[HN Gopher] Speed Test
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Speed Test
        
       Author : RadixDLT
       Score  : 546 points
       Date   : 2023-08-10 09:30 UTC (13 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (speed.cloudflare.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (speed.cloudflare.com)
        
       | ChrisArchitect wrote:
       | Anything new here?
        
       | dr_kiszonka wrote:
       | I love the box plots! I wish more sites showed distribution
       | information, including IMDb and Rotten Tomatoes, because I
       | suspect many movies and TV shows have at least bimodal
       | distributions.
        
       | madeofpalk wrote:
       | Great, one more speedtest site to pit against all the others. On
       | my gigabyte fibre:
       | 
       | Cloudflare: 697 down / 645 up
       | 
       | fast.com: 860 down / 440 up
       | 
       | Google: 760 down / 347 up
       | 
       | Ookla speedtest: 841 down / 827 up
       | 
       | Quite a large variability in upload speeds, which isn't all the
       | surprising I guess. Network providers often don't really need to
       | prioritise upload traffic...
        
         | waynesonfire wrote:
         | cloudflare: 863 down / 57 / up
         | 
         | ookla speedtest: 940 up / 750 down
        
         | trvz wrote:
         | > On my gigabyte fibre:
         | 
         | *gigabit
         | 
         | Get it right already.
        
           | madeofpalk wrote:
           | I misspoke, but you understood what I meant so no harm was
           | done.
        
           | Aissen wrote:
           | I have a gigabyte fiber connection @ home (Technically 10G
           | EPON which has an effective top speed of 8Gb), so there's no
           | way of knowing if it was a mistake or not. (you're probably
           | downvoted because of the dismissive tone though)
        
       | im_lince wrote:
       | [flagged]
        
       | haunter wrote:
       | Pretty much spot on for me. 2gig/1gig fiber internet and I got
       | 1.95 Gbps/960 Mbps
        
         | FridgeSeal wrote:
         | Wow that's fast.
         | 
         | Genuine question: what's it like having internet that fast?
         | 
         | Because I get 40-50Mbps down and ~16 Mbps down on that tool,
         | and I have fibre to the property (yay, Australia) and I'm so
         | curious to know what's it like to have a connection that's
         | actually _good_.
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | I've ridden a 10g connection to the Internet and the main
           | difference is that big downloads/uploads are near instant.
           | For regular browsing it's not that noticeable _unless_ it's
           | also super low latency.
        
           | dist-epoch wrote:
           | I have 500 Mpbs, and the only noticeable difference versus a
           | connection like yours is that you can download a Ubuntu ISO
           | or a 1080p movie 1-2 minute. That's about it.
        
       | badrequest wrote:
       | I ran the test from Austin, and it showed the test server as
       | located at the Dallas Airport. I wonder how they decided on which
       | landmarks to represent each data center.
        
         | theandrewbailey wrote:
         | Cloudflare represents each datacenter by the nearest airport
         | code, even though it's not literally at the airport.
         | 
         | https://developers.cloudflare.com/support/troubleshooting/ge...
        
       | bmo-at wrote:
       | Is there a cli tool for this aswell or just the website? At home
       | I have my server run a speedtest (ookla for now) running every 30
       | minutes because I do not trust my ISP to keep their end of the
       | deal. I visualize the results with grafana and would love to
       | change over to this. As haivri points out, this is a very
       | detailed report!
       | 
       | EDIT: Apparently there is a nodejs module available
       | https://github.com/cloudflare/speedtest Totally gonna start this
       | project asap
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | beyonddream wrote:
         | amazing to see this JS library uses minimal direct dependencies
         | and even a separate devDependencies that are not needed for
         | runtime -
         | https://github.com/cloudflare/speedtest/blob/main/package.js...
        
         | darknavi wrote:
         | I do this, although I have a little bit more trust in my fiber
         | ISP. More just curious.
         | 
         | I also wonder how much bandwidth I am using by running all of
         | these tests, but my ISP doesn't have any caps so I guess it
         | doesn't matter.
        
       | teddyh wrote:
       | Users in Sweden should use <https://www.bredbandskollen.se/>.
        
       | NelsonMinar wrote:
       | The interesting thing about this to me is its repeated sampling
       | and reporting of a statistical profile of the link. Showing
       | distributions for latency and speed, not just a single average.
       | Really helpful info on less-consistent connections like Starlink.
       | 
       | Example screenshot here: https://postimg.cc/bDTyy8BM
        
         | tomsmeding wrote:
         | That website is not zoomable on mobile, which is a pretty grave
         | offence for an _image posting site_.
        
           | NelsonMinar wrote:
           | ugh you're right. I'm on the lookout for an imgur
           | replacement, do you have a recommendation?
        
       | Giorgi wrote:
       | how to change server? default one is too close, I need to test
       | oversea connection
        
       | 6bb32646d83d wrote:
       | Upload results are off for me. I have a 1gbps down/up fiber.
       | 
       | With this speed test, the results are 900mbps down, 400-500mbps
       | up (ran a few tests to confirm)
       | 
       | I tried running fast.com, speedtest.net, google speed test and
       | verizon speed test (I'm on AT&T), they all show ~950mbps down and
       | up
        
       | cbdumas wrote:
       | Super cool that this shows latency under load! It's a shame ISPs
       | seem to only market their throughput numbers, and never mention
       | latency. So many people play multiplayer games now, you would
       | think there would be at least some consumer demand to measure and
       | improve latency over throughput.
        
       | pseudo_meta wrote:
       | btw, on macOS, you can just enter `networkQuality` into your
       | terminal for a speed test. No third-party website or tool of any
       | kind needed, it's a built-in mac CLI.
        
         | IntelMiner wrote:
         | Who's it measuring against? An (internet) speed test by its
         | nature requires _some_ remote third-party, if you aren 't just
         | testing to your own server
        
           | kimburgess wrote:
           | Default is Apple's infra, but you can choose via a config
           | flag. You can also run your own: https://github.com/network-
           | quality/server
        
           | sgt wrote:
           | They seem to have edge servers around the world. Even here in
           | South Africa, I got idle latency to be 27ms so it must be
           | somewhere in the country. This is from running networkQuality
           | on a MacBook Pro.
        
           | tantalor wrote:
           | In the case of tool built by Apple, running on Apple client
           | hardware, against Apple remote server, that would be "1st
           | party", not "3rd party".
        
       | gorgoiler wrote:
       | Why do these speed tests start out slow and then get faster over
       | the course of a few seconds?
       | 
       | Is it something about the internet that means the speed changes
       | so much over the course of the test?
        
         | Severian wrote:
         | It's a inherit effect of TCP congestion control. TCP slow start
         | and Window Scaling.
        
         | dgb23 wrote:
         | I can't answer your question directly, because I don't know.
         | 
         | But the first keyword I would look at would be BGP.
         | 
         | Generally speaking, routing decisions are dynamic and
         | constantly changing. Add the unreliability of the network
         | layer, corporate politics and optimization heuristics to that
         | and you get varying results.
         | 
         | https://www.cloudflare.com/learning/security/glossary/what-i...
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Gateway_Protocol
        
           | bdavbdav wrote:
           | BGP / routing is likely to be static during the course of a
           | test (and indeed much longer)
        
         | raphaelj wrote:
         | That's how TCP works.
         | 
         | TCP initially starts with a small transmission buffer (the
         | congestion window), and gradually increases its size until it
         | starts getting errors (packet drops or reordering).
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | edent wrote:
       | Tried on several devices - it consistently under-reads.
       | 
       | I'm on 500Mbps broadband. Ookla and fast.com show 350Mbps via
       | WiFi. Cloudflare only 274Mbps.
       | 
       | Similar results on Ethernet. Over 400Mbps on a proper speed test.
       | Can't hit 300 on this.
       | 
       | I assume their downstream is capped?
        
         | dboreham wrote:
         | Odd to see several posts like this, nobody considering that the
         | other tests they've run might be "over-reading".
        
           | JimmaDaRustla wrote:
           | How would they "over-read" and be so accurate?
        
           | edent wrote:
           | I know that when I download a large file, it usually hits the
           | advertised speed. So I'm confident that I can saturate my
           | broadband with normal use.
           | 
           | Cloudflare doesn't even get close.
        
         | yakubin wrote:
         | Ookla traffic is known to be prioritised by ISPs. Maybe ISPs
         | just haven't caught up with Cloudflare yet and what you're
         | seeing now is more realistic speeds.
        
         | xnorswap wrote:
         | There's an alternative explanation is that it's possible your
         | ISP hasn't learned to prioritise this speed test traffic unlike
         | other speed tests, and that this is more reflective of general
         | real-world performance?
        
         | johneth wrote:
         | I've read that often ISPs make exceptions for Ookla and
         | fast.com speed tests by removing any sort of throttling to
         | produce the best possible test results.
         | 
         | I expect it isn't as easy for ISPs to treat Cloudflare like
         | this, as it just looks like normal internet traffic.
        
           | maccard wrote:
           | Got a source for ISPs doing that for fast.com? Fast.com is
           | netflix, so the same argument applies there - if you get
           | 300mbps on fast.com you should get it on netflix too
        
             | xnorswap wrote:
             | Indeed, that's part of what motivated netflix to make
             | fast.com.
        
               | albert_e wrote:
               | is it possible for ISP to distinguish Netflix video
               | streams from connections to Fast.com ? (and throttle them
               | differently)
               | 
               | PS: my latest ISP router doesn't let me change DNS to my
               | local pi-hole. haven't explored all options yet - just
               | got new one 2 days ago -- but currently my DNS queries
               | are going to whatever is the default set by my ISP.
        
               | amalcon wrote:
               | It's theoretically possible, but practically difficult.
               | They can tell whether you loaded something from fast.com
               | or netflix.com prior to the data stream, or they can give
               | full speed initially and throttle after a minute or two
               | (longer than people's patience for a speed test, but far
               | shorter than a movie).
               | 
               | It's difficult because Netflix can respond to any such
               | technique by taking steps to make it less obvious, so you
               | just end up with one of these cat-and-mouse games.
        
               | xp84 wrote:
               | What's the motivation to rent an ISP router? That's a lot
               | more control than many people would prefer to give to an
               | entity that is likely anywhere from "greedy and dumb," to
               | greedy and outright hostile.
               | 
               | Having DOCSIS, I buy a modem, and own my router. I am
               | aware that for more exotic technologies like fiber, a
               | rented/ISP-owned 'modem' or network terminal of some sort
               | may be compulsory, but a router is a bridge too far (no
               | pun intended) for me.
        
               | denton-scratch wrote:
               | I've never used a pi-hole; but assuming it works as a
               | DHCP server and a DNS resolver, then you should only need
               | to disable DHCP in your router. I've never seen a router
               | than wouldn't let you disable the DHCP server.
        
             | LoganDark wrote:
             | This is why Netflix runs fast.com, so that if an ISP wants
             | to cheat on speed tests, people are still going to get
             | those cheated speeds even when they stream real Netflix
             | videos. Really clever.
        
               | notRobot wrote:
               | And the other way around, if they throttle Netflix then
               | that'll show up in the speed tests.
        
             | wilkystyle wrote:
             | This was my understanding, too. Anecdotally, I've always
             | seemed to get slower results on fast.com compared to
             | Ookla/speedtest.net/my ISP's speedtest website (the latter
             | of which all seemed to show similar results, leading me to
             | believe that fast.com was exempt from this sort of
             | prioritization).
        
           | adithyassekhar wrote:
           | I think fast.com hits netflix's cache server. Pretty much all
           | isps have one provided to them by netflix.
        
         | op00to wrote:
         | I'm able to hit 800 down and 400 up on the Cloudflare app. On
         | fast.com i get 980/980, similar with ookla.
         | 
         | I wonder if it could be that various handoffs with cloudflare's
         | network are more busy, but we don't really notice because we're
         | not doing speed tests on it. :)
        
       | cpcallen wrote:
       | Sigh. Yet another site that completely fails if cookies are
       | disabled: just an otherwise blank page with the message
       | "Application error: a client-side exception has occurred (see the
       | browser console for more information)", with
       | DOMException: Failed to read the 'localStorage' property from
       | 'Window': Access is denied for this document.
       | 
       | in the console.
       | 
       | I can believe that it may not be possible to run the test without
       | local storage (though it's not obvious that that should be the
       | case), but failing to verify that one's website degrades
       | gracefully (and in the face of a totally standard and formerly
       | common browser configuration, no less) deserves disparagment.
        
         | JimmaDaRustla wrote:
         | Local storage is not cookies. This site stores no cookies.
         | 
         | Looks like their map library uses local storage to persist the
         | API key (or something innocuous) as a form of caching.
         | 
         | This is on you for not letting apps cache data.
        
       | xyzelement wrote:
       | I recently discovered the networkquality tool on Mac. As far as I
       | can tell it's the only tool that measures simultaneous upload and
       | download speeds which is more reflective of real world video
       | conferencing use cases.
       | 
       | I was using it to see if my new hardcore gaming router gave me
       | better range than the old one. On isolated up and down tests, it
       | did. But on combined tests, the advantage especially for upload
       | disappeared.
        
         | CrLf wrote:
         | > which is more reflective of real world video conferencing use
         | cases
         | 
         | What's more reflective of real world use cases is a hot
         | discussion topic. :)
         | 
         | The "networkQuality" tool on macOS and other implementations(1)
         | of the "RPM" algorithm(2) are very good to see how an Internet
         | connection behaves under high stress. But the real world is
         | seldom high stress (100Mbps+ connections are rarely pushed to
         | the limit, honestly).
         | 
         | In your example, video conferencing indeed does simulataneous
         | upload and download, but it's also low bandwidth (relatively
         | speaking) and doesn't usually come close to saturating a
         | connection. It can impacted by other traffic in the same
         | connection though.
         | 
         | Which can come from a single user, or multiple users sharing
         | the same connection. And neither networkQuality nor
         | Cloudflare's speed test measure how a connection behaves with
         | multiple users stressing a connection.
         | 
         | In the end, which tool you use depends on what you're trying to
         | measure. For me, the Cloudflare speed test is closer to
         | measuring what I experience in real world use.
         | 
         | (1) https://github.com/network-quality/goresponsiveness
         | 
         | (2) https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-cpaasch-ippm-
         | responsiv...
        
       | cjk wrote:
       | Super impressive level of detail (and easy to understand, at
       | that). Cloudflare went hard on the statistics here.
        
       | reboot81 wrote:
       | Seems like a great alternative to blip.
       | 
       | https://github.com/apenwarr/blip
        
       | auselen wrote:
       | No share/record/export/save button?
        
         | bmo-at wrote:
         | There is a csv export and sharing to twitter and facebook for
         | me, right nect to pause/retest
        
       | awslattery wrote:
       | This has been my go-to over Fast.com for years. The breakdown of
       | latencies and speeds at different thresholds was very beneficial
       | in validating the behavior of our 5G Home Internet through
       | Verizon.
        
       | itvision wrote:
       | I use fast.com instead.
       | 
       | This one tests a 10MB chunk at last and that's the only reliable
       | indication for me.
       | 
       | 100KB and 1MB down/up load tests show unrealistically low values,
       | perhaps due to a high latency (ping).
        
         | CrLf wrote:
         | > 100KB and 1MB down/up load tests show unrealistically low
         | values, perhaps due to a high latency (ping).
         | 
         | That's related to TCP congestion control. TCP starts slow and
         | ramps up speed as download progresses.
         | 
         | But you're right that latency also has an impact on smaller
         | downloads, and that's why latency is a critical measurement of
         | connection quality for everyone, not just gamers.
        
       | Pxtl wrote:
       | It's very cool, but I thing the initial download-speed test is
       | very misleading. Consistently I get like 2/3 of my max, but then
       | when I let it run to completion and it goes through the longer
       | download tests it ramps up to my full speed and I get the full
       | value.
        
         | dboreham wrote:
         | Um. That's how TCP works.
        
       | Vicinity9635 wrote:
       | Interesting. I get higher speeds on cloudflare in chrome.
       | 
       | 603Mbps Cloudflare chrome vs. 600 Mbps Cloudflare firefox
       | 
       | But on fast.com (netflix) it's the opposite:
       | 
       | 440 Mbps fast.com Chrome vs. 590 Mbps fast.com firefox.
        
       | optymizer wrote:
       | Download: 636Mbps Upload: 139Mbps Latency: 13.3ms
       | 
       | Not bad for corp VPN.
        
       | jedberg wrote:
       | I think this is great service, and here is another one that
       | Netflix provides:
       | 
       | https://fast.com
       | 
       | That one uses Netflix servers, so you get a valid test as long as
       | your ISP isn't throttling Netflix. Of course they created it so
       | that people would call their ISP and complain they aren't getting
       | the speed they pay for, but it turns out it's a pretty good test
       | most of the time.
       | 
       | And most importantly, it isn't prioritized like speedtest.net.
        
         | ghshephard wrote:
         | The prioritization is _critical_ for speedtest.net - it 's
         | entire purpose is to provide an assessment of your PHY - not
         | your Network, and _certainly_ not your Internet speed.
         | 
         | speedtest.net should tell you if the physical installation of
         | your cable was done properly - nothing more.
        
       | p1mrx wrote:
       | Nice. Every speed test should have a "latency under load" graph,
       | because we can't fight bufferbloat if we can't see it.
       | 
       | DSLReports had the first bufferbloat test I'm aware of, but it's
       | broken now. Another example is
       | https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat
       | 
       | Ideally this problem should be fixed by ISPs and modem
       | manufacturers, but individuals can use OpenWrt with luci-app-sqm,
       | at least when the connection has a predictable speed limit.
       | 
       | An option to choose between IPv4/IPv6 (or test both) would
       | probably be useful.
        
         | sinak wrote:
         | Ah the Waveform test is ours! I've been meaning to post it
         | properly to HN since we launched it.
         | 
         | It's far from being a perfect bufferbloat/latency under load
         | test, and there's lots of room to improve it, but we built it
         | when DSL Reports seemed to be running a little unreliably.
         | 
         | We actually use Cloudflare and Fastly on the backend for
         | latency/speed testing. We built and host the test for free
         | mostly because I wanted it, but I justified the dev time as it
         | being very-roundabout marketing for us - so if you ever need a
         | signal booster or MIMO antenna for 5G internet, looks us up :).
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | CrLf wrote:
         | Cloudflare's speed test doesn't have a graph for latency under
         | load, but it shows those numbers while the test is running.
         | 
         | But you can find those graphs in Cloudflare Radar. Half of the
         | https://radar.cloudflare.com/quality section is based on speed
         | test data.
        
           | p1mrx wrote:
           | I see a graphical visualization of latency with multiple
           | points and error bars. Maybe "graph" isn't the right
           | technical term?
           | 
           | Edit: It's a box and whisker plot:
           | https://www.khanacademy.org/math/statistics-
           | probability/summ...
        
             | CrLf wrote:
             | Ah, sorry. I thought you were asking for something
             | different (more summarized). It does indeed plot latency
             | during downloads and uploads in the same way as it plots
             | unloaded latency (and I'd call those a "graph" too).
        
         | dom96 wrote:
         | Wow, +500ms latency under upload load for me with Hyperoptic.
         | Incredibly poor.
         | https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=8205ec7e-...
        
           | pixl97 wrote:
           | Is your router just blasting packets out at full speed or
           | does it have a limit set a little below the max. This makes a
           | huge difference in latency.
        
       | junon wrote:
       | There's no way I'm getting over 500Mbps on my Telekom phone data
       | in this elevator right now.
       | 
       | EDIT: fast.com is showing 1Gbps. There's no way that's true.
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | Are you on local 5G? I've seen numbers like that. And they
         | often put things in the elevator shafts to prevent dropout.
        
           | bob1029 wrote:
           | Might be this building:
           | 
           | https://stelladoradus.com/case-study/mobile-signal-
           | solution-...
        
         | johnsonjo wrote:
         | Do you have 5G by chance? Have never really looked up 5G speeds
         | until now, so I personally was suprised by what I found, but
         | apparently the speeds can often be anywhere from 1Gbps to
         | 10Gbps, so anywhere in that ballpark or possibly lower could be
         | true.
         | 
         | > The theoretical maximum speeds of 5G are pretty
         | groundbreaking -- but we have a very long way to go before
         | you're likely to hit that kind of peak speed in the real world,
         | regardless of your connected device. Depending on your 5G
         | coverage, maximum download speeds *often* range from 1Gbps to
         | 10Gbps, and latency, or the time it takes to send data, could
         | go as low as 1 millisecond (ms). [1]
         | 
         | [1]: https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/how-fast-is-5g/
        
         | gargablegar wrote:
         | Fast.com uses local Netflix instances for the data so if you
         | near to one yea you can get high speeds. Also 5G might be in
         | the building with you #tinfoilhat
        
         | DrFlipper wrote:
         | I've been trouble shooting a dodgy 5G connection the last month
         | or so and have entirely abandoned fast.com now. It seems
         | susceptible to wildly inaccurate results when the connection is
         | "bursty", the way 5G can be. I've got some very impressive
         | screenshots from it though, next time anyone wants a measuring
         | contest.
        
       | sebzim4500 wrote:
       | Smart. With a bit of SEO/marketing, this will become the way
       | consumers judge their internet quality. If connection quality =
       | ping to cloudflare then that puts cloudflare in a very strong
       | negotiating position for peering agreements etc.
        
         | ehhthing wrote:
         | > then that puts cloudflare in a very strong negotiating
         | position for peering agreements etc.
         | 
         | Ideally settlement peering would exist for _everyone_.
         | Cloudflare, like every other sane provider prefers IX routes
         | over PNI since it 's less expensive for everyone involved.
         | There really shouldn't be a discussion about whether peering
         | should be settlement free or not.
        
         | jeroenhd wrote:
         | There are decent alternatives for this. Fast.com is hosted by
         | Netflix, making them an excellent speedtest to check for
         | service throttling. Google has a speedtest as well (Google
         | "speed test" and it'll show a button).
         | 
         | The more of these tests start appearing, the better.
        
           | Aachen wrote:
           | > hosted by Netflix, making them an excellent speedtest to
           | check for service throttling
           | 
           | That's exactly what the person above you meant about
           | Cloudflare, right? By using the Netflix speedtest as a
           | benchmark, you're promoting good connectivity to another
           | commercial entity (for good or for bad, I don't mean to
           | judge, just stating)
        
             | jeroenhd wrote:
             | Netflix and Google (YouTube) are commercial entities that
             | ISPs will intentionally throttle. Reduce the bandwidth for
             | all Netflix servers to 5mbps and suddenly you're stuck
             | watching at 480p or 720p, even if the connection can handle
             | multiple 4k streams.
             | 
             | This is abused for "unlimited data" subscriptions that
             | aren't unlimited when you actually try to consume more data
             | than a standard subscription would allow you to. Of course
             | that's completely illegal in countries with net neutrality
             | laws, but not every country has those.
             | 
             | I can't think of a reason why a shitty ISP would throttle
             | Cloudflare, as Cloudflare mostly hosts small files. As an
             | ISP you want customers to think websites are nice and fast,
             | because if only Netflix is slow, surely the problem lies
             | with Netflix, right?
             | 
             | If speedtest.net says you have gigabit, Cloudflare says the
             | same, and fast.com is giving you 5mbps, your ISP is messing
             | with your bandwidth. It could be that Netflix has technical
             | issues, but you'd read about those. That's why these tests
             | are useful, and why we need more like them.
        
               | Aachen wrote:
               | > Netflix and Google (YouTube) are commercial entities
               | that ISPs will intentionally throttle.
               | 
               | In Nederland? I only heard these stories from the USA,
               | and then specifically about monopoly ISPs with Netflix as
               | trial target to see if they can get extra money from them
        
               | jeroenhd wrote:
               | We're safe from this nonsense here in the Netherlands
               | ever since KPN tried to blocked Skype on their network
               | and upset legilators, and the EU has had net neutrality
               | law for a while now. However, with most of the internet
               | being developed over in the USA, the internet as a whole
               | gets better with these features.
               | 
               | I haven't caught any real ISP here (only train/public
               | WiFi). I don't trust Dutch ISPs to follow the law so I do
               | run these checks every now and then.
               | 
               | At least one American mobile carrier overtly advertises
               | "5G" with "unlimited data" followed by "DVD quality
               | (480p) standard" video quality, but not every carrier in
               | every country will be that direct.
        
           | unsupp0rted wrote:
           | I've found Fast.com gamed sometimes when traveling in
           | Asia/Europe, in the sense the ISP prioritizes Netflix traffic
           | but normal traffic never gets within 20% of that Fast.com
           | download speed or has much higher latency or something...?
           | 
           | With Cloudflare I'm guessing it's a more balanced measure.
        
             | capableweb wrote:
             | Huh, that's strange, I usually see the opposite when I'm
             | out and about (particularly in Europe/South America).
             | Popular services like Netflix are throttled but downloading
             | huge blobs from my own servers is much faster.
        
               | Aachen wrote:
               | Here in Europe it's all equally fast. I don't remember
               | ever having a throttled service, that sounds like a page
               | out of the dystopian scenarios produced in the era where
               | net neutrality legislation was being proposed/promoted
               | ten years ago or something. There were rumors back then
               | that bittorrent was being throttled (and corresponding
               | protocol obfuscation and port changing) but I never had
               | that myself
        
               | jgtrosh wrote:
               | Fast.com was created specifically to pinpoint the
               | throttling that was actively applied to Netflix in many
               | occurrences back then. It seems to be mostly gone,
               | especially since streaming video now accounts for >50% of
               | web traffic you can't easily throttle it and hope no one
               | notices.
        
               | Aachen wrote:
               | In the USA specifically, I thought? Or which other
               | regions has that happened in? I remember Comcast
               | specifically having a monopoly in many areas and being
               | able to pressure Netflix into getting money from both
               | sides of the fiber (consumers and service providers)
        
               | capableweb wrote:
               | > Here in Europe it's all equally fast
               | 
               | Well, Europe has lots of different countries and I've
               | definitely been in countries that are considered to be in
               | Europe where it's not equally fast, and using a VPN can
               | speed up a lot of things.
        
               | Aachen wrote:
               | TIL. I thought net neutrality legislation was EU-wide
               | actually. Or maybe it is, but not every European country
               | is in the EU, so good point
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | no_time wrote:
               | Isn't this exactly what net neutrality laws are supposed
               | to ban?
        
               | xp84 wrote:
               | sure, but aren't there a lot of places that don't have
               | those? I'd say most of the world doesn't, right?
        
             | ehhthing wrote:
             | Netflix and Google both have servers colocated within ISPs'
             | networks so this is probably why. Also SEA is a routing
             | cesspool, many providers don't do settlement free peering
             | and actively throttle IX routes, which is probably why your
             | Internet was so slow.
        
             | btgeekboy wrote:
             | Fast.com frequently tells me speeds that cannot exist. Why
             | yes, I am definitely getting 1.2gbps over this gigabit
             | Ethernet and 940mbps Internet connection.
        
               | jeroenhd wrote:
               | Fast.com seemingly tries to compensate for the overhead.
               | Bandwidth includes every bit on the wire and that's why
               | "940mbps" internet is usually just normal gigabit with a
               | bunch of packet headers and intentionally unused transmit
               | space consuming the phantom 60mbps.
               | 
               | It's hard to guesstimate the exact bandwidth of the data
               | that arrives in your browser because of differences in
               | protocol, MTU, header compression and all that nonsense,
               | especially over technologies like WiFi. In my experience,
               | the WiFi throughput numbers seem spot on.
               | 
               | Their compensation makes for some hilarious statistics,
               | but when you're downloading more than 200mbps the
               | fast.com speedtest doesn't make much sense anyway. No way
               | in hell is Netflix going to allow your single home
               | internet connection to somehow pull in a full gigabit of
               | streaming video. If you're your own ISP you can make it
               | happen, but on the other hand you'll probably also know
               | how to get statistics directly from your network
               | hardware, in which case the fast.com numbers are useless
               | but it still becomes a useful way to spike the load.
               | 
               | Netflix's speedtest is mostly reliable for what it's
               | meant to do, which is solve the question of "my internet
               | is fast but Netflix keeps buffering".
               | 
               | Edit: another factor to consider is that accurate timing
               | has been disabled in most browsers because of side
               | channel attacks like SPECTRE. It's possible that those
               | are affecting your measurements at very high speeds.
        
             | dspillett wrote:
             | _> I 've found Fast.com gamed sometimes ... the ISP
             | prioritizes Netflix traffic_
             | 
             | The other side of this is why Netflix created Fast.com in
             | the first place: ISPs throttling Netflix traffic (or just
             | having poor peering arrangements that affected it) and
             | blaming Netflix when customers complained about poor video
             | quality (due to Netflix downgrading when experiencing
             | congestion) because some speedtest (that likely the ISP
             | prioritized, or at least knew it had better peering to)
             | gave good numbers.
             | 
             |  _> With Cloudflare I 'm guessing it's a more balanced
             | measure._
             | 
             | Both serve the same purpose for their respective owners: to
             | get good scores on fast.com an ISP can't throttle (or
             | allowed to be throttled by avoidable congestion) Netflix
             | traffic, to get good scores on speed.cloudflare.com they
             | can't throttle (or allowed to be throttled by avoidable
             | congestion) traffic to/from Cloudflair's topologically
             | local DCs.
             | 
             | From a user's point of view using both, plus other tests,
             | gives most meaningful results overall.
        
               | dawnerd wrote:
               | And they've figured out how to get around that. T-Mobile
               | will show full speed on fast but if you have SD video
               | enabled it'll throttle Netflix videos but not fast.
        
           | secondcoming wrote:
           | I find fast.com massively overestimates my speeds.
           | 
           | Interestingly, if you hide the tab running their speedtest
           | you get even higher speeds.
        
             | dspillett wrote:
             | _> I find fast.com massively overestimates my speeds._
             | 
             | I find fast.com more accurate than most, going by the
             | throughput I see to/from other resources, particularly for
             | upstream rates (which some, including Cloudflair, seem to
             | significantly under-measure). Of course this may vary
             | depending on line type (FTTC, "up to 67Mbit down n& 17 up",
             | generally seeing more like 50/12) and location (due to
             | differences in local network conditions and peering between
             | you & the speedtest) to I'm not surprised to hear you see
             | the results quite different to those I experience.
             | 
             |  _> if you hide the tab running their speedtest you get
             | even higher speeds_
             | 
             | I suspect this is due to your browser throttling CPU use
             | and timer granularity for background or occluded tabs0
             | reducing the accuracy of the readings, if the code isn't
             | working to mitigate the effect of these throttles on the
             | calculations.
             | 
             | --
             | 
             | [0] refs: https://blog.chromium.org/2020/11/tab-throttling-
             | and-more-pe..., https://www.reddit.com/r/incremental_games/
             | comments/jefviz/f..., and many more
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | vijaykodam wrote:
           | Google partners with Measurement Lab (M-Lab) to run this
           | test.
        
             | Thoreandan wrote:
             | I liked the detailed output of the M-LAB tests,
             | unfortunately the amount of data has fallen over time.
             | They'd also check for traffic shaping / blocking once upon
             | a time. I think the project lasted only as long as the grad
             | students who wrote it were there.
        
       | chewmieser wrote:
       | Looks great! Didn't realize there was much more that could be
       | improved upon vs the alternatives but I think I'll use this again
       | next time.
       | 
       | A dedicated domain would be nice. I probably wouldn't recommend
       | this to people like fast.com though due to the more complex
       | interface, but I love it!
        
         | superhumanuser wrote:
         | I'm a fan on https://fast.com
         | 
         | Minimal interface. More details behind a toggle if you need
         | them.
        
         | thomasfromcdnjs wrote:
         | I love that it shows you the 90th percentile
        
         | cybrox wrote:
         | I actually really like the interface. You have the "generic"
         | speed test information at the top and a lot more additional
         | information at the bottom. It feels a bit overwhelming at
         | first, though, granted.
        
       | gumballindie wrote:
       | 305 Mbps for me. Cringy how slow internet connetivity is in the
       | UK.
        
         | shmde wrote:
         | I remember me and my brother getting excited when torrent
         | speeds used to touch 200 kbps. Good days.
        
           | jonatron wrote:
           | You can download an entire album in minutes, that's crazy
           | fast!
        
         | maleldil wrote:
         | Are you in London? My 1Gbps link gives 800-900Mbps in these
         | speed tests, and I'm fine with that. It's a pitty that some of
         | that is unused because I need to use a VPN.
         | 
         | When I lived in a small town, my 500Mbps would give me >400Mbps
         | consistently.
        
           | gumballindie wrote:
           | MK area. I wish we had gigabit speeds available.
        
             | jonatron wrote:
             | Googling says there's CityFibre and Giganet in the MK area.
             | Did they skip your house? A fibre company skipped my street
             | in London.
        
               | gumballindie wrote:
               | Never heard of the two frankly. Thanks for sharing.
        
           | secondcoming wrote:
           | That 800-900Mbps doesn't include the bits needed for IP
           | packet headers, does it?
        
             | maleldil wrote:
             | I'm not sure. All I can say is that speedtest.net and
             | fast.com both show 800/ 900 Mbps for download/upload.
        
         | theandrewbailey wrote:
         | Is it cheap?
         | 
         | That's about the same speed for me (in US), and I could get
         | gigabit, but I feel that the ~double cost isn't worth it.
        
           | gumballindie wrote:
           | It costs around 70 USD per month. Pretty expensive considered
           | it's not even gigabit speeds. But as others pointed out I may
           | have better options to consider.
        
         | bdavbdav wrote:
         | Where are you in the UK that you can get 300 but not gigabit?
         | AIUI, you've either got Openreach FTTC (caps out at 80mbps),
         | Openreach FTTH (1gbps), Virgin (1gbps) or various alt nets
         | (usually 1gbps)
        
       | jnsaff2 wrote:
       | Uff. Apparently gives correct readings mostly in Chrome only.
       | 
       | I have a 500/500M connection and on the same computer Chrome
       | gives 465/364 and Firefox has 311/303M.
       | 
       | EDIT: this was on Linux/intel.
       | 
       | On Mac M1Pro it Chrome/FF/Safari all get pretty much the same
       | numbers.
       | 
       | Both computers have wired ethernet.
        
         | moffkalast wrote:
         | I've ran it multiple times in Chrome only and got vastly
         | different results just there, from 200 to 600 down on a 500
         | connection. Must be heavily dependant on moment-to-moment
         | network conditions I guess, to the point where it's nigh
         | useless.
        
           | Pxtl wrote:
           | Yes, the bandwidth test is so short that I'm not surprised it
           | gets inconsistent results. I'd wager the speedtest.net being
           | longer was not decided for fun, but to get more consistent
           | results.
           | 
           | edit: Now I realize that the later tiny-small-medium filesize
           | downloads also add to your above-the-fold download
           | performance, so the results of the initial warm-up test are
           | discarded later.
        
         | neogodless wrote:
         | I don't have Chrome installed, but on Windows / AMD, I get
         | roughly comparable numbers between Edge (340/211) and Firefox
         | (341/253).
        
         | dsissitka wrote:
         | Did you end up on the same server every time? The Atlanta
         | server seems to be OK at the moment.
         | 
         | https://i.imgur.com/SnA9rfH.png
        
         | Shrezzing wrote:
         | I think this is likely to be related to the way different
         | browsers implement time.
         | 
         | In an effort to improve security, browsers reduce fidelity &
         | accuracy on results from the `performance.now()` timer methods.
         | If you attempt to call `performance.now()`, and then call it
         | again within 100 microseconds, your second result isn't
         | guaranteed to be in the future compared to the first result.
         | 
         | https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Performance...
         | 
         | If you're implementing a speedtest feature, you'd likely run
         | `performance.now()` iteratively as your high-resolution-timer,
         | and compare that to the number of bytes downloaded. Browsers
         | that perform more significant coarsing will return worse
         | metric-per-second results in that scenario.
        
           | spacebanana7 wrote:
           | Cumulatively, these quirky edge cases make learning web dev
           | very difficult.
        
       | jgrahamc wrote:
       | If you're interested in this then you might be interested in the
       | global Internet quality data we are publishing:
       | https://radar.cloudflare.com/quality and
       | https://blog.cloudflare.com/introducing-radar-internet-quali...
        
         | akino_germany wrote:
         | Your layout is broken in everything but Chrome.
        
           | jgrahamc wrote:
           | I do not see an issue with Firefox or Safari on my machine.
           | Feel free to email me (jgc@cloudflare.com) with what you are
           | seeing.
        
       | natrys wrote:
       | Where I am, ISPs have arrangements to give intra-country traffic
       | higher speed than inter-country. The nearest cloudflare PoP this
       | chooses is always inside the country, so it gives misleading
       | result.
        
         | notRobot wrote:
         | This is why it's important to consult multiple speed tests,
         | because it's not really a general "internet speed test", rather
         | a "connection speed test" with a particular server.
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | I recently switched ISPs and went from something like 100mbs
           | to 500mbs but because of how the new ISP peers some sites are
           | actually slower now.
           | 
           | Though the main ones I use now I can upload at 1000mbs so not
           | going to complain too loud.
        
       | jerrygenser wrote:
       | I clicked the about link in the top right. I was pleasantly
       | surprised that it was quite a good advertisement for cloudflare
       | workers.
        
       | uncertainrhymes wrote:
       | The level of detail is very nice, I wish more tools exposed this
       | as easily.
       | 
       | That said, please remember this is a test of you through your ISP
       | to a (hopefully) nearby Cloudflare node. It isn't necessarily
       | testing 'the Internet', since Cloudflare sometimes has creative
       | peering relationships to origins that are not being measured
       | here.
       | 
       | Also, for the people complaining they only have 300 Mb/s --
       | unless you are streaming multiple 4K movies there is nothing
       | faster about having more bandwidth. You should care about
       | latency, packet loss, and cache hit rate.
        
         | capableweb wrote:
         | > unless you are streaming multiple 4K movies there is nothing
         | faster about having more bandwidth
         | 
         | Well, having a good network card and frequently downloading
         | large files (which I'm guessing lots of people do here,
         | especially those in ML/AI and related fields), I'm not sure why
         | the downloads wouldn't go faster if you didn't have more
         | bandwidth... People use the internet for more than just
         | watching movies you know.
        
           | Arelius wrote:
           | Yeah, for sure, I'm often syncing multi gigabyte repositories
           | while me and my wife are on video conferences. You really
           | feel the extra bandwidth then.
        
         | nrb wrote:
         | > Also, for the people complaining they only have 300 Mb/s --
         | unless you are streaming multiple 4K movies there is nothing
         | faster about having more bandwidth. You should care about
         | latency, packet loss, and cache hit rate.
         | 
         | Haven't downloaded any 150+ GB games (or patches even these
         | days) off of Steam lately I see
        
           | sushisource wrote:
           | Yeah. Comcast is shorting me by a solid 50Mb/s and this is
           | the reason it's annoying. On top of the fact that their
           | garbage excuse for a website is literally completely broken.
           | Every time I've tried to use it for the past year it just
           | sticks me in a login loop. What a truly miserable company.
        
             | skazazes wrote:
             | I recently discovered that using the Verizon website on
             | Firefox is pretty much impossible, it similarly has
             | nightmarish login/account issues. Whatever issue the
             | browser has with the site even managed to break their new
             | account flow on two installations I've had done in recent
             | months. The installation and appointments were scheduled
             | and performed, but nobody in their support teams can find
             | either account in their systems and I have not received a
             | bill.
             | 
             | 1Gb symmetric at both locations in NYC though and a free
             | Xbox One S and $300 Visa giftcard.
             | 
             | They have essentially paid me to use them as my ISP, and
             | contact from their support teams attempting to figure it
             | out is getting increasingly infrequent
        
               | xp84 wrote:
               | Congrats! Once in a while, the stupidity in systems like
               | this finally works in your favor.
        
           | danpalmer wrote:
           | I think the parent comment is still mostly relevant here.
           | 150GB downloads are not common even for those with games that
           | big. A new install is most likely a ~monthly operation and
           | updates that aren't ready by the time you notice them will be
           | rare.
           | 
           | Sure it would be nice for those few instances, but those are
           | not worth the additional cost for almost any individual or
           | family if they actually work out the time saved waiting.
        
         | networkchad wrote:
         | [dead]
        
       | askvictor wrote:
       | You also probably need some internal/LAN speed measurement tools.
       | When your wifi link is over-crowded, measuring your uplink isn't
       | much use. I use iperf3.
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | Many hosting/VPS providers run iperf3 servers you can hit,
         | which can be useful.
         | 
         | Why, here's some now!
         | 
         | https://github.com/R0GGER/public-iperf3-servers
        
       | AtNightWeCode wrote:
       | Historically this service is known for being highly incorrect.
        
       | eviks wrote:
       | No way to use bytes instead of bits in the output?
        
         | cpfohl wrote:
         | Not how it's usually measured...link speed is pretty much
         | always in bits/s
        
           | eviks wrote:
           | So what if it's usually bad?
        
           | LoganDark wrote:
           | I don't measure file size in bits. I don't want to
           | multiply/divide by 8 when roughly estimating how long a
           | download will take. I end up doing 10 instead for maximum
           | ease and pessimism.
        
             | bombcar wrote:
             | At least it's no longer in baud.
        
             | cpfohl wrote:
             | Link speed has always been measured in bits/s or as sibling
             | comment suggests baud which is, still, just bits per
             | second.
             | 
             | Obviously a huge part of this is marketing for modems,
             | ISPs, network cards, etc. but it's consistent. The
             | conversion to GB/s is fairly simple and doable with the
             | super key, or super space on Mac in every modern OS...
             | 
             | I agree with you that the difference is irritating, but
             | wouldn't have done any different if I were Cloudflare.
        
               | denton-scratch wrote:
               | > baud which is, still, just bits per second.
               | 
               | Isn't the baud-rate the number of signal transitions per
               | second? How that maps to bits per second depends on the
               | wire encoding.
        
               | cpfohl wrote:
               | This is probably more accurate! I was relying on fuzzy
               | memories from an era long past! Thanks for the
               | correction.
        
           | jsd1982 wrote:
           | But it's not measuring link speed directly. It's measuring
           | transfer rate through TCP which is byte oriented. It's not
           | possible to receive partial bytes via TCP (or UDP for that
           | matter).
        
       | secondcoming wrote:
       | Maybe it's because I'm using 5G as my home broadband, but it
       | seems massively off when compared to Google's SpeedTest and
       | SpeedTest.net
        
       | mstade wrote:
       | I tried this on my home wifi (fiber backend) and got scores in
       | range with what I expect. Then I tried it again outside the
       | house, a block away using a 5G connection and much to my surprise
       | the bandwidth in downloading was MUCH better (almost 3x) and
       | upload somewhat better (1.5x). The 5G connection had worse
       | latency characteristics though, which is to be expected of
       | course.
       | 
       | Obviously this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison, but I
       | mention it because I'm genuinely surprised that 5G works this
       | well. I've read all the claims but this is the first time I
       | measure it, and frankly if I didn't need lower latency I might've
       | just considered ditching the fiber.
        
         | giraffe_lady wrote:
         | LTE was like this for a year or two also, in the areas that got
         | it deployed first before handsets using it were widely
         | available. It was several times faster than wired consumer
         | internet at the time, though I also remember the latency not
         | being great.
         | 
         | Then within a product cycle or two everyone's phones had it and
         | it went back to normal. I'd expect a similar thing here enjoy
         | it while it lasts I guess.
        
       | grumpy_coder wrote:
       | Would be nice to aggregate some of these together. One 'speed'
       | has always been a bad proxy for all the different speeds you get
       | from ISP local caches (that most companies can't get in), local
       | COLO/CDN, regional AWS/Azure/etc... and us-east
        
       | haivri wrote:
       | Wow, the level of detail exposed here is the best I've seen,
       | super useful.
        
       | JimmaDaRustla wrote:
       | The measured speeds are very inaccurate at times - it will often
       | measure low on download and high on upload. Just used it and it
       | rated my connection 277/48 on a 300/30 connection.
        
       | jedisct1 wrote:
       | What are speed tests that work from the command line?
        
         | uncertainrhymes wrote:
         | If you have easy access to an arbitrarily large file (or an
         | online random file generator) curl has timing variables that
         | can be exposed via the -w flag.
         | 
         | e.g. Create a format file named curltime.txt containing:
         | 
         | time_namelookup: %{time_namelookup}s\n time_connect:
         | %{time_connect}s\n time_redirect: %{time_redirect}s\n
         | time_starttransfer: %{time_starttransfer}s\n ----------\n
         | time_total: %{time_total}s\n
         | 
         | then
         | 
         | curl -svo /dev/null -w "@curltime.txt"
         | https://example.com/my_arbitrary_file
         | 
         | Would result in something like:
         | 
         | time_namelookup: 0.048205s time_connect: 0.079001s
         | time_redirect: 0.000000s time_starttransfer: 0.377603s
         | ---------- time_total: 0.412150s
        
           | jedisct1 wrote:
           | That doesn't provide any information about jitter, latency,
           | packet loss, DNS, location, etc.
        
       | sva_ wrote:
       | Very cool site, wish there was a dark mode.
        
       | tebbers wrote:
       | Pretty much bang on for me. 202 down, 195 up where my ISP has
       | sold me 200Mbps symmetric. CommunityFibre in London, UK.
        
       | rishishah20 wrote:
       | It's Awesome, giving almost right result
        
       | sorenjan wrote:
       | I have a 250 Mb/s connection, but this claims I have over 440
       | Mb/s download speed. When looking closer at the details I get 250
       | Mb/s on all tests except the 1 MB download, so it's probably
       | because of some compression or caching or similar, but I don't
       | get the point of the larger tests if they don't affect the final
       | score. I have never downloaded anything faster than 250 Mb/s
       | before, so this is not a good reflection of my actual internet
       | speed.
        
         | jonathanlydall wrote:
         | I suspect that your line has a configured limit as opposed to
         | physical limit of 250mb/s (perhaps the fibre equipment is
         | capable of 500mb/s or something).
         | 
         | I've seen this ever since I moved to fibre about 8 years ago,
         | I've never taken the fastest packages and whenever I test on
         | speedtest.net it always starts off exceeding my limit, then
         | comes down to my limit over a short while.
         | 
         | The limiter for you may very well allow you to burst for a
         | limited duration, so your speed on 1MB files are possibly at
         | 440mb/s, but once you have sustained line usage it brings you
         | down to your limit. I wouldn't know if this is an intentional
         | feature or just because of how the limiter solution is
         | implemented that it needs to sample over a certain period of
         | time.
         | 
         | It is a slightly useful behaviour if you're browsing the web
         | and only occasionally clicking links which land up being
         | downloaded way faster than your normal limit, but as you're
         | only getting this speed if you do little to nothing for the 10s
         | or 100s of seconds between opening pages, it doesn't have any
         | negative effects over all.
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | It's actually quite a hard problem to limit a fast physical
           | connection to a slower speed for a burst - so much so that
           | some tests are much easier with an old 10/100 hub.
           | 
           | What's nice is when you pay for a certain speed and they give
           | you more if nobody's using the excess. That's more rare now
           | but still can be encountered, especially on upload.
        
           | sorenjan wrote:
           | Then why is the 100 kB test the slowest, with a max speed of
           | 115 Mb/s? And no upload test gets above 250 Mb/s.
           | 
           | The speed is very clearly throttled by the ISP though, they
           | sell a faster package that I don't need. I'm not complaining,
           | I've just never seen this burst behavior anywhere else.
        
             | tweenagedream wrote:
             | This is because of the way tcp congestion control works. In
             | order to achieve higher speeds, tcp has a "window" that
             | grows, essentially the amount of data in flight, that has
             | not yet been acknowledged by your client. That window
             | doesn't open very wide in the 100kb test because it happens
             | so quickly.
        
           | jnsaff2 wrote:
           | I have seen similar shaping. This gives a quick responsive
           | browsing experience but throttles bigger downloads/streaming.
           | 
           | It also can be implemented badly. Azure VNET peering had 200M
           | level and 100M level. Where 200M level was 200M most of the
           | time, whereas 100M level was 200M for 30s and 0M for the next
           | 30s.
        
         | oneshtein wrote:
         | Provider turned on "burst mode" for your link, for better
         | customer experience.
        
       | aidenn0 wrote:
       | The upload speed numbers are highly suspect. I have cable that
       | shows 32Mbps on every test I've ever run and yet CF is showing an
       | absurd 221Mbps
       | 
       | [edit]
       | 
       | I saw the more detailed information below. The high speed comes
       | entirely from 2 outliers on the 1MB upload test; all of the 10MB
       | tests were clustered around 32Mbps
       | 
       | [edit2]
       | 
       | I reran and got similar results again with 3 1MB uploads over
       | 200Mbps and all other uploads clustered around 32Mbps
        
       | remram wrote:
       | Supports IPv6 too. That's a nice surprise.
        
         | jgrahamc wrote:
         | We've been massive advocates of IPv6 since at least 2012:
         | https://blog.cloudflare.com/ipv6-challenge-to-the-web/
        
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