[HN Gopher] I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-o...
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I feel hopeless, rejected, and a burden on society-one week of
empathy training
Author : willm
Score : 268 points
Date : 2023-07-30 15:53 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (shkspr.mobi)
(TXT) w3m dump (shkspr.mobi)
| zmower wrote:
| Ah, cancelling Virgin Media. I've done this recently. I got
| upset. I shouted down the phone at them. I'm not surprised
| they're being invetigated by OFCOM
| https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/jul/13/ofcom-investig...
| rawland wrote:
| This.
|
| Being disabled sucks even more. Because there is no "now I opt
| out" decision as the author could do. Kudos to doing the
| exercise.
| throwaway290 wrote:
| > If you don't have a voice, you're locked out of Virgin's
| upgrade and cancellation routes.
|
| Can't they be sued for that alone? Pretty sure there are lawyers
| making a living on things like this in the US...
| hbrav wrote:
| It's kinda disappointing that handling someone being unable to
| call hadn't occurred to these companies previously. But what's
| pretty terrible is the attitude of customer service being "you
| just have to call, sorry".
|
| This all reminds me of the advice is Patrick McKenzie's blog post
| "Identity, Credit Reports and You." Specifically: you never want
| to deal with customer service, they are the Department of Fobbing
| People Off. You want to be communicating in writing with a
| lawyer, since lawyers have the power to tell other people in the
| business "you're creating liability, make this problem go away".
|
| In this case I think you don't have the same structure as in the
| credit report case (an act that says they must investigate and
| respond within X days), so for credibility you probably do need a
| lawyer writing a letter for you. But I strongly suspect that
| something like the following will generate a response: "Dear
| Sir/Madam,
|
| I represent [user]. My client is a customer of your business but
| is unable to access your services due to [disability]. He has
| communicated with your customer services (see attached
| screenshots) and requested they provide a means for him to access
| these services. Unfortunately they have declined to do so.
| [Relevant legislation] requires reasonable adjustments to be made
| in serving disabled customers, and my client and I believe that
| [adjustment] could easily be made by your business to allow
| customers with [disability] to access these services. Please
| advise us within [x days] what adjustments you plan to make to
| allow my client to access these services.
|
| Yours,
|
| [Lawyer]"
| patmcc wrote:
| I agree with all of this, the only part I want to push back on
| is: "But what's pretty terrible is the attitude of customer
| service being "you just have to call, sorry"."
|
| I'm pretty confident in saying it's not the CSR who's deciding
| this - they probably have either limited access or an explicit
| directive from above that they _cannot_ do x, y, z in email
| /chat/whatever. In all likelihood they're an underpaid employee
| of some outsourced subcontractor to the actual company that
| decides that.
|
| I think we need regulations on this, the same way we need "if
| you can sign up from a website, you can cancel from a website"
| laws. If you offer x via a phone call, you can offer x via text
| chat too.
| PaulKeeble wrote:
| In my experience finding lawyers to represent you for these
| injustices is very hard. Disabled people also tend to be poorer
| and lawyers just aren't interested. Medical abuse of the
| chronically ill is a big area which lawyers refuse to deal with
| and it's rife with potential lawsuits. It's not this easy,
| everyone and I mean everyone treats you like your disposable.
| wombatpm wrote:
| I believe Prenda Law had a side business in these types of
| lawsuits when their copyright troll work hit a snag.
| the_other wrote:
| Please don't taint essential, but missing, legal support of
| marginalised people with the tarry brush of patent trolls.
| Doubly-so when you only "believe" the story to be true.
| SirMaster wrote:
| I'm confused.
|
| Wouldn't a person with no voice simply use a text-to-speech
| system to communicate over the phone?
|
| It doesn't look like they tried any such thing.
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| > Whether you work in tech or not - it is your duty to make sure
| that no one feels demoralised or rejected because of the systems
| you build.
|
| Shouting into the wind
|
| Until the financial incentives of investors, employees and
| customers align this will never be a priority
| lijok wrote:
| I would argue it's actually an educational problem, not an
| incentive problem. Most people (made up stat) would struggle to
| name/describe any disabilities beyond immobility, blindness and
| maybe handful of others. Then add in the lack of tools and aids
| (in the form of popular references, guides and QA forums)
| available and you have a problem.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| > it is your duty to make sure that no one feels demoralised or
| rejected because of the systems you build.
|
| Making such an assertion is easy.
|
| In fact, I've heard many, incompatible claims about duties that
| supposedly apply to me. Mostly without supporting arguments.
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| It's true, there's equal objective "support" for normative
| ethics claims across the board. So you can prove Nazi fascism
| is "correct" using the same process that you would to prove
| altruistic liberalism.
|
| Given that existential nihilism concludes with "it's up to
| you to choose what is right" my question to you is:
|
| Why would you actively choose a position that would be
| considered anti-social instead of a position that would be
| considered pro-social if they have the same objective
| grounding?
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| >Why would you actively choose a position that would be
| considered anti-social instead of a position that would be
| considered pro-social if they have the same objective
| grounding?
|
| Because one positions imposes significant costs and
| restrictions, leaving your life significantly worse off.
|
| Paying taxes to support the welfare of others is pro-
| social, but it means that I am laboring twice as much,
| instead of relaxing with my friends an family. It means
| that I am paying for the children of others using resources
| I would rather devote to my children. Why should I
| sacrifice my wellbeing for someone I don't know, and might
| not even like if I met them.
|
| Many behaviors that fall under the Pro-social labor hurt
| the individual and benefit others.
|
| If they are actually beneficial to the individual, they
| wouldn't need to be compulsory or the pro-social rhetoric.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| > Why would you actively choose a position that would be
| considered anti-social instead of a position that would be
| considered pro-social if they have the same objective
| grounding?
|
| This simplifies away some crucial details about the actual
| situation.
|
| For example, I have limited time and opportunities.
| Spending 200 hours making a piece of software more
| handicap-friendly may mean 200 hours less of being a good
| parent to my kids. Or working at a homeless shelter.
|
| We can probably agree that all 3 activities are "pro
| social" in some manner. But I can't tackle all of them.
| Part of growing up is accepting that you can't do
| everything.
|
| I'm open to changing my priorities, but not without good
| justification.
| charcircuit wrote:
| Not everyone is social. Some people want to build what they
| want even if that means a group of people will be excluded.
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| This is simply saying that you do not have, and do not
| desire to acquire, the emotional capacity to be satisfied
| with the social trade offs of voluntary subordination of
| a portion of your own personal desires to benefit the
| desires of others who may also want to commune with you.
|
| So if your proof claim is simply "I don't want to" then
| it's entirely ignoring the question with the idea that
| it's not your choice anyway - you're just born that way -
| which is not a relativistic statement.
|
| In fact it's a biological determinism argument and if you
| would like to go down that hole I think it would yield
| that your claimed antisocial "preference" is extremely
| rare historically - to the extent where as an outlier
| it's questionable if it is an evolutionary fitness trait
| or if it's ultimately supporting a genetic brick wall.
| klabb3 wrote:
| > Why would you actively choose a position that would be
| considered anti-social[...]
|
| Isn't anti-social a very loose and subjective term? Using
| your own example, wouldn't it be considered anti-social in
| Nazi Germany to oppose mainstream culture like military
| parades, Hitler-Jugend etc?
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| The pettiest example of this is red-green colorblindness (the
| overwhelmingly most common kind of colorblindness).
|
| Many interfaces, such as git's, use red and green despite the
| common (?) knowledge that red and blue are the preferred
| combination for accessibility.
|
| I think most people prefer red and green, though.
|
| So there's incompatible concerns to cater to: do you
| demoralize most people by switching to blue or do you
| demoralize the colorblind minority by keeping green? :D
|
| (In the limit, you're going to inevitably hit some bedrock of
| elitism beyond which it's irrational to dig. Your interface
| will probably not be usable by dogs, for example.)
| wheybags wrote:
| Coming at this from a gamedev perspective - imo, if you
| can, the best solution is to never use colour _alone_ to
| convey information. For example, you can have a blue and a
| red thing, but the blue one also has spots. Or it 's a dark
| blue, and the red is light. Or the blue thing is a diamond
| and red thing is a circle, etc etc. This has the added
| benefit that it helps everyone, not just the colourblind.
| rjaco31 wrote:
| Just add a toggle for a colorblind mode
| nitwit005 wrote:
| I assume you mean github, rather than git? It's not reliant
| on the colors. The "Code" and "New Pull Request" buttons
| are green, but they also have text on them. Various icons
| also have assistive text.
|
| There are quite a few variations of color blindness, so
| ultimately you want color to just be a hint. Handling the
| most common case is a partial fix.
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| >So there's incompatible concerns to cater to: do you
| demoralize most people by switching to blue or do you
| demoralize the colorblind minority by keeping green? :D
|
| I'm not sure what to say here to be honest because you're
| comparing these two things as equal with "demoralized"
| being the only downside somehow so lets see what the
| implications to the people are of such a system, using your
| own example:
|
| - A disabled person not being able to functionally use a
| system that is often required for their work
|
| - A non-disabled person being able to functionally use a
| system that is often required for their work, but the text
| is a less preferable color
|
| In the first case it will take someone with an involuntary
| disability longer, with more difficulty, to perform the
| same task (comprehension) as someone without the
| involuntary disability
|
| I'm not sure how you could possibly equivocate these - and
| then further double down on lack of empathy by suggesting
| that making a website easier to use for risks a slippery
| slope of irrational accessibility requirements
|
| Unreal that this has to be spelled out
| throwawa14223 wrote:
| Or other people don't believe it to be a deontological style
| duty.
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| I don't disagree with you, however we are talking about real
| people in society, not a theoretical philosophical system.
| I'm unaware of any wide scale explicitly adopted philosophy
| wherein there is zero responsibility from individuals to care
| for others or society.
|
| I am curious though what you would describe as your personal
| philosophy, or if you're not talking about yourself then what
| ethics framework are you referring to living inside that does
| not have a normative component.
|
| Maybe a better way to ask it is: what relativistic philosophy
| is dominant enough or otherwise adopted to such an extent
| that people are able to functionally live underneath it
| without any type of a-priori responsibility to others.
|
| What I DO see however are people who reject responsibility
| for others, yet accept or even demand support from others -
| even if it's tacit - and then hold a position like you
| describe.
|
| So I remain suspect of anyone promoting some extreme version
| of individualism, as it conflicts with not only biology, but
| the entire history of societies and philosophies.
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| That will never happen? Ergo government regulations
| lijok wrote:
| > it is your duty to make sure that no one feels demoralised or
| rejected because of the systems you build
|
| What a beautiful quip.
|
| What if I'm building driving theory testing software? That's a
| very on the nose example. What about ticketing systems?
| Reminder app? TODO app? Wishlist functionality?
| programzeta wrote:
| Thank you for asking this, it helped tease out and crystalize
| some thoughts I've had about the difference in tenor between
| computer programming and software engineering. I hope these
| off-the-cuff answers help explain why this doesn't feel
| quippy to me; they are specific in scope but those scopes are
| common.
|
| --
|
| Write clear error messages that provide a way forward. Accept
| your system will have bugs, and ensure the system state is
| communicated to the user so they know if their
| TODO/Test/Reminder/Wish was stored/updated/deleted. Do your
| utmost to prevent data loss - even when that data hasn't been
| formally introduced to your data storage of choice.
|
| Developers should not worry about their sprints being blown
| because they have to use your APIs. Teams trying to pass off
| tasks or getting special commendations for dealing with your
| software should be embarrassing. If developers are wrapping
| your API in their API, are they doing it because they need
| the abstraction or because abstracting it once and tracking
| changes is easier than using it?
|
| Ensure there are logs in place to assist debugging and
| documentation catered towards end-users, operations, support,
| and developers. Track relevant metrics to allow for automated
| fixes and manual intervention so users aren't the ones having
| to remind you your software is broken.
|
| Every piece of software has a user - a person, an
| organization, other code - and software that doesn't make the
| user's life easier increases the chance they'll stop using
| it.
|
| Or worse, start using it incorrectly!
| zer8k wrote:
| > it is your duty to make sure that no one feels demoralised or
| rejected because of the systems you build.
|
| This is the most dangerous line of thinking and one of the many
| reasons people are tiring of woke-ism. Most reasonable people
| agree accommodations for the disabled are both smart from a
| business perspective, and kind to patrons in general. To
| reframe having objections to this as a "demoralization" and
| "rejection" that needs "special training" to understand seems
| more like the schizophrenic sociologists are off their meds
| again.
|
| Importantly, I have no duty to anyone except my family. I am
| not obligated _by anyone_ to do anything _for you_. This is not
| to be interpreted as me not having empathy for the disabled.
| But it is not my obligation to do anything about it. I have
| worked specifically in this industry helping the visually
| impaired navigate websites better. However, I cannot afford to
| do such a design for my own personal sites. These types of
| prescriptive ultimatums are exhausting and when they 're
| codified into law they have an unintended chilling effect.
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| [flagged]
| majewsky wrote:
| > Most reasonable people agree accommodations for the
| disabled are both smart from a business perspective, and kind
| to patrons in general.
|
| If that were true, then given the evidence presented in the
| post and in this thread, the corollary would be that a
| significant amount of large businesses are run by
| unreasonable people.
| josephg wrote:
| > Until the financial incentives of investors, employees and
| customers align this will never be a priority
|
| In some parts of the world, disabled people can sue businesses
| over accessibility issues. People complain about the
| "disability mafia" shaking down businesses, but I think it
| might be the only way to align incentives to actually get these
| problems reliably addressed.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| > People complain about the "disability mafia" shaking down
| businesses, but I think it might be the only way to align
| incentives to actually get these problems reliably addressed.
|
| But IMO the other side of this is also tricky, because you
| don't want companies to respond by removing services for
| everyone.
|
| There was an article on here the other day about how a town
| had a non-ADA-compliant crosswalk. Fearing a lawsuit, the
| town addressed the issue... by removing the crosswalk. (You
| could still cross the street--with a wheelchair, even--but
| you had to walk much further to do so.)
|
| I also remember the article about the California university--
| was it Berkley?--where some professors posted their lectures
| freely online for members of the public. Of course, they
| didn't have the resources to go through and add subtitles--
| these lectures were for non-students, they didn't generate
| any revenue--and the university got sued. Obviously, they
| responded by pulling down the lectures.
|
| Situations like these just make everything worse for
| everyone. How do we write regulations which avoid that?
| Chris2048 wrote:
| To be fair, you tried to find out "how society treats disabled
| people", then chose cancelling an internet subscription as the
| bellwether; This is painful and anger inducing when you _aren 't_
| disabled.
| mavili wrote:
| "This is discrimination. I don't know sign language and I don't
| have text relay. I can't use my voice."
|
| This his reply to instructions telling him he can ask for sign
| language or use text relay if he cannot use his voice. I hardly
| see this as discrimination. This is in no way different from a
| perfectly able person saying it's discrimination to expect me to
| read and write! Sign language is the language of the voiceless.
|
| Life isn't perfect. Of course we should do as much as we can to
| make life for the disabled easier. But seriously people feel so
| entitled and expect so much from everyone. People need to accept
| that not everyone can accommodate 100% of needs. Governments
| should, but not private entities.
| Kye wrote:
| It's actually not uncommon for deaf kids to be forbidden or
| discouraged, depending on era and local pedagogy, from learning
| and using sign language. And like any language, it's harder to
| learn later in life. ASL isn't just English with handwaving.
| It's a whole other language. Same with all sign languages.
| kvetching wrote:
| Hilarious that people downvoted this.
|
| The writer is fooling you all. Virgin literally provided
| solutions to his issue. A text relay service is the answer if
| you must speak on the phone. I remember using AT&T text relay
| as far back as early 2000s. Any person that can't speak would
| be totally familiar with this solution.
| edent wrote:
| Let's say that tomorrow you get a really bad sore throat. Like,
| the worst. So bad that you can't speak.
|
| How much sign language do you know right now?
|
| Disabilities can be temporary or situational. They can be long-
| term or sudden.
| szatkus wrote:
| I would probably use the sign language interpreter option and
| write down what I want to say on my phone or on paper.
|
| (unless they have some weird policy to only serve customers
| who use sign language)
| mavili wrote:
| I'd wait until my sore throat is gone. And if I have a
| disability for longer I'd have to learn to navigate the world
| my friend. Just like me and you have had to learn to read and
| write. Funny enough, we also had to learn to use a phone. Oh
| how dare companies expect us to know use a phone and dial a
| few digits!
| edent wrote:
| And this is why it is called "empathy" training.
| majewsky wrote:
| Wow, this gas leak looks really bad. Let's hope my sore
| throat gets better quickly so I can call for help about
| this.
| userbinator wrote:
| No need to use sign language. Had the "can't speak"
| experience after a dentist visit. Took out a piece of paper
| and wrote down what I wanted to say and showed that instead.
| These days people would probably use their phone and type it
| out.
| navjack27 wrote:
| The biggest disability I wish people would explore in their
| accessibility is issues with impulse control. So much of the web
| is designed to keep us hooked and I firmly believe that people
| that have issues with impulse control have a good handle on the
| obvious stuff moreso than people who don't because we are aware
| of the concept of choice more.
|
| But what about when it's your credit account that is sabotaging
| you by design? Can't cancel the account unless you call a phone
| number and talk to somebody. But if you want to increase your
| credit limit, you can just click a button on the website and
| validate how much you make a year and boom, you have a $7000
| limit when you get $900 a month.
|
| So if you have a phone phobia and an issue with impulse control
| and you maybe stress spend, you now have a system totally against
| you by design.
|
| It's great to explore the world as someone with visible
| disabilities. Also do so with neurodivergence.
| sergioisidoro wrote:
| I'm skeptical about calling it a disability, because a lot of
| these mechanisms and dark patterns are made to prey on
| everyone's nature.
|
| Some people may more susceptible to those stimuli, but I don't
| see it a disability, but as natural neurodiversity.
|
| These are plainly predatory and unethical marketing practices,
| for everyone!
| Retric wrote:
| Pay to win video games really are ultimately targeting a
| small demographic as a tiny percentage of the audience
| results in the majority of their income.
|
| The thing is they don't know who specifically is vulnerable
| ahead of time, so they cast a wide net.
| coldtea wrote:
| Neurodiversity is a nicer sounding term, to mask the fact
| that underneath there are certain life affecting disabilities
| - often severely life affecting (if it was just harmless
| "natural neurodiversity", it wouldn't translate to reduced
| life expectancy. Not to mention millions of cases which need
| constant assistance to make it througn everyday life).
|
| That it also targets "everyone's nature" doesn't mean it's
| not a bigger issue for people with certain neurodiversities
| affecting impulse control more. Same way a badly maintained
| road might also inconvenience a perfectly abled walker, but
| it is far more burdensome to a disabled person.
| adroniser wrote:
| The reason for the low life expectancy of autism for
| instance is suicide.
| coldtea wrote:
| It's lower even accounting for suicide already.
|
| There are lots of other issues, like losing supporting
| parents and family, lack of a support network of friends,
| lack of job opportunities and bad work careers, issues
| with pursuing healthcare and maintaining health and lack
| of access to healthcare, and so on.
| adroniser wrote:
| These are all systemic issues though are they not? You
| could make all of these same arguments about gay people
| back in the 80s. Yes even the healthcare one. That
| doesn't mean that being gay isn't a natural variation in
| sexual orientation just as being autistic is a natural
| variation in brain structure.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _These are all systemic issues though are they not?_
|
| Only in the sense that the system doesn't provide extra
| accomondations. Not in the sense of active purposeful
| systemic opression (unlike say with blacks or gays).
|
| > _That doesn 't mean that being gay isn't a natural
| variation in sexual orientation just as being autistic is
| a natural variation in brain structure._
|
| I wouldn't say it's "just as". Being gay doesn'r bring
| any special impairement in sensory processing, social
| understanding, proprioception, speech, and so on. It only
| affects individuals because of morality / prejudice.
|
| Whereas being autistic, especially of high support needs,
| means major sensitivity issues, issues with
| communication, problems coping with changes to routine,
| sometimes even inability to speak at all, meltdowns, and
| other issues, which impact the person, and need to be
| catered and attended, and even when perfectly catered,
| still cause issues (a school or office can accomondate
| for sensory issues, but we can't remove noise and light
| and other sensations from the world).
|
| Saying it's a "natural variation" begs the question.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > if it was just harmless "natural neurodiversity", it
| wouldn't translate to reduced life expectancy.
|
| Without disagreeing that the space of neurodivergence
| _includes_ some life affecting disabilities, this
| generalization would also prove that race is not just
| harmless "natural diversity" but that being of a non-
| dominant race is also a "life affecting disability". There
| are other explanations for correlation with reduced life
| expectancy than individual disability.
| coldtea wrote:
| The mechanism doesn't have to be genetic/physiological.
| Social or behavioral disavantages caused or attenuated by
| the disability, still means the disability is not
| harmless.
| HumblyTossed wrote:
| Respectfully, you are not trauma informed if you feel this
| way. Plenty of kids in foster care who have been traumatized
| by bios have impulse control issues due to their mal-
| developed amygdala.
| DoughnutHole wrote:
| Whether or not something is considered a disability is really
| matter of severity. I believe this applies to both physical
| and mental conditions.
|
| If someone has reduced mobility in their arm due to some past
| injury that might not be considered a disability if its
| impact on their life is low. If that impairment is so severe
| that they have functionally lost use of that arm then it
| could easily be considered such.
|
| I don't consider my ADHD a disability, but it is an
| impairment with regards to impulse control. But someone
| else's condition could be much more severe. Someone with
| bipolar disorder or manic depression can easily go through a
| bout of extreme suggestibility which can wreak absolute havoc
| on their life.
|
| Categorising many mental disorders as harmless
| "neurodiversity" feels like a form of forced positivity
| imposed to alleviate the stigma of some disorders at the cost
| of dismissing the serious impairments inherent to others.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| I'm am bipolar and neurodivergent doesn't even scratch the
| surface. Hypomanic episodes are expensive because I have
| barely any impulse control. No amount of defense in depth
| can stop me from getting access to money. I have to use a
| different strategy:
|
| I prepare for these episodes months in advance.
|
| I needed a new car, so I set myself up to be fixated on a
| new Prius when the episode got bad. Nothing less than new
| would do because I wouldn't have the presence of mind to
| vet a used one.
|
| This put a hard limit on the financial damage. The highest
| trim Prius with all of the options is cheaper that many
| other cars I could have bought.
|
| The end result was a car $10,000 over my maximum budget. It
| has far too many buttons, but it didn't ruin me and I love
| the car. All in all, a successfully managed episode.
|
| This is one of _hundreds_ of problems I deal with and plan
| for.
| joker_minmax wrote:
| This also ties into a problem with usability in general. I
| don't need an impulse control issue to accidentally click ads
| or accidentally allow notifications on websites. But clicking
| the wrong thing could cause huge problems in anyone's life when
| things are made near impossible to use for anyone without 20/20
| vision and years of experience. That's why it's so difficult
| for elderly people to use these things - even Google Chrome now
| is a nightmare without even going onto a website. But oops now
| you're subscribed or scammed.
| Khelavaster wrote:
| It's a little obtuse to "pretend to be deaf" and not use text
| relay...
| [deleted]
| OJFord wrote:
| He was pretending to be dumb, not deaf, but yes seems that
| should still work and realistically what you'd do.
|
| I can understand not taking pretending as far as using a
| wheelchair though, seems you could too easily end up in
| situations where you have to try to explain No no I'm on the
| side of people with disabilities, I'm not taking the piss, etc.
| Karunamon wrote:
| This struck me as well. Not using the service whose entire
| reason for existence is "sometimes you _need_ to use the phone
| and there are no equivalent options " seems like a self-own
| unless I am missing something.
|
| At least in the United States there are various apps and sites
| you can use that are free that will provide relay services. I
| had to avail myself of this a few times when some respiratory
| bug made me impossible to understand speaking but I could still
| type.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| The UK has this app: https://www.relayuk.bt.com/
|
| Seems free and easy to use, for both deaf people and people
| who can't use their phone. Available though smartphones or
| dedicated devices.
|
| I think it's completely fair to expect someone to use this
| service for the occasional phone call.
| mistercow wrote:
| They didn't pretend to be deaf. They pretended to have a speech
| disorder that prevented them from using their voice.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| Correct, but such a person would normally still have/use text
| relay.
| catchnear4321 wrote:
| like a chat widget on a web page?
|
| the companies could take the burden here. it isn't that
| difficult.
| [deleted]
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| No, it really isn't.
|
| I mean, I woke up one day and was half blind. Well, I could see
| out of my left eye, but it was all a blur. "Yes, I know that's
| a big E at the top of the eye chart, but it is a dark and light
| blur".
|
| I've had both hands go numb. I could use them, mostly, but had
| to look at them to properly wash bread dough off of my hands. I
| couldn't feel it.
|
| These things mostly got better after some time - I have MS, you
| see. It wouldn't be realistic to think that I could wake up and
| not be able to use my voice effectively or have some sort of
| hearing problem. Or not be able to walk well. Or a number of
| different things. And at least at first, I'd not think to use
| text relay either. I might not think about it for a few weeks -
| it might get better, after all. In the meantime, I'd be getting
| increasingly frustrated at society.
| Rhapso wrote:
| Wait until you find out 20% of the deaf are illiterate. Want to
| make the world more accessible, learn ASL and see to it the
| education and healthcare systems get real funding.
|
| *Ironic typo mention below is fixed.
| slater wrote:
| illerate, ey? /s
| YurgenJurgensen wrote:
| Learning 'American' sign language won't make the 'world' more
| accessible. Most deaf people aren't American.
| Rhapso wrote:
| Well the competitor is Chinese sign language and the
| Chinese government claims there are 4 million fluent
| signers of it. (Which would be the overwhelming majority of
| people who sign on the planet if it is true) so if you want
| to improve your raw odds of helping use that.
|
| Yes, I failed to be inclusive of other sign languages.
| Learn the sign language that makes sense for your culture
| and environment, but learn a sign language!
| joker_minmax wrote:
| I think the obvious solution here is to have sign language
| fluency be encouraged in whatever country you particularly
| live in. I think that person meant "world" as a figure of
| speech.
| techsupporter wrote:
| That's true for the entire language but, like a lot of
| other languages, there is significant overlap. For example,
| the American in American Sign Language means North
| American; it is the predominant manual language in Canada
| and the United States and has fairly wide acceptance in
| Mexico.
|
| ASL is based on LSF, or French Sign Language, because of a
| long history (more or less involving the person with the
| last name Gallaudet) but the main point is that a _lot_ of
| sign languages descend from LSF. Much like how someone who
| only knows English can go to Germany or France or Italy and
| make out some of the basic words, the overlap between LSF
| descendants is pretty good for basic or everyday use. I 'm
| semi-fluent in ASL and I've successfully communicated with
| people who use Irish Sign Language and German Sign Language
| (DGS).
|
| The big stand-out is British Sign Language, or BSL. BSL's
| manual alphabet and root signs are dramatically different
| from LSF. (Since a lot of ASL words are initialized
| motions, like taking the first letter of the English or
| French word and using that handshape sign in a motion, BSL
| doesn't translate as quickly.)
| hereforthecake2 wrote:
| > Wait until you find out 20% of the deaf are illerate
|
| Or that the average reading level of people that are deaf in
| the US in 4th grade.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| The median US adult only reads at an 8th grade level, so
| that's actually not terribly surprising.
| throw9away6 wrote:
| I feel like things have gotten way worse in the last 4 years.
| Everyone has eliminated the human assistance so if your problem
| cannot be solved by the standard flow you are out of luck. Many
| places won't pick up the phone, there is no way to escalate to a
| human. If you are disabled you are just a cost center and nobody
| will bother with you at all.
| Calavar wrote:
| Maybe a minority opinion here, but I find the idea of trying to
| see what it's like to live with a disability first hand without
| taking a minimum effort to understand the nature of the
| disability or how people with that disability typically deal with
| it is at best an exercise of very limited worth and and worst
| moderately offensive.
|
| The author quotes a statistic that 10% of the UK have speech
| difficulties. Does he believe that 1 out of 10 Brits is
| completely unable to hold a phone conversation? If not, then why
| is this the way he chooses to explore the disability? Assuming
| that he specifically wants to explore aphasia/dysarthria, did he
| ask an aphasic or dysarthric person how they approach having to
| make a phone call? If his goal is to truly understand the
| experience of living with their disability, how can he do that
| without approaching things the same way they do? Did he do the
| research to see that aphasia and dysarthria are disabilities that
| rarely occur in isolation? Because I don't see any discussion of
| that, and again, how can you understand the experience of an
| aphasic or dysarthric person without understanding the other
| disabilities that the average aphasic person also deals with?
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| I'm of the same opinion. The author has no freaking clue. I
| broke my ankle in high school and I got zero support. All of
| the classes were on the third floor and the cafeteria was in
| the basement.
|
| 1. There was no elevator in the building. I had to use crutches
| to get up the stairs while carrying all of my textbooks.
|
| 2. I was required to attend gym class on the second floor of
| another building (no elevator) and change clothes in a room
| with no chairs or benches. Then I would sit in a chair while
| everyone did the assigned activities.
|
| 3. I was required to eat lunch in the cafeteria. I wasn't given
| extra time. Occasionally there wouldn't be enough food and I
| would get a single peanut butter sandwich while others had gone
| through the line twice before I got there.
|
| 4. I was late to every class and everyone watched me while the
| teacher waited for me to get to an assigned seat down a narrow
| isle.
|
| 5. I wasn't given extra time to get to the bus after school. So
| I had to wait in detention for my mom to drive from work if I
| missed the bus.
|
| 6. Oh, I forgot, the second to last class of my day was on a
| different floor. So I had to go down and back up the stairs.
|
| I forgot how many weeks this went on until I had a walking
| cast. The whole thing lasted 8 weeks.
|
| The best part, I broke my ankle in gym class because I got
| tripped and knocked sideways during basketball. They called my
| mom to pick me up instead of calling an ambulance.
| arp242 wrote:
| John from Virgin Media probably isn't a bad person, or
| unsympathetic to Terence's plight, but in his job there is almost
| certainly nothing he's able to do: _The System(tm)_ just wasn 't
| designed for it and he can't make an exception.
|
| I feel we've lost some things by introducing computerized systems
| everywhere. Everything is now neatly boxed off and as soon as you
| want something nonstandard - no matter how much sense it makes -
| it's "computer says no" everywhere.
|
| It's frustrating and humiliating for Terence, but _also_ for
| John, who has to helplessly see someone in a difficult situation.
| Actually caring about Terence and the people like him he deals
| with every day would destroy John emotionally, so he does the
| only thing he can: not care. Which is "merely" corrosive, but at
| least doesn't destroy him.
|
| ---
|
| Last year I had a somewhat similar situation: after flying to
| Amsterdam I managed to just catch a train with a bit of a sprint.
| The bloke after me was in a wheelchair, but the train was about
| to leave and the conductor was on his own (with me, freshly
| arrived in the vestibule just on time).
|
| There's a gap between the train and platform so wheelchair users
| can't "just" board and the conductor couldn't lift him on board
| on his own. I naturally offered to help, as most people would,
| but was immediately rebuffed by the conductor. Since the train
| was already late it couldn't wait for another employee to arrive,
| so it just left, leaving the guy behind - the next train was an
| hour later.
|
| After the train left I chatted a bit with the conductor and he
| explained he couldn't accept my help for insurance reasons, and
| that it wasn't "responsible" to accept help from random
| strangers.
|
| On one hand, I can understand that, I guess... But on the other
| hand: what the actual fuck? How is this now considered acceptable
| in our society? I can't help but feel we've created a system
| where our humanity has been systemically stripped from us, and
| that this has become so normalized we don't even realize it.
|
| ---
|
| This affects everyone outside "the happy path"; homeless people
| are another classic example. People say "get a job" but this
| isn't easy without a fixed address, and renting something without
| a job is often impossible (even IF you actually have money), and
| you usually also can't get paid without a bank account, but
| getting an account requires a fixed address, etc. etc. There's
| all sorts of catch-22s - sometimes special systems exist to deal
| with this, but they're bandaids on top of a broken system and
| certainly in some countries "homeless" is so narrowly defined
| that it excludes huge swaths of homeless people.
| isykt wrote:
| Accessibility seems to be a blind spot for most in tech because
| we don't think disability will happen to us, or if it does, it
| will be a long time from now.
|
| What people often don't consider is that even if that is true,
| the likelihood that you will care for someone with a disability
| -- an aging parent, a spouse, or a child - increases the
| likelihood of lack of accessibility impacting your ability to
| enjoy your (shared) life.
|
| My partner had a stroke. They can no longer walk steadily, and
| they likely never will. The number of times a certain thing we
| wanted to do went from idea to "guess not" is now incalculable.
| The logistics just become too onerous... and we're lucky. We are
| high earners in a developed city.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| >Accessibility seems to be a blind spot for most in tech
| because we don't think disability will happen to us
|
| Which is particularly silly because 1/2 of people end up with
| presbyopia (far-sighted). My older eyes are often frustrated
| with tech choices made by web/app designers half my age.
| hereforthecake2 wrote:
| > What people often don't consider is that even if that is
| true, the likelihood that you will care for someone with a
| disability -- an aging parent, a spouse, or a child - increases
| the likelihood of lack of accessibility impacting your ability
| to enjoy your (shared) life.
|
| Yes. Many many many people don't realize that their future
| holds experience with disabilities.
|
| And wait until they have to deal with the young tech people
| calling all the shots on how products look, change, evolve,
| etc. This idea that we should constantly be updating our UI,
| workflows, and shoving new features in front of users as a way
| to push people to expand (and spend more) of what they do has
| created such a huge problem in our family for our aging
| relatives. We've had to constantly shift which tech we use to
| find stuff that's going to be the most simple and easy to help
| through through while on the phone.
| ModernMech wrote:
| Heck, it's already catching up with me in subtle ways. For
| instance, scroll bars constantly mess me up because they keep
| making such low contrast between the slider and the
| background (I don't know the technical terms). So sometimes I
| can't even see where I am on the page without scrolling to
| see the slider move. But lately when the slider is small
| enough, I can't even see it when I'm moving the page! It's
| practically invisible to me.
|
| Like, why does it have to be light gray on slightly lighter
| gray? Whose 20 year old eyeballs decided on this?
| TheCowboy wrote:
| This lack of contrast can be annoying. It can sometimes be
| remedied on our end by playing with non-obvious graphics
| settings or monitor settings. But it's unfortunately not
| always as simple as adjusting the contrast.
|
| You can also point out that this is an issue with photos
| and people will act like you're using trash hardware even
| if you aren't (had this issue with my nicest monitor, while
| the cheaper displays were fine). And they really should be
| also designing for non-premium displays, or displays being
| used in extremely bright, or extremely dark settings, etc.
| TheNewsIsHere wrote:
| I'm with you. I've spent a huge amount of my time working
| with older folks in particular, and the complaints about
| change have essentially shifted from
| $every_major_release_or_two to, we'll, every release. My
| grandparents started shopping online during the pandemic
| and every week they had a new complaint about some change
| on the site. (I saw most of those changes and they
| certainly weren't user-friendly!)
|
| I've felt myself being able to relate more and more. I have
| a lot more work on my plate now that requires synthesizing
| previous experience and existing expertise, and that is
| challenging to do when entire teams at virtually every
| vendor seem to exist solely to implement changes for the
| sake of changes. Software moves fast these days and that
| can be fine, but it doesn't seem like all that velocity is
| really genuine in the UX space.
|
| My experience isn't everyone's experience of course, but
| requiring that _everyone_ learn new ways of interacting
| with essentially every product regularly, makes me feel
| like it's just busy work to keep up with the proverbial
| software UX Joneses. (And everything looks the same now, so
| I'm not sure that's the hottest take around...)
| arp242 wrote:
| > Like, why does it have to be light gray on slightly
| lighter gray? Whose 20 year old eyeballs decided on this?
|
| "It looks fine on my 32" 8K screen in perfect light
| conditions 60 centimetres from my face - what are you
| complaining about?"
|
| I really think lots of people should just use EUR400 low-
| end hardware, as that's representative of what people
| actually use, and all these kind of problems will stand out
| much sooner.
| isykt wrote:
| The only solution, dear reader, if you make it this far, is
| that you -- not metaphorically but literally, you, the abled
| reader - must advocate loudly for accessibility. Even when
| it's annoying. Even when it's more work on top of your
| already huge pile of work. You're not advocating for an
| abstract other. You're advocating for your future self.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Yeah this blows my mind when working with other tech people.
| None of y'all ever broke a hand? Smashed a fingernail in a door
| or burned your thumb cooking? Noticed how hard it us to use the
| computer or shit even open a rounded doorknob sometimes?
|
| Being fully able-bodied is barely even the baseline state, even
| for "able bodied" people. Temporary changes to that state have
| been common in my life and the lives of the people I am closest
| too, and it's always obvious how poorly the world is suited to
| those deviations. And also clear how small and cheap many of
| the changes would be to improve it.
|
| If all goes well, you _will_ be disabled for the final years of
| your life, we all will, and more than a small handful of years
| too. It is life why don 't we plan for it, build our world for
| it?
| guerrilla wrote:
| > Accessibility seems to be a blind spot for most in tech
| because we don't think disability will happen to us, or if it
| does, it will be a long time from now.
|
| This goes for everything. People don't realize that the golden
| rule is in their own self-interest and they're often harming
| themselves when they work against things like welfare and other
| protections.
| anotheruser13 wrote:
| Helps explain MAGAts.
| dheera wrote:
| > Terence: If I want to cancel my account (without using the
| phone) what can I do?
|
| > John: the only option though is by calling .
|
| Comcast told me this exact same thing but I just told them that
| section 9(a) of their Xfinity Residential Services Agreement
| allows for termination by e-mail and that I was providing the
| agreed notice and will withhold payments effective immediately.
| They shut up after that.
|
| I'm not deaf but I've claimed to be on multiple occasions to
| avoid dealing with a customer service phone call. They want me on
| the phone? Pay me for my lost hours.
| jacknews wrote:
| No doubt there are real issues with the way society is (not)
| designed to accommodate the less able, but this sortie seems to
| me to involve quite a bit of provocation and 'fake outrage'. For
| one thing, people are fairly sensitive to trolling atempts these
| days, so merely 'pretending' is maybe not good enough.
| FigurativeVoid wrote:
| I used to date a person who needed to use a wheelchair from time
| to time. Not only is the world inaccessible, but there are so
| many grandfathering rules that most places don't have to change.
|
| Something this article misses is that many people act totally
| inappropriately to people using various aids. They used to have
| people question why they needed a chair. They had people call
| them wheels in public.
| IshKebab wrote:
| The thing I've noticed in the UK with a buggy is the insane
| lack of dropped kerbs. Why? Does it really cost a lot more to
| have a slightly different shaped kerb?
|
| They also seem to have a terrible habit of putting them in the
| inconvenient places that they _want_ you to walk, not where
| people _actually_ walk. E.g. set back 10m from a t-junction. So
| even if there _are_ dropped kerbs it 's still significantly
| more inconvenient if you actually have to use them.
| rdtsc wrote:
| > there are so many grandfathering rules that most places don't
| have to change.
|
| Indeed. It's especially hard in a poor areas. I used to live
| with a disabled person and things like cracks in the sidewalk,
| or bumps from roots, or potholes, look like nothing to people
| who can walk. To someone in a wheelchair they can prevent them
| from going through. They city was too poor and run down to get
| to it. Older parts of town, are also almost impossible to
| access.
|
| > They used to have people question why they needed a chair.
| They had people call them wheels in public.
|
| I noticed this is at the airport. People in a wheelchair often
| get priority sitting. But to request a wheelchair doesn't
| require any proof. So, people learned to take advantage of it.
| May even get an assistant to push them around the airport. And
| then, as soon as the flight lands, people are miraculously
| "healed" and don't need a wheelchair any longer.
|
| They think it's a harmless thing: "it's allowed anyway", "I
| paid a lot of money for this ticket", "not breaking any rules",
| etc but what they are doing is they are creating animosity and
| suspicion in the general public who now feel anyone in a
| wheelchair in the airport is "cheating" to get ahead of the
| line and get a better spot for their carry-on luggage.
| okaram wrote:
| A lot of people cheat, but you also need to keep in mind most
| disabilities are not binary, but have degrees.
|
| Many people may be able to get up the wheelchair and walk a
| little, but may not be able to walk a mile in the airport...
| Or may not be able to navigate the complicated airport
| environment.
| FigurativeVoid wrote:
| I wouldn't even say a lot of people cheat. There are a few,
| but it is the vast minority.
| oaththrowaway wrote:
| When I was a teenager my grandmother lived with us for a few
| years because she was unable to care for herself. Once we
| went to a museum as a family and my parents sent me and my
| brother to get a wheelchair for my grandma. When we found one
| I got in and had my brother push me. As a joke he started
| running and let go and I flew off the curb and crashed into
| the parking lot.
|
| A lot of people rushed over to help and were quite upset when
| I hopped up and ran off with the wheelchair.
| Zak wrote:
| > _as soon as the flight lands, people are miraculously
| "healed" and don't need a wheelchair any longer_
|
| The comment you're replying to talks about someone needing a
| wheelchair _from time to time_. Many people who use
| wheelchairs do not need them all the time.
|
| A trivial example would be someone who can walk from the
| airport to a car when unburdened, but cannot stand in line
| for an hour while carrying luggage. The available assistance
| isn't necessarily individually tailored, so "I need to check
| a bag without extra charge and skip the security and boarding
| lines" is not an option, but a wheelchair is.
| currymj wrote:
| I know someone who did what you describe, but in her case it
| was legitimate. She could walk, though slowly, but had great
| difficulty with ramps and stairs, and would be in pain for a
| couple days after standing for a long time, so genuinely
| needs help to get through airports.
| jrmg wrote:
| Yes, me too. You should not assume someone who seems able
| to stand and walk unaided is not in need of assistance for
| longer periods. It can be a matter of scale, and there can
| be sudden tipping points.
|
| The person I know is perfectly able to stand for a short
| while, or walk around a shop or food court for a couple of
| minutes carrying items with really no obvious problems. But
| navigating an airport all the way through, quickly making
| it to a connecting flight on the other side of a large
| terminal, or standing for minutes in a check-in line is
| basically impossible without days of pain afterwards.
| drewcoo wrote:
| > they are creating animosity and suspicion in the general
| public who now feel anyone in a wheelchair in the airport is
| "cheating"
|
| No. The faceless people who wrote the crap rules are doing
| that. Blaming people who use the system to their advantage
| doesn't fix the system.
| robbie-c wrote:
| I broke my toe just before flying from Portugal to London. I
| had crutches and was given a wheelchair in the airport. I
| technically could have walked, it just would have been
| extremely painful. When the staff at Luton told me that it'd
| be an hour before the passenger lift was ready, I decided
| "fuck it" and that I would walk down the stairs instead. One
| of the other passengers accused me of faking the whole thing,
| but I can assure you that I was not.
| joker_minmax wrote:
| I mention this in my comment too - sexual harassment about the
| wheelchair I've seen in person.
| [deleted]
| omeid2 wrote:
| As bad as it seems, without grandfathering, very few of such
| accessibility laws would ever make it.
|
| Consider that accessibility is a quality of life concern, when
| governments have to consider the cost of everything, even the
| "reasonable" cost of averting death.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life
| jsnell wrote:
| Most of the example challenges feel pretty odd.
|
| > Go a couple of weeks without using the phone. Which services
| are closed off to you?
|
| I think I've called a service provider of any kind once in the
| last five years. It didn't actually get me anything that text
| comms would not have.
|
| > Tell people you need an accessible venue for your meetings. How
| do they respond?
|
| The last time I spoke at a venue was like 8 years ago. The author
| doing it multiple times in a random week seems like quite an
| outlier.
|
| > Switch on subtitles and mute your favourite shows. Do they even
| have subtitles? What do you miss?
|
| I always have subtitles on in any TV show, streaming show,
| YouTube, etc. I can't even think of the last time it wasn't an
| option. (The subtitles for the news have a 15 second delay due to
| it being a real-time broadcast, which is a bit distracting but
| acceptable.)
| hereforthecake2 wrote:
| > I think I've called a service provider of any kind once in
| the last five years. It didn't actually get me anything that
| text comms would not have.
|
| It sounds like what you are implying is that because you
| haven't experienced it in a 5 year period, someone who lives
| their entire life like this must not experience this as well?
| Even though you are presented with data saying otherwise?
| jsnell wrote:
| No, I'm implying nothing like that.
|
| The challenge the author set was to go without a phone for a
| "couple of weeks", not "for your entire life". For that to be
| a useful challenge and build empathy as is the goal, the
| people taking the challenge need to be put into a position
| where they _must_ make a phone call at least once in those
| two weeks. Otherwise it does nothing at all.
|
| The author appears to be upgrading their internet connection,
| moving, and arranging financing for a house in their totally
| normal week. For them, it is a useful challenge. But for my
| phone use patterns it is utterly useless. I'd need to run the
| experiment for a decade.
|
| But thanks a lot for telling me that my lived experience is
| invalid and disproven by "data".
| dkarl wrote:
| I've had to use the phone quite a bit in the last year.
| Airlines and travel companies are especially bad about only
| supporting happy-path functionality online and then providing
| an excruciatingly bad phone experience if something gets off-
| track.
|
| The pharmacy that I use has a very busy and probably very
| expensive web site, but it has bugs, and any time you get off
| the happy path, you have to call. For example, when I get a
| prescription delivered for my brother-in-law (who has
| disabilities and lives with us) the pharmacy only gives the
| name on the credit card to the delivery driver (this is a known
| bug, for over a year) so the driver shows up and asks for the
| wrong name. Usually the pharmacist figures this out and gives
| them the right prescription, but if they don't, the
| prescription goes into a black hole. It can't be picked up at
| the pharmacy, it can't be scheduled for delivery again, nothing
| can happen until I call and get it fixed.
|
| Helping my mother set up online access to her pension, the only
| way they will grant her access is if they call her at a certain
| number and she answers the phone.
|
| I can't think of any other examples off the top of my head, but
| I despise talking on the phone and will go to great lengths to
| avoid it, and yet I have to do it maddeningly often.
| Zak wrote:
| > _Airlines and travel companies_
|
| I actually found Twitter DM, of all things to be the most
| effective way to get customer service from United Airlines. I
| don't know if this is still the case given Twitter's recent
| decline.
| alex_suzuki wrote:
| Anecdotal, but I have also found Twitter DM to be a highly
| successful communication channel when you need support. I'm
| assuming that a) it's the fear of being publicly shamed and
| b) it's a channel that's not made completely unusable
| through some kind of helpdesk software.
| Zak wrote:
| Complaining about corporations in public posts is all
| I've ever used Twitter for. It sometimes results in
| better support channels than the default.
| edent wrote:
| Hi, I wrote the article 4 years ago. So, slightly within your 5
| years timeframe.
|
| There are still plenty of services in the UK which are only
| available by voice.
|
| I may be "an outlier" but it was my lived reality. At the time
| I was travelling to and speaking at multiple events per week.
| Why should I be able to do that when others are prevented?
|
| In the last 4 years the situation with subtitles has improved
| slightly. But there are still plenty of shows on Netflix and
| Apple+ with no subtitles or - perhaps worse - shitty subtitles.
|
| I'm really pleased that you haven't experienced any of these
| barriers. Can I please encourage you to find something that you
| think might be a challenge and spend a few weeks building up
| your empathy?
| navjack27 wrote:
| So just because you could argue about all of these, they are
| all invalid?
| jsnell wrote:
| I did not use the word "invalid", or anything like that.
| You've made that up.
|
| The author seems to think that this list is compelling, and
| that people will find it incredibly hard to do these
| challenges. But at least half the list is describing stuff
| that I know with certainty would be no trouble because it is
| either stuff I already do all the time, or has boundary
| conditions that have a <<1% chance of triggering. That's a
| lot more than "could argue".
|
| So the list seems pretty bad, and I would suggest would not
| actually have the effect the author suggests of building
| empathy.
| mitthrowaway2 wrote:
| For some reason Crave in Canada on AppleTV seems to have no
| subtitles whatsoever. I can't understand why.
| chronicsonic wrote:
| This might be related to Apple, normally Apple is very good
| for accessibility, but even the BBC has challenges with
| subtitles on AppleTV, same with the Dutch NPO TV:
|
| "Why are there no subtitles on BBC iPlayer via Apple TV?
|
| There are technical challenges associated with delivering
| subtitles to Apple TV which will require a significantly
| different solution to that which we use on all other
| platforms. We are working towards it but don't currently have
| timelines associated with this support."
|
| Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/help/questions/accessib
| ility/a...
| mitthrowaway2 wrote:
| Makes sense, but it's clear that we still don't live in a
| world of fully ubiquitous subtitle accessibility, which can
| cause trouble both for the hard of hearing and for those
| with English as a second language.
|
| Likewise, subtitles usually are not available at theatres,
| public screenings, and other venues.
| joker_minmax wrote:
| I do think this is important as an awareness exercise, however,
| it is worth noting that a lot of the issues CANNOT be seen unless
| you actually do bring the wheelchair. I learned this in 2018 when
| as a student I attended a conference with a fellow disabled
| student in Chicago. I was responsible for pushing her (she could
| use her arms but it was faster to navigate the city if one of us
| pushed). Not all train stations have a wide enough platform for
| wheelchairs to roll across, so your mobility is limited by which
| stations you can use for the train, which means walking farther
| from the station to where you actually wanted to go. Accessible
| hotel room with a pushbutton door shut too quickly for her to get
| into the threshold. Thankfully one of us was there to hit the
| button again each time she needed it reopened, but sometimes you
| had to physically catch and push the (heavier than normal) door
| before the button would re-open it. If you were just "thinking"
| about being a wheelchair user, and not actually trying to
| navigate this, you would not have a sense of the timing of this
| door. Another complication was her foot in a cast sticking out.
| The lovely, welcoming residents of Chicago catcalled her using
| wheelchair-related phrases, one guy on the train pointed at her
| and told her to kill herself, and someone kicked her cast in a
| crowd. The general attitude toward the disabled, in that
| environment, is unkind at best.
|
| When I was a child (in the US), the science museum in my hometown
| had an exhibit dedicated to the ADA. You got into a wheelchair
| and tried to do tasks. It showed how payphones at a certain
| height are too high to reach, how difficult it would be to go up
| a ramp with an unapproved slope, etc. I wonder if it's still
| there, because that was my first foray into thinking this way.
| The Chicago trip however, basically radicalized me.
|
| The article has a reference point of the UK and I don't know what
| their laws are with regards to accessibility. But it's clear that
| in both countries public attitudes toward accessibility have a
| very long way to go. And I'm sure most other countries can say
| this as well.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > The lovely, welcoming residents of Chicago catcalled her
| using wheelchair-related phrases, one guy on the train pointed
| at her and told her to kill herself, and someone kicked her
| cast in a crowd.
|
| That's beyond bad, and makes me feel sick.
| vkou wrote:
| > The lovely, welcoming residents of Chicago catcalled her
| using wheelchair-related phrases, one guy on the train pointed
| at her and told her to kill herself, and someone kicked her
| cast in a crowd.
|
| This is so utterly farcical and disguisting that people will
| swear until they are black and blue that you are making this
| up.
|
| Of course, some of the people making that argument would, with
| the shield of being a face in a crowd, without a shred of irony
| and self-awareness, behave in _that exact same way_.
|
| It's really, really bloody sad.
| joker_minmax wrote:
| The guy who told her to die was definitely on drugs and
| absolutely wired. Which there are bound to be some characters
| that way in a large city. The others I can't say, they were
| basically normal passers-by with no abnormal demeanor prior
| to being cruel.
| rcme wrote:
| I think this has nothing to do with being handicapped and
| everything to do with the fact that the cta allows citizens
| to be assaulted every day by allowing crazy people to squat
| in trains. Plenty of able-bodied people have horror
| stories.
| vkou wrote:
| It's incredibly ironic how you read the actual horror
| story, and respond by trying to turn this into blaming a
| pet issue. "It's the bad _others_ , it's not 'normal'[1]
| people that are behaving poorly."
|
| ---
|
| [1] Despite the OP _explicitly_ stating that a
| significant part of the abuse did not come from 'Crazies
| squatting on trains.'
| tehwebguy wrote:
| Brutal. Referring back to this comment the next time folks here
| are indignant about ADA private right of action.
| blahedo wrote:
| > _in Chicago. ..._
|
| And the sad thing is, in this respect Chicago is less bad than
| a lot of other towns and cities in the US and _way_ less bad
| than many (most?) cities in other countries, including many
| that are much more progressive than the US. Chicago has been
| working on curb cuts for years and is in the midst of a years-
| long quest to upgrade all El (metro /subway) platforms for
| accessibility, and the ADA---33 years old---has much stronger
| requirements than, as far as I can tell, even current
| legislation elsewhere. In Canada, France, Spain, Germany I've
| seen whole rows of storefronts that are a half-storey up or
| down from street level, curb cuts are rare, and it's more usual
| for stores and other business to have steps than not. In other
| realms of accessibility, I've also noticed a lot more Braille
| and/or headphone access on ATMs and public kiosks in the US,
| and fire alarms that are rigged with lights as well as sound.
|
| It's not a perfect mechanism, and the US gets a _lot_ of other
| things wrong, but the ADA is something we got really, really on
| the right track (and keep improving).
| joker_minmax wrote:
| Well the old famous pizza places are not accessible in the
| slightest. Basically anything super freaking old is a lost
| cause unless you magically have room to make the bathrooms
| bigger or put an extension on the storefront, etc. I'm from
| the South, and it also shocked me how cars in Chicago would
| basically inch directly up to where you're walking, like
| they're just gonna run over you if you stopped, even if
| pedestrians technically have the green to cross. And they
| could see we were going slower because we're pushing a
| wheelchair! People talk crap on the South and how we drive,
| but at least we usually slow down when someone is crossing.
| (I can't vouch for Florida, but most of Florida doesn't count
| as Southern anyway.)
|
| It's easy to take the braille in elevators or lights on fire
| alarms for granted, but thanks for pointing out how good it
| is that we have them.
| tssva wrote:
| > and it also shocked me how cars in Chicago would
| basically inch directly up to where you're walking, like
| they're just gonna run over you if you stopped, even if
| pedestrians technically have the green to cross.
|
| I just spent the last week in downtown Chicago and in this
| regard I didn't find it any worse than the downtown areas
| of other major cities. Not saying it is acceptable but
| Chicago is not an outlier.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| A lot of this is undone by unofficially allowing parking in
| crosswalks and other routine "transgressions". The cutouts
| don't matter when there's a car over it. So many groups are
| affected by this other than wheelchair users too: parents
| with strollers, elderly or disabled with walkers or who
| simply can't lift their foot high enough to step onto a curb,
| young children on balance bikes or skates.
|
| The enforcement mechanism of ADA being, literally, "sue us"
| is an absolutely massive barrier that makes its practical
| efficacy a fraction of what you'd think it is based on
| reading the rules.
| neltnerb wrote:
| I have spent four years, typically ~2 months a year between
| first complaint and it actually getting acted upon, getting
| Somerville to cut overgrowth from its own construction site
| that completely block a sidewalk that is used by hundreds
| of people per day (there is no sidewalk at all on the other
| side).
|
| You couldn't use the sidewalk anyway as it is not ADA
| compliant in the slightest (random light posts in the
| middle of a half width sidewalk with tons of cracks and
| holes). But at least it should be vaguely passable...
|
| Meanwhile literally 100 feet away they managed to redesign
| and repave an entire highway onramp without hiring a
| groundskeeper for their own property.
|
| I hate having to bring up the ADA as the reason the city
| should respect pedestrians. They spent how much money on
| that highway onramp but can't be bothered to make the
| frontage on property it owns usable by pedestrians?
| 13of40 wrote:
| > The lovely, welcoming residents of Chicago catcalled her
| using wheelchair-related phrases, one guy on the train pointed
| at her and told her to kill herself, and someone kicked her
| cast in a crowd.
|
| Dear god. My wife broke her leg about a month ago, and I've
| been pushing her in a wheelchair when we go out. The spectrum
| of reactions so far has run from a quick smile to strangers
| coming up to ask what happened and wish her well. This is in
| the eastern Seattle suburbs. WTF, people?
| wutbrodo wrote:
| I was surprised to hear GP's story about the Midwest, but not
| surprised to hear an anecdote of West Coasters being kinder
| to strangers than elsewhere.
|
| Any one of those stories is worse than anything I've
| experienced in decades of living in large California cities
| joker_minmax wrote:
| As I've said in a different reply, the KYS guy was definitely
| on drugs - his demeanor was abnormal even before he opened
| his mouth. And every city will have characters of that type.
| But the other people were just average run-of-the-mill folks
| from afar who decided to make her day worse.
| [deleted]
| ModernMech wrote:
| Yeah I used to do research on robotic wheelchairs, and as part
| of that I had to use them. Half of the "accessible" doors on
| campus where not powered, so I had to open them while sitting
| in the wheelchair. It was impossible to do without holding the
| door with my legs. And they were these big heavy doors.
|
| Then there was the elevator, which could barely fit the
| wheelchair. You can go in at juuuuust the right angle to get on
| the lift, then you had to reverse out because there was no room
| to maneuver inside. I started actually getting claustrophobic.
|
| I just couldn't see how an actual wheelchair-bound person could
| get into these buildings on a daily basis.
| joker_minmax wrote:
| Why do "accessible" doors always have to weigh so much more
| than regular doors? The powered ones are extremely difficult
| to open if the button decides to not work.
| neilv wrote:
| I live in a high-cost-of-living (HCOLA) metro area that wins
| national awards/rankings for walkability, but the narrow,
| obstructed, and often poorly-maintained sidewalks are very
| often impassable for people in wheelchairs.
|
| Even _new_ renovations and widenings, where they put in new,
| flat sidewalk that 's sufficiently wide, the concrete
| figuratively isn't even dry before they install excessive
| signposts and random street furniture, again blocking the
| sidewalk.
|
| Then there's the snow&ice, and the inadequate compliance with
| the rules about who has to shovel what, when, and how. And the
| property owners that eventually comply, are fighting the
| plowing from the streets onto the sidewalks.
|
| There's even further problems with landscaping, and sometimes
| poison ivy/oak, growing out from a residential property, to
| effectively block the narrow square of sidewalk that remains.
| Not something you want brushing or scraping across your arm or
| face as you're trying to get through and can't dodge it.
|
| Even in good weather I only rarely see people on the sidewalk
| in wheelchairs or on mobility scooters. That doesn't mean they
| don't live in town, but that the sidewalks don't let you get
| far. When I do see them (as a walker), they're usually
| operating their wheelchair or scooter _in the street_. A couple
| times, I 've had to help one who was simply stuck in the
| street. I imagine they don't feel good about it, and feel
| abandoned.
|
| I would've thought the bicyclists would have empathy and
| solidarity, at least against the cars, but there actually seems
| to be a _higher_ rate of problematic behavior there, per rider
| /driver (e.g., ignoring traffic signals at crossings, barreling
| down narrow sidewalks). And now we're getting dedicated bike
| paths often at the cost of sidewalks.
|
| One of the people in a wheelchair who got stuck in the street,
| after I helped push him out of it and to the nearby grocery
| store entrance, he held some device to his neck so that he
| could say thank you.
|
| I imagine that it was implied that this situation sucks -- and
| I'm thinking: made worse, for no good reason, in an area that
| can afford to do better -- but he's soldiering through, and
| doing what he can.
| techsupporter wrote:
| > I would've thought the bicyclists would have empathy and
| solidarity, at least against the cars ... And now we're
| getting dedicated bike paths often at the cost of sidewalks.
|
| I live in another HCOL area allegedly famed for its walking
| and biking facilities, and I hoped the same thing.
| Unfortunately, the process here seems to have turned into
| "each individual group vs car drivers", probably by design.
| For example, where I live has separate pedestrian, bicycle,
| and transit advisory boards to the city council. Never mind
| that projects should be built to benefit all three, not just
| one.
|
| What's wound up happening is, because we "obviously cannot"
| take space from car drivers, the precious little room given
| over to modes that don't involve driving are forced to
| compete with each other. A new train station was built on the
| north end of town and the former sidewalk area on one side of
| the train station has been repurposed as a bicycle-only lane.
| The other side of the street is still a pedestrian
| sidewalk...but the street itself is a four-lane thoroughfare
| with very wide lanes and a median turn lane in spots. Of
| course, narrowing the car space on that road to make the
| corridor more comfortable for people on feet _and_ on bikes
| was completely out of the question.
|
| Also, the sidewalk didn't get fully rebuilt so I routinely
| see people in wheelchairs and pushing prams on the "bicycle-
| only" side because that's much smoother and even.
| neilv wrote:
| > _Unfortunately, the process here seems to have turned
| into "each individual group vs car drivers ... where I live
| has separate pedestrian, bicycle, and transit advisory
| boards to the city council._
|
| I suspect you're right; I've seen that, but didn't realize
| at the time that it could be a barrier.
|
| I could imagine how it might be organized that way in good
| faith -- e.g., get the input from the people who really
| care about biking, the people who really care about
| walking, and the train/transportation buffs, and then have
| city officials process it all, holistically -- but that's a
| lot of heavy lifting, and also doesn't bring the advocates
| together to learn from each other and directly reconcile
| conflicts.
| dustincoates wrote:
| Having children and, thus, a stroller, has given me some small
| level of insight into what it must be to try and navigate Paris
| in a wheelchair.
|
| I can only think of one, maybe two, Metro stations that I can
| access with my youngest without carrying him. Many stores I
| would not be able to enter if I wasn't able to tip the wheels
| up. Curb cuts are routinely blocked by tourist scooters and
| anyway people often take up too much of the space on the
| sidewalk with their vehicles to get through. Add on to the fact
| that apartment stock must be 95% inaccessible if you're in a
| wheelchair.
|
| It might be why I have only twice seen someone in a wheelchair
| in my seven years here. My wife and I have discussed before
| that, as much as we love it here, we'd move out right away if
| any of us had accessibility needs.
| renox wrote:
| Yes, I'm French too and when I was on holiday in Thailand, in
| a mall I noticed that there were people in wheelchairs
| shopping, my first thought: in France they wouldn't be able
| to be here because the accomodations are so bad..
|
| It's not 100% true and it's improving but very, very slowly..
| lostlogin wrote:
| The quality of the pavement matters a lot too.
|
| I once pushed my daughter's pram down a path and hit the
| front of the next slab, and stopped dead. I'd not done her up
| and she shot out and was caught by the mesh of the sun shade.
| Lesson learned, belt them in.
| gochi wrote:
| That's a great alternative measure, especially those wide
| strollers!
| hgomersall wrote:
| I got this too. Another thing I notice is how common it is to
| block pavements with whatever - vehicles, bins, general
| street furniture, whatever.
|
| Normally when I suggest a driver doesn't park on a pavement I
| get a grumpy dismissal, though I once suggested it to a DHL
| driver who immediately got my point and moved. That was
| refreshing.
| plufz wrote:
| Being a swede that sounds surprising. Does France not have
| regulations for accessibility in public spaces?
| jacquesm wrote:
| Paris is ancient and built on a bunch of hills, there are
| quite a few places where retrofitting the city to make it
| more accessible would be easier by rebuilding the whole
| thing than by making changes and that's not going to
| happen. Amsterdam has an easier time of it, not quite as
| old, though old enough that that isn't a big factor in the
| difference, the good bit is that it is _mostly_ flat (other
| than the canal bridges, some of which can be pretty steep).
| Even so there are areas of the inner city that would be
| hard to navigate in a wheelchair.
| varjag wrote:
| Stockholm wasn't exactly built last year either.
| jacquesm wrote:
| True, but like Amsterdam it is _mostly_ flat, right?
| apelapan wrote:
| Having lived in both Stockholm and Amsterdam, I can
| assure you that Stockholm is not at all flat like
| Amsterdam!
|
| No idea about how easy either city is to get around with
| a wheelchair. Pushing a fully loaded double-stroller is
| no problem for an average-sized, ablebodied adult in any
| of them.
| gumby wrote:
| There's a technology issue too: my German in laws gave us a
| baby carriage that seemed to have been built for ascending
| the Eiger -- though it seemed (and was) huge it made
| navigating Paris quite easy (had to carry it up/down the
| metro steps) and even fit in the prehistoric elevator in our
| apartment building. Frankly, supposedly-snooty parisians are
| quite accommodating towards people with babies (once they can
| walk on their own though...)
|
| But I never saw anything like that in the parisian baby
| shops.
|
| I agree though about unattended obstacles on the trottoir --
| it's as if people forget they need to use them themselves.
| ThePowerOfFuet wrote:
| The RATP should be ashamed of themselves with the poor
| accessibility of the Paris metro. Barcelona's metro isn't
| that much older but is almost 100% accessible.
| tiffanyg wrote:
| You're hitting on some extremely key insights IMO. Insights
| grounded in abstract fundamental principles useful all the way
| from the "hardest" of sciences (physics and even maths,
| arguably, as a formal science) to the much "softer" (human
| psychology etc. - where it's far more difficult to be directly
| quantitative for a whole host of reasons).
|
| First, when it comes to engineering, the absolute best test is
| running the actual system. The "acid test" of a rocket is the
| launch of that rocket. And, even for all of our "computer-aided
| engineering" progress over the decades, a wind tunnel is still
| often a key step and can provide "better" and more reliable
| info regarding some characteristics of, say, rocket body shape
| performance, than Pro/ENGINEER or etc. can*. So, the best test
| when it comes to ADA-related issues is to engineer yourself, to
| the degree possible, into the position of someone with a
| "disability". The best work in these areas has involved people
| tying their limbs down etc. - because, even if you consciously
| work to not use one arm, say, you'll still involuntarily use it
| in many ways. For example, it'll naturally come up slightly to
| help regain balance in some situations.
|
| Second, and this is actually, I'd argue, simply a more complete
| perspective partly covered just above - _understanding_
| critically depends on the degree to which one can _be_ in some
| "position". Often enough, our minds can be adequate. In
| particular, we can "understand" abstractions that can't
| necessarily even have obvious "instantiations" - e.g.,
| mathematical abstractions come to mind. There may be
| "exemplars", but, you can't literally "show" me "the number
| 3"**. That written, there are many cases where we CAN
| 'experience' some form of direct 'instantiation' and, for
| reasons both experiential and even statistical / logical, such
| an instantiation is pretty well guaranteed to do a better job
| of producing understanding in our overgrown monkey minds than
| any amount of sitting around and daydreaming can.
|
| So, really, when it comes to the "hard(er)" (e.g., engineering)
| and "soft(er)" (e.g., psychology - including empathy, say),
| there's no substitute for "the actual launch" (to circle back
| to the language of the rocket example, above).
|
| * Though, there may be cases / "regimes" that are too difficult
| [at least practically] to test, even in a wind tunnel, and
| where, especially these days, CFD modeling can at least give
| some info and potentially be even entirely adequate)
|
| ** Can't wait to see the replies that just say "3", kek
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| Absence of empathy and other-experience - with some political
| orientations being actively hostile to it - may well be our
| single biggest cognitive handicap as a species.
|
| Many humans seem to be locked inside their skulls in what is
| - ironically - a very handicapped and limited mobility way.
| specialist wrote:
| Theory of mind (empathy) is what makes humans human. It
| enabled our comparatively larger social groups to function
| at all. More important than opposable thumbs, vocal cords /
| language, walking upright, and fire.
|
| (IMHO; believe but cannot prove; blah, blah, blah.)
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| This is very sad but true. Life is harsh for a lot of people. I
| have a basic capacity to work and all my senses intact without
| any major pains and I am very thankful for it. It makes me want
| to find ways to improve life on this planet somehow.
| moomoo11 wrote:
| Honestly life would be way better if we just helped each other a
| little bit without expecting anything in return.
|
| I think in most capitalist circles (I'm in one, and I like
| capitalism) people have lost their view of other people as
| people. We look at people as customers and group them into
| profiles.
|
| If we looked at people as people, and not just automatons who
| will purchase something from us, I think society would progress
| quite a lot. I don't think there's a way to do this since the
| majority just wants something that meets their effort:time spent
| ratio. However...
|
| It sucks that we put in AI chat bots that will never work as a
| substitute for human care.
|
| It sucks that we make all these horrendous UX decisions that are
| hard to navigate for most people who aren't 20.
|
| It sucks that we don't offer service for expensive products after
| selling them. Why can't I fix my own devices easily anymore?
| lijok wrote:
| What a strange article. I want to believe the author has good
| intentions but I can't help but feel they're virtue signalling.
| If one really wanted to understand what disabled people are
| dealing with, you should volunteer some time at a care home, not
| pretend to have a disability without understanding what that
| disability entails or being aware of existing coping strategies
| and tools for said disabilities.
|
| Most persons with disabilities the author pretended to have would
| have been able to navigate the situations the author encountered.
| So what insights have we gained from the authors experience?
| saboot wrote:
| >> Most persons with disabilities the author pretended to have
| would have been able to navigate the situations the author
| encountered
|
| How do you know this?
|
| Also, I downvoted your comment because 'virtue signalling' is
| non-sense phrase.
| dns_snek wrote:
| > Most persons with disabilities the author pretended to have
| would have been able to navigate the situations the author
| encountered.
|
| Care to elaborate? This very thread contains countless
| anecdotes affirming author's findings.
| seeknotfind wrote:
| Text to speech and speech to text app, powered by Whisper or the
| new tech, to allow deaf or mute to use the phone. Who's going to
| make it?
| Karunamon wrote:
| I think you might be on to something here! The biggest problem
| with whisper right now that kills a lot of use cases is the
| requirement that you send discrete audio files rather than
| streams.
|
| However, if you have never had a textual relay conversation,
| one of the conventions is that each party needs to say/type "go
| ahead/GA" when they are done. If you can break upon catching
| that phrase, that might be sufficient for whisper usage!
| catchnear4321 wrote:
| not long from now, when you call support, you will get to talk
| to the same chat bot that's on the web page / in the app, but
| it is on the phone.
|
| because it can now talk and listen. with text to speech and
| speech to text.
|
| to ensure equal access.
|
| enjoy.
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| I agree, it seems like we're headed to the everybody suffers
| equally instead of everybody is benefited equally
|
| Perfect example from a link from yesterday: The removed a
| crosswalk because it was cheaper to be in compliance by
| removing it than fixing it [1]
|
| Said another way, nobody...from the traffic engineer to the
| city counsel...cared enough about the people impacted, that
| they lobbied or changed the system in such a way that would
| help the impacted person. Their inputs were ignored or
| overruled.
|
| [1] https://streets.mn/2023/07/19/if-we-want-a-shift-to-
| walking-...
| InvisibleUp wrote:
| These services have already existed for decades, with
| government-funded interpreters. They're known as
| Telecommunications Relay Services and they come in a lot of
| varieties for one's specific level of disability.
|
| There are apps now that have the same service using AI
| transcription instead of a live interpreter, which is nice, but
| it's not world-changing.
| astura wrote:
| Typically people with speech or hearing difficulties use TTY
| relay services.
|
| https://www.nad.org/resources/technology/telephone-and-relay...
| danw1979 wrote:
| Exactly this.
|
| I remember regularly taking text-to-speech calls from a non-
| speaking Mac customer when I worked on tech support at an ISP
| back in 1998. Must have reconfigured MacPPP a dozen times
| before we finally got him up and running. He had the patience
| of a saint...
|
| In the UK Ofcom require telcos to provide such services to
| their customers. https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-
| and-internet/advice...
|
| This is absolutely the right solution to the problem, instead
| of insisting that every single organisation have such an in-
| house service.
| l0b0 wrote:
| I got into web accessibility early in my career, and would've
| probably done a lot more work there if anyone anywhere had given
| two shits. Trying to prioritise even basic stuff like alt text or
| keyboard shortcuts for the most important parts of a site were
| not interesting to any employers. Accessibility is really just an
| afterthought even when companies claim to be doing it.
| baz00 wrote:
| Cursed with the two shittiest UK organisations in existence
| there. Having dealt with Virgin Media and Thames Water for years
| they are quite frankly abhorrent even if you don't have a
| disability. From piss and rubbish filled street junction boxes
| and outages for days at a time to poor maintenance leading to a
| lingering smell of shit and mosquitos that actually devalued
| property in my area, they should be utterly shafted by everyone
| who can for every mistake they make.
|
| Vote with your feet if you can.
| devteambravo wrote:
| I spent some time discussing this with my buddy, who ate an RPG
| round in close proximity, while serving in Iraq. He gradually
| lost his vision, all of it. It's so depressing to even think back
| on the chats, as I cannot imagine living w/o the internet I grew
| up on. Does anyone want to pair up and work on software that
| treats disabled users with respect? And who know, maybe make
| something a deaf or blind or N player can experience? I lived a
| lot of live w/ 100% brain capacity, not really making use of it,
| and then it was taken from me in an IED blast (Afghanistan). What
| I lack in skills, I guarantee you I will make up with experience.
| A frustrated Infantryman turned UX/UI/Product afficionado (and
| $90k startup employee)
| xyzelement wrote:
| Great article and a good reminder to focus on accessibility.
|
| There's good news though. Although being disabled is difficult,
| it is less difficult now than at any other period in history. The
| amount of awareness, accommodation, accessibility focus, etc is
| maximum right now and it's only going to continue. It's important
| to keep this progress in mind as we work to further improve
| things.
|
| Another point is that people living with disabilities have years
| or decades of expertise, something that someone "cosplaying" (to
| use the author's word) has no access to. A cosplayer wouldn't
| know which streets are easiest with a wheel chair or which
| companies have the most accessible websites. An actual disabled
| person has this sort of knowledge and would navigate it far
| better than a "tourist"
|
| There's lot of work to be done but it's important to acknowledge
| what's better than it may seem at first.
| lamontcg wrote:
| I have to actually deal with stuff like this in real life with my
| disabled Mother, but for some reason this article just irritates
| me.
|
| Reads like its preaching to a bunch of liberals engaged in self-
| flagellation so they feel like they have empathy, but nothing is
| actually going to get done.
|
| Anyone going to form a Union at work so that people can work
| together to effectively push back on Management cutting support
| budgets and implementing dark patterns and just outright
| neglecting disabled people, or will it just be enough that we all
| feel bad about this and nothing will happen?
| fdhfdjkfhdkj wrote:
| [dead]
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