[HN Gopher] Launch HN: Stellar Sleep (YC S23) - An app that help...
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Launch HN: Stellar Sleep (YC S23) - An app that helps people with
insomnia
Hi HN - We're Ed and George, the team behind Stellar Sleep
(https://stellarsleep.com/). We spent the past 1.5 years developing
an app that helps people break the insomnia cycle using psychology.
Insomnia has been a personal struggle for both of us. George's
insomnia led to him quantifying his sleep for the last 7 years and
making questionable life choices like wearing orange (blue-light
blocking) goggles to evening social events. I (Ed) suffered from
chronic insomnia for over a year and tried everything from cutting
coffee, blocking blue light, to taking melatonin and antihistamine,
but couldn't find anything that worked. It took an immense amount
of energy for me to perform even the most mundane of tasks, such as
doing my laundry or ordering groceries. At night, I felt
overwhelming loneliness and resentment as I lay in bed wide awake,
mindlessly scrolling through reddit and browsing HN in the middle
of the night. I even bought a $500 research-grade EEG device to
track my sleep, which was honestly kind of depressing because it
showed that I was sleeping less than 4 hours per night for weeks
straight. When I finally decided to see a sleep specialist, I was
put on a 3-month long waiting list. Eventually, I was able to get
my insomnia treated. That finally helped. But it also made me
realize that the same therapy that I received could be delivered
online--there is no reason why anyone should have to wait 3 months
to get treatment. George and I both have experience in digital
health, so we decided to partner with sleep experts to create
Stellar Sleep. People with chronic insomnia often receive
inadequate care advice. They're told to try cutting back on coffee,
meditate more, or make their bedroom darker, when chronic insomnia
is often rooted in deeper, psychological issues (e.g., financial
anxiety, workplace stress...etc.). In fact, " _present research
[now] supports the view that sleep is causally related to mental
health difficulties_ " (Sleep Medicine Reviews, Dec 2021, doi:
10.1016/j.smrv.2021.101556). This matches up with what we observe--
over 50% of our users reported that they have been diagnosed with
depression, anxiety or other mental health conditions. Stellar
Sleep uses psychology to help chronic insomniacs get their lives
back. We start by understanding a person's immediate sleep-related
challenges and providing them with practical strategies for dealing
with them. Then, we drill down on the underlying psychological
drivers of a person's chronic insomnia and create a program to
resolve those drivers one by one. Participants spend 5-10 minutes
per day completing modules in the Stellar Sleep app. We launched
last August, and have already helped over 10,000 patients improve
their sleep permanently. Here's how one of our customers, Victoria,
describes her experience: " _I've had insomnia for about 5 years.
I was at the point of desperation, willing to try anything.
Insomnia feels very lonely. It's 2am and your spouse is asleep.
You're very alone with your anxious thoughts. About the mortgage
rates changing. About all the things you have to do tomorrow
without any sleep. It feels like you're trapped and alone. After
starting Stellar Sleep I've now started sleeping better for the
first time in 5 years. I've gotten hope back that I can be normal.
Most people who sleep well don't worry about sleep. A good night's
sleep should just be normal._" We have strong clinical data
showing that we're just as effective as in-person treatment and
have a year-long clinical study running with Harvard Medical School
/ Brigham & Women's Hospital paid for by the State of Massachusetts
and the US Department of Commerce. On average, our users sleep 74
minutes longer than before and spend 52% less time awake in the
middle of the night. If you have trouble with sleep, try our app
and let us know what you think! If you have any questions, please
feel free to ask and we will be happy to answer them. We look
forward to hearing your comments and experiences! P.S. Here's our
FAQ page (https://stellarsleep.com/faqs) since so many of you asked
about pricing
Author : edreichua
Score : 121 points
Date : 2023-08-08 13:35 UTC (1 days ago)
| kumarski wrote:
| Godsend.
|
| I imagine like 90% of HN'ers suffer from insomnia.
| maxwell wrote:
| Why?
| tenzo wrote:
| Is this like Noom but for sleep?
| catsarebetter wrote:
| Struggle with insomnia, as do many many manyy people -
| https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=c....
|
| Will definitely give this a shot, thank you for the great work
| edreichua wrote:
| I know from personal experience how debilitating it can be to
| struggle with insomnia. It's one of those conditions that's so
| easy to hide and hope that you can just "will" it away, which
| is why people don't talk about it enough. Hope you find our app
| helpful!
| robonafisi wrote:
| I used this app and was kind of skeptical at first about how
| effective it can be. However, I was surprised to see its
| immediate value and continued improvement in my sleep. The app
| does a great job of giving you learning content in digestible
| pieces. The design is outstanding and makes you want to open the
| app to get a calm feeling. Overall, super cool concept and a
| great way to get better sleep.
| Solvency wrote:
| LOL is no one catching that this is literally a paid schill
| posted by a brand new account with zero history?
|
| This company is hilarious.
| lxe wrote:
| Please, please, please for the love of everything, stop with
| these 1000 question 10 minute-long onboarding surveys with fake
| loading screens that lead you to the payment page (or worse, an
| email form) regardless of your answers.
|
| These things are an insult to your users.
|
| I don't care if some marketer from noom wrote a pdf about how it
| "increased conversion".
|
| Just stop it. It's a horrible dark pattern.
| lukko wrote:
| I agree, I think it's awful. It's a waste of everyone's time
| and insulting to people who have a problem and feel slightly
| vulnerable. People aren't just numbers or conversion rates, and
| especially in digital health they should be treated
| respectfully.
| chasebank wrote:
| If the product actually worked, they wouldn't have to do this.
| People will pay lots of money for solving their sleep problems.
| tomcam wrote:
| Oh don't worry. It's only about 15 questions or so. Then when
| you sign up and pay, they make you fill out the same questions
| again. After that a talking owl takes over.
| edreichua wrote:
| We are still in the process of improving the survey, so your
| feedback is super valuable. So far, we have been over-indexing
| on helping our users figure out the severity of their insomnia
| and their sleep habits so we can create a personalized program,
| so our survey can be quite lengthy. Will definitely look into
| making it shorter. We do have pricing information in our FAQ
| (https://stellarsleep.com/faqs) but yes, it's easily missed on
| the page with other information. We'll look into making it
| clearer to our users.
| lxe wrote:
| Be honest, do the survey answers affect the resulting
| program? I literally put in random numbers and answers each
| time and it took me to the same exact payment page.
|
| There's also a "loading" screen that doesn't do anything
| except spin.
|
| You also throw in random interstitials all over the place
| making it even slower to onboard.
|
| You use savvyy nocode builder and this "onboarding" looks
| eerily similar to their "sleep app" template:
| https://trysavvy.com/example/sleep-reset-assessment.
|
| I see this playbook far too often. I'm sorry, but it sucks.
|
| Be honest with your users. Just provide them with clear info
| about what your service does and how it does it, and how much
| it costs, off the get go.
| edreichua wrote:
| Thank you for the feedback! We'll make information
| regarding pricing and program clearer to our users.
|
| Regarding your question, we do send the survey results to
| our backend, and based on that, we 1. generate a sleep
| report 2. assign you to one of several tracks we have. We
| also personalize your specific program within the track
| (e.g. we'll adjust your sleep restriction window based on
| your sleep efficiency etc).
| spdif899 wrote:
| You're missing the point - sure a long questionnaire is
| annoying but the real complaint here is the fact your site's
| primary CTA is to go straight into a survey that does not
| mention it will require payment afterwards.
|
| You're effectively holding users (and especially their data)
| hostage by exploiting sunk cost fallacy, rather than letting
| the value of your product stand on its own weight.
|
| Here is a recent thread on this exact topic with much more
| discussion about how user-hostile this is, and how it makes
| many assume that your primary goal is to collect data to sell
| rather than to help any individual with any benevolent task.
|
| Dear websites, stop asking for ransom sign-ups
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36962502
| edreichua wrote:
| Thanks for sharing! Will look into how we can make the fact
| that this is a paid app more apparent from the onset. We do
| have pricing information on our homepage
| (https://stellarsleep.com/faqs) but I'll be the first to
| admit that it's not easy to find.
| wussboy wrote:
| That is curious, since price is the first thing many
| people look for. You'd think it would be displayed
| prominently. The fact it's not almost makes one wonder if
| there is something untoward happening.
| asaddhamani wrote:
| It costs $63 per month and you need to pay quarterly. I
| guess that's why it's buried.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| Wow! Is this mostly meant to be prescribed rather than
| subscribed to?
| TylerE wrote:
| Nothing shows confidence in your product quite like
| requiring an extended lock-in, does it?
| hmcq6 wrote:
| the `/faqs` page is not the homepage.
|
| Why is pricing on the `/faqs` page and not it's own page?
|
| Hanlon's razor doesn't apply to YC backed startups. This
| is shady not sloppy.
| rmbyrro wrote:
| Your pricing is buried inside a collapsed FAQ? I was
| charitable to you when reading these comments, since I
| know sales is hard, but this is as shady as I've never
| seen before. It's a shame, because it casts a shadow on
| everything else and makes me question whether I should
| give you credit and really try this...
| ekanes wrote:
| I don't think you're really hearing the feedback here.
|
| When someone says "you're being shady" the right answer
| isn't "we'll look into how we can be less shady." The
| right answer is "oh snap, you're right. Sorry. We'll fix
| this asap please check back later today."
| shellfishgene wrote:
| They are mostly interested in making money, not helping
| people with insomnia, so shady is fine for that goal.
| mbesto wrote:
| Please, please, please stop listening to random engineers who
| aren't marketing people provide advice about marketing.
|
| Your business needs paying customers.
|
| That being said...the parent comment does make a valid point
| about this potentially being a dark pattern. I think a
| reasonable disclosure (small txt on bottom "free trial for 14
| days" or something like that) is probably a reasonable way to
| inform users.
| lobsterthief wrote:
| You know not everyone here is an engineer, right? Many
| marketers, designers, product people, and even engineers who
| do all of these things well.
| skupig wrote:
| GP is explicitly not interested in giving marketing advice.
| They're objecting to being tricked and manipulated.
| f6v wrote:
| Reminds me of the "brain training" apps that were fire back in
| the day. They'd fake-configure the program for you as well.
| gr0wthhack3r wrote:
| (Disclaimer: I joined the Stellar Sleep team after they got
| into YC, partly because I also had insomnia for many years and
| went through a full $1000+ in-person CTB-I treatment regimen
| which helped quite a bit)
|
| Hey there! Wanted to chime in and let you know that we hear
| your concerns! I expressed the same sentiment about long
| surveys to George and Ed when I was considering joining their
| team. We're committed to making pricing, user onboarding, etc
| more transparent and easier for our users.
|
| Yes, we do use onboarding survey responses to personalize our
| program. The programs on the payment page might look the same
| "regardless of your answers", but behind the scenes, we really
| are building customized modules based on your responses. For
| example, if a user mentions in the quiz that they have racing
| thoughts, we're working to surface relevant content earlier in
| the program and partnering with our professional sleep
| psychologists to create more modules that tailor to such needs.
|
| Everyone on our team is constantly learning, and we do
| appreciate your feedback and patience! To get the app off the
| ground, we needed to make quick decisions in the beginning and
| just go with what made sense to us, but as we build out our
| team and incorporate more of your feedback, we're committed to
| doing better. I wouldn't work here if I didn't believe this was
| part of our mission.
| gabrielsroka wrote:
| cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I)
| Solvency wrote:
| Why do you ask the same questions twice to build your
| modules. That's the problem here.
| lxe wrote:
| Thanks for the transparent response. Even if some or all
| answers are used to either fully customize the program for
| the user, or to place the user in a particular track, it's
| still a bad onboarding experience.
|
| The customer wants to see what your product is, what it does,
| how it does it specifically and succinctly, and how much it
| costs, front and center.
|
| These "onboarding surveys" is a recently hyped dark pattern
| that uses a huge number of questions along with fake
| spinners, and random interstitials to trick the user into
| entering an email at the end, due to the cost sunk into the
| onboarding experience.
|
| In marketing/sales speak, you're actually generating yourself
| a huge number of dud leads this way, making your true
| conversion numbers actually worse than what they could have
| been if you only signed up "serious" customers.
|
| If you insist on using an onboarding survey, place it after
| the signup email, and restrict only to questions, answers to
| which you actually use to generate the program for the user.
| confoundcofound wrote:
| Future.co does this too and it was really irritating. 20
| screens of questions, interstitial ads for the product I'm
| signing up for sprinkled throughout, all to funnel me to a
| payment page for a service experience that isn't commensurately
| influenced by my inputs. They make you do an introductory call
| with your coach too, where much of that information could be
| provided instead, and in a more human way.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| It does seem basically the same as signing up for a scam
| success course.
| tomcam wrote:
| Signed up, paid (or donated, not sure how it works) maximum
| amount for the app. It's about $18 for a trial period, then
| something like $200 per 3 months after the trial. Dirt cheap if
| it helps. I average less than 2 hours of sleep a night. Some
| notes.
|
| * They start with a questionnaire about your sleep. But that
| seems to be like those deceptive political ads that look like a
| questionnaire but are just fundraising clickbait, because...
|
| * After paying I had to fill out a nearly identical
| questionnaire. Hey, fuck you and the horse you rode in on, you
| fucking pricks. You just charged me money to waste my fucking
| life energy. Hey, did I mention I have sleep problems?
|
| * The app provides some version of cognitive behavioral therapy
| via insulting cartoons. The main therapist or narrator or
| whatever is the most goddamn condescending talking cartoon owl I
| can imagine.
|
| My sleep problems are no joke and being talked down to by an owl
| animated by a $75 Fiverr gig does not make me feel like a valued
| customer.
|
| I'm desperate enough to go through with this but it's not an
| auspicious start.
| anagri wrote:
| ++
|
| good problem to solve, nice personal story, but disappointed it
| is translating into clickbait+data scraping
| tomcam wrote:
| How so?
| neilv wrote:
| This sounds like helpful critique, but you might want to edit
| out the part about horses.
| H8crilA wrote:
| I have nothing to do with the product, and I understand the
| frustration. But if you sleep 2hrs/day you should probably be
| in a (psychiatric) hospital instead of trying apps. That is
| very severe, and likely caused by a significant (mental)
| disorder.
|
| Also, as a side note, cognitive behavioral therapy may feel
| like it is infantlizing you because it is digging up stuff that
| an adult should be able to understand and process more or less
| effortlessly on their own. But that's kind of the point of that
| therapy.
| tomcam wrote:
| All good points. I'm seeing my primary care physician with
| data from Fitbit the first time next week. Normally they just
| prescribed different sleep drugs, but none does anything for
| me. I think that up to this point, they probably assumed I
| was exaggerating the issues.
| pedalpete wrote:
| If this is correct that you are only getting 2 hrs sleep,
| and not just the data from your watch telling you bad
| number, your primary physician likely won't know enough
| about sleep to help.
|
| Go see a sleep specialist.
|
| The drugs will help you get unconscious, they don't help
| with sleep.
|
| A CBT-I app is likely not the solution for you either.
| johnsimer wrote:
| These are the same forms a sleep doc putting you on CBD-I will
| have you fill out.
|
| Except they will charge you a lot more money, have you come to
| the office and have you fill out the same form 3 times a row
| (online, then at the office, then verbally while talking to
| doctor) in typical doctor's office fashion
| tomcam wrote:
| I have never been condescended to more than by that fucking
| owl
| xivzgrev wrote:
| Your tag line is sleep better tonight. So I can't sleep. I go
| thru the hoops. Then you want to charge me, for something that
| may not work?
|
| I would prefer give me something of value - one tip to try
| tonight. If it works, I'll be back tomorrow with my credit card.
| foolinaround wrote:
| What benefits can one perceive in the first 7 days, to make a
| decision on whether it is worth it or not?
| edreichua wrote:
| Great question! Our users see a 6 point improvement in ISI
| (insomnia severity index) on average in the first 7 days, which
| represent a categorical improvement in insomnia severity e.g.
| from severe (clinical) insomnia to moderate (clinical)
| insomnia, or moderate (clinical) insomnia to mild insomnia. ISI
| continues to improve during the program, and the benefits are
| sustained after that.
|
| Another important consideration is patient adherence (i.e. how
| likely someone is going to stay for the program), which is
| something that many digital health apps (and even in-person
| therapy) struggle with. A lot of this is influenced by personal
| preference too (do you prefer reading, or watching a video, or
| listening to an audio to consume content etc). So you can tell
| from the first 7 days if our approach resonates with you.
|
| We also have a 30-day moneyback guarantee, so if the program
| doesn't work for you, we'll be happy to issue a refund.
| unconvinced2354 wrote:
| I checked out the website. You answer a variety of questions and
| the website tells you "yes, you definitely have insomnia, and we
| can definitely help you", and then it asks you for your credit
| card. I've seen that before. What I haven't seen is even the most
| basic description of HOW it's going to help.
| edreichua wrote:
| We are still in the process of improving the survey, so your
| feedback is super valuable. So far, we have been over-indexing
| on helping our users figure out the severity of their insomnia
| and their sleep habits so we can create a personalized program.
|
| Just out of curiosity, what kind of information will be helpful
| for you? We thought of including a flow chart showing what
| you'll be doing each week (e.g. dealing with a racing mind,
| cognitive restructuring, stimulus control, sleep restriction
| etc.) on the program, and also some of the information in
| https://stellarsleep.com/science. Do you think that will be
| helpful?
| stove wrote:
| For anyone like me who has struggled with insomnia, I have found
| that "sleep restriction", as used by this and other apps, to be
| the most impactful thing I have ever done. I've tried every sleep
| aide, pharmaceutical, and cognitive practice imaginable and
| nothing can even hold a candle to sleep restriction. I paid for a
| different app for a personalized schedule but the process is
| simple. These are the basics:
|
| - Go to bed very late at a time when you can barely keep your
| eyes open, for me it was 2am. Do normal sleep hygiene things
| until this time so stay away from screens and stressful stuff. Do
| this for the same time every night.
|
| - Do not use bed for anything except sleep. We are rewiring our
| brains so that bed = sleep and that's it. No reading, no screens,
| nothing except sleep happens in the bed.
|
| - Wake up after ~5 hours with an alarm. This sucks and I hated it
| but I stuck with it for 2-3 weeks and it shifted my entire
| existence. My sleep window was 2am-7am.
|
| - The first days will be hard and you may not sleep through that
| entire window. The important part is to wake up at the prescribed
| wake up time or whenever you wake naturally (very hard)
| consistently for a period of several weeks
|
| - Over time, you should be able to sleep through that window. For
| me, the process of being able to consistently sleep for a
| scheduled window was enough to prove that there was nothing
| "wrong" with me as I had told myself for 20+ years.
|
| - Over a longer time, you bring the bedtime up so you get more
| and more sleep, generally 15-minutes each time.
|
| After 20 years of insomnia, the past year has been the best sleep
| of my life. I only get ~6-7 hours or so per night but it is deep,
| restful sleep that is generally uninterrupted if I stick to this
| regiment. The beginning is not fun but over time I have adjusted
| to the hours and, most importantly, have outgrown the story and
| habits that drove my insomnia. For me, I knew how to sleep but I
| had decades of sleep anxiety and surrounding stress to get past.
| Being so tired you can do nothing except sleep helps you rewire
| your association with your bed away from "sleep is stressful"
| towards "sleep is easy".
|
| I paid for the Sleep Reset app to walk me through everything.
| Because I paid money for it, I probably had a higher degree of
| success than if I just Googled stuff and half-assedly tried to
| incorporate it. For ~$200, the app certainly has high margins and
| made money off of me but it was the best $200 I ever spent.
| edreichua wrote:
| I'm glad you found something that works for you! It's easy for
| someone suffering from chronic insomnia to just accept that
| there is nothing they can do (especially if they have
| experienced it for a very long time). It's great (and
| motivating for many chronic insomniacs out there) that you
| found a way to resolve/ cope with your insomnia after 20 years.
| Thanks for sharing your experience!
| ThinkBeat wrote:
| I hate this shit.
|
| People making app for serious medical issues and telling people.
| they be cured. They just need to believe in the founders. believe
| in the app and then they shall be healed Hallelujah.
|
| It is the app version of snake oil, and tv healing. Keep your arm
| on the tv right now.
|
| How about we make a surgery app? For a monthly fee it will tell
| you how to perform safe surgery on your friends and neighbors.
| Have a side hustle. Avoid huge hospital bills.
|
| Oh we can't do that because it would be dangerous and unethical?
|
| Well the brain is an unknown number of magnitudes more
| complicated than our physical structure.
|
| The industry producing apps to "fix your brain" in 6 easy
| installments.
|
| There is a good reason people go to med school and spend a lot of
| time specializing. There is a good reason for psychologists going
| to school and specializing. and even then, they have a hard time
| knowing what to do, because the science is not there yet.
|
| Had you actually been able to to solve the complex collections of
| disorders and issues that may cause insomnia would you be looking
| at a Nobel prize.
|
| Not $10 every month on the app store. (or however much it is)
| 221qqwe wrote:
| > Not $10 every month on the app store. (or however much it is)
|
| $63 per month with a minimum 3 month subscription... so yeah...
|
| However, if we're being fair "treating" insomnia is not exactly
| surgery there are clearly "self-help" style approaches and
| general lifestyle changes which would be helpful for many/most
| people suffering from it.
|
| I mean that fact that you can't "cure" it 100% for everyone is
| not a good reason not to try. I don't think the all or nothing
| approach is very constructive. Helping some people to some
| extent is still better than nothing (no clue if the app is
| worth it or not, although given the pricing and the way it's
| presented, I'm also leaning towards snake oil)
| ThinkBeat wrote:
| There are "sleep hygiene" changes (as they call it) that are
| beneficial. They are easy to find for free with a web search:
| This one the CDC links to:
| https://sleepeducation.org/healthy-sleep/healthy-sleep-
| habit...
|
| They are also usually the first recommendations that your
| primary care physician will offer you.
|
| Paying $189 for them seems excessive. But ok, yeah, the app
| can present it and help you keep up a new routine.
|
| The main reason for my comment was the way it was presented.
| As "a cure" for people with chronic insomnia. George had it
| for 7 years.
|
| By that point most people will be far past such initial
| recommendations. They are also far past what your primary
| care physician can help you with. The person then needs to
| see a sleep disorder specialist.
|
| Relevant quotes from the post: "Insomnia has been a personal
| struggle for both of us. "George's insomnia led to him
| quantifying his sleep for the last 7 years" "I (Ed) suffered
| from chronic insomnia for over a year and tried everything
| from cutting coffee, blocking blue light, to taking melatonin
| and antihistamine, but couldn't find anything that worked"
| avinassh wrote:
| I don't get it. Can you explain does this work and helps me sleep
| better?
| brogrammernot wrote:
| I feel like the various readme and the landing pages do a good
| job of explaining the CBT-I psychology.
|
| What parts of the learn more sections or pages didn't make
| sense to you?
| qwytw wrote:
| Why is it worth paying 60$+ a month for a 3 month minimum
| subscription(what's with that anyway..)? You could buy
| multiple CBT-I books for that.
| darcien wrote:
| Do you have plan for offering regional pricing? After finding the
| pricing deep inside the knowledge base, I'm shocked at the
| monthly price which costs 20% of the minimum monthly pay in my
| area.
| edreichua wrote:
| Currently, we are not doing regional pricing, but you can pay
| for our app using your HSA/ FAS through our partnership with
| Flex: https://withflex.com/partners/stellar-sleep. We also
| offer financial assistance plan. Check out
| https://support.stellarsleep.com/portal/en/kb/articles/is-
| th.... We will respond to you within 1 business day.
| qwytw wrote:
| > but you can pay for our app using your HSA/ FAS through our
| partnership with Flex
|
| Presumably they can't? If they are not in the US..
| darcien wrote:
| TIL about HSA/FAS. Like what the sibling comment said, it's
| not a thing in my place. Thanks anyway, I'll check out the
| trial first.
| siliconc0w wrote:
| An issue with these health apps is that HIPAA doesn't protect
| your data on these platforms so they can sell your patient data
| (I have no knowledge whether they do but many similar apps do and
| if they 'exit' new ownership would be able to)
|
| My personal experience is that I have found 50mg Trazadone as
| needed to be pretty helpful (rarely need at this point, just
| knowing I have it as backup is nice or if I have one bad night it
| doesn't become a pattern), some of the Huberman sleep stuff like
| NSDR, and the usual sleep hygiene stuff (regular bedtime, blue
| light glasses, cooling the room a bit more).
| Borg3 wrote:
| Insomnia.. Oh yeah.. People need to realize that humans itself
| create bad environment for sleep. Loud cities, loud neighbors,
| stressfull jobs.
|
| 10B ppl, we can make it!
| jmpman wrote:
| My sleep doctor prescribed CBT and it was a nightmare. Ended up
| so sleep deprived that I almost had an accident driving down the
| freeway. Simply didn't work. I feel bad for future patients that
| aren't receptive to CBT.
| coremoff wrote:
| I noped out when you have to take the ISI to continue any further
| and then the only access to the results is via email (and wasn't
| a fan of the prechecked send-me-spam checkbox).
| georgewangsf wrote:
| Just to clarify, you do get your ISI score (and the sleep
| benchmarking information) immediately after you answer those
| relevant sections in the quiz, without having to enter your
| email. Entering your email basically just gives you the
| consolidated report in one place.
| edreichua wrote:
| Thank you for your feedback! The reason why we needed your
| email is because we generate your sleep report and your
| personalized program asynchronously in our backend, but we can
| definitely consider showing some of the results immediately
| after the quiz without gating it. That being said, we promise
| not to spam (on average we send no more than 3 emails to users
| who stop engaging), and you can always unsubscribe from our
| mailing list.
| coremoff wrote:
| I also think that this page shouldn't be burried in the
| knowledge base section: https://support.stellarsleep.com/port
| al/en/kb/articles/how-m...
|
| Given the dark pattern around email, I immediately assumed
| your monetization was going to be via selling ads or personal
| data - I see that might not be the case, however I think that
| not making this very clear from the start is consumer
| unfriendly, particularly when your customer base is a self-
| described sleep-deprived individual who probably has mental
| health issues (which describes me, FWIW).
| edreichua wrote:
| Ok this is super helpful. We do have a FAQ section with the
| same information (https://stellarsleep.com/faqs) but yes, I
| totally agree with you. I never even thought that our users
| might assume that we'll be selling ads or their personal
| data so this is very useful context. FWIW, we take privacy
| very seriously and we're HIPPA compliant. In fact, we do
| work with several sleep clinics where providers actually
| refer their patients to our app, so we have very strict
| protections when it comes to personal data and PHI.
| gabrielsroka wrote:
| HIPAA
| coremoff wrote:
| Thank you for this reply, it has been helpful - I will
| have another go this evening at home
| edreichua wrote:
| Of course, let me know if you have any questions. Feel
| free to ping us at founders@stellarsleep.com
| edreichua wrote:
| In case this is useful for anyone, you can pay for our app using
| HSA/ FAS through our partnership with Flex:
| https://withflex.com/partners/stellar-sleep. There is a 7-day
| trial with the option of canceling anytime within the app itself.
| We also have a 30-day money-back guarantee, so if you decide at
| any point within 30 days that the program is not for you, you can
| get a full refund, no questions asked.
| fswd wrote:
| to me it took quitting coffee. But it took over 200 days to begin
| to notice. It's not as simple as quitting coffee for a few weeks.
| and really, 1-2 years.
| bandyaboot wrote:
| Sounded like it would be worth trying. Was hoping while I was
| answering the questionnaire that it wasn't leading down the road
| to an auto-renewing subscription. _sigh_
|
| How about instead of letting me choose how much I want to pay for
| the 7 day trial, you let me choose from the outset whether I want
| to auto-renew.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| Do you have any links to the research behind these CBT-I
| interventions? I'm curious what treatment looks like. I had never
| considered that I may have insomnia until just now, as I fall
| asleep fast and usually only wake up once during the night.
| However, I often wake up groggy and not feeling refreshed. I
| started tracking my sleep a couple months ago with a series 8
| Apple Watch and consistently see only 20-45 minutes in a "deep
| sleep" phase.
|
| I'd totally pay for this if it's something that might work, but
| honestly am skeptical about it working for my particular sort of
| sleep pattern. Congrats on the launch!
| edreichua wrote:
| Thanks! And yes, here are a few articles if you're interested:
|
| [1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
| conditions/insomnia/in-d...
|
| [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6796223/
|
| There's also more information on
| https://stellarsleep.com/science.
|
| If you don't think you have insomnia (you fall asleep fast and
| you stay asleep long enough), then you probably don't have
| chronic insomnia, which is what our app is designed for. That
| said, if you find yourself feeling groggy or not refreshed
| despite getting sufficient sleep, I would recommend that you
| talk to your physician. You might still find our app helpful
| (so give it a try and cancel if it doesn't work - we also have
| a 30-day moneyback guarantee), but just want to point out that
| our target audience is people with chronic insomnia.
| fburnaby wrote:
| I have no expertise, but this is my sleep. It turns out I have
| sleep apnea. I can "sleep" for 8 hours, but it does very little
| good. With apnea, you wake up as much as a few times an hour,
| getting very little REM. It took me years to consider apnea
| because I'm thin and somewhat fit. But all sorts can have it.
| edreichua wrote:
| Definitely recommend going to a sleep clinic and see a sleep
| specialist if you have untreated sleep apnea. I have friends
| with sleep apnea who managed to resolve their insomnia by
| using cpap machines (although it might take a while to get
| used to it). In some instances, surgery might help too.
| phosphorco wrote:
| Mouth taping radically changed the quality of my sleep fwiw.
| Consistent nasal breathing is huge.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| What kind of tape do you use?
|
| When I played hockey, I used to wrap my wrists with tape.
| If I left the tape on too long I would always get this
| itchy rash. I believe the technical term is, " irritant
| contact dermatitis"
|
| Can this be avoided when taping one's mouth shut?
| seancoleman wrote:
| I'm sure you're aware of https://www.sleepio.com (I followed
| their program a few years back). They use the same (similar?) CBT
| approach and I do think it helped but was far from a silver
| bullet.
|
| Does Stellar Sleep delve into sleep hygiene? Are "edge cases"
| considered e.g. some people report no difference with cutting
| caffeine (as mentioned) but others cut caffeine and instantly
| their insomnia is cured and their lives change.
| edreichua wrote:
| Yes, we're aware of sleepio. Unfortunately, sleepio is only
| available via their partnership with major employers, so most
| people in the US will not be able to access their program.
|
| Both Stellar Sleep and Sleepio are based on behavioral
| psychology. Sleepio is a weekly program (I believe you spend an
| hour each week). From our experience and also through user
| interviews, we found that it's easier for patients to follow a
| daily program (we offer daily bite-sized modules so you don't
| have to spend more than 5 - 10 minutes a day).
|
| Also good point! We do delve into sleep hygiene - that being
| said, our target audience is people with chronic insomnia
| (insomnia 3+ nights per week for 3 months or longer). While
| common advice such as "avoid caffeine after 4pm", "limit
| alcohol in the evening to no more than 2 drinks before 7pm" or
| "minimize the use of blue-light emitting devices an hour before
| sleep" are helpful, there is little evidence that sleep hygiene
| alone is sufficient to treat chronic insomnia.
| georgewangsf wrote:
| I'd also add that the big "open secret" in the sleep research
| community is that yes, CBT for insomnia is a great starting
| point, but it needs to be followed up with further
| psychology-based care. Sleepio is a great starting point and
| Stellar Sleep also delivers CBT for insomnia-based
| programming initially. The difference is that we then
| transition into continued psychology-based programming which
| sustains the results of the initial CBT for insomnia work.
| pedalpete wrote:
| When you say "we" are you commenting as an employee of
| Stellar or Sleepio?
| debarshri wrote:
| How do I sign up for this and pay? This is exactly what I need at
| this point in my life.
| georgewangsf wrote:
| To sign up, please go to our homepage and complete our sleep
| quiz. We require you to complete a quiz in order to develop a
| program that is personalized to our specific sleep needs.
|
| You can see our pricing information here:
| https://stellarsleep.com/faqs
| satvikpendem wrote:
| If you have insomnia, get checked for sleep apnea. I used to
| sleep more than the recommended 8 hours until I discovered that I
| was actually running on fumes and adrenalin most of the day and
| couldn't sleep at night until early in the morning whereupon I
| overslept. Now, I can fall sleep at a sane hour and sleep the
| recommended amount of time.
| georgewangsf wrote:
| Totally agree with this. Doing a sleep study and getting a CPAP
| machine, makes a big difference for those with obstructive
| sleep apnea.
| ryanwaggoner wrote:
| You give an "average rating" of 4.8 with "500+ five star
| reviews", but Apple says 4.5 with 173 total ratings, and Android
| says 4.3 with 205 total ratings. Which sure makes it look like
| your average is not 4.8, nor have you received 500+ ratings at
| all, let alone 500+ five star ratings.
| georgewangsf wrote:
| Ryan, I believe the discrepancy here boils down to 2 things.
| (1) We have a lot of users outside of the US and the stats
| you're looking at are only for the US App Store/Play Store, and
| (2) We've had several product updates including a re-branding
| which "resets" ratings. The ratings you see are the ratings for
| the current version of the app.
| jmtame wrote:
| I've had issues with insomnia starting in college. Found out I
| have a slow metabolism of caffeine (it's a genetic thing). I now
| sleep very well, getting 3-5 hours of deep sleep per night on
| about 7 hours of sleep. Things I've done to fix it:
|
| - No caffeine after 12pm. I stopped drinking coffee a few months
| ago, but I was fine as long as I didn't have it after 12.
|
| - Exercise with some portion being vigorous HIIT or lifting.
| Running also helps. It should tire your nervous system out.
|
| - Have a consistent sleep schedule. Don't oversleep on weekends.
| I'm up at 6:30am every day, give myself 30 min to wake up. Get
| some sunlight to flush out the adenosine in your system (do this
| before you drink coffee to avoid the afternoon crash).
|
| - AC goes to 67'f at night.
|
| - Don't work or study in bed.
|
| - I bought a nice bed (Purple Premier 4 King).
|
| - Blue light-blocking glasses about 2 hours before bedtime.
|
| - Not being a founder helps a lot, but figuring out stress
| relievers otherwise.
|
| - No alcohol. I've mostly stopped drinking, but this alone was
| the worst thing for my sleep. If I do drink, earlier is better,
| and only a few drinks.
|
| - Mouthguard that prevents me from snoring at night. I don't
| snore as much when I have a healthy BMI, but when overweight, I
| snore more.
|
| - Stop working 2 hours before bedtime. Same for gaming. These
| things are too mentally stimulating.
|
| - The things that stress you out, figure those out and make sure
| you're feeling good about progress each day. For founders, this
| sometimes just won't go away.
|
| - I've tried prescribed sleeping medications, but the one I took
| didn't actually improve quality sleep. It just made me feel tired
| and removed the stress. Some of these drugs are just
| sledgehammers on the pre-frontal cortex.
|
| - Use a sleep tracker and figure out why you're not sleeping
| well. Usually can be tracked to alcohol, large meals close to
| bedtime, or caffeine.
|
| - I take melatonin at bedtime. I had fatigue that I believed was
| because of poor sleep since moving to Austin, but realized from a
| doctor that it was actually just allergies. I take Singulair,
| made a huge difference in my energy during the day.
| areichert wrote:
| Curious how much overlap there is with the book "Say Goodnight to
| Insomnia"? [0]
|
| At a glance it seems quite similar, so I'd love to understand how
| the app is better than e.g. downloading a cheaper "wellness" app
| (with meditations, calming music, relaxation techniques, etc) +
| going through the exercises in the book [0]?
|
| [0] https://www.amazon.com/Say-Good-Night-Insomnia-Drug-
| Free/dp/...
| edreichua wrote:
| There is quite a bit of overlap. Our program uses many of the
| behavioral techniques (CBT-I) mentioned in the book, but we
| also go beyond just CBT-I to help you figure out the underlying
| psychological drivers of your chronic insomnia and resolve
| those drivers one by one.
|
| I wouldn't claim that our app is better than any of the
| resources you mentioned. The best remedy is what works for you.
| For some people, it might be reading a book on insomnia, or
| practicing mindfulness. A lot of this is also influenced by
| personal preference too (do you prefer reading, or watching a
| video, or listening to an audio to consume content etc).
|
| Our app resonates with users who prefer shorter and more "bite-
| sized" content (especially video or audio based) that can be
| consumed by spending 5-10 minutes a day, but there are also
| people who prefer receiving more information upfront. Go with
| what works best for you!
| lukko wrote:
| Well done for launching! I'm just very conscious of over-claiming
| and pseudoscience in this space...
|
| Is this classed as a medical device / SaMD? Does it require FDA /
| MHRA approval or CE marking? Why is there information on your
| website about Fatal Familial Insomnia when it is vanishingly rare
| and has only been reported a few dozen times worldwide? Are those
| self-reported improvements in sleep and can you measure more
| objectively with polysomnography?
|
| In the UK there's an app called Sleepio which is NICE-approved
| and prescribed to patients - is your app similar? One last
| question - how did you come up with the pricing ($63 per month)?
| [deleted]
| RomanPushkin wrote:
| > tried everything from cutting coffee, blocking blue light, to
| taking melatonin and antihistamine, but couldn't find anything
| that worked
|
| Suggestion from a friend: 1/4 to 1/3 of a liberty cap before
| going to bed.
|
| From another friend: "the sleep cycle normalized after 2 weeks
| sleeping in Maui with open window and swimming in the ocean every
| day. Now I don't need to take melatonin and magnesium"
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| Edit: removed my initial reactionary negative feedback - it was
| already said by other comments.
|
| I would just echo what others have said about the long onboarding
| survey and paywall.
|
| Hope you can continue iterating and you listen to the feedback,
| both good and bad! Good luck!
| bubbleRefuge wrote:
| I think I've had chronic insomnia for about 20 years now. I sleep
| 5 or 6 hours on good nights. Sometimes less. Don't have trouble
| falling asleep. The prob is waking and tossing and turning. Agree
| that the problem is probably psychological combined with aging.
| Since i cant forsake work, computer and cell phone screens for a
| year on a beach in mexico(which I think would fix the problem)
| I'll try the app.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| I quit my tech career to fix my sleep and it mostly worked. I
| sustain my lifestyle through iOS app revenue, and when I have
| sleep trouble or wrist pain, I simply rest. I recommend
| reconsidering your career choices.
| edreichua wrote:
| Sorry to hear about your insomnia. I know from first-hand
| experience how chronic insomnia can be debilitating and make
| one feel incredibly lonely. It might help to know that you're
| not alone. Over 50% of our users have insomnia for over a year,
| and many are able to find ways to improve their sleep through
| our app.
|
| For a while, I just accepted the fact that insomnia is
| something I've to live with (it's easy to feel that way
| especially if it has lasted for so long), but that's just not
| true. There are ways to better cope with your insomnia even if
| you're not able to resolve it entirely. Give our app a try and
| let me know if you have any questions.
| greatNespresso wrote:
| I don't know if this is voluntary but, personal opinion, not
| seeing the pricing upfront makes me not willing to start a 20min
| questionnaire. How do you monetize / plan to monetize this?
| greatNespresso wrote:
| Ok read the other comments and it looks like the pricing page
| comes after you filled the questionnaire.
| georgewangsf wrote:
| Thanks for the comment! You can also find our pricing
| information here: https://stellarsleep.com/faqs
|
| Given all the feedback, we're thinking it might be useful for
| us to create a separate page just for pricing as well.
| greatNespresso wrote:
| Thank you for replying! Will give a look to the pricing.
| Your app looks cool otherwise and I may be interested as
| well so that's why I wanted to share my feedback :) Good
| luck people!
| greatNespresso wrote:
| Side note, the question "Can I pay with FSA / HSA" does not
| unfold on mobile.
| georgewangsf wrote:
| Thanks for the heads up! We'll look into this. For now,
| you can go here for FSA/HSA payment instructions: https:/
| /support.stellarsleep.com/portal/en/kb/articles/stell...
| stevespang wrote:
| [dead]
| siva7 wrote:
| I still have no clue what a typical day using your app will look
| like. Yes, you are providing a "How it works" section but it
| still leaves me clueless about How it really works and no, i'm
| not gonna sign up to find it out.
| edreichua wrote:
| Happy to provide more information here.
|
| We start by understanding a person's immediate sleep-related
| challenges and providing them with practical strategies for
| dealing with them. Then, we drill down on the underlying
| psychological drivers of a person's chronic insomnia and create
| a personalized program to resolve those drivers one by one.
|
| Every day, you will go through a set of modules (5 - 10 minutes
| each day) that teaches you the psychology skills you need to
| get better sleep. The modules presented will be based on what
| we think will be most effective for you, given your sleep
| patterns.
|
| Our modules are often video based (short animated videos
| featuring our mascot - Merlin the owl) and audio based, and we
| have interactive modules, text based modules etc. Topics in the
| first phase of the program include how to deal with a racing
| mind, cognitive restructuring, techniques for general
| relaxation, stimulus control and sleep restriction therapy.
|
| You'll also be recording your sleep each day, and this will
| help us:
|
| + Further personalize your program
|
| + Recommend a sleep restriction window for the following week.
|
| Hope this answer your question!
| bravura wrote:
| What time of day do you receive the module, and is that based
| upon your timezone?
|
| What time of day are you recommended to use the module?
| andrebotelho wrote:
| Big fan of you guys. The app really helped with stabilizing my
| sleep pattern.
| georgewangsf wrote:
| Thanks Andre!
| BenGuz wrote:
| Cool idea - can you say more up front about how this works? I
| went through the (long) survey just to get a paywall with no
| information on what to expect.
|
| Also, do you plan to offer a version of this for teenagers? I
| noticed the youngest age range is 20.
| shellfishgene wrote:
| I think these very long surveys for this kind of app are more
| geared towards getting people to sign up after investing so
| much time rather than actually helping the app to do its thing
| better.
| tomcam wrote:
| A talking cartoon owl of sub-South Park quality tells you how
| to manage your life.
|
| Wish I were kidding.
| polonbike wrote:
| Same here. It does mention a daily email with advice and
| strategies, but I also feel like the paywall should appear
| after one week, not before any possibility to try what you are
| offering
| edreichua wrote:
| Thanks for the feedback! We're definitely interested in
| exploring a freemium model. Currently, what we offer is a
| 7-day trial, with the option of canceling anytime within the
| app itself. We also have a 30-day moneyback guarantee, so if
| you decide at any point within 30 days that the program is
| not for you, you can get a full refund, no questions asked.
| edreichua wrote:
| Yes of course. After you fill up the survey, we will be able to
| recommend a personalized program for you that's tailored to
| your sleep habits.
|
| The way it works is everyday, you will spend 5 - 10 minutes
| completing modules related to sleep/ psychology. These modules
| can be video or text based and is based on cognitive behavioral
| therapy for insomnia (CBT-I), which is the first-line treatment
| recommended by the American Academy of Sleep Medicine.
|
| You also record your sleep on the app, so we can further
| personalize your program and also apply an algorithm to analyze
| your sleep patterns and adjust your bedtime automatically to
| improve your overall sleep quality.
|
| You can learn more on https://stellarsleep.com/science.
|
| Our app is recommended for 18yo and above. Hope this answers
| your question!
| hmcq6 wrote:
| So for $63 a month customers can expect the app to:
|
| - send them a daily quiz and youtube video
|
| - suggest a bedtime
|
| Is that an accurate summary?
| wruza wrote:
| I think this summary is ignoring CBT-I aspect, assuming
| they managed to make it work without interaction. CBT is
| pretty much a specialty that you learn with a therapist. My
| main concern about subj is on that. And also: if they
| really pulled it off, they may just pivot/extend to full-on
| CBT as well.
| mdekkers wrote:
| You are asking me to do a lot of work upfront before I get
| any kind of idea around costs. I couldn't find any pricing
| information anywhere (except here in this thread) which is
| offputting to me. I didn't fill in the quiz or survey or
| whatever it's called, because why would I give info before
| you do?
| GGO wrote:
| [flagged]
| pedalpete wrote:
| As a life-long insomniac who also almost named his company
| stellar (https://soundmind.co) and is in the sleep space, I have
| quite a bit of experience with this.
|
| Note, at SoundMind, we are not an insomnia device.
|
| I think back to my conversation with a sleep doctor after a night
| at a sleep lab when I was 8 years old. I've literally never been
| a sleeper.
|
| Their recommendations were just the basic sleep hygiene stuff the
| conversation went like this... 1) Go to bed at the same time each
| night - "Yeah - I'm 8, it's called bedtime". 2) Don't drink
| coffee after 3pm - "I'm 8 years old, I don't drink coffee" 3)
| Limit alcohol(?) - "Yeah, I'm 8"
|
| I am deeply saddened and have some indignation that CBT-I is
| still the "gold standard", but unfortunately, that's where we
| are.
|
| If I knew of something better, I'd be building that, instead of
| what we are building at SoundMind, which increases the efficiency
| of deep sleep.
|
| CBT-I has notoriously low adherence rates.
|
| My biggest issue with CBT-I is the sleep restriction stuff.
|
| My take.
|
| Have someone who shows up who is experiencing insomnia. Most non-
| chronic episodes will resolve within a 5 week period.
|
| So a person is put on sleep restriction, at the end of sleep
| restriction where they are limited in the number of hours they
| can sleep, and that is slowly increased over a 6 week period. At
| the end, their insomnia is magically gone.
|
| So, I ask, at what time did your insomnia disappear?
|
| It's as if somebody had a cold and you said "eat chocolate every
| day for 6 weeks, and then we'll see if your cold is gone", and
| low and behold, as if magic, chocolate cures the common cold.
|
| Don't get me wrong, sleep hygiene is important, just like
| brushing your teeth. Do it!
|
| If you have anxiety which is causing you trouble sleeping, then
| recognize that and deal with the anxiety, but don't call it
| insomnia.
|
| Sorry Ed, but you can't make a claim that you've helped 10,000
| patients improve their sleep "PERMANENTLY".
|
| I wish you guys all the best, but mostly, I hope that you figure
| out something better than CBT-I and have a larger aim.
| xyzal wrote:
| No price information upfront, only shown after a lengthy quiz to
| ensure proper sunken cost while making the decision wether to buy
| or not. IMO disgusting.
|
| Also, that fake loading bar while "building your personalized
| program" is cringe.
|
| You had an opportunity to make your part in making the web a nice
| place again, yet you failed.
| anagri wrote:
| ++
|
| wonderful personal story, but doesn't look like it is
| translating 100% into empathy.
| d--b wrote:
| Hey there. It's 4am, just woke up. I have been insomniac for a
| while now. But I have this kind if insomnia where I have no
| trouble at all falling asleep in the evening. I just wake up
| early. Way too early. And then I can't go back to sleep. I don't
| think I am anxious at all. I just stay there in my bed not doing
| much not thinking much. Usually I can do stuff, and then go back
| to sleep around 8am for a couple hours, which isn't really
| compatible with having young kids and a job.
|
| Can your app help me? Or is it made to help some other kind of
| insomnia?
| edreichua wrote:
| Insomnia is defined as trouble falling asleep, or staying
| asleep. In your case, it seems like the latter. Our app might
| be able to help, but it also seems like you might be
| experiencing bi-phasic sleep which is more common than you
| imagine. Sleep restriction therapy (which begins in the second
| week of our program) might be able to help you consolidate your
| sleep into a narrower window if that's ideal for you. I would
| also recommend that you talk to your physician, especially if
| you have existing medical conditions. Hope you find a way to
| resolve/ manage your sleep issue!
| neilv wrote:
| You've ruled out that it's not just (what I've read was normal
| for some of our ancient ancestors) waking up for an hour in the
| middle of the night, to tend the campfire or whatever, and then
| go back to sleep?
| d--b wrote:
| No I did not rule that out. Problem is I rarely have
| campfires that need tending to.
| bwech wrote:
| I have the same problem. I can't speak to this app but I used
| to be up for at least 2 hours reading on my phone finally
| falling asleep when I need to get up. What has been working for
| me the past few months are podcasts. Most times I'm back out in
| < 1 min. I really like Fall of Civilizations. In a distant
| second place would be Boring Books for Bedtime or Bedtime with
| Wikipedia. Really anything that doesn't have loud noises or ads
| in the middle that you find soothing.
|
| But yes, not waking up at all at 4am would be great.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| While we are on the topic of helpful sleep podcast, here I
| two I used to use:
|
| Sleep With Me
|
| https://www.youtube.com/@Sleepwithmepodcast
|
| Jason Stephenson's Sleep Meditations
|
| https://www.youtube.com/@jasonstephensonmeditation
| gerad wrote:
| I've been self medicating with podcasts to solve this exact
| issue for 5-6 years. I'd advise trying to wean yourself off
| it before it goes on too long. I now have tinnitus from the
| earbuds in my ears at night.
| brandall10 wrote:
| You can listen at a reasonable level (70dB) indefinitely,
| and up to about 80 for an 8-hour period, without any kind
| of hearing loss.
|
| So the good news is unless you're absolutely blasting it
| with open buds to help block out background noise, the
| tinnitus was caused by something else, and there are many
| causes.
|
| I actually had tinnitus for nearly a decade in my late 20s
| - mid 30s... thought is was noise induced from multiple
| concerts without earplugs, but eventually decided to make
| all sorts of lifestyle changes to reduce stress and improve
| sleep and it magically went away.
| jlpom wrote:
| I have the same issue after an acute long term sleep
| deprivation (slept 9 hours in 3 days with nearly no REM) 8
| months ago. It turns out it damaged my thalamus (which is
| responsible for the wake-sleep alternance). Nothing can be done
| (at least currently) which is quite depressing, so I cope by
| taking long acting benzos which allow me to sleep 5-6 hours.
| From my research it also entice decreased ability to create <<
| sleep spindle >>, if your sleep is also not qualitative and
| you're not stressed, this may be an indication this is the same
| cause and you may want to see a neurologist.
| edreichua wrote:
| Agreed! Definitely talk to your physician if you're unsure!
| Not all chronic sleep issues are psychological in nature.
| smallerfish wrote:
| From a pricing perspective, I think your incentives are
| misaligned with your users', which is a problem.
|
| On a monthly model, you want users to keep renewing. However,
| users want their insomnia to be cured quickly.
|
| What about flat pricing instead? 7 days free to get over the
| pricing friction, $150 to purchase a license to the customized
| program, possibly with a fairly weak warranty (minimum 10%
| improvement in sleep time in the first 6 months or your money
| back.)
|
| Now your incentives are the same - get them "fixed" as quickly as
| possible and off the platform (and obviously upselling them on
| affiliate/related stuff if happy.)
| georgewangsf wrote:
| Thank you for sharing your perspective on our pricing model. I
| genuinely appreciate that feedback.
|
| We actually started our beta launch with a one-off pricing
| model. We only moved to the monthly model because we discovered
| through feedback from our beta users that chronic insomnia is
| fundamentally different from occasional sleep problems or light
| sleeping issues. Instead, chronic insomnia often comes from
| deep-rooted psychological factors, like unresolved anxiety,
| chronic stress, or burnout. These underlying issues can't
| typically be addressed with short-term solutions or quick
| fixes.
|
| That's precisely why we believe a one-off program might not
| provide the continuous support and adaptability required to
| address such nuanced/varied problems. Our monthly model
| actually creates a strong incentive for us to provide a highly
| effective product. After all, no one is going to keep paying us
| if our product doesn't continue to help them. As a result, we
| continuously invest a ton of resources into developing new,
| top-notch clinical content, make it incredibly engaging via
| animated videos, and are always refining our offerings based on
| user feedback and the latest research.
| gr0wthhack3r wrote:
| (Disclaimer: I joined the Stellar Sleep team after they got
| into YC, partly because I also had insomnia for many years
| and went through a full $1000+ in-person CTB-I treatment
| regimen which helped quite a bit)
|
| To add to George's point, people w/ chronic insomnia (like
| myself) had gotten this stage of consistent poor sleep after
| many month or years of negative behavioral/psychological
| conditioning. To see permanent improvement, it'll also take
| many months of positive conditioning. And there will be
| occasional relapses (due to new triggers, etc). And this is
| the case even if you go through a very good in-person CTB-I
| program that costs thousands of dollars.
|
| Our pricing model (quarterly, and in the future, monthly) is
| tailored toward the changing needs of our users. The goal is
| to equip our patients with an arsenal of tools to manage
| their sleep problems depending on the root cause, and help
| them recover from relapses more quickly when they need it,
| with similar efficacy as seeing an in-person specialist at a
| fraction of the cost.
| gabrielsroka wrote:
| cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I)
| slothtrop wrote:
| Add it to the pile. I think this is an important issue, but I
| don't understand why devs are compelled to create apps when the
| goal is just telegraphing information, and you only need to do
| that once. That's what books are for. I guess you'd have to count
| on there being a demographic that only wants to absorb
| information through apps.
|
| Much of the content is (and ought to be) freely available
| information anyway, at least for boilerplate CBT-i (see e.g.
| https://insomniasos.net/). Obfuscating what is the size of a
| buzzfeed article behind payments and apps to make a buck is
| absurd.
|
| Seeing a professional is one option, but ymmv. GPs don't seem to
| know much about this and reflexively prescribe pills because
| that's what people want and expect of them. Sleep specialists can
| be good, but the source material behind their approach can be
| limited and dated (like CBT-i itself). What I did is read a pile
| of research articles (maniacally at first), and books. It's not
| for everyone, but you'll find more useful information than in
| glorified advertisements in google searches.
| edreichua wrote:
| Thanks for the comment - I'm glad that you were able to find
| help online! Similar to you, I do consume a lot of content (and
| research articles) online, but to your point they are not for
| everyone. There's a lot of information online (some accurate,
| many not) that sometimes it's hard to tease out what's actually
| going to help especially for people who are sleep deprived.
| That's why we work with top sleep experts to create an app that
| users can trust, and we also conduct clinical studies with
| Harvard medical school/ Brigham's to validate our results.
|
| That said, we do offer more than just information. We allow
| users to track their sleep on our app so we can customize our
| program. Each user goes through a personalized track based on
| their sleep habits. We also automatically calculate your sleep
| restriction window for you. We also have relaxation content
| that you can listen to right before you go to bed, a worry/
| gratitude journal and a routine tracker.
| ffhhttt wrote:
| > There's a lot of information online (some accurate, many
| not)
|
| Books by (relatively) renowned/trustworthy experts are also a
| thing and they all cost less than your monthly subscription.
| georgewangsf wrote:
| Books are a fantastic resource in this space. We made this into
| a 5-10 minute a day mobile app for a few reasons:
|
| + A lot of people don't have the time or patience to invest
| several hours into reading a book. They'd prefer things broken
| down into actionable steps. In fact, we've done a lot of
| product testing to figure out how to improve program efficacy
| and we found out that the shorter and more "bite-sized" we made
| our modules, the more willing our users were to follow them,
| and the better their result.
|
| + The big "open secret" in the sleep research community is that
| yes, CBT for insomnia is a great starting point, but it needs
| to be followed up with further psychology-based care. Stellar
| Sleep delivers CBT for insomnia-based programming initially,
| then transitions into continued psychology-based programming
| which sustains the results of the initial CBT for insomnia
| work.
| a6man wrote:
| Incredible just how much of the USA has insomnia - do you have
| any plans to go global or raise awareness of the problem itself?
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