[HN Gopher] Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free
___________________________________________________________________
Zero Motorcycles makes its service manuals free
Author : 1970-01-01
Score : 234 points
Date : 2023-08-11 04:33 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.hagerty.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.hagerty.com)
| i_k_k wrote:
| Off topic, but does anyone make simple electric motorcycles? You
| know, a frame, battery, motor, etc., but without a connected app
| and all the goo that comes with it.
| odiroot wrote:
| BMW electric line?
| razemio wrote:
| They have a different name in the US, but in Germany the bike
| is called tinbot Esum pro. I am very satisfied. Have driven
| over 3000km in half a year. No issues so far. They aren't
| powerful but still fun to drive. Coming from a Kawasaki Z900
| which was to expensive for me to justify. You can buy a tinbot
| for 5000EUR brand new. They have a range of 80 km full throttle
| in the summer and about 60 km in the winter.
| userbinator wrote:
| You can probably find plenty of them on Alibaba.
| i_k_k wrote:
| Well I'll be. Now how 'bout a simple, quality bike? :)
| bombcar wrote:
| Beware the alibaba battery packs deciding to burst into
| flame.
| bastawhiz wrote:
| I've got a Zero and an Energica and neither really uses the app
| (the energica app is actually too old to install on my Pixel
| 6). The only compelling use for the Zero app is to download
| bike log data and upgrade the firmware.
| toyg wrote:
| Maybe Maeving? They're kinda proud of being barebones.
| dabluecaboose wrote:
| Well, that's very cool and was interesting to read about.
| Shame it's not available in the US yet
| IgorPartola wrote:
| You can always build one yourself. Buy an older bike for the
| frame and VIN, swap in a motor and a battery pack along with
| the rest of the controller stuff and you are good to go.
| bartvk wrote:
| Energica does not have a connected app. Also, the service
| manual is simple to come by (Facebook group).
| russellbeattie wrote:
| It's going to take a while for people to get used to tinkering
| with electric vehicles vs ICEs. There's lots of great ways to get
| yourself fried in those manuals. I could totally see myself
| skipping the "High Voltage Discharging procedure" (despite the
| warning on every section involving the battery) just to make a
| "quick adjustment" and becoming a statistic.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| I bought a moto last year, and looked a little at Zero and at
| Sondors, but ended up just getting a small-displacement
| conventional bike (Royal Enfield Classic 350). It was cheap, gets
| excellent mileage (75 MPG), and has sufficient power for urban
| surface-street usage (it tops out at like 65, but honestly it's
| happier below 50).
|
| I strongly recommend this path, though parts availability with RE
| mean I probably suggest you look more at other low-displacement
| bikes, like the Honda Rebel, and let RE figure out its North
| American supply chain issues for a while.
| turdprincess wrote:
| Good move, but another thing this brand does is charge you a
| monthly subscription to unlock the full battery range on your
| bike. If you don't pay, you lug around a dead weight extra
| battery you cannot access. Overall this brand is notoriously
| unfriendly to consumers.
| sardine5 wrote:
| Not sure that's fair - the battery packs come with a 5 year
| warranty. If you increase the 'full range' - you're increasing
| the odds you'll need to claim on that, which needs paying for.
| nsvd wrote:
| If they was true, they could stipulate that enabling full
| range would void the warranty. This is obviously a cash grab.
| ajkjk wrote:
| ... Does.. It?
|
| No it doesn't.
| stevenhuang wrote:
| it does, generally the deeper lithium ion batteries are
| discharged, the higher the likelihood of dendrites forming
| on the anode.
|
| basically the more time that is spent not in the fully
| discharged state, the longer li-ion will last.
|
| (this doesn't mean you want to leave it 100% charged
| either, that can also damage the pack; if leaving for
| extended non-use, leaving it at ~50% state of discharge is
| the generally recommended advice)
| ajkjk wrote:
| The disagreement is not with the science but with the
| idea that "because the company will have to honor more
| warranties, it is okay for them to charge more for
| features of the things they have already sold consumers".
| Maybe they should make less money, instead. Perhaps they
| can split the difference by amending the warranty to take
| into account the health of the battery. I don't really
| care! I (we. everyone.) hate a world where people retain
| control over things that they have ostensibly sold you
| and, predictably, scummily, attempt to extract more
| profit from them.
| randunel wrote:
| I'd been considering getting a Zero versus other brands for
| over a year, and you comment got me to reconsider, thanks! I
| wasn't are of this scummy behaviour of theirs until now.
| [deleted]
| fit2rule wrote:
| [dead]
| Lucasoato wrote:
| Oh my god, this should be illegal. What an environmental waste
| to block what hardware can do for business reasons, is there
| any global lobby fighting bullshit like this?
| bombcar wrote:
| This kind of thing has existed forever. Cars are starting to
| do it, too, as it gets cheaper to make them all the same and
| disable some features in software.
|
| HEVs also use only about 50% of the battery to reduce wear on
| it (go from 30 to 80 charge, no more).
| macintux wrote:
| From the other comments, it sounds like it's _less_ of an
| environmental waste. By not allowing it to be fully charged,
| the battery will last longer.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I wonder how this works in practice. Is this, in practice,
| equivalent to some laptops' and newer androids' setting of
| never fully charging the battery in order to improve the
| overall battery lifetime if you know you won't use the 100%
| anyway? Or is it just dead weight which is never touched and
| you just use fewer cells, but always the same?
| cowthulhu wrote:
| It's literal dead weight. It's especially bad because the
| bikes already don't have great ranges (and the estimated
| ranges are often pretty optimistic), and extra dead weight
| cuts into your limited range even further.
| hgomersall wrote:
| Do you have specific knowledge on this?
|
| I'd be surprised if it was literally dead weight. It's much
| easier to design a software control system that uses a
| common set of cells and caps the full charge than one that
| switches different cell blocks in depending on what's
| enabled.
| dmurray wrote:
| Is it? It seems like the simplest of circuits to
| disconnect one cell from the rest.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Every cells have to hold roughly same charge for the
| concept of battery pack to work. Else the weaker cell
| becomes overcharged as others take in the charge, and (in
| the absolute worst case) the entire thing goes kaboom.
| Not worth doing.
| nmelkozerov wrote:
| It is not as simple as it seems. If you connect the
| "unused" cell in a series, it could alter the battery's
| output voltage by as much as 4.2 volts, which has the
| potential to damage the voltage regulator.
|
| On the other hand, if you connect the "unused" cell in
| parallel, it's absolutely crucial that it holds the same
| charge as the other cells at the time of connection. This
| is because the parallel pack's voltage will level out,
| leading to a substantial flow of current (essentially
| causing rapid charging/discharging of the cell). This can
| result in a fire or even a battery explosion if the cell
| voltages are too different.
|
| All in all, physically detaching a battery might not be
| the best approach. The cells will experience different
| levels of wear, and variations in internal resistance
| will lead to problems with cell balancing and longer
| charging times.
| function_seven wrote:
| No that would be more complex. You'd have to add a relay
| and something to control it. Much easier to just map 80%
| to "100%" on the display and in the BMS.
| numpad0 wrote:
| You can't mix and match batteries varying in wear, or address
| and charge arbitrary inividual cells, so it has to be just
| lower state of charge, e.g. 80% true charge displayed as
| full.
| scrappyjoe wrote:
| I am not disagreeing with you - I believe that you should be
| able to use something you bought however you wish - but I think
| it is worth noting that the lower you allow depth of discharge,
| the more cycles you can squeeze out of a pack. So it's not dead
| weight per se, its trading weight and range for pack longevity,
| which equates to economy over the life of the motorcycle.
| lelandbatey wrote:
| Eh, no it's not. It's getting a monthly fee out of what could
| be a button or switch, a monthly fee that could be just an
| unpaid, free to use feature of the bike.
|
| This is some serious "c-suite message to help you fall asleep
| at night territory".
| acters wrote:
| It's the monthly fee I have a problem with. Unless the
| monthly fee guarantees a new pack if the battery
| degradation from an increased DoC, then it is good. As it
| currently stands, it is literally a jerk move on the
| company's side.
| ratg13 wrote:
| Even the phone in your pocket isn't using it's full battery
| potential (by design). You can hack this with software to
| "get more out of your battery", but really all you're doing
| is shortening the length of your battery life and creating
| a fire hazard.
| tjoff wrote:
| It's the other way around, you can hack it and get longer
| battery life. But that is not an option because phone
| manufacturers prefer that their non-user-replacable
| batteries get worn out.
| pdpi wrote:
| Right. "By design" is doing all the work there, because
| the design goals are different.
|
| Phones are designed that way as a way to prolong the
| longevity of the phone. This bike is designed this way as
| a way to extract a subscription. These two things are not
| the same.
| kiddico wrote:
| He understands it just fine.
|
| He doesn't care how long the total life span is. It's
| perfectly capable of it (access to the option can be paid
| for so it's not equivalent to a hack) and he wants to go
| further on a single charge, so this is a perfectly
| reasonable tradeoff to make.
|
| Just let the user make that choice without an absurd
| subscription.
| roland35 wrote:
| Having worked in hardware, I can imagine most customers
| would 1) push the button, then 2) complain that their
| battery performance is reduced.
| swifthesitation wrote:
| > most customers would 1) push the button, then 2)
| complain that their battery performance is reduced.
|
| In this scenario, have them do step 3..
|
| 3) push the button a second time.
| oefrha wrote:
| "This limitation is good for you! Never mind we're charging
| extra to remove it!" Yeah, I'd be a sucker to believe that.
| liendolucas wrote:
| > Good move, but another thing this brand does is charge you a
| monthly subscription to unlock the full battery range on your
| bike.
|
| Fuck Zero Motorbikes and their subscriptions!
| willi59549879 wrote:
| subscriptions just put me off. i'd rather wait for a good
| product that doesn't need subscriptions
| IgorPartola wrote:
| Harley Live Wire seems like fun.
| lockhouse wrote:
| I'm fine with subscriptions if it provides value to me as a
| customer. If it enables a consistent stream of new content or
| features, or covers things like cloud storage where there is
| clearly an ongoing cost to the company to provide a service
| then I understand and accept the fees. Otherwise, it's just
| rent seeking.
| blueprint wrote:
| link? I'm very familiar with Zeros and I've never heard this..
| winddude wrote:
| This should be the norm.
| goku12 wrote:
| It was the norm. I wonder if the HN population is young enough
| to have not seen them.
| RankingMember wrote:
| Service manuals being free was the norm? I had to pay for the
| one for my Japanese motorcycle from 1982 and on every other
| vehicle I've owned, unless you mean bootlegging on car
| forums. I don't know anyone who's gotten free service manuals
| direct from the manufacturer.
| userbinator wrote:
| You could borrow a physical copy from the local library,
| which often had a huge number of them.
|
| There might still be automotive service manual torrents
| floating around with content which was partially a result
| of my efforts when I was in the "bookz scene" over 2
| decades ago.
| RankingMember wrote:
| One of the bummers of the decline of automotive forums is
| the reduction in availability of the bootleg copies. So
| many are wastelands of broken links these days.
| userbinator wrote:
| Do you really think automotive forums are in decline?
| RankingMember wrote:
| I can only speak for the ones I visit, which are
| primarily for Japanese vehicles: there's been a
| noticeable decline in post frequency and the info that is
| there has gone stale/is full of broken pic
| references/links.
|
| On one of them, it's gotten comically bad, where easily
| >90% of new posts are from spambots, and it takes days
| for them to be removed after I report them.
|
| Subreddits and Facebook are much more active
| comparatively, and that's a bummer in my opinion.
| goku12 wrote:
| > Service manuals being free was the norm?
|
| Yes. I had a manual for a scooter (which was more similar
| to a motorbike than to a skateboard) complete with 3D
| exploded-views of every part.
| liendolucas wrote:
| I'm still wondering why there's no regulation on this, forcing
| manufacturers to hand-in both the user and service manuals. I own
| a Kawasaki motorbike and tried to get its service manual just to
| understand a bit more about it, and is impossible to get it at
| this point unless I pay Kawasaki 100EUR for its printed version
| (a fucking ripoff). It doesn't cost them anything to release PDFs
| as a courtesy to its customers.
| IgorPartola wrote:
| I have almost always had luck with searching the web for
| "Kawasaki vn800 service manual pdf". The hardest manual to get
| was for my Harley but for $20 I was able to buy a scanned PDF
| from a site that's almost certainly illegal but delivered
| exactly what I needed.
| liendolucas wrote:
| Yeah, I think for particular models it can be easy to find
| them. But for others no luck at all. My guess is that maybe
| after few years they can be found. In particular for the
| z650rs I wasn't able to get any good results.
| post_break wrote:
| Ok but does it require any special software to modify or change
| parts?
| kimburgess wrote:
| This is great news, and somewhat unfortunate something so benign
| requires celebration.
|
| I used to ride a Zero SR. It was a phenomenal bike but also
| completely unserviceable in Australia. I ended up reverse
| engineering the log protocol [1] to get a sense of how it was
| performing and maintain what I could myself. It was horribly
| painful, inefficient and completely avoidable spend of time.
|
| Hackability for devices is one thing but when you straddle an
| energy source that propels you, a fragile meat sack, at speed imo
| it's essential to have absolute confidence in how the machine
| behaves.
|
| [1]: https://github.com/zero-motorcycle-community/zero-log-parser
| porknubbins wrote:
| Are there any OEMs whose service manuals are hard to find? I
| restore cars and motorcycles and have never had trouble finding a
| pdf or hard copy for around $20. Its good that they are doing
| this though a lot of the secrets I'd want to know about an
| electric motorcycle are about the ECU when that software is some
| of the most tightly guarded of any.
| dharmab wrote:
| Volvo's data is only available via digital subscription.
|
| BMW motorcycle data is not available at all to consumers
| anymore, only certified techs.
|
| Suzuki doesn't publish data, but Clymer usually fills the gap.
|
| By contrast, Honda will still sell you some really great dead
| tree manuals on their motorcycles.
| Gracana wrote:
| KTM, too. My buddy got a 450 XC-F and he was able to buy a
| service manual directly from them.
| whartung wrote:
| BMW no longer sells service manuals for their bikes.
|
| There are, essentially, bootlegs on line, but my understanding
| is that while before they had a dedicated Window application
| for their manuals, they're moving to an online only system, and
| only for dealers.
|
| So, while there are manuals floating around now, who knows how
| that will go moving forward.
|
| Obviously, this will be a key sticking point in the future with
| the "right to repair" laws trickling through the state
| legislatures.
| dharmab wrote:
| Yup, exactly. I was one of the last mortals to get a copy of
| the software for my BMW motorcycle and now field emails from
| riders worldwide looking for service data.
| koolba wrote:
| What's the rationale for not releasing a manual? To force you
| to take into a dealer for service? It's not like they have to
| make a separate manual. It has to exist for the dealer anyway
| right?
| zer8k wrote:
| The $200/hr service charge most european motorcycle dealers
| charge. There are two things I can't do myself.
| Particularly, bleeding the ABS (which requires the dealer
| tool) and re-shimming the engine (which also requires a
| dealer tool).
|
| My local stealership wants exactly $200/hr for every
| service. An oil change for my motorcycle is $300, a brake
| job is $650. Mind you parts for these jobs are in the mid-
| to-low XX's. It's ALL service fees. Reshimming the engine
| (once every 15k miles or so) costs a minimum of $1200 going
| up to $2000 if the engine needs significant adjustment.
| I've shimmed sportbikes for years and 6-8 hours worth of
| work is _insane_. I can do it in a few hours excluding the
| time to go get beer.
|
| It's borderline theft. "Stealership" is not tongue in
| cheek. I am seriously considering trading in my motorcycle
| for cash (even at a loss) and re-buying an old R100GS.
| midasuni wrote:
| > 6-8 hours worth of work is insane. I can do it in a few
| hours
|
| So what is "a few hours"?
| dharmab wrote:
| Depends on the bike. On a single or p-twin I could knock
| it out in under 90 minutes in my garage.
| zer8k wrote:
| Less than 3. Job's simple when you don't charge by a
| book. I am not even particularly adept at it. Just
| familiar. Someone with thousands of bikes under their
| belt could probably reshim an engine in an hour.
| dharmab wrote:
| > Reshimming the engine (once every 15k miles or so)
| costs a minimum of $1200 going up to $2000 if the engine
| needs significant adjustment.
|
| Wow, your dealer is really raking their customers. Mine
| charges about $200 to check valves on a parallel twin.
| ce4 wrote:
| That depends on the number of cylinders, valves per
| cylinder, and so on. Your parallel twin is probably
| easier to service (accessability of valve covers, valve
| mechanism). Some designs require the removal of the gas
| tank and even camshafts (eg Suzuki V-Strom).
|
| (Old) Ducatis are also a pain with the desmodromic valves
| (i.e. springless valves). Some of their valves have 0,0
| clearance and the mechanic needs to hone down shims to an
| exact fit. Also the reshimming needs to be redone on
| older Ducs after only a few thousand kilometers/miles, or
| annually.
|
| In contrast, BMWs older air/oilcooled boxer engines are a
| joy to service, easiest accessability (cylinder heads
| stick out sideways), only 3 tools needed for adjusting
| valve clearances (two types of Torx/allen keys and a
| feeler gauge set), 20mins of work or less depending on
| your routine.
| dharmab wrote:
| MY 90 minute number includes pulling the fuel tank, valve
| cover, camshafts and other body panels from my Suzuki.
| It's pretty quick if you're familiar with the procedure.
| I can have that bike torn down with all body panels and
| subframe off in about 10 minutes if I'm in a hurry.
| ce4 wrote:
| Answering dharmab's response
|
| Ugh, pulling and especially re-inserting the camshaft
| shouldnt be done in a hurry. At least from my experience
| with the V-Strom's V-engine. Needs to be cooled down and
| insertion of the camshaft needs proper care (no dinging
| of the bearing shells) and one must make sure to not skip
| a tooth at the geartrain/chain.
| dharmab wrote:
| I mean, I take my time with the cams, but it's not rocket
| science. There's timing marks to help line everything up
| and I snap a pic with my phone before taking them out.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I think it may depend on brands and models. When I take
| my specific Honda in for the scheduled maintenance, the
| dealer seems to apply a standard, Honda-dictated price,
| which is the same at all the dealerships I've visited.
| This usually includes the labor and replacement for the
| parts which the manual says need replacing on a schedule,
| except for fluids. If I need tires, brake pads, that's
| separate.
|
| I know this is a fixed price because last time I took it
| in, it was a "bigger" service, where they had to check
| valve clearances. But apparently something went wrong
| when they tried to take apart something (I forget the
| details) so they had to work much longer than expected on
| it. In the end, I didn't have to pay more than I had
| expected, taking it in.
|
| Now, all this isn't to say it's cheap. I was horrified
| with the prices: it often costs more than my Mercedes'
| service at a Mercedes dealership.
| LispSporks22 wrote:
| Jesus that is brutal. A dealer tool for bleeding abs? I'm
| holding onto my KLR forever apparently.
| zer8k wrote:
| Yep, you can bleed it physically but the system will
| refuse to re-activate the ABS until you trigger something
| in the ROM. Absolutely insane. You can't get even order
| the tool directly from Triumph to do it because you need
| to be some kind of verified auto mechanic for them.
|
| Even the oil change was a pain. I had to quite literally
| crush the dealer oil filter and break it off in pieces
| with a pipe wrench because it was shaped in such a way
| you needed a special tool to get a grip on it. I called
| the dealer, the tool was $180 and would take 3 weeks to
| ship. It only worked with Triumph brand oil filters
| (probably white labeled semi-custom K&N's) and they
| wanted $60 for a filter (vs. $14 for a K&N at the local
| bike parts store).
|
| Even my best universal clamps + duct tape + sandpaper
| couldn't hold a grip on the stupid filter. Several trips
| to the local auto parts store trading wrenches back and
| forth until I said fuck it and went to Home Depot. Lucky
| for me a K&N oil filter fit exactly (dummies still used a
| standard thread for the oil filter port)...otherwise that
| would've been somewhat hard to explain. Even the crush
| washer for the drain plug was 10x as expensive... ended
| up taking the old one to Ace and finding a replacement
| for 10 cents. The only thing that was about equal in
| price was the recommended oil which I was able to score
| on sale at Walmart but otherwise would've been a wash.
|
| As you can tell I can not stop complaining about this
| stupid thing. Do yourself a favor and avoid Euro
| motorcycles.
| junaru wrote:
| > Do yourself a favor and avoid Euro motorcycles.
|
| I was considering triumph as my first bike but after
| reading this its a hard pass.
|
| To your knowledge are there any brands known for being
| DIY friendly on current models (read being able to
| provide/sell offline service manuals)?
| dharmab wrote:
| Honda is pretty decent. Suzuki doesn't sell service data
| but the info you need is readily available from Clymer.
| Royal Enfield is fantastic for service data.
| zer8k wrote:
| Most Japanese bikes are very user friendly. Even the
| newer ones aren't terrible to work on. If you want the
| easiest mix of technology and ease of repair shoot for a
| Japanese motorcycles before 2014-ish.
| avar wrote:
| Are you talking about this tool, which you can get even
| cheaper elsewhere:
| https://triumphdirect.co.uk/products/oil-filter-
| wrench-t3880...
| SoftTalker wrote:
| For modern vehicles, the dealers really don't use manuals
| anymore. They connect their proprietary diagnostic
| computer, it runs all the tests and figures out what is
| wrong, and tells the mechanic what to replace or adjust.
|
| You can sometimes find bootlegs of these computers
| (generally a "tough" Windows laptop with software and
| connecting cables). They usually don't have the latest and
| greatest version of the software, but if your car is
| older/out of warranty it's generally covered. I don't know
| if they get them from a recycle stream or dealer mechanics
| sell their old ones or how it works.
| dharmab wrote:
| This doesn't make any sense. Many regular issues are not
| diagnosable by computer. I have legacy access to some
| current BMW service data and it does not behave the way
| you describe at all- I only have to whip out the scanner
| for certain electrical and computer issues, and to update
| service schedules.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Everything on a modern car runs through the computer.
| Climate control, entertainment systems, windows, lights,
| seats, various driver aids such as cruise control, lane-
| departure, blind spot warnings, hands-free driving,
| automatic/antilock braking, traction control, etc. as
| well as the engine and transmisison. Sure, something like
| a failing wheel bearing would still be diagnosed by the
| mechanic, but they need the scanners for most of the
| problems on a modern car.
| dharmab wrote:
| Oh, I thought you were talking about motorcycles. My BMW
| motorcycle has only 2 of the 11 features you mentioned :)
| alamortsubite wrote:
| You're right, but just to have fun with the example you
| gave- some wheel bearings now incorporate a wheel speed
| sensor. So even those might, in fact, be first diagnosed
| by the computer, depending on the failure mode.
| whartung wrote:
| The computer diagnostics don't tell the technician how to
| do the replacement. The service manual has all of the
| procedures, parts lists, and special tools necessary for
| the job.
| dharmab wrote:
| A legitimate reason is to move the service data online so
| it can be continuously updated and accessible from a web
| browser instead of the chunky Windows app they were using
| before straight out of 1995.
|
| But other manufacturers who do this make the data available
| to consumers via AllData or similar services. BMW does not,
| presumably to make more money on service.
| porknubbins wrote:
| That is really bad I did not know that. I assume it goes for
| automobiles too. Have no plans to get a new BMW bike but I
| will definitely take that into consideration in the future.
| lasc4r wrote:
| Do they not go out of their way to make it difficult? I had to
| scrounge google which led me to a forum thread for Triumph bike
| manuals. Only managed to get a link to a website associated
| with Triumph where they let you pay on a per day basis to look
| at manuals. Spent almost an hour making folders and manually
| downloading every individual section.
|
| My takeaway is that they want their bikes to get serviced at
| dealers rather than allow people to more easily work on their
| own bikes.
| zer8k wrote:
| Oh yeah.
|
| Triumph in particular is notorious for this. For most bikes
| made beyond 2018 or so there are nearly no 3rd party manuals
| available. You have to pay, quite literally by the page or by
| the hour, to view the manuals on their website.
|
| For older bikes its often easier. Clymer's has a substantial
| library that are often better than even the dealer mechanic
| book. I'm the mechanic among my group of friends and newer
| bikes are exceedingly difficult to not only work on, but also
| find proper manuals for.
| jve wrote:
| I waited for a technical thread to ask this question: where can
| DIYers that want to fix their own car get a manual with wiring
| diagrams, service bullettins, troubleshooting procedures
| without paying alot in subscription (hundreds per year)?
| mike_d wrote:
| Haynes or Chilton manuals (they are the same company now).
| You can pick them up at auto parts stores, Amazon, or buy
| PDFs online.
|
| They are based on the official tech manuals and only cover
| the stuff that is within reason of a home or small shop
| mechanic, and don't require you to have manufacturer specific
| tools in most cases.
| userbinator wrote:
| Your mention of "restore" suggests mainly older models, which
| certainly did have far more widely-distributed service
| literature and are simpler than newer vehicles.
| porknubbins wrote:
| Yes I mainly work on older vehicles which are simpler. I did
| find a pdf on my 2015 Hyundai and have bought others of
| similar age off ebay though.
| winddude wrote:
| More rare and special edition cars. Like a number of the SRT
| cars didn't used to be covered in the regular dodge service
| manuals.
| deet wrote:
| I pay like $8/month for access to my 2021 Triumph's service
| manual.
|
| As far as I know they keep it as an interactive website so that
| PDFs are hard to make.
|
| I haven't found a good copy yet but it's also possible that I'm
| just not as good at searching for pirated content as back in
| the old torrenting days (or perhaps just less motivated)
| dharmab wrote:
| PDF export is tricky so I usually take screenshots and
| transcribe info into my own notebook.
| vGPU wrote:
| Just write a screenshot -> next page macro
| benoliver999 wrote:
| I have a 2003 Citroen and it's easy to find the service manual
| but very hard to use it.
|
| It's not a PDF you can just flip through, it's software.
|
| You have to run it in a windows XP VM, following a very
| specific set of installation instructions. Getting locked out
| for no reason is very common (so you just boot a backup of the
| VM).
|
| Not for the faint of heart.
| mintplant wrote:
| I acquired an old Sony CMT-EX1 CD player a while back and was
| tinkering around with it. I found the service manual online and
| was blown away. There are pinouts! _Block diagrams_ [0] for the
| PCBs! Capacitor inventories! I wish we still did this for
| consumer hardware.
|
| [0] https://servlib.com/sony/audio/cmt-ex1-hcd-
| ex1.html?start=29
| kushie wrote:
| this is out of nowhere but if anyone can help me find a
| service manual (not owners manual) for a Yamaha Clavinova
| CLP-50 i would be in deep gratitude. a few octaves
| intermittently don't work and i'd love to tinker
| sobkas wrote:
| It's service manual, at least it says so
| https://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_clp-50_sm.pdf/download.html
| notjulianjaynes wrote:
| https://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_clp-50_sm.pdf/download.html
| sobkas wrote:
| Making old technology viable instead of buying new one, or
| even worse tinkering with it and unlocking or adding new
| functionality corporations reserved for higher end models,
| professional equipment or just outright didn't want to
| implement assured it will never happen. In the past only few
| tinkerers actually cared about this. Now everything is on the
| internet and everyone have access to it. This is a season for
| planed obsolescence after all.
|
| I'm not saying it's good, it's just what it is.
| mk_stjames wrote:
| Japanese service manuals for electronics, especially ones
| starting in the early 80's when the printing quality started
| getting really good, are a sight to behold. In the era before
| the EDA software did everything, the annotated schematics and
| PCB board layouts in the manuals are gorgeous, especially
| those by Sony and Matsushita / Panasonic.
|
| When the EDA tools started making the prints fully
| automatically and all the tables and notes just became
| automated outputs to PDF... it kinda killed a bit of the
| artistry that went into the layouts of the prints. I also
| feel that the care and choosing the fonts / lettering styles
| / etc. have become eschewed in favor of just putting out
| whatever the defaults are from current software without care
| of adjustment. It's why all published schematics these days
| look alike, and boring by comparison.
|
| The early Walkman manuals are a good example of this:
|
| https://archive.org/details/wm-f15_202004/SONYWM-
| DD_service_...
|
| The perfect little isometric views of the special isolated
| components in boxes along the outside, the shading of the
| traces on the PCB....
| robomartin wrote:
| > killed a bit of the artistry that went into the layouts
|
| Yes. Absolutely.
|
| Sadly, EDA tools like KiCad and Altium (two of the ones I
| use most often) make absolutely ugly schematics. Just
| horrible looking stuff. I always thought this had to do
| with engineers who did not necessarily come up drawing
| schematics by hand.
|
| In the later-70's to early 80's --and a little beyond-- you
| could pickup magazines like Byte and Popular Electronics
| and see beautifully drawn schematics that were well laid-
| out and easy to understand. Same with data books. I built
| lots of projects from those magazines back then. Later on,
| professionally, I developed a schematic drafting style that
| mimicked the beautiful schematics from those publications.
|
| CAD requires an effort. You can produce great looking
| schematics. It depends on how you choose to produce your
| libraries. We make libraries that make great looking
| schematics. The difference in legibility is, in my opinion,
| worth the time we spend creating good looking symbols and
| parts.
| nicbou wrote:
| Suzuki. 100EUR or more, and only if you ask your dealership
| politely. Same for Renault. I had to find a torrent somewhere.
| Daneel_ wrote:
| It's impossible to get them for a modern Volvo, for example. I
| couldn't even get them to provide me with a wiring diagram for
| the rear fuse block so I could wire in a trailer brake
| controller. I managed it via inspection, but it was really
| poor.
| nocterro wrote:
| It's possibly because I'm looking for Australian models and
| it's a smaller market, but I've never had much luck finding
| service manuals free or paid for my vehicles. Do you have any
| tips for where to search?
|
| I should say specific examples are the Ford Territory and the
| Great Wall Steed (Wingle 6 in the domestic market).
| porknubbins wrote:
| Those are models I haven't heard of. The best place used to
| be enthusiast forums but in the past decade that has switched
| to Facebook groups for a lot of vehicles.
| hpeinar wrote:
| The more I get problems with different machinery (chainsaw,
| raider lawnmower, waterpump, powerwasher) I've really started
| thinking more and more how every piece of equipment should
| automatically come with a service manual included which would
| also have all the bits and pieces clearly stated and catalogued.
| I've seen some of these manuals not being a detailed as I hoped.
| For context, I'm in Europe.
|
| For an example I needed new lifting chain for the raider
| lawnmower and it was an ordeal finding the correct chain and
| making it correct length without such manual. With manual I'd
| expect it to take 5 minutes to find the correct piece, it's size,
| lenght and required stress endurance level.
|
| It's 2023, doesn't have to be physical (or could for some extra
| buck), but at least have one available on your website.
|
| I'm thinking about starting to ask for it for everything I buy...
| Not really hoping to get it every time but still...
| lockhouse wrote:
| The problem is that so many things have become unrepairable by
| design.
| bombcar wrote:
| I check the website under "service/support" before I buy just
| to get an idea what's out there.
| deviantbit wrote:
| Blows my mind they didn't provide the service manual for free. I
| raced KTM off-road for 30+ years, and every bike came with the
| service manual, complete diagrams, and product replacement part
| numbers. Every time I pulled out on my KTM 990 Adventure R I had
| the manual with me as well.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Yeah but there's nothing to break or fix on a Zero! I needed all
| those Honda service manuals over the years because honing
| cylinder walls and fitting rings and grinding valves and bedding
| in crank bearings are things you sometimes have to do. What's
| complicated about an electric motorcycle?
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| >Yeah but there's nothing to break or fix on a Zero!
|
| ...........?
|
| Wheel bearings, axle grease, wheel alignment, fork seals,
| suspension bearings, head bearings, chain/belt, sprockets,
| brake system (pads, piston, caliper, seals, master cylinder,
| fluid, rotors), tires, cooling system. Plus the classics of
| levers, hoses, bent handles bars or forks, stripping bolts,
| broken kick stands, etc. None of that goes away with an
| electric bike.
|
| And you do need to do inspections on electrical connectors at
| minimum. Being electric doesn't solve small design flaws.
| Suzuki infamously made the green connector of death. The
| headlamps and ignition switch on the same connector, which
| inevitably burns out due to resistance in the connection
| growing due to corrosion which eventually causes it to melt.
| Saw a similar problem with a Kawasaki with corrosion
| interfering with kill switch circuit.
| bastawhiz wrote:
| Not to be pedantic or invalidate your point, but most (all?)
| Zero bikes are air cooled, and they have zero hoses. Brakes
| get like an order of magnitude less wear thanks to regen, and
| the only fluid is brakes (well, and the battery, but if you
| find yourself in contact with it, the bike is a loss).
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| Fair enough on the cooling, but brakes I disagree, at least
| with my riding style.
|
| I do most my braking with a combination of front and engine
| braking. I usually don't touch the rear until either I'm
| close to a full stop or if I'm doing slow speed maneuvers.
| So unless Zero's got regen on the front wheel, I don't see
| there being too much different between the two.
| bastawhiz wrote:
| We definitely have very different riding styles. I keep
| the regen cranked all the way up, and I can get fifteen
| miles across the city without touching either brake. I'll
| occasionally use the rear brake for trail braking.
|
| The regen on my Energica is definitely a lot stronger
| than on my Zero, though--it's a lot more like an electric
| car where you can keep your foot over the accelerator
| almost all the time.
|
| Between the two bikes, I've got roughly ten thousand
| miles and all four brake pads sit at ~85%.
| jeffbee wrote:
| There's nothing tricky about fixing a brake, though. It's
| a portable skill from one motorcycle to another. Unlike,
| say, the tolerances for oval and taper of a cylinder.
|
| I get that there's still going to be screws to turn on an
| electric bike, but that's going to be about what it boils
| down to: a list of torque specs.
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| > There's nothing tricky about fixing a brake, though.
| It's a portable skill from one motorcycle to another.
| Unlike, say, the tolerances for oval and taper of a
| cylinder.
|
| Harder then you might think. I've seen someone not
| install the pads and have the rotor grind down into the
| caliper itself. Then installed the pad on the broken
| caliper and getting so crooked that it eventually warped
| the rotor into a dinner plate. IIRC the edge of the was
| about 1mm or 2mm out of line from the center of the
| rotor.
|
| Swinging back on topic though, I do disagree slightly on
| the premise that the service manual is just a glorified
| page of torque specs. Speaking personally, fixing
| something isn't usually that difficult. Time consuming,
| demanding in focus, and wise to be cautious but generally
| speaking the procedure is usually well laid out.
|
| What's hard is diagnosing the problem in the first place,
| determining what the fix is, and then locating the
| necessary parts or suppliers for those parts. The service
| manual's usually invaluable for the first bit.
|
| Just to give a car example: You have a car who's
| instrument cluster who's center LCD that's stuck at
| minimum brightness. Is it a problem with the instrument
| cluster, the dimmer switch, or the PWM signal generator
| that controls the cluster's brightness?
|
| As it turns out, someone thought about that. The service
| manual listed out a self test diagnostic for the
| instrument cluster; with engine off and key out, hold the
| odometer reset for 5 seconds, insert the key and turn to
| the on position. It will light up every light to full
| brightness and disregard the input PWM signal.
|
| Who could have figured that out without the manual
| listing that procedure? I probably couldn't. I'd probably
| be reduced to parts cannon.
|
| Electronics aren't immune to manufacturing defects,
| design flaws, mislabeled products, abuse, or the outside
| elements. And if something does fail, it's an absolute
| bitch to trace down problems with the electrical. Service
| manuals are invaluable both listing how things are
| supposed to work as well as often having extensive
| trouble shooting guides that give a hint at what could be
| a problem.
| jeffbee wrote:
| > I've seen someone not install the pads and have the
| rotor grind down into the caliper itself.
|
| I am not sure any amount of free PDF files can help that
| rider.
| WestOaklandfan wrote:
| [dead]
| squarefoot wrote:
| From a comment on that site, it seems only some models manuals
| are free.
| sameedahmad wrote:
| interesting
| rasz wrote:
| Afaik the current ev moto leader Energica just emails you pdf of
| service/owners manual if you ask them.
| cdot2 wrote:
| Is energica really the leader in electric motorcycle sales? I
| couldnt find any stats but Ive definitely seen some zero bikes
| on the road and Ive never seen an energica in person
| JumpinJack_Cash wrote:
| They are going nowhere. Electric motorcycles are a terrible
| idea because they are not the problem as far as emission go.
|
| Given the ratio between the weight of the motorcycle and the
| weight of the passenger/s they are extemely efficient, having
| the whole passenger vehicles switch to motorcycles would be
| even better than have them switch to 3000 pounds EVs.
|
| The vast majority of people are too coward to drive them
| unfortunately
| tiew9Vii wrote:
| If you ignore emissions on the environmental pros/cons and
| if you believe them or not...
|
| As a riding experience, electric power delivery, the
| instant torque and performance will make the riding
| experience more fun. As a pure riding experience electric
| is probably far better than combustion engines, and I love
| my ice powered bikes, the noise, the different engine
| characteristics, singles, boxers, il4, v4, vtwins etc as
| much as anyone else.
|
| Practicality, range, weight is different and we're probably
| a long time off comparable practicality of mid to large
| capacity size motorcycles.
| 0wis wrote:
| Following your thought process, even better is everyone on
| bikes. That's what is happening slowly in many developed
| cities. Everyone on a motorcycle (mostly scooters) is what
| you have in southeast Asia. And true, it allows much higher
| densities than US highways packed with cars, but the price
| is reduced confort and security... Hard to make people
| accept that nowadays.
|
| To give a contrarian view, I would happily become an
| electric bike customer. I think it is a great idea to apply
| electric motors to motorcycles : - Torque is usable at low
| speeds. To have the same experience in a ICE bike require a
| huge and comparably heavy motor, like the triumph speed
| triple or a Harley-Davidson. - Range is still a bit low but
| not far from the 250km/150miles an ICE bike can have. By
| the way, most bikers I know, myself included, have to stop
| before reaching such distances. Confort makes it hard to do
| more. - Speaking of confort, less noise and vibrations is a
| huge plus
|
| Price is still high bit it will reduce. We also can hope
| for range increases too [1]. My main concern currently is
| charging time, even with fast charging, 40min is still a
| bit too much for me, and I hope that progress will be made
| in this area (with 800v architecture maybe?)
|
| [1]: https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-
| bikes/2023-energica-...
| JumpinJack_Cash wrote:
| > > To have the same experience in a ICE bike require a
| huge and comparably heavy motor, like the triumph speed
| triple or a Harley-Davidson
|
| No it requires you to know the rpm range where the torque
| is on your motorbike and then be able to use the clutch
| and the throttle to reach it.
|
| Slow relase of clutch + ride-by-wire system introduced in
| the early 00s allows for smoother acceleration compared
| to the past
| lloeki wrote:
| Around here there's been semi-historically a bike culture
| in my city (certainly not at Amsterdam scale but one of
| the most bike friendly city in France). I see an
| increasing number of people with ev bikes, and in turn an
| increasing proportion of that are ev bikes that
| borderline being 70cc equivalent, maybe even 125cc, both
| in power, style, and usage (as in there are pedals but
| the drivers don't pedal). Except for the speed cap
| they're essentially more like small ev motorbikes
| (masquerading as ev bikes because regulations) than big
| ev bikes.
| eightnoneone wrote:
| Terrible idea?!? Have you ever ridden a motorcycle? Or an
| electric one?
|
| I've been riding for ~40 years and I don't think I've
| _ever_ met someone who rode an ICE bike for the
| fuel/emissions efficiency. It's for the fun and adventure.
| My stock Energica does 0-60 in 2.8s. WAAAY more fun than my
| 30yo 1100cc.
|
| Pretty GOOD idea from where I'm sitting.
| JumpinJack_Cash wrote:
| > > My stock Energica does 0-60 in 2.8s.
|
| Should I be impressed? That's the same of a 1999 Yamaha
| R6 selling for less than 1000$ [0]
|
| And the R6 can do it all day, you'll run out of tires
| before you run out of clutch and gas.
|
| The Energica does it once and then it's panting and
| overheating.
|
| And as always the point in motorsport is that every noob
| squid and every idiot is capable of going fast in a
| straight line, the light supersport bikes such as the
| Ducati and the Yamahas will smoke the Electric
| motorcycles in corners because the latter are heavy due
| to the batteries
|
| [0] https://accelerationtimes.com/models/yamaha-
| yzf-r6-n-a
|
| Sounds like you've been had.
| tiew9Vii wrote:
| The R6 is an inline 4, 15500rpm red line, 68nm of torque.
| Fun bike, on a track or doing illegal speeds on the road.
| Rest of the time, it has no power.
|
| The Enigica has 215nm of torque, about twice the 2022 R1.
|
| The R6, the power is all up top, it's gutless down low,
| you have to be up near the top in the rev range for it to
| go, engine screaming away. You'd also need to be pretty
| skilled at launching to get that 2.8s acceleration from
| it.
|
| The Enigica you get all the torque from the get go, so
| much they have to limit it at the start. You just twist
| and it pulls from the off, no flat spots, it just keeps
| on pulling. It's the torque that gives you the buzz,
| trying to hang on.
|
| They are very different power deliveries and the Enigica
| makes a far better road bike (power wise) with all the
| torque rather than a high reving 600 il4 that you need to
| be near red line to get the most out of it. Even a 1000cc
| il4 with more torque, they don't really get going until
| above 6,000rpm then your license is gone as you click in
| to second gear when making the most of the power band.
|
| The Yamaha MT-09's/10'a are so popular as they have high
| torque down low where it's most practical for everyday
| riding.
| JumpinJack_Cash wrote:
| > > The R6, the power is all up top, it's gutless down
| low, you have to be up near the top in the rev range for
| it to go, engine screaming away
|
| With the introduction of ride by wire in the early 00s
| the electronics became king.
|
| You can customize the throttle ride by wire system
| according to your preference so the torque area becomes
| much larger and spread out on the throttle when you move
| your wrist.
|
| Once the problem of wrist sensitivity has been solved by
| ride by wire customization the high revs you mentioned
| are much more manageable.
|
| And also you say engine screaming away like it's a bad
| thing.
|
| 1) a 4 cylinder in line at 10000rpm is music for an
| enthusiast ears
|
| 2) It makes people aware that you are there , which is a
| feature not a bug, motorcycles are notoriously invisible
| for car and truck drivers
| mynameisash wrote:
| Maybe not the _only_ reason, though that 's certainly
| high on my list. I don't find much time to ride
| recreationally, so probably 98% of my rides are for my
| commute. My 50 mpg bike is much cheaper to ride than
| either of our cars. Plus HOV benefits.
|
| I absolutely would factor fuel efficiency into my
| purchase decision, but it's also not the only reason.
| Because you're right, they are definitely fun :)
| whartung wrote:
| I've had by motorcycle license years before I got a car
| certification. I started on a 180cc scooter. Sipped gas,
| easy to ride, was legal (barely) on the freeway. Free
| parking at the university and right in the middle too,
| instead of the hinterlands.
|
| Was my 100% transportation, rain or shine. SoCal, so not
| much rain. But, yea it rained. I had an I'll fitting, $25
| open face white helmet from K-Mart, and wore a ski
| jacket, ski gloves, and ski goggles for gear (the yellow
| lenses worked really well at night to be honest).
|
| You could catch me with my original Macintosh in those
| very cool carrying cases we had back then bungeed to the
| rear seat. I've had stacks of books explode off the back
| when one popped out like a drunk jenga player.
|
| I can attest that my ad hoc gear performed adequately
| when things got horizontal.
|
| When I got a new job requiring a 30 mile one way commute
| into the heart of West LA, I traded the scooter in for a
| 600cc street bike. $2000 with highway robbery financing
| interest rates. It never crossed my mind to buy a car.
|
| I got free parking at the building (vs $60 per month),
| free use of car pool lanes and, the creme de la creme of
| California motorcycle riding, lane splitting. Lane
| splitting in the rain on slick Bots dots is unnerving.
| Lane splitting made that commute sane.
|
| Did that for a couple of years, had a scary get off
| (slick right turn arrow at 2am, I simply shouldn't have
| taken that route), and that made me sell the bike. I also
| sold the Macintosh for $750, and used the money to buy a
| new bike -- the later to be cult favorite, Honda Hawk GT.
| Dealership had a fire sale on them one weekend, so I got
| a good deal. The Hawk was notoriously expensive in the
| day.
|
| Selling the Mac for the bike is one of the best things I
| ever did. I was a computer geek sans computer for several
| years.
|
| Oh, the Hawk charted at 38 horsepower. Less than my
| previous bike. Got it to 110 once at a "high desert test
| area". Fast enough for me. I never bought a bike on
| performance numbers. They were all fast enough (save the
| scooter). But speed was never my thing.
|
| That bike took me up and down California and around the
| southwest. Plus my even longer commute when I changed
| jobs again.
|
| I did finally buy a truck. Test drove it with my M
| certified license. Didn't get my actual car license until
| after I bought it. As many have with many things, I
| bought the truck because of a girl. And so it goes.
| blululu wrote:
| Eh, you'd be surprised how much particulates a 2 stroke
| engine with no catalytic converter spits out.
|
| But the more important point is that electric motorcycles
| are amazingly fun to ride. No clutch and crazy of
| acceleration gives an amazing ride.
| JumpinJack_Cash wrote:
| > > electric motorcycles are amazingly fun to ride
|
| Every motorcycle is fun to ride, and the acceleration
| part, Yamaha clocked the 0-60 in 3s bit back in 1999[0] ,
| we are really splitting hairs to somehow elevate the
| concept of electrification like it's some sort of re-
| inventing the wheel for the fun of the consumer and not
| for political goals, I have come to believe that it's a
| form of brainwashing
|
| That is unless the concept of 'electrification' is used
| to mask the inability to use a manual gearbox as it
| pertains to motorcycles.
|
| [0]https://accelerationtimes.com/models/yamaha-yzf-r6-n-a
| serf wrote:
| >The vast majority of people are too coward to drive them
| unfortunately
|
| you could frame regular motorcycles the same way. i'm not
| sure 'coward' is the right word either given the
| statistics.
|
| >Electric motorcycles are a terrible idea because they are
| not the problem as far as emission go.
|
| people aren't _only_ into EVs for the environmental
| aspects; they 're unique and offer a unique experience.
| JumpinJack_Cash wrote:
| > > people aren't only into EVs for the environmental
| aspects; they're unique and offer a unique experience.
|
| Automotive is a 150yr old industry, you will not re-
| invent the wheel. Progress has plateued in the 1970-80s
| as far as fun goes.
|
| When Americans come to Europe and try the Vespas and the
| Lambrettas , that's about the same fun upgrade as going
| from an ICE which does 0-60 in 8s to an EVs which does it
| in 4s, only the Vespa experience costs 20$ and the Vespa
| itself 1000$.
|
| for some reason they come back home and completely forget
| about it and decide to fork 50,000$ for an EV instead
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| ....?
|
| Motocross racing is probably going to see more electric
| because you really can't put that much power down into the
| dirt. And electric dirt bikes have much finer grain control
| of power delivery which makes them quite competitive
| against gas motorcycles.
|
| And smaller electric dirt bikes can get away with going
| places where the noise of a gas engine would just draw too
| much ire. I've seen some Surron's going onto bike paths;
| they're not supposed to but if you're careful and
| courteous, I doubt anyone's gonna call the cops on you.
|
| Surron was also doing demo's and training with their bike's
| indoors with the speed electronically limited to about
| 12kph (7mph). No tail pipe emissions, no noise, so no
| problems running them in a building. Folks that have never
| swung a leg over a motorcycle before could confidently mess
| around with one in about 20 minutes without having to think
| first about clutch or being scared of a whiskey throttle or
| stalling the bike.
|
| And you gotta keep in mind, it's not the expensive high
| performance two wheelers that are where they're really
| thriving, it's the cheap personal commuter. Pedal ebikes
| and low speed electric mopeds are growing pretty damn
| quick.
|
| Plus there is at least one intriguing idea in regards to
| security that gas bike's can't do. Having the electric
| motor apply reverse torque to the rear when someone tries
| to wheel the bike away without the key, effective turning
| the motor into a wheel lock for the rear when parked. I
| don't know how practical it really is but the ideal has
| some merit IMO.
| bastawhiz wrote:
| > Electric motorcycles are a terrible idea because they are
| not the problem as far as emission go.
|
| I own two and emissions have never been a consideration for
| my purchase. Nobody is buying electric bikes to save the
| environment.
| bradly wrote:
| > Electric motorcycles are a terrible idea because they are
| not the problem as far as emission go.
|
| There are other reasons to want an electric motorcycles
| besides low emissions.
| JumpinJack_Cash wrote:
| Motorcycles are the best vehicles as far as acceleration
| and weight/power ratio is concerned, they fare even
| better in the price/quickness and price/fun ratio.
|
| A 45,000$ Kawasaki H2R has won a drag race against a
| RedBull F1 car, an F16, a Gulfstream G600 a Bugatti, a
| TeslaP100..[0]
|
| By orders of magnitude the Kawasaki was the cheapest
| vehicle in that race and smoked them all..but that bike
| can only be driven to the limit by the 1% of riders, the
| ones with the best skills and massive balls.
|
| What's the point of an EV motorbike? 0-60mph in 2.2s is
| not enough? Want 1.5s? Cool but what's the point of
| numbers for numbers sake if people aren't ever pushing it
| to the limit?
|
| Also what's the point when you can only do it once before
| it overheats?
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnTL4wDAbK0
| bradly wrote:
| I'm not sure what any of that has to do with why people
| enjoy electric motorcycles. You seem focused on a
| motorcycle's racing ability as a measure of its
| usefulness or enjoyment.
| eightnoneone wrote:
| It's surely the leader in the bikes' capabilities and
| reliability.
| knob wrote:
| What's your source for this opinion?
| tiew9Vii wrote:
| I can't comment on reliability, don't own one.
|
| Enigica look to be following typical Italian exotica.
| It's a premium/performance motorcycle with premium parts,
| breaks, suspension, handling etc.
|
| Zero seem more middle of the road. Not designed to be
| exotica, not designed with premium breaks, suspension,
| not designed for all out performance/handling, it's a
| general purpose motorcycle designed for urban
| environments.
|
| I think Enigica and Zero are trying to target different
| segments and Enigica is targeting a segment above Zero.
| The sportier side.
| eightnoneone wrote:
| I've owned both.
| mmh0000 wrote:
| I've been wanting an electric motorcycle for years. But every
| time I look at the pricing I just can't justify it.
|
| An entry level electric bike for $25k or a top of the line BMW
| for $18k. It's just not even a comparison.
| squarefoot wrote:
| For $25k I would buy an Arcimoto Roadster (3 wheels), which
| unfortunately isn't available in the EU, and there are no
| similar equivalents (2 spaced front wheels, electric, not
| bicycle sized) over here. Patiently waiting for a EU
| distributor to appear.
| driverdan wrote:
| Your numbers are completely wrong. Zero has a bike for $12k
| https://zeromotorcycles.com/model/zero-fx and BMW sells bikes
| that go well into the $20k ranges. You can get a Surron for
| under $4k, but it's more like a cross between a bicycle and
| motorcycle.
|
| I do agree with the general premise, that electric is more
| expensive. There needs to be more competition to drive prices
| down like is happening for cars.
| antisthenes wrote:
| You can get a "deathwish" scooter from Alibaba that can go
| 55mph for $3000 also.
|
| The problem is that the electric motorcycle market isn't big
| enough to enjoy efficiencies of scale, so the only ones that
| exist cater to the wealthy/luxury clients.
|
| The value proposition for motorcycles is really not as
| impressive either. The instant electric torque is more of a
| safety issue on bikes, because you can already trivially pop
| wheelies on regular gas-powered motorcycles.
|
| On top of that, they have better range, because the battery
| capacity on a motorbike is limited by the width of the human
| hip, not highway lane.
|
| The best use case for that is probably the thing you linked,
| Surron, which is an e-MTB essentially, where high torque is
| really nice for going up hills (and isn't really required for
| 60mph+ cruising on freeways)
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I think the biggest issue with electric motorbikes is
| infrastructure because, at least from what I see,
| motorbikes aren't used the same way cars are.
|
| I think they should work great for commuting, if you don't
| live too far away. But then, people would want to use the
| bike for other things, too, like going on road trips.
|
| And that's where it hurts. You usually don't take road
| trips on the main highways because it's boring as hell.
| You'll take smaller roads, which often don't yet have any
| reasonable charging infrastructure. Combined with the
| shorter ranges, nobody is really going to risk it, so
| they'll just buy a gas bike. Hell, even with my gas bike's
| tank which is on larger side (19.5 liters), I sometimes
| have to cart around "safety gas", which I've had to use
| once. And no, it's not a dirt bike or anything, the only
| time it went off the asphalt was to go inside a hotel yard.
|
| I think this is the reason why, at least where I live in
| Europe, you see next to no "serious" electric bikes, but
| practically all smaller ones are now electric: these bikes
| don't do anything apart commuting anyway, so electric is
| great for that.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| > But then, people would want to use the bike for other
| things, too, like going on road trips.
|
| I have an e-bike, I can take it on the train, go to some
| random town and explore. You can buy 'S-pedelecs" which
| are basically mopeds in bicycle form-factor - they have
| powerfull motors and go 45 km/h.
|
| Then high-end electric motorcycles make sence
|
| But lower end electric motorbikes, I dont get. You camt
| tale them on oiblic transport, they need a socket to
| charge, they cant use car-standarss for charging, and
| they dont have the range. So they seem to be in
| purgatory.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I agree with your point about taking the bike (bicycle)
| on a train and whatnot.
|
| My point was about _motor_ bikes. Which, as you say, have
| all the inconveniences of a full-blown motorbike, without
| the nice things, and the smaller ones aren't materially
| better than a souped-up e-bike.
| notatoad wrote:
| >but it's more like a cross between a bicycle and motorcycle.
|
| and that's kinda the reason that the value proposition for
| electric motorbikes isn't very good. if you can give up the
| requirement of "i want to drive on the highway", an electric
| bicycle is going to do what you need for a fraction of the
| cost.
|
| electric motorbikes lean more towards toys than practical
| tools, so they're priced like toys.
| bastawhiz wrote:
| My FXE goes fifteen over the speed limit on the freeway.
| There's no universe where that's not good on the highway.
| notatoad wrote:
| yeah, that's what i'm saying. an FXE is an e-motorbike,
| not an e-bicycle. if you didn't need highway speed, you
| could have got a top-tier commuter-style ebike for $3k
| instead of the $12k an FXE costs.
|
| but i'm sure the FXE is way more fun.
| chefandy wrote:
| Maybe more like a cross between a motocross bike and a
| street bike-- it's a dual sport like the Honda CRF450. I
| wouldn't take it on a road trip but I'll bet it would
| handle an average highway commute just fine.
| [deleted]
| bastawhiz wrote:
| My 22 Zero FXE was $13k. My Energica was more than double that,
| but what you get for that is range and 40mph higher top speed.
| If you're looking for a commuter bike, you don't need to kill
| yourself on price. If you're looking to scare the shit out of
| yourself every time you send it, you'll pay Ducati prices.
| Mengkudulangsat wrote:
| Taiwan is doing electric bikes right. They're not a $25k toy,
| they are $2k tool.
| throwaway290 wrote:
| Motorbikes in general are a toy in the west and a cost
| efficient tool in all of Asia. Electric motorbikes are not
| any special. Electrics seem more rare in Taiwan now compared
| to China a few years ago but they are catching up I guess.
| itsZero wrote:
| Agree that it's expensive and the range sucks, but I still love
| my Energica EVA Ribelle. It's super satisfying to ride!
|
| So far the furthest I've ridden is from Bay Area to Big Sur and
| back, which needs to fast charge like 2 times each way.
| bastawhiz wrote:
| I love my Eva Ribelle as well! I'm envious that you get to
| ride it around in the mountains in CA. I'm thinking about
| hauling mine out to the tail of the dragon at some point, but
| that's a still a long journey for me.
| mmh0000 wrote:
| I'm a little jealous you have that bike. I did a test ride of
| it about a year ago and loved it. Sadly, as I said in another
| comment, I don't want a chain or belt drive bike. But, the
| EVA Ribelle is almost perfect.
| matsemann wrote:
| No market for electric motorbikes. Based on my experience the
| reason for buying a motorbike is to be obnoxiously loud and
| disturb your whole city block. Can't do that with electric.
| barrkel wrote:
| Classic availability bias.
|
| This can be replaced by electric: https://www.reddit.com/medi
| a?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fn...
| rabuse wrote:
| The range is also typically laughably bad also. I just can't
| justify having to perfectly calculate a trip, or ending up
| stuck on the side of the road with no quick ability to just gas
| it back up.
| leetrout wrote:
| Where are you getting the top BMW for 18? Or are you talking
| about the ones they farm out?
| mmh0000 wrote:
| https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/models/sport/r1250rs.html
|
| Okay. 20k. Still less than an electric and more powerful with
| more features.
| subhro wrote:
| 1250RS is not top of the line for sure in any of the
| segments it is marketed at. I would say a K16 would be more
| towards the top.
| mmh0000 wrote:
| I disagree, the 1250RS is basically a redesign of the
| K1200S (my current bike). Just swapping out the inline-v
| for the BMW boxer motor.
|
| Top of the line, in it's class. A sports bike, with shaft
| drive, linked brakes, traction control, and heated grips.
|
| Find me an electric bike with those features for anywhere
| near a comparable price. Specifically, I will not even
| consider a bike without a shaft drive (or in the case of
| an electric, a hub drive would be acceptable.) I am done
| maintaining chains and belts.
| dharmab wrote:
| Belts are less maintenance intensive than shaft drives. A
| shaft drive needs an oil change every 10,000 miles. A
| belt needs a change every 60,000 miles or so, depending
| on storage condtions.
|
| The disadvantages of belts are efficiency (especially
| compared to chains), off road durability and trailside
| serviceability.
| mmh0000 wrote:
| I might just be a bad bike parent, but, my current shaft
| drive bike has ~42,000 miles on it. It had the shaft-oil
| replaced once at 800 miles (per manual, break in period).
|
| My bike has been rock-fucking-solid. Its been in the shop
| once for a real break in 16 years for a busted fuel line.
| (not including tires and engine oil changes). Its really
| hard for me to believe another bike could be as reliable.
| dharmab wrote:
| In my experience most Suzukis other than the 2000s GSXRs
| have superior reliability to BMW at the tradeoff of lower
| sophistication. Though the new VStroms and Hayabusa are
| competitive with BMW on rider aids. Certain Kawasakis are
| uo there too, like the Versys and KLR.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I'm too lazy to grab my Honda's manual to check, but I'm
| pretty sure the recommended shaft oil change interval is
| way more than 10k miles. I'm thinking 48k km, which
| something like 30k mi.
| dharmab wrote:
| On a current Gold Wing it's every 3 years. https://cdn.po
| wersports.honda.com/documentum/MWOM/ml.remawmo...
|
| On an R1200/R1250 it's 12,000 miles or 2 years.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| Indeed, mine says every two years, doesn't specify
| mileage (it's a vfr).
| [deleted]
| leetrout wrote:
| Yep. Or the flagship of adventure bikes - R1250 GS also a
| bit more than the RS or RT.
| m463 wrote:
| Refreshing compared to the ways others have gone (tesla for
| instance)
| zlsa wrote:
| Tesla makes their service manuals available for free (you need
| to sign in and subscribe, but it's free and didn't require a
| payment method for me.)
|
| https://service.tesla.com/
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| Where?
|
| All I see at https://service.tesla.com/service-manuals is the
| manual for the legacy Roadster, which Tesla no longer
| supports.
|
| And if I login, all I can see is the option to buy some kind
| of service subscription.
| freerobby wrote:
| You need to sign in with a Tesla account. Once you sign in,
| the service manuals are free for all vehicles. The paid
| subscriptions are for their proprietary software.
| magnetic wrote:
| Can you please walk me through it on the site? I'm logged
| in and can't find any service manual (I can find the
| regular "Owner's Manual" though under "Documents" under
| the a specific car selected. Is that state specific? (I'm
| in CA)
| filoleg wrote:
| At first it wasn't working for me either, then I turned
| off my adblock, refreshed cache, tried again, and it
| worked. Not sure which part specifically helped.
|
| You need to click "Model 3" (or whichever other model you
| were trying to find a service manual for) in the top nav
| bar. If everything went right, you will see this
| screen[0], with all the needed links (instead of what you
| saw previously).
|
| 0. https://imgur.com/a/RDkuSUC
| coder543 wrote:
| For example, this link:
| https://service.tesla.com/user/vehicle-models/Model3 (auth
| required)
|
| Once signed in, I was able to hit "Menu", then select Model
| 3, which took me to that page.
|
| On that page, I can see the service manual and more, for
| free.
| m463 wrote:
| If this is true, I stand corrected.
| eightnoneone wrote:
| This is a step in the right direction, but Zero has some
| serious need to repair their reputation, IMHO. They attempted
| to do the scummy "pay to unlock" thing with features already on
| the bike.
| bradly wrote:
| > Refreshing compared to the ways others have gone
|
| Do you know of companies charging for service manuals?
| jsight wrote:
| I think most car manufacturers do. Factory service manuals
| are rarely free or cheap.
|
| Tesla and these guys are the exceptions.
| ChrisClark wrote:
| Yeah you're right, usually you have to pay for car service
| manuals. I'm glad Tesla gives them away for free. Just one
| small step in the right direction at least.
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