[HN Gopher] Developers are building communities that act as thei...
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Developers are building communities that act as their own miniature
power grids
Author : mhb
Score : 138 points
Date : 2023-08-08 13:56 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| rndmize wrote:
| This is something I've been curious/interested in for a long
| time, so its good to see that somewhere out there (random Pacific
| islands aside), there's communities making it work.
|
| Some rough numbers I did a month or two ago - Tesla offers a
| megapack that has 3.9 MWh at a cost of $2.4m. "In 2021, the
| average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. home was 10,632
| kilowatt-hours (kWh). Or about 886 kWh per month." That's about
| 30 kWh per day; my community has 45 houses, so use of 1.35 MWh in
| total, so a megapack will provide power for 3 days for the
| community at a cost of ~50k per house. Probably not worth it and
| I'd expect 3 days to be overkill. But a community that was double
| our size will have a cost of about 25k per unit for 1.5 days of
| power - which doesn't sound too bad to me.
|
| Another thing I've found interesting is Anker seems to be getting
| into the home power business - https://www.anker.com/anker-
| solix/home-energy-solutions?ref=... - which I'm hopeful about,
| since it doesn't seem like anyone except Tesla has been able to
| make something that feels simple/easy/attractive. Every time I've
| look at Powerwall alternatives I'm been unimpressed by the
| offerings; maybe Anker can deliver.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| Realistically you could get that number 6x smaller, because
| people could voluntarily cut their usage from 30kwh to 15 when
| the power is out, and 1.5 days of power is probably overkill
| when 12 hours would get you through 99% of power out scenarios
| in America.
|
| On top of that, when the grid is functioning normally, you
| could use the batteries to get cheaper electric rates with time
| of use pricing.
| maliker wrote:
| Pair the storage with some solar, and you could probably reduce
| the storage size or increase the survival duration (or both).
|
| Here's a fun tool that lets you play around with the balance of
| these things and see the expected cost:
| https://reopt.nrel.gov/tool
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| I never stop to be amazed how average consumption figures in
| the US are often at least 100 per cent bigger than in Europe.
| At least for water and electricity, let alone fuel.
|
| Just a thought that naturally pops up... :
|
| If you take the reasoning one step back, wouldn't it be easier
| to optimize the consumption side (low hanging fruit) in favour
| if optimizing the cost per unit of energy? The latter seems a
| lot of effort, at least for the devs.
| cultofmetatron wrote:
| its pretty easy to understand when you spend significant time
| in both.
|
| european cities: typically built for density. I'm never more
| than a 10 minuite walk to a grocery store. I can hop on a
| train or tram to get to work and I can usually stop to get
| groceries for the day on the way. if you're in a city like
| athens, you can get fresh fish and meat. was probably
| dreaming of finding a mate or eating fresh acorns on the
| other side of the pasture barely a day ago.
|
| USA: Its a hellish landscape of urban sprawl. want to get
| sone milk or eggs? its illegal in most place for there to
| exist a grocery store within walking distance. be prepared to
| walk along the side of a busy road to get to a convenience
| store which might have what you are looking for. maybe
| there's a sidewalk if you're lucky. Every damn trip requires
| a car. your work place is probably 30 min drive minimum.
| there is no other way to get to work. since getting to the
| store requires effort, you're going to go get a week's worth
| of groceries to save time. fresh meat? nah, killed weeks ago
| in a centralized slaughter house and shipped accross the
| country after a life of being fed corn farmed with chemical
| fertilizers and shipped to the animals in temperature
| controlled facilities. better keep a large fridge to hold it
| all. wouldn't want it to spoil before you eat it.
|
| you literally can't live in the USA without increasing your
| consumption. its built into the dna of our infrastructure.
| eddy_chan wrote:
| I would imagine in the southern states where it's 40 degrees
| C+ every day for 3 months-4 months or more on end the
| heatpump (aka reverse cycle a/c) is basically kept on
| constantly. Let's say it draws 1kw on average, that's 24kwh
| right there. They actually draw more than that. There's no
| way around it if you want to live comfortably. But I think
| the whole society is designed so much around driving
| everywhere and living in detached houses that the low hanging
| fruit is actually to install solar/batteries for these guys.
| s_tec wrote:
| I recently installed an Enphase home backup system as a DIY
| project (crazy, I know). The biggest problem with any home-
| backup system is moving the loads onto their own sub-panel.
| When the utility goes down, power needs to flow into the home,
| but _not_ to the rest of the neighborhood. To do this, a switch
| needs to physically disconnect the utility meter from the main
| loads panel. If this isn 't possible (such as when the meter is
| integrated into the panel), all the loads need to move to a
| sub-panel. This is the hard part.
|
| Once the meter and main panel are separate, the various backup
| solutions become pretty similar. The disconnect switch installs
| between the two, with the solar and battery attached. Sometimes
| the disconnect switch + solar + battery are all in one unit
| (like the Bluetti EP900), while sometimes the solar inverter,
| battery, and switch are all separate units (like Tesla or
| Enphase). The Tesla switch and battery are sleek & glossy, but
| the inverters are ugly. The Enphase stuff isn't quite as shiny,
| but at least the boxes look consistent.
|
| Performance-wise, the systems seem pretty similar as well. Most
| systems are around $10K for 10KWh of capacity, with somewhere
| around 6-9 KW of peak discharge rate. I imagine these prices
| will drop a lot over the next decades. If the battery becomes
| obsolete, just install a different system. Once the home is
| correctly wired, swapping the storage system should be pretty
| straightforward.
| rstupek wrote:
| Why did you choose the Enphase system versus any of the
| others? How much capacity did you install and is it
| upgradeable?
| s_tec wrote:
| I like the distributed architecture. Each solar panel has
| its own inverter, as well as each battery. If I want more
| panels or batteries, I just add them in parallel with the
| existing panels or batteries. If a panel or battery goes
| down, the remaining ones keep working. Avoiding high-
| voltage DC also makes the project more DIY-friendly. The
| downside is that Enphase requires users to take online
| classes before they grant access to the installer app (easy
| but time-consuming).
|
| Right now I have 3.8KW of solar and a single 3.3KWh
| battery. We are producing more than we use most months, so
| the solar is good but the battery is undersized. If we have
| an extended grid-down scenario like what happened in Texas,
| the system will mainly provide daytime backup plus a few
| evening hours. This is still better than nothing, and we
| can easily add more batteries as we have the budget.
| rstupek wrote:
| Thanks for the info. Do you know how much you saved by
| doing the install yourself? Did you also do the solar
| install? I was considering using a battery to time shift
| power as my power provider has free nights.
| s_tec wrote:
| I installed the solar first, which cost about $10k for
| parts, plans, and permits. I got quotes between $18k -
| $26k for the same-sized system professionally installed,
| so this was a great savings for 3-4 weekends of physical
| effort.
|
| I don't know how much I saved on the battery, since I
| didn't get any quotes. The battery was vastly more time
| and effort, since I had to move my house onto that backup
| loads panel.
|
| If you just want to shift usage, the backup panel may not
| be necessary. The Enphase batteries do support a fully
| grid-tied mode, where they simply connect to your main
| panel as a branch circuit. I'm sure other brands do too.
| This would be an easy DIY weekend project, as opposed to
| a months-long home re-wiring project. The Enphase
| mandatory training would be the biggest downside for
| using them here.
| hedora wrote:
| Not the person you asked, but Enphase has a reputation of
| being much more reliable then the Tesla stuff. You can have
| up to 40kWh of batteries. I think the peak wattage is also
| higher per kWh than powerwalls.
|
| Also, we tried to get Tesla to install solar on our roof,
| and will never do business with them (especially that half
| of the company) again. There's a reason their solar market
| share is plummeting. Many news stories have been written on
| this subject. I won't repeat them here.
|
| LG and Generac also make home batteries. From what I can
| tell, their offerings are also fine.
|
| The main limitation of all the existing systems (vs. the
| recently-announced Anker) is that they scale amperage
| linearly with capacity. This is a pain because the
| batteries produce way more current than you need, but you
| have to pay for an electrical bus that can handle peak
| output. This is why the enphase is limited to 40kWh.
|
| I'd strongly recommend against trying to do the
| installation of the Enphase yourself. It's extremely hands
| on.
| rstupek wrote:
| I didn't see much in the way of details on the Anker site
| regarding their system. It seems none of the companies
| selling their systems make it as easy as tesla to order
| one.
| newZWhoDis wrote:
| You don't need an isolation switch if you use a sol ark 15k
| or EG4 18k, you can just tie the grid straight in and they
| have isolation built in if the grid goes down.
| jaggederest wrote:
| This is the way I'm looking to go once I get a few thousand
| together. They're really impressive hardware and the
| software is tolerable and updatable.
| rsync wrote:
| "To do this, a switch needs to physically disconnect the
| utility meter from the main loads panel ... this is the hard
| part.
|
| It doesn't need to be.
|
| You can just use a physical interlock and toggle between
| utility breaker and (any input you want) breaker.
|
| You can do this on an integrated meter panel.
|
| This is a dead-simple configuration that you can comprehend -
| and verify - with your own eyes.
|
| The lock-out switch is NEC compliant, utility approved, etc.:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Generator-Interlock-Compatible-
| Homeli...
|
| Yes, you do lose all power for a second or two but ... so
| much simpler and comprehensible than an ATX solution.
| bombcar wrote:
| You don't move the loads to the sub panel. You make a new
| main panel, move the feed to that, and turn the old main
| panel into a sub panel. Much easier.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Third option: you get a panel of experts and they tell you
| what to do with the panel.
| ketzo wrote:
| Sort of a silly question -- how do you know that? Where
| would you recommend I start reading if I wanted to know
| things like that?
| s_tec wrote:
| The National Electrical Code contains the rules for this
| sort of thing, plus whatever extra rules your local
| jurisdiction adds. I bought a copy of the code itself
| plus an "Illustrated Guide to the National Electrical
| Code" to learn this stuff. There are lots of YouTube
| videos for electricians, by electricians. DIY channels
| can also be helpful, but they don't always follow code.
|
| In my case, the local utility requires the electrical
| meter to be accessible (obviously) and to be a certain
| distance from the gas meter (obviously). Because of the
| way my house is shaped, there simply isn't room to move
| the electrical meter, so a sub-panel was the simplest
| option. Anything else would involve tearing open the
| driveway, which would be worse. It really depends on the
| situation.
| bombcar wrote:
| I'd start with this book: https://www.amazon.com/Wiring-
| House-Sixth-Rex-Cauldwell-dp-1... (prerelease, but the
| earlier versions are good)
|
| It'll give you a really good introduction to house
| electrical systems, things like "any panel that is
| connected directly to the utility is the main panel, any
| panel that is connected to a panel with a shutoff is a
| sub panel".
| ketzo wrote:
| This is absolutely perfect, thank you!
| timnetworks wrote:
| If you were asking about anything else the answers could
| come from anywhere, but for this;
|
| https://catalog.nfpa.org/NFPA-70-National-Electrical-
| Code-NE...
| tired_star_nrg wrote:
| Solar energy international is a great resource for
| learning about solar & battery system design:
|
| https://www.solarenergy.org/
| hkt wrote:
| It'd become much more sustainable to do what you're talking
| about if it was accompanied by energy saving measures. Do it
| well and you could easily aim for 5kWh per day per house by
| minimising heating and cooling choices.
| momirlan wrote:
| anker, being a Chinese manufacturer, doesn't have much chance
| to penetrate the western markets. even assuming they can
| develop a dependable product. but I wouldn't trust more than a
| headphone, or a wall charger from them.
| croes wrote:
| Pretty strange view, when you consider that China still is
| the workbench of the world.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Anker knows batteries and their LiFePO4 batteries are solid
| stuff (as are their traditional lithium cells).
|
| Even if you prefer a US maker, competition will help lower
| prices.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| I agree on being careful with China goods in general, but
| Anker is one of the very few very trustworthy brands out
| there. IIRC, the only fuck-up regarding batteries they did
| was with the 535 power banks, and they handled that one very
| solidly [1].
|
| [1] https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/anker-recalls-
| some-535-p...
| mschild wrote:
| Unfortunately, no they're not. Anker owns Eufy and they had
| some massive issues.
|
| https://www.digitaltrends.com/home/anker-admit-eufy-
| security...
| adql wrote:
| > Probably not worth it and I'd expect 3 days to be overkill.
| But a community that was double our size will have a cost of
| about 25k per unit for 1.5 days of power - which doesn't sound
| too bad to me.
|
| If you're not looking to go completely off-grid, I think you
| want to double it again. At basic level, battery pack is there
| to soak solar power during a day and give it off when the solar
| is down.
|
| 16 hours is enough to cover most or all of that..
|
| I think the model could work if the local community basically
| "sold" the battery storage capacity to the users.
|
| Pay few cents for kWh to store it for 24 hours, anything in
| excess can be sold back to residents at slightly lower than
| market price, producing some money for maintenance and
| upgrades.
| nathancahill wrote:
| Highly recommend reading "The Grid: The Fraying Wires Between
| Americans and Our Energy Future" if this is your cup of tea.
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| Is there a good technical analysis on whether microgrids are
| helpful in the context of a first world country with a reliable,
| well-run large electricity grid?
|
| On the face of it, larger grids seem better. I simply don't
| believe this claim in the NYT article: "microgrid also eases the
| burden on the local utility, because it can disconnect from the
| larger grid during a period of overload". (Either the microgrid
| doesn't have enough power or has too much; either way it'd be
| better to share its resources, no?)
|
| As a PG&E customer I'm stretching a lot to assume "a reliable,
| well-run grid". I've got my own picogrid here with solar and a
| generator because our grid is so badly run. But I'm still a
| technocrat optimist and think most grids can be run at very large
| scale well. Am I wrong?
| maliker wrote:
| The US grid is still pretty reliable now, but it's been getting
| worse and worse.
|
| E.g. see some of the recent NERC reports
| https://www.powermag.com/nerc-warns-of-mounting-reliability-...
| kccqzy wrote:
| During a period of overload, which I interpret to mean the
| demand exceeding both traditional supply and micro grid supply,
| there has to be some kind of disconnection to protect the grid.
| When that disconnection happens, micro grids can at least still
| power limited number of appliances.
|
| Making the grid larger and more extensively shared power
| decreases the probability of overload but increases the
| inconvenience when such overload does happen.
| bluGill wrote:
| > "microgrid also eases the burden on the local utility,
| because it can disconnect from the larger grid during a period
| of overload". (Either the microgrid doesn't have enough power
| or has too much; either way it'd be better to share its
| resources, no?)
|
| Maybe, but probably not. The microgrid is often much more
| expensive than the regular grid, and provides noisy power that
| the grid doesn't want. Think diesel generators. Getting those
| power sources to sync up with the grid is tricky and adds much
| higher costs to equipment that most places don't need.
|
| Some utilities will give you a discount on your power if a few
| times on their busiest days you agree to disconnect from the
| main grid and run your backup. These are days when power is
| most expensive for everyone (the grid is running their more
| expensive power sources), so that the microgrid is also using
| expensive power balances out. It is generally only considered
| worth doing this if you already are thinking about having a
| microgrid that can work when the local power goes out. However
| if you are already thinking about installing such a system you
| can save a lot of money by being able to separate from the
| regular grid on demand - but it isn't enough to pay for the
| install and maintenance costs of the microgrid.
|
| Now if your microgrid is solar you provide clean power that is
| easy to sync up with the rest of the grid. To make solar work
| as a micro grid requires expensive batteries (which need to be
| maintained and replaced correctly). So for solar installs
| connecting to the grid makes sense if you can as it is cheaper.
| Even if you do want the microgrid for power outages, you can
| get by on a much cheaper system if you don't buy a system large
| enough to handle your worst case usage (which is a long
| sequence of cloudy days in winter)
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Microgrids aren't exactly new; essential campus type facilities
| (hospitals, universities, emergency services, military
| facilities, etc.) have often run their own grids. The major
| difference is that it is now starting to get affordable for
| residential.
|
| The particular problem it solves is mostly the cascade. You can
| disconnect to insulate from cascading failure, you can probably
| restart a microgrid easier since it's less things to sync, etc.
| And a cascade can happen for all sorts of reasons, whether that
| be operator error (2003 Northeast blackout), a natural disaster
| that hits the wrong way (hurricane/tornado/earthquake/tsunami)
| or intentional human disaster (Ukraine)
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| Here is a nice link to a university microgrid explanation
| [0]. They claim that it allows them to isolate the failure
| (external or internal) and continue to provide power to the
| rest of the campus in 1/10 of a second:
|
| > Prior to the installation of the microgrid, Illinois Tech
| experienced three or more power outages each year, at a cost
| of up to $500,000 annually in restoration expenses, lost
| productivity, and ruined experiments that often cannot be
| recovered.
|
| [0] https://www.iit.edu/microgrid
| samtho wrote:
| As the cost of this equipment goes down, this can totally become
| commonplace, what I fear is the HOA being the monopoly energy,
| telco, water, and sewage provider that can then charge ridiculous
| rates because it simply resell from the upstream provider. They
| can also make the rules on what, if any, value a homeowner can
| derive from solar panels on their roof, perhaps even going so far
| as to say that they belong to the HOA and are required to have
| them on their roof.
| applied_heat wrote:
| Electric co-ops generally have lower rates and are better
| managed than larger utilities
| samtho wrote:
| For ones serving municipalities or communities, sure. My
| electric company is a co-op, but it is also not a dedicated
| reseller as it generates most of its power and usually has
| surplus it sells to PG&E.
|
| With an HOA, the very land your home is built on has this
| sort of lien via a "special property assessment" and you are
| subject to their policy or risk having your home taken in a
| 100% legal way. My electric company cannot do that to me.
| applied_heat wrote:
| If I don't pay my property taxes the local municipality
| takes my house too, and they spend money on all kinds of
| stuff that doesn't benefit me directly or perhaps at all.
| tracerbulletx wrote:
| If you don't think the HOA is acting in your benefit do you not
| feel you can affect change by going to the meetings and
| building a coalition of your neighbors to take control?
| anjel wrote:
| HOAs are in many cases a collection of opinionated amateurs
| making binding decisions on behalf of their disinterested
| neighbors. See also 'special assessments' And that's the best
| case scenario. HOAs can get a tad 'authoritarian' at least
| according to John Oliver: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qrizm
| Ao17Os&pp=ygUPam9obiBvbGl...
| mschuster91 wrote:
| You generally don't stand a chance in a HOA if you're not a
| pensioner who has the time to actually go to meetings and wad
| through paperwork.
| chrisbolt wrote:
| Even so, who in the HOA wants _higher_ prices?
| lbotos wrote:
| I suspect the fear is "HOA wants a new million dollar
| pool" and wants to pay for it with "profits" from the
| energy costs.
| ultrarunner wrote:
| I wonder how a fee charged to be on the board of an HOA
| would change this sort of behavior. I wonder how
| increasing it would change the nature of of decision
| making.
| sowbug wrote:
| A kickback -- maybe getting a $5,000 vacation in exchange
| for voting for a superfluous service contract -- can
| easily offset an extra $50/month fee... for the one board
| member who cast the corrupt vote.
|
| Same as all politics: it's a shared cost, but somehow I
| benefit more than you do.
| happytiger wrote:
| HOAs serve as a launching pad for lesser politicians and
| can do some pretty twisted stuff in my experience -- they
| frequently serve as platforms for tiny tyrants.
|
| Also, they are often corrupted by corporate influence.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| Or I could simply never, _ever_ buy a home with an HOA,
| unless it 's a condo.
|
| Why on earth would I willingly give up the rights to do what
| I wish with my own property as long as I follow city codes?
|
| ...and no, 'property values' don't cut it. I don't even
| consider my home when factoring my productive net worth.
| chankstein38 wrote:
| Not to mention HOAs usually come with a fee sometimes hefty
| enough to seem like a second mortgage payment. I'm with you
| I don't understand why anyone would pay hundreds of
| thousands for something then let the worst members of their
| neighborhood make decisions about what they can do with it.
| bluGill wrote:
| Sure, if I have time. The point of a republic form of
| government is that you vote every few years and then live
| your life. While it does take time to figure out who to vote
| for you don't have to figure out every petty issue, some of
| which you don't even care about (in a pure democracy you have
| to decide, and that means learn about them even though you
| don't care)
|
| HOAs are too small to attract good people to run. (nations
| are too large and attract tyrants)
| samtho wrote:
| This has been my stance on the issue, but I am just
| pessimistic for the first generation of HOA leadership
| because it tends to attract nosy, controlling busybodies that
| love draconian rules. It's not until those people die off or
| move where new leadership has an opportunity to flourish.
|
| Additionally, my statement was more generalized view of how
| it could be used, obviously if a homeowner finds themselves
| in this situation, the strategy would be to gather neighbors
| support and demand it to be changed or just do a hostile
| takeover of the HOA.
| louwrentius wrote:
| Better Title: Microgrids Are Giving Power to Rich People
| franl wrote:
| Rich is obviously very relative, but for many reading on this
| site, $300-400k is a reasonable home price (the price cited in
| the article). And the couple in the article paid even less.
| "The couple, who paid in the low $200,000s for their
| 1,350-square-foot, three-bedroom home, moved into the community
| last July."
| comrh wrote:
| North Carolina in case anyone else is curious
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| It's mildly ironic that one of the drivers of solar, battery and
| EV uptake in the US is private individuals responding to the
| fallability of the grid and planning for when their connection
| fails.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Grid fragility leads to distributed resilience while driving
| down the cost of the tech you mentioned as volume ramps.
| Innovation cannibalism. Systems working as intended.
| hinkley wrote:
| Reduced load is reduced funding which leads to poor people
| dying in heat wave.
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| I'm not sure about that. Home solar will offload unused
| power to the grid. And the utility will often only give you
| kWh credits which don't roll over forever. Homeowners are
| paying for the utility's infrastructure expansion on their
| own dime and giving them some proportion of _free_ power.
| The utility goes from being the primary generator of power
| to being primarily an interconnection system. That means
| poor people are getting subsidized power from rich people.
|
| Throw in the strong incentive for homeowners to perform
| power arbitrage and the whole system gets more stable.
| zaroth wrote:
| It's a pithy conjecture, but I'm unconvinced.
|
| Technological progress like this is almost always made
| possible through middle and upper class investment in what
| start as luxury products. Capitalism drives the innovation
| cycle which brings scale and efficiency.
|
| This is how complex and innovative products become
| mainstream and affordable. The opposite of poor people
| dying in heat waves, solar reduces peak stress on the grid
| making it more resilient and driving down costs.
| hinkley wrote:
| You guys only want to talk about externalities after
| they're already happening to someone. That is not
| sustainable.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Funding goes to shareholders, not infrastructure, which is
| neglected to juice profits. Micro grids ensures funds stay
| local, and are governed by the users. What would have
| become profits is now infrastructure and user savings.
|
| Edit: Poor people already die because they can't afford
| their utility bills. Micro grids will help more than
| convincing utilities to be benevolent and reduce utility
| bills.
|
| (Have advocated for low income solar and installed more
| than one rooftop solar system on the roof of those not of
| means; their electric rates are locked in for decades, as
| the systems have a 25 year warranty and will continue to
| produce after that, while utility fuel prices will continue
| to rise as will their demand to see a return on equity;
| AMA)
| giantg2 wrote:
| Most electric utilities have programs designed to reduce
| load because they don't want to expand capacity. Programs
| like replacing your inefficient old fridge, or incandescent
| to LED bulbs and such.
|
| This is going to be especially true as EV adoption takes
| off. It could be hard to keep up with increases in demand.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > Most electric utilities have programs designed to
| reduce load because they don't want to expand capacity.
|
| It's not just that. For society at large, the less
| electricity is consumed the better for the environment -
| _all_ power generation comes at a serious cost: nuclear
| may be the most efficient but raises the question of
| security (especially in earthquake-prone areas or
| potential hurricane /flood zones), environmental
| contamination caused by mining, waste storage and nuclear
| weapon material proliferation; solar takes up a lot of
| space and requires energy-intensive and polluting
| production steps; windmills are a danger to flight; all
| fossil fuels are bad due to CO2 and the impact of however
| they are mined; running water is bad for fish migration;
| dam water consumes large amounts of land and is a perfect
| target to hit in a war (as the Russians showed in Ukraine
| a few weeks ago); geothermal carries a risk of
| earthquakes.
| scrlk wrote:
| > Most electric utilities have programs designed to
| reduce load because they don't want to expand capacity.
| Programs like replacing your inefficient old fridge, or
| incandescent to LED bulbs and such.
|
| I don't think there's anything wrong with going for the
| cheaper option first (reducing demand via consumer
| incentives), before building more infrastructure when
| it's truly needed.
|
| Re: EV adoption - I think smart charging will play a
| large role. E.g. if you come home from work at 1800, do
| you need to start charging immediately if you're going to
| leave the house at 0830 the next day? Spreading out EV
| charging demand over the evening and early morning could
| reduce the need to add more capacity.
| hinkley wrote:
| The reasonable option is probably to trickle charge in
| case you need to go to the store, then ramp up after peak
| hours.
|
| From a public policy standpoint that matters more while
| you're grid powered, but with batteries peak draw affects
| overall power availability, so you'd still want to charge
| the vehicle slowly while the AC is on and cooking is
| happening. Same class of problem, different scale.
| giantg2 wrote:
| It could also be ideal for many people to charge at work
| during the day. Fleet vehicles would need to charge at
| night. Plus, if we're using renewable, that's less energy
| storage needed for the solar generated during the day.
| hinkley wrote:
| You're talking about how it starts. I'm talking about how
| it ends.
| giantg2 wrote:
| That still doesn't make sense to me. There won't be any
| reduction in load. Load will continue to increase as we
| electrify more things. Currently, increased load is what
| is leading to power outages in certain areas.
| jsight wrote:
| TBH, I think EV adoption is mostly a benefit. As consumer
| appliances go, it is the closest thing to truly
| addressable demand in common use.
|
| Leveling out gw usage is more important than decreasing
| total gwh used.
| reacharavindh wrote:
| Haven't read the article because it is behind a paywall. Based on
| the title, I have a comment. I hope the battery tech catches up
| fast that we can have safe (one that is not vulnerable to runaway
| fire even at as low probability as LFP batteries of today are),
| and also hold about 50KwH of energy so as to serve as an
| effective buffer for most households.
| fabiofzero wrote:
| Power companies should be the ones proposing, subsidising and
| installing these to replace traditional power grids.
|
| Of course it will never happen because "iT hURtS tHe boTToM lInE"
| and "fIDuCiaRy oBlIGatION" but this is the way.
| hpb42 wrote:
| I always wondered if flywheels[0] would be a good alternative to
| batteries to store energy. Flywheels can absorb peak current,
| help stabilize grid frequency[1] and can have high efficiency.
|
| But I haven't seen much on the topic, and a lot in chemical
| batteries.
|
| What are the prices and downsides of flywheels? Does anyone have
| an up date comparison of commercial solutions with TeslaWall and
| similar?
|
| - [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage - [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_storage_power_system#...
| btbuildem wrote:
| Sounds like they are -- thanks for the links, that was an
| interesting review!
| herlitzj wrote:
| https://www.torus.co/torus-flywheel
| reacharavindh wrote:
| That looks very cool. Mechanical energy storage. Any idea
| what the return efficiency of such a device is? And guesses
| about its cost?
| herlitzj wrote:
| No idea. But interestingly enough, it looks like someone
| built a grid scale version in PA with funds from the 2008
| Recovery Act. There's a final tech report here https://www.
| smartgrid.gov/project/hazle_spindle_20mws_flywhe... in the
| Related Docs
| ketzo wrote:
| well, if nothing else, that thing looks futuristic as hell
|
| would love to point out in my yard and say "oh, that? that's
| our mechanical energy storage device"
| chankstein38 wrote:
| For transparency, I'm not very well versed on this topic. That
| said, one concern I've always had with flywheel systems is that
| it ends up being a crazy heavy thing spinning at a decent rate.
| I don't know how valid it is but many years of being around
| maker communities and stuff has given me a respect for heavy
| things spinning at decent speeds.
|
| They do seem like they would be a simple effective way to get
| some brownout or power flicker protection though!
| eldaisfish wrote:
| flywheels solve a narrow problem and are worse than batteries
| at delivering long term energy. The examples linked in other
| comments are around 10 kWh of energy. Most north american
| houses consume around 30-80 kWh per day. The real problem with
| flywheels is scale and longevity. How many flywheels can you
| name that have been in service for 20 years? Lithium batteries
| have won the short duration energy storage race and most other
| solutions are for edge cases.
| andreamaxwell wrote:
| Fascinating read! Microgrids and solar energy hold immense
| potential for a sustainable future. Exciting to witness these
| advancements shaping our energy landscape.
| hinkley wrote:
| This story of decentralization has played out before. The hazard
| is that private grid infrastructure becomes affordable by the
| upper class, they stop soliciting politicians to maintain
| infrastructure. Once the middle class can afford it, then the
| votes evaporate, and the lower class is absolutely fucked. A half
| rotten water supply or electric grid becomes fully rotten every
| time there's stress on the system.
|
| Phasing out natural gas in new construction is going to cause
| this passion play in slow motion. Have you priced out induction
| stoves? Phew.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| > the lower class is absolutely fucked
|
| Is it ironic that the technology is being developed and tested
| in poor neighborhoods? [0]
|
| > Honghao Zheng, an analytics manager for Chicago's electric
| company, ComEd, described the microgrid as the seed of
| something bigger. Moving from a centralized energy model to a
| decentralized one is the goal, he said.
|
| > Zheng said what's novel about the Bronzeville project is that
| this grid, unlike others, is not a "one-way street" of power --
| it's designed to be able to "cluster" with other microgrids,
| such as the one at the nearby Illinois Institute of Technology.
| Later this year ComEd plans to test the grids' "island"
| function, meaning its ability to disconnect from the larger
| grid.
|
| > "This is only a starting point," Zheng said. "We are also
| thinking about how to expand this kind of innovative
| technology."
|
| A microgrid as it's known right now disconnects itself into an
| island that provides power for everything inside of it when the
| larger grid goes down. But what they're building now is a
| cluster of microgrids such that one microgrid can send its
| excess power to neighboring microgrids so they all have power.
| If this all works out then the rich folks aren't simply
| isolating themselves, they are also providing resiliency to
| their less-fortunate neighbors.
|
| [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/chicago-bronzeville-
| neighbor...
| bratgpttamer wrote:
| Until someone introduces a bidding mechanism, anyway.
|
| "Man, we had no power for DAYS and I only got $14.75 from
| that stupid electric grid thing"
| eldaisfish wrote:
| This is needlessly dramatic and negative.
|
| The electric grid is what it is today because several problems
| can only be addressed at scale. There is no way that
| individuals will accept all the reliability, maintenance and
| risk that comes with running their own electrical
| infrastructure. More importantly, location is a very important
| metric here.
|
| I always feel that comments on solar or renewable energy on
| this site come from a California-centric perspective. In almost
| all regions of the planet, power generation at scale provides
| security, resilience, stability, reliability and other metrics
| that are always superior to smaller, individual power
| generation sources.
| burkaman wrote:
| > Phasing out natural gas in new construction is going to cause
| this passion play in slow motion. Have you priced out induction
| stoves? Phew.
|
| More than two thirds of US households already have electric
| stoves, and normal non-induction electric stoves are about the
| same price as gas ones. A ban on gas stoves would only affect
| rich people for the most part.
| terribleperson wrote:
| When it comes to cooking, non-induction electric stoves are a
| downgrade from gas stoves, even if they're the same price.
| Induction stoves are at least an upgrade in some respects,
| but a downgrade in terms of cookware compatibility. Phasing
| out gas stoves might be the future, but I wouldn't describe
| it as something that only affects rich people.
| NegativeLatency wrote:
| If they're so bad, then why do so many people have them,
| and seem to be able to cook good food on them?
|
| I appreciate that there are better stoves out there that
| might make certain things easier but the stove is not the
| thing that's holding back my cooking.
| burkaman wrote:
| I disagree. For all common tasks (and most uncommon tasks)
| that Americans do with a stove, non-induction electric
| stoves are as good or better than gas.
| nelsondev wrote:
| I've cooked on both and prefer gas. For pots with
| curvature (woks), induction doesn't work well. Induction
| is nice for boiling water/soups, but frying is better
| with gas. Gas is also more user friendly as a broiler in
| the oven for toasting than a slow to heat electric
| element.
| burkaman wrote:
| I agree there are a couple niche cases like woks, but
| very few Americans ever use them, and if you do there are
| easy workarounds like electric woks. Electric ovens are
| typically better for broiling
| (https://www.consumerreports.org/appliances/ranges/gas-
| or-ele..., https://www.consumerreports.org/ranges/how-to-
| get-the-most-f...). Why do you think frying is better
| with gas?
|
| Obviously some good gas stoves will still be better than
| bad electric ones, so I'm not discounting your individual
| experience, but I don't think your experience generalizes
| well.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| gas is also incredibly wasteful. the efficiency of a
| resistive element stove is in the 80-90% range while for
| gas, it is in the 20s if you are lucky. most of the heat
| in a gas stove is lost to the environment.
|
| The "better" you report is just perception. there is zero
| evidence or measurements to back that up.
| fghorow wrote:
| Errr, assuming that your electricity comes from a
| combustion source and a simple cycle power plant, at
| _best_ the work derived from the heat is about 35%. You
| need to account for that in your 80-90% calculation.
| (That is, .9 * .35 = .315 using the upper range of your
| guesstimate.)
|
| In other words, the waste heat has already been lost to
| the environment at the power generation source in that
| case.
|
| As always "it depends"... (In this case on the power
| generation mix in your local grid)
| 0xffff2 wrote:
| This is total nonsense. I used to believe it as someone who
| only grew up with gas. Now, I've worked as a professional
| cook and lived in a variety of places with a variety of
| electric stoves at different price points. Electric is
| absolutely just as good as gas if you are a competent cook.
| It makes no difference whatsoever what the source of heat
| is on my stove anymore.
| MetaWhirledPeas wrote:
| As a non-chef this has always been my suspicion, so I'll
| happily support you. I'm sure the immediacy of the
| temperature change matters to a degree (zing!) but how
| hard is it to wait a few seconds?
| terribleperson wrote:
| I have no professional experience, but I've used gas,
| coil top, glass top induction, and glass top non-
| induction. Of those four types induction is by far my
| favorite, but having to replace half of our pots and pans
| was annoying.
|
| I would not be surprised if professional electric stoves
| are better, but the consumer experience is lacking. Coil
| top stoves often heat unevenly. The non-induction glass
| top experience is overall not great, with them seemingly
| being a downgrade from coil tops in all aspects other
| than cleaning and aesthetics.
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| > A ban on gas stoves would only affect rich people for the
| most part.
|
| And professional kitchens.
|
| For the record I agree with phasing them out but I can see
| restaurant chefs fighting hard against it.
| burkaman wrote:
| Sure, but all actual bans in the US so far have made
| exceptions for commercial kitchens.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Mostly the old guard who doesn't want to adapt to induction
| ovens and Doner Kebab shops where there really is no
| replacement for a proper gas grill.
|
| At least here in Europe, many restaurants are switching
| because the writing is on the wall that natural gas will
| get very expensive very soon.
| cbluth wrote:
| So soon it that became expensive since the last year or
| so
| bluGill wrote:
| Indication stoves are claimed to be as good as gas. However
| the cheapest induction stove in the US is 3x the price of the
| cheapest gas or electric. And if you go stove shopping you
| with find lots of options for gas or regular electric, but
| often only one induction model - if you want some combination
| of features and are willing to pay - you often still can't
| get it with induction. (dual ovens, number of burners, burner
| configuration, non-standard widths - there are lots of
| options that are at least interesting to someone who is
| cooking)
| burkaman wrote:
| I claim that ordinary electric coil stoves are as good as
| gas for nearly every non-commercial use case, and the
| moderate popularity of gas stoves was almost entirely
| manufactured by the gas industry. I understand that some
| things are harder, like using a wok, but there are easy
| workarounds, and most Americans never try to do these
| things anyway.
|
| Electric stoves are also strictly better at a lot of things
| - very high heat, very low heat, cleaning, repairing, not
| polluting the air, etc.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| And then the step up to induction is even more so a no
| brainer. That way, just the benefits of gas (fast hot,
| fast cool) are added on top of electric. Without the
| cleaning hassles.
| mrDmrTmrJ wrote:
| Respectfully - all of these "issues" get solved when you go
| from ~1%->100% market share.
|
| 100x increases in manufacturing volumes will do amazing
| things for final cost. Expanded market share to 100% will
| lead to every features imaginable being offered to the
| market.
|
| Ending gas stoves, and gas distribution in general, is a
| huge win. Just as phasing out incandescent light bulbs was
| a huge win. Each "infrastructure grid" that we run to every
| building (Electricity, Water/Sewer, Roads, IT, natural gas)
| is overwhelmingly expensive to build and maintain. And if
| you don't maintain it - you blow up San Bruno[1]. It would
| be great to delete one!
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion
| bluGill wrote:
| The problem is we are not at a high market share (in the
| US), and it will be a while before they gain.
|
| I hate my current stove, but no way am I paying the cost
| for a new one. I also have vacations and other things I
| want. (As a programmer my income is well above average,
| so I have to assume the costs are only more prohibitive
| for most people)
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| Won't happen but a bit of communism would help. Government
| specs and purchases induction stoves and sends a trucks
| around and replaces all the crap electric stoves one
| neighborhood at a time. Basic idea better to just do it as
| a coordinated project than piecemeal.
|
| Other thought about decommissioning gas lines. When doing
| infrastructure projects that require digging moving gas
| utilities is a big big hassle and expense. Getting rid of
| natural gas lines would make that stuff easier.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| Induction stoves are really not expensive,fast and easier
| to clean. Also the pans are easier to clean (less chance of
| burnt grease inside and outside). The shift from gas to
| electric is a tiny step compared to combustion to EV. I
| guess it is more a hard-to-shift cultural thing?
| maliker wrote:
| When solar was becoming affordable, there was a lot of talk in
| the industry about "grid defection" exactly as you describe,
| but it didn't come to pass.
|
| Now that energy storage is getting radically cheaper too, I
| think there's a decent chance that what you predict could
| happen. It would be... enormously bad.
|
| And I agree load growth plays a part in all this. The big
| growth will come from electric vehicles--once cars are all
| electric, that will roughly double the electricity demand.
| hadlock wrote:
| Roofs generally last for 30 years. In my neighborhood at
| least, which was all built-out in a 3 year period in the
| mid-1970s, most of the roofs were replaced about 10-15 years
| ago (they're rated for 30 years, but everyone pushes their
| luck as far as possible). Because they replaced their roof
| pre-~2014 it wasn't cheap or common to do so and thus very
| little solar was installed at that point.
|
| Those who have had their roof replaced in the last 5-7 years
| went ahead and put solar on top. My guess would be that when
| the neighborhood "cycles" through new roofs again in ~15
| years, more than half will elect to put in solar or
| solar/battery combo. We are due for a new roof in 2-3 years
| and plan on doing solar at that time, and possibly even
| battery.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| The 2022 Inflation Reduction Act has provisions where low-
| income households can get an electric or electric induction
| stove fully reimbursed, up to $840. Middle-income households
| can get half the price of the stove reimbursed.
|
| Apparently, individual states have to do stuff, so it might be
| like the medicaid expansions where some states opt out of
| providing stuff for poor people to make a political point.
| thegaulofthem wrote:
| > opt out of providing stuff for poor people to make a
| political point.
|
| I would certainly hope my state isn't giving out tax-payer
| funded luxury stoves.
|
| There is no such thing as "free" here.
| arcticbull wrote:
| My Bosch 36" mid-range induction cook top was about $2500.
| High-end ones are like $4000-8000 or even more. So nobody's
| getting a luxury anything for $850.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| I really do not get this. We have twice a 300 euros AEG
| in two kitchens already running 10 years. How many pits
| do you cook on simultaneously?
| mcpackieh wrote:
| One for simmering sauce, one for boiling pasta, and a
| third for frying up some sausage, veggies, etc. Three at
| a time isn't unreasonable if you know how long everything
| takes and do it in parallel to all finish at the same
| time.
| arcticbull wrote:
| Mine has 2 round elements and one rectangular flex
| element. Generally 1-2.
| arcticbull wrote:
| Off-topic but I just don't get why we means-test this. So
| what if 1% of Americans get $840 so long as the other 99%
| also get $840 towards a new stove. Surely the cost of means
| testing and administration is more than 1%?
| delecti wrote:
| I think you're totally correct. Unfortunately, lots of
| people have trouble thinking rationally about people
| getting things they don't deserve (for whatever definition
| of "deserve").
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| This is what happens when general public service infrastructure
| becomes so bloated and ineffectual that even at huge scale it
| can not compete with small scale alternatives.
|
| At some point it becomes more efficient to put in a natural
| gas/water/electric storage in your back yard than pay for
| public service delivery.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > Phasing out natural gas in new construction is going to cause
| this passion play in slow motion. Have you priced out induction
| stoves? Phew.
|
| Two things here. For one, natural gas _has_ to be removed from
| the market as the supply of gas is finite, it 's bound to raise
| in price anyway due to CO2 taxes, it emits toxic particulates
| associated with lung disease, it's more efficient to run a heat
| pump than burn any kind of fossil fuel, and it's a major
| fire/explosion hazard particularly when maintenance is
| neglected.
|
| The other side is, if you're worried about electricity going
| down, you can always grab a gas cylinder for a camping stove
| and live off of that for a week and more - personally, I have
| an Enders Explorer portable grill that can double as a stove
| and two 5kg cylinders of gas, mostly to run outdoor BBQs but
| also usable in case of a prolonged grid outage.
| tick_tock_tick wrote:
| > natural gas has to be removed from the market as the supply
| of gas is finite
|
| I'd drop this argument your other points are good but while
| gas might technically be finite it's not on any timescale
| that matters here.
| hinkley wrote:
| It's also, head and shoulders above all other fossil fuels,
| highly amenable to being synthetically produced using
| renewable resources.
| bluGill wrote:
| If you worry about electricity going down you can buy a
| portable generator powerful enough to run at least some of
| the stove. Odds are you have never had your electric stove
| using the full power it can in theory consume (all burners on
| high and the oven heating), so long as your actual use is
| less than the stove needs this works.
|
| Heat pumps are great, but it sometimes gets cold enough where
| I live that they are less efficient than a modern gas
| furnace. (not every year, but still often enough that I need
| to plan on those days or my pipes will freeze)
| hinkley wrote:
| Induction stoves want a 220V 40A service.
| bluGill wrote:
| Then want 220V, but the amp depends on how much you are
| using. One burner on low will use less power than all
| burners and the oven all on high.
| franl wrote:
| What are some examples of this type of decentralization
| scenario playing out before? What you're saying makes sense to
| me, but my hope would be that the decentralization would serve
| more as a supplement than a replacement - therefore still
| requiring ongoing maintenance and investment to main infra. The
| alternative without these microgrids and other microinfra is
| almost guaranteed to result in the half or fully rotten systems
| you predict as the prevailing recent political climate doesn't
| give much confidence in terms of getting such massive projects
| planned and completed successfully (US-centric response).
| polygamous_bat wrote:
| > What are some examples of this type of decentralization
| scenario playing out before?
|
| I am not very knowledgeable about this, but the
| public/private school debate seems to be one possibility.
| black_13 wrote:
| [dead]
| haspoken wrote:
| https://archive.is/jrCMZ
| electrondood wrote:
| Tesla's Powerwall + Virtual Power Plant software allow
| individuals to profit from arbitraging electricity prices while
| doubling as a distributed energy grid. Combine that with
| Megapacks (buffer battery arrays for municipalities) and you've
| got a distributed energy grid that absorbs load effectively, and
| makes money for its participants..
| usefulcat wrote:
| To give some idea of the arbitrage potential, in Texas right
| now the price is usually $20-$30 / MWh for much of each day,
| but rises into the hundreds or even low thousands during times
| of peak demand, usually for 4-6 hours each day. This pattern is
| very common during the hottest ~4 months of the year.
|
| https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards/systemwideprice...
| mikeyouse wrote:
| My friend lives in a small neighborhood north of SF in Marin
| County, but down a small road that frequently washes out. They
| were constantly losing power and would be down for days if not
| longer during big storms that drop a lot of limbs and wash the
| road out. Rather than deal with the urgency of restoring power
| to them and all that entailed, PG&E just installed a Powerwall
| in every house. Many of the houses already had solar so now
| when the main power line is cut, they can go for days/weeks and
| live relatively normally. Batteries are going to make a lot of
| things much easier.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| And in a sane world, few would have a physical internet
| connection unless you're really pushing serious data (which
| probably doesn't need to be from home anyway).
|
| I've toyed with shutting my router and modem at night on a
| timer because it's a waste of 15-20w of electricity for
| nothing.
| gruez wrote:
| Your cellphone's 4G connection might be fast enough to
| handle a 4K stream, but there isn't enough RF spectrum to
| handle 500 devices in the same block trying to stream 4K.
| That's why you still need physical internet connections.
| fragmede wrote:
| That is the promise of 5G though. You personally won't
| notice any difference but it should support more people
| in the same area in the same limited spectrum.
| chankstein38 wrote:
| Plus cell connections and tethering are usually data
| capped. I don't know where the parent is coming from but
| within the last few months I got gigabit fiber installed
| and I'll do anything I can to never lose these speeds.
| themitigating wrote:
| There could become a point where technology has advanced
| so far that cell tech is all there is. Imagine everything
| was just wireless and the internet penertrated everywhere
| jjoonathan wrote:
| With enough beamforming there's spectrum.
|
| If I option-click the wifi icon on my laptop, it says
| "NSS 2" -- that is, the Number of Spatial Streams is 2.
| My laptop and router have identified two different
| spatial paths between them and are using their multiple
| antennae to send different data down the different
| paths.. NSS=2 is the limit for my router because it only
| has 2 antenna, but those routers with a ring of antennae
| that look like they were designed by the Dark Lord Sauron
| to top a tower in Mordor can fire correspondingly more
| simultaneous spatial streams. Cell towers with antenna
| arrays can do even better.
|
| There is plenty of spectrum, just not for old single-
| antenna tech.
| mnw21cam wrote:
| It is likely that your broadband provider will look at the
| fact that your router is often "losing connection" and
| infer that your cabling is dodgy, then reduce your
| connection speed to try to "help". Also, 15-20W is a little
| high - my modem uses 3.9W.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Cell providers seem to advertise ridiculously high
| bandwidth numbers (far beyond what a home user might need),
| but don't say much about latency. If I want to edit code
| over ssh or play an online video game, I care more about
| the latter, and those things don't seem like non-sane
| things to do, to me.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Indeed, one thing I disliked it that Canadian incumbent
| providers used to (and maybe continue to) refuse to peer
| freely at IXs. So my closest POP (by their shit routing)
| for my VoIP provider was in US while on mobile vs my
| independent home ISP could use the local POP.
| giantg2 wrote:
| 20w idle is insane. Probably save more in the long run if
| you just get a more efficient router so it's not using so
| much juice during the times you have it on too.
|
| I turn off my wifi off at night. This saves some energy and
| still allows me me to connect physically if I need to for
| work or whatever.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| I can't choose my ISP's modem. And I don't think they
| care about my electric bill. I do disable their wifi and
| run my own wifi/router.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Interesting. I own my modem. I guess that's not an option
| everywhere. Plus, options for modems are more limited
| than options for routers (or so it seemed a few years
| ago).
| belthesar wrote:
| It may sound insane, but for folks that are operating
| gigabit or multi-gigabit fiber connections (certainly not
| the standard, but definitely becoming more available),
| the amount of CPU needed to route at gigabit+ speed, the
| switch chips that need juice, the WiFi radios that have
| 4+ antennae all needing amplification having a baseline
| power requirement, there's a surprising amount of juice
| required. If you're running one of those combo cable
| "modem" + router + WiFi access point jobbies, that's even
| more radios that need juice.
|
| I didn't start getting a reasonable understanding until I
| started watching ServeTheHome videos, where they usually
| toss each device on some sort of Kill-a-Watt style meter,
| and then start putting the device under load to see how
| it changes.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Idle, though?
| Scoundreller wrote:
| The beast my ISP sends out says 5w power save (when does
| that activate when something is always connected?), 18w
| typical and 36w max (probably with usb devices plugged
| in).
|
| https://www.192-168-0-1login.org/datasheet_6208_coda-4582
| .pd...
| jeffbee wrote:
| In rural Marin County wireless internet service is very
| widespread. I see Ubiquiti equipment on most roofs, and
| these days some Starlink as well.
| exabrial wrote:
| That is a _lot_ of acreage for solar. What I'm curious about
| though is what do we do when the solar panels degrade? We haven't
| solved that problem yet as far as I know; we're looking at up to
| 1/4 less energy output in 25 years (give or take, results may
| very, blah blah pedantic the usual fine print here)
| jksmith wrote:
| I pitched an energy arbitrage system back in 2005, but it was
| just too far in front of the available technology. The idea was
| to build small grid co-ops, where endpoints could buy/sell
| computing power, even just electricity based on demand.
| Batteries, even idle smart-washing machines and IOT stuff
| endpoints could provide energy and cycles for whatever.
|
| The tech is becoming possible now, but expect utility companies
| to launch a threatening offensive against people to stop the de-
| centralization movement from happening. Nicholas Carr's "The Big
| Switch" in reverse.
| 93po wrote:
| There are at least a couple companies doing something similar
| to this right now
| maliker wrote:
| The first microgrid they discuss was built by a local not-for-
| profit electric cooperative. It's a nice example of how there can
| be benefits to the grid as well as the consumers served by the
| microgrid. There are not a lot of details out there on the grid
| benefits, but I suspect a decent one would be moving load off of
| peak demand times.
| K0balt wrote:
| My off grid community runs a micro grid for the residents and
| projects here. Our all solar micro grid runs a coffee plantation,
| 7 cabins, 5 houses, a gym, a dojo, a lounge/kitchen/dining hall,
| water production, purification, and distribution, a small school,
| and several apartments and workshops.
|
| It's totally feasible for many areas and power is comparably
| priced or cheaper than the local utility while being much more
| reliable.
| jwr wrote:
| This content is not on the internet. Can I also submit links to
| any local site that requires a subscription in order to view the
| article? Or does this specific site get an exception?
| krastanov wrote:
| Yes, you can submit any local site with a paywall. For what is
| worth, it is part of the "community guidelines" for HN to not
| complain about paywalls (see
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html ). Someone will
| probably post a pirated archive link shortly (edit: they
| already have).
| hinkley wrote:
| Part of the community guidelines that we aren't allowed to
| discuss is censorship.
|
| I get that we don't want to spiral on discussing things, but
| can't discuss them at all is draconian.
| striking wrote:
| The mod team have made themselves clear.[1][2] I'm not sure
| what more there is to say, you're not going to "discuss"
| 'dang into submission.
|
| 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989
|
| 2: https://hn.algolia.com/?query=paywalls%20by:dang&dateRan
| ge=a...
| hinkley wrote:
| [1] was eight years ago. I'm not sure that's how
| decisions work. But if anything more stuff is paywalled
| now I suspect I know how that would go.
| basch wrote:
| Does your local library provide access to the new york
| times?
|
| I'm not sure a private company paying money to produce a
| story for paying customers quite qualifies as "censorship."
| bee_rider wrote:
| I'm perpetually surprised this otherwise mostly legit site is
| OK with us sharing links to pirated material.
| notpushkin wrote:
| > It's ok to post stories from sites with paywalls that have
| workarounds. In comments, it's ok to ask how to read an article
| and to help other users do so.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
| barbazoo wrote:
| Then why not post the workaround in the first place I wonder.
|
| Alternatively an ignorelist of domains would be nice.
| peoplearepeople wrote:
| https://txtify.it/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/07/realest...
| elicash wrote:
| There is also networked geothermal
|
| https://heet.org/geo/
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