[HN Gopher] Paperlike Color: Color E-Ink Monitor
___________________________________________________________________
Paperlike Color: Color E-Ink Monitor
Author : jahfer
Score : 185 points
Date : 2023-07-31 13:04 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.indiegogo.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.indiegogo.com)
| dbingham wrote:
| That refresh rate is pretty awesome. ...if that's real, and I'm a
| little skeptical, I kinda want a remarkable with one of these
| screens. That would be amazing. The poor refresh rate is one of
| the few things I don't love about my remarkable.
| jbarrs wrote:
| Not sure if this is the same product, but in my job I've met
| one of the researchers working on this tech. The screens they
| were able to produce had refresh rates high enough to watch a
| movie.
| packetlost wrote:
| One of my coworkers has the grayscale version of that. The
| refresh rate goes up to maybe 20Hz on "fast mode" which
| sacrifices quality for speed. It looks pretty good regardless,
| but IMO the real benefit of these screens is in consuming long-
| form text content.
|
| My ReMarkable 2 has a perfectly fine refresh rate, especially
| for writing/drawing. Is yours the first gen maybe?
| rockostrich wrote:
| > IMO the real benefit of these screens is in consuming long-
| form text content.
|
| Hard disagree. E-readers already do this and are 2 orders of
| magnitude cheaper. Long-form text content barely need 1 Hz
| refresh rates.
|
| The real benefit of these screens is being able to use a
| computer without the associated eye-strain. Most jobs that
| involve looking at a screen all-day don't really require high
| refresh rate screens. The main exceptions are any folks doing
| design or editing work. This is a huge game changer for the
| vast majority of folks on HN that are looking at a terminal,
| text editor, or docs for 90% of their day.
| sublinear wrote:
| > Long-form text content barely need 1 Hz refresh rates.
|
| The problem with such low refresh rates is that your eyes
| may have to work much harder to locate where you're at
| after you've scrolled the page.
|
| Not all content is formatted to never break sentences or
| paragraphs, and not all software even supports pagination
| as an alternative to scrolling.
| packetlost wrote:
| > This is a huge game changer for the vast majority of
| folks on HN that are looking at a terminal, text editor, or
| docs for 90% of their day.
|
| Hard disagree. Unless you're not typing all that much and
| particularly insensitive to input latency, you're not going
| to want to do too much typing on these. I know I couldn't
| stand it.
| sublinear wrote:
| Input latency is really bad even at 24hz. My typing speed
| slows down dramatically and typos feel so painful to
| correct compared to 60hz and above.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Some of us suspended the habit to look at the text while
| typing (on systems with latency), and look at the typed
| only periodically (off, on, off, on).
| sublinear wrote:
| I get that you're talking about situations like typing
| into a remote terminal, but this technique still causes
| eye strain which brings us back to square one with slow
| eink displays which are like this all day long.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| I was talking chiefly about typing on EPD :) (Soooo many
| keystrokes, so many hours.) I personally felt no eye
| strain - it may depend on your ability to adapt into the
| process.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Way back in the day I remember using a terminal
| (TeleVideo maybe?) where the characters just sort of
| faded in as you typed. The latency was really bad. But I
| got used to it pretty quickly and didn't find it really
| bothersome.
| layer8 wrote:
| > The real benefit of these screens is being able to use a
| computer without the associated eye-strain.
|
| Depends on your eyes. For my aging eyes e-ink is much too
| low-contrast. A high-DPI OLED screen on the other hand...
| agentultra wrote:
| I think it does depend a lot because my aging eyes, even
| high-DPI OLED screens tire me right out. E-Ink, on the
| other hand, requires much less strain as my eyes only
| have to take in the ambient light and not be staring
| directly into a high-nit source.
| layer8 wrote:
| I normally set the brightness of displays so that they
| are similar to the brightness of the environment (which
| is the general recommendation for ergonomics). Similar to
| how bright a piece of white paper would appear in that
| environment. I'm thus usually not "staring directly into
| a high-nit source", regardless of the display technology.
|
| The problem with e-ink is that their "white" is light
| gray instead of white, and their "black" is gray instead
| of black.
| mrkeen wrote:
| I have a remarkable 1. The refresh rate certainly keeps up
| with writing. It's just a bit slow if you want to hit next
| page a bunch of times in a row.
| packetlost wrote:
| Yeah, paging can be a little slow. I use mine for reading
| through PDFs and it's fine for the most part. I think it
| might partially be poorly optimized software, not
| necessarily the screen, but who knows.
| sydon wrote:
| I definitely wonder, the build is quite slim, I don't
| think the tech inside is that impressive.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _impressive_
|
| If electrophoretic displays were trivial to make, we
| would not be still developing the technology.
| LoganDark wrote:
| > My ReMarkable 2 has a perfectly fine refresh rate,
| especially for writing/drawing. Is yours the first gen maybe?
|
| That's because it does not refresh the display when drawing -
| it transitions the pixels directly (it's called a direct
| update, or DU mode). I worked on the third-party SDK for this
| device (hi!) and the DU modes do suffer from ghosting
| (similar to e-ink monitors) until the display is properly
| refreshed to correct the charges in each pixel, but this
| ghosting is typically not too bad when drawing, especially
| since there is typically a full refresh whenever you zoom,
| pan, or switch pages.
| dbingham wrote:
| I've got a Remarkable 2. I use it primarily for note taking
| and planning. Sometimes I need to move large chunks of notes
| around on the screen and reorganize things. The refresh rate
| becomes a real problem there. Also I often use the infinite
| vertical scroll, and scrolling up and down is a pain in the
| ass. Because of the refresh rate (I assume?) scrolling is
| limited to half pages and it's very slow.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| We have had 12.5Hz with "A2 mode" since a long time.
|
| And that display is a traditional B/W EPD with a colour filter
| on top, so it can use similar (fast and imprecise) "EPD
| waveforms" and yet have an effect of colour.
| [deleted]
| otachack wrote:
| This is really cool. It does make me miss the Pebble watch though
| as they dove into color e-ink for certain models as well. They
| seemed way ahead of the time and it's such a shame they couldn't
| make it through.
| jadbox wrote:
| It looks like it's under 30fps though to me... not sure if
| videos would be that watchable?
| jsheard wrote:
| The Pebble wasn't e-ink, it used a transflective memory LCD
| which they branded as "e-paper". Garmin still makes
| smartwatches using that technology.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _memory LCD_
|
| Interesting: ~5mW .. ~100mW.
|
| https://displaylogic.com/products-and-services/memory-lcd/
| gnicholas wrote:
| Exactly. I recently retired my Pebble, after the battery life
| was reduced to 1-2 days. I wish there were more watches out
| there like this. I found the Garmins to be much dimmer, and the
| Fossil to be poorly laid out for displaying much text (and the
| UI/UX was awful). I would pay AWU prices for a next-generation
| Pebble Time Steel, even if only added HR and a few other
| updates.
| joecool1029 wrote:
| Pebble did not use e-ink screens, it used a reflective memory
| in pixel LCD (I believe made by Sharp), refresh rates were
| never a problem using that technology, because it's just a LCD
| that has some tweaks for lower standby power usage. More on it:
| https://www.sharpsde.com/technologies-for/memory-in-pixels/m...
| It still requires a very small amount of power to keep the
| screen functioning.
|
| E-Ink uses a completely different technology that does not
| require energy to continue displaying an image on the screen.
| Only requires it to change it. Operates by moving charged
| polymers to make them go to the surface or fall away, similar
| to etch-a-sketch (edit: I was thinking magna doodle) toy, but
| charge/not magnetism.
| wnolens wrote:
| Work from Beach
| gnicholas wrote:
| Is it me, or are they hiding the price unless you sign up for
| their email list?
| rpozarickij wrote:
| Hm, I still couldn't find the price after signing up for the
| newsletter.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Yeah, I suspected it was a necessary, but not sufficient,
| requirement. Probably pricing will be determined based in
| part on how many people show interest (and how their
| manufacturing process evolves).
|
| But I've never seen a crowdfunding campaign that had no
| advertised price -- very strange!
| ekianjo wrote:
| wireless display? no HDMI?
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _Support HDMI, DP [and] Type-C input_
| Tepix wrote:
| During the first year of Covid, i tried using a Boox Max Lumi
| 13.3" with HDMI in as an external monitor for working at home on
| the terrace. It didn't work: Too much ghosting.
|
| The video looks promising. But i'll wait until there are some
| reviews.
| siva7 wrote:
| This product would make sense as a portable secondary monitor for
| your laptop rig. The demo video is weird. Watching youtube isn't
| a good use case for a color e-ink.
| LeoNatan25 wrote:
| They aren't watching videos, they are just lifelessly scrolling
| slowly a YouTube search results page with embarrassing search
| results.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _Watching youtube isn 't a good use case for a color e-ink_
|
| You may have not thought that part of the idea is using
| displays for education (video is an important format for
| educational material nowadays) in times where Countries are
| noting epidemics of eye difficulties (e.g. myopia) among
| students.
|
| This said, use of video (frequent refresh) on EPD is strongly
| inefficient - EPD is energy-optimal as bistable, and consumes a
| lot upon state updates. And, those EPD cells are not eternal,
| they have a lifespan of state switches.
| retrocryptid wrote:
| I'm trying to remember the last time I actually received anything
| I paid for on Indiegogo. Caveat Emptor.
| rvnx wrote:
| I already ordered product from DASUNG before, it was
| technically working, just useless because of the Windows-
| specific drivers that were needed and the poor refresh-rate (it
| was the B&W 13"-ish version of the monitor).
|
| However, the team in China was cool to interact with and seemed
| reliable.
| syntaxing wrote:
| Honestly looks awesome and Dasung is pretty consistent with their
| product delivery. Having color would be a game changer for
| coding. But the monochrome one is already an eye watering price
| ($1800 USD). This is probably going to be north of $2500.
| Puckettr3 wrote:
| [flagged]
| nerdjon wrote:
| I don't think I could ever see seriously using this as a general
| computing monitor.
|
| But I have been long wanting to replace a couple of screens I
| have mounted to the wall with e-ink variants (hooked up to
| raspberry pi's) but the existing solutions were.... not great.
|
| If the price is right for this, I might actually be into this.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _e-ink variants (hooked up to raspberry pi 's) ... If the
| price is right for this, I might actually be into this_
|
| At that point, you could just get the display and controller
| from E-Ink. The Kaleido of this monitor does not appear for me
| in the E-Ink shop, but there is the 13.3'' full AcEP on sale,
| 1600x1200, as-if 60,000 colours through pigments, for ~800$,
| <<Hands-on experiment with Raspberry Pi #3>>.
|
| https://shopkits.eink.com/en/product/detail/AtelierWith13.3'...
| nerdjon wrote:
| That is still a lot more than I would want to spend given I
| have working solutions with larger monitors.
|
| Plus I would need to figure out the mount for that, I
| currently just use a 3D printed VESA wall mount for what I
| have.
|
| But given that what you linked is $800 for a screen 10 inches
| smaller than what is being advertised here... this monitor is
| likely not going to be cheap.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _not going to be cheap_
|
| Sure, that was part of the point I was making (get the
| part1, not the 3rd party build). I thought you had an idea
| of the range: the B/W original costs 1,748 USD (links are
| in the page), this one has a few reasons to cost more...
|
| 1(incidentally, technologically better in this case)
| tromp wrote:
| I found the product page [1] [EDIT: older grayscale version] and
| this article [2] from June last year slightly more informative.
|
| [1] https://shop.dasung.com/products/dasung-25-3-e-ink-
| monitor-p...
|
| [2] https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/first-
| look-a...
| ajdude wrote:
| For an e-ink monitor, I was expecting it to cost much more.
| discordance wrote:
| so you don't have to click through, it's $1,748.00 USD
| elviejo wrote:
| That page is for the black and white version. They released
| that product a couple of years ago.
| f001 wrote:
| I think that this is a greyscale predecessor to the one in the
| indiegogo link.
| skerit wrote:
| Awesome, though I need this in a laptop.
| nashashmi wrote:
| I think you would be better off having it in a portable
| monitor.
| jsheard wrote:
| Boox makes a portable 13" e-ink monitor but it's tough to
| swallow at $800
|
| https://shop.boox.com/products/mira
|
| e-ink prices still shoot into the stratosphere if you want
| anything larger than 10"
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Do you need colour, and is 10'' enough for you?
|
| I just checked the current products from Onyx, and you can have
| e.g. a "Kaleido 3" 10.3'', 2480x1860 300 DPI (1240x930 150 DPI
| per tint) in the "Tab Ultra C", for ~600 coins.
|
| https://onyxboox.com/boox_tabultrac
|
| Very probably VNC or better Remote Desktop tech will work on
| it.
|
| Bring your laptop and your tablet, make the use you need.
|
| The problem: if you keep them cable connected, you'd be
| straining the laptop battery...
|
| --
|
| Or, Linux on the tablet (maybe via Termux, you can also get a
| desktop environment).
|
| Or, Android directly, with a BT keyboard...
| rpozarickij wrote:
| Lenovo ThinkBook Plus Twist[0] has been announced a while ago
| already. It should have a 12-inch color e-ink display in
| addition to a regular display.
|
| It was supposed to become available in June 2023, but there's
| only silence.
|
| [0]: https://news.lenovo.com/pressroom/press-
| releases/thinkbook-p...
| Philorandroid wrote:
| 0:28 of the promo video, "EVOLUTION OF HULK PREGNANT" is in the
| Youtube search results...
| ungruntled wrote:
| I have their 13in grayscale e-ink device. I assume the underlying
| tech is similar. What they carefully filter out is the
| significant ghosting of the device that builds up immediately and
| needs to be cleared with a button on the monitor. The contrast is
| also poor and blends with ghosted content so you need more time
| to tell what's real or junk pixels. The front light on the device
| is still required in most lighting situations unless you are in
| sunlight. Glare from non overhead lighting is very bad and
| worsened by the lack of a backlight. Content on significant
| portions of the page will flicker as you move your mouse and
| corrupt content already displayed unless you press the clear
| button. Content will flicker on many settings even without any
| movement. Even on the lowest refresh rate the device is still not
| really usable. I originally bought this to help with eye strain,
| but the poor visibility of content, flickering, and clearing
| action make it substantially worse than a regular monitor.
|
| Edit: I'd also add that the device emits a coil whine when the
| display is updating like when moving mouse. Its audible enough to
| hear over my wall AC unit.
| tomcam wrote:
| Very valuable feedback, thank you. Coil whine would drive me
| bananas. Username checks out.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| To be noted that EPD displays are in general completely
| silent. This exception...
| throitallaway wrote:
| Of course, there's more to a monitor than just the display.
| It could be the power supply, driver board, etc. that's the
| cause for coil whine. I've had it on one laptop that I
| owned; whenever there was I/O with the SSD I'd get a little
| bit of whine.
| sisve wrote:
| Just wanted to point out as a alternative datapoint thay i havr
| both 13: and 25" greyscale. And 25 is a much better experience.
| 13" is just to small. Im happy with 25" and will buy this new
| with color. I do not have flicker, at least not like you. but
| you need strong lighting on the screen.
| 5- wrote:
| speaking of passive screens on indiegogo, this launched recently:
|
| https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/world-s-first-color-rlcd-...
|
| in theory this should be much more interesting than e-ink (lcd
| refresh rates, similar to sharp mip displays in
| pebble/garmin/playdate, frontlight), but not so sure about the
| android tablet chassis.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Unfortunately, with these technologies, it is the effect
| revealed by direct experience to determine whether "you would
| use it or not".
|
| Cpr. Mirasol, etc.
| Groxx wrote:
| Mirasol is such a neat technology. As far as I've seen though
| it's kinda awful at off-angle color/contrast/etc. I'm not
| sure if that's a product maturity thing or a fundamental tech
| limitation... but I kinda suspect tech limitation.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Do not miss an important detail: it is Kaleido.
|
| It means, it uses an overlaid colour filter matrix (RGBW, if I
| remember correctly). This allows for the comparatively high
| refresh rates of B/W EPD, but it is B/W EPD with a semi-
| transparent multi-tinted layer on top, which obviously impacts
| the brightness.
|
| (The alternative would be multi-pigmented EPD cells - "Advanced
| Color E-Paper"... Which suffers from dramatically low refresh
| rate.)
| ddingus wrote:
| Dramatically low basically equals the single color refresh rate
| multiplied by the number of base colors used to form color
| images.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| You seem to be suggesting "a collection of pigmented subcells
| similar to the traditional B/W cell".
|
| ACeP works differently: the pigments are in a single cell,
| and it is a matter of different densities, size, speed,
| electrical sensitivity per material (per pigment) that
| determines the procedure ("waveform") to obtain the wanted
| colour in a pixel.
|
| So, it does not seem linear at all.
| dmitrygr wrote:
| No. Much worse. Think 30 seconds for a 7-color display. (B&w
| can do under one second)
| Scene_Cast2 wrote:
| Oh, interesting detail. I was looking towards the rumored
| Fujitsu Quaderno A4 Gen 3, which is supposed to have a Kaleido
| 3 color panel.
| bovermyer wrote:
| I'm curious about the refresh rate. From the video, it appears to
| be fast for an e-ink display. However, it still seems to be
| slower than what I'd be comfortable watching a video with.
|
| The other thing I'm curious about is the manufacturer. They seem
| to have a black-and-white version already available. Has anyone
| ever tried it?
| nashashmi wrote:
| I cannot understand the fascination behind seeing e-ink
| displays play video. The tech is a "display once, use forever"
| kind of display.
|
| Otoh, video needs bright vivid screens, gaming level quality.
| Quite the opposite of what a "display once use forever" tech
| would be suitable for.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Because you want to see content for its effect.
|
| Others may want to use content for its information.
|
| And different video effects are optimal for different
| environments (e.g. lightning).
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _lightning_
|
| (This is what happens when you say to yourself, "You mean
| lighting, do not write lightning".)
| Groxx wrote:
| While I agree it's a poor fit and pretty much just a crappy
| but flashy tech demo... the display is what it is, it doesn't
| have mandated suitable uses.
|
| Other reflective display tech exists. For the most part they
| suffer from screen-dooring, extremely bad visibility angles,
| much worse contrast in bright light, or complete
| unavailability in the size or resolution that you want.
|
| Eink may not have _many_ options, but it is _an_ option, in a
| market with few or zero competitors depending on what you
| want (largely because it 's niche), and refresh rate is often
| a thing you can bend on. I would love to see more, but many
| of the companies I've seen trying to do this in the past no
| longer exist, or they're selling even more niche ruggedized
| laptops and nothing else (and they still look much worse than
| eink, though they have color and refresh rate). It seems to
| be slowly ramping back up though, so hopefully within the
| next few years we'll see more.
| ZiiS wrote:
| Dasung have managed watchable video on their monochrome devices
| (unlike most of their competitors). The fast modes loose
| effective resolution, and contrast, and build up artifacts that
| need clearing. These compromises are very hard to bare at the
| sticker price.
| sisve wrote:
| Yes, i have the gray-scale version of this. Its really really
| good. You do not want to watch a movie on it.but if you need to
| see a 30 sec movie to understand something it ok. The biggest
| problem with the greyscale is how much color has to say on
| everything. Its so hard to see terminal errors etc. Yes you can
| customize a lot. And I do have use custom vs code themes and
| terminal themes. Buti need to switch each day when i work.
| Because of some website where darkmode is default or similar.
| Darkmode is a disaster for a greyscale eink monitor.
|
| Im def going to buy this device. Have a rm2 and the 13" dasung
| screen also. I would def recommend the manufacturer
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _darkmode_
|
| You need a contrast enhancing browser, or a shortcut for
| colour inversion (e.g. `xcalib -a -i` )
| sisve wrote:
| Thanks. Will try that. It's not that much stress to switch.
| But def a shortcut will be even lower barrier to use.
| Pet_Ant wrote:
| I don't think eInk will ever be capable of video-like refresh
| rates. It's had plenty of benefits, but refresh rates may never
| catch up.
|
| I have a secondary monitor dedicated to Slack, Teams, and
| Outlook. That would be perfect for this as it doesn't update
| often and the content is mostly static.
| no_wizard wrote:
| I don't know that there is any technical reason why e-ink
| can't develop a better refresh rate to match what we are used
| to, at least theoretically. I don't think its refresh rates
| are capped in that way.
|
| The real problem is cost of course. Part of that is e-ink is
| still governed under a patent you must license and pay
| royalties to if I recall correctly
| ZiiS wrote:
| The ink has to actually move; all sorts of physics sets
| hard caps to the refresh rate. Not saying they won't
| improve from what we have; but compared to the switch time
| of an OLED this isn't just lack of investment.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| Eink works by physically moving bits of material around in
| a viscous liquid. You can refine that (use stronger
| electric field, stronger reacting pigments, less-viscous
| fluid, thinner layer for smaller travel distance) but never
| get around it.
| thelazyone wrote:
| That is true, but this doesn't pose a theoretical limit
| to a 30 fps monitor.
|
| I suspect that the current technology works by "setting"
| in place whole regions of the screen at once, and that
| this kind of process is inherently slow. Maybe in a (not
| so distant) future it'll be possible to have individual
| pixels changing, in a similar way as an mp4 doesn't
| update all the image when not necessary.
|
| Or not. So many technologies just embank somewhere and
| find their niche.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _it 'll be possible to have individual pixels changing_
|
| EPD displays already have that capability.
|
| When you modify the dots you use a modality that is
| sensitive to former states. What happens in full-screen
| refresh is a cleanup to redraw on the best former state
| for the cleanest output.
| thelazyone wrote:
| Even local refreshes however are somehow rectangle-based,
| no?
|
| Which means that the resetting operation kinda works
| globally anyways, masking out everything between the
| xmin, xmax and ymin, ymax.
|
| I'm really speculating here, but this was my impression
| every time I saw individual areas changing without a
| gobal refresh.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| They do that already, and it results in ghosting and
| leftover artifacts.
|
| It's all tradeoffs, improving one number only to a
| limited extent and only at the expense of other numbers.
| Ie, faster action at the expense of worse image. No free
| lunch or getting around it by handwaving 'advancement'.
| thelazyone wrote:
| If the update was truly pixel based there should be no
| ghosting/artifact whatsoever. Looks like global refreshes
| or cleanup are still relevant, while _ideally_ each pixel
| could be completely independent.
|
| Trade-offs are a problem, but in this case i don't see
| any physical reason for this to be a theoretical trade-
| off. More like a limit of the current technology.
| arp242 wrote:
| It is pixel-based, it just doesn't result in perfect
| updates. I'm not entirely sure why this is the case:
| maybe the power is too low (as a trade-off between speed
| and accuracy), maybe clear a cell affects neighbouring
| cells, or maybe something else.
|
| E-ink displays are hardly new and lots of people have
| been thinking about/working on the slow refresh rates for
| over 2 decades. Do you really think that anything you can
| come up with on HN in 5 minutes without any knowledge of
| the tech is something people hadn't thought of before?
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _If the update was truly pixel based there should be
| no_
|
| Why? Nobody said that the cell is "reset". The cell is
| modified. The resulting state depends on the former
| state. This causes ghosting.
|
| To achieve what you are suggesting, the procedure would
| be e.g. to first set the pixel black, then white (reset
| to a base state), then the greyscale value of the
| intended content. This would slow down rendering
| dramatically, and make regions flicker.
|
| And, note, this may be something that some "EPD
| waveforms" do - but there are tradeoffs... E.g. Fast? Ok,
| lose the greyscales. Detailed? Ok, get lots of flashing
| at update. Mid-way? Ok get some degree of ghosting.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| It is pixel based logically, which comes out only
| imperfectly physically. Believe what you will.
| ambyra wrote:
| I wonder if it would be possible to layer screens to
| double refresh rate.
| shortrounddev2 wrote:
| This monochrome output claims to have a 60hz refresh rate:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds38T8wVuDg
| avivo wrote:
| Fascinating, this led to this projects which is pretty
| interesting. https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-
| monitor Seems like a very exciting effort and product but
| I'm not sure if it's still active.
| chaosprint wrote:
| I owned lots of E-ink devices. I got a Boox Mira 13 inch screen
| and it works well on both Mac/Windows. On Windows I can even have
| some touchscreen interaction. But I have to warn you!!!! that
| your mouse is not going to work as it feels very different. So I
| use it only to read news, reply emails and messages. Coding,
| video, and gaming would be impossible!
|
| The same thing would 100% go to this new display.
|
| I have also got a Boox X 13 inch tablet. I was choosing between
| this and Boox Ultra C which is a coloured one. But then I decide
| the screen size is more important than the color, the the Boox X
| 13 inch is much lighter! It's fantastic to read HN news and PDF
| every day with it.
|
| I once ordered ReMarkable 2 but the experience was a disaster.
| The PDF is rendered as picture. I couldn't believe it! Basically
| unusable even if it's free to get one.
| m463 wrote:
| I have a remarkable 2 and use it to read PDF and e-books. e-pub
| was slow, so I use PDF.
|
| It doesn't have to phone home or use the cloud, which is sort
| of refreshing. I have never hooked it into any network or even
| bothered updating the software.
|
| I use USB which becomes a network interface, then connect to
| http://10.11.99.1/ and drag/drop files. This is all local.
|
| No built-in lighting, but it works great with a reading lamp or
| in sunlight.
|
| It replaces a book in my lap and is just for reading books.
| Sometimes I use it while exercising on treadmill, and with the
| big screen and large type it works great.
|
| only nit, is sometimes swipe when turning pages is ignored and
| I have to do it a couple of times. (Maybe it is sleeping and
| needs to be woken?)
| overnight5349 wrote:
| I would suggest either updating the software or installing
| KoReader.
|
| The most recent official firmware has a much nicer UI, but is
| incompatible with homebrew at the moment.
|
| KoReader is much, _much_ nicer to use, as it 's designed
| specifically for e-readers. It has no annotation or pen
| support, but the reading features are so much better than the
| stock software. I typically have it set to dual-column in
| landscape mode, I find it more comfortable to read with the
| gigantic screen.
|
| Plus KoReader works with Calibre to manage your library over
| the network. It's really quite pleasant once you get it
| working
| LoganDark wrote:
| > remarkable 2
|
| Fun fact, you can hook this up to your computer and use it as
| a drawing tablet, maybe I should open-source my plugin for
| this :)
|
| > only nit, is sometimes swipe when turning pages is ignored
| and I have to do it a couple of times. (Maybe it is sleeping
| and needs to be woken?)
|
| It's an issue with how you do the gesture, I have the most
| luck doing it around 60% down the screen, from one edge to
| the other, and waiting for the screen to finish refreshing
| before doing anything else.
| SonnyTark wrote:
| I have the boox nova 3 color that I bought on impulse and
| immediately thought I should return but ended up liking it and
| a big part of that was how good the PDF reader was and the fact
| its stylus is not powered yet works perfectly. The color feels
| more or less like a gimmick, I think I'd have liked the same
| device with no color e-ink just fine.
| michaelmior wrote:
| I have the original reMarkable device and I love it. My father
| has the rM2 and also enjoys it, but I haven't felt the need to
| upgrade. I'd happy take a free one though :)
| layer8 wrote:
| The grayscale displays also have higher contrast (still low
| overall) compared to the color displays.
| myself248 wrote:
| RM2 ex-pat club member here too! Beautiful design, bizarrely
| crippled user experience. They put a wifi+bt chip on the board,
| but didn't connect the bluetooth signals, so you couldn't use a
| bluetooth keyboard with it like any other tablet. And a zillion
| other frustrations.
|
| I sold it to a friend after making super sure he was okay with
| the limitations and wouldn't blame me for selling him a lemon.
| jseliger wrote:
| I've written about this on HN before, but the RM2 people
| don't make the device show up as a standard USB device, which
| makes file manipulations hard. I think this is an effort to
| sell their "cloud" server stuff for a few dollars a month.
| That's not been the effect on me; instead, I barely use mine,
| and complain about it on the Internet.
| keerthiko wrote:
| To make this simpler I made Regittable[0] for personal use.
| As only an occasional RM2 user (a weekend a month), I
| activate the python script on my desktop, pack my RM2 and
| go to a cafe, and when I'm back my files are all in Dropbox
| or in the project git repo, depending on if they're new or
| old respectively. I had plans to add more features to
| Regittable (like have it submit PRs instead of committing
| as you) but never needed them myself so didn't bother.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| I will add as a user who dealt with it I will add that
| there is a ( paid ) solution that works well for my
| RM2[1]. It can be done on your own, but the amount of
| work made it worth the money Davis is asking.
|
| After that.. all of a sudden I started using it a lot
| more.
|
| http://www.davisr.me/projects/rcu/
| reckless wrote:
| True but what you can do is SSH to the device and install a
| custom launcher for apps that can read standard epubs, play
| chess, or expose the linux terminal on device.
|
| Not great for basic users but I've had significantly more
| use out of it with some advanced setup.
| plagiarist wrote:
| I always check for cloud server bullshit before a purchase.
| I lost all interest when proprietary cloud appeared to be
| the only thing set up for syncing.
| efitz wrote:
| Attention all device manufacturers: I don't want your f-ing
| cloud. When I buy a physical thing, having to keep paying
| you every month is a dealbreaker. I don't care that you
| want a constant subscription revenue stream, buying a piece
| of hardware is about me, not you.
| overnight5349 wrote:
| They also don't support USB OTG on the main port, so you
| can't even use a wired keyboard. They only just recently
| released a keyboard case that uses the Pogo pins on the
| side, but it's $200!!
|
| There was an abandoned(?) attempt to enable OTG. The
| hardware supported acting as USB host, but couldn't supply
| 5v so you needed a powered hub as well as a wired keyboard.
|
| But, the software support for text input is absolutely
| horrendous. It inserts a text block into the center of the
| current page and you can't move it. Hell, until the 3.0
| update, you couldn't even delete notebooks on the device.
|
| The RM2 is _beautiful_ hardware that 's about 90% developed
| with some truly awful software. Fortunately, you get root
| out of the box and the homebrew scene is active enough to
| give you most of the features that RM2 left out
| chaosprint wrote:
| all these designs prove that rm2 is the worst product I
| have ever seen
| lights0123 wrote:
| If you're willing to hack around with a reMarkable, koreader or
| plato have far better reading support if you don't need
| annotation.
| 23B1 wrote:
| Have been thinking about one of these for writing. Is it
| something you recommend for that express purpose?
|
| Note: I can't just use an e-ink screen w/keyboard and a simple
| text editor, I used a handful of specialized writing programs
| like Scrivener and FinalDraft and often collaborate in Gdocs,
| so I need something that mirrors the screen of a personal
| computer unfortunately. My goal is to be able to spend more
| time outdoors writing in the sun, which I can't do without a
| clunky laptop hood or other hacky solution...
| chaosprint wrote:
| I can only say that Boox Tab X 13.3 works for me. With
| Android you can do a lot of things. Also the Mira works fine
| to be a Windows screen but it might not be the best if you
| wanna a minimal outdoor setup.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| You can, but satisfactory text editors on Android can be hard
| to find.
|
| No issue with a large enough EPD tablet, a BT keyboard, a
| good text editor, good configuration and your ability to
| adapt to the system (latency etc.)
| 23B1 wrote:
| Thanks - I probably should have been clearer: I work in a
| variety of programs (FinalDraft, Highland 2, Gdocs,
| Scrivener, Notion) so I need to emulate what I see on my
| regular screen (OSX). My goal with the e-ink display is to
| be able to do more writing outside.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Then you could use Remote Desktop connection from your
| original laptop to a good EPD tablet, presumably Android
| based (to install the needed software on it). Or, of
| course, a monitor like that of the submission.
|
| But the biggest colour EPD tablet I see after a brief
| search is only 10.3'' big, see nearby
| https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=mdp2021
|
| You will also have to be prepared to the different
| technology: latency, for example, will be implied;
| ghosting; good lighting dependence...
| 23B1 wrote:
| Thanks a ton for the advice!
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Sorry, wrong link:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36944258
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _your mouse ... feels very different_
|
| Latency.
|
| It will work anyway, practically, through the right system, if
| you want to get used to it.
|
| > _... I can even have some touchscreen interaction_
|
| An all systems, if you use remote desktop technologies (e.g.
| VNC).
| chaosprint wrote:
| windows seems to have some optimisation for touchscreen
| chrisco255 wrote:
| Why make this for a desktop? E-ink is mostly useful for wireless
| applications and anywhere power is limited or there's a need for
| always on, static display.
| Version467 wrote:
| To relieve eye strain. Reading on an e-ink screen is so much
| more comfortable than on any emissive monitor. With current
| tech the downside is of course reduced refresh rate as well as
| low color contrast.
|
| Depending on the workload, that might be a worthy trade off. I
| tried coding on a grayscale eink display for a while and
| noticed a big difference in eye strain and overall
| concentration levels after a long session. But the display I
| had was too small and I didn't like living without syntax
| highlighting, so I went back to a normal screen. This product
| would solve those issues.
|
| Authors and writers in general might be another target audience
| for this product. It's niche for sure, but eink has a lot of
| applications beyond price displays in a store.
| mcny wrote:
| > To relieve eye strain.
|
| I think this will expose another, possibly larger, problem.
| My room is too poorly lit other than the screen.
|
| If there is no light coming from the screen, I am forced to
| turn on a light to read the screen. Maybe that's a good
| thing, I am not sure.
| bornfreddy wrote:
| Some people have an inverse problem - it is difficult to
| position a monitor so that it doesn't reflect a window.
| This technology sounds perfect for that.
| orbital-decay wrote:
| EPD displays aren't magically paper-like; in fact they
| are far from looking like actual paper. There's either
| plastic or glass in front, and they give the same glare
| as any other matte or glossy display. If anything, active
| lighting (either backlight or frontlight) helps mitigate
| glares, shadows, and other external lighting non-
| uniformities.
| asoneth wrote:
| > Maybe that's a good thing, I am not sure.
|
| If you are young or if you are old with eyestrain issues it
| may be worth your while to learn about things like bias
| lighting, blue filters, PWM dimming, etc.
|
| If you are old with good vision then I guess just keep
| doing what works :)
| CharlesW wrote:
| > _Reading on an e-ink screen is so much more comfortable
| than on any emissive monitor._
|
| E-ink vendors tout this, but the jury's still out.
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22762257/
| ant6n wrote:
| Cuz eye strain.
| kojiromike wrote:
| I have a Dasung e-ink monitor (by the power of grayscale). I
| find a lot of interesting reading on my work computer, but
| getting those links onto e-ink devices like my Boox has been
| irksome. Reading on the e-ink monitor was _almost_ worth the
| price. Ultimately, however, I retired it because the desktop
| real-estate, macOS's limited multi-monitor capabilities, and if
| I'm going to buckle down and read something long form I need to
| get away from my desk anyway.
| asoneth wrote:
| Many folks in my office have an ancillary monitor or two to the
| side of their main monitors, often in portrait mode, just for
| keeping docs, diagrams, and other reference material. But
| having so many backlit monitors in your field of view can
| become a little fatiguing.
|
| An e-ink display with sharp text and without a backlight could
| be useful for such a use case.
|
| But agreed that mobile contexts seem more broadly useful.
| ajdude wrote:
| It's also easier on the eyes and can be used in sunny
| conditions.
|
| With that being said, I would love to see one in a smart phone
| or laptop.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| There are many "smartphones" available with EPD display, and
| some of them use colour EPD displays.
|
| Check e.g. the Hisense.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| I print _everything_ to read it (if it 's more than a couple of
| pages) because I have a hard time reading with a backlight, so
| I'm seriously considering backing this, if for nothing else
| than to reduce my paper consumption (even though I do
| religiously recycle).
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Mate, why don't you "print" on an EPD tablet - an advanced
| "E-Reader"?
|
| There are already plenty around. If you need to read a long
| document, transfer it to the tablet in its best format (PDF,
| markup etc). If you need to browse a lot of documents, create
| a VNC connection and use the tablet as a display.
| scandum wrote:
| There's likely a market for office workers since there's a
| significant reduction of stress on the eyes.
|
| You'd save about 0.5 kwh a day in electricity, more if the AC
| is running. So I could see them becoming popular once the price
| comes down. People who run 2 monitors might be interested as
| well.
| CharlesW wrote:
| > _There 's likely a market for office workers since there's
| a significant reduction of stress on the eyes._
|
| There may be, but some studies have shown there's little
| difference.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22762257/
|
| _Methods: Participants read for several hours on either
| e-Ink or LCD, and different measures of reading behaviour and
| visual strain were regularly recorded. These dependent
| measures included subjective (visual) fatigue, a letter
| search task, reading speed, oculomotor behaviour and the
| pupillary light reflex.
|
| Results: Results suggested that reading on the two display
| types is very similar in terms of both subjective and
| objective measures._
| chrisco255 wrote:
| There is a significant reduction in color depth and refresh
| rate, plus a need to provide external lighting to make up for
| the lack of built-in lighting, which, depending on the office
| environment may cancel out any power savings.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _lack of built-in lighting_
|
| That depends on the environment. Natural light fights
| against the functioning of light-emitting displays.
| Reflective displays cooperate with natural light.
|
| You in the dark? Use OLED. Under the sun? Use EPD.
| no_wizard wrote:
| As kindle devices have shown though, you can backlight an
| e-ink display too
| mholm wrote:
| This is technically a frontlight. The panel contains a
| diffuser and has LEDs at all edges of the display.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _you can backlight an e-ink display too_
|
| And you could read OLED at noon in the tropics under an
| umbrella (I know I did) - but I was exactly talking about
| optimal use.
|
| --
|
| _A good scientist can file with a saw and saw with a
| file_
|
| ~~~ Ben Franklin
|
| _A wise guy does not, unless necessary_
|
| ~~~ We, here and now
| chrisco255 wrote:
| I don't know too many people operating desktop computers
| under the sun. They are usually situated indoors, often
| distant from any window access. Anyways the point stands
| that additional lighting discounts any power savings from
| using e-ink in a desktop environment. I get the use case
| for e-ink in the field. This product is not for in-field
| use.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _usually_
|
| HN is nth standard deviation sensitive. There is always
| market for some.
|
| > _additional lighting discounts any power savings_
|
| Not necessarily. Lighting today can cost fractions of
| watts, and on the other hands EPD can be energy costly -
| it depends on how many cell updates you are causing. So,
| the matter is probably less with energy consumption, and
| more about getting a better effect based on user and
| environment.
|
| > _This product is not for in-field use_
|
| Sure, it does not seem specific. But it can have its
| places. Be it some production site - maybe a quarry near
| the tropics -, be it personal - maybe you want to do some
| work in your garden...
| Pet_Ant wrote:
| Well it is arguably easier on the eyes for reading so it'd me
| great for terminals or for browsing documentation, content with
| little movement but lots of reading. I'd like to see this on a
| netbook to get better battery life and still be able to use
| emacs and remotely logging into systems. Just to carry around
| in a backpack while being on call.
| chrisco255 wrote:
| Yeah netbooks and tablets I totally get the use case for
| e-ink in those cases.
| jaflo wrote:
| I'm confused about this page, is it just to sign up for updates
| for when the monitor ships? I don't see any information on how
| much it costs or when it's available.
| jfax wrote:
| I'm laughing that the demo video features an adult in a suit
| sitting down at the computer to browse computer generated nursery
| rhymes on youtube.
| jonplackett wrote:
| Can they just license the tech already and let someone make a
| laptop.
|
| Outside working in the sun is the killer app for color e-ink
| chx wrote:
| I have a not-eReader 078 (back then it was just called not-
| eReader before the 10" sibling came to be) and it's an incredible
| device for a super small niche: secondary screen for an emergency
| laptop. https://imgur.com/a/xmRmYSn especially
| https://i.imgur.com/eV7qq8Y.jpg .
|
| Notably there has not been a successor to the One Mix Yoga 2S.
| Later devices are larger, the current crop of handhelds are
| gaming handhelds with appropriate controls without a keyboard.
| Even the Ayaneo Air 1S which only has a 5.5" screen is 224mm wide
| where the Yoga 2S was 182mm. It's a little narrower though. I
| might buy it and use it with the ancient Samsung NP-Q1 keyboard.
| sharikous wrote:
| If some Remarkable 2 person is watching I would buy in a pinch a
| 2-color version. No need for the whole RGB experience but having,
| say, red and black available when I take notes would make a big
| difference.
| cbeach wrote:
| Very impressive tech demo, but in practice, the lack of contrast
| and the slow (but impressive for e-ink) refresh rate would be a
| dealbreaker.
|
| Also, as others have said, what's the benefit of e-ink on the
| desktop where mains power is readily available?
| creatlv wrote:
| You could put it outside and enjoy glare-free outdoor computer
| work?
| shortrounddev2 wrote:
| I would love this for a laptop but I feel like the tech is
| too new to be that compact
| tazjin wrote:
| Dasung actually make a 13" version of this, which I own and
| have used outside in Egypt a lot while I lived there. It's
| a VERY sunny country, and normal laptop screens are almost
| unusable outside.
|
| My model is a few years older and things have probably
| improved since then (quality, refresh rate, interop with
| the OS to trigger things like full refreshes), but it was
| already fairly workable back then.
|
| I also use a phone with an e-ink screen (Hisense A9) as my
| daily driver and it's quite nice, some software issues
| notwithstanding.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| Being able to work with daylight without having to put the
| monitor brightness at an uncomfortable level is something I'd
| appreciate a lot.
| ZiiS wrote:
| If they can get them well calibrated then the is a market for
| prepress designers who wouldn't even look at the price.
| no_wizard wrote:
| E-Ink can achieve "real color" better than LED / LCD for design
| that is used in non electronic mediums.
|
| Also glare. The eye strain on e-ink is much less than that of
| LED / LCD displays.
|
| Subjectively I like the realism color aspect
| nashashmi wrote:
| Would love to know more on the color accuracy of e-ink
| displays.
| no_wizard wrote:
| TechCrunch has a nice break down of the possibilities
| around this[0]
|
| I am not sure how the color e-ink performs in _this_
| particular scenario with the monitor advertised compared to
| something like P3 enabled displays, but the tech has
| advanced that Gallery 3 panels[1] can produce 50K CMYK
| scaled colors are 300 DPI which is great for color
| accuracy, esp. in regards to physical materials (brochures,
| T-Shirts etc).
|
| That said, they're likely using Kaledio displays here, Good
| Reads has a nice breakdown of them[2]
|
| [0]: https://techcrunch.com/2023/01/12/e-ink-color-tech-
| epaper-ma...
|
| [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/25/23041407/e-ink-
| color-gall...
|
| [2]: https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/e-ink-
| kaleid...
| orbital-decay wrote:
| _> E-Ink can achieve "real color" better than LED / LCD for
| design that is used in non electronic mediums._
|
| Can it, though? What makes it able to, and what is the real
| color? When I hold a physical Pantone patch against my
| calibrated IPS display in proper viewing conditions, I fail
| to see any difference.
|
| _> Also glare._
|
| My experience is that E-Ink readers have the same issues with
| glare as any other display, compared to paper which doesn't
| have it.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _the same issues with glare_
|
| True, but that is a property of the products, not of the
| technology. (It seems that they are not using external
| layers of the highest quality.)
|
| So it may be possible to find an EPD display with a decent
| anti-glare finish. (It may also depend on the production
| batch.)
| orbital-decay wrote:
| It absolutely is the property of technology. You
| fundamentally need the see-through layer, and there's not
| a lot of materials that meet all requirements (optical
| transparency, durability, finish, coatings, etc);
| essentially it's plastics and glasses. In that sense, EPD
| isn't any different from other display tech.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Why would EPD be different from LCD natively shipped with
| anti-glare coating, or selected good matte films for our
| glass-based displays (e.g. "smartphones")?
| orbital-decay wrote:
| It isn't, that's my point. Both fundamentally have the
| same issues with glare, contrary to the OP claim that EPD
| is somehow glare-free. It can be mitigated a bit but
| getting to the glare level of actual paper (essentially
| zero) is probably not possible without major tradeoffs.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Ok - yes, you said that literally on your original - but
| then you interpreted as "property of technology" the
| parallel issue I was proposing.
|
| What I intended to propose was, _there may be unexpected
| glare issue with EPD display instances_ : you buy an LCD
| monitor and make sure that the matte coating is
| satisfactory; you buy a pocket computer and have a
| selected matte film applied to it; you buy an EPD display
| and go "it should be more anti-glare".
|
| I said that this is inherent to the outmost layer that
| the producer chose for the product. To be _that_ glare
| susceptible is not inherent in EPD as a technology. The
| product could be shipped at the quality level of good
| matte products or good matte films, or you could probably
| fix it with the best matte film available as you do with
| displays with front glass.
|
| A good matte display (via coating in-factory or via film
| aftermarket) is not as glare free as paper, but it can
| come pretty close.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| E-inks do not require a glass screen; it's there for
| durability. See
| https://www.digikey.com/en/maker/blogs/2022/is-an-e-ink-
| disp....
|
| Thus, the see-through layer is not a fundamental property
| of the technology; it is a property of the specific use
| cases of the device in which durability is required or
| expected.
| blizdiddy wrote:
| My unsolicited advice: turn on a lamp in your workspace, and turn
| down your monitor brightness. An app like twinkle tray makes
| adjusting screen brightness as easy as adjusting speaker volume.
| Your eyes really don't care about emissive or reflected light.
| laputan_machine wrote:
| Thanks for the recommendation, I didn't know such a thing
| existed
| swyx wrote:
| thanks for the prompt, i didnt realize i wanted a screen
| brightness ap. twinkle tray seems to be windows only so i
| googled and found quickshade for mac.
| ChrisRR wrote:
| I do anecdotally find that the better ambient light causes less
| eye strain.
| hoosieree wrote:
| When your pupils are smaller, the image that hits your retina
| is sharper, just like with a pinhole camera.
|
| Sharper images lead to less eyestrain because you don't need
| to keep your eye still for as long.
|
| I use light color themes for this reason. Although I always
| add the caveat to "do what works for you", because everyone's
| body is different.
| alanbernstein wrote:
| As a dark mode user, this makes me want to reconsider. It
| seems to make sense, but is it supported by evidence or by
| personal experience? I have not noticed such a difference
| in eye strain myself.
| [deleted]
| pepa65 wrote:
| The strain on my eyes is majorly caused by the lights
| shining into it. Dark mode helps, lower light emission
| helps. My eyes don't seem to strain so much keeping
| still...
| [deleted]
| jdthedisciple wrote:
| The contrast looks terrible.
|
| What am I missing?
| mdp2021 wrote:
| It is a reflective display: you have to put it in proper
| ambient light. Like paper, it needs external light - but it can
| be much less contrasted than paper, so you will need in the
| direction of a "glorious day lightflood".
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