[HN Gopher] Fossil shows mammal sinking teeth into dinosaur
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Fossil shows mammal sinking teeth into dinosaur
Author : Hooke
Score : 66 points
Date : 2023-07-23 03:22 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| pleb_nz wrote:
| Pretty sure it would have gone both (all) ways where the
| opportunity arose just as it does between today's animals. I
| doubt people truely think that only dinosaurs were top predators
| across all sizes, groups and timeframes.
| peter303 wrote:
| I eat chicken regularly.
| kijin wrote:
| Can we tell whether the mammal was actually trying to take down a
| dinosaur, or it was merely scavenging on a (nearly) dead
| dinosaur? Signs of resistance on either of them?
| ksherlock wrote:
| The paper discusses that.
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-37545-8
|
| It is possible that the mammal was scavenging the carcass of
| the dinosaur when the two became buried. This proposed scenario
| would account for the large size of the dinosaur relative to
| the mammal (terrestrial predators usually favour prey that are
| not much larger than themselves, particularly when hunting
| alone), and the fact that the mammal was biting the ribs of the
| dinosaur when it died, which would otherwise have been
| difficult to access (but not impossible--see below) on a living
| prey item. However, while plausible, we cite three lines of
| evidence that challenge this hypothesis. First, the bones of
| the dinosaur are otherwise devoid of tooth marks, which are
| commonly left by carnivorous mammals while scavenging. Second,
| it seems unlikely that the two animals would have become so
| entangled, were the dinosaur dead prior to the arrival of the
| mammal. Third, the scavenging scenario does not predict the
| position of the mammal atop the dinosaur, since the mammal
| could presumably just as easily have eaten the dinosaur from
| ground level.
|
| We propose instead that the two animals were buried in an act
| of predation on the part of the mammal, only for both to have
| been entombed by a sudden lahar-type volcanic debris flow (Fig.
| 2). This hypothesis would explain the entwined nature of the
| skeletons, wherein the left hindfoot of the mammal became
| trapped within the folded left leg of the dinosaur when it
| collapsed to the ground. It would also account for the lack of
| tooth marks and other indications of scavenging on the
| dinosaur's skeleton, and for the mammal's position atop the
| dinosaur, as though to subdue its weakened prey.
| 23B1 wrote:
| _But Brusatte said there remained some legitimate concerns about
| the integrity of the fossil. "There have been doctored fossils
| from this part of the world before, and the scientists did not
| dig up this specimen themselves. The skeletons are no doubt
| genuine, but I suppose the poses of the bones could have been
| altered, although I have no direct evidence for this," he said._
|
| The downstream effects of a post-truth post-trust era.
| Kamq wrote:
| > The downstream effects of a post-truth post-trust era.
|
| All this era has shown us, is that we should never have been
| relying on trust in anything even close to science. Trusting
| people to put the truth their own career advancement is how we
| got into this mess with the replication crisis.
| wredue wrote:
| Dude what?
|
| Science is the single most reliable tool we have for
| uncovering the truth and explain nature. Nothing else is even
| in the same realm of explanatory and truth seeking power.
|
| The anti-science brigade moving from Reddit to HN is
| concerning. These people are branching out more.
| edgyquant wrote:
| Nope this is false and a gaslight perpetuated by vested
| interest. I thought the same btw
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36790301
| zgluck wrote:
| "There have been doctored fossils from this part of the world
| before" - so, he obviously means "from China". This kind of
| etiquette is weird.
|
| (And of course I pretty immediately felt the voting feedback on
| why. So much pride in a dictatorship; that is also weird.)
| maxbond wrote:
| Maybe they meant that region of China. Or maybe they just
| liked that phrase. I think you're reading too much into this.
| Etrnl_President wrote:
| Best China > West China
| earthbee wrote:
| It's not exactly a new phenomenon.
| https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/g3051/f...
| 23B1 wrote:
| Ah okay I feel better then.
| jameshart wrote:
| Seems dangerous to infer too much about the general behavior of
| entire species based on the observed behavior captured in two
| individuals at the moment they were being entombed in the lava
| flow from a volcanic eruption.
|
| Like assuming that based on some skeletons found under a volcanic
| ash flow that the normal behavior of humans was running with your
| hands in the air and screaming really loudly.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| This single group of humans almost always assumed the fetal
| position. Fortunately we were able to get a glimpse of this
| because they were captured in a lava flow. We may never know
| why they did that.
| blueflow wrote:
| Its the position you assume when in extreme pain.
| edgyquant wrote:
| That's the joke
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| No, I think they could be onto something :)
| riccardomc wrote:
| In this specific case the assumption is for the entire Mammalia
| class rather than just species
| Waterluvian wrote:
| This drives me mad about these sciences. They seemingly get
| captured by the PR need to sell a digestible narrative.
|
| I appreciate if they want to posit ideas, but so often there's
| this tone of absoluteness to them.
|
| I wonder if part of it is just the desire to make one's
| discipline more exciting.
| maxbond wrote:
| You don't think that has more to do with science reporting?
| inciampati wrote:
| It is due to science reporting, which is in an eternal
| crisis. It can probably never catch up with the state of
| the arts.
| karim79 wrote:
| > Experts revealed the 125m-year-old fossil that froze in time
| after being taken on by a small mammal a third of its size. They
| are tangled together, the mammal's teeth sunk into the beaked
| dinosaur's ribs, its left paw clasping the beast's lower jaw.
|
| I'm pretty sure my little dog would do something similar if she
| encountered a wild boar in the forest. I'm quite sure that if I
| were successfully chased down by a velociraptor, I would not just
| lay down and wait to be eaten.
|
| > Researchers said the discovery challenged a long-held view of
| early mammals as "fodder" for dinosaurs.
|
| I don't really get how that "challenges" any view at all. As if
| dinosaurs never got bitten nor scratched by stuff they were
| trying to eat. And with an erupting volcano nearby, I'd probably
| fight harder just for the hell of it and to mess with the
| palaeontologists.
| causality0 wrote:
| That fossil is too good. It's so complete and well-posed I'm
| almost certain it's at least been "reconstructed".
| firebirdn99 wrote:
| Like a giant monster rat, or a badger actually -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repenomamus
| rvba wrote:
| When a cat captures a bird, isnt that a situation where a mammal
| sinks teeth into a dinosaur?
| Tagbert wrote:
| Or...
|
| https://coronadovisitorcenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10...
| ricardobayes wrote:
| Looks like a mediahack to be honest
| ecf wrote:
| In my opinion, it's more likely that the mammal climbed the
| carcass to access meat that larger mammals already consumed from
| the ground level. Zero chance something this small is actively
| trying to take down prey as large as this.
| datameta wrote:
| It states in the article that there are zero bite marks on the
| fossil, so it could not have been attacked prior.
| massifist wrote:
| Is there a reason why they don't suggest the possibility that
| this was a mammal scavenging the carcass of a dinosaur?
|
| And would this be a surprise, other than providing an interesting
| specimen?
| riccardomc wrote:
| Yes, there is a reason: "The lack of bite marks on the dinosaur
| skeleton, the position of the mammal atop the dinosaur, and the
| grasping and biting actions of the mammal, collectively signal
| that the mammal was preying on the weakened dinosaur when the
| two were suddenly entombed by a volcanic debris flow,"
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| You can watch videos of Jaguar going into the water and fishing
| out cayman. Why wouldn't it be the same for dinosaurs? It's only
| a matter of size and strength otherwise no taxonomy is magically
| safe from any other.
|
| Otoh with the mammal smaller like that it seems maybe like it
| could be more self defense or trying to distract a predator from
| their young or something other then the mammal being the
| predator..
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