[HN Gopher] Sinead O'Connor has died
___________________________________________________________________
Sinead O'Connor has died
Author : jbegley
Score : 492 points
Date : 2023-07-26 17:46 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.irishtimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.irishtimes.com)
| hprotagonist wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzxTDHMQza8
|
| To stand in the full blast of a crowd that hates you with that
| amount of poise, and have a voice that is still capable of song
| or even coherent speech, just beggars my imagination.
|
| i hope you have found peace. you were a voice crying out in the
| wilderness and we did to you what we always do to that.
| basisword wrote:
| Wow! The thing that surprised me most about this was it's a Bob
| Dylan tribute concert? I'm shocked religion still had such a
| hold on the kind of people attending that type of concert at
| that point in time. The volume is insane. Incredible strength
| to be able to stand and take such abuse and continue to
| perform.
| nailer wrote:
| The audience are terrible, but as a child I would have taken
| part in that. We identified as a group, with a set of beliefs
| our parents had chosen for us, and thought anyone that
| attacked our leader was attacking us.
|
| Years later I grew up and apologised to Sinead O Connor on
| Twitter for thinking this way. But a lot of people never did
| grow up, not just Catholics but also people from other
| conservative religions. People still feel religious ideas are
| somehow innate, and therefore the criticising religious ideas
| is wrong. But no idea is innate, people can and do leave and
| join every religion and every set of spiritual beliefs all
| the time, so no idea is beyond criticism. A crowd of people
| booing Sinead O Connor 30 years ago is very similar to people
| attacking Charlie Hebdo in 2015 and sadly people still make
| excuses for both.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| > A crowd of people booing Sinead O Connor 30 years ago is
| very similar to people attacking Charlie Hebdo in 2015
|
| Erm. I don't think it's _that_ similar.
| nailer wrote:
| ok
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| I think it speaks less to people's religious feelings and
| more towards the rather apolitical and apathetic alternative
| music culture at the time. If I recall the atmosphere at the
| time it was less "how dare she say that about the Pope?!" and
| more "how dare she co-opt the public stage for
| controversial/'political' speech?!" I also don't recall the
| outrage at her SNL performance even being particularly or
| especially by Catholics in particular, though I'm sure it was
| stronger among them.
|
| The rage around her Pope-photo-tearing photo on SNL I think
| was about: we're trying to sell/watching a entertainment
| products here, and now you've just gone and made things
| intense. They just wanted the dancing bear.
|
| She was an intense personality, an artist, not an
| entertainer. Maybe getting a billboard #1 single and becoming
| a sensation was the worst thing that could have happened for
| her. People just wanted to be entertained -- they wanted the
| fantastic voice but without the powerful emotions and
| convictions behind it -- and she didn't want to be a
| 'product'
|
| I agree it's especially jarring in the context of a Bob Dylan
| tribute.
| jgwil2 wrote:
| > Maybe getting a billboard #1 single and becoming a
| sensation was the worst thing that could have happened for
| her.
|
| She said as much herself in her recent memoir: "I feel that
| having a No. 1 record derailed my career, and my tearing
| the photo put me back on the right track."
| lamontcg wrote:
| > "how dare she co-opt the public stage for
| controversial/'political' speech?!"
|
| i don't know if the religious or the apolitical/centrists
| are worse.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| It's also important to remember how different that era of
| broadcast TV is from today though. It was far more
| centralized. Pre-streaming services, obviously, but also
| less penetration of cable and satellite TV, and so when
| something made it onto live broadcast television, there
| was a large audience, and they didn't have as many
| choices about what to watch, instead.
|
| So to get yourself onto live television in a popular
| spot, and do what she did was ballsy, and obviously
| clearly intended to make impact... but you can also see
| how people who tuned in expecting one thing and got
| something else could get angry. Which was of course her
| intent.
| andyjohnson0 wrote:
| Thank you for posting that. Her grace and defiance there were
| extraordinary. Peace for her.
| ogab wrote:
| Saw her live in NYC back in 2005 when she was doing roots reggae.
|
| Sly & Robbie was the rhythm section, with Burning Spear on vocals
| and percussion. Maybe Mikey Chung on guitar?
|
| I was totally surprised at the combination -- this Crazy Baldhead
| amongst Dreads -- but one of the best live shows I've been to.
| Surrounded by reggae icons, she was a boss on that stage.
|
| Big up Sinead! An incredible musician.
| cushychicken wrote:
| That's a whole shitload of moxie for an Irish lady. Very cool.
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| She'll be missed. As a youngster growing up in Ireland she not
| only gave a voice to all of us who wanted to reject the influence
| of the church, which had only become more entrenched throughout
| the conflict, but also to the women of this island who had been
| previously silenced for centuries.
|
| If anyone is interested more in feminist voices from the conflict
| in Ireland I can highly recommend the 1981 film Maeve. The idea
| of women being a "third side" in the whole conflict who had never
| been given voice was incredibly eye opening to me as a man moving
| into my 30s and changed my perspective not only on Irish history
| but entire history of Europe and the Middle East.
| throwawaymobule wrote:
| Anything covering Magdalene laundries or other catholic
| institutions in Ireland are pretty relevant too. She did spend
| a bunch of her childhood in one.
| [deleted]
| pvaldes wrote:
| One of the most wild, raw and talented woman that graced the
| music world. Also astonishing beautiful in her prime. Many women
| singers popular today would look really dull near her.
|
| She was right also when criticized the pope for not doing enough
| about the abuses of minors in the catholic church (except
| basically hiding the abusers).
|
| My choice would be Jump in the River, Fire on Babylon, or the
| fantastic duet Haunted.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| This hit me hard. The first of her songs I ever knew, and still
| my favorite, was "Troy" and I was just thinking of it this
| morning. Then an hour later someone tweeted that she had died.
| Probably going to be sad all day.
| sixothree wrote:
| What an incredible album. Jackie and Just Call me Joe are songs
| I always love to hear.
| mpol wrote:
| In the Netherlands this was her most well know song. I was
| teenager when Troy was a hit on the radio, the video was
| intriguing. It hits me too, I feel respect for her, though I
| sometimes had doubts about some ideas she put forward.
| kabes wrote:
| There's a great live video from troy at Pinkpop. Maybe that
| helped her popularity. Or maybe it was the other way around
| adnanc wrote:
| Announcing her conversion, she said, "This is to announce that I
| am proud to have become a Muslim. This is the natural conclusion
| of any intelligent theologian's journey. All scripture study
| leads to Islam. Which makes all other scriptures redundant."
| tetrep wrote:
| That sort of phrasing is almost to be expected, no? This might
| just be a cynical atheist's interpretation of Abrahamic
| religions, but Islam seems to be loosely doing the same thing
| to Christianity that Christianity did to Judaism, i.e. it
| purports to be the next theological evolution and therefore all
| practioniers of {current_religion} should rationally convert
| and download the latest religious firmware.
|
| I was going to make a joke about how it's a shame they stopped
| inventing Abrahamic religions, but then I remembered the
| Mormons! I would like to suggest that Mormonism is the true
| natural conclusion of any intelligent theologian's journey. At
| least until someone creates a new Abrahamic religion to succeed
| it.
| chaimanmeow wrote:
| So sad. I hope she is at peace with her son in a better world.
| parenthesis wrote:
| This Sinead O'Connor performance has stayed with me since
| watching its original broadcast:
|
| Success Has Made a Failure of Our Home (Live at Top of the Pops
| in 1992) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJWbPBp3QA
|
| (Hadn't seen it again until just now.)
| [deleted]
| user3939382 wrote:
| What how, she is so young. That is super sad.
| JAM1971 wrote:
| She lost her son of 17 years only 5 months ago. With no
| additional details, I know where my mind goes.
|
| Edit: whatever article I read said 5 months ago, but that
| appears to have been written some time ago. Plenty of articles
| stating that Shane died in Jan/2022:
|
| https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=shane+oconnor+wikipedia&ia=...
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| ...Where does it go?
| myth_drannon wrote:
| Many artists die from suicide. When a young artist dies, I
| usually assume drugs or suicide.
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| Occasionally it's cancer though
| glogla wrote:
| > I usually assume drugs or suicide.
|
| And sometimes it's hard to discern one from the other.
| LesZedCB wrote:
| > I've decided to follow my son. There is no point living
| without him. Everything I touch, I ruin. I only stayed for
| him. And now he's gone," she wrote on an unverified Twitter
| account linked to her official account.
|
| https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/14/entertainment/sinead-
| oconnor-...
|
| heart breaking to hear :(
| [deleted]
| wonderwonder wrote:
| Can't really think of anything worse than losing a kid to
| suicide. The guilt, warranted or not must be crushing.
| ngc7293 wrote:
| > Shane died in January 2022. A week later, following a
| series of tweets in which she indicated that she was going
| to kill herself, O'Connor was hospitalised.
|
| Wikipedia
| xsmasher wrote:
| My mind goes to suicide.
| slillibri wrote:
| Sure, but I'm certain that random internet speculation helps
| no one at this point.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| It's not really random though.
|
| She's announced she was going to do it before and to be
| fair she's always had more than her fair share of mental
| troubles, sadly. As someone who is also cursed with those I
| know how hard that can be and I didn't even lose a child.
|
| Withholding the cause is what leads to speculation and I
| don't think it's a bad guess in this case.
|
| Personally I think it's better if they just announced it
| because believe it or not something like this can also lead
| to good things. Because it can make people think, realise
| these things happen and notice the signs in people around
| them.
| toyg wrote:
| There would have been no speculation if the family had
| stated an uncontroversial cause of death. Instead they
| "requested privacy", which means it was likely something
| people would have judged her for.
| notfromhere wrote:
| That just means suicide and the press usually doesn't
| publish it to not encourage copycats.
| darkclouds wrote:
| I thought it a bit odd the link below[1] appeared on the front
| page of Reddit a fortnight ago. The news today reported she had
| also lost her son a short while ago. Perhaps someone knew
| something was up. I liked her song, nothing compares to you,
| fantastic voice.
|
| [1]
| https://www.reddit.com/r/OldSchoolCool/comments/14wx8cu/1992...
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| [dead]
| [deleted]
| NoboruWataya wrote:
| Really sad. I think in may ways Ireland didn't deserve her. A
| true legend and icon.
|
| Obviously she has no end of incredible songs but her version of
| Raglan Road sticks out as one of my favourites:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6zqb3gf5aA
| surume wrote:
| [flagged]
| racl101 wrote:
| Geez, only 56 years old. Seems like a lot of Gen X artists are
| passing away much earlier than the generation before them.
| jedberg wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27_Club
|
| The 27 Club is an informal list consisting mostly of popular
| musicians, artists, actors, and other celebrities who died at
| age 27.
|
| Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison all
| died at the age of 27 between 1969 and 1971. At the time, the
| coincidence gave rise to some comment, but it was not until
| Kurt Cobain's 1994 suicide, at age 27, that the idea of a "27
| Club" began to catch on in public perception.
| tasbir49 wrote:
| No insight on the cause. My condolences to her family, and
| hopefully her passing was peaceful and painless.
| Bostonian wrote:
| RIP. "The Lion and the Cobra" is a great album IMO, although as
| the album cover suggests, it is intense.
| burkesquires wrote:
| [flagged]
| dang wrote:
| Please don't take HN threads into religious flamewar. That's a
| circle of hell we're trying our best to avoid here.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| SeenNotHeard wrote:
| Her first recorded song was with The Edge on the criminally
| overlooked soundtrack for "Captive":
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvKV4_9nV2M
| pan69 wrote:
| I love this album and especially the Heroine track.
| fwungy wrote:
| A courageous woman. RIP.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| What a legend. It's hard to overstate how much pushback and shit
| was thrown at her when she ripped up a picture of the Pope on SNL
| in 1992 to protest church child abuse. It's also hard to
| overstate how incredibly prescient and _correct_ she was in her
| outrage. Catholic church child sex abuse didn 't really enter the
| national debate until a decade later.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Willingly and knowingly threw away a promising mainstream pop
| career to make that statement. Eternal respect.
| david927 wrote:
| The first time I heard the song -- and saw the video -- to
| "Nothing Compares 2 U" and the screen is nothing but her face and
| at one point there are tears, and she blares that unreal voice, I
| think I stopped breathing.
|
| She will be missed.
| mkmk wrote:
| Link to the video on YT:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-EF60neguk
| LaundroMat wrote:
| At the risk of being obvious, see also Dreyer's 1928 La Passion
| de Jeanne d'Arc (https://vimeo.com/169369684).
| esafak wrote:
| She had the same intent look in this recording of Molly Malone:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ouqhCtIh2g
| xnx wrote:
| Nothing Compares 2 U reliably induces frisson/goosebumps in me.
| Rare that a cover can match a Prince original:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_Compares_2_U
| glandium wrote:
| Chris Cornell's cover is way up there too.
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| Just looked this up, thank you. Double sad, I didn't know
| Cornell was also dead.
| pmarreck wrote:
| honest question: is the "frisson/goosebumps" thing not called
| ASMR now?
| chimeracoder wrote:
| > honest question: is the "frisson/goosebumps" thing not
| called ASMR now?
|
| No, ASMR is a completely separate phenomenon, although the
| term has since been adapted to refer to a general aural
| aesthetic, rather than the physiological phenomenon it
| induces in some people.
| whycome wrote:
| > She refused the playing of US national anthem before her
| concerts, drawing further public scorn.
|
| Was this a thing?!
|
| A good episode of "You're Wrong About..." covers the controversy
| of her:
|
| https://open.spotify.com/episode/265qKOV5C7XBqlyXMjp7VF
|
| https://podcasts.apple.com/at/podcast/sin%C3%A9ad-oconnor-wi...
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| I used to refuse to stand for the pledge of allegiance in high
| school and get threatened with being beat up, I guess it was a
| thing at the time.
| isykt wrote:
| The second Iraq war started when I was in junior high, that's
| when I stopped standing for the pledge and kept it through
| high school. There was a big discussion about whether
| students could be reprimanded, but ultimately I think it was
| decided that refusal was a form of free speech. I was proud
| of that, and so were my parents.
| bachmeier wrote:
| It was decided long ago:
| https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/west-
| virginia-v.-barnett...
|
| There was a Jehovah's Witness in our school. And of course
| he would not participate, leading some of the other kids to
| want to beat him up. They only gave up after they were
| threatened by the school and told by their parents that
| they have to respect other views. That was long ago, when
| the US valued civility. These days the parents would
| probably tell their kids to beat him up. The parents might
| even show them some moves.
| jgalt212 wrote:
| [flagged]
| vaporary wrote:
| Perhaps it was only a thing at the Garden State Arts Center
| (now the PNC Bank Arts Center)? Here's a Washington Post story
| at the time:
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1990/08/28/...
|
| _The Garden State Arts Center, which always starts its shows
| by playing the anthem, gave in to the singer 's demand, fearing
| that a last-minute cancellation would enrage the audience of
| 9,000, but prohibited any future appearances by the hit
| singer._
| paganel wrote:
| One of the best voices of the last half-century. Tragic life. RIP
| to a beautiful soul.
| hdlothia wrote:
| RIP
| cdcarter wrote:
| Her cover of "Nothing Compares 2 U" is, without a doubt, the most
| iconic love song of the modern era.
| myoldohiohome wrote:
| I always liked the way she sang "I'll Tell Me Ma." Most versions
| I've heard are upbeat. Hers sounded like she was an onlooker, not
| a participant - the kid no one would play with.
| saekizm wrote:
| Suaimhneas siorai mo chara
| teleforce wrote:
| "We belong to Allah, and to Him we return."[1]
|
| [1] Inna Lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inna_Lillahi_wa_inna_ilayhi_ra...
| midnitewarrior wrote:
| We belong to ourselves, and only the weak-minded allow
| themselves to become enslaved by another. Free yourself.
| dang wrote:
| Can you please stop taking HN threads further into flamewar?
| You've been doing it repeatedly lately, unfortunately, and
| we're trying for something different here.
|
| I realize that the GP could be interpreted as a provocation
| in that direction but it doesn't have to be taken that way or
| responded to in this way.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| robertheadley wrote:
| She never deserved to be shunned.
| toyg wrote:
| [flagged]
| jawns wrote:
| [flagged]
| IvyMike wrote:
| Arguably her protest was the pebble that started the
| avalanche of investigations of the catholic church that
| resulted in abuses coming to light and the Pope apologizing
| in 2005.
| pmarreck wrote:
| I'm not disputing this, but do you have any evidence for
| it? (Would be nice if it were verifiably true.)
| TehCorwiz wrote:
| A protest that doesn't make anyone uncomfortable has no
| teeth.
| lotsoweiners wrote:
| Plenty of protests that make people uncomfortable also have
| no teeth.
| redwall_hp wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent
| acheron wrote:
| [flagged]
| DonHopkins wrote:
| There are words much more devastating than "asshole" to
| aptly and fairly describe people like you who carry the
| water for child abusers.
| Gabriel_Martin wrote:
| Your HN account is probably older than many of those kids
| the church covered up the abuse of. But sure, she's the
| asshole for making you think about it.
| mburns wrote:
| She spoke truth to power.
|
| With the benefit of hindsight, how is there any doubt she
| was on the right side of history for bringing attention
| to the issue?
| CWuestefeld wrote:
| I don't think that's fair.
|
| Nobody claimed the converse, and that's what would be a
| more apt target of your comment.
|
| And I think that there's a lot of space between "making
| someone uncomfortable" versus being an asshole.
| notfromhere wrote:
| A whole institution spent decades covering up child
| sexual abuse and you're complaining about decorum?
|
| People upset with her over that completely missed what
| they should be mad about.
| bigbillheck wrote:
| Bet it's a whole lot more than 'decades'.
| CPLX wrote:
| What "industry" are you talking about exactly?
| IvyMike wrote:
| Not sure if this was an edit, but the post says
| "entertainment industry"
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| And she made exactly that point by saying that doing that
| didn't hurt her career, it hurt the careers of the people who
| wanted to make money from her.
| [deleted]
| subpixel wrote:
| Elvis Costello lied to SNL as well, and then produced one of
| the best musical performances on that show, _ever_.
|
| Elvis was protesting corporate control and homogeneity.
| Sinead was protesting institutions that enabled evil. Who
| cares if some suits were made uncomfortable.
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| Looking back 30 years later, it's really hard to understand. If
| it was today, it would barely be a blip.
| mynameishere wrote:
| It's not hard to understand. I remember when it happened, and
| I remember thinking "publicity stunt". I wouldn't hold that
| against her--that's show business. Sometimes you eat the
| nipple and sometimes the nipple eats you.
| wesleywt wrote:
| We all thought that, because we did not realize at the time
| how corrupt the abusive the catholic church was.
|
| What she did was real bravery to stand in the face of so
| much opposition and mockery from us at the time.
|
| It seems for some people they are still from that time.
| GoofballJones wrote:
| I would even bet if it happened on an SNL today, it would
| have been met with applause.
| CSMastermind wrote:
| That's just because the mores of society have changed.
|
| I can think of dozens of true statements that if spoken on
| a show like Saturday Night Live would led to a performer
| being banned.
| cmh89 wrote:
| >That's just because the mores of society have changed.
|
| And the huge amounts of research that shined the light on
| the Catholic church's culture of preying and assaulting
| children and then covering it up.
|
| It took quite a heroic effort to bring the Catholic
| church's crimes to light and she was speaking about
| something the media wasn't comfortable or willing to
| report on.
| hotpotamus wrote:
| Here's an SNL clip from way back where Chevy Chase and
| Richard Pryor trade racial slurs
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuEBBwJdjhQ
|
| I'm not a big fan of the whole, "you couldn't do that
| today", but you sure couldn't do that today. I think you
| weren't supposed to do it then either which made it
| subversive comedy.
| david927 wrote:
| The opposite -- I'm so proud of her for taking that stand.
| yabones wrote:
| She was right. Few people listened, and those who did took
| little or no action. That puts her in the highest of culture
| heroes to me. RIP.
| wnevets wrote:
| It's hard not to laugh whenever people talk about "cancel
| culture" being a new phenomenon. The amount of hate she
| received for merely bringing up the horrible actions the
| catholic church committed was absurd.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| Fwiw I think of cancel culture as a concern when it happens
| to the everyday professor, presenter and so on. But you are
| correct, product and celebrity protests for cultural
| statements are nothing new.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Who is calling it a new phenomenon? The only thing new about
| it is the name.
| sixothree wrote:
| Simply put, republicans.
| wnevets wrote:
| Virtually everyone who complains about it. The complains
| are _almost_ always about how sensitive people are _today_
| , how blazing saddles couldn't be made _today_ or whatever
| non-sense they use to rage farm. Its almost always framed
| as a today problem.
| kodt wrote:
| I think the real complaint is over who has the power to
| "cancel" someone, and being upset at how that has
| shifted.
| somewhat_drunk wrote:
| 100%
| spamizbad wrote:
| When you look at historic examples of cancel culture its
| almost absurd at how tame their offenses were. Dixie
| Chicks are another example that come to mind where
| critical but not controversial statements are made and it
| ruined people's careers.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Robert J. Oppenheimer
| parker_mountain wrote:
| The problem they have, of course, is not that cancel
| culture exists. It's that the center of force of
| "cancellation" went from the right to the left. The thing
| they used to great effect against queer people, anti-
| religious people, etc, is now being directed at them. It
| sucks being on the other side.
|
| I personally think that things are too "hot" right now,
| but nobody should pretend this is a modern problem.
| MikusR wrote:
| on Twitter in November 2018. She wrote: "What I'm about to say is
| something so racist I never thought my soul could ever feel it.
| But truly I never wanna spend time with white people again (if
| that's what non-muslims are called). Not for one moment, for any
| reason. They are disgusting."
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin%C3%A9ad_O%27Connor#Tweets_...
| HydianSnake1 wrote:
| [flagged]
| i_like_apis wrote:
| Definitely lost any respect I had for her here.
| jjulius wrote:
| Still[1]?
|
| [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36883262
| i_like_apis wrote:
| Yeah
| rhcom2 wrote:
| Why not include the whole text though?
|
| > Later that month, O'Connor stated that her remarks were made
| in an attempt to force Twitter to close down her account.[99]
| In September 2019, she apologised for the remarks, saying "They
| were not true at the time and they are not true now. I was
| triggered as a result of Islamophobia dumped on me. I apologize
| for hurt caused. That was one of many crazy tweets lord knows."
| [deleted]
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| I always had immense respect for her decision to shave her head
| when told by music execs to "sex it up." She was gorgeous but she
| was a singer. She wanted to be hired for her singing.
|
| Being a pretty young woman shouldn't be such a ridiculous
| hardship. And I kind of wonder how much that radicalized her and
| how that factors into her conversion to Islam.
| belfalas wrote:
| Wow, I always liked Sinead and her music but didn't realize
| that was the reason for her haircut. Big up to her.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| And tragically, I don't remember this _ever_ being reported
| in the US at the time.
|
| She was largely portrayed as a vapid attention-seeker and it
| was as if the head-shaving was just like... one of her "wild
| and crazy" acts.
|
| Now, this was the mid-80s. Media was so much more
| centralized. I was a kid, and all you really had was the news
| bites that were served to you.
|
| Theoretically some enterprising kid/person could have really
| researched her, but out of the zillions of things I could
| have been doing at the time I wasn't aware of any reason to
| think more deeply about her.
|
| As an adult I did so and man, that was a strong woman. The
| "You're Wrong About" episode about her is a wonderful place
| to start.
| cbsmith wrote:
| > And tragically, I don't remember this ever being reported
| in the US at the time.
|
| It was reported. It's just those facts didn't get in the
| way of portraying her as a vapid attention-seeker.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| Yeah, I'm American and I knew.
|
| And, yet, some guy on some talk show said about her
| something like "It's kind of arrogant. If she didn't look
| like Audrey Hepburn, she wouldn't have done it. It's a
| form of bragging: Look how beautiful I am!"
|
| I wanted to reach through my TV and smack him.
| johnohara wrote:
| I am deeply saddened by her passing. Her performances always
| featured powerful vocals driven by equally powerful emotion.
|
| But her version of Pink Floyd's "Mother," performed live in
| Berlin in 1990 with Roger Waters, Rick Danko, Levon Helm, and
| Garth Hudson, was Sinead at her most vulnerable and in my
| opinion, a full expression of her soul.
|
| Audio with onstage video:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRbKXACBaoc
|
| High quality audio only:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSd0Yl5mDuU
| ja27 wrote:
| Trivia: Those recordings of her are mostly from the dress
| rehearsal the night before. They had power issues during her
| live performance and she refused to come back onstage after the
| show to record another take. So the concert-goers didn't get to
| hear this version.
| Taniwha wrote:
| I was in Berlin a few days before and attended what was the
| best concert I ever attended, it was a double header, Sinead
| and Midnight Oil - it was just her and a tape deck and
| absolutely brilliant
| paulette449 wrote:
| My favourite song too, heartbreaking knowing the abuse she
| suffered at the hands of her own mother.
| synetic wrote:
| I remember being outraged at her tearing up John Paul II's
| picture. The media in the U.S. did a great job of hiding why she
| did it. I was not outraged at her when I found out her justified
| reasons for doing so. That was the first time I became
| consciously aware that news is a business and that that business
| thrives when it generates outrage. I no longer fall victim to
| this.
|
| She's far more the saint than that bastard John Paul II.
|
| EDIT: Ironic this is flagged. I'm proud of this actually. I feel
| a slight kinship with Sinead now. In honor of her death would
| that we all, in our own way, tear to shreds the image of John
| Paul II!
| nailer wrote:
| Same.
|
| As a child, I thought the Pope and the church helped poor
| people and practiced showing people how to be good to each
| other by following the ten commandments. When Sinead O Connor
| ripped up the picture of the Pope on SNL I remember asking why.
|
| Someone said the reason was because she was crazy. They were
| lying to me.
|
| Sinead O'Connor was drawing attention to child sexual abuse
| when nobody else was.
|
| > She's far more the saint than that bastard John Paul II.
|
| I don't know about JP2's involvement in child sexual abuse (not
| doubting you, just saying I don't know *) but Ratzinger /
| Benedict absolutely deliberately prevented investigation into,
| and facilitated (by moving rapist priests into new parishes),
| child sexual abuse.
|
| Years later I apologized to O'Connor on Twitter and she took it
| with grace.
|
| * Update: some research showed the Vatican, under JP2, opposed
| extensions of the statutes of limitations in sex abuse cases.
| michaelsbradley wrote:
| Ratzinger / Benedict absolutely deliberately prevented
| investigation into, and facilitated (by moving rapist priests
| into new parishes), child sexual abuse.
|
| No, not really at all, actually:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI#Sexual_abuse.
| ..
| nailer wrote:
| [flagged]
| michaelsbradley wrote:
| [flagged]
| dang wrote:
| Please stop. We don't want religious flamewars.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| dang wrote:
| Please stop. We don't want religious flamewars.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| basisword wrote:
| Do you not think your comment would have been better without
| the final sentence?
| prmoustache wrote:
| yeah think of those poor bastards who now are associated to
| the former chef of a child abuse cartel.
| dang wrote:
| It was flamebait, but please let's not take the bait because
| a religious flamewar is not what we need here.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| synetic wrote:
| [flagged]
| [deleted]
| dang wrote:
| It's simply the practical question of what type of site
| HN is trying to be. We want curious conversation, not
| people bashing each other, which is what flamebait leads
| to.
|
| Commenters who get too sure of their moral positions tend
| to do a lot of this. I'm not saying the moral positions
| are wrong (I probably agree a lot of the time, certainly
| Sinead did a courageous thing, etc. etc.). But the
| quality of discussion this leads to is predictably poor,
| evokes worse from others, and tends to go straight to the
| bottom of the internet barrel. We're trying to not get
| sucked completely into that muck here--a difficult task
| to even partly achieve, so we need everyone's help.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| fknorangesite wrote:
| I mostly like the moderation on this site, but I think
| you're missing the mark on this one.
|
| The man - and the institution - facilitated and covered
| up the abuse and rape of countless children. Calling him
| a bastard seems pretty small potatoes for you to start
| clutching your pearls over.
| dang wrote:
| One has to distinguish the importance of a topic from the
| quality of internet conversation about it. We moderate
| for the latter, not the former. Most important topics,
| including most atrocities, don't make HN's front page,
| and most things that do make the front page are neither
| important nor an atrocity.
|
| People tend to respond to activating topics with intense
| pre-existing feelings. That's understandable--I'm not
| criticizing it and it would be futile to try to change
| it. But it does not make for curious conversation, which
| is what HN is for: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&
| page=0&prefix=true&sor...
|
| Curious conversation is about learning new things,
| changing one's orientation, and so on. That's one reason
| why the best HN threads tend to have a whimsical aspect--
| when a topic isn't high-stakes and one doesn't have a
| pre-existing position about it, curiosity is the natural
| state. Not so much otherwise.
| howinteresting wrote:
| Still prioritizing vibes over justice.
|
| I think the actual real child sexual abuse is a much bigger
| problem than people posting about it in an incendiary way
| on Hacker News. Let people post on Hacker News about it in
| whatever terms they prefer--no matter how flame-y it is it
| still isn't going to be anywhere near as bad as the object-
| level issue at hand. If someone's offended at it then
| they're likely a bad person who shouldn't be here.
| dang wrote:
| I don't know what "vibes" means but it's not a concept
| that enters my mind while moderating this place. If you
| want to understand the real principle by which we
| moderate HN, something like "prioritize curiosity over
| indignation" would be closer to the mark.
|
| > actual real child sexual abuse is a much bigger problem
|
| Of course. It's far more important than anything that
| goes on on an internet message board like HN. But you
| might be under a misconception of what HN is for, if you
| think we should let it be inundated by high-indignation,
| high-repetition threads about the most important things
| in the world. That would make it something like a current
| affairs or general news site, which is not the game we're
| trying to play here. In fact it's the main game we're
| trying _not_ to play, as the guidelines try to make
| clear: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
| [deleted]
| synetic wrote:
| [flagged]
| basisword wrote:
| That's the reason I called it out as respectfully as I
| could. I was hoping OP would edit the comment given the
| rest of it is valid and gets the same point across.
| synetic wrote:
| [flagged]
| hackerzzzz wrote:
| [dead]
| nailer wrote:
| Dan I don't think that comment was designed to be religious
| flamebait. It may seem like sectarianism if you're not
| Catholic so I understand feeling this way, but the people
| who are the most angry about Catholic priests raping
| children are people that grew up Catholic like myself.
|
| Ie, this isn't attacking anyone on the basis of their
| religion.
|
| I'd probably say the comment could be improved by adding a
| link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Pope_Joh
| n_Paul_II instead of 'that bastard' but criticism of people
| that facilitate child abuse is quite reasonable and very
| separate from attacking members of a particular religion.
| osullish wrote:
| I think his last sentence doesn't go far enough - I'm not
| sure how far I'd need to go to describe someone who covered
| up systemic child abuse on a global scale
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| It always confused me how, at least in Boston, many many
| priests (but not the most egregious one or two) avoided
| prosecution for child abuse.
| osullish wrote:
| Same in Ireland, some high profile cases were prosecuted-
| but not the majority, and nothing happened the nuns -
| especially the evil that ran the mother and baby homes.
| 300+ babies discarded in a septic tank.
| fknorangesite wrote:
| And similarly in Canada as we are finding the unmarked
| graves of children at the former sites of the Residential
| "School" system.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential
| _sc...
|
| O'Connor was right.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Do you have a link for the 300+ discarded babies? I'd
| like to read about that.
| osullish wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Secours_Mother_and_Ba
| by_...
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Thank you. No mention of prosecutions in that article.
| Perhaps many of the people who were in charge are no
| longer alive, but perhaps some still there. There's no
| mention of it that I see.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| I don't. Do you? If so, why?
| dang wrote:
| You started a religious flamewar and then poured fuel into it
| in multiple places. That's why your comment is flagged. Please
| don't post like that here.
|
| Your comment was just fine in the first paragraph and broke the
| site guidelines with the second paragraph--not because we care
| what you think about popes, but because such swipes predictably
| lead to internet dreckfests and we're simply trying to have a
| forum that doesn't suck. At least to the extent possible.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| synetic wrote:
| I've been on this site since the beginning. I change
| usernames periodically. I understand the desire to avoid
| flame wars.
|
| Here's a sincere question. If I called Charles Manson a
| bastard would that be flamebait? Are we at the point that
| calling out the objectively verified despicable acts of a
| person is flamebait?
|
| It wasn't a swipe at the man. Sinead suffered a lot for
| ripping his image apart. She has died now. It is appropriate
| to point out she did not deserve the reaction and that the
| protector of her abusers did deserve to have his image
| shredded.
|
| It's always ok to call out those who abuse or protect
| abusers. I care not that my post got flagged. I'm glad of it.
| I feel a tiny bit like Sinead. Even after all that is known
| about John Paul 2 people still can't face reality about the
| man.
|
| We obviously don't agree. I'll stop posting about this and
| just read all responses.
| dang wrote:
| "That bastard John Paul II" was obvious flamebait--of
| course it was a swipe. You're broadcasting to thousands of
| people when you post here. Did you really think some people
| wouldn't react? Is it a high-quality conversation about
| Sinead O'Connor to have people yell at each other about
| popes?
|
| > It's always ok to call out those who abuse or protect
| abusers. I care not that my post got flagged. I'm glad of
| it. I feel a tiny bit like Sinead
|
| We're trying to avoid online callout/shaming culture on
| this site. It reliably leads to poor-quality discussion. ht
| tps://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=a.
| .. Generally, the state of high indignation (and its
| correlate, high moral justification) isn't congruent with
| the intended spirit of conversation here.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| synetic wrote:
| Edit: I can't edit now. An extreme example. Is calling
| Hitler a bastard an example of political flame bait?
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Calling Hitler a bastard here is online callout/shaming
| culture. It's a swipe against Hitler's character. It's
| not curious discussion to discuss Hitler that way.
| dang wrote:
| You're correct that little curious conversation about
| Hitler is possible. Even Satan has a better shot at it.
|
| The rest of your post is a caricature but I assume you
| meant it that way.
| dang wrote:
| Gratuitous Hitler invocation usually is.
|
| This type of trolley-problem questioning doesn't work for
| getting a clearer picture of HN moderation. HN is not a
| letter-of-the-law kind of place. There's no comprehensive
| doctrine covering all cases, and it would be foolish of
| us to try to make one.
| michaelsbradley wrote:
| [flagged]
| synetic wrote:
| We have different perceptions of the reality of the man. I
| hope, sincerely, that you find peace in Him and not him.
| howinteresting wrote:
| https://apnews.com/article/church-sex-abuse-john-paul-
| poland...
| bmmayer1 wrote:
| This was arguably one of the first "cancellations" before
| "cancel culture" was a thing we were talking about.
|
| Right or wrong, what she did was definitely courageous and
| arguably destroyed her career.
| CydeWeys wrote:
| > This was arguably one of the first "cancellations" before
| "cancel culture" was a thing we were talking about.
|
| Um, I think the 1,500+ year history of the Catholic church
| would beg to differ here ...
|
| And even before that, Socrates was so canceled for his views
| he was killed by the state.
| bmmayer1 wrote:
| That's a fair point. There's arguably an inflection point
| where media became "mass" media that's hard to pin down but
| somewhere in the late 1980's-early 1990's where 24 hour
| news and the internet were in their infancy. I'm sure
| there's a smart thesis here that a media expert could make
| ;)
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| jpadkins wrote:
| My favorite Sinead moment was her UFC 189 walkout song for Conor
| McGregor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKvBV-xVbmI
|
| still gives me goosebumps
| local_issues wrote:
| [flagged]
| bbg2401 wrote:
| [flagged]
| legerdemain wrote:
| The irony of being outlived by Shane MacGowan.
| clivestaples wrote:
| Her duets with him are amazing!
| paulette449 wrote:
| He has outlived Kirsty MacColl (co-singer on Fairytale of New
| York) by 23 years and counting. Her death was a tragedy.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsty_MacColl#Death
| johnflan wrote:
| Who'd have thought
| unethical_ban wrote:
| There are a number of flagged comments which don't deserve it.
| And as long as there is no outlet for objecting to poor flagging
| decisions, I'll use the comments section to call attention to it.
|
| If we are going to have a discussion about a performer unafraid
| of controversy and who struggled with mental and spiritual
| concerns publicly, a robust conversation should be allowed.
| dang wrote:
| The flagged comments I'm aware of are either taking the thread
| into flamewar, and/or on generic tangents. Those are correct
| uses of flags. If there's something I've missed about this, I'm
| happy to take a look, but I'd need a specific link.
|
| "Robust" can mean a lot of things. HN's intended purpose is
| curious conversation. If we allow the predictably-outraged type
| of thread here, it will quickly take over discussion of most
| stories. If that happens, it will quickly destroy the forum.
| This is not a small risk--it's the biggest one. It would be
| foolish not to take it seriously, and we work hard to prevent
| it.
|
| Ironically, that sometimes leads to the perception that the
| forum is fine, so why not allow a few robust fires to burn here
| and there? The answer is that the forum is not fine. It's at
| constant risk of burning to a crisp [1], and our primary
| responsibility is to stave that off [2], to the extent that we
| can.
|
| That said, if there's truly high-quality conversation going on
| in any of these flagged subthreads, I'd like to see it. My
| experience in general is that flamewar doesn't go along with
| high-quality conversation at all. It's extremely exciting, of
| course--but from an intellectual-curiosity point of view, inert
| and boring, as anything predictable is [3].
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| [1]
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
|
| [2]
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
|
| [3]
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
| unethical_ban wrote:
| As always, know I understand the work you do and that a
| healthy online community requires a heavy hand sometimes.
|
| I suppose my argument is that there is more room for personal
| criticisms, negatives comments and unsubstantiated opinion in
| a thread discussing a public figure's life than a more
| technical/abstract topic.
|
| That is all; I won't push the subject.
| dang wrote:
| Thanks for the kind reply. We're not trying to shut down
| those things--only the predictable/indignant/flamey stuff.
| Is there a flagged post that you think is the former but
| not the latter?
| blastro wrote:
| shoutout for doing it her way.
| tooriel wrote:
| Her performance on SNL was a sign-act (prophetic gesture) in the
| purest sense of the word.
| linksnapzz wrote:
| As was Joe Pesci's response to her a week later.
| CodeCompost wrote:
| Saw her perform live once. Phenomenal.
| oklopre wrote:
| RIP. She was an incredible women, with an astounding musical
| talent. Always bold and outspoken, her live shredding of the
| Pope's photo to protest the immorality of the Catholic church was
| both beautiful and iconic. It's a shame she turned to Islam in
| her later years, but she was clearly a troubled soul. I hope her
| passing was peaceful.
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