
| Propublica: https://www.propublica.org/article/epa-
| approved-chevron-fuel...
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Some cancer (harm, in general) is going to have to be
| acceptable. Zero risk is rare. I am not a chemical
| engineering domain expert, so I can't speak to the
| acceptable amount of harm caused to progress ratio. Do
| the math and make it public. With that said, I'd argue
| we're too far to one side of the pendulum and need to
| find the middle close to less overall harm caused.
|
| It's not all doom and gloom. Switching from lead and MTBE
| to ethanol as an anti knock additive in auto fuel was an
| objective win. There are more wins like that out there I
| believe.
| veave wrote:
| You can opt out by moving to the countryside.
| jeffbee wrote:
| There are many naturally occurring hazards in the
| countryside, including asbestos.
| bagacrap wrote:
| I would agree but we're talking about asbestos here. It was
| primarily used in building insulation. Are you suggesting we
| should have opted out of housing altogether as the sane
| people opt out of driving? Because I would have suggested we
| simply stop using asbestos, whether in houses or cars.
| mustafa_pasi wrote:
| Now we have carbon fibre. And asbestos is still everywhere. You
| just need to know where to look for it. However, in most cases
| it is perfectly safe unless pulverized.
| rcme wrote:
| I don't consider it perfectly safe. We live in a world of
| constant change. If you install something, say fireproofing
| on a structure, you need a plan to remove it in the event of
| a repair or renovation. You can't say "it's fine as long as
| you don't touch it" because what thing on Earth is never
| touched again?
| bookofjoe wrote:
| >Computer simulation study of fullerene translocation
| through lipid membranes (2008)
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/nnano.2008.130
| remote_phone wrote:
| People with heavy, prolonged exposure to asbestos have up to 13%
| chance is getting cancer.
|
| People with prolonged exposure to sawdust have a 16% chance of
| getting cancer.
|
| Asbestos is dangerous but not nearly as dangerous as most people
| think.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| That's an ignorant interpretation of those statistics.
|
| 13% risk is a number controlling out other factors. Cancer is a
| numbers game and as a person living your life you stack the
| risks together.
|
| Trying to rhetorically minimize the danger of this stuff by
| comparing it to sawdust is specious and gross. Exposure to
| sawdust is a narrow occupational hazard easily mitigated with
| PPE. Exposure to asbestos is a much broader - use of baby
| powder, serving on a ship, working in a boiler room, working as
| a mechanic, etc. Its a very broad risk that most workers didn't
| even realize they were exposed to - just their presence was a
| risk.
| logdap wrote:
| [dead]
| remote_phone wrote:
| Please provide sources for all of your claims.
| tegmark wrote:
| i discovered this after buying a house with asbestos and
| looking not only into the official guidelines but the
| undercurrent of industry experts, their observations. the risks
| of asbestos are massively overblown in the way that the public
| understands it. massively. it was shocking to find out.
| jtwaleson wrote:
| Do you have some sources? I'm interested in this topic as
| there is also asbestos in my house.
| goeiedaggoeie wrote:
| Turns out getting particles into our lungs are bad! I recently
| did some DIY on an old cottage on our land which was empty for
| years, I got a N100 mask since it was painted with lead paint
| which was flaking off and I was putting lead containment paint
| over it after brushing it down. An older person seeing me take
| this rudimentary precaution went about mocking me for being
| timid.
| delphi4711 wrote:
| assuming you are correct, what if someone is exposed to both
| asbestos and sawdust? And what if that person is also a smoker?
| And now that person also lives in a house with high radon
| exposure.
| CharlesW wrote:
| Can you post a link to the source?
|
| It's well-known that both asbestos and wood dust (especially
| hardwood dust) are carcinogens, but (for example) mesothelioma
| is very bad and _does not_ require heavy, prolonged exposure --
| brief and /or low-level exposure has been shown to cause it
| too. Additionally, inhaled asbestos fibers can remain in the
| lungs and pleural lining for decades. In contrast, the human
| body can expel wood dust over time.
| remote_phone wrote:
| > mesothelioma is very bad and does not require heavy,
| prolonged exposure -- brief or low-level exposures have been
| linked to mesothelioma.
|
| Link?
| CharlesW wrote:
| Lemen, R. A. (2004). Asbestos in brakes: exposure and risk
| of disease. American journal of industrial medicine, 45(3),
| 229-237.
| remote_phone wrote:
| A more recent and substantial study disproves that idea.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4243788/
|
| Workers with heavy exposure to asbestos have a similar
| risk of lung cancer as persons with low or no exposure 20
| years after the exposure has ended.
| gpm wrote:
| What exactly do you think that study contradicts? It
| seems to show that asbestos increases the risk of lung
| cancer for about two decades. That seems to support the
| comment you're saying it disproves, not disprove it.
| atdrummond wrote:
| One of the sad things about the massive increase in popularity
| of engineered quartz countertops has been the massive increase
| in 20-something year olds getting silicosis and needing lung
| transplants.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7810008/
| asdff wrote:
| Just to be clear about your source for other readers. It
| discusses the workers who produce these counter tops versus
| people merely having them in the home (what I originally
| inferred with your comment), it says the mean age of onset
| was 43 years old, and that 79% of the workers with silicosis
| did not use personal protective equipment.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Brodeur
| bookofjoe wrote:
| https://archive.ph/DCQJ5
| NoZebra120vClip wrote:
| My maternal grandfather was a pipe fitter for the railroad. He
| suffered many years from lung cancer. I remember when they
| brought in the hospital bed and oxygen tanks so he could suffer
| and die at home, with my grandmother always by his side.
|
| My father worked in asbestos abatement projects, along with
| cleaning up other kinds of HAZMAT. I doubt that this is a mere
| coincidence.
| uptown wrote:
| My dad is dying from mesothelioma. He was first diagnosed a few
| years ago, and after surgery and chemotherapy, was in remission
| for a period of time. He's now been fighting an aggressive second
| round where immunotherapy has proven ineffective - instead
| triggering colitis. He's gone from an active and vibrant man to
| someone who can barely summon the energy to move from his bed to
| a chair. Every few weeks he has paracentesis to drain multiple
| liters of fluid from his abdomen. He has no appetite and the food
| he does eat has almost no taste.
|
| He's nearly 80, and has had many points of exposure throughout
| his life. He's mentally as sharp as he's ever been, but his body
| is failing him as he fights this disease.
|
| His remaining time in this world is likely measured in days, or
| weeks.
|
| He's alive but not living. It's a condition I wouldn't wish on
| anyone.
| arrosenberg wrote:
| My dad just passed in a similar fashion from a different
| cancer. He was fairly sharp until the last month when spiraled
| out. I'm sorry you are going through it.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| I worked for an attorney that had a few doz old+active
| mesothelioma cases on the shelf. About every third year, each
| would get a check for ~$12.
| oblib wrote:
| I started working with asbestos while modifying vans for
| handicapped people to drive back in the early 70s. We used it as
| a heat shield when we lowered the floors in vans for people in
| wheelchairs to drive.
|
| I would watch guys I worked with stand in a cloud of dust cutting
| up 4'x8' sheets of asbestos. I'd offer them my respirator and
| they'd refuse. They considered that to be unmanly and made a
| point to give me shit over that.
|
| A few years into that work I convinced the engineers who'd
| designed those asbestos heat shields to use galvanized sheet
| metal, which is what the OEM used and we removed. It was less
| expensive, easier to fabricate and install, and it worked a lot
| better.
|
| I owe Paul Brodeur a lot, and so do many others.
| Animats wrote:
| No mention of "Currents of Death".
| lioeters wrote:
| Nor the briefly titled, "The Great Power-Line Cover-Up: How the
| Utilities and Government Are Trying to Hide the Cancer Hazard
| Posed by Electromagnetic Fields".
| alex_duf wrote:
| Never heard of these, should they have been mentioned?
| lioeters wrote:
| He wrote another book titled, "The Zapping of America:
| Microwaves, Their Deadly Risk, and the Coverup".
|
| I'd never heard of these either. These other books about
| microwaves and power lines, the titles seem a bit too
| dramatic and click-baity, which makes me skeptical. But
| kinda curious if there's any evidence of such coverups.
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