[HN Gopher] On the (nearly lethal) comforts of a luxury cruise (...
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On the (nearly lethal) comforts of a luxury cruise (1996) [pdf]
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 59 points
Date : 2023-08-02 16:18 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (harpers.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (harpers.org)
| alwa wrote:
| See also Lauren Oyler's (May 2023) "I Really Didn't Want To Go,"
| also published in Harpers [0], which in part refracts this
| classic essay (and its author) through the lens of a generation's
| remove; also Patricia Lockwood's (July 2023) reflections on all
| of the above in the LRB [1].
|
| [0] https://harpers.org/archive/2023/05/goop-cruise-gwyneth-
| palt...
|
| [1] https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v45/n14/patricia-
| lockwood/wh...
| eastbayjake wrote:
| Fun Fact: it's been alleged by contemporaries like Jonathan
| Franzen that DFW fabricated many of these stories, there's a
| reason they were not published as nonfiction in a magazine with a
| rigorous fact-check process like the _New Yorker_. (Which is not
| to say DFW 's "nonfiction" writing is not entertaining or
| illuminating - it is!)
|
| https://www.theawl.com/2011/10/a-supposedly-true-thing-jonat...
| gizajob wrote:
| Yeah but part of the exercise is sending a fiction writer off
| to write non-fiction. Of course it gets fantastical, that's the
| point!
| lisper wrote:
| As someone who has taken a lot of cruises I can tell you from
| firsthand experience that many of his descriptions are
| factually inaccurate. But I think that is missing the point.
| What is really going on here, I think, is DFW struggling with
| his clinical depression, from which a cruise offered no respite
| despite the fact that it's one of those things in life that is
| supposed to Make Everything Better. Viewed in that light, it's
| quite a poignant glimpse into the tortured psyche of a
| brilliant mind.
|
| Just don't take it as anything remotely like an objective
| review.
| nocoiner wrote:
| That's interesting. I've only been on one or two cruises, but
| my recollection of the article is that it all seemed
| directionally accurate, or at least plausible.
|
| It sounds like you certainly know better that I would,
| though, so I'm just curious - what are some examples of the
| inaccuracies?
|
| I do not mean to be confrontational in the slightest, so I
| hope my question isn't coming off that way.
| lisper wrote:
| Well, let's start with the title. It is simply not true
| that anything on a cruise ship is "nearly lethal". Cruise
| ships are ridiculously safe environments compared to the
| rest of the world. Just about the only place you're going
| to be safer is on an airplane. Even your own home is almost
| certainly more dangerous than a modern cruise ship.
|
| The other thing that really struck me was his
| characterization of the cruise environment as "an enormous
| primordial stew of death and decay." It isn't, at least not
| any more than anyplace else on the planet. Sure, boats
| rust, but so what? This is just another example of the
| continual struggle of life against the Second Law. This
| entire planet is "an enormous primordial stew of death and
| decay." It is, of course, also an enormous nursery of life
| emerging from that death and decay. That's just the Way It
| Is. Cruse ships are just part of the human phenotype, no
| different from any other artifact. Nothing lasts forever.
| Getting maudlin about it is a choice.
|
| Some other random examples: he renames the ship from Zenith
| to Nadir as a dark joke, but then he keeps referring to her
| that way. The micromanagement he describes on page 37
| doesn't happen, except insofar as the staff will try to be
| helpful in allowing you to make the most of your limited
| time.
|
| Reading back over it I guess the problem is not so much
| blatant factual inaccuracies as it is continually and
| unrelentingly putting the worst possible spin on every
| detail of what is actually a very enjoyable experience --
| if you allow it to be, which he emphatically did not. The
| most charitable interpretation I can come up with is that
| this was the clinical depression talking.
| bob1029 wrote:
| > The most charitable interpretation I can come up with
| is that this was the clinical depression talking.
|
| I think cruises are kind of shitty. Is it possible that
| one could dislike the experience without suffering from
| something in DSM?
|
| To me they're the crowning jewel of shameless
| consumerism. It's like getting one of those 14-in-1 tools
| from the dollar store. Sure, you got everything in one
| pocket but they're all pretty crappy versions of the
| original.
|
| I get the travel angle, but airplanes are a hell of a lot
| faster. I've never found myself reading sky mall thinking
| I'd prefer to be roaming through an actual mall.
| gizajob wrote:
| or a writer really just goofing around in the same way
| as, say, Seinfeld.
| lisper wrote:
| I didn't like Seinfeld either. There are enough people
| behaving like assholes in the real world. I don't need
| more of that in my evening entertainment.
| gizajob wrote:
| Or George Carlin. Or Bill Hicks. Or a bunch of other
| people you don't like but that many enjoy regardless.
| lisper wrote:
| The problem with Seinfeld is that they deliberately set
| out to make a show with unsympathetic characters whose
| central personality trait is that they care about no one
| but themselves. Basically, they're sociopaths. Carlin can
| be abrasive, but I don't think he's a sociopath.
| gymbeaux wrote:
| The story is an excellent metaphor for how people like him
| (dare I say "us") look at life. We overthink and we are
| uncomfortable at the thought of being "pampered" as though we
| are superior to the person pampering us. Logical or not,
| that's how I feel about it. Perhaps it's because we are aware
| of the lousiness of a job such as "porter" whereas the
| average person is oblivious, disinterested, apathetic or
| whatever else.
| lisper wrote:
| In his famous "This is Water" essay DFW exhibits enormous
| empathy for others, but I find that empathy MIA here. Yes,
| there is a little bit of effort to describe the duffel bag
| story from the porter's point of view, but that's not
| really the overarching point, which is that Cruising Is
| Horrible because Life Is Horrible and there is No Way Out
| and there is no escape from the pit of existential despair.
|
| If instead he'd written a piece about how the staff on
| cruise ships work ridiculously hard for very low pay to
| give the guests a respite from their own shitty lives
| because the crew live even shittier lives than the guests,
| that would have been a much better piece. But that's not
| the piece he chose to write here. Alas.
| gizajob wrote:
| But why should he write something to suit your moral
| demands? The piece is clearly and obviously designed to
| entertain, and is written by a character called DFW who
| is as much of an invention as everything described. I
| feel you're missing the depth and the angle - it's not
| meant to be purely descriptive, it's artistic
| entertainment.
| lisper wrote:
| Yeah, I get that. But as a fan of cruising it feels like
| a cheap shot at an activity I enjoy and the people who
| work their butts off to make it possible. DFW seems
| completely oblivious to the fact that the people behind
| the scenes of his dystopian fantasy (to say nothing of
| people like me who buy their product) are actual human
| beings with hopes and dreams and feelings. You can spin
| this as "suiting my moral demands" but I think that my
| entertainment should come at their expense.
| gizajob wrote:
| Don't read it then...
|
| Also, if you're a fan of cruising, why do you continue to
| do it knowing the completely compromised position of
| those below decks who are being cruelly taken advantage
| of and underpaid to deliver you your cruise? It seems
| like you're pinning your own issues with yourself and the
| activity onto DFW while continuing to enjoy it
| lisper wrote:
| Because the people below decks are still taking those
| jobs voluntarily, and so as bad as their situation is in
| those jobs, I figure they must still be worse off without
| them.
|
| I also try to avoid cruise lines that really abuse their
| workers.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I think the last thing you want to do with clinically
| depressed people is to put them within a continuously
| available means of easy suicide while at the same time
| exposing them to some pretty rude examples of exploitation
| and near indentured servitude.
|
| Cruise ships are enough to make mentally healthy people
| depressed.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| I don't think people appreciate this enough.
| asdfman123 wrote:
| I think it's a big mistake for young people (like my former
| self) to take deeply unhappy 20th century authors like DFW,
| Bukowski, Hunter S. Thompson too much to heart.
|
| Yes, they did have important things to say, and yes, it
| wasn't their fault that they were so unhappy, but you should
| never try to be like them.
| adzm wrote:
| We were just trying to find the American dream
| asdfman123 wrote:
| It seems like they were too focused on rejecting
| everything that was already there, though. (FAL reference
| duly noted.)
| TheRealDunkirk wrote:
| Oblig: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbwlC2B-BIg
| jrm4 wrote:
| It's _really_ hard for me to see this as anything more than,
| Oh, Franzen 's a hater.
|
| Come to think of it, I've never read anything _about_ DFW that
| comes remotely close to what he did on the page? Like it seems
| like every writer who has more than a few paragraphs on DFW is
| someone _obviously_ inferior?
|
| Relatedly, a wild thing, Chuck Palahniuk has written _very
| little_ about him, but this included the fact that HE AND DFW
| SHARE A BIRTHDAY.
|
| That kinda blew my mind.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Franzen wasn't the first and hasn't been the most consistent
| among those raising this concern. DT Max, who was Wallace's
| friend, and not even a rival-friend like Franzen, has said he
| thinks the chess encounter from this story is fabricated.
|
| It's also been very convincingly established that the
| "companion" of the state fair essay didn't exist or wasn't
| there, which fundamentally changes the piece in a very
| serious way. His relationship to the publication in the
| famous "consider the lobster" essay was also not at all what
| he claimed within the essay.
|
| He was a great writer in many ways and these don't change
| that or reflect on his skill. I think his even publishing as
| "nonfiction" was more a characteristic of the literary-
| journalistic culture of his time, rather than an informed
| choice on his behalf. Tall tales and partially fictionalized
| accounts of real events are themselves a deep American
| literary tradition and there's no shame in that heritage.
|
| But it's well established now that he wasn't the most
| strictly scrupulous writer or person in general. He stalked
| and harassed Mary Karr for years, and he has absolutely been
| caught in small lies in his published works. Whether you
| still trust him on the big stuff is up to you I guess,
| doesn't speak to his literary legacy much either way imo.
| jancsika wrote:
| > Like it seems like every writer who has more than a few
| paragraphs on DFW is someone _obviously_ inferior?
|
| That seems like a crank opinion, at least wrt Franzen's
| writing and your italics around the word "obviously."
| jrm4 wrote:
| I mean, it's definitely my opinion, that's why I did the
| "it seems." To me it does feel obvious, but I do wonder if
| others agree?
|
| I mean, I've read Infinite Jest (I did mostly skip the
| footnotes) but I can't get through more than a few pages of
| every Franzen novel I've tried. Could just be me.
| huthuthike wrote:
| Franzen was one of DFW's closest friends.
| jrm4 wrote:
| Sure, but if you know writers, this in no way excludes the
| possibility I mentioned :)
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Aside: nice to know Harpers has secured that paywalled
| 'subscriber only' pdf content there...heh
| simulo wrote:
| I'm fascinated by the very mid-90s graphic design and typography.
| mahathu wrote:
| I don't know how it came about, but this was one of the first
| audiobooks I used to listen to as a child, when my family had a
| subscription that included 2 free audiobooks every week/month or
| whatever. It left quite an impression on me and turned me into a
| life long DFW fan, another favourite of mine is "Good Old Neon":
| https://sdavidmiller.com/octo/files/no_google2/GoodOldNeon.p...
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