[HN Gopher] Driver.js: Product tours, highlights, contextual hel...
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       Driver.js: Product tours, highlights, contextual help and more
        
       Author : thunderbong
       Score  : 289 points
       Date   : 2023-07-24 12:02 UTC (10 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (driverjs.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (driverjs.com)
        
       | amsterdorn wrote:
       | What's with the resurgence of marquee elements lately? They're
       | terrible for usability/readability and are visually annoying.
       | 
       | If anything this is a red flag for other aspects of the library.
        
       | debarshri wrote:
       | I just saw Walnut.io [1] demo for another product today. I
       | skipped through most of the demo, did not really understand
       | anything about the product. I think it is not the tool but really
       | depends on who and how these product tours are built.
       | 
       | I can imagine some products are complex and needs explanation or
       | hand holding by solution engineers, account managers etc. No
       | product ever is so amazing that you don't need help or product
       | tours.
       | 
       | [1] https://walnut.io
        
       | partiallypro wrote:
       | Cool js, but I absolutely despise websites or software that do
       | this.
        
       | welder wrote:
       | It's an old library... been using it for WakaTime since 2018 (5
       | years). It's very handy to highlight one feature on a page based
       | on a url param, for example when your FAQ wants to link directly
       | to a mentioned setting. We don't like product tours because
       | they're annoying, so we only display one highlight per page
       | showing the first thing you should do when onboarding. Like a
       | tooltip highlighting a button on the page, not a product tour.
        
       | omg_ketchup wrote:
       | I think this is great at what it does. The only issue I have with
       | it is the fact that if a targeted element is offscreen, it snaps
       | to it instead of scrolls to it. Otherwise very, very slick.
        
       | 1023bytes wrote:
       | Please include a Skip button if you use these
        
       | Ultimatt wrote:
       | If anyone is looking for a jQuery days version of something like
       | this https://zurb.com/playground/jquery-joyride-feature-tour-
       | plug...
        
         | partiallypro wrote:
         | Really wish Zurb would release a jQuery free version of
         | Foundation. I prefer it to Bootstrap, its lighter weight, but
         | would be much lighter if they stripped jQuery and made it pure
         | JavaScript/CSS.
        
       | ecuaflo wrote:
       | I also made a version of this https://github.com/CSFlorin/react-
       | onboard
        
       | tamimio wrote:
       | Problem with these type of tours is a lot of information shoved
       | into your face in short time and then it disappears, few minutes
       | later the user will be asking "what was this section for again?",
       | I tried it in a platform I built before, it was to fly drones and
       | some sections where to control while others for video feed etcs,
       | so you should know what to do before clicking due to the
       | dashboard complexity, users will be nodding their head and
       | hitting next without even reading any. Had to remove it
       | eventually and instead I added a little information icon for each
       | to hover over to get some info what that section is about.
        
       | WhatWorkingOn wrote:
       | Thanks, as a user I hate it. As a developer this is a great
       | library to use to satisfy product.
        
       | mercurialsolo wrote:
       | While as a product user I hate product tours, as a product
       | developer I always wish for an open source alternative. Library
       | looks super cool in terms of the effects which are slick.
       | 
       | Personally from over a few products have built, even the best
       | designed product tours get dismissed 90% of the time in SMB &
       | consumer products.
        
       | ricardobayes wrote:
       | There is really nothing new in this over intro.js, shepherd or
       | the other 10 competing modules.
       | 
       | If someone wanted to offer something new in the product tour
       | space, make a fully frontend-only tour that has the convenience
       | of the cloud-stored ones. (Aka be able to click on HTML elements
       | to attach steps).
       | 
       | I think this would be a nice product nieche for the companies who
       | don't want their product to phone up a random third party API for
       | a product tour.
        
       | local_issues wrote:
       | No no no no no.
       | 
       | Design your product to be understandable at first pass. Apple
       | famously doesn't do any of this with your iPhone, while Sony
       | forces you to do it on every new device.
       | 
       | Let the onboarding be a forcing function for usability. This
       | isn't a crutch, it's something worse and damaging.
        
         | c-hendricks wrote:
         | Guessing you're not familiar with the question mark icon in
         | first party Apple apps like Garage Band?
        
         | philvb wrote:
         | You really need both: solid, intuitive product design and good
         | new user onboarding. Even with a great product, new uses will
         | still need help discovering and understanding how to get value
         | from your product.
         | 
         | Tooltips aren't always the answer though. Onboarding that's
         | more seamlessly integrated into the experience are better, like
         | Retool, Superhuman, or Intercom. You can see those experiences
         | here:
         | https://twitter.com/philvb/status/1617921908510699520?s=20&t...
        
         | onion2k wrote:
         | If you're on a Mac, open a Finder window, then click Help ->
         | "New to the Mac? Take a tour". There's your OSX tour. It opens
         | a web browser pointing to https://help.apple.com/macos/big-
         | sur/mac-basics/ (or whatever version you're on).
        
         | bryanrasmussen wrote:
         | >Design your product to be understandable at first pass
         | 
         | implies never deliver any product complex enough that a design
         | cannot be made that is understandable at first pass.
        
         | Redsquare wrote:
         | I guarantee 99% of iphone users dont know 50% of iphone
         | features. You have drunk far too many apple marketing
         | paragraphs.
        
         | sebastianconcpt wrote:
         | Yes to the pretend you can't have this as forcing force for
         | usability but I'm good for adding it if the user answers "Yes"
         | to have a tour.
        
         | thyrox wrote:
         | Yes I agree 100%. These type of demos teach me nothing and are
         | annoying as hell.
         | 
         | The only button I'm looking for is the skip button. For the
         | rare cases when the UI doesn't make sense, reading the docs or
         | watching a demo video is far easier to follow as you can skip
         | to the relevant part much easily.
        
         | lxe wrote:
         | Thank you. I came here to make a similar comment. Anytime I see
         | a "tour" I know the interface is going to be annoying to get
         | used to.
         | 
         | Don Norman's "Design on Everyday Things" is a must-read for
         | anyone working with UX/UI. Also https://jnd.org/affordances-
         | and-design/
         | 
         | (Of course, these affordances change over time, so some of the
         | conventions/examples are a bit dated, but the spirit remains)
        
         | ericmcer wrote:
         | The one of these I don't hate was at Carrd. More of a
         | toggleable full screen overlay with arrows and notes pointing
         | to all relevant info. https://carrd.co/build/6881ccd20d634611
        
         | adolph wrote:
         | Apple does do product tours, example are animations here:
         | https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-17-preview/
        
         | mindcrime wrote:
         | _Let the onboarding be a forcing function for usability._
         | 
         | Sure, you always want usability and discoverability. But to
         | suggest that everything can always just be discovered seems a
         | lot like discussion of the elusive "sufficiently smart
         | compiler." Eg, an unattainable ideal that doesn't exist in the
         | real world.
         | 
         | I am not convinced that the current state of UX is such that
         | it's possible to make a UI where there is zero need for product
         | tours, documentation, video tutorials, etc. At least not for
         | moderately complex products and beyond.
        
           | popcorncowboy wrote:
           | > I am not convinced that the current state of UX is such
           | that it's possible to make a UI where there is zero need for
           | product tours, documentation, video tutorials, etc.
           | 
           | Agreed. All software, like much modern design, is starting to
           | look the same, which is heading to about as close as we can
           | get here: that _conventions_ are baked into apps to such an
           | extent that "everyone" "knows" what to do. But even these
           | huge sacrifices to homogeneity won't ever sufficiently cover
           | everything, or even close. At best we get common patterns,
           | like games, where you can relatively quickly get to grips.
           | But games are model worth considering. They don't smack you
           | in the face like Driver.js does but they propose a congruent
           | concept (progressive complexity).
           | 
           | Anyway. I don't know. UI is hard. Abstractions are hard.
           | "This button does this", "Click this to blah" is one
           | approach. Driver.js has its place. And for apps I'm not sure
           | the progressive complexity of games translates well (the app
           | environment doesn't generally scale along the same
           | progression vectors).
        
         | smt88 wrote:
         | > _Apple famously doesn 't do any of this with your iPhone_
         | 
         | You're arguing in favor of a product tour. iOS usability is
         | garbage. There are no affordances. Nothing is discoverable.
         | There are a million inputs (mostly gestures) that no one ever
         | finds out about unless someone tells them or they Google it,
         | and they're not consistent across apps, even first-party apps.
         | Sometimes "swipe the row left" means "remove," sometimes it
         | means "more actions". It's just a jumble of inconsistent
         | nonsense.
         | 
         | Watch a non-tech person use their iPhone. They have no idea
         | that they can do 50% of the things that they can do. Ever see
         | anyone use "shake to undo" for example?
        
           | jahewson wrote:
           | These are basically power user features. You don't _need_
           | them to get by on everyday tasks. They just help. Just like
           | right-click on the desktop.
        
           | MrBodangles wrote:
           | "Shake to undo" also doesn't work more often than it does.
           | You'd assume an OS-specific keyboard interaction would work
           | anywhere there's text input, but no!
        
             | pests wrote:
             | The only time I use that gesture is when I drop my phone.
        
           | enraged_camel wrote:
           | >> iOS usability is garbage
           | 
           | Yes, that must be why my technologically illiterate 90-year-
           | old grandpa was able to figure out how to use an iPhone after
           | being shown a single swipe gesture.
        
             | tekchip wrote:
             | My 65, at the time, year old father figured out Android
             | just fine. What point was your n of 1 example trying to
             | make?
             | 
             | Please try to keep in mind there is a wide breadth of
             | technical prowess, thought patterns, and comprehension out
             | there. What works great for some people doesn't for others.
             | Also something to keep it mind being able to "figure
             | something out" or "use it" doesn't necessarily make it a
             | good experience, or an ideal one.
        
               | superdug wrote:
               | Please excuse the last remnants of the technology debate
               | of "Are Apple products worth the higher price tag of
               | their very capable competitors?" It's been happening
               | since Apple came into existence with people defending or
               | arguing against Macintosh computers to where it is now
               | with cell phones and the higher cost of entry priced
               | iPhones. The ecosystem Apple created is the great
               | divider. It's a closed garden in every sense of the word,
               | but still a great garden where if you're okay with the
               | HOA, you can live right on top of.
        
           | brazzledazzle wrote:
           | > _They have no idea that they can do 50% of the things that
           | they can do_
           | 
           | Maybe even more than that. I know people that have used iOS
           | for years and don't know they can copy/paste text or drag
           | down to search in messages, mail and settings.
        
           | Etheryte wrote:
           | People not knowing some of the features is not really a
           | problem, because it doesn't matter. Every single one of my
           | elderly relatives can use an iPhone after a quick intro and
           | they don't need help afterwards. The device is essentially
           | self-serve once you understand one or two core ideas. Them
           | not knowing about some features is not a problem, they can do
           | all the important things without someone helping them out. No
           | other smartphone platform has delivered that.
        
             | not_your_vase wrote:
             | Haha, every few weeks I do some magic gesture, and my iPad
             | duplicates the current application in a separate window. I
             | never did it intentionally, and to this day I have no idea
             | how to do it back. Also, I can't fathom who and why would
             | want to do it.
             | 
             | But the good, old Apple troubleshooting works: nuke it, and
             | start again. If I close the app and restart it, then it's
             | back to its single window form.
             | 
             | Oh, well.
        
             | karaterobot wrote:
             | > Every single one of my elderly relatives can use an
             | iPhone after a quick intro
             | 
             | So, after an onboarding workflow, in other words. What's
             | the difference between giving them a quick intro, and their
             | being some form of onboarding built into the application?
             | Consider people who don't have someone on hand to introduce
             | them to the product: how should they gain that same level
             | of competence?
        
             | capableweb wrote:
             | > People not knowing some of the features is not really a
             | problem, because it doesn't matter
             | 
             | It does matter. I started using a iPhone maybe a couple of
             | years back, after using an Android phone for many many
             | years, and I still find out stuff randomly by chance that
             | they could have just told me about.
             | 
             | Biggest example when I just got the phone, took me maybe a
             | couple of days before I understood that swiping from the
             | top of the screen and down depends on if you're on the left
             | side or right side of the phone, which decides if you see
             | the notifications vs the "control panel" thing. Initially
             | it felt random which one it showed.
             | 
             | And I'm a technical user, probably in the top 1% when it
             | comes to technical knowledge compared to the rest of the
             | userbase of iPhones. And how do you think things like that
             | works out for the rest of the people who don't work with
             | technology for a living?
        
               | alaskamiller wrote:
               | My non-English-speaking first-gen immigrant grandma that
               | assembled rice cookers in factories back in her day
               | figured slide down for notifications, right slide down
               | for control panel, and slide up on day 4.
               | 
               | My mom didn't ask about it until after the first year.
               | 
               | So to answer your question... maybe it doesn't take to be
               | the top 1% of something.
        
             | sgc wrote:
             | Come on, iOS is not so special. Grandmas all over the world
             | get by just fine on an Android as well. If you don't do
             | much with your device, you don't need much. At the same
             | time, it is obvious that gestures should be consistent, and
             | the documentation should be clear, on device, and easy to
             | find.
        
               | superdug wrote:
               | I think you're missing a key fact about who cell phone
               | users _can_ _be_. The dumbest people on this planet can
               | still pick up any iPhone anywhere and be able to use it
               | even if they've never used the device itself once. It's
               | muscle memory to people who wouldn't know what to do with
               | a manual in the first place. You have to accept that
               | there is no barrier to advanced communication technology
               | to anyone with the means to procure said devices. While I
               | appreciate a finely tuned platform for my technology
               | uses, I still carry an iPhone in particular so that I
               | don't need to do all of that advanced tweaking and
               | personalization by sacrificing maybe 5% of my overall
               | performance by using an unmodified iPhone running iOS in
               | particular. Sacrificing that 5% of performance means the
               | device has no barrier of entry for 99.9% of humans old
               | enough and cognizant enough to procure a similar
               | technology and be able to fully interact with me on a
               | digital medium. Bringing it back to the topic at hand,
               | those 99.9% of people includes family members who didn't
               | grow up with electricity let alone technology.
        
               | Etheryte wrote:
               | I think this is a point where we'll fundamentally
               | disagree, for all practical intents and purposes, no
               | regular user ever has or ever will read the manual for
               | their smartphone. Your phone comes with one, have you
               | read it? Documentation is a crutch for complexity and
               | it's only acceptable for hard topics and advanced users.
               | Most people don't even touch the manuals for all the
               | appliances they own, never mind your elderly relatives.
               | If they run into a problem, they'll ask someone to help,
               | not look for the manual.
        
         | brigadier132 wrote:
         | Do you have data to back your assertion it's damaging? Because
         | I briefly worked in growth and the stats show these things work
         | and help people.
         | 
         | Apple gets a free pass because they have an army of unpaid
         | bloggers willing to write articles on how to get around some of
         | their terrible UX decisions (systems settings on iOS are
         | impossible to navigate)
        
         | dooraven wrote:
         | I think this is broadly accurate for consumer apps.
         | 
         | However, a B2B app ,which is where most product demo tutorials
         | are used, isn't like this. Good product tutorials are great for
         | salespeople to walk the customer through the app and sell
         | properly to prospective clients.
         | 
         | When the contract sizes are in the 10,000s or 100,000s and the
         | product is pretty complex then this is a good solution vs
         | having your sales and support staff having to firefight issues.
        
         | twen_ty wrote:
         | > Apple famously doesn't do any of this with your iPhone
         | 
         | Maybe that's why 50% of iPhone users still don't know that they
         | can use long press on they keyboard (or space bar) to gain
         | cursor control - and this is just one example.
        
           | ibdf wrote:
           | What's this black magic! Never knew it either.
        
           | logical_proof wrote:
           | iPhone user since switching from a Droid X. You just taught
           | me something that I have been dying for... thank you and way
           | to make your point.
        
             | seanthemon wrote:
             | Apple features famously taught in hacker news comments.
        
             | pests wrote:
             | If you press with a second finger anywhere on the keyboard
             | after activating it will switch to selection mode.
        
           | StockHuman wrote:
           | This is featured the first time you ever bring up the
           | software keyboard and then never again. You can see the
           | behaviour by booting up a simulator. They do have an
           | explainer, but it's very easy to dismiss if you expected to
           | just start typing.
        
             | jallen_dot_dev wrote:
             | > This is featured the first time you ever bring up the
             | software keyboard and then never again.
             | 
             | In other words, a behavior that something like Driver.js
             | can help you achieve.
        
           | ericmcer wrote:
           | You just changed my text messaging efficiency
        
         | kristiandupont wrote:
         | Hm.. I find that Apple products have tons of hidden features
         | that I discover after years of usage. I appreciate the clean
         | lines, I really do, but it does have a tradeoff when it comes
         | to discoverability, so this policy is debatable IMO.
        
           | ebiester wrote:
           | They have the "Tips" application that has all of the
           | features. It's on the front of a new app. What is stopping
           | you from discovering it?
        
           | WhatWorkingOn wrote:
           | The difference is it's intuitive to discover. Once you
           | discover this does something here, you start wondering where
           | else could this happen? You might wonder if you can adjust
           | the iPhone flashlight brightness. For me it was intuitive to
           | long-press the icon in control center to find more options
           | and I was delighted to discover that's exactly how it works.
           | 
           | Those little moments of delight and synergy are why I choose
           | the apple ecosystem.
        
             | discussDev wrote:
             | Half the time it does something, I don't know what I did,
             | and I'm in a rush and so instead of sitting down and having
             | a happy little moment I'm annoyed at having it do some
             | unexpected, unrepeatable thing.
        
               | WhatWorkingOn wrote:
               | I have never found that the case in iOS. Anything I click
               | / do unexpectedly I can reliably repeat the steps 99% of
               | the time, it's why I prefer iOS over Android with apps
               | that can modify the OS.
        
         | jabart wrote:
         | Have you setup an iPhone ever? Literally the first time you
         | setup an iPhone it walks you through onboarding and a guided
         | flow.
        
         | runako wrote:
         | Casual reminder that many (most?) assignments are to improve
         | existing products, not to build from scratch. Whether or not
         | one agrees with the sentiment of this post, there are certainly
         | places where quick wins are, in fact, still wins.
        
         | adrianparsons wrote:
         | I laugh when I see these because I've witnessed the process
         | that leads to them. It goes something like:                 1.
         | Relatively confusing UX is designed and built.       2. User
         | testing or executive review concludes the UX is relatively
         | confusing.       3. Product Manager says "We'll build a
         | slideshow/interactive tutorial!" to solve the problem.
         | 
         | The process and end result is completely understandable. It's
         | hard to rehash a design when you've already built it and gotten
         | buy-in.
         | 
         | I want to spend as little time as possible with most tools
         | (especially enterprise tools), and so often these interrupt my
         | work.
        
           | wpietri wrote:
           | It's understandable in some sense. But wow, the arrogance of
           | designing and building something and then only doing user
           | testing at the point where it's too late to do anything about
           | it. I could even forgive it the first time, but this just
           | happens over and over.
        
           | another-dave wrote:
           | While this can definitely be true, I think it's OK that some
           | experiences are geared towards power users.
           | 
           | E.g. Photoshop is very powerful & you can be very productive
           | but the controls aren't intuitive as a learner.
           | 
           | Aeroplane cockpits are geared towards being easy to do all
           | the complicated things need to fly a plane, rather than being
           | geared towards being easy to learn for non-pilots.
           | 
           | Feels like the "simple Vs easy" distinction.
        
         | willio58 wrote:
         | The "Hints" app is included with iOS, showing even Apple
         | struggles with this. Most things should be obvious through
         | using your product. For more complex things, it can be hard to
         | rely on discovery.
        
         | joshmanders wrote:
         | > Apple famously doesn't do any of this with your iPhone
         | 
         | I just got a new iPhone and set it up from scratch yesterday...
         | They do this, and it's everywhere.
        
         | catapart wrote:
         | If your product is simple enough to not need a tour, you should
         | design it like that; MOST products are definitely simple enough
         | to not need a tour.
         | 
         | But if you're making Photoshop, or a deep-functionality video
         | editor, or an enterprise accounting application, or a
         | diagnostics utility or...
         | 
         | If you're building any of those things (or something complex
         | like that), don't be afraid to keep it complex and use a tool
         | for building user familiarity. That's good design, actually. No
         | 'one-size-fits-all' solutions on UX, I'm afraid.
        
         | chadash wrote:
         | Sorry, this isn't practical for everything. Sure, a phone
         | should be intuitive. And more importantly, you don't _have_ to
         | know how everything works at first pass. You can build it over
         | time.
         | 
         | But, for example, I recently signed up for HubSpot as a CRM and
         | while I think that overall, the product is well organized and
         | intuitive, it's just difficult if not impossible to make it as
         | intuitive as a smartphone. The product tours really help.
        
       | boomskats wrote:
       | This looks great. What does it do differently to Shepherd[0]?
       | 
       | [0]: https://github.com/shipshapecode/shepherd
        
         | sdesol wrote:
         | Here's some community information regarding the two
         | 
         | https://devboard.gitsense.com/shipshapecode/shepherd
         | 
         | https://devboard.gitsense.com/kamranahmedse/driver.js
         | 
         | The popularity for driver.js has grown significantly in the
         | past few weeks. Not sure what is the reason for it though.
         | 
         | Full disclosure: This is my tool
        
           | boomskats wrote:
           | Your tool looks great, and I was never a huge fan of
           | shepherd. I just wanted to know the objective differences
           | between the two, or your reasons for building it. I'd already
           | looked at the repository stats.
        
         | mohamedattahri wrote:
         | Driver, shepherd, you probably see where this is going...
        
           | a-ve wrote:
           | A similar project named BabyJesus?
        
       | yewenjie wrote:
       | How does this compare with intro.js?
        
       | talboren wrote:
       | surely a good alternative to userflow which kinda sucks
        
       | marcopicentini wrote:
       | I always feel annoyed when I see this. Users don't read and skip
       | everything.
        
         | worldsayshi wrote:
         | As a user I only want to know about a feature when I need it. I
         | don't want a tour or of the blue! I want to do the thing I came
         | here to do. It's very unlikely that your new baby feature is
         | the thing I want to use right now.
         | 
         | This is why I love command palettes. It allows me to discover
         | features by searching for them. When I've searched for it -
         | then allow me to take the tour of where to find it faster/more
         | conveniently and/or show me the shortcut key.
        
       | philvb wrote:
       | Tours aren't always bad, but they're often just poorly
       | implemented, with too many steps that don't mean anything to the
       | user. Onboarding that's contextual, like embedded tips, or
       | relevant, like targeted onboarding by persona, or action-oriented
       | onboarding, like checklists tend to be better.
       | 
       | After leading onboarding and in-app education teams at Dropbox, I
       | started Dopt [0], which is a react component library and SDKs to
       | make it easier to build tours, but also more contextual and less
       | distracting onboarding experiences like embedded tips and
       | checklists. My hope with Dopt is that you can still build tours
       | when necessary (like 2 step tours to introduce a new feature),
       | but have a bigger and better toolkit for all types of onboarding
       | and education.
       | 
       | [0] https://dopt.com/
        
         | no_wizard wrote:
         | why does your website need to gather cookies? first thing I'm
         | hit with is a cookies splash screen, I'm wondering what I'm
         | being tracked for.
         | 
         | I'm also curious about this:
         | 
         | >Hybrid work
         | 
         | On the face of it, I like the upfront callout, however how did
         | you guys land on Hybrid being the solution? Especially in the
         | light of working 100% remote leads to more productive
         | employees[0]
         | 
         | [0]: https://thehill.com/business/4110598-remote-employees-
         | work-l...
        
           | philvb wrote:
           | For cookies: we're using Posthog for tracking and it's
           | helpful for us to understand how people use our website and
           | product.
           | 
           | Hybrid vs remote is sometimes polarizing, but hybrid has been
           | really great for us to balance the heads down time and no
           | commute of remote with being able to jam on stuff in person.
        
             | no_wizard wrote:
             | Interesting. When Hybrid was made as a decision, where
             | there any data points that were considered in that
             | decision, or was it just made from the start, or top down?
             | 
             | Do you think its not possible to have the same levels of
             | collaboration remotely if the culture adjusts for remote
             | only type expectations?
             | 
             | (I rarely get to ping decision makers about these things, I
             | apologize for the intrusion, I'm trying to gather as much
             | data on this as possible recently)
        
               | philvb wrote:
               | All 3 founders worked remotely at larger companies during
               | the pandemic and when we started the company in late '21
               | we knew we wanted to be hybrid, so it was made top down
               | from the start. For a small team, I personally think
               | there are culture and productivity benefits for being in
               | person. I think other companies have shown remote is
               | absolutely viable for small and large companies, but to
               | your point, there has to be a lot of intention around it.
               | I don't buy into the dogmatic views of hybrid vs remote:
               | I think it's more about understanding what's right for
               | you and the company, and as a leader making the culture,
               | policy, and practices work for what you want. For me and
               | Dopt, hybrid has been a dream :)
        
       | baron816 wrote:
       | I built a library https://github.com/Evernote/Aquaman meant to
       | accomplish some of these same tasks for a Redux app (also did the
       | same think for React context, but that was never open sourced).
       | 
       | The things this misses, I think, are that 1) you probably want
       | the state of you app to trigger a guided tour, 2) you probably
       | want a multistep flow at some point, and 3) the state changing
       | logic of that flow probably should be separated from the
       | rendering logic (all the steps of the flow should be together).
       | 
       | That's what I was able to accomplish with Aquaman.
        
       | dabeeeenster wrote:
       | Is it just me that closes these as fast as possibly whilst
       | grumbling about how annoying they are?
        
         | croes wrote:
         | Should be optional and you should be able to start it if
         | needed.
        
         | hombre_fatal wrote:
         | I think they are good when you can both skip them and do them
         | later. Usually you can skip them but rarely can I find a way to
         | restart it once I've decided I want to commit the energy to
         | learn the app.
        
           | chadash wrote:
           | Step 1: open free tier or trial account with new app I want
           | to take a look at
           | 
           | Step 2: open app, see your stupid tour, close it
           | 
           | Step 3: click around, realize this might be what I'm looking
           | for but more complex than I realized
           | 
           | Step 4: look for that maybe-not-so-stupid tour again, realize
           | there's no way to restart it
           | 
           | It's not all that different than opening up a piece of
           | assembly-needed furniture that arrives in the mail. Usually I
           | look to see it I can build it intuitively before I go to the
           | instruction manual
        
             | ricardobayes wrote:
             | Yep, I agree there needs to be a way to restart a product
             | tour
        
         | kristopolous wrote:
         | When it comes to UI concepts I've seen this and popups about
         | downloading the app and email lists and downloading the app and
         | following them on social media and downloading the app called
         | "the nag" a couple of times probably because calling it the
         | "fuckyou" is too many letters.
         | 
         | There isn't a fine line between helpful and hostile, there's a
         | big honking obvious one with flashing lights and sirens on it.
        
         | ericmcer wrote:
         | Usually feels like a crutch for bad design, but some products
         | just have a certain level of complexity
        
         | ebiester wrote:
         | Depends on use case. When onboarding a user, it saves support
         | emails when people can't figure out how to fulfill basic use
         | cases. It also highlights new features that don't deserve main
         | screen real estate but are requested.
         | 
         | It's only annoying when it's pointing out the obvious.
        
           | taneq wrote:
           | I think they're a design smell. If your interface is designed
           | well, you don't need them. If you hide features behind cute-
           | but-meaningless icons with no text tooltips, you users will
           | still struggle to find them even with an irritating
           | onboarding tutorial.
        
             | ativzzz wrote:
             | How would your users find out about a new feature on a page
             | that's tucked away into a menu without one of these?
        
           | dabeeeenster wrote:
           | "It's only annoying when it's pointing out the obvious."
           | 
           | No, I find them annoying every single time.
        
             | IggleSniggle wrote:
             | I also find them annoying, but begrudgingly appreciate them
             | too. Usually they are interrupting my flow to introduce me
             | to a new non-obvious feature, and sometimes those new
             | features are super useful.
        
         | dooraven wrote:
         | Yeah me too but to be fair technical users (we're on HN) are
         | probably not the target end users for the product that
         | integrates this.
        
         | Night_Thastus wrote:
         | An alternative I saw not too long ago was an app with a sort of
         | "discovery" button. By clicking it, anything you click
         | afterwards will be explained and tutorialized a bit.
         | 
         | So if you want to jump in right away, you can. But if you go
         | "What does THAT button do? What is THIS menu for?" it's great.
         | It goes more at the users pace rather than bombarding them with
         | info.
        
         | golergka wrote:
         | Most HN users likely do. But HN users are not representative of
         | overall population.
        
         | samwillis wrote:
         | No, but also a lot of users enjoy them. It's like marmite, you
         | either love it or hate it.
         | 
         | Also note that most product managers love them.
         | 
         | Quite often they are a symptom of a UI that isn't descriptive
         | to particularly discoverable.
        
       | nbhusal wrote:
       | I made a more complete library a while back for those interested,
       | driver has been known here for a while but Lusift is new and
       | doesn't have that traction -
       | 
       | https://github.com/lusift/lusift
        
       | redocneknurd wrote:
       | User onboarding tutorials implemented as wizards with masks have
       | never appealed to me. It's like navigating through a forest while
       | only looking down, limiting the overall learning experience. I
       | once had to implement one of these tutorials, and the data
       | revealed that very few people even used it. From that experience,
       | I firmly believe it's an anti-pattern to avoid.
        
       | djbusby wrote:
       | I like these, but only a little.
       | 
       | Don't force it on new users, but ask if they want a tour.
       | 
       | Only use sparingly when new features/buttons/changes are added to
       | the app. Only once per session. Prompt is Dismiss/Tour option.
       | 
       | It's better if your app has an "intuitive" UX. But an un-forced
       | tour can be helpful.
       | 
       | Its better than the sign-in interstitial to announce features.
        
         | wpietri wrote:
         | And please god offer a help menu somewhere that includes decent
         | docs and an opportunity to re-run tours.
         | 
         | So many designers seem to think I am opening an app with oceans
         | of time while asking myself the question, "What delights do
         | these wonderful people have for me today?" When in reality I'm
         | opening them to get a specific thing done right now. Which is
         | the moment when I am least receptive to somebody forcing me to
         | look at their product baby photos so I can say, "yes, your baby
         | is beautiful, no really".
         | 
         | The points where I'm actually receptive to a tour are _after_ I
         | 've completed my task and when I've just realized that I don't
         | know how to do the thing I want to do.
        
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