[HN Gopher] Cities with their own psychological disorders
___________________________________________________________________
Cities with their own psychological disorders
Author : l3x
Score : 122 points
Date : 2023-07-28 11:32 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.atlasobscura.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.atlasobscura.com)
| pvaldes wrote:
| Always heard about Florence syndrome as Stendhal's, but never did
| click before.
|
| My bet is that in the future somebody will eventually find a
| direct relationship between the symptoms and the chemicals used
| to clean the museums or preserve antique valuable pieces from the
| attack of insects and molds.
|
| As long as the ventilation systems (and insurance?) improve
| should be more and more rare.
| user6723 wrote:
| San Francisco
| dghughes wrote:
| I would have figured London Syndrome as being people who visit
| London and then when back start speaking with with a pretentious
| posh accent.
| bowsamic wrote:
| I know someone who experienced Florence syndrome. Quite
| interesting. Seems almost alien to me.
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| Guess it doesn't make the cut because it's not called "Phoenix
| Fever", but Valley Fever is a local affliction, stemmed from dust
| and spores being kicked into the air. It's quite nasty, not that
| anyone here needed less of a reason to visit Phoenix, Arizona.
| neilv wrote:
| > _Detroit Syndrome is a form of age discrimination in which
| workers of a certain age are replaced by those who are younger,
| faster, and stronger, not to mention endowed with new skills
| better suited for the modern workplace._
|
| Does a certain 20yo junior writer for a Web site resent the
| senior writers?
| pc86 wrote:
| I think this is more a statement about the Detroit auto scene
| being objectively behind other areas. Yeah age discrimination
| plays a part but in this case it's actually justified as
| opposed to just being cheaper.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| From TFA:
|
| _The syndrome, reported in 2011, gets its name from Detroit,
| and more specifically from its reputation as a manufacturing
| hub for automobiles, in which newer models would replace the
| older ones on a regular basis._
|
| I.e., "replaced by a newer/younger model".
| w-m wrote:
| I think they have forgotten a few. It's already Friday afternoon
| here, so I hope you'll be able to excuse my ChatGPT indulgence:
|
| _Silicon Valley Disruption Delusion_ - This peculiar state of
| mind is characterized by an individual 's inclination to perceive
| every life aspect as a sector ripe for modernization. Symptoms
| include an increased use of entrepreneurial vernacular,
| spontaneous pitching to unsuspecting venture capitalists, and a
| tendency to self-identify as a "founder." In extreme cases, one
| might even start praising the virtues of blockchain for everyday
| activities.
|
| _Amsterdam Cycle Confusion_ - In this unusual psychological
| state, the individual develops a belief that they should travel
| exclusively by bicycle. This can lead to fervent cycling even in
| non-bike-friendly areas and a distinct reluctance to use
| pedestrian pathways or motorized transport.
|
| _Munich Brewmaster Belief_ - Individuals affected by this
| syndrome are consumed by the idea that they are master brewers.
| The condition manifests in an incessant discussion about hops and
| yeast, an urge to experiment with brewing in unconventional
| locations, and the staging of impromptu beer tasting
| competitions.
|
| _Palo Alto Unicorn Unreality_ - Those affected by this syndrome
| exhibit an uncanny tendency to transform every idea into a
| potential billion-dollar startup or 'unicorn.' They might
| display irregular sleep patterns, subsist mainly on energy drinks
| and quick meals, and their conversations are often peppered with
| phrases like "the next big thing," and "exit strategy."
|
| _Seattle Server Overload Syndrome_ - This cognitive anomaly
| leads a person to believe they 're akin to a server, required to
| handle multiple requests concurrently. They may develop an
| unhealthy penchant for multitasking and often describe their
| mental state using terms such as "processing," "bandwidth," and
| "buffering."
| analog31 wrote:
| Madison syndrome. The delusion that January is the time to play
| and ride bicycles outdoors instead of properly hibernating.
| bratgpttamer wrote:
| Cambridgehaven Syndrome is marked by an inability to start an
| anecdote without "When I was at Harvard/Yale..."
| jjkaczor wrote:
| Heh, in my family that is "Down-under Syndrome".
|
| As in, "oh - that's not how they do it in Australia, did you
| know I lived in (or visited) Australia for 'x' amount of time?"
| retrocryptid wrote:
| I would add "Palo Alto Syndrome" -- It's where you show up on
| Sand Hill Rd. with a business plan only to discover VC's don't
| want to look at "reasonable" plans to build a 20M company in 3
| years for a 500k investment, but want to invest in "outlandish"
| plans to build a 200B company in 6 months with a 100M investment.
| glonq wrote:
| Vancouver Canada has a reputation as no-fun city and also a place
| where it's tough to make friends. Which is weird when you
| consider that it's a gem of a city with abundant natural and man-
| made attractions.
|
| Can I suggest that _feeling bored and lonely despite idyllic
| surroundings_ defines "Vancouver Syndrome" ?
|
| /s but kinda not
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| They also missed the Glasgow effect - residents have a
| significantly lower life expectancy that the rest of the UK and,
| from memory so could be wrong, it affects people who's first line
| ancestry is from Glasgow but who themselves have never lived
| there.
| darkclouds wrote:
| > residents have a significantly lower life expectancy that the
| rest of the UK
|
| Diet - Seems like Glaswegians have forgotten Fee-fi-fo-fum In
| certain parts of the country, the NHS will prescribe some
| things to elderly people which increases life span, that would
| normally be found in high levels elsewhere in the country. I
| doubt Evian or San Pelligrino is high on the shopping list up
| there either.
|
| > London Syndrome is when hostages become argumentative toward
| their captors--often with deadly results.
|
| I think I must be suffering from London syndrome, in much the
| same way the population of voters feel at general election
| time, or a congregation feels towards a vicar.
| smcl wrote:
| > Diet - Seems like Glaswegians have forgotten Fee-fi-fo-fum
| In certain parts of the country
|
| No idea what "fee-fi-fo-fum" is supposed to refer to, but it
| seems you're suggesting that Glaswegians simply choose to
| have a poor diet and therefore suffer poor life expectancies
| as a result. In reality there are myriad social and health
| problems that come from having a shitload of deprived areas -
| can be seen in the link Arethuza posted - and all of these
| contribute in some way to a lower life expectancy.
|
| If you're going for cheap "Scottish people like alcohol and
| deep fried food" laughs then, ok fair have your fun. But know
| that there isn't _that_ much difference north and south of
| the border on that, so if you 're searching for a serious
| answer you would need to dig deeper.
| darkclouds wrote:
| > No idea what "fee-fi-fo-fum" is supposed to refer to
|
| Calcium.
|
| I dont think being on the bread line is useful when
| watching harrys farm
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juXXt4ZHS-8&t=467s
|
| or being in damp conditions.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladosporium#Health_effects
|
| I can smell the mould in some brand new sliced bread and
| baps when its not out of date or anything visibly wrong
| with it.
| arethuza wrote:
| The Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation is fascinating and
| rather grim:
|
| https://simd.scot/
|
| e.g. Select the most deprived 5% from the key - they are mostly
| in Glasgow :-(
| nickybuzz wrote:
| Sounds like... genetics?
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| What's so fascinating is that Edinburgh and Glasgow are only
| 50 miles apart. Just 50 miles in where someone's parents or
| even grandparents were born and moved then away from has a
| legitimate impact on their life expectancy.
| tter3 wrote:
| They missed Havana syndrome.
| tutuca wrote:
| Ah, yes, the misterious technology from a country on a 50+
| years blockade. Totally not made out.
| swarnie wrote:
| Isn't that just a civil service grift? As in, is actually a
| recognisable condition?
| digdugdirk wrote:
| Not sure what you're implying here, but just because there
| isn't a scientific consensus on a condition does not
| immediately make it a "grift".
| smcl wrote:
| Calling it a "grift" may be harsh, but "Havana syndrome" as
| a result of some kind of Cuban sonic super-weapon that
| happens to have the same noise as some local crickets was
| definitely an enormous stretch. That plenty of people
| played along with it to the extent that bills were passed
| allocating funding for the treatment of these people might
| not be a _grift_ but it 's certainly _something_ extremely
| peculiar. With US healthcare in the state that it is, I get
| that some people might need to be creative to get treated
| so I can 't exactly blame anyone (nor get mad since I don't
| pay US taxes).
| numboreal wrote:
| My guess is more of a mass hysteria situation combined
| with politicians that are exceptionally credible toward
| anything the military says than a conscious grifting.
| mnw21cam wrote:
| Is that a psychological disorder? (I think the jury might still
| be out on that.)
| ethbr0 wrote:
| > (on Paris Syndrome uniquely afflicting Japanese tourists) _Or
| it could be the jarring confrontation of the a priori ideal of
| Paris as exotic and friendly with the rather more abrasive nature
| of the city's inhabitants._
|
| Having visited Tokyo (which I assume is the most Paris-like Japan
| gets?) and Paris (just got back from most recent trip), this
| rings true.
|
| Average "mild annoyance" from a Parisian would equal "severe
| disrespect" from a Tokyo resident.
|
| Plus add in the French propensity not to apologize for normal,
| everyday oops-type things, and I imagine it'd be very jarring.
|
| That said, on my most recent trip to Paris, I actually found
| Parisians a _lot_ nicer than the last time I was there
| (~1995ish?).
|
| There's a lot of Gallic-isms, but even as an American with
| extremely bad and limited French, most people were very nice.
|
| PS: Not sure why tacos are the new craze in Paris, but y'all
| should really import some Tejanos to get the full experience.
| Feta never belongs on a taco that's not shrimp.
| Swizec wrote:
| > but even as an American with extremely bad and limited
| French, most people were very nice
|
| The trick to Paris, I've found, is to start with broken French
| and then suddenly everyone speaks fluent English. But if you
| start with English you're screwed.
|
| Even saying "Bonjour" with a decent accent (you can learn it
| like a song almost) will make them significantly nicer to you.
|
| But yeah don't expect a big city person to actually verbalize
| anything if they bump into you in a crowded place. That's just
| expected and normal. Not worth aknowledging.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| 100% agreed. Starting with bad French + a self-deprecating
| expression = much more helpful Parisians
|
| The kids and I joked about how pleasantly lyrical all French
| greetings are. You have to try to make "Bonjour" not sound
| nice.
| inconceivable wrote:
| everyone was really nice to me in paris.
| twmiller wrote:
| > That said, on my most recent trip to Paris, I actually found
| Parisians a lot nicer than the last time I was there
| (~1995ish?).
|
| My wife and I had the exact same experience. We had been to
| Paris in the late 90s and when we were there a couple of years
| ago, we found people to be much nicer than they had been
| previously. Our theory is that it is / was a generational
| thing.
| Doches wrote:
| It's hard to pick up on as an American, but "French Tacos"
| actually don't have any genealogy in common with Tex-Mex tacos.
| They're essentially north African shwarma (lamb kebab, fries,
| cheese sauce, lettuce shoved in a wrap) re-marketed in a way
| that doesn't invoke knee-jerk racism from the French
| mainstream. Calling them "tacos" lets them get away with being
| exotic, and since the average Francais doesn't really have any
| preconceived notions about Mexico or Mexican food either way it
| doesn't conjure up any negative associations. Calling them "Le
| French Tacos" is even more re-assuring -- they're tacos, but
| 'frenchified', so they must be OK.
|
| But that same light-skinned frenchman would turn up his gallic
| nose an authentic arabic shwarma, even stumbling from from le
| bar at 2am. That the only difference between a good shwarma and
| a good French taco is /maybe/ the choice of cheese makes no
| difference...
|
| (Source: live in Toulouse, have snarky Lebanese friends)
| panda888888 wrote:
| French tacos are the weirdest food I've ever eaten. Imagine
| chicken cordon bleu wrapped inside a big burrito-sized
| tortilla.
| cguess wrote:
| Norway is this too. I tried to make actual Tex-mex ground
| beef tacos for some friends and they were abhorred by it.
| kbenson wrote:
| Honestly, one of the the things that worries me the most
| about possibly moving out of California (being a native) to
| another state at some point is lack of good Mexican food if
| I'm not careful about where I move. I'm sure it's much
| worse in the majority of countries I'd be interested in
| moving to as well.
| cguess wrote:
| Most of the US, in cities, you can find solid Mexican
| food. Chicago probably has the best "authentic" non-Cali
| Mexican in the country even. You won't have to worry just
| might have to hunt a bit.
|
| The rest of the world? Yea you're screwed. I found one
| place in Berlin that did legit Mexican because it was run
| by Mexicans (Santa Maria in Kruezeberg) but that's
| literally the only decent Mexican I've found in the 50+
| countries I've visited and trust me, I've looked in all
| of them.
|
| Good news is you can find the ingredients for good
| Mexican in pretty much all of them and do it yourself.
| The hardest to source is proper jalapenos or any dried
| peppers, but there's usually a speciality shop somewhere
| that will be able to give you most of what you need.
| Cilantro can also be a bit of a pain, but it's way easier
| than it used to be even 10 years ago.
| kbenson wrote:
| Yeah, I'm not worried about it in sizeable cities, but me
| moving out of CA would probably be coupled with being a
| bit more rural (and that's coming from not living in a
| "large" city already, as I live an hour north of SF). I
| can move anywhere in CA or any of the southwest states
| and probably be within 20-30 minutes of some fairly good
| passably authentic Mexican food. My confidence in that
| erodes the farther from the southwest or a large city I
| am.
|
| We actually cook a few dishes fairly regularly (the pork
| tinga recipe from America's Test Kitchen is actually
| amazing, if you're looking for something, and dead simple
| to boot), but there's something comforting knowing it's
| easy to get some of your favorite food done well on
| demand on short notice for those days you really aren't
| feeling like dealing with making dinner.
| chrisdhoover wrote:
| The worry is real. You cannot find a decent mission
| burrito afield. It really a local specialty of San
| Francisco. I suspect the same is true for burritos found
| in San Diego. And those tacos in Texas, on flour
| tortillas, well those aren't tacos at all but incomplete
| and unfinished burritos. OK if you want to rebrand a half
| assed burrito and call it a taco go right ahead. And none
| of it is a sandwich - not burgers, dogs, falafel,
| shawarma, gyros, burritos or tacos. A taco is not a
| sandwich
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > , but "French Tacos" actually don't have any genealogy in
| common with Tex-Mex tacos.
|
| They have a kind of connection beyond the name, even though
| neither is a linear descendant of the other. Tex-Mex tacos
| are a descendant of traditional central Mexican tacos, as
| also are tacos al pastor; but tacos al pastor are _also_
| descendants of schwarma, which French tacos derive from. So
| they 're like cousins by marriage.
| MrDrMcCoy wrote:
| [dead]
| csdvrx wrote:
| That's so fascinating! What do you Lebanese friends think
| about it? Is it like how Italian American dishes are
| perceived by italians?
|
| BTW I've tried French Tacos and I LOVE IT! I think it could
| be a huge success in the US, if tweaked for our meat and
| cheese tastes, like with brisket and cheddar.
| boudin wrote:
| It's just a variant of kebab and shwarma that gained
| popularity. Nothing to do with the need to rebrand it because
| of racism. Shwarma (or kebabs as most people call those)
| shops fed generations of french studients and party-goers and
| have been everywhere for decades.
|
| It's kind of funny though, french tacos really took over
| France in the last decade, I guess because of fast food chain
| like o'taco. When I left France in 2015 it was unheard of
| where I was living, now it's everywhere.
| TechBro8615 wrote:
| The culture shock of the Paris experience has less to do with
| vague aspersions against Parisian personality, and more to do
| with the sudden confrontation of the sight of thousands of
| unhoused immigrants under a bridge, or dozens of pickpockets at
| every tourist attraction. You know, the stuff they don't
| include in the tourist brochures and the movies about Paris.
|
| Personally I found Paris extremely underwhelming - it felt just
| like New York but slightly more French. I had a much better
| experience visiting small towns in the south of France. But to
| be fair to France, I don't think this is an issue unique to
| their country - it's an issue with tourism to cities. As a
| tourist I've come to realize that most cities are largely the
| same across every meaningful dimension. The best travel
| experiences come from smaller towns and generally anywhere "off
| the beaten path." As they would say in Thailand, every city is
| "same same but different."
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Paris is definitely much worse than, say, London when it
| comes to pickpockets, street hawkers, and other nastiness
| because they actually do very little about those problems...
| Gud wrote:
| I disagree. You cannot compare Dubai with Paris - or any othe
| 1 million+ population city.
|
| They all have their unique story to them. Even cities as
| close as say Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Antwerp are totally
| different.
| slater- wrote:
| i'm from california. the funniest thing about paris was people
| repeatedly getting way too fucking close to me on the street.
| my hackles were constantly going up because some french person
| minding their own business was breaching my bubble. i wonder
| how this compares to personal space norms in japan.
| piuantiderp wrote:
| Bro, no one with a clue goes to Texas for tacos. Maybe Cali,
| but I don't bother for the most part in the US. Am Mexican
| eastof wrote:
| Just curious, have you had tacos in El Paso? As a non-expert,
| strikes me as a place that would have good tacos since half
| the city is in Mexico.
| piuantiderp wrote:
| Even the Mexican side lives in a state of sin as it comes
| to tacos. If you must, go to Tacos Chinampa.
|
| An apology for coming off so critical but the pretense that
| food is just as good in the US rarely pans out without
| breaking out the $$$. Mind you, there are good places, and
| good food but its the exception and here we are only
| talking generalities. Just like having good table service.
|
| Unfortunately it is a cultural thing; the food culture that
| produced, accepts and consumes "I Can't Believe Its Not
| Butter" cannot have non-"I Can't Believe Its Not Tacos"
| tacos.
| ferrous69 wrote:
| there are good tacos all over Texas. Def in El Paso. El
| Cometa is a chain that's on both sides of the border. Idk
| what that guy is on about.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| Hell, I'll even put Taco Bueno up against any other pan-
| US cheap quasi-taco chain.
|
| It's bad Tex-Mex, but at least it's recognizable.
| brookside wrote:
| This mysticism about food only being good or authentic in one
| place doesn't match up with modern internationalism and
| global supply chains.
|
| There are cooks/chefs from one culture/place in the world
| living in other spots.
| fatfingerd wrote:
| Yet regions ruin dishes and then locals from that region
| complain if anyone makes a good version of them, so it can
| be extremely hard to find an edible X, especially as a
| visiting tourist.
| piuantiderp wrote:
| Yes, like one of the best contemporary Mexican chefs lives
| in the UK of all places. But we're not talking about this
| broadly.
|
| You talk about the possibility, that it _could_ exist in
| Texas, and I 'm telling you no, in my experience, not in
| Texas.
| pc86 wrote:
| Thanks for the input bro.
| P_I_Staker wrote:
| I think many foreigners don't try to fit into the aloof
| European culture where you act like a mildly sociopathic
| hipster.
|
| I'm not saying that "all of Europe" is like that, but
| definitely the major cities of many Western European countries.
|
| That said, we have SV / Seattle, so I guess we have our own
| hipster sociopaths in the USA.
| dopidopHN wrote:
| The tacos you saw are a riff on kebab. They are tacos in name
| only. ( TINO if you like )
| ethbr0 wrote:
| I noticed there were French tacos (TINOs), but it seemed like
| the "taco" popularity was leading to a few closer-to-Tex-Mex
| taco places as well.
|
| This was around the Bastille, so maybe hipster culture?
|
| Overall, a decent attempt, but the salsa was a miss (no
| cilantro? and not sure what they did to the tomatoes) and the
| seasonings were still very French.
|
| The irony is afaict, France has all of the ingredients
| needed. In typically amazingly-fresh-and-delicious French
| fashion.
|
| But hey, it was still a better take than the Italian Tex-Mex
| I had in New England -- cinnamon on tortilla chips?!
| dopidopHN wrote:
| Good observation... I haven't lived in Paris since a while
| but it's often the same place that serve kebab doing tacos.
| And most of them put a accent on the meat rather than the
| fresh stuff around it ( unlike the far superior German
| kebab )
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| Cinnamon on plain tortilla chips is pretty rough, but if
| they _fried_ the tortillas first you 'd have yourself a
| delicious bunuelo :)
| meigwilym wrote:
| I'm no expert, but wasn't Stockholm Syndrome debunked?
|
| My understanding is that the response to the hostage taking was
| so incompetent that the hostages trusted the kidnappers more than
| the police. One of them was expected to "die at her post" by a
| bank executive. She refused to testify against them for these
| reasons rather than any sympathy to their cause.
| praptak wrote:
| Well this article seems to classify it as pure bullshit:
| https://www.stadafa.com/2020/12/stockholm-syndrome-discredit...
|
| "The psychiatrist who invented it, Nils Bejerot, never spoke to
| the woman he based it on, never bothered to ask her why she
| trusted her captors more than the authorities. More to the
| point, during the Swedish bank heist that inspired the
| syndrome, Bejerot was the psychiatrist leading the police
| response. He was the authority that Kristin Enmark - the first
| woman diagnosed with Stockholm syndrome - distrusted."
|
| "On the radio, Enmark criticized the police, and singled out
| Bejerot. In response, and without once speaking to her, Bejerot
| dismissed her comments as the product of a syndrome he made up:
| 'Norrmalmstorg syndrome' (later renamed Stockholm syndrome).
| The fear Enmark felt towards the police was irrational, Bejerot
| explained, caused by the emotional or sexual attachment she had
| with her captors. Bejerot's snap diagnosis suited the Swedish
| media; they were suspicious of Enmark, who 'did not appear as
| traumatized as she ought to be.' "
|
| At best,this syndrome was described based on one situation, not
| scientific research.
| jbandela1 wrote:
| Maybe we should have a Bejerot Syndrome.
|
| This is where an "expert" impugns the intellect or morality
| of the people who disagree with them instead of trying to
| understand the very real reasons why.
| portmanteur wrote:
| I can think of a few examples over the past 3-8 years where
| this would be a useful syndrome to have named and in the
| popular memory.
|
| Oh well, Stockholm Syndrome is catchier.
| praptak wrote:
| That certainly sounds tempting but we should struggle to
| have less poorly substantiated syndromes, not more :-)
| beschizza wrote:
| Perhaps Bejerot Syndrome could refer to the pop-science
| tendency to gather and link rational objections to a
| proposal, policy or practice so they can be posed as
| pathologically associated symptoms.
| bratgpttamer wrote:
| Agreed - but, isn't character assassination a classic
| technique of authorities employed against those who
| disagree with them?
| pessimizer wrote:
| Or more precisely, the _mental health_ of the people who
| disagree with them.
|
| Knowing that the person who came up with Stockholm Syndrome
| was the very same person who the hostages sided with the
| bank robbers against makes it look a lot like drapetomania
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapetomania).
| P_I_Staker wrote:
| [flagged]
| johanneskanybal wrote:
| Watch "Clark" on Netflix for a fun take on events. But
| basically imagine a charming sociopath bankrobber back in
| innocent 70's in Sweden.
|
| With the twist that the bank robbing that gave name to the
| phrase was made by someone psychotic and the friendly bank
| robber got called in by the prime minister to negotiate.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| Most of these supposed syndromes seem fairly questionable.
| tokai wrote:
| Almost all of them just seems like first psycotic episode
| brought about by a novel stressful environment.
| cguess wrote:
| "feelings of dizziness and being lightheaded" sounds much
| more like a tourist was walking around Italy in the summer
| with a heavy backpack and not drinking enough water after
| getting off an airplane and probably impinging too much
| wine at dinner the night before.
| jjkaczor wrote:
| Same with any hotter climate tourist location and
| 'mysterious syndrome'.
|
| Also combine with perhaps a little change in their
| stomach biome from drinking different water and/or eating
| different dairy products, making them more easily
| dehydrated.
| cguess wrote:
| People tend to either over or under indulge while
| traveling too (I always lose weight when I'm on the road
| myself) and that's never awesome in either direction
| isleyaardvark wrote:
| The wiki entry for Paris syndrome debunks the entry in the
| article. The article seems low quality.
| aredox wrote:
| Yes, Stockholm syndrome is a toxic lie, a mix of mysoginy,
| covering up police incompetence and Swedish "holier-than-thou"
| attitude.
|
| https://www.stadafa.com/2020/12/stockholm-syndrome-discredit...
| 3cats-in-a-coat wrote:
| Stockholm syndrome is an example of a phenomenon that is
| pervasive in society and nature in general and a basic
| consequence of trying to adapt to your environment. We can
| nitpick forever the specific Stockholm events, but they're
| just a noisy example of a pattern, not an ideal MODEL of the
| pattern.
| aredox wrote:
| It's not. The proof? There is no serious study on it,
| despite its "obviousness" and "pervasiveness".
|
| Kapos, collaborators or hostages joining the cause of their
| captors are not a "syndrome" of people "falling in love" or
| "bonding" with their captors. Patty Hearst was just
| convinced of the cause of the SLA - and she tried to get
| out of jail by using that card. She was just neither bright
| not honest - a spoiled brat jumping on an adventure that
| turned bad.
| escapedmoose wrote:
| But the distinction between the apparent pattern and its
| underlying cause is important. If the cause of this method
| of "trying to adapt to your environment" isn't actually
| some bizarre psychological paradox after all, that fact has
| important implications for how we treat people in these
| scenarios.
| 3cats-in-a-coat wrote:
| In general anything we call "paradox" is something we
| don't understand. A paradox is apparent contradiction of
| facts and their logical, rational relationship. But
| contradictions don't exist out there.
|
| Reportedly the syndrome "occurs in 8% of kidnap victims",
| by FBI stats. Not sure how they measure that, but seems
| plausible. Of course when forced to act against your
| will, you're defiant. Fight or flight. That's what
| happens most of the time. Except it's not so simple.
|
| There's a fuller description of the strategies known as
| "Fight, Flight, Freeze, Fawn" (I guess it was super
| important to to keep the F-s, hehe).
|
| We see the Freeze response in nature, deer stuck in
| headlights, animals pretending to be dead when attacked,
| and so on. We can see this response in children with
| violent parents. They can't run and hide, nor fight. They
| freeze.
|
| Fawn is basically the "Stockholm syndrome":
|
| - Over-agreement
|
| - Trying to be overly helpful
|
| - Primary concern with making the abuser happy
|
| This 8% figure with kidnapping seems to be low because
| the "Fawn" adaptation takes time to develop. A kidnapping
| is sudden and unexpected. No time to adapt. But there are
| abusive situations when there is plenty of time to adapt.
|
| We can see this in cults, in abusive families, autocratic
| companies, it's pervasive in fascist regimes, i.e. Jews
| policing, hating and attacking Jews, etc.
|
| Fawn is the default adaptation when an abuser is abusive
| over a long period of time, gradually going from non-
| abusive to abusive, like in an abusive marriage, from
| honeymoon to everyday scandals. The victims seek to align
| to an increasingly lopsided point of balance by changing
| themselves. And over time, it can become absurd.
| philwelch wrote:
| > A kidnapping is sudden and unexpected. No time to
| adapt. But there are abusive situations when there is
| plenty of time to adapt.
|
| To wit, the second most prominent supposed case of
| Stockholm Syndrome was the kidnapping of Patty Hearst,
| who was supposedly held captive by the SLA terrorists and
| abused for a protracted period of time before she started
| helping them rob banks.
| cstejerean wrote:
| > One of the hostages even became engaged to one of her captors
|
| Was that also because of distrusting the police?
| makeitdouble wrote:
| > She had criticized the police for pointing guns at the
| convicts while the hostages were in the line of fire and she
| had told news outlets that one of the captors tried to
| protect the hostages from being caught in the crossfire
|
| So yes, she became engaged to someone who tried to save her
| life from the police.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome#Stockhol
| m_b...
| throwaway290 wrote:
| > So yes, she became engaged to someone who tried to save
| her life from the police.
|
| Uhm, after that "someone" joined a gang and took her
| hostage in order to steal money? If that's logical that
| sounds like a problem, whether theory is shoddy science or
| not the thing is real if even you, not victim, fall into
| that delusion.
|
| People can be thankful to someone who improves things even
| if that someone creates the horrible situation in the first
| place. It's a problem and in politics too. Give people more
| comfortable life and they praise you even if your bad
| policies are the reason they famished previously. We
| remember good stuff and forget stuff that bums us out. Your
| comment exemplified that mistake.
| sparky_z wrote:
| It may be a mistake, but does it that make it a
| "syndrome"?
| throwaway290 wrote:
| where did I call it a syndrome?
|
| If you justify her marrying the guy because he saved her
| from police, and you completely sideline that he needed
| to save her from police because he took her _hostage_
| during robbery and police _came for that criminal_ ,
| sorry that's just idiotic.
|
| You can justify marrying the person who put you in direct
| danger of death for whatever irrational things like
| emotion, sexual attraction whatever, but you must
| acknowledge that it's highly illogical and quite worthy
| of a close look, if the original stockholm syndrome study
| is complete bullshit then someone else should do a better
| job at describing this bias.
|
| Edit: thankfully, it turns out all that about marrying
| the hostage taker is false. (The logic in comment I
| replied to remains stupid though)
| meigwilym wrote:
| As I said, I'm no expert. I read somewhere that it was a
| sexist response to this woman's criticisms.
|
| Wikipedia states:
|
| "He later got engaged to a woman who was not, despite what
| some state, one of the former hostages."
|
| I think the whole article can be viewed with a healthy
| scepticism.
| cwmma wrote:
| According to Wikipedia:
|
| > He (Olsson) later got engaged to a woman who was not,
| despite what some state, one of the former hostages
|
| that being said the other hostage taker, Olofsson:
|
| > He went on to meet the hostage Kristin Enmark several
| times, and their families became friends.
| zgluck wrote:
| _One of them was expected to "die at her post" by a bank
| executive._
|
| I wasn't a bank executive, it was the the social democratic
| prime minister Olof Palme.
|
| During a phone call he asked one of the hostages: "wouldn't it
| be nice to die at your post?"
|
| https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/591659
|
| (https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2021/03/the-murder-of-swedish-
| prim...)
| meigwilym wrote:
| Thanks for the correction. I don't think I would have
| believed my memory even if I had remembered that fact
| correctly!
| [deleted]
| joncrane wrote:
| Wow, this adds some context to his assassination, which is
| still one of the greatest unsolved mysteries of our time.
| delecti wrote:
| If he was that big of a jackass, maybe his murder wasn't an
| assassination at all. Maybe someone was just fed up with
| his shit.
| philwelch wrote:
| I think the murder of a prime minister is an
| assassination by definition.
| mikrl wrote:
| Do Toronto next!
|
| It should involve an otherwise emotional, feeling, social and
| empathic creature dissociating into a cold, atomized, post-social
| entity with the uncanny ability to tune out the world and
| everything in it as it buzzes towards its goal.
| floren wrote:
| Hacker News Syndrome involves saying "externalities" to a
| pathological extent.
| romesc wrote:
| Can't forget "The Danbury Shakes" [1] (clinically known as
| Erethism).
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danbury_shakes&re...
| aaron695 wrote:
| [dead]
| unstatusthequo wrote:
| I guess the Seattle Freeze [1] didn't make the cut?
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze
| iamdamian wrote:
| Something's off about this list. I can't find Brooklyn Syndrome
| on Wikipedia and think the description is confusing.
|
| The main source I found on Brooklyn Syndrome is from the Names
| journal [0], which has a nearly identical description.
|
| I wonder if this article is a direct copy of that journal article
| with lazy paraphrasing from the Atlas Obscura writers to avoid
| plagiarism. If so, this makes me wonder how much of Atlas Obscura
| was created this way.
|
| [0]: (PDF) https://ans-
| names.pitt.edu/ans/article/download/2019/2018/40...
| ctrlp wrote:
| Could easily have been named Borough Syndrome
| dghughes wrote:
| > I can't find Brooklyn Syndrome on Wikipedia
|
| Maybe nobody added it.
| pahbloo wrote:
| Maybe this entry is fake, just thrown in there to catch any
| future copycats.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_entry
| dimal wrote:
| A quick google found this [0], a citation from 1943. Seems to
| check out, but the source says it's kind of a joke term.
|
| https://www.sciencenews.org/archive/brooklyn-syndrome
| Animats wrote:
| Slow day at the clickbait farm?
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