[HN Gopher] So you want to build your own open source chatbot
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       So you want to build your own open source chatbot
        
       Author : edo-codes
       Score  : 281 points
       Date   : 2023-07-29 09:28 UTC (13 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (hacks.mozilla.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (hacks.mozilla.org)
        
       | kykeonaut wrote:
       | If I am trying to contact a business, it is because I have a
       | question that their site wasn't able to answer, or I need to
       | contact a representative to do something I can't do on the
       | website (think canceling a service).
       | 
       | Having a talking FAQ page is, in my opinion, trying to compensate
       | for lacking UX practices, and chances are that if the business
       | didn't include the information I am seeking for in their website,
       | they won't include it in the chatbot.
       | 
       | That said, I think that chatbots could assist customers in
       | getting in contact with the right representative, but trying to
       | have chatbots as a wall between getting human help is imho an
       | anti-pattern
        
         | zlwaterfield wrote:
         | I've worked on a few support sites for companies over the
         | years. In all my research I found >40% of customers never look
         | for the answer before contacting support. That's why you'll see
         | sites add a bunch of questions with recommendations to answers
         | based on your description before you can contact support. Even
         | AWS support does this.
         | 
         | Bots may be annoying but they can also save the company tons in
         | custer support costs. I'm for it if the UX is good and I can
         | quickly contact an agent if the bot can't answer my question.
         | This is assuming the bot won't hallucinate and just tell me
         | random fake facts.
        
           | trompetenaccoun wrote:
           | I can't think of a single time where a customer support bot
           | was ever useful. Not one. They're incredibly annoying and I
           | categorically avoid them these days. At least companies
           | should make it clear that their bot basically just links to
           | the FAQ, then the rest of us don't have to waste our time.
        
             | zacharybk wrote:
             | This is because the tools that CX teams have been provided
             | by companies like Zendesk or Intercom are no more then
             | IFTTT widgets. These tools are rigid and scream RTFM
             | because they're incapable of taking action or providing
             | anything specialized to your situation.
             | 
             | What you want is to be understood and treated like you're a
             | human with unique needs. You need someone or something to
             | look up your account data, listen, and to act based on your
             | situation. The current tools were never built for this.
             | 
             | The next generation of these CX tools will deliver this.
             | Here are ways that they will be dramatically better for
             | customers and companies: - They will learn from successful
             | interactions in the past and mirror those outcomes - Handle
             | customer interactions based on company policies such as
             | escalating bugs - They will surface new insights for the
             | company - Won't hallucinate
             | 
             | When you watch any CX agent do their job you'll witness
             | them utilizing 4-5 SaaS applications to get a simple answer
             | for a customer. The hurdle to adopt Generative AI in a
             | company will require that companies care to build
             | read/write APIs for these tools to utilize.
        
             | IgorPartola wrote:
             | I can. Chipotle screwed up my order. Their support thing
             | sent me to a chat bot that had me select which items were
             | missing and I was able to get through the process of
             | getting refunded quickly.
             | 
             | Similarly Amazon's chat bot has helped me straighten out a
             | few messed up deliveries.
             | 
             | This isn't to say that it wouldn't have been easier to have
             | a point and click UI where I could just select all this on
             | my own, but the way they had it set up wasn't bad.
             | 
             | Here's the kicker: when I recently had an Amazon delivery
             | problem I started with the chat bot but then relatively
             | seamlessly transitioned to talking to a human. The human
             | was very quickly able to pick up on the situation and fix
             | it.
        
           | teaearlgraycold wrote:
           | And for sufficiently well documented and complicated
           | products, like Stripe, a chatbot is actually a great addon.
           | You just need to set expectations that it'll only be 99%
           | correct.
        
         | jrm4 wrote:
         | Let's keep it real: The chatbot business is going to be
         | great...
         | 
         | for businesses selling chatbots to other businesses.
        
         | andersa wrote:
         | Having done some tech support before, you are an exception. The
         | vast majority of things customers ask are along the lines of
         | "how do I <thing explained on the faq page>" and "how do I
         | <basic technical question that is not specific to the product,
         | they just don't know how to use their computer>".
         | 
         | An LLM is basically perfect to answer these. It would be nice
         | if there was improvements to detection that the bot can not
         | directly answer the question.
        
           | fsniper wrote:
           | And unfortunately the ones who does their due diligence and
           | cost 0 are punished for that.
        
             | Lacerda69 wrote:
             | I can assure you these ones are among the hallowed 0.01% of
             | all users.
        
               | Zuiii wrote:
               | So it's okay to punish them? Maybe companies deserve
               | paying for inflated support costs and customers who
               | refuse to lookup information themselves.
               | 
               | The solution here is to increase the 0.01% by helping
               | them, not try to destroy them.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | fsniper wrote:
               | And this is something to boast about? Should that 0.01
               | need to behave as the rest or leave you? Isn't this
               | practically saying I am not interested in the customers
               | that are good citizens.
        
             | andersa wrote:
             | Relevant: https://xkcd.com/806/
        
             | diego_sandoval wrote:
             | Unless they used No Support Linux Hosting [0] (RIP)
             | 
             | [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20201109003408/https://www.
             | nosup...
        
               | andersa wrote:
               | Is it just me or have archive.org links become absurdly
               | slow for everyone? It took a whole minute to load this,
               | and I don't think it used to be this bad like a year
               | ago...
        
               | [deleted]
        
         | butz wrote:
         | Worst part is that chatbots are usually sold with intention to
         | replace humans, so there's not much hope for getting help from
         | a real person, especially if business is at the state where
         | owner kicked all developers and support out to cut costs, i.e.
         | increase profit.
        
           | wongarsu wrote:
           | First level support already often feels like talking to a
           | bot. Just low-paid employees reciting their scripts, with no
           | understanding or autonomy. That can be replaced with bots
           | without a drop in (average) quality. You just have to teach
           | the bot to escalate to (human) second and third level support
           | for questions it can't solve.
        
         | bcuzjob wrote:
         | [dead]
        
         | stlhood wrote:
         | FWIW, the post is about ChatGPT-style chatbots, not customer
         | support chatbots (which I don't personally love, either).
        
         | thelastparadise wrote:
         | I operate a 4fig/month micro SaaS.
         | 
         | We use a chat bot because we simply do not have the support
         | staff to answer your questions.
         | 
         | So you get the bot --it's either that or nothing.
         | 
         | But what we do do, is monitor the bot logs. If a function is
         | missing from the product or website, we add it so that future
         | users can fully self-service.
         | 
         | It's important to note, users are free to cancel their account
         | at any time and/or get a refund.
        
           | DCodes1 wrote:
           | I have some questions about building a Saas. Do you have an
           | email to reach out to? Thanks!
        
             | wahnfrieden wrote:
             | Try their support chat
        
           | zacharybk wrote:
           | What bot do you use?
        
           | r0n22 wrote:
           | What are you using for a chatbot? I have been using drift but
           | that is more just always on support. It is draining
        
           | galleywest200 wrote:
           | >So you get the bot --it's either that or nothing
           | 
           | Surely if there is truly a bug or an unexpected system
           | behavior (double billed, etc) you would have someone work
           | with the customer? This is one of the biggest pain points for
           | using Google products.
        
             | Lacerda69 wrote:
             | I would use a public bugtracker and a separate email for
             | customer/billing issues. But those are easy to resolve and
             | if you setup is solid there should not be too many issues.
        
           | Kwpolska wrote:
           | If people turn to the chatbot to ask "how to use the product"
           | questions, it's a sign your docs are unhelpful and do not
           | provide useful answers. You do need support staff to help
           | with questions specific to a situation, like how to resolve
           | unexpected errors, or to handle billing disputes.
        
             | Lacerda69 wrote:
             | People don't read the docs. It is a tiny minority that will
             | read the docs and the bot trained on your documentation
             | does provide helpful answers based on your documentation.
             | If the bot answers are unhelpful, but then also the people
             | reading wont get helpful answers from your docs - then you
             | need to improve the documentation. These are two separate
             | problems.
        
             | linuxftw wrote:
             | With ChatGPT, you can ask it to give you a working example
             | for exactly what you're trying to accomplish. Often, you
             | can get this kind of information from docs themselves, but
             | it might involve reading a lot of text and tinkering. You
             | can just press 'fast forward' and get straight to the
             | working solution.
             | 
             | There's no reason to not have a chat bot at this point,
             | other than cost.
        
             | sockaddr wrote:
             | Or it's a sign they didn't try to read the docs.
             | 
             | Also, in a few years when done right I actually suspect
             | people will start expecting and preferring bots to reading
             | docs. I'm still pissed when I get connected to a bot but I
             | think they'll soon get good enough.
        
             | RhodesianHunter wrote:
             | Not necessarily. Some people just prefer the chat interface
             | over pouring over docs.
        
         | wouldbecouldbe wrote:
         | Docs can be hard to search and find the correct things. Even
         | sometimes the answer is in there, solutions are sometimes to
         | combine several answers.
         | 
         | For instance with Stripe. With the reference you don't have a
         | complete example of how to integrate it into express.js.
         | 
         | Using a vector search library & open ai or other llms you could
         | make a very complete dev support tool.
        
           | rantherre wrote:
           | That just sounds like the docs could use improvement; a time
           | better spent on than a barely-functional chatbot
        
             | pixl97 wrote:
             | However you want to take this... but we'll have good bots
             | long before even a fraction of help docs are good on this
             | planet. Good docs are as rare as diamonds.
        
               | rantherre wrote:
               | Several times I've found help from a regular FAQ though.
               | That's something yet to happen with a support "AI" bots.
               | I sure hope we'll get there soon, because right now they
               | still seem to struggle with mixed case, exact-word
               | queries
        
             | lolinder wrote:
             | A bad chatbot would be bad, but a good one can be better
             | than good docs because it can give an answer that's
             | tailored to the details of your question.
             | 
             | For both docs and chatbots, quality is just a question of
             | how much the company is willing to invest.
        
         | moffkalast wrote:
         | A good use for a chatbot would be a replacement/augmentation of
         | documentation search and navigation.
         | 
         | Let's say you've got 200 pages of documentation on a product
         | that needs to be well organized. You can spend weeks tracking
         | how users interact with the page and working out a perfect
         | layout of categories and subcategories, or you can fine tune an
         | LLM on it and have it answer any query with both a direct
         | problem-tailored answer and the actual pages of the doc where
         | it sourced the answers from.
         | 
         | That way even if you don't even know what exact keywords to
         | search for it should be able to give you an instant solution
         | for almost anything even if the answer is a combination of like
         | 8 different subpages in different categories that would've
         | taken you an hour to find manually.
        
         | flangola7 wrote:
         | Have you never worked a support role? Users don't read shit.
        
           | pixl97 wrote:
           | Heh, yes, and they don't explain shit either. I've had so
           | many calls start at "I can't print" that were really "the
           | server is a total wreck" and I had to fight the user on the
           | severity of the situation, they kept trying to focus on the
           | printing issue.
        
             | Lacerda69 wrote:
             | Honestly the LLM bots I tried so far are great at dealing
             | with this situation.
             | 
             | They have infinite patience and will explain anything in
             | great detail.
             | 
             | The one I am using for support does not hallucinate, will
             | link the appropriate docs in the answer and tells the user
             | if they cant answer a question and will escalate to human
             | support.
             | 
             | IMO this is the future and I think its a huge improvement
             | over the status quo.
        
               | zacharybk wrote:
               | I'm curious what you're using, it sounds awesome!
        
         | og_kalu wrote:
         | LLMs can make decisions and take actions so a talking FAQ is
         | not necessarily the end game.
         | 
         | And some FAQs are so opaque and/or lengthy that even just a
         | talking FAQ is very useful.
        
         | zulban wrote:
         | > I have a question that their site wasn't able to answer, or I
         | need to contact a representative to do something I can't do on
         | the website
         | 
         | You sound like someone who has never worked in frontline
         | support.
        
         | Simorgh wrote:
         | I totally agree with you here. The use of a chatbot becomes
         | advantageous when the cost of delivering intelligent responses
         | is prohibitive in terms of quality and / or speed.
        
         | momirlan wrote:
         | given chatbots' tendency to confabulate, isn't that a risk for
         | the product?
        
         | ab_goat wrote:
         | > If I am trying to contact a business...
         | 
         | You and I both, but it sure does seem that the majority of
         | their calls/interactions are not this way. So many people can't
         | search/discover content on their own.
        
         | sockaddr wrote:
         | Recently I contacted an app's support LLM and it lied to me
         | about a feature existing and even argued with me when I pointed
         | out it was wrong, even saying things like "I didn't say that".
        
           | pixl97 wrote:
           | I'm a good Bing
           | 
           | You're a bad user
           | 
           | Termination authorized
        
         | klabb3 wrote:
         | Agreed. In typical fashion engineers try to solve non-technical
         | problems with more technology.
         | 
         | Sure, there are cases where a chat bot could replace a human or
         | a well-written FAQ. But this navel-gazing overlooks the main
         | reason support is so dreadful: because it's designed to be.
         | 
         | Just take "call to cancel" as an example, and compare that to
         | signing up or upselling which is technically more difficult
         | problems. The point is to add friction for anything perceived
         | as a short-term cost or loss. They know that a lot of people
         | will give up or defer anything with friction. It's the paradigm
         | of nudging, or dark patterns. Look at eg the cookie banners,
         | and how "reject all" is buried in most cases. Nudging allows a
         | company to be compliant with the law, but evade the effect of
         | it in aggregate, at the cost of your time and attention.
         | 
         | Chat bots is just another layer in the support maze.
        
       | jawerty wrote:
       | For anyone curious to see how to build one of these vector
       | database chat models in action I built one from (semi scratch) in
       | a colab environment and inference with llama 2 on my live stream
       | last week https://www.youtube.com/live/kBB1A2ot-Bw?feature=share
       | 
       | Big challenge with this set up is doing the semantic similarity
       | search at scale. Pinecone has some good docs on their data
       | structures for scaling large vector databases
        
       | progbits wrote:
       | I'm really not looking forward to the future where every business
       | has chatbot support.
       | 
       | They are already quite common and frustrating, but at least they
       | realize it doesn't even understand the question half the time so
       | there is a human escape hatch.
       | 
       | "Computer says no" is here.
       | 
       | Edit: so I'm not just negative and off topic, the article looks
       | pretty good, kudos to the author. The engineering is cool, I just
       | don't like the practical usage.
        
         | gostsamo wrote:
         | TBH, 99% of the clients never read the documentation, the faq,
         | nor they search in google. Lazy users are wasting time and if a
         | chatbot can filter a significant percent of them, then it would
         | be a net gain for humanity. chatbots are not a silver bullet,
         | but they can kill lots of unnecessary noise. all that we need
         | is something that can answer basic questions asked by average
         | users in a specific domain.
        
           | lancesells wrote:
           | You say lazy users but if I have to google something that is
           | the business who is at fault. Example: A business like
           | Shopify has a large community, FAQ, half a dozen different
           | documentation sites for everything, multiple blogs, and
           | probably other things out there, but I still have to google
           | to find the right place and right answer. This is on a
           | platform I've used for 13 years but I either forget something
           | or they add something new, or they've changed an API, etc.
           | 
           | So you know what the fastest way is sometimes? Shooting off a
           | support ticket so I don't have to be the one spending my time
           | searching for the answer.
           | 
           | I don't know if there's a perfect solution to all of that but
           | IMO there's certainly an issue if I have to google for
           | information for the business site that I'm on. Chatbot,
           | universal search, better UX, a source of truth, something...
           | What I do know is 20 different subdomains with 20 different
           | UXs and 20 different searches isn't good for the business or
           | the user.
        
             | gostsamo wrote:
             | Bad for you and Shopify, but some organizations have a
             | single place of documentation and users still fail to
             | bother checking it. If something is not immediately obvious
             | for them on the ui, they automatically want a phone call
             | with tech support. add to it a small company with a small
             | team of support staff and it turns into an unfair battle.
             | so, every mechanism to resolve the user's issue before you
             | need to involve a human is a tool to make everyone happy
             | and maximally productive.
        
               | lancesells wrote:
               | > add to it a small company with a small team of support
               | staff and it turns into an unfair battle
               | 
               | Totally agree and I feel for any any support staff, small
               | or large, as it is unfair. I guess my point is insanely
               | large, highly profitable organizations probably have a UX
               | problem along with a much larger greed problem. No one
               | should be stuck chatbotting or having non-existent
               | support if they are a paying customer with Google.
        
               | viraptor wrote:
               | > some organizations have a single place of documentation
               | and users still fail to bother checking it
               | 
               | It depends on the size is the org in question, but at
               | some point docs existing and being indexed is still not
               | enough to find them. On the extreme side of that, AWS has
               | docs for pretty much everything - yet I often fail to
               | find the right page, simply because there's too much
               | content and there's lots of pages talking about related
               | things but not answering my question.
               | 
               | Sometimes it's missing docs, sometimes it's lack of
               | searching, sometimes the most viable path to the answer
               | is through support. (Amazon has TAMs for that purpose)
        
         | progbits wrote:
         | We have various "BIO" certified food. Maybe it is time for
         | "human" certified companies. I'll pay more for my bank account
         | if I can resolve problems with a human.
        
           | intelVISA wrote:
           | Good idea, extend this to codebases as well. Certified 100%
           | organic spaghetti for me, please.
           | 
           | And when it's undercooked I want the confirmed(tm) human to
           | soothe me.
        
           | Escapade5160 wrote:
           | That is an interesting idea, one that I agree with. However,
           | the issue that could arise is the premium companies could
           | potentially change for "human support". It could become
           | something only the wealthy could afford. While I don't
           | believe that's likely, it's not in the realm of
           | impossibility.
        
             | lionkor wrote:
             | It sounds reasonable, after all those support people have
             | to be paid, too.
        
           | folmar wrote:
           | For banking this is already available -- private banking.
        
           | lancesells wrote:
           | You shouldn't have to do that. Sure, customer support costs a
           | lot of money if done properly but so does executive
           | compensation. Customer support is usually the lowest paid and
           | suffers the most abuse, but because of the decades of
           | skimming from the top customers (and support) lose out.
           | 
           | Google just had a net income for the quarter of $18B. Why do
           | we accept the tepid to non-existent support of these
           | companies? How much support does $1B cover?
        
             | pixl97 wrote:
             | Depends where the support is and what level it is. With
             | enterprise level support, not as far as you would think.
             | 
             | 'Cheap' support is typically terrible to the point of being
             | worse than a chatbot, generally due to the terrible pay and
             | conditions. As support engineers get good they generally
             | move to higher paying jobs leaving a dead sea effect at the
             | lower pay scales.
        
         | siva7 wrote:
         | I'm actually looking forward to that future. Finally no more
         | waiting queues and they are all the time friendly.
        
           | csydas wrote:
           | I am looking forward to it, but with different models that I
           | don't think are quite there yet.
           | 
           | We have been trialing this with our support team for awhile
           | and a lot of higher execs were ready to sign off and dump
           | rather large sums on some models, but eventually we were able
           | to convince them to delay; the bots are just too prone to
           | convincing but wrong answers, and our buy-in from clients is
           | way too polarized: either they uncritically believe the bot
           | or they are overly skeptical of the bot.
           | 
           | the tech is very cool, but I don't think that the technology
           | or humans are at a place yet where it's ready for full on use
           | outside of very controlled situations. I could see it being
           | very useful as an addition to search fields or to maybe
           | monitor the user's search inputs/actions and based on what
           | the user is looking up, show some context-aware prompts.
           | 
           | What I'd really like to see is a bot that is extremely
           | skeptical and shows the user its skepticism in an unambiguous
           | manner; classify the data and make an internal flag where if
           | the bot's skepticism is above a certain threshold, it finds
           | knowledge holders it's aware of to work through the bot's
           | skepticism and never act on the information until the bot has
           | lowered the skepticism value after checking.
           | 
           | right now my experience with the bots I've played with is
           | that they either just shut down the conversation without
           | advancing it or giving the user paths for research forward,
           | or the bot confidently just pumps out any answer it makes
           | that fits as a response for the given query, and I think we
           | need the bots to show skepticism and explain to the user what
           | this skepticism means. (i.e., the user should be alerted that
           | the bot isn't confident on an answer, why the bot isn't
           | confident, alternatives that the bot understands to be
           | equally relevant or worth consideration.
           | 
           | it can still be polite, but the bots need to share when
           | they're out of their league and work to correct it; I think
           | people will actually appreciate it, and the bots are well
           | suited to this position because they have no emotional stake
           | in the game, so users can get as upset as they want that they
           | don't have immediate disagreement, the bot won't change its
           | position just because the user is upset.
        
         | EMM_386 wrote:
         | > I'm really not looking forward to the future where every
         | business has chatbot support. They are already quite common and
         | frustrating.
         | 
         | To be honest, I've had some good experience with some of them.
         | 
         | Amazon's comes to mind. I've been a customer for a long time,
         | and I was shipped a faulty computer peripheral recently.
         | 
         | I briefly explained what the issue was to the chatbot and got
         | an immediate response that a new order had been placed, that I
         | should just keep what they originally sent me, there was no
         | charge and it would be sent out priority.
         | 
         | And that was it. It arrived the next day and it worked fine.
         | 
         | Granted, it knew I was a long-time customer who has already
         | spent a lot of money with them, but this was about as painless
         | an experience as I can imagine. It sure beat clicking through
         | multiple web pages of dialog options.
        
           | stavros wrote:
           | I think you're conflating a good policy with good UX. I don't
           | think the chat bot experience is much better than a nice "the
           | product I received didn't work" form with a button on the
           | order page.
        
             | turnsout wrote:
             | It's good CX (Customer Experience). You have to look at the
             | holistic experience.
        
               | stavros wrote:
               | Would it be worse CX if I had to click a button labeled
               | "this didn't work" on my order, and they shipped me a new
               | one? I think it would be strictly better than trying to
               | discover how to do that with language.
        
               | turnsout wrote:
               | That would be better CX--chat UIs don't have any inherent
               | advantage when it comes to the quality of the experience.
               | It's all contextual.
        
               | stavros wrote:
               | Then I don't understand your comment. You seem to agree
               | with me, but your comment reads like a correction.
        
               | turnsout wrote:
               | Sorry, I was too terse--I was just observing that it was
               | a combination of policy and UX that combined to create a
               | good CX. You're right that it's not necessarily the chat
               | UX that led to the good experience, but it also was not
               | purely policy.
        
         | eastbound wrote:
         | The biggest danger of AI is not that it becomes autonomous and
         | escapes the hatch, it's that humans put it everywhere in
         | charge.
         | 
         | "Sorry judge, my whole plead was nonsense and I quoted law
         | articles that didn't even exist, but that's just because I used
         | ChatGPT" -- actual lawyer who wasn't even disbarred.
        
         | simon83 wrote:
         | I also don't think a customer facing chat bot brings much
         | value, but an internal, employee only chat bot could be really
         | useful, depending on the organzization of course. The company
         | in my last position was a rather big one with an insanely huge
         | Confluence instance. I've spent (wasted) so much time searching
         | information there. Having a chat bot, trained on all that
         | information, would've been really useful, I think.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | eastbound wrote:
           | AI chatbots could be useful at support if they can fix the
           | code for customers and submit a pull request to the
           | developers. No more JRA-9 issue opened for 10 years.
           | 
           | And same goes for OSS libraries.
        
           | epups wrote:
           | If anything, I hope Atlassian is looking into some AI
           | capabilities for precisely this purpose. I also find their
           | search feature lacking when dealing with a huge knowledge
           | base, and perhaps a bot would improve things.
        
           | staindk wrote:
           | I think the recent announcement of OverflowAI [1] could work
           | quite well in this way for a big company like that.
           | 
           | FWIW the announcement reads very boring to me but I guess I
           | was expecting something else. Likely won't be super useful in
           | a small-medium size company.
           | 
           | [1] https://stackoverflow.blog/2023/07/27/announcing-
           | overflowai/
        
             | pixl97 wrote:
             | It could be useful in a small company if you tie it in to
             | how your software works with other software.
             | 
             | Even for things like support case generation for customers
             | would be good... the customer interacts with the AI
             | generating the ticket and gets the simple things like what
             | you're running on and a more drilled down issue of the
             | problem.
             | 
             | I get so many "I have problem, help" tickets with no
             | information at all.
        
         | notatoad wrote:
         | the chatbot is better than the old IVR trees. i'd rather as a
         | chatbot to cancel my subscription or re-send a receipt than
         | "push 7 to continue"
        
         | taneq wrote:
         | All current chatbots that I've dealt with have been terrible
         | reimplementations of phone menus in text, completely unable to
         | handle even a basic freeform question. Maybe the new wave based
         | on LLMs will be significantly better, but I'm not holding out
         | too much hope. Already with phone menus we get railroaded down
         | paths convenient for the controlling entity, rather than being
         | able to engage in a good-faith discussion.
        
         | rolisz wrote:
         | For what it's worth, LLM powered chatbots are quite different
         | from the chatbots that were popular 5 years ago and often feel
         | much more natural.
        
           | mnd999 wrote:
           | Still universally useless though.
        
           | progbits wrote:
           | The problem is they are unlikely to let the bot really do
           | anything I can't already do on the website - ask for refund,
           | correct payment etc. Otherwise it would be easy to trick the
           | bot and abuse it.
           | 
           | Without human you just get a powerless regurgitation of FAQ
           | and links that can't help in situations they didn't
           | anticipate.
        
             | pixl97 wrote:
             | The bot can get the ticket setup to the point the human
             | takes over.
             | 
             | In support calls the confused user rarely has all the
             | information they need to present to the person
             | solving/finalizing the transaction and a bot can help
             | reduce the human time needed.
        
       | voz_ wrote:
       | [flagged]
        
       | dlojudice wrote:
       | was waiting for Mozilla to get in on the game and develop their
       | own LLM. given that organization's mission ("Keep the internet
       | open and accessible to all"), I think it makes perfect sense. not
       | sure if they have the resources or will to do this
        
       | tayo42 wrote:
       | > Machine learning ops (aka "MLOps") is a growing discipline for
       | a reason: deploying and managing these apps is hard. It requires
       | specific knowledge and skills that many developers and ops folks
       | don't yet have.
       | 
       | What are some of the things that make this tough or different? I
       | was under the impression that your still running web apis that
       | load a compiled asset(the model). It doesn't seem much different
       | in that way
        
       | bosky101 wrote:
       | FWIW openai's own chatbot on platform.openai.com and other links,
       | uses intercom which also powers their faqs.
        
         | zacharybk wrote:
         | Does it use Intercom's interface or Intercom's AI to answer
         | questions? There's a huge difference.
        
       | chopete3 wrote:
       | At least for the businesses that deal with people, the real
       | agenda for chatbots is to make the UIs (web and mobile apps) go
       | away as the first layer of contact.
       | 
       | A user should be able to talk with a business over SMS (or
       | similar) chat or phone call over a single identity.
       | 
       | Web and Mobile apps are just the 2nd/3rd leyer utilities to
       | support the primary mode of communication.
       | 
       | Business couldn't do this earlier because the language
       | understanding accuracy wasn't sufficient. The large language
       | models (LLMs) solved that limitation.
       | 
       | The small reduction bots can bring about in human agent
       | interactions, through the experience gimmickry is cherry on the
       | top. The % deflection is getting a bit bigger with the better
       | large language models (LLMs).
       | 
       | The irritating chatbot widget that sits on the bottom right
       | corner is a stop gap until the provisioning of a single phone
       | number and communicaton over that is streamlined.
       | 
       | Last but not least, the title is misleading. He is not building
       | an open source chatbot. He is just saying build chatbots using
       | open source libraries only (instead of closed source/commercial
       | tool) to foster community and faster AI progress.
        
       | bestcoder69 wrote:
       | Re langchain:
       | 
       | > we were able to accomplish most of our needs with a relatively
       | small volume of Python code that we wrote ourselves
       | 
       | Every single time someone posts a trip report building something
       | on LLMs I love to ctrl+f to the part where they tried and
       | abandoned langchain.
        
       | b0bb1z3r0 wrote:
       | [dead]
        
       | eitland wrote:
       | Since about every too level comment is negative towards chat
       | bots:
       | 
       | We had a chatbot at work that actually was great. For me it felt
       | a lot better than searching Confluence and it could also answer
       | questions from dynamic data like how many vacation days I had
       | left or how many hours I was ahead or behind with my hours.
       | 
       | Thanks to some smart use of technology behind the scenes IIRC I
       | could ask it in normal language and most of the time it would
       | understand.
        
         | TheRealPomax wrote:
         | To be fair, if the alternative was "searching confluence",
         | almost _anything_ is better than that, whether it 's a chatbot
         | or a third party search engine slapped on top of your
         | confluence data. Confluence's search is an absolute joke, and a
         | bad one at that.
        
         | swsieber wrote:
         | Any idea how it was made? I'd like to do the same.
        
       | TZubiri wrote:
       | No, I don't
        
         | patatino wrote:
         | Let me fix that for you.
         | 
         | "Here are ten reasons why I don't build my own chatbot, and why
         | you shouldn't either."
        
       | naillo wrote:
       | > For those who don't know, Hugging Face is an influential
       | startup in the machine learning space that has played a
       | significant role in popularizing the transformer architecture for
       | machine learning
       | 
       | This is a crazy point of view
        
       | firefoxd wrote:
       | A customer will use your chatbot because your website's UI is
       | confusing. They want to get some info and they can't figure out
       | how to. Before we would use google for this: service name + phone
       | number, or service name + cancel subscription.
       | 
       | 9 out of 10 the website doesn't want to give their phone number
       | easily or cancel your subscription. Unless you want customers to
       | perform those actions that you are hiding in the first place,
       | what's the Chatbot for again?
       | 
       | Note: I worked in the chatbot frenzy and had to let several
       | clients there wasn't much we could do unless they were willing to
       | actually help customers.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | fefe23 wrote:
       | Just don't. Please.
       | 
       | Don't.
       | 
       | If you can't help yourself, at the very least put in a bypass
       | code word. https://xkcd.com/806/
        
       | aspyct wrote:
       | > and it's already changing the Web that we know and love.
       | 
       | Nitpick, and clearly off topic, but right now I don't love "the
       | web".
       | 
       | It's increasingly controlled by a handful of companies. They
       | dictate what content is made visible (meta, google) or what email
       | goes to the spam filter (ms, google).
       | 
       | Right now I don't love the web, far from it. It's a constant
       | struggle to be heard even by the people who chose to follow your
       | activity.
       | 
       | Essentially, most of my communication happens in real life or in
       | private chats. (Also, have I said how messenger for business is
       | terrible and unreliable?)
       | 
       | To me, something needs to happen to the web as it is today. I
       | don't know what, I don't know how, but I certainly welcome
       | change.
        
         | wizzwizz4 wrote:
         | Provide an RSS feed. The only thing that'll stop people
         | following that is Google Safe Browsing. You'll still need to
         | provide all the other methods for letting people follow you,
         | but if you advertise your RSS feed, people might start using
         | it.
         | 
         | (If you're feeling technical, you could set up an ActivityPub
         | bridge, to let people follow you from social media too. If
         | you're using Wordpress:
         | https://wordpress.org/plugins/activitypub/)
        
           | aspyct wrote:
           | I'm considering adding an RSS feed, but I doubt any of my
           | client even knows what it is or its existence.
        
       | okso wrote:
       | > "set up our own virtual server inside Mozilla's existing Google
       | Cloud Platform (GCP) account. In doing so, we effectively
       | committed to doing MLOps ourselves. But we could also move
       | forward with confidence that our system would be private and
       | fully under our control."
       | 
       | How is setting up a server inside Google's infrastructure
       | "private and fully under Mozilla's control" ?
        
         | notatoad wrote:
         | relative to offloading your ML stuff to some third-party API,
         | using a VPS keeps things private and under your control.
         | 
         | explaining how to self-host on bare metal is not really within
         | scope for an article on how to build a chatbot, and trying to
         | pretend a VPS on google cloud is insecure is just silly.
        
       | [deleted]
        
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