[HN Gopher] Apple Vision Pro developer kit
___________________________________________________________________
Apple Vision Pro developer kit
Author : Pulcinella
Score : 146 points
Date : 2023-07-24 17:36 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (developer.apple.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (developer.apple.com)
| hashtag-til wrote:
| Are HN excited with this gadget?
| mgrandl wrote:
| Can I apply in Germany? My dev account recently expired, but I
| would renew it for a chance to get my hands on the dev kit...
| stirlo wrote:
| I doubt someone who's such a small developer that they recently
| let their dev account expire would be considered for this.
| They'll be targeting big and established developers not people
| who decide to spend $99 on a dev account so they can access
| cool toys early.
| mgrandl wrote:
| Yeah for sure, I am just wondering whether they technically
| send them out in Germany, or whether this is US only.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Of course there are plenty of large German companies with
| the means to pay for a full developer kit and who are part
| of the Apple ecosystem in some way.
| jjkeddo199 wrote:
| I hope Apple releases a haptic feedback type of electrode
| addon+API to the Vision Pro, similarly to how rumble controllers
| work for gaming consoles.
|
| Imagine having an electrode that you could stick to the back of
| your neck to simulate onTouch/onPress events. Imagine being able
| to feel raindrops or gusts of wind in videogames. Immersion would
| be greatly increased from this feature alone!
|
| Apple would be foolish to omit something like this!
| [deleted]
| ceejayoz wrote:
| I went to a "4D theater" at Disney World once that simulated an
| alien xenomorph run amok on a space station. It'd get close and
| there'd be a puff of breath on your neck; it'd go dark,
| someone'd scream and you'd hear juicy noises accompanied by a
| misting of water. Pretty terrifying as a 13 year old.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExtraTERRORestrial_Alien_Encou...
|
| > Air blown through soft textile tubes caused them to slap
| against the back of audience members' heads which, in
| conjunction with hot air blowers and olfactory emitters,
| created the most direct physical effect by suggesting the alien
| was licking audience members.
|
| That bit was _mean_.
| BigglesB wrote:
| Interesting that it actually calls out game developers right at
| the start despite everything else announced about the headset
| indicating that they couldn't care less about gaming on
| VisionOS...
| matt_s wrote:
| Uses of VR/AR outside of gaming are going to be niche. Gaming
| use cases could also be considered niche within the realm of
| gaming. For entertainment outside of gaming, observe any young
| person consume a long piece of content like a show/movie and
| they probably have another device nearby they are texting on.
| The goal for VR/AR should be distracted entertainment not
| immersive entertainment like most examples show.
|
| Mainstream use cases like office workers (I don't think Apple
| depicted this) are less likely in my opinion. Typical office
| workers (not developers/engineers like on here) are given a
| bare bones budget PC to do their job, like total spend of $500.
| Even if form factors for VR/AR get to "comfortable for 8 hours"
| levels I still don't see the ROI on the hardware for commercial
| purposes like office workers - most VR/AR headsets require some
| other compute device as well.
| crooked-v wrote:
| > Typical office workers (not developers/engineers like on
| here) are given a bare bones budget PC to do their job, like
| total spend of $500.
|
| The market here isn't typical office workers, it's execs and
| high-value workers like software devs. They won't even have
| the production at a scale large enough that it _could_ be
| available to typical office workers en masse for years at a
| minimum.
| matt_s wrote:
| Execs are typically spending their day mostly doing face to
| face things. Developers can have a lot of pixels in front
| of them very cheaply these days. I fail to see ROI in these
| use cases either. Being "more productive" usually doesn't
| quantify very well if it is all just a feeling.
| fragmede wrote:
| How do you propose measuring developer productivity
| though? Lines of code written? Unfortunately we've yet to
| figure out a metric for developer productivity other than
| "a feeling" and as a developer, sometimes I work better
| when other people are in the room. Unfortunately, the
| cheap pixels with a high ROI that are available to me
| don't travel well, so I either have to go somewhere and
| be confined my laptop, or someone else has to come to me
| and be confined to their laptop. (Having an office where
| that happens is so passe these days.) I have no idea if
| Apple Vision will let that be different, and $3,500 is
| too much for me to shell out, but I want to be in my home
| office but also have my home office colocated with
| everyone else's home office. Maybe I can setup my office
| in a self-driving car and it can shuttle me and my desk
| around to meetings.
| TheCaptain4815 wrote:
| Games produce the vast majority of revenue/profit for the app
| store. Actually, whales in gaming do that but same difference.
|
| https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/10/apple-vs-epic-70percent-of-a...
| shortrounddev2 wrote:
| Reminds me of
| https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2146412825...
|
| > Several things over the years made me conclude that, at his
| core, Steve didn't think very highly of games, and always
| wished they weren't as important to his platforms as they
| turned out to be. I never took it personally.
|
| > Part of his method, at least with me, was to deride
| contemporary options and dare me to tell him differently. They
| might be pragmatic, but couldn't actually be good. "I have
| Pixar. We will make something [an API] that is actually good."
| It was often frustrating, because he could talk, with complete
| confidence, about things he was just plain wrong about, like
| the price of memory for video cards and the amount of system
| bandwidth exploitable by the AltiVec extensions.
| RetpolineDrama wrote:
| This isn't going to improve until Apple gets a leadership
| overhaul. Look at the current executive team, it's all a bunch
| of boomers who think "gaming" is candy crush and farmville.
| nerdjon wrote:
| Their Mac announcements around gaming at the same conference
| seem to show otherwise.
| RetpolineDrama wrote:
| Their decades of failure and continued under-development of
| GPU with the transition to Apple Silicon says it all.
|
| A few developer tools that the suits probably have never
| heard of don't change that.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Their Mac announcement was basically a catch-up release to
| get DirectX working on Metal roughly as-well-as the Open
| Source Vulkan translator. If that's not an apology release,
| I don't know what is - it feels pretty clear that Apple's
| obsession over platform control has hamstrung game
| developers. They could have been a Steam Deck, but they
| chose to be a Steam Machine.
| nerdjon wrote:
| The unfortunate reality is it is also not 100% up to
| Apple to fix the issue.
|
| Windows has a very strong grip on gaming and you have to
| convince consumers and developers that it's worth it.
|
| The Steam Deck kinda got around that with Proton but it
| also means that if that becomes the norm for anything
| other than Windows, it is only fixing one of those
| problems while developers still continue to target and
| optimize for the main platform (Windows)
| smoldesu wrote:
| Apple had a shot at dethroning DirectX when they helped
| Khronos write the Vulkan spec. They eventually abandoned
| it in favor of Metal, but things would look very
| different if Mac, Linux and Windows all shared the same
| GPU APIs today. Even without Macs, both Windows and Linux
| have functional DirectX translators that MacOS could have
| also enjoyed for the past half-decade.
|
| Part of the problem is dethroning Windows. The other part
| of the problem is not being so greedy that you make
| Microsoft look reasonable by comparison.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Day dreaming?
|
| Apple had nothing to do with Vulkan.
| nerdjon wrote:
| They showed hints of what this could do outside of the floating
| windows in their announcement.
|
| Like the Dinosaur coming out of your wall and then also talking
| about Unity.
|
| We have to remember that when they talked about this it was
| around a year (or more if it isn't delayed) away from shipping
| and they talked about it at a developer conference. It was
| clear that they were focused on the technology it has and the
| mostly Apple developed experience of it.
|
| I still don't fully understand where the idea that this could
| not be used for gaming came from, except maybe the lack of (VR)
| controllers but I can't imagine not being addressed by the Mifi
| program later down the line.
| BigglesB wrote:
| Not saying it can't or won't be used for gaming, but the lack
| of precisely tracked 6dof controllers does severely limit it
| from being usable with a lot of popular genres of VR games:
| thinking Beat Saber & Pistol Whip specifically but anything
| with swords/guns/bows & arrow or generally precise twitch-
| based mechanics will likely not work well with just hand
| tracking.
|
| MiFi support down the road will be unlikely to solve the
| issue since without bundled controllers, the market size for
| games that require them won't be big enough to justify making
| them & vice versa... unless each studio does something like
| Guitar Hero & releases their own peripheral & bundles it
| together with their game...
|
| I can imagine lots of game genres that could work fine but
| they'll only be economically viable if the market for
| VisionOS games itself is big enough to support such a
| business model or if Apple jump-starts things by investing
| heavily in individual titles. Their messaging to date hasn't
| really suggested that they're interested in playing that game
| though.
|
| We'll see, though.
| JeremyNT wrote:
| > MiFi support down the road will be unlikely to solve the
| issue since without bundled controllers, the market size
| for games that require them won't be big enough to justify
| making them & vice versa... unless each studio does
| something like Guitar Hero & releases their own peripheral
| & bundles it together with their game
|
| Yeah, you're already talking about the most expensive
| headset, nevermind that added cost for controllers. With
| this price tag you're going to be talking about a tiny
| installed base.
|
| If it's easy enough to port stuff... and the controller
| ecosystem develops... well, sure, I guess this thing could
| find its niche. From an ROI perspective though it can't
| possibly be the _primary_ target for game developers, which
| means it gets ports... and with ports to niche platforms
| there 's always the risk of low quality / jank, which would
| only hurt the brand.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I think eventually we may see some tracked controllers,
| perhaps they shied away from them for launch because they
| would add to the already higher than expected price point
| and won't be used in most of the work-focused scenarios
| they seemed to present. Having to stop typing to pick up a
| controller to twiddle some 3d ui and then swap back to
| keyboard seems .. shitty.
| BigglesB wrote:
| Absolutely, controllers don't make sense at all for most
| of those kinds of use cases, and would only add friction.
|
| A device like this already has so many conflicting
| constraints to deal with that I'm not really surprised
| that they didn't prioritise the things that would benefit
| gaming.
|
| Hand controllers may well come a few years down the line
| (if the product line survives that long), but it's very
| much in line with their behaviour historically to
| initially avoid requiring additional input devices:
| anyone remember how long it took Apple to release a
| stylus for the iPad?
|
| Also seems like their efforts to protect privacy by
| restricting direct gaze input access may make certain
| kinds of gaze-related input actions tricky to implement,
| but the Unity video shared earlier suggested that they
| may be giving developers more access to that stuff (at
| least via Unity-based apps) than they'd previously
| implied.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Assuming their hand tracking is super fast (no noticable
| latency over controllers like on the quest), the biggest
| loss to not having controllers is haptic feedback. I can
| see haptic feedback being useful even in non-gaming
| situations, feeling buttons is better than not feeling
| buttons.
| lolinder wrote:
| > I still don't fully understand where the idea that this
| could not be used for gaming came from
|
| In the keynote they showed exactly one scene with a game:
| someone picks up a console controller and starts playing a
| basketball game... on a flat, virtual TV. That communicated
| pretty clearly to me that they didn't have any interest in VR
| gaming for this device.
|
| EDIT: Not the keynote, but this video [0] at 3:22 pitches
| gaming in exactly the same way: you get a big screen!
|
| [0] https://youtu.be/TX9qSaGXFyg?t=202
| detourdog wrote:
| Also if the device can be used as a legitimate tool it can
| be used for gaming. Gamers will figure out because gamers
| gotta game.
| [deleted]
| nerdjon wrote:
| I remember that, but just because they showed that doesn't
| mean that there are not other fully immersive capabilities.
|
| Like I said, we are talking about a product that is at
| least a year away when they first showed it off and they
| did tease other 3D setups.
|
| To me all that ever said was, hey you can pair a controller
| to this if you want. A natural extension of being able to
| watch a movie or whatever.
|
| I feel like saying no games based on that presentation was
| very premature. Really saying almost anything about what
| this can and can't do except for exactly what we were shown
| is premature given the large chunk of time between
| announcement and release and needing to see what developers
| can actually do with it once all of the pieces are ready.
| lolinder wrote:
| Yeah, I agree that saying "no games" is inaccurate, but I
| do think that Apple does not intend to prioritize
| "serious" games on this device.
|
| The way I read the keynote is that they intentionally
| left out any spectacular gaming content because they very
| much do not want people to treat the Vision Pro as a
| gaming device like the Oculus. It's intended to for a
| very different set of use cases, and they tried very hard
| to communicate that with the emphasis on passthrough and
| productivity.
|
| So while that doesn't suggest that there will be no
| games, it does suggest to me that the hardware and
| software will lend themselves much more to the casual
| games that are already prevalent on Apple's devices,
| rather than appealing to the PC or console gaming
| audience.
| kraig911 wrote:
| Well I'm thinking that the majority of ideas for this thing is
| going to be game related.
| MikeTheRocker wrote:
| What about the system level integration of the Unity game
| engine?
| AuryGlenz wrote:
| You can use Unity for things other than games.
|
| Not having controllers will be pretty limiting for gaming -
| some types of games will be fine, others definitely won't be.
| stouset wrote:
| You might as well write "Not having a keyboard or mouse
| will be pretty limiting for gaming" fifteen years ago
| before mobile gaming took off.
|
| Yeah, it will be limiting for the preexisting games built
| for preexisting VR systems. It will also be perfect for the
| types of games people envision and build for this
| generation of device. Not recognizing that seems more like
| a lack of imagination on your part than a failure of design
| on Apple's.
| stirlo wrote:
| I can see them having the ability to link a wireless
| controller for hardcore gaming like you can to Apple TV
| (and of course iOS devices).
|
| For everything else games could use hand tracking with a
| similar control scheme to Kinect and Wii attempted.
| binarycrusader wrote:
| In an interview John Carmack did with Lex Friedman
| recently, one of the things that Carmack pointed out is
| that VR games such as Beat Saber were a perfect fit for
| requiring a controller since it was natural to move and
| slice through something without significant physical
| feedback (at least as represented in the game).
|
| However, most VR games that require a controller for VR
| interactivity with "real world objects" tend to fare less
| well as they create a cognitive dissonance between the
| actions the player is taking and their perceived results.
| Anecdotally, for the few VR demos I've tried I agree.
| fragmede wrote:
| The Novint Falcon is a force-feedback controller that
| gives that feedback. Imagine holding a pencil for
| writing, and using it to scratch the surface of a sugar
| cube and feeling the indentations, and then also touching
| the sides of it to literally feel out how big it is.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| It would be pretty insane not to at least try to court game
| developers here.
| whafro wrote:
| Might have just been based on what they could show at demo time
| - they can handle some core productivity stuff, but might not
| have had the time/access/team to put together something
| compelling on gaming for that date.
| MBCook wrote:
| I think they were trying very hard not to be pigeonholed as a
| games device.
|
| If they had made a part of the presentation (outside the 3
| second mention of Apple Arcade) about playing games I could
| see a lot of people spending even more time comparing it to
| an Oculus or PSVR2 and complaining it was insanely priced.
|
| Instead they did a pretty decent job of getting people
| discussing non-game use cases.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| This seems unlikely given how much effort they put into the
| physical demo experience at the unveiling event, according to
| nearly all attendees.
|
| It's more likely that it simply doesn't have the processing
| or cooling capacity for an impressive game experience.
| meragrin_ wrote:
| >> but might not have had the time/access/team to put
| together something compelling on gaming for that date.
|
| > This seems unlikely given how much effort they put into
| the physical demo experience at the unveiling event
|
| Can you name five games Apple has released in the past 10
| years?
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| > Can you name five games Apple has released in the past
| 10 years?
|
| How does such a list of games relate to my comment?
| [deleted]
| JoshTko wrote:
| Apple likely makes more in profit from App store games
| than Sony does overall.
| fragmede wrote:
| There's the How Much Will the Vison Pro Cost game,
| there's the When Will the SE 3 Come Out game, there the
| Will they Fix the Macbook Keyboard game, there's the How
| Many Ports Will It Have game, there's the Will They Give
| It HDMI and USB-A ports game, the Will They Switch Away
| From Intel game. You think I'm being facetious, but if
| you look at a game simply as a thing you spend time
| doing, and then consider the amount of digital ink
| spilled discussing those topics online and in-person
| discussions being had about them, the meta Apple is
| _endlessly_ entertaining.
| zen_1 wrote:
| I think you may have missed the part where games are
| supposed to be enjoyable (for all parties involved!)
| grumbel wrote:
| I think the biggest problem is the controller and
| locomotion. Almost all VR games available right now use
| controllers to navigate around the virtual world. Meanwhile
| Apple has shown nothing that allows you to move around in
| the virtual world. All locomotion you do on Apple's headset
| happens in the real world via AR, the fully immersive
| experiences are basically limited to standing or sitting in
| place.
|
| This has the advantage of dramatically increasing the
| comfort, since motion sickness is largely caused by
| artificial locomotion with the controller, but it also
| drastically limits what kinds of games you can do in VR.
|
| I would expect them to expand on this area eventually, but
| I can understand why they wouldn't for the announcement, as
| for the time being they want the focus on VisionPro as a
| friendly computer/monitor/TV/cinema replacement.
| soligern wrote:
| I wonder if there is a way to stimulate the vestibular
| system externally to make it feel like actual locomotion
| and perhaps improve on the motion sickness.
| lostlogin wrote:
| If you ever go near a high field magnet, they cause
| balance disturbances, so you can stimulate the system.
|
| However I'm not sure that putting 3T magnets near people
| isn't an option.
| pitched wrote:
| There's a very high overlap between VR sickness and
| normal motion/car sickness. That is also unsolved but
| with a much larger user base!
| [deleted]
| natch wrote:
| Not everything is always as it seems...
| TillE wrote:
| They didn't talk about VR gaming in their promotional material,
| but they partnered closely with Unity, and had a whole WWDC
| session about it. They care. They're probably just not quite
| ready to make a big deal about it.
|
| https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10093/
| gochi wrote:
| Apple has multiple problems here, ones that it can't exactly
| outpace which is that when they do start making a big deal of
| gaming they back themselves into a corner. They have to face
| the problem that VR gaming devices are much cheaper and have
| similar effect/more studios dedicated to making VR games.
| They have the other problem that the leading game engine or
| 3D content in general (Unreal) belongs to a company they
| would rather see evaporate.
|
| Very interesting times for Apple.
| brookst wrote:
| Game consoles are a lot cheaper than gaming PCs, but both
| seem to do ok in the market. General purpose devices always
| cost more than single-purpose.
|
| And I don't think they're losing sleep over Unreal. Plenty
| of games are done in Unity, and developers who want to ship
| on multiple platforms are leaning towards Unity in part of
| because of Epic's alienation of Apple and other platform
| owners.
|
| Definitely interesting times, but I don't think either of
| those considerations will have an impact on Vision's
| success (which is far from assured)
| gochi wrote:
| That's the point. Vision has to dictate itself as a
| general purpose device in the market, and so far they
| haven't done a great job at that. Their reluctance to
| lean into gaming is a huge part of this desire to present
| Vision as not some media consumption device but as
| something you should use daily for creation.
|
| Which is why they are backed into a corner, they have to
| paint this picture while avoiding the largest 3d engine,
| ignore stiff competition with other (largely gaming which
| is important to note since your point about general
| purpose vs specific is kind of nullified when other VR
| headsets can handle non-gaming well too) headsets, and
| get developers on board to start making apps for the new
| platform before any sweeping changes to the app
| marketplace take hold.
|
| It would have been nice to see Apple shift their weight
| behind O3DE instead, as Unity really has been struggling
| to capture an audience. Would have demonstrated a real
| commitment to creating 3D content. Those who ship on
| multiple platforms are really struggling to stick with
| Unity as it's made their lives harder the past ~5 years,
| when the same is easily achievable on Unreal or even
| Godot now.
| goosedragons wrote:
| A Meta Quest 2 is just as "general purpose" as Vision
| Pro. It's basically the Android equivalent to Apple's iOS
| based Vision Pro. Apple has a bigger problem with the
| fact that they don't have any sort of VR controllers
| similar to the Quest's or PSVR2.
| HDThoreaun wrote:
| Gaming PCs are not 7x more than consoles. $3,500 is just
| too much to get any widespread appeal and without that
| the game developers won't come.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Even with the Epic situation, I'm surprised to see Apple
| buddying up with Unity after they've merged with a company
| that used to make Mac-targeted fake "Update Flash Player"
| adware installers.
|
| https://www.sentinelone.com/blog/osx-ironcore-a-or-what-
| we-k...
|
| https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/07/unity-and-
| ironsources-4-4b...
| lostlogin wrote:
| > They have to face the problem that VR gaming devices are
| much cheaper and have similar effect/more studios dedicated
| to making VR games.
|
| I agree but look at the iPhone - gaming on that is a
| massive market and Apple do well off it.
|
| You can buy a different phone for a fraction of the price,
| but Apple are a market leader.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| My bigger question isn't the game studios or even the
| price, it's the controllers. Remains to be seen what sort
| of games people come up with that don't require the type
| of hand controllers with a thumbstick, grip/trigger, and
| a couple of buttons.
|
| You'll really need to design from the ground up with its
| very specific input capabilities in mind. Porting titles
| over that were made for Quest, PSVR, or PC will be
| difficult.
| blensor wrote:
| We've been designing our VR fitness game [1] around hand
| tracking since Meta first came out with it 3 1/2 years
| ago. So far I can say that we did not regret it, but it
| definitely requires some workarounds around the accuracy
| and speed you get from controllers.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5h2Jh6NygY
| shortrounddev2 wrote:
| Apple has always had contempt for games
| sleepybrett wrote:
| It might be a better take that apple generally treats games
| on an equal level to every other category of software. They
| just don't get much special treatment, historically at
| least ... ios may have changed that drastically (apple
| arcade is certainly a step in a direction). Meanwhile MS
| (even pre xbox) carved out work for them with things such
| as directx directinput etc.
| bluescrn wrote:
| When they released an Apple TV with an app store, casual
| gaming seemed an obvious use.
|
| But they came with a controller that seemed to be designed
| with the goal of ensuring that it was as useless as
| possible for gaming (also as useless as possible for
| entering passwords!)
| tashoecraft wrote:
| Apple is the third largest game platform. They don't have
| contempt for games. They just have no idea what exactly the
| vision pro will turn into so they aren't backing it down a
| path they can't return from. Selling it as a gaming device
| means that if they don't have the gaming market quickly
| enough, they might not be able to pivot to other markets.
| It's an open (ish, for apple) platform that the market will
| decide what it is to become.
| shortrounddev2 wrote:
| Mobile gaming isn't real gaming, it's virtual slot
| machines for toddlers and Apple should be ashamed for
| facilitating it
| joshstrange wrote:
| Apple has gone back and forth on if they care about games
| but I don't think I'd call it contempt. A bad strategy
| where they burn bridges with game developers due to talking
| a big game then not following through? Absolutely but
| "contempt" is a step too far I think.
| aprdm wrote:
| People use game engines for more than just gaming too
| VectorLock wrote:
| They couldn't care less about being the ones developing games,
| but they DO care very much about being the ones driving
| productivity apps which opens a whole corporate world for them
| to control.
| kirykl wrote:
| In other words we built the solution, now were looking for your
| problems
| Dig1t wrote:
| The largest question that they are not talking about is: will
| porn apps be allowed? Two very different futures depending on how
| that question is answered.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| jojobaskins wrote:
| God I hope not... Porn is probably one of the most malicious
| vices influencing how young people (esp boys) view themselves
| as shameful and romance as transactional. Technology wise there
| isn't much to build beyond full games since 360 videos have
| been around for ages now, just a player would suffice.
|
| Edit: Actually with ai gfs and all that crap there are many
| dystopian places devs could take this.
| nerdjon wrote:
| Maybe we stop also teaching that sex is shameful when it
| isn't?
|
| I really don't think porn is what causing people to think
| that sex is a shameful act when it is perfectly natural.
|
| Sure there are some valid discussions around porn and body
| image but so is there with advertising, movies, etc etc etc.
| It isn't like porn is the only thing pushing the "perfect"
| body image.
| dubcanada wrote:
| I am wondering as to why you think it is especially boys? Do
| girls who are completely surrounded by basically nude females
| with perfect bodies 24/7 not experience the same level of
| influence?
|
| If anything I would think it would be the opposite, that
| girls have it the hardest as boys expect all females to look
| exactly like they do in movies, billboards, porn, etc. Versus
| males which tend to be not great, but not nearly as bad.
|
| Anyways onto Apple Vision Pro... I do think that porn is an
| interesting question, I doubt Apple will do it. But whoever
| does will probably do WAY better purely because porn has been
| the reason for so many media format wins over the past
| century.
| dingnuts wrote:
| I think the GP is talking about porn's irresistibility
| among adolescent boys. Their use hurts both themselves and
| women, by setting bad expectations. You're actually
| agreeing past one another.. kind of funny considering all
| the down votes, especially since down isn't supposed to
| mean "disagree"
|
| Is the GP violating conversational rules or just voicing an
| opinion perceived as unpopular?
| dubcanada wrote:
| That makes sense to me, was mostly just wondering. I am
| not disagreeing, the phrasing was just strange so wanted
| to clarify.
| jojobaskins wrote:
| Social media is definitely worse for girls, but most
| consumers of porn are boys. In any case, setting clear
| bounds of interactivity is good and it looks like Apple
| isn't allowing direct porn experiences on Vision Pro
| because those apps will available through the app store.
| piyh wrote:
| Porn has been VR, and this an AR machine. This could be the
| robo-gf bladerunner 2049 experience. You're thinking too
| small.
| CharlesW wrote:
| > _Porn has been VR, and this an AR machine._
|
| Apple Vision Pro does both. Even when you're using it for
| AR use cases, you're seeing reality as captured and
| processed by the AVP.
| herval wrote:
| porn has existed since humans were able to draw pictures on
| cave walls, and on every kind of medium invented since. That
| "malicious vice" won't go away any time soon
| delfinom wrote:
| >view themselves as shameful and romance as transactional
|
| No, you can thank social media algorithms on YouTube and
| TikTok pushing "influencers" like Tate.
|
| They get fed a stream of essentially shitbag instruction
| videos and individuals trying to be a "role model". They
| specifically garner audiences of young men.
|
| porn on the other hand has been around even for us
| millennials and older, we turned out fine. What we didn't
| have was the Tiktok and Youtube algorithms.
| Dig1t wrote:
| Your opinion is probably not popular, but I agree with you.
|
| I was speaking from a purely business perspective, from
| Apple's point of view they should do this to sell systems.
|
| For society, I think this is probably terrible.
| Slitted wrote:
| A quick look at the App Store answers your question: no. Those
| will need to be webapps.
| sshff wrote:
| As in apps that have porn as one of their specific uses that
| will be for sale in the official App Store? You've got more
| chance of Tim Cook announcing that the full line of Apple
| hardware will be switching to Android as a base operating
| system and only releasing with pink flocked finishes from now
| on.
| nerdjon wrote:
| Sadly most likely not given the App Store right now.
|
| This (well not porn specifically but related) is my biggest
| concern about the Vision Pro. They are trying to bill it as a
| computer (like the iPad) and while I am sure for a lot of
| people they will be able to do most of their work and play on
| this device, I am worried about how closed it will be.
|
| I love my Apple devices, but I find it very frustrating that
| even with how powerful the latest iPad's are that as long as it
| remains a closed platform I will never be able to do my job
| (writing code) on it and I worry the same will be true for this
| device.
|
| I am excited about the vision pro personally, but it slightly
| annoys me that the people that they need to court to make this
| a success (developers) can't do their job on the device itself.
|
| But I also find myself on the flip side and the closed platform
| is part of why I choose Apple also.
| mdgrech23 wrote:
| I mean couldn't they just not allow porn apps but allow you
| play video and what's on those videos is up to you?
| VectorLock wrote:
| You don't need a $3000+ AR headset to play videos.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Sure, but there will be enterprising developers looking to go
| _far_ beyond that not very interactive approach. Hand
| tracking plus a full gaming PC plus 3D rendering has some...
| obvious possible end results.
| VectorLock wrote:
| It sounds crass, but this really would be the make-or-break
| use-case just like it was for the VHS and DVD formats.
| herval wrote:
| webxr is supported, so web-based apps will work
|
| as for official app store apps, I highly doubt it
| madeofpalk wrote:
| Porn apps are not allowed on any of their existing App Stores,
| so I'm not sure why this would be different.
| Dig1t wrote:
| Well, this platform is uniquely well suited for porn. It
| would be a massive system seller for them if it were allowed.
| It goes beyond just videos, interactive experiences are a new
| thing for porn and you need to actually be able to install an
| app to make them work.
|
| There is historical precedent for platform winners being the
| one that had the support of the porn industry. See: Blu-ray
| vs HD-DVD and others.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| The closest Apple is likely to get is allowing some form of
| side-loading.
| qingcharles wrote:
| They'll probably be forced into side-loading, like the EU
| is doing with iOS right now.
| chasd00 wrote:
| The AR experience of a virtual door in your living room, a
| knock, then opening the door and in steps a pornstar who
| then sits down on your couch would be revolutionary.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| You think Apple's going to have a massive change of heart
| and let porn onto their App Store?
|
| The question here isn't whether you think Porn is a unique
| application of AR/VR, it's whether Apple would allow it
| onto their curated App Store.
| dingnuts wrote:
| There are definitely apps for playing 3D 3/6DOF videos over a
| network available in the Oculus store, like Skybox VR
|
| I guess that isn't a porn app but neither is a web browser,
| technically. Are people installing first party porn apps on
| their other devices?
| dandellion wrote:
| So what are the chances that this ends up like Betamax? I
| mean that a technically inferior alternative will allow porn
| and take over.
| s4i wrote:
| That is not why Betamax failed. There was porn on beta.
| Betamax failed because the cassettes didn't hold as much
| tape as VHS and JVC's licensing model for recorders was
| cheaper and more straightforward than Sony's. In the rental
| market, the format with slightly less friction was a bit
| more popular each year, which sealed the deal by the
| mid-80s.
| MBCook wrote:
| Plus, when Beta made alterations to fit more on a tape
| (extended play modes to use the VHS term), the quality
| dropped to close to VHS levels, so the advantage was
| gone.
|
| Even then, VHS could do the same thing, drop quality
| more, and fit EVEN MORE on a tape.
|
| It seems pretty clear to me, ignoring licensing which was
| a huge issue, that beta was designed for recording TV
| shows while VHS also had movies in mind.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| VHS didn't have manufacturer-controlled content purchasing.
|
| The other major VR device manufacturers have a similar
| approach; you get the apps and content through their
| stores. Sony, Facebook, Google, etc. are all similarly
| unlikely to have official porn support; Steam is perhaps
| the most likely (as they permit at least some adult gaming
| on their store).
|
| I suspect you'll see plenty of porn apps in jailbreak /
| sideload world. Quest already has 'em that way.
| MBCook wrote:
| We still don't know whether or not there is an official
| side loading story (ala Mac) or if it's locked down (ala
| iOS, though I think that's odds favorite).
| herval wrote:
| What's the chances the iPhone will end up like Betamax? It
| doesn't offer porn apps, after all
| fragmede wrote:
| Safari visits Pornhub just fine. The question is if video
| playing will support side-by-side video for 3D in the
| browser.
| herval wrote:
| Since webxr is confirmed to be supported, and u can do 3d
| video with it, it'd be extremely unlikely they would
| restrict that
| dandellion wrote:
| Higher than zero, its market share is much lower than
| Android.
| MBCook wrote:
| I agree. It's been 16 years. Clearly failed like Beta.
| turnsout wrote:
| There's always WebXR...
| fidotron wrote:
| [removed]
| tagraves wrote:
| Isn't this exactly what Apple did with the M1 chips when they
| were first being released? Plus, Apple announced they would do
| developer kit applications for the Vision Pro at the same time
| they announced the Vision Pro, so they couldn't have based this
| decision on the traction with third party developers.
| WraithM wrote:
| It is exactly what Apple did with the M1 chips. I had a
| developer kit Mac Mini with an M1 chip in it that I sent back
| to Apple when the developer period was over.
| fidotron wrote:
| [removed]
| TillE wrote:
| This is Apple, they have billions in cash on hand. There's
| very little pressure to make money on the first gen Vision
| Pro, not if they're committed to the product line long
| term.
|
| Anyway, it's been reported that manufacturing these has
| been a slow process, hence the slow rollout. They don't
| expect to sell a ton, not at $3500.
| MBCook wrote:
| Yes. And the Intel switch before it.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| There's not really many details here, and because I don't have a
| paid developer account I wasn't able to see what's on the other
| side of the Apply button, but are there any details on the terms?
| I'm curious about costs and other restrictions.
| Pulcinella wrote:
| Terms & Conditions PDF:
| https://developer.apple.com/visionos/developer-kit/apply/sta...
| dblitt wrote:
| > Microsoft Word - Vision Pro Developer Kit Program Terms
| (FINAL).docx
| madeofpalk wrote:
| Thanks! Exactly what i was after
|
| Edit: No mention of costs in the T&Cs, but i did find it
| amusing that you must use it in a room with "solid doors,
| floors, walls and ceiling, and locks that can be engaged when
| the DK is in use"
| linsomniac wrote:
| So you're in a locked room... and injure yourself. And
| paramedics break in to help you. Violation of your T&C.
| treesciencebot wrote:
| Wow, this is pretty strict. If you are working from home,
| don't let your children or partner even see it.
|
| > You must ensure that unauthorized persons (including any
| family, friends, roommates or household employees) do not
| access, view, handle, or use the DK.
| gardenhedge wrote:
| Huh? My children and partner never use my work stuff
| josho wrote:
| I think this is just to catch the potential loophole of a
| roommate trying it out and blogging about their experience.
|
| If that happens then this clause means you are in contract
| breach.
| dagmx wrote:
| Pretty common for developer kits though. Its the same deal
| for previous developer kits, and consoles etc...
|
| Its an extension of the NDA to everyone around you, but
| since you can't bind them to an NDA, you say that the
| person who is bound to it is on the hook for transitive
| breaches of the NDA
| cududa wrote:
| It's unlikely to be seeded to indie devs working from home.
| Even massive companies are only going to get 1 or 2, and
| those are going to be locked in a room in the office.
| 4ad wrote:
| If it's like the Apple Silicon dev kit, this is not true.
| Everybody got it, big and small.
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| > If it's like the Apple Silicon dev kit
|
| It's not.
| cududa wrote:
| This is going to be nothing like the Apple Silicon dev
| kit bro. They're expecting to be able to manufacture
| about 250,000-350,000 a year. They need those for Apple
| Stores, their own internal development, and of course
| customers. This is probably going to be more like 1,000
| dev kits or less that go out.
| ingenieros wrote:
| They are treating this as a major game console sdk with all
| the NDA's that come with them.
| samstave wrote:
| [flagged]
| baby wrote:
| Compare this with the Quest devkit:
| https://developer.oculus.com/quest/
| jbverschoor wrote:
| For Apple TV they did the same.. it could've been an awesome
| gaming platform, but the remote was the worst ever.
| bogwog wrote:
| So to get this you need to apply by giving your app idea to a
| company notorious for stealing third party app ideas?
| paxys wrote:
| Don't worry, they aren't going to steal your app idea. They
| will wait for it to get successful first.
| delfinom wrote:
| They also reserve the right to kick you out of the app store
| once they have their clone ready :D
| nmjohn wrote:
| Which apps have they done that to?
| lostmsu wrote:
| I remember something about phone usage trackers.
| bangonkeyboard wrote:
| FlickType: https://www.inverse.com/input/tech/apple-
| blocked-the-flickty...
| pk455 wrote:
| as opposed to putting it on their store as people have done for
| 10+ years?
| jeroenhd wrote:
| You don't get Sherlock'd until you've proven your idea works
| when your app becomes popular. That way, you take all the risk
| and they don't even need to think about what ideas are worth
| stealing!
|
| In this case, it'd probably be wise to patent your app before
| even applying for the dev kit, just in case. You'll still be
| fighting Apple in court eventually, but you'll make more money
| through hostile takeovers than when you get copied, replaced,
| and dumped.
| f6v wrote:
| I don't download any apps except maybe 3 or 4. What have they
| stolen?
| ycombinete wrote:
| F.lux is another to add to the pile. IIRC apple broke the
| part of their API flux used in the same release that they
| added the feature to iOS.
| joshstrange wrote:
| I used F.lux for many years but Night Shift is better IMHO.
| Should Apple instead refuse to build in feature if a
| version exists in the world? Also F.lux was free, so I'm
| not sure exactly what was lost, it seems like it's still
| around if you prefer that over Night Shift.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_(software)
|
| > The phenomenon of Apple releasing a feature that supplants
| or obviates third-party software is so well known that being
| Sherlocked has become an accepted term used within the Mac
| and iOS developer community.
|
| (Honestly, I think the fuss over Sherlock was overblown, but
| they definitely have a bit of a reputation for this.)
| jahnu wrote:
| Here are a few more recent examples
|
| https://9to5mac.com/2022/06/16/sherlocked-apps/
| joshstrange wrote:
| I mean... you can call some of those things Sherlocked if
| you want but that's a pretty bad list.
|
| Does Apple build features into their core products that
| resemble other products on the market? Absolutely but
| often it helps raise the bar for that type of software.
| It gives users who were never going to go looking for
| another app something they didn't have before, it sets
| the floor for what they type of app should do/how it
| should look, and it gives existing apps a space to carve
| out a pro/prosumer space with features that Apple will
| never implement.
|
| Spotlight (specifically the Command+space popup) exists
| and I think that's a net win for macOS, I don't use it, I
| use Alfred and have no plans to leave. Same with Notes vs
| Drafts or Weather vs Carrot Weather or Reminders vs
| Things, and the list goes on.
|
| Does it clear out some of the bottom of the barrel
| versions? Yes, I'm fine with that. Does it sometimes
| integrate deeper into the system in a better way than a
| 3rd party can (Sidecar being a good example or Camera
| Continuity)? Yes, but should we all deal with a
| hacky/crappy experience just so that Apple doesn't
| Sherlock someone? My answer is no.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| This should be an antitrust violation solvable by Apple
| cash and stock and a third party valuation.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| I really don't see an antitrust violation in "we added
| the ability to more easily search your Mac, in a similar
| fashion to an existing app". Even the original Watson
| seems based largely off Google's "what if the search UI
| was just a single text field?" approach.
| artsytrashcan wrote:
| It's analogous to the MS/IE/Netscape situation 20 years
| ago. They would lose/have to settle on similar grounds, I
| suppose.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| They'd have to have a Microsoft-esque monopoly first.
|
| Apple doesn't currently have one in computers, mobile
| devices, or VR.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| that's not the antitrust violation and that's not what
| Apple is doing, the violation would be
|
| "come into our walled garden where you pay to agree to
| these onerous and arbitrarily applied terms, we analyze
| every possible app to see every app and idea _per
| version_ , and then copy the ones that take off allowing
| it to function outside the constraints of our walled
| garden while continuing to apply these arbitrarily
| enforced terms to you debilitating your business in
| unnecessary ways"
|
| the regulator and existing antitrust statutes can
| override the clauses that someone agreed to that
| perpetuates this, and they should. with the alternate
| route for Apple being to pay the developer beginning at
| an independent third party's valuation.
| natch wrote:
| Ideas don't belong to anyone. I can think of a search-my-files
| idea just as well as anyone can, and Apple can do the same.
| brookst wrote:
| There's a common fallacy that a brilliant idea is the hard
| part of building a business. People who consider themselves
| "idea people" see execution as a footnote that any pleb can
| do.
|
| The reality is exactly the opposite: ideas are a dime a
| dozen, good execution is _hard_.
| alaskamiller wrote:
| After twenty years of hearing the same thing over and over
| again I believe the actual fallacy is that ideas are a dime
| a dozen, good execution is hard.
|
| Now I learned ideas and execution are minimum requirement,
| good execution is common, great execution is hard, good
| ideas are hard, great ideas aren't worth it.
|
| Starting with a good idea can save you plenty of
| opportunity cost, money and tears; but many can't explain
| nor tell apart what a good idea really is.
|
| Then you have the metaphorical sand trap of great ideas.
| Don't get stuck in those.
|
| And, finally, it doesn't even matter if it's good ideas nor
| good execution, if people don't know your story nor are
| they willing to retell your story then none of this matters
| in the market.
| natch wrote:
| Do you use an Android phone, by any chance? I hate to break it
| to you... hard to have it both ways.
| vanjajaja1 wrote:
| I don't think they're interested in ideas and potential, they
| seem interested in proven track record teams that have existing
| apple apps
| martythemaniak wrote:
| There's one app I'd love to develop and use for this and it's for
| home renovations. I want to put this on, then walk around my
| house, have it create a real-time digital version of my place,
| and quickly remodel and renovate. Move existing furniture around,
| try new wall colours, shop for art, change the flooring, browse
| new furniture, etc.
|
| I don't want to spend my few free hours driving around flooring
| warehouses, looking at low-res pictures of furniture on websites
| like wayfair, etc, I just want to sit/stand comfortably at home
| and see how things will be at the end and customize it easily.
|
| This could theoretically be a business. If you're gonna be
| spending tens of thousands of dollars on a renovation, it'd make
| sense to rent a headset for a few weeks while you decide on
| everything. And since there's a strong purchase intent, you can
| sell real stuff (floors, tiles, furniture) through the app as
| well.
| esafak wrote:
| Matterport without their camera, which also sells for $3000.
| alanwreath wrote:
| I am assuming this is temporary but I believe there is a
| limitation for how far you can walk with the device on, which
| seems to limit this type of app (I can't see this limitation
| persisting though )
| Tagbert wrote:
| I think that limitation is in VR mode where you are limited
| to a couple of meters. I don't think AR has that limitation
| and this idea sounds like an AR experience.
| ingenieros wrote:
| You won't be able to move more than 1 meter with this device.
| https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline...
|
| If a person moves more than about a meter, the system
| automatically makes all displayed content translucent to help
| them navigate their surroundings.
|
| When a fully immersive experience starts, the system defines an
| invisible zone that extends 1.5 meters from the initial
| position of the wearer's head. If their head moves outside of
| that zone, the experience automatically stops and passthrough
| returns to help people avoid colliding with objects in their
| physical surroundings.
|
| The system can stop an immersive experience when people get too
| close to a physical object or when they move too quickly.
| martythemaniak wrote:
| That's a fine limitation. You can stand in one spot of your
| room and browse and look, move to another spot, see how it
| looks from that angle etc. Obviously you still want to
| account for all the stuff that's currently in the space
| you're in.
| ingenieros wrote:
| If I'm understanding Apple's documentation correctly it
| seems like the app would automatically shutdown every
| single time you move to a new location. If this is the case
| then it would make for terrible UX having to reboot
| constantly just to get a full scan of the house as you
| envision.
| matt_s wrote:
| Sounds like a neat application of the technology. This use case
| isn't a tipping point for someone to spend $3500 on a device to
| imagine their space. If someone has that level of disposable
| money they are probably hiring an interior designer to
| redecorate.
| econonut wrote:
| Similar idea is for an interior design company to own the
| device and bring it out to your home after they've planned
| out your rooms. Same idea works for landscaping companies,
| custom home builders, etc. Clients can 'experience' the new
| design before committing to the designer's vision.
| vulcan01 wrote:
| A few years back, Lowe's tested their "Hologram Experience"
| using Microsoft's Hololens. I think it was only for kitchen
| remodeling.
|
| https://www.retaildive.com/news/lowes-microsoft-expand-holol...
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