[HN Gopher] eSIM is altering how consumers interact with operators
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eSIM is altering how consumers interact with operators
Author : signa11
Score : 105 points
Date : 2023-07-27 05:43 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.opensignal.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.opensignal.com)
| nottorp wrote:
| I don't understand the enthusiasm about esims. Is the US cell
| phone market more predatory than i thought?
|
| Around here, as long as the phone isn't locked to a carrier [1],
| you just swap the physical sim and have new service.
|
| With the esim you suddenly need the phone manufacturer's
| approval. Perhaps masked as a software incompatibility.
|
| Swaps take hours to days.
|
| What is the advantage to the customer here?
|
| [1] And carriers are required to unlock your phone for a nominal
| fee when the contract period ends.
| zoky wrote:
| For travel, it's great. When I went to Germany four years ago,
| getting data on my phone without paying an exorbitant roaming
| fee involved waiting until I got to Germany, buying a SIM card
| at a train station, then finding WiFi access so I could
| complete the registration process, which involved a video call
| with a Deutsche Post agent to verify my passport for some
| reason. The last time I went a few months ago, I bought an eSIM
| before I left, and it activated automatically as soon as I
| landed in Europe.
|
| Granted, I think a large factor in the hassle the previous time
| was due to German regulations involved in getting a phone
| number, but since I didn't want or need a German phone number
| it was just unnecessary hoops to jump through. Now I can buy an
| eSIM from any number of countries that is valid throughout the
| EU with way less hassle, and I can get service from whatever
| provider I like rather than having to depend on whichever SIM
| card I happen to find at the local shop.
|
| I've also never had an eSIM swap take hours to days--they've
| always been effectively instant for me. When my phone was
| damaged and I couldn't get the eSIM transferred to a temporary
| phone while I got it repaired, I was surprised by how easy it
| was to generate a new eSIM online. If I had lost my phone, and
| I had a spare phone to use, getting service transferred with an
| eSIM would be a matter of minutes, rather than hours or days to
| get a replacement physical SIM.
| nawgz wrote:
| > you just swap the physical sim and have new service.
|
| If I'm traveling, I don't really want to have to manage my
| physical SIM while it's outside the phone. With eSIM and a
| service like Airalo, I can use the airport wifi to get data on
| my phone (or do it ahead of time), not have to pull my current
| SIM out of my phone, and the price is really low too. I use it
| every time I travel to Europe.
|
| It's true the time delay is a little bit annoying but it seems
| to me the tradeoff is "preserve physical SIM" vs "wait
| 10min-2h". Pretty fair trade, no?
| afavour wrote:
| To me the advantage of eSIM is coupled with dual SIMs,
| something that wasn't very common in the US until the arrival
| of eSIM. Now when traveling I can purchase an eSIM instead of
| pay my operator a ton of roaming fees. But I can still keep my
| main SIM active, just with data disabled.
|
| It's not that any of this was impossible without eSIMs but it's
| created a new market of online-only SIM sellers. Before eSIMs
| I'd have to be without data when I first arrived somewhere new
| while I buy a local PAYG SIM. Don't have to worry about that
| any more.
|
| > What is the advantage to the customer here?
|
| Outside of dual SIM applications I don't think it's a whole lot
| more complicated than online retail being considerably more
| convenient than in-person. When switching providers you often
| have to time it correctly: make sure the plan is expiring on
| your old SIM when you put in the new one. Having a SIM arrive
| instantly makes that a lot easier. Plus it's just a lot easier
| to make a spontaneous purchase.
| avgDev wrote:
| I recently traveled to Poland. Instead of paying T-Mobile like
| $50 for limited data and minutes, I bought Orange prepaid plan.
|
| I did not have to visit a physical store and it cost me about
| $5.
|
| I landed. Opened the app. Got the esim and was on my way. I
| then could alternate between sims easily.
|
| I imagine if I had to travel between other continents same
| steps would apply. Cell service is quite expensive in the US.
| nottorp wrote:
| ... you could have picked a sim at the airport couldn't you?
|
| I have to point out that my question still stands. The only
| ones speaking in favour of esims seem to be USers traveling
| abroad.
| avgDev wrote:
| But it is a bit silly if I can just download an app. No
| need to search for a store in airport one might be
| unfamiliar with.
| bunga-bunga wrote:
| > What is the advantage to the customer here?
|
| I currently have 5 eSIMs installed on my phone and I can switch
| at anytime without having to find/carry the SIM cards.
|
| Also in theory if I lose my phone I can just download them
| again. In practice this might not be as smooth though.
|
| If you change phone more often than you change SIM, you're
| right that eSIMs provide zero advantage to you.
| 310260 wrote:
| No carrier in the US charges for an unlock. So long as a device
| is paid off in full, all 3 carriers will unlock devices for
| free.
| menus wrote:
| This is misleading. Carriers can impose restrictions on paid
| off phones like being subscribed to them for x months. My
| phone unlocked after 6 months.
|
| It is only free and instant if you are in the military.
| flangola7 wrote:
| Then why are Verizon Pixels unusable with other carriers?
| jrmg wrote:
| What do you mean by "you suddenly need the phone manufacturer's
| approval"?
|
| I have not experienced this and I've now used a few different
| eSims on my iPhone.
|
| [edit: at home in the USA and when traveling internationally]
|
| [edit 2: people are downvoting this, but it's a genuine
| question!]
| nottorp wrote:
| > What do you mean by "you suddenly need the phone
| manufacturer's approval"?
|
| Are all esims supported by your phone? Even if it's
| theoretically a standard.
| joshstrange wrote:
| The think I hate most about eSIM is we kept around the idea of
| SIM locking (EUICC lock, also referred to as "carrier visibility"
| or "carrier reveal").
|
| I bought a bunch of refurbished/renewed iPads for my business and
| 7 of them were EUICC locked to AT&T. You could put any physical
| SIM in the iPad and it would work but it would not let you use a
| non-AT&T eSIM. AT&T refused to talk to me unless I had an account
| with them, I did, and then told me those iPads were not in their
| system, there was nothing they could do, and I should see about
| returning them and getting new/replacement ones.
|
| I spent multiple hours on the phone and on their support forums
| and got nowhere (over the span of 2-3+ weeks). Finally I filed an
| FCC complaint and the issue was fully resolved in 3 days.
|
| FCC/CFPB complaints are great tools to use and I recommend
| reaching for them sooner rather than later. I have examples of
| being jerked around by companies for a period of weeks or longer
| and then the issue being fully resolved in a matter of days after
| filing a complaint. It's my new "complain on twitter to get
| better/faster service".
| jwong_ wrote:
| Do you have details on what kind of complaint you filed?
|
| I have an iPhone with a similar problem -- physical SIMs work
| with any carrier. However, T-mobile ESIM is the only one I've
| been able to get work. T-mobile insists the phone has no lock
| and tells me to go to Apple. Apple tells me to go to T-mobile.
| End result is I can't activate any ESIMs outside of T-mobile's.
| joshstrange wrote:
| Yes, it was a little tricky since there wasn't a clear path.
| Here is what I did:
|
| 1. Go here https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-
| us/requests/new?tic...
|
| 2. Phone Issues: Availability
|
| 3. Phone Availability Sub Issue: No Service Available
|
| 4. Your Phone Method: Wireless (cell phone/other mobile
| device)
|
| The rest of the fields should be self-explanatory. I
| mentioned EUICC lock in my description and a few days later I
| got a call from AT&T and then a few days after that it was
| fixed.
| housemusicfan wrote:
| Why do you suspect this is T-Mobile's fault? It's equally
| probable they are the only carrier with an eSIM provisioning
| system that actually works.
| voyagerfan5761 wrote:
| First-hand experience tells me that Verizon has eSIM
| working, at least for their free trials. "You can
| participate in Verizon Free Trial with an eSIM-compatible
| smartphone." (https://www.verizon.com/support/verizon-free-
| trial-faqs/)
|
| My phone doesn't support the bands necessary for VZ
| service, but it was worth trying.
| 310260 wrote:
| This type of perma-locking was only an issue for iPads with
| Apple SIM as I recall. Not the GSMA eSIM technology that is
| used in devices now.
| joshstrange wrote:
| I'm not saying you are wrong but these were 9th Gen iPads
| which say they support eSIM.
| Scalene2 wrote:
| Guess this is the end of having 8 SIM cards on a dual SIM phone
| with one of those really cool adapters. www.simore.com
| spiralpolitik wrote:
| No issues with eSIM on my end. I switched my number as soon as it
| was supported 3-4 iPhones ago and have migrated it myself between
| devices on each upgrade with no issues. Similar for my iPads. No
| issues moving eSIM between iPads on upgrade.
|
| Traveling has also been super easy. I use the app to provision an
| eSim for the country I'm going to and activate it just after I
| land or via the plane WiFi if available.
|
| The main issue with eSIM at the moment seems to be at the VMO
| level. A lot of VMOs don't offer eSIM because their parent
| carrier won't allow it. This is probably an area for the
| regulators to look into to make sure that the market stays
| competitive.
| Isolus wrote:
| I find it inconvenient that pluggable eSIMS are so hard to get.
| In my opinion they combine the best of both worlds. You can
| download profiles without wating for SIM cards and you can put
| them in different phones.
| joecool1029 wrote:
| Just exchange a slightly unreasonable about of money for a
| esim.me card. They can be managed on most Android devices and
| swapped even into a featurephone (read my comment before this
| though for some potential caveats).
| joecool1029 wrote:
| This article mostly doesn't apply to the US market. Let me
| explain. There's two kinds of lock-in possible with eSIM devices.
| The first is the standard carrier subsidy lock that AT&T and
| T-Mobile do with phones sold through them. Verizon doesn't do
| this due to the old agreement to buy Band 13 spectrum. This is
| what most people understand, and while it's pretty easy to just
| ask to have the phone unlocked by the carrier, most won't do
| this.
|
| The other kind of lock-in AT&T and Verizon do, but T-Mobile does
| not. This is relating specifically to ESIM (euicc) and it being
| paired to 'approved' IMEI numbers. AT&T runs IMEI whitelists that
| only allow devices they sell to be used on the network and these
| lists also contain what technologies it's allowed to access.
| Verizon has an approved device list, but I believe their physical
| SIM cards will work in any phone with band support and voLTE
| profiles available, much better situation since they've gone
| CDMAless. What they will _not_ allow for eSIM is activation using
| just the EID number of the ESIM itself. They maintain a database
| of devices with eSIM and what the matching IMEI is supposed to
| be. If you have a device not in that list, it won 't activate.
| The standard explicitly mentions that collecting the IMEI is
| optional for activation: https://www.gsma.com/esim/wp-
| content/uploads/2021/07/SGP.22-... (page 115)
|
| I have a device called an esim.me. They are kind of expensive but
| it will give you support for up to eSIM profiles on a removable
| card (like an 'normal' SIM card, but it's a smartcard that
| supports flipping through these profiles). In the US it's only
| currently possible to activate these using T-Mobile, and unless
| you use an eSIM iphone or a specific model of Samsung phone, you
| have to call support and give them the EID number to activate it.
| I can then physically swap this 'esim' between my devices,
| anything that supports USIM (basically 3G and later devices, even
| old featurephone from 2007 it works in).
| masfuerte wrote:
| You have a typo: "support for up to eSIM profiles on a
| removable card". How many? Great comment though
| KingFelix wrote:
| 15!
| perfmode wrote:
| I've had great experiences using Airalo in Europe.
|
| Just download the iOS app, buy a 50 GB plan on a regional Euro
| eSim, and install the eSim.
|
| That's it. Seamless roaming across NL, DE, AT, CZ, CH.
| kotaKat wrote:
| Meanwhile, small/private operators can't even leverage eSIM.
| We're trying to run a CBRS-based LTE deployment in-house and
| can't find a single company willing to work with us to get eSIM
| provisioning capabilities because we can't just make eSIMs like
| we can physical ones -- thanks to eSIM's fairly obtuse
| cryptogatekeeping by the GSMA, we can't do anything without their
| blessings.
|
| Every single company that we've found that claims to do small-
| scale eSIM personalization/SM-DP/etc services just... won't
| answer our sales forms. Monogoto, Teal, Globalgig, Smartjac...
| nobody.
|
| EDIT: To note, of course, if we were willing to spend tens of
| thousands directly with a manufacturer or company that actually
| does this stuff for a living (selling the whole core/radios/etc)
| I'm sure they'd bend over backwards, but we know how to deploy
| open5gs and buy eNodeBs that work in our system and deploy them
| as-is (up to and including abusing former Pollen Mobile gear) --
| we already have a dozen or so devices on via physical SIM in our
| office.
| KingFelix wrote:
| Kotakat!! I attempted to ping you on discord but it wouldn't
| let me. I found your discord posts super helpful with Pollen
| gear! Thank you for that. I might be able to help with esims,
| asking someone right now. Are you doing data only? or ims too?
| Vibgyor5 wrote:
| As a digital nomad + business traveler, eSims are total
| misdirection and more cumbersome experience:
|
| Case in point - I stay in Country A (home country) for 3 months,
| Country B for 2 months, and then C for 3 months, back to A. Until
| now I used an Android with Dual-SIM (physical) and all I had to
| do was: put in physical-SIM whenever I am in and call it a day.
| With iPhone and more and more phone manufacturers praising about
| eSIMs, not anymore.
|
| Country B/C/D etc may have extremely complex or underwhelming
| infrastructure/process to support e-SIMs. Lots of issues with
| "network reception not working" to troubleshooting the signup
| process. Heck, there are additional charges in some countries for
| eSIM vs. physical sim.
| jrmg wrote:
| Is your complaint that activation is troublesome and
| bureaucratic? Isn't that also true with physical SIMs?
|
| With eSIM, you should be able to just have all three eSIMs
| stored on the phone, marking the one you want to use as active,
| and switching whenever you want, with no need to carry around
| physical bits of plastic any more.
|
| This has been my experience with my iPhone 13 when traveling.
| joecool1029 wrote:
| > Is your complaint that activation is troublesome and
| bureaucratic? Isn't that also true with physical SIMs?
|
| No? Normally SIM card activated by carrier before sending to
| you, like a cable/satellite card would be. It just works when
| you put it in devices, can be swapped around between devices
| without a secondary internet connection. Same if you buy
| prepaid sim at a store, many countries you can just buy and
| activate at checkout, then put in phone, no carrier helper
| apps needed.
|
| > With eSIM, you should be bale to just have all three eSims
| stored on the phone, marking the one you want to use as
| active, and switching whenever you want, with no need to
| carry around physical bits of plastic any more.
|
| If wanting to change devices you need an internet connection
| and hope activation app/site isn't down, call on the phone to
| manually transfer (which requires a working phone service),
| or go into a store. Many carriers will not activate eSIM
| devices they don't recognize the IMEI of. The situation is
| only fairly seamless currently with iPhone in the US, most
| international carriers don't support the automatic iPhone
| transfer stuff. It's kind of a mess everywhere else on
| Android.
| jrmg wrote:
| FWIW, my experience with eSIMs has been identical to my
| experience receiving physical SIMs. Instead of inserting
| it, I scanned a QR code. It then activated much as any
| physical SIM activates the first time you put it in a
| phone.
|
| People are complaining so much that I guess maybe I've had
| just good luck with carriers?
|
| Fair point on changing devices. I've never tried that and I
| imagine you might have to get the carrier to issue a new
| eSIM, which is might be an annoying ordeal. It's _meant_ to
| be possible to do it easily (see e.g.
| https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780 - but that does
| say it works only for "some carriers").
| dv_dt wrote:
| Last time I traveled to a EU country from the US I tried an
| travel esim service. For a single sample of an unlocked iPhone
| and and Airalo app it worked flawlessly. Not affiliated with
| the app, but I may use it again and am curious about different
| experiences.
|
| I bought the esim about a week ahead and installed it and the
| validity period auto activiated when I turned on the profile in
| reach of a valid network.
| izacus wrote:
| I had a carrier outright take 40$ on eSIM and then fail
| provisioning because Pixel phones weren't on their whitelist.
| They refused to return the money or provision my backup Samsung
| phone.
|
| This shit never happened with physical SIMs.
| daggersandscars wrote:
| eSIMs can also make it easier to switch phones. Want to try a
| different OS? Going hiking and don't want to risk your nice
| phone? Traveling?
|
| A great thing about this is you can have multiple phones
| preconfigured for specific purposes and just move the line to the
| phone when needed. On one carrier, moving between phones takes a
| minute or two.
|
| I eventually switched to Android from iOS after setting up one of
| each and switching between them.
| adrianmsmith wrote:
| Surely this is the same with real SIMs? I mean, assuming you
| have the "SIM tool" available, you can move the SIM from one
| phone to another in a minute or so?
| daggersandscars wrote:
| The time I tried this in with my previous carrier with a
| smartphone, I had to call the cellular provider and get the
| phone "authorized" before it would work. I don't know if this
| was specific to the carrier, specific to the phone, or to the
| era (~10 years ago).
|
| With my current carrier, switching physical SIMs does not
| activate the phone on the service. I have to use an app.
| Perhaps this is because I use an MVNO? eSIMs make this
| easier.
|
| I had no problem swapping SIMs for basic phone service in the
| pre-smartphone era.
| daveoc64 wrote:
| These pros and cons you list are all down to policies that
| a carrier may enact.
|
| With a physical SIM, they can't stop you putting it into
| another phone, and there are no good technical reasons why
| you shouldn't be able to swap a SIM into a compatible phone
| and have it work immediately. That's how it's worked in
| many countries since GSM came out in the 90s.
|
| With eSIMs, you may need to contact the carrier to transfer
| the SIM to a new device. This is a contact point with the
| carrier - and one where they can add barriers or fees.
| ezfe wrote:
| While I am an eSIM proponent, what you're describing could
| happen with eSIMs as well and is unrelated to the format of
| the SIM.
|
| For example, I use AT&T and before eSIM I could transfer my
| physical SIM between phones without calling AT&T. Now, with
| eSIM I can still transfer my eSIM between phones without
| calling AT&T so nothing has really changed.
| devilbunny wrote:
| Can you transfer it between phones if one of them isn't
| working? This is an issue I have actually faced in the
| past that was no problem at all with a physical SIM. If
| I'm outside the US, my phone dies/is crushed, and I need
| to be back up and working: right now, I just pull my
| backup phone out of my bag, put the SIM in (assuming it
| isn't crushed or dead), and within a few minutes, I'm
| back up and running. If I have to go find WiFi to be able
| to get to Verizon's website to start the eSIM process,
| that's much more of a challenge. No 2FA because... my
| phone's dead and I can't get a text. No Verizon stores to
| show them the corpse of my old phone.
|
| If there were some way to pre-transfer the eSIM and only
| activate it if needed, it might be a different story.
| ezfe wrote:
| Not sure about AT&T because I've never done it, but with
| Visible (another phone in my family) I can login to the
| app and install a new eSIM again.
|
| It really does depend on carrier policy I would say
| rawgabbit wrote:
| I am on ATT and have been reluctant to switch to eSIM. Is
| there any gotchas I should watch out for?
| Sylamore wrote:
| I was doing the same thing with physical SIMs for over a decade
| before eSIMs even existed. I even could use SIM trays to make
| the same one fit in different form factors.
| benkruger wrote:
| I have been using eSIMS's for years while traveling. The Internet
| is unlocked for my entire family for next to nothing. The prices
| get less expensive every year as well. IMO.
|
| The idea of a phone number is antiquated and I suspect we'll see
| accelerated movement with a digital identity that you can attach
| to a stored value to get data for competitive rates.
| jaclaz wrote:
| Sorry to be the (usual) pessimist, but with a physical SIM, if
| your phone breaks, you can take the SIM and put in another phone
| (a spare one, a borrowed one), with the eSIM, this becomes
| complex or impossible:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32138466
| jrmg wrote:
| eSIM has been working great for me when traveling to the UK and
| Canada from the USA.
|
| I have an iPhone 13, which allows up to two eSIMs or one physical
| SIM and one eSIM to be active simultaneously.
|
| The first time I did this, my primary account was a T-Mobile
| Connect SIM that didn't allow out of USA roaming. By the second
| time, I'd transferred to a Boost Mobile eSIM, which, again,
| doesn't allow out of USA roaming.
|
| When traveling I just bought a data eSIM from a random provider
| ('BNE' and 'GlobaleSIM'). They have different pricing for varying
| combinations of data vs. time - a fixed amount per day, a fixed
| amount with a month time limit, a fixed amount with no time limit
| etc. They're very cheap compared to how things used to be (I
| think I paid about $15 for 3GB over two weeks in the UK, and $9
| for 1GB of data with no time limit in Canada).
|
| One thing I did not expect is that my US number kept working!
| With WiFi calling switched on, the non-roaming T-Mobile and Boost
| accounts just kept working by using VoIP over the data SIM's
| internet connection.
| BigBalli wrote:
| eSIMs are a great invention. I had been swapping SIM cards for
| decades and life is so much better now. I can receive messages on
| both numbers and when I travel abroad I simply toggle between
| them as primary.
| kevincox wrote:
| The main problem with eSIM is that they are still little HSM
| modules controlled by the carrier. This results in most of the
| problems that people are complaining about in this thread.
|
| 1. You can't swap the SIM yourself because the HSM is designed
| not to reveal the secrets.
|
| 2. You can't provision offline because the carrier needs to
| encrypt the payload to the target HSM. In theory I guess if the
| target phone was known it could be provisioned once and uploaded
| repeated (for fast eSIM swapping between different SIMs in the
| same device). But there may also be some form of replay
| protection.
|
| What I would like to see is that the eSIM is just a config file
| with connection info and credentials. Then the device itself is
| in charge of connecting, sharing and whatever else. The user is
| in control and can transfer or swap as they see fit.
|
| The downside would be that this data is easier to steal if it
| isn't in a TPM but no one said that you couldn't put it into a
| TPM. It is just user choice now. For example the keys could be
| uploaded to the TPM much like today. Or it could be encrypted
| with a TPM key and stored on the device (this would allow easily
| changing eSIMs or transferring between devices). You could even
| do things like escrow a copy to a trusted backup location so that
| you can restore the eSIM to a new phone if you lose or break the
| old phone. (Although you may need to revoke the old creds if they
| are at-risk of being stolen from the old device.)
|
| The carrier should be a dumb pipe. I don't like how much control
| they have over my hardware.
| NoZebra120vClip wrote:
| What does "HSM" stand for?
| [deleted]
| joecool1029 wrote:
| Hardware Security Module. Basically an embedded device that
| stores cryptographic keys and performs cryptographic
| operations (like encrypting/decrypting/signing).
|
| EDIT: HN is throttling me for responding too quickly so I'm
| responding to the comment below this. eSIM uses UICC
| hardware, not unlike a cryptographic smartcard (think PIV or
| OpenPGP smartcards). It's built upon the same kind of cards
| as physical UICC (SIM) cards are. You have a CPU, some
| memory, and the ability to store applets usually written in
| java. Where eSIM/eUICC is different is it is an
| implementation of downloadable SIM profiles. The standard
| does allow for, and there are physical removable eSIM's made.
| The phone controls profiles on them using apdu commands at
| the low-leve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card_applic
| ation_protoco... . Check my prior comments on the matter.
| NoZebra120vClip wrote:
| I was asking the GP kevincox, but anyway:
|
| What kind of physical hardware is an eSIM composed of?
| notmypenguin wrote:
| esim = yuck. I abhor the notion. Very political direction to
| hijack us all.
| _nalply wrote:
| This all is a huge boondoggle to keep telcos afloat.
|
| I don't understand why cell phones just connect to the internet
| and then have all services.
|
| Phone numbers as an identification? Meh.
| saos wrote:
| My main line is physical sim and my burner is an eSim. It's been
| great!
| [deleted]
| klausa wrote:
| One interesting thing that eSIMs enable is geographical arbitrage
| by the carriers.
|
| When I was visiting South Korea last year, the (cheap enough)
| eSIM I got from one of those "buy sims for your travel!" services
| was actually from a carrier from Hong Kong.
|
| Similarly, when I visited Japan this year, the eSIM I got was
| from a South Korean carrier.
|
| Can't do that if you need a physical SIM!
| smallerfish wrote:
| Actually you can. My "published" phone number is parked at a
| voip firm, and I get calls on that number over data (fairly few
| real ones, since my friends tend to mostly use whatsapp to
| arrange social stuff.) When I travel, I buy a 25GB-for-a-month
| physical sim from 3UK, sold on the US Amazon site. The only
| downside is that you can't top up the data using the same
| pricing unless you're physically in the UK, so I have to get a
| new sim each trip.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| "Wifi calling" is pretty cool if your operator supports and you
| got 2 sims.
| hattmall wrote:
| Can you explain what you mean by this?
| joecool1029 wrote:
| Having wifi calling on your home carrier means you can use
| the data of a cheap international carrier while you're
| traveling to make calls with your home carrier and not
| incur roaming charges.
|
| This is because your home carrier basically VPN's to your
| home carrier's network over whatever data connection it
| has, so it's just using the cheap international data off
| the second card to make a VOIP call.
| lozenge wrote:
| Wifi calling sends calls (sent and received) over the
| Internet as UDP packets. So you can call somebody in your
| home country using your home country SIM, but the data is
| actually using your holiday SIM's data allowance. As
| roaming and "international" rates are crazy.
| NoZebra120vClip wrote:
| Just to clarify:
|
| WiFi calling uses an 802.11 connection nearby, instead of
| a cell tower, and sends UDP packets over the WiFi
| network. (I don't know how far they transit the Internet;
| I assumed that they went to your mobile provider and
| entered the PSTN there.)
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_Access_Network
|
| In this scenario, your "home country SIM" is providing
| you a phone number and provider's authorization to
| activate and use WiFi calling, but your voice calls
| aren't actually using the SIM or a cell tower.
|
| Neither is your "holiday SIM" using data for this call:
| you're free to use that data allowance for browsing,
| streaming, general Internet use; it won't be taken up by
| phone calls.
| fatfingerd wrote:
| It's not really just WIFI calling. A data network and a
| WiFi network are all the same to a UDP packet and your
| phone can have settings to prefer one or the other so
| that you can use the data plan you want as if the WIFI
| were setup.
| 2143 wrote:
| What if I go abroad for a few days and need a temporary SIM from
| there, but my phone only supports eSIM?
|
| With eSIM there's a tighter coupling between the phone and
| carrier. Not sure if I like that.
|
| > Apple's move to make eSIM the only option for iPhone 14 range
| in the U.S. is propelling the worldwide shift towards eSIM
| technology.
|
| Speaking of which, I know for a fact that the iPhone 14 sold in
| India has a SIM card slot (eSIM also supported).
| throw3837374 wrote:
| The iPhone 14 sold in China has dual physical SIMs and no eSIM
| support.
| ericpauley wrote:
| There are companies (won't endorse any in particular) that will
| let you buy data eSIMs for virtually any country. They can be
| downloaded before you leave or using airport WiFi, and usually
| activate automatically when you arrive.
| adeelk93 wrote:
| I'll endorse one - been using Airalo for a few years, works
| great. I prefer using that app to finding someone at the
| airport to buy a SIM card from.
| zarzavat wrote:
| It's very expensive though, compared to a local SIM. It's
| not really a replacement for local SIMs, it's more like a
| good international roaming plan from your home country,
| more convenience at a higher cost.
| gorbypark wrote:
| I've always assumed this, too. I am currently in Andorra
| and the biggest prepaid plan from Andorra Telecom (the
| only mobile operator) is 19EUR for 3gb of data (and 60
| minutes of talk, which I don't need). It was simple to
| get using their website and an eSIM.
|
| Just checked Airalo and they have 3gb for $10.50 usd!
| That's like 9.50EUR or something and Airalo always seems
| to have a 15% off coupon (maybe first order only?). They
| also have larger plans. I am going to switch over as soon
| as I run out of data on my Andorra Telecom plan.
| ericpauley wrote:
| Airalo is $5 for Europe for a week. I can't imagine any
| savings over that that would outweigh the convenience...
| msh wrote:
| If you want a lot of data arialo is not really
| competitive.
| Vibgyor5 wrote:
| Its all relative -- I paid $10 for a month in Germany as
| a resident (comes with full EU roaming). Prices in other
| EU countries are even cheaper. It took 1 minute to plug
| it in.
|
| Also, travelers from Western countries might not really
| be ecstatic about paying for paying $$ for something that
| comes with zero upside to physical SIM.
| adeelk93 wrote:
| People pay more for digital media than physical media in
| other contexts for the convenience. I'm not going to buy
| a DVD on amazon to save a few dollars.
|
| It's subjective, I'm sure there's still people buying
| DVDs, but you can't say that there's "zero upside"
| laurencerowe wrote:
| The $5 plan only gets you 1GB of data. I usually get
| through much more than that while travelling.
|
| Last time I was in the UK ended up walking into a
| Vodafone shop and got a physical SIM and 30 day 20GB pay
| as you go plan for PS10. That would cost $74 on Airalo.
|
| I'm looking forward to eSIM being more widely supported
| as its definitely more convenient. In the last year most
| US carriers have started offering it on their PAYG plans.
| zarzavat wrote:
| If you are a tourist for a few days then I understand
| completely not wanting to waste time looking for a local
| SIM.
|
| On the other hand, if you are a regular visitor to a
| country, or you are meeting a local who can hook you up,
| or you are staying for a while, then it may be worth
| getting a local SIM. Some countries make it easy, others
| make it difficult. In UK for example it's very easy to
| get a SIM and the local prices are about half of Airalo
| (which doesn't seem to offer an unlimited data plan).
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| I'll endorse Airalo, they're amazing. I use them religiously
| for temp eSIMs while traveling. Would never go back to
| physical sims.
| prennert wrote:
| I tried them when I visited the US. It did not work for me
| at all and I needed to rely on wifi instead.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Recommend T-mobile prepaid pass when you're in the
| states.
| zamadatix wrote:
| Just got back from 2 separate trips to Europe with an iPhone 14
| pro (eSIM only US model). The first trip I landed in Germany,
| remembered I needed a phone plan when I landed, and got a 1
| month unlimited plan on DT using the airport Wi-Fi and was good
| to go. For the 2nd trip to France I downloaded a short traveler
| plan eSIM to my phone before leaving and activated when I got
| off the plane.
|
| In both cases it was easier than dealing with physical SIMs.
| Also there was no concern about how many slots the phone had,
| it can even store extra non-active eSIMs on top of having your
| two active ones.
| 2143 wrote:
| Okay! That's reassuring :)
| Shank wrote:
| I went to Japan and used Ubigi, which has service basically
| anywhere, to add dual-SIM and have data. I also used Airalo.
| Both worked great with e-SIM, and it was painless to get data
| activated and working. There was also a large variety of plans
| to choose from. I really liked the whole experience!
| ezfe wrote:
| > With eSIM there's a tighter coupling between the phone and
| carrier. Not sure if I like that.
|
| I'm not sure what you mean? Carriers already have the ability
| to lock a phone to their network, regardless of eSIM or not.
| martin8412 wrote:
| No they don't? They can lock it if they sold it to you, but
| they can't lock arbitrary devices.
| ledauphin wrote:
| how do eSIMs enable locking arbitrary devices to a network?
| ezfe wrote:
| Yes they literally can lock any device you plug their SIM
| into, if they want to. They used to, but it's uncommon now.
| londons_explore wrote:
| The dream of esim is great.
|
| The reality not so much. I tried it a few months ago and found:
|
| * Scanning the QR code to install the esim requires internet - it
| can't activate the sim card to get internet unless it already has
| internet. Seems like a bit of an oversight!
|
| * Once provisioned, the mobile network doesn't actually activate
| your account for a few hours. Kinda takes away the benefit of
| 'one click and go'.
|
| * The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G via esim, although
| the phone itself supports 5G if you use a physical sim on the
| same mobile network. Nobody on the forums has managed to make it
| work.
|
| * If you damage the phone, there is no way to transfer the esim
| to a new phone. I assumed it would transfer over automatically as
| part of backup/restore, either via cable or cloud backup, but no.
|
| * The mobile network has no ability to transfer the sim over
| either. Apparently their software doesn't allow it. The only way
| is to transfer to a physical sim, wait for it to arrive, then
| mark the physical sim as lost, and then reorder an esim. Great -
| that takes 4 days, during which you have no service.
|
| Most of these flaws are problems with the mobile network's
| policies and processes. But some are with the esim spec (not
| allowing backup/restore, not having enough info in the QR code to
| connect to a network without internet).
|
| Overall, esims have so far caused me hours of frustration and
| little benefit.
| liminalsunset wrote:
| There's another issue with eSIM: In Canada, all of the carriers
| offering it charge $10 to provision an eSIM. You get a little
| plastic card with a QR code on it, and once provisioned, it's
| totally useless.
|
| Want to switch your phone? $10 and you have to go to the
| carrier physically.
|
| The iPhone feature where you can transfer an eSIM appears to
| work with carrier support, and the carriers here I've tried all
| don't support it so the process fails.
| masklinn wrote:
| > In Canada
|
| There's your problem. Not much to do with esims.
| mig39 wrote:
| My kids use e-sims from Orange France on their iPhones in
| Canada. 365-day great for kids that are always around WiFi,
| but need data once in a while. I basically pay for 5 gigs and
| it lasts a year. Roams on Telus, Bell, Rogers on 5G.
|
| I think for 3 kids, I pay about 10% of what I would pay for
| them to have monthly plans from a Canadian carrier.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Canadian wireless carriers and ISPs (Robellus[1]) suck
| tremendously. I'm not surprised that they managed to make
| eSims suck as well.
|
| [1] http://www.realfairforcanada.ca
| LASR wrote:
| What is most frustrating about this is that they insist on
| mailing the QR code card to you after you pay up on the
| carrier website. (as-in postage, in an envelope, arrives in 5
| biz days).
|
| Why not just show me the QR code on my computer right after I
| pay your fee? It's quite ridiculous.
| Hamuko wrote:
| I've had similar experiences, although not quite as
| expensive. I think it was either 3EUR or 4EUR to get a new
| eSIM, which you would do by logging to the carrier's website,
| clicking a button and scanning the resulting QR code PNG.
| Absolutely nothing about the process warrants that cost and
| obviously the operator is blocking from using the iPhone-to-
| iPhone eSIM transfer tool.
|
| I called up my operator before I decided to switch to another
| operator. Got a whole slew of excuses for it. "Transfers are
| blocked for security purposes." Didn't figure out a security
| benefit for the surcharge. "You'd have to pay for a new
| physical SIM card too", except I wouldn't because physical
| SIM cards are REUSABLE. Tried to use this line of reasoning
| against the operator by asking to not order a new eSIM but
| reuse the eSIM I already had, but no dice.
|
| Thankfully I managed to find a phone plan that was cheaper
| than the one I had, so I fixed my eSIM issue and got slight
| savings on top. Of course after I signed the new contract, my
| existing operator decided to ring me up and butter me up
| again. At least this time they admitted that it was just pure
| rent-seeking and they surely could've given me a free eSIM.
| Too bad my mind had been made at this point.
| ezfe wrote:
| You've already acknowledged that most of the issues you
| encountered are specific to your phone or carrier. For example,
| eSIM works fine with 5G on iPhones and in my experience there
| is no delay to activate an account. I've set up multiple phones
| on eSIMs and never experienced something like that.
|
| Regarding backing up, yes it would be nice if you could backup
| your eSIM alongside the rest of your phone contents, however
| the real solution is just making it easy to provision a new
| eSIM.
|
| In my experience, if I need a new eSIM I just open the carrier
| app and reinstall it to the phone.
| wux wrote:
| I think they've got a fair point, though, that a number of
| those issues with the eSIM reflect reliance on factors
| outside their control (for example, whether or not one's
| carrier has competent backend systems) where before swapping
| a SIM card was a physical action within their control. It's a
| frustrating feeling when a new technology takes something out
| of your hands in the name of convenience but, far from being
| seamless, actually introduces problems that are entirely out
| of your hands to fix.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| The carriers are the problem, though. In many countries
| there's at most one eSIM carrier, some don't allow it for
| pay-as-you-go and their implementation is often generally
| poor.
|
| There's very little a carrier can get wrong with a SIM.
| amluto wrote:
| I wasted a couple hours dealing with the fact that my carrier
| wants an ICCID to activate an eSIM, but iPhone eSIMs don't
| have (or at least don't show) an ICCID until after
| activation.
|
| My carrier literally has a webpage explaining how to do it on
| an iPhone, and the page is blatantly wrong. Good job testing.
| samtho wrote:
| There is an ICCID, that is usually burned into the eSIM.
| However, SIM and eSIM are actually a tiny embedded system
| with a rudimentary Java byte code interpreter and you can
| insert firmware to dynamically swap between the reported
| ICCID. Usually this is a trick employed by MVNOs to swap
| between profiles based on the available networks to select
| the MNO that the MVNO has a more favorable contract with.
| _rs wrote:
| Does this ID change if you provision a new eSIM? Would it
| be worthwhile to activate an eSIM on my phone and write
| down this ICCID for safe keeping in the future? Is there
| any other way to get this ID without having an active eSIM?
| drdaeman wrote:
| > The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G via esim, although
| the phone itself supports 5G if you use a physical sim on the
| same mobile network
|
| I suppose it's an operator problem. 5G with eSIM most certainly
| works on T-Mobile US. I've also had 5G working on AT&T Mexico
| eSIM when I was in 5G coverage area (very spotty). Can't tell
| about travel eSIMs (such as Airalo) as I haven't used those in
| areas with 5G coverage.
|
| > Once provisioned, the mobile network doesn't actually
| activate your account for a few hours.
|
| Worked nearly instantly for me every time I've tried.
| Definitely must be a sloppy operator or some error during
| provisioning.
| varispeed wrote:
| That sounds like something an overly eager and feared manager
| pushed through because it sounds nice, you know "eSim" and
| there was nobody to tell him / her it's a stupid idea or maybe
| there was, but got shut down.
|
| Many organisations suffer this problem and there is really no
| good solutions to that.
| aaomidi wrote:
| Esims do not need internet or QR codes. A carrier can just push
| a sim to you as a notification.
| callalex wrote:
| Push how? Over Bluetooth/NFC? Or do you mean over the
| internet?
| ThePowerOfFuet wrote:
| Let's go over these one by one:
|
| > Scanning the QR code to install the esim requires internet -
| it can't activate the sim card to get internet unless it
| already has internet. Seems like a bit of an oversight!
|
| Not an oversight at all. The key exchange has to happen online,
| as key material is generated on-device, not delivered in the QR
| code.
|
| > Once provisioned, the mobile network doesn't actually
| activate your account for a few hours. Kinda takes away the
| benefit of 'one click and go'.
|
| That is absolutely your operator's issue; I've been up and
| running in 60 seconds.
|
| > The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G via esim, although
| the phone itself supports 5G if you use a physical sim on the
| same mobile network. Nobody on the forums has managed to make
| it work.
|
| Which phone is this? I get 5G via eSIM on my Pixel 5, and it
| works fine on all 5G-capable iPhones too.
|
| > If you damage the phone, there is no way to transfer the esim
| to a new phone. I assumed it would transfer over automatically
| as part of backup/restore, either via cable or cloud backup,
| but no.
|
| Nope; the secret key never leaves the phone. Contact your
| operator and they send you a new QR, which for me took five
| minutes and I had the QR in my email inbox.
|
| > The mobile network has no ability to transfer the sim over
| either. Apparently their software doesn't allow it.
|
| See above.
|
| > The only way is to transfer to a physical sim, wait for it to
| arrive, then mark the physical sim as lost, and then reorder an
| esim. Great - that takes 4 days, during which you have no
| service.
|
| Sounds like you should pick an operator that doesn't suck quite
| as much.
| TechBro8615 wrote:
| Also (at least for my iPhone 12 mini), you can only have one
| esim. I have a SIM for two countries and one of them has to be
| physical, which is unfortunate.
| prewk wrote:
| I have two on my iPhone 13 mini. One with 5g.
| dognotdog wrote:
| I was under the impression you could only activate one esim
| at a time, but store up to 6(?) on that phone?
| dogma1138 wrote:
| Physical SIMs can also be and are segregated to a specific
| network e.g. it's still possible to buy only 3 or 4G SIMs that
| are cheaper heck until recently even 2G only SIM packages were
| a thing.
|
| As far as the other problems go it's the same with physical
| SIMs again.
|
| Nearly all physical SIMs today are provisioned OTA so it quite
| often can take 24-48 hours for your physical SIM to activate
| especially if you migrate your number between carriers.
|
| The only way to get an "instant" SIM provisioning is to go to a
| large physical store even the smaller ones are pretty much the
| same as getting the SIM delivered to your house i.e. they take
| you through the same phone/internet based activation and
| provisioning process.
|
| You're also wrong about the internet requirement the
| provisioning system for eSIM does not require internet on the
| device for access the QR code is essentially an authentication
| code that combined with the IEMI allows you to register with a
| carrier.
|
| You usually do need an internet connection on another device to
| get the QR code in the first place but if you can also use a
| checkout terminal or just get a paper print out of the QR.
| bunga-bunga wrote:
| > it quite often can take 24-48 hours for your physical SIM
| to activate
|
| In my world, I land in an airport, purchase a SIM card and it
| works before I leave the airport (or the operator's desk).
| It's often that way with eSIMs purchased via Airalo.
|
| The delay could appear when your transferring your number,
| but even then you can still use a temporary number until the
| old one overrides it.
| yosito wrote:
| For data-only SIMs while traveling, eSIMs are pretty great. I
| can just download an eSIM from an app and it's ready to go in
| minutes. Yes, it requires wifi or another working data plan to
| get started, but that's way easier than having to find a shop
| that sells physical SIM cards. If I didn't need to keep my
| phone number, I'd just stick with data only eSIMs.
| Unfortunately, I need to keep my phone number because a ton of
| banks and other accounts that I need to do business have
| required SMS-only 2FA. Recently, I bought a new phone while
| traveling and Google Fi wouldn't let me activate a new eSIM
| without returning to the US. If I would break my phone abroad,
| it would be an absolute nightmare. eSIMs shouldn't have this
| problem, but they do.
| smallerfish wrote:
| Park your number with a voip firm. You'll get SMS via email.
| Use local pay-per-use sims wherever you travel. You do not
| need to maintain a US phone plan to keep a US phone number.
| NoZebra120vClip wrote:
| Most MFA implementations will balk as soon as they discover
| you're on VoIP.
|
| And they will.
| delecti wrote:
| Yup, I've got my 2005 phone number on VOIP, but I've got
| to keep a "normal" number for things like that.
|
| https://xkcd.com/1129/
| thfuran wrote:
| I was on Google voice for years and occasionally had
| something refuse to send verification texts to it, but I
| don't think I've had that problem since I switched to
| voip.ms
| rsync wrote:
| No, park your 2FA number on a 2FA mule[1] and forward the
| sms anywhere you like.
|
| This solves the "voip number" problem.
|
| [1] https://kozubik.com/items/2famule/
| j1elo wrote:
| It's been 2 years since I read your initial comment on
| using an SMS mule [1], and I'm curious how's it going,
| you know, that phone you have plugged in at your office
| in a corner :)
|
| No battery swelling?
|
| I copied the idea and did the same, it's essentially free
| of cost to do so where I live, thanks to having operators
| that offer a pay-what-you-use tier with no fixed monthly
| cost. The line is just to act as a 2FA mule, so it means
| it costs nothing (save causing any kind of expense once
| every 6 months, but sending a single SMS does it, so I
| guess it actually costs something like 20cts per year)
|
| Apart from the SMS Forwarder app [2] you suggested, an HN
| commenter [3] provided links to some FOSS alternatives
| which I didn't get to try but they should work fine and
| are ad-free.
|
| [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28251107
|
| [2]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fr
| zinapps....
|
| [3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29711030
| nickphx wrote:
| I use a 4g device connected via usb with smstools to call
| a python script that logs the message and sends a push
| notification.. :D
| rsync wrote:
| No, no battery swelling.
|
| The only minor hiccup I have had is that at some point
| the devices decide that enough time has passed that there
| _must be_ a software update available ... and I ignore
| the prompts to do so ... which is fine ...
|
| ... but then there was a power outage and when they
| powered back on they were in some update status where
| they weren 't online until I clicked something ? I forget
| ... might have been an updated google legal agreement
| with the update ?
|
| They are google pixel devices with stock OS load and no
| apps added (other than that SMSForwarder) but even still,
| had some logic for software update that produced a minor
| annoyance.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| Not the parent, but I've used some app from F-Droid to
| fwd SMS to email. What I didn't thought about is what
| Samsung SW would aggressivly suffocate the app of any
| chance to wake up on the receive. Which led for it to be
| quite useless as a 2FA mule (delay is too long) and it
| requires a reboot every couple of months. It not that
| seriuous in ghis case, but if I would be in the need of
| replicating the setup I would do it with the Moto phone.
| smallerfish wrote:
| 2fa mule? Kagi isn't finding anything for that term.
| J_cst wrote:
| It means "to a dumb second phone that you'd use only for
| 2 factor authentication"
| rsync wrote:
| 2FA Mule:
|
| https://kozubik.com/items/2famule/
| mderazon wrote:
| Any recommended ones?
| smallerfish wrote:
| Recommend is a strong word since their UI is stuck in the
| pre-2010s, but voip.ms is cheap and generally good
| service.
|
| And Acrobits Softphone is a reliable SIP dialer for
| Android which is very light on battery life.
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