[HN Gopher] The unix69 keyboard layout: nerdy and nice
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The unix69 keyboard layout: nerdy and nice
Author : fanf2
Score : 46 points
Date : 2023-08-04 17:36 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (dotat.at)
(TXT) w3m dump (dotat.at)
| jwells89 wrote:
| As noted in the linked page, this is very similar to the HHKB
| layout, which is far and away my personal favorite. This is also
| basically the layout I use on my 65% boards and is my second
| favorite.
|
| I don't really have much of a need for a left Fn or physical
| arrow keys. In fact for the latter I find HHKB layered arrows
| more comfortable, especially when using the various macOS text
| navigation shortcuts, because it requires notably less hand
| movement.
| fanf2 wrote:
| I used Apple keyboards for, um, about a decade, so I am very
| habituated to fn on the left and arrows on the right for page
| up / page down / home / end.
|
| I have bound fn + the asdf row to switch virtual desktops /
| spaces, and left fn is convenient for a one-handed space warp.
| boarush wrote:
| Yeah I must say, have got quite used to this arrangement now
| and this has started to feel natural to me after almost a
| year of using the MacBook keyboard. Kind of perfect layout
| for me with the full height function row with media keys and
| the inverted-T arrow buttons.
| jwells89 wrote:
| That makes sense. I rarely used Fn until I bought an HHKB
| many years ago, and so for me it's weird if it's not on the
| right.
| lawn wrote:
| > A proper Unix keyboard layout must have escape next to 1 and
| control next to A.
|
| I don't get it, why is this a hard requirement?
| hyperhopper wrote:
| Vim reasons I'm guessing
| madphilosopher wrote:
| You can remap the key combination "jk" to ESC in order to
| switch effortlessly from editing mode to normal mode.
| inoremap jk <esc>
|
| ("jk" doesn't normally appear in English and is easy to type)
| hyperhopper wrote:
| I love this mapping.
|
| Unfortunately 90% of vim interface implementations don't
| support it.
| lawn wrote:
| If you want to have Escape in a good position, then the far
| top left is a really bad position, as is having Control on
| the caps lock position. But then to change that you'd need to
| reconsider the keyboard layout itself, which seems like a too
| big of a mental hurdle for most people.
| graywh wrote:
| Ctrl next to A pre-dates vi
| camgunz wrote:
| Maybe but I strongly recommend Ctrl-[ instead. Life changing.
| jt2190 wrote:
| I suspect because (some?) computer terminals had the escape key
| there, e.g. VT-100
| http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/vt100.html
|
| Contrast this with, say, a typewriter that would have no use
| for ESC.
| klooney wrote:
| Would really screw up my tilde muscle memory.
| coldpie wrote:
| I am continually baffled by how keyboard enthusiasts almost never
| have ergonomic layouts. If you care this much about typing,
| surely the first thing you do is get an ergo layout. The
| rectangle layout is really bad, people! How can you spend this
| much time and energy and money on keyboards, and keep using the
| awful rectangle layout?
| manaskarekar wrote:
| There is the world of ergo and/or split keyboards, which is
| quite fascinating, but rather expensive to `try one that best
| fits me`. (Ergodox EZ, Kineses advantage, OLKB splits and many
| more)
|
| There is also the Alice layout, which is an interesting step
| towards ergonomics on a traditional keyboard.
|
| I wish there was a keyboard club or something that let you try
| these out for a week or so.
| jsheard wrote:
| > I wish there was a keyboard club or something that let you
| try these out for a week or so.
|
| There's a useful tool for comparing ergo layouts and printing
| out 1:1 scale templates to get an idea of how they would fit
| your hand size:
|
| https://compare.splitkb.com
|
| It's not quite a substitute for actually using a real
| keyboard, but it can help to narrow down what you might want
| to try.
| coldpie wrote:
| I've got the Feker Alice 98 and like it very much! It's a
| great replacement for the old Microsoft Natural Elites I've
| been using for well over a decade.
| donatj wrote:
| I have arthritis in my hands. Switching to a super soft rubber
| dome did more for me than any of the tons of ergonomic layouts
| I tried. I poured a lot of money into the problem, including
| getting a Kinesis Advantage. I don't think they actually have
| much medical benefit at all. I think everything they achieve
| can be achieved by just placing your hands in a more
| comfortable position.
|
| My current keyboard of choice is actually a Unix layout Sun
| Type 7. Keys are very easy to push but not mushy.
| jwells89 wrote:
| My hand movement is minimal with Tsangan/HHKB layout and as
| such, I haven't had much issue with fatigue or pain even after
| long stretches of typing. I find that actually, keycap profile
| and switch weight are bigger factors.
|
| I do have an ai03 Meridian, which is a Alice-style board (which
| while not ergo is more in that direction), in the closet that I
| need to build though but have been putting it off because it
| requires soldering (hotswap has spoiled me).
| stronglikedan wrote:
| I started having problems with my hands, and switched to a
| split keyboard. I used them for years, but kept having
| problems. Now I'm back to a rectangle, with my wrists at an
| angle to the keyboard, and I don't have problems. I don't think
| it's the keyboard shape that's the problem, but just how some
| people align their hands with it. I do credit the years of
| split keyboards with teaching me proper wrist alignment though.
| And after getting my fingers used to it, I'm much faster and
| more accurate on the rectangle. Not to mention I have a real
| choice when purchasing keyboards again.
| colanderman wrote:
| The rectangle layout is only bad if you are a home-row typist.
|
| The problem with home-row typing is that your wrists are bent.
|
| It's possible to learn to type without bending your wrists. I
| am self-taught and have typed this way for three decades with
| no wrist issues due to keyboard use. My fingers rest naturally
| on "QWERF" and "JIOP". I actually cannot type on "ergo"
| keyboards due to the angles being wrong, and not being able to
| reach certain keys with both hands.
|
| (I did once have wrist issues due to mouse use, about 15 years
| ago. This disappeared when switching to a trackball.)
|
| Anyone who prefers "Control" next to "A" (myself included) is
| likely old enough to have learned to type before computer
| typing lessons were common, so maybe the author also is not a
| home-row typist.
| kiddico wrote:
| Let's just be honest... We like the way it looks more than we
| care about our long term health.
| spiffytech wrote:
| I've wondered if I have different keyboarding posture and
| technique from other people.
|
| My hands naturally sit at a 45-degree angle across the
| keyboard. For the most part, my wrists are straight and my
| fingers are lined up with the key diagonals.
|
| I also move my arms at the shoulders while reaching for keys,
| so my hand comes closer to the target key and my finger doesn't
| move so much.
|
| A split normal keyboard doesn't sound advantageous for me.
|
| Maybe I could be convinced to try a split ortholinear keyboard,
| but a 1-piece unit sounds like a very bad match for the way I
| keyboard. I feel like I'd be introducing all the same problems
| others are trying to get away from!
|
| EDIT: Just checked with my wife. She holds her hands in the
| same position, but locks them in place and does all of the
| reaching with her fingers.
| otikik wrote:
| It's not even a rectangle, it's a parallelogram (both hands
| move "up-left" or "down-right"). It's quite baffling
| fanf2 wrote:
| Some keyboard designs unreservedly embrace it
| https://1upkeyboards.com/shop/keyboard-
| kits/diy-40-kits/zlan...
| https://www.hackster.io/sonalpinto/purple-
| owl-a-60-keyboard-...
| bombcar wrote:
| Keyboard enthusiasts can never get carpal tunnel because they
| spend too much time switching keyboards to actually _type_.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| The days of static-mapped keyboards are limited.
|
| I reprogram my keycaps frequently. Clearly, there's no capslock
| to be had, and that's an ESC (vim user).
|
| But honestly, in the days of reprogramming at H/W or OS level,
| why are we worried about key placement this much?
| PeeMcGee wrote:
| This seems pretty nice if you spend 100% of your computer time in
| a shell. For typical usage, swapping out F keys with a modifier
| seems like a downgrade unless you're short on space, and macros
| seems sorta like a workaround to address absent keys that
| unexpectedly become important. Also sorta unclear whether delete
| will go backwards or forwards, and in any case how do you delete
| in the other direction? (the backtick/tilde positioning seems odd
| at a glance but it makes sense when I think about it.)
|
| I've definitely considered going with a more tuned layout such as
| this but I feel like it would just make things harder in general,
| with little to show for it apart from an increase in raw APM.
| Escape being where it is makes sense, but it's not like I find
| myself needing to immediately depress it to switch modes. "Escape
| Classic" takes a moment to reach and depress, but those moments
| coincide with some sort of context switch that your brain
| probably also needs a moment to adjust to, so it works itself
| out.
|
| Much how I imagine (probably incorrectly) switching to Dvorak
| might make other keyboards feel alien, the rearranged keys would
| be a hindrance unless I carry a keyboard with me everywhere and
| insist on using it. It's jarring enough switching from one laptop
| keyboard to another, and the differences there are typically
| minimal.
| jwells89 wrote:
| My F-key usage is extremely low, and so layering them is no big
| deal. On average I think I might use layered F-keys a single-
| digit number of times per year. This probably has to do with
| the platform of choice (macOS, which favors mnemonic shortcuts
| over F-keys) as well as the software one uses on a day-to-day
| basis.
| fanf2 wrote:
| I basically never use the F keys as F keys: when I am using an
| Apple keyboard they default to media keys and similar stuff,
| which I do use. On my new keyboard I have bound (for example)
| fn+plus and fn+minus to adjust the volume - plus and minus are
| directly under the volume keys on my laptop.
|
| The delete key deletes left when pressed by itself, or right
| when pressed with fn, same as Apple keyboards. Or use ctrl-d,
| which works in bash and emacs and all over macOS.
|
| I have configured the macro keys to move windows to
| predetermined places, which is something I need far more
| frequently than the 39 extra keys on a full-sized keyboard.
| icouldntresist wrote:
| Heh, "Eunuchs 69."
| drewg123 wrote:
| Please tell me that I can buy this somewhere..
| fanf2 wrote:
| I don't know of a way to get one that doesn't involve a lot of
| DIY.
|
| There are multi-layout PCBs that can support a unix69 layout,
| eg https://mechboards.co.uk/products/65-pcb but they all
| require soldering, and you also need to find a suitable multi-
| layout switch plate.
|
| I designed my own PCB and enclosure, mostly for fun. I will
| publish it but I need to make sure the custom KiCad library
| footprints are committed to the right git repository...
| tedunangst wrote:
| I like improper keyboards where esc is off by itself.
| fanf2 wrote:
| http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/d3cda2cbce5e12...
| tedunangst wrote:
| That's... not what I meant, but well played.
| jeppesen-io wrote:
| First glance I thought this was silly with left ctrl changed to
| fn
|
| But on closer look, I saw caps lock was changed to ctrl. Which is
| what I do on all my computers
|
| I hope the Framework ecosystem grows so we might someday see a
| keyboard like this for it
| stronglikedan wrote:
| > I saw caps lock was changed to ctrl. Which is what I do on
| all my computers
|
| But then how do you yell at people on the internet?!?!
| jwells89 wrote:
| If there were an HHKB or Tsangan layout keyboard module for
| Framework laptops, first party or otherwise, that'd make them
| significantly more appealing to me when laptop shopping. One of
| the main downsides of becoming a keyboard enthusiast and
| finding a layout that really "clicks" with you is that you're
| stuck with standard layouts on laptops.
| julesnp wrote:
| For my preferred layout in QMK, I have Caps Lock mapped to Caps
| Lock only on tap, and Control on hold. I also have the right
| Alt key mapped to Backspace on tap, Alt on hold, to give me an
| additional backspace which I can hit with my thumb, keeping the
| rest of my fingers on the home row.
|
| http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/4d894ef5848c4f...
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| And no CapsLock at all. Bug or feature?
| madphilosopher wrote:
| In my entire computing career, I have never locked my Caps or
| unlocked my Num! That's how I roll.
| smodo wrote:
| If you need capslock that's easy to emulate in software
| nowadays. For instance KDE has a default option to toggle
| capslock by pressing both shift keys.
| o11c wrote:
| I use that, but unfortunately it's not that easy (also I'm
| pretty sure it's not KDE-specific - most keyboard stuff
| even works in the console!).
|
| Let's use `xev`'s `state` field for reference:
|
| First, `state & 0x10` is NumLock which is the only modifier
| that's often set. Software knows to mask out this and a
| couple other modifiers when dispatching keyboard shortcuts.
|
| Second, `state & 0x02` is CapsLock. Software that detects
| CapsLock as a _modifier_ will work correctly with double-
| shift-as-capslock.
|
| Unfortunately, `state & 0x01` is Shift. Software that reads
| CapsLock as a _keysym_ (often e.g. games that use it as a
| "turbo" toggle) will often fail, because when double-shift
| is pressed, the shift modifier has been set. And it's
| generally considered a bug to ignore modifiers when
| dispatching keyboard events.
|
| Unfortunately, there is no event for _just_ "`state`
| changed", it is only dispatched alongside some other
| mouse/keyboard event. If you press just `shift` you'll see
| that it doesn't update yet for the just-pressed key (and
| fundamentally cannot due to how it has to work to switch
| between keycode->keysym mappings).
| zdw wrote:
| Definitely a feature. All the "lock" keys are bugs.
| pseudo_meta wrote:
| keyboard-layout-editor is such a fantastic site. It's really a
| bummer that it is unmaintained, haven't found any site that comes
| close.
| grozmovoi wrote:
| I like this layout. I'm used to the F keys tho...
| fanf2 wrote:
| You could make a 75% version, but it would not be quite as nice
| :-)
|
| I think my next design will have another column of macro keys,
| making 74 (my birth year mod 100).
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| The lack of F keys continues to boggle my mind on these custom
| layouts. I need to be be able to mash F5 or F8 at a moments
| notice without any chording nonsense. Unless you are working
| from an ironing board, most desks have ample "vertical" space
| to extend towards the monitor with the extra keyboard row.
| madphilosopher wrote:
| And keep them in groups of 4 so I can easily and deftly land
| on F5 and F8, which are to the extremities of the group.
| K7PJP wrote:
| Perhaps they're using these keyboards on a Mac? MacOS doesn't
| really use F keys. They're instead dedicated to some system-
| wide controls (media, volume, display brightness) by default,
| and you'd need to chord to use them as function keys. They're
| rarely assigned to anything anyway.
| seabrookmx wrote:
| 75% (84 key) is definitely your friend then.
|
| It's similar to a lot of laptop layouts as well, so if you find
| yourself often switching between a laptop and desktop it feels
| quite natural.
|
| I use a budget Keycool 84 (MX browns) and love it.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| I've built a few custom keyboard myself. What always stings
| though are the fairly limited keycap sizes that are available.
|
| I found you need to more or less target the least common
| denominator among keycaps lest you find yourself pigeon-holed
| into one single source for your keycaps.
|
| To that end, really wide spacebars are out -- you'll either have
| empty real estate along the bottom row or end up adding arbitrary
| "filler keys" (no, my retro keyboard does _not_ need a Windows
| /Command/Meta key).
|
| I like the Control key where the author places it, but you might
| find it challenging finding a 1.75u CNTL key among your favorite
| keycap set.
| fanf2 wrote:
| Yes, the downside of this layout is that inexpensive keycap
| sets usually lack the necessary extras. I am brewing a followup
| blog post with some notes on some of the more subtle things I
| have learned about keycaps.
| benreesman wrote:
| I originally went to blank keycaps to break myself of ever
| looking down to type, I was a decent touch typist before but
| doing that is "next level or bust" move.
|
| That was years ago, but I kept it because people seem
| impressed by it.
| donatj wrote:
| I'm a bit of a sucker for UNIX layout keyboards.
|
| It's made it to the front page of Hacker News before, but I have
| a post about how I fell in love with the HHKB Lite back in the
| day (HHKB + arrow keys) [1]
|
| After this I used a Sun layout Model-M Unicomp keyboard with
| classic IBM style buckling springs for a while. [2]
|
| I used the aforementioned WhiteFox True Fox in the office, it's
| still there but we've been working from home since COVID started
| - I'll probably go collect it one day.
|
| In the last couple years my hands started getting arthritic, and
| after trying a handful of ergonomic keyboards I finally settled
| on a Sun Type 7 [3]. The super soft rubber dome keys are the best
| I have used for my arthritis. They're soft, but not mushy. Really
| pleasant to type on. Not only that, but it looks cool but it's
| got the UNIX layout that I love.
|
| I even managed to remap most of the extra left column in macOS to
| F13+ keys that the OS can recognize and I can use for keyboard
| shortcuts. I actually bought the thing from Oracle back in the
| day brand new. The RFQ/order process was a bit of a nightmare,
| they were set up to sell to major corporations, not to some dude
| who collects keyboards.
|
| 1. https://donatstudios.com/UNIX-Keyboards /
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21912184
|
| 2. https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA
|
| 3. https://i.imgur.com/PftSNnk.jpg
| shrubble wrote:
| My Redragon K552 has the ESC key at the upper left in line with
| the dedicated Fn keys. This males it easier to hit when using vi.
|
| Beside "1" is backquote and tilde. Seems to work well.
|
| I should get around to remapping Ctrl and CapsLock one of these
| days...
|
| BTW the K552 has been able to take a lot of abuse over the years
| and is still working well for me, and it is not expensive.
| Cheaper keyboards often don't last a year with me (I learned on a
| manual typewriter). I think I paid $40 at MicroCenter like 2 or 3
| years ago.
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