[HN Gopher] Way ahead of its time: The Remote Lounge NYC (2013)
___________________________________________________________________
Way ahead of its time: The Remote Lounge NYC (2013)
Author : Ivoah
Score : 315 points
Date : 2023-07-25 02:19 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (docpop.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (docpop.org)
| buggythebug wrote:
| Lived by here in the early 2000's - went a couple of times. Was
| kind of cool! Don't remember when it shut down.
| taterbase wrote:
| There's a really interesting movie called "We Live in Public"
| that documents one of the early tech pioneers Josh Harris as he
| sells his internet radio company and then creates an underground
| CCTV community. It's fascinating and equally frightening how
| people behaved towards one another while sharing space and
| constantly watching each other. It reminds me a lot the
| relationship many twitch streamers have with their viewers. You
| can find the movie for free on Tubi (in the states at least).
| nhod wrote:
| The founders of Remote were in fact the technical team Josh
| Harris hired to create We Live in Public!
| robbywashere_ wrote:
| Probably got demolished and turned into a bank or a Verizon
| store.
| ShadowBanThis01 wrote:
| Probably not a bank. Banks are getting rid of physical service,
| not expanding it.
| ttmb wrote:
| They keep opening new branches around here. They are
| glorified ATM lobbies with minimal staff who will often
| direct you to use an ATM for anything that an ATM can do. But
| they do keep opening them. I sometimes wonder if it's just a
| complicated real estate investment play.
| ShadowBanThis01 wrote:
| Fair enough! You might be right.
| creer wrote:
| Why no "tour" or replication? I understand that night
| entertainment is in part a novelty industry - but this took a lot
| of effort and was apparently hugely popular in NYC. Any insight
| as to why it didn't "tour"? or wasn't replicated? Did it, in
| fact, loose money overall and/or from the start? What's the deal
| with the (apparent) lack of replication of bar or nightclub
| themes?
|
| This is an open question - not specific to Remote Lounge or Meow
| Wolf or Audium (San Francisco "sound experience") or the several
| other creative ideas mentioned in the thread. To be fair, one
| format that was endlessly replicated is the game arcade - without
| bar initially and with bar now.
| fallendev wrote:
| This place seemed so cool, it's a shame it's gone now, I would
| love to go to a bar like this.
| supportengineer wrote:
| Around 2001 in San Francisco I stumbled into the ruins of a
| nightclub called the Caribbean Zone, and felt the same way when
| I saw the waterfall and the Doobie Brothers' airplane
| naetius wrote:
| *its
| Dowwie wrote:
| I remember going there! There wasn't a single customer. I felt
| like something was very wrong and I needed to leave immediately.
| rationalfaith wrote:
| [dead]
| nimajneb wrote:
| This is fascinating, I would definitely frequent a bar with a
| theme like this. It's amazing.
| bozhark wrote:
| This would be really neat today if there were different bars in
| different places all linked together like this.
|
| No ?, just a really neat concept
| [deleted]
| chuan_l wrote:
| Love this post and reading about " remote lounge " ! I ran a
| night in a Chinatown dive bar here in Melbourne , Australia
| back in 1998 and inspired by the release of FSOL " ISDN " back
| then we streamed live performances from another club in
| Adelaide using 2 - bonded ADSL 128 Kbps links. It worked great
| despite just having enough bandwidth for decent audio and we
| ran 2 - small parties that were done like this ..
|
| Though my real vision at the time was to have all 4 - walls
| projection mapped with video from other locations and perhaps
| create an " in between " space. That could link with different
| places around the world. There was a project in the UK around
| 2005 that tried to do this using a circular ring with cameras.
| However , am surprised that nobody has attempted more with
| telepresence in public spaces ..
| pmayrgundter wrote:
| Super cool! What a great album and bitrate moment :)
| fortran77 wrote:
| I know the source article had misspelled "its" and it's policy
| here to keep the original title, but can we change it to:
| Way ahead of [it's] time: The Remote Lounge NYC (docpop.org)
|
| or Way ahead of it's [sic] time: The Remote
| Lounge NYC (docpop.org)
|
| so it doesn't hurt readers' brains so much when they try to parse
| the sentence?
| bar000n wrote:
| (2013)
| jb1991 wrote:
| I celebrated my 35th birthday at this place!
| nhod wrote:
| I actually was the sole developer who wrote all the software that
| "networked" the custom hardware together. This project was so
| ahead of its time and yet required some rather arcane programming
| knowledge. So much fun though. AMA!
| CSMastermind wrote:
| How did they find you an pitch the project to you?
|
| You mentioned that the project required some rather arcane
| programming knowledge. Could you elaborate on this? What areas
| of programming did you have to delve into that might be
| considered out of the ordinary?
|
| Was there any discussion about privacy when you were
| implementing it?
|
| Were there any features or functionalities that you wanted to
| implement but couldn't due to technical limitations at the
| time?
| nhod wrote:
| How they found me: When I was 18, I was hired by The
| Disinformation Company (disinfo.com, the subculture search
| engine, which presaged our now post-truth conspiracy-theory
| laden world, though now sadly a shadow of its former self) as
| their Director of Technology. (I was precocious.)
|
| Disinfo had a cozy relationship with Razorfish, perhaps the
| biggest of the new breed of digital transformation consulting
| companies that emerged in the 90's. Razorfish was pretty
| insane back then -- wildly smart and creative people working
| at the absolute forefront of technology, much of which now
| seems quaint and taken for granted.
|
| As Razorfish rose and went public, it acquired a bunch of
| companies, one of which was Disinfo. I ended up becoming
| Director of Technology for RSUB, Razorfish's media division.
| Razorfish also acquired another company called
| Electrokinetics, which was all about hardware, and with whom
| we shared an office. I started hanging around the hardware
| guys, because, well, I loved hardware, and they were doing
| neat things like letting you SMS a soda machine to get a
| Coke. (This is 1999 -- this was the stuff of technology demos
| of the future, not the real world).
|
| When the Dotcom boom turned into the bust, one of the
| founders of Electrokinetics left to start Remote. I stayed in
| touch with them, heard about the project, started talking to
| them about it, one thing led to another, and I started
| working there!
|
| Arcane knowledge: I was 21 at the time and had dropped out of
| computer science to work at a startup, so some of this was
| just being green, but some of it was also an utter lack of
| documentation. I was using Perl to write this server, because
| at the time everything was Perl. I had to read, write, and
| route data to over a hundred serial devices (our Cocktail
| Consoles) in a non-blocking fashion using DigiKey serial-to-
| IP converters. In effect, I was writing the basics of a
| networking stack (read packet, figure out where it was
| supposed to be sent, transform it if necessary, send it
| somewhere else) just over serial.
|
| It wasn't really rocket science, it was just completely
| undocumented. And also solved by, well, IP networking. But we
| had to use serial, I was left with basically no books,
| terrible man pages, and random mentions of stuff in Usenet
| posts. Much of Linux's serial/tty subsystem was written very
| early on in the development of the kernel, made rock-solid,
| and promptly forgotten. What little documentation I could
| find was sparse and in relation to C functions or syscalls.
| Perl would then have a wrapper around it, and the wrapper
| wasn't well-documented nor was it exactly like the underlying
| call, so there was just a lot of trial and error as I figured
| out how to properly get the server to wait in a non-blocking
| way to get input from all of the different serial lines,
| figure out what to do with them, and write back to them, all
| in realtime.
|
| Privacy: there was discussion, actually. We had a huge sign
| when you entered the bar that said something like, "There are
| hundreds of cameras in here and you agree that you have no
| expectation of privacy by entering." The whole point was to
| be a little voyeuristic, so it was very consciously not a
| private place.
|
| Technical wishes: This is great question, I had to think
| about it for a bit. Amazingly, I don't think we had a lot of
| things we weren't able to do. We were able to take screen
| grabs and email them to people, so taking that a step further
| I suppose it would have been nice to be able to capture
| entire video streams instead of just still images, but the
| whole place had this Jetsons retro-future vibe to it, so some
| of the limitations were in line with the ethos of the place.
| supportengineer wrote:
| I would like to know who funded this project, not knowing
| if it was even possible or not, within their budget?
| nhod wrote:
| The founders of Remote (Leo Fernekes and two other
| partners, Kevin Centanni and Bob Stratton) were some of
| the funding, and they partnered with a local family who
| owned and ran a bunch of (very successful) dive bars in
| the East Village. There may have been other funding too
| but I think that was the majority of it.
| qwertox wrote:
| I love this response. How it gives so much insight into an
| area of someone's past life dealing with interesting
| topics, giving one a glimpse of what it was like back then
| and there.
|
| I'd enjoy reading this as a detailed book.
| ckn wrote:
| Hi Nick, this post was forwarded to me.
|
| Good post, I remember those days well and this exposure we
| had to all that tech absolutely had its influences for many
| of us.
|
| The real-world demo of that sms-soda machine was at the
| Stockholm offices, and one of several why I eventually
| moved out this way and have stayed.
|
| Though razorfish stuff is pretty spot on except I'm pretty
| sure Razorfish didnt BUY disinfo, but funded and supported
| it, IIRC Gary and Richard retained ownership, that was a
| content play for RSUB, which was a wholly owned subsidiary
| of Razorfish.
|
| ...and coincidentally Gary is selling all the brand and
| contents right now.
|
| ckn (Former IT Director @razorfish 1996-1999, Current
| Security Champion for R&D @Ericsson)
| detourdog wrote:
| KPC that you?
| docpop wrote:
| Thanks so much for joining this conversation, I'm a big fan of
| your work! Years before I joined any social network, the Remote
| Lounge already had me thinking about online sharing, consent,
| and the future of the web.
|
| I'd really like To know how your experience working on The
| Remote Lounge affected the way you viewed the rise of Web 2.0
| and the way we share our lives online.
| nhod wrote:
| This is a good question. Remote (and its ancestor We Live in
| Public) was way ahead of its time in regards to how public
| people were going to be about sharing their lives online. In
| many ways Remote was merely an instance of much larger trends
| in society that began decades (centuries?) before. Sharing
| your life with people you have never met; the culture (and
| cult) of celebrity; the long tail; constructing a persona for
| the public vs your private life; taking pictures of people
| without permission or knowledge; meeting people in the same
| room as you not via talking directly to them but through a
| technological disintermediation; technology as art... Remote
| had all of these things and more, all incorporated using the
| available technology at the time. (The medium is the
| message!)
|
| Those same trends continued on as technology improved: as
| hundreds of cameras in a single venue became billions of
| cameras all around us and in every pocket; as capturing a
| grainy black and white photo on a single debaucherous night
| and sharing it via email became sharing high resolution 4k
| sex videos on Grindr and Tinder; as dressing up infrequently
| for a single night so as to take advantage of the video and
| photo technology in an unusual venue became constant
| "dressing up" via creating an entire persona you constantly
| curate on various social media platforms; as small-time
| surveillance you willingly went into for fun became
| ubiquitous surveillance that made trillions of dollars for
| new hegemonies and entrenched the other powers that be even
| further; as the "innocent" early internet culture we started
| with that was all about freedom and revolution and individual
| power turned ugly and scary following 9/11 and became walled
| gardens and centralized control. (As another commenter
| pointed out, Remote opened shortly after 9/11 -- we were
| supposed to open around 9/13, but then the world ended, and
| we had to push it back a bit.)
|
| Anyway not sure I answered your question fully but hopefully
| got in the right neighborhood!
| tetrep wrote:
| Do you have access to the source code / would you be willing to
| share it?
| [deleted]
| nhod wrote:
| I don't, but if I did I would!
| nateguchi wrote:
| Can you give some details on the hardware? What was the image
| capture device?
| nhod wrote:
| Oh, the video capture device: because we had everything on
| analog CCTV, I had two analog TV tuner video capture cards in
| the server. Plain old 640x480 black and white analog video.
| When someone pressed the screen capture button on a Cocktail
| Console, I changed the channel on the video capture card to
| the appropriate channel, did a screen grab, and dumped the
| file in a folder on the server. People pressed it
| infrequently enough that two cards were fine to handle all
| the volume.
|
| Every day I'd create a new mm-dd-yyyy folder for images to go
| to, and the Remote web site had a calendar on it. You could
| go to the site, click on the night you were there, see all
| the images captured by all people that night, and save your
| images if you felt like it.
| hackeman300 wrote:
| Do those images still live on anywhere? Looks like the
| original viewer has since been taken down
| nhod wrote:
| I don't think so. The Wayback Machine had some at one
| point but I haven't kept up with it.
| nhod wrote:
| The Cocktail Consoles (as we called them) were all custom
| hardware. Everything was designed to be rock-solid both
| physically (bars are full of drunk people and liquids) and
| operationally (everything had to Just Work). Leo designed a
| core "motherboard" which was a PIC microcontroller (I forget
| the exact model) that did five main things: serial I/O for
| the buttons and joystick; serial I/O for the attached TV
| tuner; serial I/O for the attached pan-tilt video camera;
| audio from the telephone handset; and then multiplexing all
| of that serial I/O and sending it over serial to a central
| server (which I wrote -- in Perl!) which then controlled all
| the Cocktail Consoles in the bar.
|
| We used black and white cameras because they were both
| cheaper and also had much better sensitivity to low-light
| conditions (this has changed somewhat -- but not entirely --
| in 20+ years) and black and white tube TVs because they were
| cheap. (This part was actually really dangerous -- tube TVs
| hold enormous charges after they've been switched off, enough
| to kill someone, and we had the guts exposed on the insides
| of the Cocktail Consoles. Had to be very careful). We used
| public telephone handsets for the audio because of their
| durability, and video game buttons and joysticks so you could
| try very hard, and generally fail, to damage them.
|
| The TV's, cameras, and telephone audio were all connected
| over an analog CCTV system. The camera was video source and
| the handset's microphone was the audio source for a given
| channel. The TV could be tuned to any channel, and was thus
| the video output device, and the handset's speaker was tied
| to the same channel. Thus, if you tuned to any camera, you
| would see and hear whatever was going on at that console, but
| not the other way around, so it was rather voyeuristic. If TV
| A was tuned to camera B, and TV B was tuned to camera A, that
| established a bi-directional link, which meant you could see
| and converse with the other person.
|
| The serial data from all the microcontrollers were sent over
| serial-to-CAT5 converters, so the entire place was wired for
| Ethernet, but it was plain old serial over the wire. We then
| had these serial cards in a Dell server on the other end,
| which presented as roughly 100 serial ports on the server.
|
| This was where I had to do a lot of learning. I was a good IP
| programmer, but I had to reach back into the depths of the
| kernel and learn all about TTYs and switch() and lots of
| other stuff that even in 2000 was sort of forgotten. It took
| me forever to find any good documentation on how to handle
| that many serial ports in a non-blocking way.
|
| I kept asking Leo to just put a cheap Intel box in each
| machine and do it all over regular Ethernet, but he (rightly)
| kept insisting on this low-cost, rock-solid approach. Today
| the calculus would undoubtedly be different -- you would do
| everything over IP -- but back then Leo had a level of
| foresight I still admire.
| supportengineer wrote:
| All this was done in Manhattan itself?
| nhod wrote:
| Yep. 3rd and Bowery, before CBGB closed and the East
| Village went from the bohemian hipster world of RENT to
| the expensive place it is today. The Bowery had just
| barely changed from "don't go there ever" to "oh, cool!"
| nhod wrote:
| Yep! First, here's a video from the guy who developed all the
| hardware, Leo Fernekes. (He runs a great YouTube channel
| called Leo's Bag of Tricks all about electronics and neat
| stuff you can do. Leo's a genius.) Lots of details in here.
|
| https://youtu.be/3i3db-QgHYE
| 20after4 wrote:
| I love Leo's videos. Really top notch YouTube content.
| Bluecobra wrote:
| Did the smoking ban change any of the social dynamics in the
| bar?
| nhod wrote:
| Good question -- I left in 2002 and the bar smoking ban took
| full effect in 2003, so I don't really know the answer.
| barcode_feeder wrote:
| Know of any comparably inspired venues in 2023?
| meesles wrote:
| Not exactly the same thing, but they had a phone version of
| this at MeowWolf, the huge interactive trippy art exhibit, in
| Denver. They had phone terminals laying around with a whole
| directory of fake businesses. At first, I thought they
| staffed the lines with employees, but it turned out to be a
| system like this minus the video screens.
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| Can you share any information on why the Remote Lounge shut
| down? I took a look and basically just found that it got
| "seedy" over time: https://ny.eater.com/2007/11/30/6808673/the-
| shutter-remote-l...
|
| I'm curious if you think web2.0 expanded so rapidly that the
| novelty of interacting with strangers over a camera was no
| longer foreign to people (though it seems ChatRoulette didn't
| even launch until after the shuttering of the Remote Lounge),
| or if it was just the kind of gimmicky thing that had an
| expiration date regardless of how the world around us changed
| during that time period
| betamaxthetape wrote:
| An earlier (1968) venue with a similar concept was "The Birds
| Nest", a pub / nightclub in the UK.
|
| > They renamed The King's Head, an almost brutalist post-war
| booze bunker at 2 King Street, installing a state-of-the-art
| steel dance-floor, light-show projectors and a high-end sound
| system.
|
| > They also installed an in-pub telephone network so that if you
| saw someone you liked the look of, you could dial their table and
| have a chat across the room.
|
| Source: https://boakandbailey.com/2020/10/watneys-birds-nest-
| pubs/
|
| [This information comes to me entirely second-hand, through
| articles and an episode of a podcast, so I can't vouch 100% for
| the accuracy.]
| confoundcofound wrote:
| Is there any way back (forward) to this sort of tech innocence?
| rozap wrote:
| I think the general concept has continued to circulate on the
| internet. Chat roullete was popular for a long time,
| https://chat.meatspac.es/ was a great niche for a while,
| omegle, etc, etc. But like Leo said in the video, these sorts
| of "experiments" are really sensitive to a critical mass, where
| they're super fun if you have > N people on the thing at the
| same time, and kinda weird if you have < N.
| roughly wrote:
| I think there's a bell curve here - weird below N, cool above
| N but below X, and sufficiently full of unwanted penises
| above X to get weird again.
| chuan_l wrote:
| I think two decades on and with " instagram " and other social
| media people have lost their innocence if you will call it
| that. Every image or camera shot is now curated , chosen from
| multiples and even post - processed at the moment of its
| inception. I used to wonder many years ago that if you could
| record all of your life in real time as a film from conception
| to the end. What that might be like to watch ? Self - image on
| social media is very much like that , an endless performance to
| a great invisible crowd ..
| karlzt wrote:
| This submission comes from this comment from yesterday:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36854960
|
| People in 1920s Berlin nightclubs flirted via pneumatic tubes
| (2017): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36854061 (307
| points, 1 day ago, 123 comments)
| sfuller808 wrote:
| [dead]
| pmayrgundter wrote:
| Wow that place looks rad.
|
| Another early one was @Cafe! They broadcast using CU-SeeMe when
| it came out for testing from Cornell. Back in like 94? smth like
| 256x256 greyscale, 1-10fps if we were lucky, but a pretty
| reliable audio channel and text console for group chat.
|
| Anyone here from there? I was critt34 from CMU.
|
| A memory.. I met Seal on it once! He was at a party in LA and the
| host had CUSeeMe opened on the same reflector @cafe usually hung
| out on. I was DJ'ing Ministry on the channel from my dorm room at
| the time and then someone came to comment on the music.. and I
| suddenly recognized him.. OMG, you're Seal! He laughed and we
| talked a bit about Koyaanisqatsi and then he said he was helping
| on the soundtrack for Naqoyqatsi.
|
| Early web/internet days were so enchanting
| cglong wrote:
| The most interesting thing to me is the timing: this opened just
| one month after 9/11, the event that ushered in a new era of
| state-sanctioned surveillance.
| macNchz wrote:
| The video by one of the creators (at the very bottom of the page)
| is super interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i3db-QgHYE
|
| I was too young for this when it happened, but it reminds me a
| bit of when randomized video chat sites (Chatroulette and
| others?) first got popular in ~2009. I was a senior in college at
| the time, and we'd have big house parties during which we'd sit a
| webcam on top of a TV in the living room and just let it run,
| connecting to random strangers. Fun and interesting dynamic as
| people milled around the party and had brief interactions with
| people from around the world.
| stevenhubertron wrote:
| I have spent many nights there. I was good friends with the
| bartender and was there at least 1 night a week. Fun time. Have
| lotsa photos of it.
| paulgb wrote:
| Neat! In case anyone else is curious where it was, apparently
| it's the present-day location of the Bowery Electric.
| https://www.theboweryelectric.com/
| nhod wrote:
| Trivia: it's called Bowery Electric because for many many years
| before we moved in with Remote it was a hardware store
| called... Bowery Electric.
| pauldix wrote:
| I went here in November 2001 right after it opened. It was my
| first time in NYC. I loved it, thought it was so cool. After that
| trip I decided I'd have to live in this city at some point. Moved
| here in 2005 and been in NYC ever since. Remote Lounge always
| reminds me of how magical and full of possibility the city felt
| (indeed still is!)
| foobarbecue wrote:
| There is a misplaced apostrophe in the title.
| foobarbecue wrote:
| I'm curious -- why the downvotes? Does someone think I'm
| incorrect?
|
| The title here, to me, reads "Way ahead of it is time: The
| Remote Lounge NYC." I had to think about for a bit before I
| realized what was going on. I just thought someone might want
| to correct it.
|
| Edit: I see it's wrong in the original, so we just keep it, I
| suppose.
| kelnos wrote:
| I expect you were downvoted because your post isn't
| particularly interesting, and won't lead to thoughful
| discussion, let alone thoughtful discussion about the article
| in question. Sure, someone who doesn't know the difference
| between "its" and "it's" might learn something, but, while
| I'm not going to go so far as to say "that's not what HN is
| for", it's... well, kinda not what HN is for.
|
| Another -- unfair -- reason is that some posts about grammar
| and spelling come off has holier-than-thou nitpicking. I
| don't believe that describes your particular post, but it's
| hard to convey tone/purpose in text, and people get annoyed
| by stuff like that.
|
| I didn't downvote you (at 21 hours later, it doesn't matter
| at this point), but if your post was "in the way" of
| scrolling to more interesting conversations, I probably would
| have. I come to the comments on articles because I'm curious
| about what people are saying about the content of the article
| (and was thrilled in this case to find that a commenter here
| was actually the person who built the software that ran this
| bar). As much as I do believe that language and clarity is
| important, I don't particularly care if someone mistyped an
| apostrophe into the article's title. It's just noise to me.
| ShadowBanThis01 wrote:
| Looks like the title of this post has been fixed.
|
| People downvote facts here, and persecute you for providing
| corrections that are helpful to everyone. It's infantile and
| depressing.
|
| They need to stop and think: How do people learn? Often from
| reading. Where do people do most of their reading now?
| Online. So when you attack people who correct incorrect
| writing online, you're attacking people who want to learn.
| Most foreign-language speakers, for example, WANT to be
| corrected so they know how to speak and write the language.
| keepper wrote:
| Way to bring a memory back. I remember going to this place.
| Definitely wish there were more places like this now ( in nyc and
| elsewhere )
| paulorlando wrote:
| I had heard about this place, but sadly never visited. But after
| it shut down I was part of a startup that built a way for people
| to do this with audio only -- via phones and a web browser. We
| intentionally avoided video and images after studying the way
| strangers interacted across different formats. Remote Lounge
| looks fun, but for us it was more about long conversations where
| you didn't care about the other person's looks. I sometimes feel
| nostalgic for this type of thing.
| kilroy123 wrote:
| Very cool. I wish I could have visited. I miss wacky theme bars
| like this.
|
| One of my favorite theme bars was a place in Mexico City called
| "Bang Bang" (closed down years ago).
|
| It was Stanley Kubrick themed. There were little black and white
| TVs everywhere playing weird stuff. Then in the back was a
| replica 2001: A Space Odyssey bedroom; from the end of the movie.
| With a glowing white floor. Many people would pile into the bed
| to smoke, drink, and make out.
| donretag wrote:
| Not too far from the Remote Lounge was a Clockwork Orange
| themed bar named Korova Milk Bar around the same time.
| nhod wrote:
| So many memories flooding back. We once had a party at
| Razorfish and I somehow got in touch with random downtown
| people who made weird alcohols. One of them was a woman who
| made legit absinthe from real wormwood back before absinthe
| was legal again, and the other one was a woman who made some
| sort of narcotic "milk" alcohol inspired by A Clockwork
| Orange. I'd be shocked if it wasn't the same woman as this
| bar!
| vxNsr wrote:
| Just for reference korova is russian for cow.
| ShadowBanThis01 wrote:
| There are still some. In Milwaukee, and now Chicago, there's a
| spy-themed bar called The Safehouse. The Milwaukee one has
| survived for decades, and they're still regarded as pretty
| cool.
| cguess wrote:
| Milwaukee is a weird town (disclosure: my home town, but left
| awhile ago). If it wasn't so close to Chicago, people would
| talk about it like Seattle or Portland. It's quirky with a
| world-class art museum, the largest music festival in the
| world every summer, a very reasonable cost of living, world-
| class universities, and amazing outdoor opportunities sitting
| directly on Lake Michigan and being a 30 minute drive from
| tons of massive state parks.
| ShadowBanThis01 wrote:
| I'm from Chicago, and I think Milwaukee is pretty cool.
| SummerFest was always so much better than Taste of
| Chicago... at least the acts that played there. I never
| even went, and I'm still confident that it's true.
|
| One of my best friends lives in the suburbs along the lake,
| and it's similar to the north shore of Chicago. Nice
| neighborhood.
| MrMan wrote:
| [dead]
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