[HN Gopher] A Critical Problem (2017)
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       A Critical Problem (2017)
        
       Author : samwillis
       Score  : 240 points
       Date   : 2023-08-09 06:55 UTC (16 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (nucleardiner.wordpress.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (nucleardiner.wordpress.com)
        
       | wqqwdfsaadd wrote:
       | [dead]
        
       | AdamH12113 wrote:
       | The title needs a (2017) since it discusses then-recent history.
        
         | defrost wrote:
         | That history being the release of this report?
         | 
         |  _Nuclear Negligence_ (June 26, 2017)
         | 
         | https://apps.publicintegrity.org/nuclear-negligence/
         | In the summer of 2011, Los Alamos National Laboratory presented
         | a happy self-portrait to the public.               But that
         | year something alarming happened at Los Alamos that the lab
         | kept quiet.  A pair of workers with cavalier attitudes nearly
         | doomed a room full of colleagues by stuffing so much plutonium
         | into a small space that they came close to triggering an
         | accidental nuclear chain reaction, all to get some photos.
         | 
         | https://apps.publicintegrity.org/nuclear-negligence/about-th...
        
       | doingtheiroming wrote:
       | It's worth reading about refineries and chemical plants. We've
       | all heard of Bhopal and other disasters but it's worth bearing in
       | mind just how few disasters happen in these fearsomely complex
       | and dangerous plants. Almost all are managed successfully by the
       | private sector.
       | 
       | There was an interview with Jim Radcliffe recently in which he
       | described Ineos' approach to safety. It's a variation on what's
       | described my Steven J. Spears in his case study of Alcoa. The
       | truth is that the private sector has innovated much of what's
       | best in modern safety practice in a way that has made
       | monumentally dangerous industrial processes routine.
       | 
       | There are perhaps good reasons to keep nuclear weapons management
       | in the public sector. Canards about the safety record of the
       | private sector are not though.
        
         | vanderZwan wrote:
         | > _Almost all are managed successfully by the private sector._
         | 
         | Yes, because of a mix government regulations forcing them to
         | not cut too many corners for the sake of saving expenses, and
         | people like the author of the article pushing back against
         | higher-ups who try to do so anyway.
         | 
         | Let's not pretend that workers didn't die needlessly in factory
         | fires a century ago because the factory owners locked the
         | doors.
        
           | jiggawatts wrote:
           | It's not just government regulations. It's also a functioning
           | judiciary and legal system where individuals can sue
           | corporations and win.
           | 
           | As a random example where a non-functioning judiciary
           | resulted in a catastrophe, take a look at the 2020 Beirut
           | port explosion, which a lot of people saw coming a mile off,
           | but were unable to do anything about because of inept and
           | corrupt judges that couldn't make a decision.
        
             | pixl97 wrote:
             | I would say under technically, this is government
             | regulation.
        
           | dmbche wrote:
           | The Bends were discovered when mysteriously, during the
           | construction of the Brooklyn bridge, the underwater welders
           | kept dying when coming out of the water.
           | 
           | After scientists found what happened and saturation diving
           | was theorised - companies kept their protocols of not
           | decompressing when coming back, and kept killing their
           | divers.
        
         | Loic wrote:
         | For the chemical plants and refineries, I _really_ recommend
         | looking at the videos of the CSB[0]. They are doing postmortem
         | analysis of all the majors incidents in the US. They are
         | extremely well done.
         | 
         | [0]: https://www.csb.gov/ U.S. Chemical Safety Board
        
           | Titan2189 wrote:
           | Agreed, I've been subscribed for years
           | 
           | https://www.youtube.com/@USCSB
        
           | dmbche wrote:
           | You made me realise that Canada does not seem to have
           | something similar - we just have a transportation safety
           | bureau that handles trains, pipelines and the likes. And the
           | Titan thing that happened a few weeks back.
           | 
           | I'm a little worried.
        
         | superchroma wrote:
         | Seeing as we still see tiktoks of mud-covered men manually
         | assembling or dissembling drilling equipment with no PPE,
         | (intended to goad women about how the genders are unequal), I
         | think additional government scrutiny can't hurt in this space.
        
         | hgomersall wrote:
         | It's a shame they don't apply the same concern for safety to
         | their externalities.
        
         | sergioisidoro wrote:
         | I mean, there are incidents in refineries and plants. It's just
         | hard to know how common they are because many go unreported or
         | just don't reach wide public knowledge.
         | 
         | Eg. Y12 criticality incident - https://youtu.be/HaOc8FhMdWc
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | mock-possum wrote:
       | My fun little factoid about criticality is: sometimes it just
       | happens naturally, on earth.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reacto...
       | 
       | > The natural nuclear reactor formed when a uranium-rich mineral
       | deposit became inundated with groundwater, which could act as a
       | moderator for the neutrons produced by nuclear fission. A chain
       | reaction took place, producing heat that caused the groundwater
       | to boil away; without a moderator that could slow the neutrons,
       | however, the reaction slowed or stopped. The reactor thus had a
       | negative void coefficient of reactivity, something employed as a
       | safety mechanism in human-made light water reactors.
       | 
       | > After cooling of the mineral deposit, the water returned, and
       | the reaction restarted, completing a full cycle every 3 hours.
       | The fission reaction cycles continued for hundreds of thousands
       | of years and ended when the ever-decreasing fissile materials,
       | coupled with the build-up of neutron poisons, no longer could
       | sustain a chain reaction.
       | 
       | What a wild story!
        
         | defrost wrote:
         | It was a different time then                   approximately
         | 1.7 billion years ago, during the Statherian period of the
         | Paleoproterozoic, and continued for a few hundred thousand
         | years, probably averaging less than 100 kW of thermal power
         | during that time.
        
           | danparsonson wrote:
           | At least we now know how early life kept their devices
           | charged.
        
         | Terr_ wrote:
         | Interestingly, the -oid suffix usually refers to things that
         | only _resemble_ the thing, so an andr-oid is not really a man,
         | a meteor-oid is not really a meteor, and fact-oid... might not
         | really be a fact.
         | 
         | However the _really_ amusing bit is that that everybody can
         | agree--for different reasons--that:
         | 
         | > Here is a factoid: A factoid is a small fact.
        
           | JadeNB wrote:
           | Similarly, 'factitious' sounds like it should be an antonym
           | to 'fictitious', but it very much isn't. And 'factious' is
           | another thing entirely.
        
           | danielbln wrote:
           | The correct word would be a factlet, but factoid has been
           | defacto taken its place. The fluidity of language, I suppose.
        
             | anyoneamous wrote:
             | But is the collective noun for fully-grown factlets "facti"
             | or "factodes"?
        
               | selimthegrim wrote:
               | The octolets will get back to you.
        
             | Terr_ wrote:
             | I wonder if anyone's done studies to measure and quantify
             | the "distance" of slang (in years or generations) before an
             | older person feels instinctive linguistic revulsion...
        
               | marcosdumay wrote:
               | It's a continuous value, that is visibly different from
               | zero almost immediately; children will experience it in a
               | few contexts.
        
           | cafard wrote:
           | My recollection from many years ago is that Norman Mailer
           | coined "factoid" to refer that what looked like facts, were
           | offered as facts, but weren't facts.
        
             | Linosaurus wrote:
             | Yes, both meanings exists in dictionaries.
             | 
             | Fortunately usage has consolidated. In my experience a
             | factoid is generally intended to be true in (American?)
             | English, but untrue in Swedish.
        
           | taneq wrote:
           | The letter u is a void. ;)
        
           | adrian_b wrote:
           | Yes, the -oid suffix is cognate with words like video and
           | vision, referring to sight, so X-oid means something that
           | looks like X.
        
             | selimthegrim wrote:
             | Schizoid?
        
               | HPsquared wrote:
               | "Resembling schizophrenia but less severe"... seems to
               | fit.
        
       | hiccuphippo wrote:
       | The previous incidents the article mentions are about the aptly
       | named Demon Core.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core
        
       | rwmj wrote:
       | Reminds me of this Japanese incident: https://world-
       | nuclear.org/information-library/safety-and-sec...
        
       | networkchad wrote:
       | [dead]
        
       | jacquesm wrote:
       | That's a nice example of the prevention paradox at work. You do
       | your work well. Nothing happens for a while. You get laid off.
       | Then eventually something happens...
        
         | 2rsf wrote:
         | A senior software tester here, welcome to my life
        
           | el_oni wrote:
           | We hate you when the bug reports roll in, but appreciate you
           | when the product ships in a much cleaner state
        
             | jacquesm wrote:
             | > We hate you when the bug reports roll in
             | 
             | Nothing has changed since the times of Plutarch.
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_the_messenger
        
         | mnw21cam wrote:
         | If ever there was the need for Chesterton's Fence, this is it.
        
           | jacquesm wrote:
           | It looks like amount wise they got lucky. I wonder how they
           | were transported for that photograph. And whether or not the
           | person that made it knew how far away from something really
           | bad they were. _That_ gives me the creeps.
        
       | casey2 wrote:
       | To put this in perspective 22.54 per 100,000 would die due to
       | motor vehicles in the same year that Slotin died. The average car
       | (especially on US roads) is much more deadly and can become
       | deadly in a blink, much faster than plutonium.
       | 
       | How many people died of not just plutonium, but all criticality
       | events? Less than 22, total (most of those Soviet). There is
       | little reason to believe that even if these were household
       | materials that they would be more dangerous than cars in the USA.
        
         | DeathArrow wrote:
         | > To put this in perspective 22.54 per 100,000 would die due to
         | motor vehicles in the same year that Slotin died.
         | 
         | This is an incorrect perspective. If the same number of people
         | as those driving cars had been playing with enriched uranium or
         | plutonium, the casualties would have been much worse.
        
         | n4r9 wrote:
         | You're comparing a small number of objects handled by expert
         | technicians in highly controlled environments against a large
         | number of objects driven by average people in much more chaotic
         | environments.
        
         | cycomanic wrote:
         | By the same logic, many more kids have died of chocking on toys
         | than of radiation poisoning by plutonium, so we really should
         | give kids plutonium to play instead of toys.
         | 
         | Did you not realise how ridiculous your comparison was?
        
         | ndsipa_pomu wrote:
         | Whilst I agree with your conclusion that cars are involved in
         | more loss of life, I don't think it's fair to only look at
         | criticality events and ignore other radiation based deaths.
         | Also, it's the drivers, not the cars that cause the danger.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_civilian_radiation_acc...
        
           | denton-scratch wrote:
           | > it's the drivers, not the cars that cause the danger
           | 
           | "People kill people, not guns".
           | 
           | You can kill me by throwing a person at me at 30mph; but it's
           | easier to kill me by throwing a ton of iron at me at 30mph.
           | 
           | If you're right, then there are no driving accidents, and all
           | injuries result from negligence or incompetence. In fact, the
           | driving environment is so complex and chaotic that accidents
           | are inevitable, even for the competent and attentive.
        
             | pixl97 wrote:
             | Numerous "self driving" cars have been in crashes. I
             | believe under defined law it could be considered industrial
             | accident when that occurs but is still open for litigation
             | and definition.
        
             | ndsipa_pomu wrote:
             | It's recommended to not call them "accidents" anymore as
             | that implies a completely unpreventable incident which
             | carries no blame. Road Traffic Incidents or Road Traffic
             | Collisions are the preferred neutral terms.
             | 
             | The vast majority of RTCs are indeed due to the inattention
             | of a driver or not looking sufficiently (e.g. not taking
             | care to move your head so that the A-pillar does not
             | obstruct your view of pedestrians/cyclists etc).
             | 
             | I would consider accidental RTCs to be mainly due to either
             | mechanical failures (which could be argued is due to lack
             | of maintenance) or previously unknown medical issues.
             | 
             | It's interesting the difference in use of language between
             | RTCs and shooting incidents. News reports will often make
             | no mention of the driver and will make statements such as
             | "car hits a building", but to use the same style with
             | shootings would be risible e.g. "multiple bullets hit man
             | resisting arrest". Of course, the car industry has been
             | exerting control over media reporting of RTCs for about a
             | century now, so it's very ingrained.
        
               | cratermoon wrote:
               | > to use the same style with shootings would be risible
               | e.g. "multiple bullets hit man resisting arrest".
               | 
               | Except that media use a different, equally bad
               | construction. The so-called "cop-speak".
               | <https://fair.org/home/copspeak-7-ways-journalists-use-
               | police...>
        
               | denton-scratch wrote:
               | > It's recommended to not call them "accidents" anymore
               | 
               | Perhaps I've misread you; you seem to be asserting what I
               | said you were - that there are no accidents.
               | 
               | Also, why the passive voice? Who makes this
               | recommendation?
               | 
               | [Edit]
               | 
               | > The vast majority of RTCs are indeed due to the
               | inattention of a driver
               | 
               | Arguably, _all_ RTCs are the result of inadequate
               | attention from someone or other. But attentive, well-
               | trained drivers have collisions too. Perhaps their
               | attention lapsed? They 're human - human attention
               | wanders, they're not focused 24/7 on the task, because
               | they're not machines.
               | 
               | Cars are all very well on roads that carry light traffic.
               | But not many roads are like that nowadays: most driving
               | environments are way too complicated for even an expert
               | to negotiate completely safely.
               | 
               | There are too many cars.
        
               | ndsipa_pomu wrote:
               | Well, it depends on exactly how you define accident. In
               | general, it would mean an unintended consequence, but
               | arguably, driving whilst drunk and hitting something may
               | be unintended, but not surprising - I wouldn't classify
               | that as an accident as it was preventable and a known
               | consequence of driving under the influence. If a careful
               | driver suddenly has a heart attack and loses control,
               | then I would classify that as an accident.
               | 
               | Reporting recommendations:
               | 
               | https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2021/05/17/its-
               | cras...
               | 
               | https://road.cc/content/news/media-guidelines-launched-
               | repor...
               | 
               | https://www.rc-rg.com/guidelines
        
               | ndsipa_pomu wrote:
               | > Arguably, all RTCs are the result of inadequate
               | attention from someone or other. But attentive, well-
               | trained drivers have collisions too. Perhaps their
               | attention lapsed? They're human - human attention
               | wanders, they're not focused 24/7 on the task, because
               | they're not machines.
               | 
               | I'd say most of them. It's possible to be driving along
               | with a clear road ahead and have a person or object
               | suddenly appear in front of you. I recall a case where a
               | child was riding a bike on the pavement (sidewalk in the
               | U.S.?) and for some reason lost control and fell into the
               | road. The driver had been adhering to the speed limits
               | and was paying attention but unfortunately was unable to
               | stop in time and the child ended up dying.
               | 
               | There's lots of edge cases with driving which is why
               | there's a bunch of recommendations regarding speed and
               | leaving space so that when something unexpected happens,
               | there's more chance for a careful driver to be able to
               | stop or avoid the incident.
               | 
               | And yes, I totally agree about too many cars.
        
               | denton-scratch wrote:
               | > on the pavement (sidewalk in the U.S.?)
               | 
               | Pedantically (i.e. according to the Highway Code) the
               | part reserved for pedestrians is the 'footway'; the part
               | for carriages ('things with wheels', roughly) is the
               | carriageway.
               | 
               | I suppose that between them they comprise the pavement.
               | 
               | I've taken to referring to them as carriageway and
               | footway; it's unambiguous, and it even makes sense if
               | you're shouting across the Great Pond.
        
         | willprice89 wrote:
         | A better comparison might be fatalities among NASCAR drivers
         | during races - i.e. professionals operating in a dangerous
         | environment using tools engineered for safety.
         | 
         | Google claims a total of 29 drivers have died during races, so
         | the number of deaths in comparable, but I don't know how the
         | total person-hours compare between NASCAR drivers and nuclear
         | materials handling worldwide.
        
         | speed_spread wrote:
         | The difference is that the Newtonian physics of driving a car
         | are mostly intuitive and that cars serve an obvious purpose
         | making the risk both understandable and acceptable.
         | 
         | Handling highly radioactive materials serves no obvious
         | immediate purpose and the dangers are very abstract until you
         | get it wrong.
        
           | pixl97 wrote:
           | I think the driving risks are common but not exactly obvious.
           | I've never hydroplaned when running.
        
         | IAmNotAFix wrote:
         | That's because there are more people who drive cars than people
         | who handle plutonium. A more sensible statistics would be the
         | number of death per hour of usage (which might still be in
         | favor of handling plutonium).
        
       | jacklin123 wrote:
       | [flagged]
        
       | Ginger-Pickles wrote:
       | Detailed article on this and other criticality incidents:
       | https://www.science.org/content/article/near-disaster-federa...
        
       | sriku wrote:
       | Deadly nightshade as in this?
       | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanum_nigrum
       | 
       | Is there a specific variety the author knows that's toxic? ...
       | Because this (manathakkali or "fragrant tomato") features in
       | South Indian cuisine and is rather yummy.
        
         | tleb_ wrote:
         | This Wikipedia page mentions the following, with a link to the
         | toxic plant that is probably described by the article author:
         | 
         | > Sometimes S. nigrum is confused for the more toxic deadly
         | nightshade (Atropa belladonna)
        
         | samwillis wrote:
         | Nope, this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropa_belladonna
         | 
         | > Atropa belladonna, commonly known as belladonna or _deadly
         | nightshade_ , is a toxic perennial herbaceous plant in the
         | nightshade family Solanaceae
         | 
         | > The foliage and berries are extremely toxic when ingested,
         | containing tropane alkaloids. These toxins include atropine,
         | scopolamine, and hyoscyamine, which cause delirium and
         | hallucinations
         | 
         | When I was a kid my Dad spotted it growing in my school
         | grounds...
        
       | meibo wrote:
       | I get this same feeling when looking at some of the code people
       | commit the day before a release.
        
         | belter wrote:
         | Probably pushed by some recently rotated manager or new CEO
         | dropped out of a recent acquisition...sometimes the code pushes
         | the system over critically, sometimes it's just a code broken
         | arrow event. Something to tell in the privacy of your next off
         | the record interview or in your biography...
        
         | The_Colonel wrote:
         | The solution to that problem is to release every day. I'm not
         | even kidding.
        
           | quickthrower2 wrote:
           | And release branches. Commit away to main all you like!
        
           | makapuf wrote:
           | Critical staging code amount. Like that.
        
         | fouc wrote:
         | Guess that doesn't apply to places with peer code reviews &
         | continuous integration and continuous delivery/deployment
         | (CI/CD).
        
           | avgcorrection wrote:
           | It doesn't for release but it does for merging things to the
           | main branch and seeing if it fails or not (cf. "not rocket
           | science"[1]).
           | 
           | [1] https://graydon.livejournal.com/186550.html
        
       | perryizgr8 wrote:
       | Why does one of the cylinders have childish scribbling over it?
        
         | Titan2189 wrote:
         | It's quite hard to write on / engrave into a cylinder
        
           | mjd wrote:
           | And the scribbling would have been done by someone wearing
           | heavy gloves, probably while the rod was in a glovebox.
        
         | fmajid wrote:
         | Scribing the rods probably releases plutonium particles, a
         | vicious carcinogen, as would more professional looking laser
         | engraving. A Sharpie would be safer.
        
         | fouc wrote:
         | Plutonium is 2.5X as dense as steel. Also it's normally kept in
         | a glove box so the workers are probably wearing thick gloves
         | when doing the engraving.
        
       | fastneutron wrote:
       | Nuclear criticality safety was one of my favorite courses back
       | during my nuclear engineering degree. The failure modes, like the
       | article mentions, can be incredibly non-intuitive. Swirling
       | vortices, firefighting foam, and even the mere presence of a
       | human body can lead to a fatal power excursion. A lot of complex
       | computational modeling and simulation goes into determining
       | safety limits for fissile systems, as well as a lot of sheer
       | imagination.
       | 
       | The most important thing I took away from that experience is the
       | concept of _engineered_ compliance. People will break
       | administrative rules and regulations all the time if they get int
       | the way of work, so you need to engineer the physical system to
       | account for that (e.g. flat or skinny geometry, or lots of
       | neutron absorbers). This can apply to any compliance activity
       | related to safety and security, so the lessons are universal.
       | 
       | Los Alamos published a good survey on various worldwide
       | criticality accidents (PDF):
       | https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML0037/ML003731912.pdf. Worth a read for
       | all the various ways things can go wrong.
        
         | killjoywashere wrote:
         | This is a good place to add to the reading list: strongly
         | recommend Command and Control as well, by Eric Schlosser:
         | https://www.amazon.com/Command-Control-Damascus-Accident-Ill...
        
         | jiggawatts wrote:
         | > People will break administrative rules and regulations all
         | the time if they get in the way of work
         | 
         | The example I like to use is that the more paperwork you
         | require for something like "obtain an internal use certificate
         | for API endpoints" then the _direct consequence_ will be less
         | encryption of internal API endpoints.
         | 
         | Note that I didn't say "there may be", or "I predict that". No.
         | It's a guaranteed consequence, like gradient descent making AIs
         | better at meeting loss function. Except that it's gradient
         | ascent, and you're making it steeper and expecting people to
         | climb harder instead of just going around your pointless
         | obstacle.
         | 
         | "More paperwork" -> "Less security"
         | 
         | "Less paperwork" -> "More security"
         | 
         | Choose.
        
           | formerly_proven wrote:
           | Another typical example is charging internal applications for
           | IDPs, guess what, people are just gonna use LDAP/AD directly,
           | at a not-so-small detriment to application and user security.
           | 
           | These are things where cost center accounting just plainly
           | hurts the company. (There are many cases where it works well
           | and aligns incentives).
        
           | pixl97 wrote:
           | That's why you monitor and block every non encrypted API as
           | quickly as possible.
        
             | jiggawatts wrote:
             | That's a career-limiting move in most places.
             | 
             | If actually enforced this way, then the next consequence is
             | that people will use a credit card to spin their service up
             | in some random cloud that you don't control and won't
             | break.
             | 
             | ... where all API endpoints are encrypted _by default_ with
             | zero paperwork required.
             | 
             | Get it? Forcing people to climb steeper slopes never ever
             | works.
             | 
             | You need to make sure they fall into the pit of success
             | even if they're stumbling around in the dark with their
             | eyes closed.
        
           | hilbert42 wrote:
           | _" More paperwork" -> "Less security"
           | 
           | "Less paperwork" -> "More security"_
           | 
           | That's almost an axiom in some circumstances but with
           | criticality accidents there's a difference--first, the stakes
           | don't get much higher, at close quarters death's a certainty
           | and it's about as unpleasant as it gets; second, it's all
           | over and irreversible in milliseconds.
           | 
           | There is no time to think, the body-brain reaction time is
           | far too slow to take corrective action no matter how
           | effective it may be when deployed.
           | 
           | That's different to giving consideration to a course of
           | action based on the difficulty of obstacles in one's way--
           | choosing the path of least resistance, etc.
           | 
           | The issues with that infamous photo are different, there was
           | no obvious _logical if_ decision to be made--it was all very
           | straightforward, lay the Pu out and photograph it. The
           | problems, however, are multifold: (a) those involved didn 't
           | have sufficient understanding of the possible consequences
           | (of the physics involved), (b) they were poorly trained in
           | safety procedures, and (c), the work environment wasn't
           | 'engineered' to ensure compliance--that is, nothing stopped
           | them from doing it.
           | 
           | As I pointed out in my earlier post, training is crucial and
           | it cannot be just theoretical. When the stakes are this high
           | training has to be ingrained to such a degree that certain
           | procedures are automatic, similarly, dangerous situations
           | don't just become obvious after thinking about them, they are
           | so the instant the brain responds. For instance, one
           | recognizes the danger as quickly as one would if one tripped
           | over a snake.
           | 
           | That's what the military does with training, one
           | automatically reacts to a situation with the correct response
           | without thinking. And that takes practice until one's
           | perfect.
           | 
           | It works, it's a damn long time since I did any military
           | training and I can stil carry out certain actions and
           | procedures I learned decades ago and do so automatically and
           | without a moment's thought. The people who set up and took
           | those photos should have been trained to a similar level of
           | discipline.
        
           | AnimalMuppet wrote:
           | Same thing with problem reports and maintenance requests. The
           | more work you make them, the more people will put up with
           | things that kind of halfway work. That's bad for the
           | productivity of the organization as a whole, though, no
           | matter whether the more cumbersome process makes things more
           | convenient for IT or management or auditors.
        
       | hilbert42 wrote:
       | It should not have been possible for that photo to have been
       | taken anytime or anywhere since 1946, even during Manhattan with
       | war deadlines it should not have been possible. That it was and
       | as late as 2011 is of grave concern. Frankly, I find it very
       | difficult to fathom.
       | 
       | Years ago when I approached my first reading of the full accounts
       | of Slotin and Daghlian I did so as with any other info, since
       | then I have forced myself to reread them several times as a
       | reminder--as both the accounts and photos are grim. They ought to
       | be part of compulsory safety training for anyone vaguely
       | associated with the nuclear game.
       | 
       | Perhaps, as part of that training there should be more acting out
       | roles with dummy materials similar to military exercises where
       | adjudicators tag one as dead for making a 'lethal' mistake and
       | can play no further role in the exercise. This may seem trite but
       | it's not, being forced to play dead on the battlefield whilst the
       | exercise continues because of one's incompetence is both
       | formative and embarrassing (I speak from experience).
       | 
       | Moreover, like military training, the exercises should be
       | practiced until one's actions are automatic.
       | 
       | That said, such training ought to be a second-line defense--as
       | _fastneutron_ rightly points out--as such work environments ought
       | to be engineered to force compliance.
        
         | nerdponx wrote:
         | Is the problem that plutonium doesn't look particularly scary
         | on its own? It's just a chunk of gray metal. It's not fuming,
         | it's not warm (I assume), it's not glowing, it's not
         | particularly ugly, it's not a bright color. Very few people
         | have experienced radiation poisoning and have a visceral
         | understanding of the horror involved. None of our self-
         | preservation instincts understand the danger.
        
           | HPsquared wrote:
           | It's probably a bit like handling electric wiring. It doesn't
           | look dangerous, until you short the terminals together or
           | touch a high voltage contact.
        
             | SoftTalker wrote:
             | Or watch some YouTube videos about arc-flash.
        
             | hilbert42 wrote:
             | A pretty good analogy.
        
           | cyberax wrote:
           | Weapons grade plutonium is slightly warm to touch.
        
           | hilbert42 wrote:
           | Your question implies I've firsthand experience working with
           | the stuff but that isn't so. It's true I've worked in the
           | nuclear industry and keeping the stuff safe and out of harm's
           | way was in my job description but I wasn't alone, many
           | hundreds of us were (and are) involved in doing so. Luckily
           | there were people between me and those who worked with the
           | stuff and I'm very happy about that.
           | 
           | Still, you're right it's a silvery gray metal much like many
           | others that oxidizes quickly in air to give it that dullish
           | look. If you were to pick it up you'd notice it's very dense.
           | It's marginally heavier than gold by about 0.5g/cc^3 at about
           | 19.8g/cc^3. That it looks so boring could easily generate
           | complacency when handling it.
           | 
           |  _Edit: the 238 isotope is much more radioactive than 239, so
           | much so it 'd be hot to touch. But you'd be mad to do so._
        
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