[HN Gopher] A Caltech Nobel laureate celebrates his 100th birthd...
___________________________________________________________________
A Caltech Nobel laureate celebrates his 100th birthday, then gets
back to work
Author : pseudolus
Score : 454 points
Date : 2023-07-22 19:00 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.latimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.latimes.com)
| ArcMex wrote:
| I particularly enjoyed this quote
|
| >"The main thing is finding something that you enjoy doing, that
| preferably doesn't harm others, and that tests whatever aptitude
| one has, that tests one's ingenuity,"
| xyzwave wrote:
| Followed by
|
| > "It's almost like a kind of a game. You against nature."
| alpineidyll3 wrote:
| If today's scientific community were as functional as Rudy
| Marcus' we'd still be progressing. The key moment of his career
| was prediction of an inverted trend in an unexplored experimental
| regime. In today's academia, he would have hopped to a startup
| rather than struggle for tenure with foreign ideas that don't
| support anyone else's old stack of fluffy papers.
| JumpinJack_Cash wrote:
| Progress is brought forward by people who are 'out there' and
| are 'out there' enough to let the whole world to know that they
| are.
|
| But you cannot confine it to science and academia, rather it's
| the general background 'out there-ness' of the whole planet
| which then finds its way in various sectors.
|
| In other words you don't get the Einsteins without the Hitlers
| and you don't get the Richard Feynmans without the Charlie
| Mansons
| mgaunard wrote:
| How is this legal?
| csomar wrote:
| So we should make it illegal to work now?
| mgaunard wrote:
| Well it's unlikely he's as productive as he was in his prime.
| melling wrote:
| He's likely more productive than most of us.
| saulpw wrote:
| Yeah, so? It's a lot more productive than a low-effort
| comment on HN.
| DocSavage wrote:
| He's a professor at Caltech and did Nobel laureate-level
| work. He might be less productive than his prime and still
| be competitive with other professors, particularly since he
| brings deep understanding of the history of approaches in
| his field.
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| There is an 80-year old astrophysicist at the local
| government research observatory here. The government
| doesn't pay him anymore, but he has his own grants. He is
| almost certainly the most productive person at the
| facility, running circles around people half his age.
|
| And he does everything. Is a leader, guide and mentor for
| all the young scientists. He does serious intellectual
| work. Sometimes spends all day out in the sun,
| improving/fixing/maintaining telescopes. They held a
| conference in his honor last month.
|
| The lesson is not to judge people's productivity using just
| their age as the gauge.
| adharmad wrote:
| Indeed. Hans Bethe did serious and solid scientific work
| way into his 90s.
| Frummy wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSt1m4NFUl8
| mgaunard wrote:
| Arthritis during surgery, nice.
| Frummy wrote:
| That's the joke
| toast0 wrote:
| Why would it be illegal? It clearly is something he wants to
| do, and something his employer wants him to do.
|
| In the US, various forms of age discrimination against people
| over 40 have become illegal over the years, including mandatory
| retirement. So the law is moving the other way.
| litoE wrote:
| According to George Burns, "once you get to be 100 you have it
| made because very few people die past age 100".
| ant6n wrote:
| Well, Mr. Burns is indestructible [1]
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/aI0euMFAWF8
| okasaki wrote:
| Presumably there's a bunch of teaching assistants in their 60s
| who have been waiting for him to die/retire for the past 30 years
| so they could get a crack at the job.
| Alex3917 wrote:
| Apropos of Oppenheimer coming out, the guy who invented the
| H-bomb currently works as a covid researcher. (Or at least an
| amateur one, not sure what he's actually doing.)
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| Not sure who you are referring to since Teller and Ulam both
| died a while ago.
| Alex3917 wrote:
| Dick Garwin: https://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/24/science/who-
| built-the-h-b...
|
| https://rlg.fas.org/2020.htm
| dctoedt wrote:
| Wikipedia: "[Dick] Garwin received his bachelor's degree from
| the Case Institute of Technology in 1947, and two years later
| his Ph.D. from the University of Chicago under the supervision
| of Enrico Fermi at the age of 21."
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Garwin
| pdonis wrote:
| "Invented" is an overstatement. He authored the first detailed
| H-bomb design, but he didn't invent the design concept that it
| embodied: Teller and Ulam did. Teller instructed Garwin to
| produce a detailed bomb design based on the Teller-Ulam
| concept.
| declan_roberts wrote:
| I love my work and I'm darn good at it, but I definitely want to
| retire. I hope to teach my grandkids (fingers crossed) how to
| program and take an active role in homeschooling them (again
| fingers crossed).
|
| Apart then that I have a very fun and rewarding hobby: growing
| heirloom apple trees and making my own cider.
|
| Nothing wrong with working, but I'll be glad when I never have a
| google calendar reminder again.
| ETH_start wrote:
| I hope the day comes when we look upon the 100th birthday the way
| we now look at a second birthday.
| OJFord wrote:
| What might the world population be?
| optimalsolver wrote:
| Less than the Solar System population.
| ETH_start wrote:
| That depends on too many factors to make any kind of educated
| guess.
| uoaei wrote:
| Why?
| ETH_start wrote:
| Because life, and being alive, are good.
| uoaei wrote:
| Hmm, that seems extremely reductionistic, and sounds like
| you do not know anyone with bad or unpleasant lives. It
| also sounds like you're probably pretty young.
| ETH_start wrote:
| Life is by definition good. No other definition of good
| has any coherence.
|
| The fact that in the vast majority of cases, people who
| are faced with life-threatening adversity, struggle in an
| effort to overcome it rather than consigning themselves
| to death, suggests this is the overwhelming perception
| held by people.
|
| Natural selection ensures that the perception that life
| is good will always be the dominant one amongst any
| species.
| uoaei wrote:
| You're defining life as a moral good. That is not part of
| its definition.
| ETH_start wrote:
| I think it implicitly is.
| samyok wrote:
| https://archive.ph/aJBCr
| futurisold wrote:
| What a champ.
| lambda wrote:
| John Goodenough, one of the inventors of the lithium ion battery,
| also kept working this long; just passed away a month ago:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Goodenough
| [deleted]
| shafiemukhre wrote:
| This is the way, I aspire for this. One of my goal in life is to
| have a long fulfilling healthy life doing the things that I love
| to do, and hopefully see the 22nd century. written human history
| has only been for 5,000 years and the progress of engineering and
| technologies has been exploding for the past 100 years. I wonder
| how it will be in the 22nd century , it must be unimaginable to
| us right now. And I hope I will live long enough and have the
| luxury of a healthy brain to comprehend the beauty of
| technologies in the 22nd century.
|
| I like the work of Blueprint by Bryan Johnson, though it's not
| replicable for most and felt a bit too much. For now, my
| lifestyle include eating clean, weightlifting, cardio, and good
| sleep. This is it or there's more to it? Appreciate any other
| resources/readings to pursue a long life
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Nobel prize winners show up to teach classes, even if they're
| 100, because they expect others to aspire to greatness. That's
| what most would call purpose.
| elforce002 wrote:
| Well, my 88 year-old Grandpa is still working. He has lots of
| medical issues but we know if he stops working, he'll die.
| eclectic29 wrote:
| How does one keep going so long with the same passion, energy and
| excitement? Is it because of working in academia? Corporate life
| with its politics has exhausted me and sucked all the passion out
| of work. My cognitive abilities are declining due to the constant
| pressure to show (fake) impact and tout my own horn to move up.
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| Every context is different. You can't measure yourself against
| someone in a totally different context. I doubt the professor
| has been fighting the same battles as you. Talking about his
| love of puzzles and games, I suspect his work is more flow
| state than yours.
|
| So you can accept your current burn rate or change to a context
| that burns you out less. Personally I'm in corporate job
| (senior eng at sp500 company) and I also don't have the same
| fights you do. I have a lot of flexibility and zone time and no
| politics.
| JSavageOne wrote:
| A tenured professor pursuing their scientific passion vs. a cog
| at a for-profit corporation who's mission is to serve
| shareholders, in an industry that had over 150k layoffs in the
| last year, where you have no freedom over your work, have to
| play politics and constantly justify your value and why they
| shouldn't fire you, you're easily replaceable, and little of
| your work is particularly meaningful or benefits society.
|
| Not really a mystery why one of these entails passion, energy,
| and excitement at age 100 while the other doesn't.
| adastra22 wrote:
| You don't need to do any of that when you're on top, either as
| an entrepreneur or head scientist with tenure.
| badpun wrote:
| By definiton, there's very few people on top. Way fewer than
| people attempting to climb there.
| Gud wrote:
| Good for him! I hope to be working until I no longer can't.
| What's really the killer is the 5 days a week 8 hour grind. My
| work gives me quite flexible working hours and days - sometimes I
| work a lot, sometimes it's quite chill. If I was stuck in an
| office with the same routine year in and out, probably I would
| hate work.
| jb1991 wrote:
| When I celebrated my 56th birthday I was greeted with similar
| fanfare which now makes me think everyone thought I was nearing
| death.
| teleforce wrote:
| According to the world's oldest practising medical doctor
| (neurologist) the secret to longevity is not to retire [1].
|
| [1] 100 Year Old Dr. Howard Tucker : "Retirement is the Enemy of
| Longevity":
|
| https://boomingencore.com/en/article/100-year-old-dr-howard-...
| zw123456 wrote:
| Hi there, old person here. Tomorrow is my 65th birthday. I had
| vowed to myself that I would completely and totally retire,
| Finally, at 65. But then, this "thing" cropped up and the day
| after tomorrow, I am pitching my 3rd startup to investors. I
| wonder, am I crazy. But I feel passion for this project. So, I am
| throwing myself into the fray again, there is no logical reason
| to do so. So, Rudy, I understand.
| teekert wrote:
| I have this theory: Humans have a spectrum for "worrying about
| things" or "things deemed important", let's call it 0 to 1.
| Things you don't worry about are 0. During normal life you
| worry about some things, and stuff surrounding work may even
| approach 1. Normal, because your family's well-being may depend
| on it. Then you retire or become unemployed and the 0 to 1
| spectrum starts to drop in scope, the spectrum starts to cover
| a much narrower reality. Soon you worry and get annoyed by your
| neighbor not taking good care of his lawn or kids skating
| through the park... I've seen it happen to people retiring, I
| was once unemployed for 10 months and I felt it happen to me
| too.
|
| I then thought: Perhaps for me the working life, life filled
| with intellectual challenges, may never loose its appeal?! I
| will just have to make sure to make work more fun by getting
| rid of the boring parts and focus on the the fun parts. Then,
| at 67, why would I stop if I got to an almost "pure fun" state?
| Of course what is fun is also determined by what you are good
| at so I have no idea what that "work" will look like.
|
| Just a thought from a 41 y/o.
| influx wrote:
| I've taken off a year and a half from work and similar to
| your theory, I have the same amount of stress in my life, I
| just apply it to non work parts of my life.
|
| I was shocked.
| teekert wrote:
| Yes, that's indeed how I felt. Idk, I do think there are
| people that don't experience this effect or perhaps less.
|
| In general I've felt best when I was making or doing
| something I felt was really worth doing. Happy clients,
| difficult work (by my own standards, but also, I like to
| think by humanity's), lots of time spend highly focused.
| throwaway98797 wrote:
| i get antsy
|
| after 6 months off i'm exploring new subjects new challenges
|
| the biggest thing is that you have to talk about _something_
|
| if you aren't working that something could be family, tv, or
| hobbies
|
| but you got to talk about something
|
| if you're world gets too small you have only simple things
| like tv 2 video games shows to talk about and for me that
| never felt enough
|
| i like a sprinkle of drama in my life
|
| i too am in my 40s
| rkhacker wrote:
| My question to self is - retire to do what?
| sn9 wrote:
| The things you didn't have time to do when you had to work
| full time.
|
| You could travel, study a field deeply, read books in their
| original language, teach or mentor, etc.
|
| You don't have anything you've always wished you could find
| more time to do properly?
| adventured wrote:
| Depending on the context of course - retire from a career to
| pursue one's passions.
|
| Retire as a software engineer, pursue business ideas. Tinker.
| Maybe build wood cabinets and chairs.
|
| Picture someone that just spent the last 30 years writing C,
| C++, Java (whatever) code, and maybe doing various lower
| level management roles. The age of AI has broken into an open
| gallup; said person is 55-65 years old, maybe now is a good
| time to have fun with their capabilities instead. So now
| they're learning Python instead of punching a 9-5 time clock,
| messing with LLMs or Stable Diffusion extensions. You get the
| idea.
|
| We have hit an inflection point the scale of the World Wide
| Web circa the mid 1990s. There's a lot to do. Vast new
| territory to explore and it's moving fast. It feels a lot
| like the mid 1990s did in terms of speed. It feels like
| "internet time" has returned. It's damn exciting again.
|
| For younger people here that are completely unfamiliar with
| the phrase "internet time." Vaguely the idea or sense of
| experience that development online circa the 1990s was moving
| abnormally fast compared to everything else (this is from
| 2001, when people still understood the original context of
| the phrase):
|
| https://www.technologyreview.com/2001/04/01/275725/the-
| myth-...
| jacquesm wrote:
| > Tomorrow is my 65th birthday.
|
| Congrats!
|
| > the day after tomorrow, I am pitching my 3rd startup to
| investors.
|
| I'm still pretty active (58) but there is no way I'm going to
| do another run, I'm happy tinkering with stuff, spending time
| with kids and working on average 3 to 4 months per year. I
| always saw money as a means to an end, just another tool in the
| toolbox. I don't need more of it so that part of the drive is
| gone and I'd _much_ rather spend a day playing piano or fixing
| something than that I 'd want to be worried about metrics,
| investors, customer acquisition, payroll and the bi-annual
| whack over the head from the fourth dimension that throws all
| your carefully laid plans into disarray.
|
| But I _do_ very much wish for you to succeed at whatever
| endeavor you 've got lined up and I'm curious to hear about it.
| Much, much good luck with your plans.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| This situation/attitude is exactly the thing that great
| people end up in. As I've mentioned previously I have known a
| lot of people that developed enough wealth over time to
| "retire."[1] And by retire I mean choose to work on what they
| wanted to work on, and not work if they didn't want to. I
| once explained as "being a consultant with infinite days of
| paid vacation." Some folks like Jacques and the GP author are
| "old" (as in > 50 yrs old, (me too)), some I know are "young"
| in that they are under 40.
|
| In very general terms I see three "types" as most common, the
| first type are what I think of as "score keepers" who equate
| bank balances with their "score" in life and a bigger score
| than their peers mean they "win" life. This is not a point of
| view that I really understand, but I generally think that is
| because in my younger years I lived in Las Vegas and knew
| other kids whose parents were professional gamblers. Their
| life was really random in terms of how much money was
| available that year/month/week/day. Money came and went based
| most on luck, and less on skill. As a result these folks
| understood money wasn't the definition of how "good" they
| were, just how lucky. That is how I translated equity
| earnings from stock options / grants. If you happened to get
| lucky then you got some wealth, if not well it didn't change
| the quality of your work or your abilities.
|
| I see this a lot in the second type of person which is they
| are happy to not have to worry about money, but they don't
| "need" to generate any more. So they follow their passions
| which can be very different. One friend of mine became a
| patent attorney because they really liked the law and how
| that system worked.
|
| The third type is the person that "fails" at retirement (I
| put it in quotes because I don't think of it as failing, just
| a different path) and they miss the technical/intellectual
| challenge and the camaraderie of being in a group working on
| tough problems. If you get to be senior enough you come to
| realize that you can get more done as a group of blended
| skills than you can as individuals. Recreating that in a non-
| company way is hard.[2] As a result people often "go back to
| work". My favorite example of this is Guido Van-Rossum, who
| "retired", got bored, and then went to work for Microsoft.
|
| Tenured professorships are excellent for this third type as
| well. There isn't an industrial equivalent (there used to be,
| tech companies would have the title of "Fellow" but the grind
| of MBAs on margin over innovation has pretty much killed
| those in most places).
|
| [1] Not a flex, I just happened to be part of a number of
| companies that were generous with stock options and grew into
| larger companies. These are not founders, they are regular
| employees whose stock options ended up being worth enough
| that they could diversify them into something they could live
| off of.
|
| [2] I proposed a member-benefit type company arrangement that
| would address this need but have so far not pushed the idea
| into existence.
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| Are: your member-benefit idea - we live in an extreme mono-
| culture of company structures and I think any innovation
| there might help. Tell us more :-)
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Basically the concept is to create a company that does
| the "house keeping" (in the USA a company health plan for
| example, managing tax requirements) and a record keeping
| system of "points" related to work product of members,
| and an annual distribution of profits proportioned
| strictly on a point basis.
|
| Because this was originally conceived for people who
| "could retire" but chose not to, employee pay would be
| $1/month plus medical coverage for the member and a
| spouse that is all paid for[1], office space, "lab" space
| if the space in the office is insufficient, and shared
| high-expense infrastructure.
|
| Revenue sharing based on points and other work products
| (such as consulting and training classes).
|
| There is also an "investor" option where for every $1M
| you put in you get $3M back. The trick though is that in
| the early stages it is unclear how quickly you would get
| your $3M. Later when rates of return are better
| understood that ratio could be reduced.
|
| [1] Given the tax laws, there is also a requirement to
| include money to cover this "income" (US considers
| anything you give an employee income) so there is also a
| cash amount to cover those taxes. From the members
| perspective, they get $12/year "take home" pay, and if
| they did nothing else could file a tax return with $0 tax
| required. (caveat existing government tax shenanigans)
| jacquesm wrote:
| > record keeping system of "points" related to work
| product of members, and an annual distribution of profits
| proportioned strictly on a point basis.
|
| This is hilarious :) It is so close. I called them
| 'stakes' but otherwise it is pretty much the exact same
| thing. I wonder how many other implementations of this
| idea there are out there.
|
| The company that is running using this idea is
| 'Infocaster', a project company in Arnhem, NL. One of the
| founders put his own spin on it with a whole pile of
| automated administration but he's - as far as I know -
| yet to farm it out beyond that one company. He also wrote
| a book about it.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > I proposed a member-benefit type company arrangement that
| would address this need
|
| Funny, I did this too (the Modular Company is actually
| named for the idea). Some people are actually running their
| company along a loose version of it and are moderately
| successful, it's not exactly the Mondragon Corporation but
| they're still alive and ticking over well after 16 years in
| business.
| rkhacker wrote:
| I sincerely think that the present corporate culture can suck
| the air out of anyone's life and force to seek contentment
| elsewhere very soon. Doing a research work and solve
| problems, where one does not have to seek approval (easier
| when you NL next to your name), on a daily basis can keep one
| engaged and energized.
| zw123456 wrote:
| I am sort of blown away by the response to my post. I feel
| like I need to respond. But the posts from so many people are
| so amazing. I have "retired" a couple of times, but I keep
| coming back because, this is fun.
|
| The thing I want to do, it has to do with a new technology
| that would revolutionize LEOS technology, at least, that's
| what I think. And, I have some models that support that. Who
| cares? Millions of people who can't afford a decent internet
| connection, or one at all. If I say more, I could spoil it.
|
| But what if we could do both. Turn a small reasonable profit
| and provide connectivity, well, everywhere. And decently.
| That's my dream. It's OK to laugh. I do too. But heck. What
| else am I supposed to do. Why not take a shot with a kooky
| idea. So here I go, fingers crossed and all that.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Godspeed, if I can help in any way definitely ping me.
| jdkoeck wrote:
| Why do you assume the poster above you is in it for the
| money?
| jacquesm wrote:
| I didn't. In fact a close reading of their comment suggests
| that they are not.
|
| Why did you assume I assumed that instead of asking: "Do
| you believe the poster above you is in it for the money?"?
|
| And given this comment of yours:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36589357 I find it
| curious that you would project that onto others.
| jdkoeck wrote:
| Your comment is entirely centered around money and how,
| since you have enough, you will not bother with startup
| stuff. You are mistaken about why people create startups,
| and I do believe you missed that this is not the reason
| the top poster is knee deep in a startup at 65, otherwise
| you would not have made the comparison, or you would have
| acknowledged the situation was different. In a way, you
| tried to one up the top poster by presenting yourself as
| someone beyond the need for money.
|
| I see you went into my comment history. The one comment
| you mention, I have to admit, is not written well. My
| point was simply that you cannot turn your hobby or
| passion into your main activity if that activity does not
| earn you enough money to make a living.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I think it is _you_ that is focused on the money. I
| merely wanted to illustrate that money is no longer a
| driving force for me, without any relation as to whether
| or not the GP was doing what they were doing was for the
| money. Since they indicated that what they were doing was
| by choice, not out of need I assume that they weren 't in
| it for the money but I'd rather let them speak for
| themselves.
|
| The reason why I said that I'm not motivated to do
| another start up and I _clearly_ indicated that for me
| making a living always was only a partial drive, the
| other one being that I like interesting tech, is that my
| health is failing me in many different ways and I don 't
| have the energy for that level of engagement any more. So
| I consider myself very lucky that I don't _have_ to do
| any of this. Though, if something really interesting
| rolls around (a few months ago that nearly happened) I
| would be sorely tempted but would probably still refuse.
| Because I know the price of running a start-up isn 't
| measured in dollars but in time and stress.
|
| Finally: you are putting a lot of words in my mouth and
| thoughts in my head and making all kinds of statements
| about me. You probably would do better if you asked
| questions instead of making all kinds of weird
| inferences.
| jdkoeck wrote:
| I'll be frank, I read your message carefully and I am
| stil pretty confident about the inferences I made.
| However, I see your point, my statements are too
| forceful. I acknowledge that I should have been more
| graceful and phrased them as questions. Thank you for the
| advice. Furthermore, I am sorry to hear about your health
| and I hope there's a way for things to get better for you
| in the future.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > I read your message carefully and I am stil pretty
| confident about the inferences I made.
|
| Aka a non-apology apology. Now that you have asked and I
| have told you you still stick to your guns? Really,
| that's just weird.
| jdkoeck wrote:
| Ok, let me be clear: I apologize for being too forceful,
| but I still think your comment is very patronizing and I
| won't apologize for that.
| vasco wrote:
| They shared their own thoughts, not an assumption about op.
| jdkoeck wrote:
| The poster above says he has enough money, so that's why
| he does not want to bother with investor, acquisitions,
| metrics, etc. The underlying assumption is that money is
| why you want to get into startups, which I think is not
| correct.
| vasco wrote:
| If I go cut trees in the forest, it'll just be for the
| money, because I like computers and sitting down.
|
| For someone that loves physical exercise and the
| outdoors, and has an appreciation for falling trees,
| it'll be their passion.
|
| I can describe a situation where I decide to not cut
| trees if I don't need the money without passing judgement
| on others that do it for love. Assuming they are
| connected was your mistake.
|
| It's possible to share something about one's life
| candidly even if it's different without thinking less of
| the other.
| jdkoeck wrote:
| EDIT : I found the message about being beyond money to be
| patronizing, but I regret that I couched my comment in a
| way that was not charitable. Hence this edit.
| vasco wrote:
| Not really, I can see why you see it that way but I
| don't. The guy shared his path in life which was similar
| but then diverged, gave reasons why, seemed genuine. Was
| an interesting anecdote to me.
| tough wrote:
| hey, not so old but feeling old to not have done much yet,
| thanks for reminding me that I can still be kicking 35 years
| from now.
|
| I'd say if you have the fire go for it fren
| bjelkeman-again wrote:
| I am 59, and this is my seventh new company, third startup with
| external funding. We just closed a EUR1M Euro grant for our
| work and are well placed for the next funding round during the
| autumn.
|
| You are not crazy, if it is something you are passionate about.
| I tend to work on things I expect to take a decade or so before
| I step off. I really don't feel that being a bit older is a
| detriment. I work smarter than I did and I get to work on
| things that really mean something for me, and maybe the world
| at large.
|
| I say, go for it and best of luck!
| computerdork wrote:
| btw, what's (roughly) the new idea you're working on? If
| you're at liberty to mention it (am just curious:)
| malux85 wrote:
| Self actualizataion is at the top of maslow's hierarchy of
| needs ... go for it and be your best self! All the best!
| fakedang wrote:
| On the opposite note, I'm planning to retire the day before my
| 30th birthday that's coming soon. Not that I'm going to be
| completely divorced from my firm, but I've delegated most of
| the day to day work. I'm planning to spend the rest of my time
| working on some startup ideas, as well as focusing time
| spending with family and friends (especially some close ones
| who have less time than me).
|
| I originally planned on getting my MBA from HBS, but due to
| some of the above circumstances, I decided to delay those
| plans. They were very understanding though.
| iamflimflam1 wrote:
| If you've still got the energy, why not? I think the most
| important thing is are you enjoying it? Does it feel
| fulfilling?
|
| There's a lot of pressure to conform to what's expected of you
| and if you can ignore that you'll probably be much happier than
| most people.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Because arguably it reduces demand for the next generation to
| do their thing. And if too many do it then it also becomes a
| necessity for more in the same age cohort to afford housing
| and transportation.
| nine_k wrote:
| "Stepping aside" makes sense if you are in a singular
| position, like the CEO of a company.
|
| Most positions are not like that. Even though tenured
| positions in a university is a finite resource, having a
| highly productive professor on such a position is
| beneficial, no matter the age. The problem here is in they
| way science is financed, not in the glut of Nobel laureates
| refusing to leave.
| eropple wrote:
| It does, however, create a pipelining problem: there's
| very little reason for someone who wants to _become_ a
| professor to stick through literal decades of adjunct
| hell to maybe get a tenure-track position when somebody
| decides they 're finally ready to let go of theirs (and
| the paycheck that comes with it, which is not large but
| certainly incentivizes staying a long time).
|
| Tenure is a great and necessary phenomenon, but it is one
| of the _best_ examples of the folks who get it needing to
| be more broad-minded than themselves.
| csomar wrote:
| This assumes the economy is a zero-sum game. It is not, or
| it shouldn't be.
| nine_k wrote:
| The problem is that it's not economy, it's academy.
| theptip wrote:
| Pretty offensive to suggest that someone should "step aside
| for the next generation".
|
| Personally I'd rather work for someone with more experience
| (all else being equal), but ultimately the best ideas and
| execution will win.
| [deleted]
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Not suggesting people go off and die, or be thrown off a
| cliff. Rather that they consider there are some downsides
| to society at large if they unnecessarily work late in
| life. FWIW, I was responding to the question "why not?
| [keep working]".
| macintux wrote:
| Given the demographic situation nearly everywhere in the
| world, there'll be no shortage of work for the young, and
| a pronounced need for the old to keep working.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Must it be that way? Can't we settle for less,
| individually and as a society? Must the numbers always go
| up, consequences be damned?
| vasco wrote:
| Now you're questioning if human nature and pursuit of
| "better" can be changed. That's like asking "can't we all
| get along" and get rid of police and armies, which
| obviously doesn't work.
| theptip wrote:
| I think your world model is a bit off here. Each tech job
| creates multiple non-tech jobs on average (1.5-2 in the
| bay area, last I checked). It's true we're coming out of
| a mini-recession in tech, but in general over the past 10
| years there have been way more job openings than workers.
|
| Someone experienced continuing to work in tech is a net
| benefit to society; they contribute way above median
| taxes and their economic activity generates jobs. It's
| not zero-sum; the more people working in tech as senior
| engineers, the richer society gets.
|
| The only case I think you could actually point to net
| downsides is that within tech, it's possibly easier for a
| more junior to get a job replacing a more senior when the
| latter retires, from reduction of competition. So from a
| selfish perspective of "I want your job" sure it makes
| your life easier if a senior engineer retires.
|
| I'll put a [citation needed] on your claims around
| downsides to society and leave it at that. Judging by the
| downvotes it seems others don't agree with you either; if
| you want to persuade people I think you need to provide
| some concrete evidence.
| pedrosorio wrote:
| This seems like a counterintuitive idea.
|
| Older people helping to make more products/services is a
| downside to society at large?
|
| I would understand if "working" was a competition for
| limited resources. But if it is, in fact, a value
| generating activity, how does it harm society at large?
|
| e.g. Having more doctors work until later, if they are
| capable, is not a net positive for our society's ability
| to provide healthcare?
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Some demand for workers scales well, virtually unlimited.
| Yet many are not. And as tech quickly takes more and more
| jobs, older workers contribute to the competition for
| shrinking demand for human labor.
|
| Now advances in tech may continue to increase demand for
| workers elsewhere, once training and workers catch up. Or
| maybe not as much as roles are lost.
| theptip wrote:
| > older workers contribute to the competition for
| shrinking demand for human labor.
|
| Posted a similar request elsewhere, but I think you need
| to substantiate this claim.
|
| Furthermore, if you're claiming that tech destroys jobs
| in the general economy, then the consistent position
| would be that young or old should stop working in tech,
| not just older people. But the research I've seen shows
| that tech jobs generate non-tech jobs on net.
| vasco wrote:
| So what if demand scales differently. Should foreigners
| go back home to leave jobs to nationals? Should women
| stay home to leave jobs for men? Unless you answer yes to
| those, why would you choose another arbitrary category
| like age to do the same?
|
| I hope you're never old with people around you that think
| the same as you think now. Either you can do the job or
| not.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| I didn't choose the category, the question was why not
| work late in life. I proposed one likely downside.
|
| As to immigration and women and others, it can be argued
| the end game of every able bodied adult working until
| death is quite dark -- even if it begins with most of
| them finding some enjoyment in it.
|
| When I'm old I hope my family encourages me to find joy
| and meaning outside employment, once the finances have
| been secured for retirement.
| cosmojg wrote:
| The available data[1] suggest that society at large
| benefits from increased productivity regardless of
| whether the individuals driving that productivity are 65
| or 25. Fortunately, we live in a positive-sum economy
| where working harder and longer not only grants you a
| bigger slice of the pie, it increases the size of the
| entire pie itself.
|
| [1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-vs-happiness
| Retric wrote:
| Be careful extrapolating macro scale effects into the
| micro scale. GDP is a function of a huge number of things
| and its correlation with positive outcomes doesn't mean
| everything that boosts GDP is a net positive. Many forms
| of economic inefficiency end up boosting GDP.
| ekianjo wrote:
| > Because arguably it reduces demand for the next
| generation to do their thing.
|
| Another "the cake is finite" dumb argument?
| leeoniya wrote:
| Budd : They say the number one killer of old people is
| retirement. People got a job to do, they tend to live a little
| longer so they can do it. I've always figured that warriors and
| their enemies share the same relationship.
|
| (Kill Bill: Vol 2)
| yMEyUyNE1 wrote:
| What is your ikigai? Ikigai is a Japanese concept referring
| to something that gives a person a sense of purpose, a reason
| for living.
|
| Said to be a reason for long life.
| incompatible wrote:
| By "retirement", people generally mean no longer working for
| money. That doesn't mean you can't find things to do.
| mc32 wrote:
| Yeah, but the popular image is the kind you see in the
| moving picture "About Schmidt"
| thret wrote:
| We stopped calling them moving pictures in 1910. They're
| motion pictures now.
| ant6n wrote:
| ...and since 1915, we've been calling them movies. [1]
|
| [1] https://pictureshowman.com/when-did-the-term-movie-
| replace-m...
| serf wrote:
| I read it as 'moving' (emotionally stirring) picture (a
| common-use colloquial for 'movie'; A film - also called a
| movie, motion picture, moving picture, picture, photoplay
| or (slang) flick)
|
| and that it is -- definitely emotionally stirring. It was
| amazing to me, having watched it many years previous,
| that it was essentially a 1:1 representation of my
| widowed father.
|
| when I watched it recently it was less funny than I had
| remembered it, much sadder. I think that's because I had
| realized that it wasn't as much of a satire/parody than I
| had thought originally.
| xapata wrote:
| The audience is rescued from the sad moments by letters
| to Ndugu. I remember a couple times being on the edge of
| tears, only to cheer up when I heard, "Dear Ndugu."
| onecommentman wrote:
| The prof sounds like a great guy in a great situation. I assume
| he has a spacious office on a beautiful campus and in full
| control of the work he is pursuing. I get the same feeling
| reading he is working at 100 as when I see a loving group of
| friends and family egging on a married couple celebrating their
| 75th wedding anniversary to get them to kiss. You just want to
| pinch their cheeks so hard...
|
| Should working to 100 be aspirational, or even thought
| desirable, for 99.9999% of the population? Of course not.
|
| Is it admirable to continue to work in a job where others (who
| you may or may not respect) determine the nature of the work
| and work environment...for one millisecond longer than you
| must? I don't think so, not beyond a personal sacrifice to be
| made if the work is of _unique critical_ importance to the
| _direct_ well-being of people and the planet. Even then, think
| really hard about it.
|
| Is it admirable to take up a slot in a fulfilling career area
| when so many young deserving candidates are knocking at the
| door? Not to me.
|
| Should you pursue your personal passions in any way that suits
| you in your golden years, when economic issues are not a
| priority? Absolutely.
|
| But who is this self-identified "old person" who is only now
| turning 65? Just a young punk I say. Take your hippity-hoppity
| music someplace else...
| DocSavage wrote:
| 65 is the new 45 :) Sounds like there's a perfectly logical
| reason to do the 3rd startup: you're passionate about it. Best
| of luck!
| WeylandYutani wrote:
| My mother recently retired. She was working since 16. Nobody does
| that anymore most enter the workforce at 25 now.
|
| Anyway she spent 40 years working as a psychiatric nurse and
| later as a therapist and got tired of the sex abuse stories and
| all the other horrors our lovely society produces to make people
| go insane so I don't blame her for retiring. Some people have
| real jobs.
| aljadooa wrote:
| [dead]
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| I've been fortunate enough to know a few older people who really
| loved their work and were excellent at it. All of them had one
| thing in common: they didn't want to retire.
|
| Meanwhile all of my peer group is obsessed with FIRE and dream of
| retiring early. All of us are also involved in pretty meaningless
| work that has no measurable impact on the world (five lines of
| code to a million line codebase is hardly world changing).
| atrettel wrote:
| I would think that the "obsession" your peer group has with
| retiring early comes more from the realization that they can
| retire early (they have the ability to if they want) more than
| anything else. Your observations of your peer group may have
| some selection bias present. Cast a wider net and you may come
| to the opposite conclusion.
|
| I agree that many people do not find much meaning in their
| work, but most people also do not make as much money as
| software engineers do. Most people cannot fathom retiring
| early. It simply is impossible. A lot of software engineers are
| going to realize that, hey, if I save up and invest money
| aggressively for roughly 10 to 15 years, I will have enough to
| live comfortably for the rest of my life without having to do
| work that I do not like. However, most professions do not make
| nearly enough money to achieve the goal of retiring early, so
| they really have no reason to discuss or even ponder early
| retirement. It's never gonna come up.
| JSavageOne wrote:
| I think it's less about ability to retire early, more about
| realization that being forced to sell one's life and freedom
| to an employer is not only miserable, but completely
| unnecessary for society to function (eg. with a UBI society
| would carry on just fine, and likely accelerate automation).
|
| The older generation didn't grow up with technology so
| perhaps it's not as obvious to them.
| varjag wrote:
| Aye, this whole concept is a zero sum game hedging on you
| earning substantially more than median. Otherwise you
| wouldn't be able to live off your saved amount as the
| services rendered by other people would price you out. The
| returns on investments would have been very modest too with
| people extracting more value for their work.
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| True, but the people I'm talking about are at the top of
| their fields and can afford to retire anytime.
|
| You find this pretty much everywhere with high accomplished
| people - they don't want to quit, even when they can afford
| to. Skilled doctors who keep working, professors who keep
| teaching, artists who never stop creating - well into their
| 70s and 80s.
| JSavageOne wrote:
| FIRE is about financial independence, aka freedom to work on
| whatever you want. It'd be nonsensical not to strive for
| financial independence.
|
| I'm not FIRE but took most of the last year to work on projects
| that I enjoy. There's absolutely no comparison to working for
| oneself vs. working for a boss for a paycheck. The former has
| me loving life and my work, the latter will have my questioning
| my career choice and the system we live in.
|
| Probably in 10 years we'll have something resembling a UBI in
| most major western countries, so finally everyone will have the
| freedom to work on what they enjoy instead of selling their
| soul for a paycheck.
| skepticATX wrote:
| Perhaps it is more about the structure of the corporate
| workplace and less about how meaningful the work is?
|
| I love writing code, I don't think I'll ever fully quit, but I
| also really want to retire early.
|
| The problem is that corporate America is riddled with politics
| and inefficiencies, and offers little to no long term security
| for all but the most senior employees.
|
| From what I've seen the people who never retire are in
| academia, medicine, own a business, or are just so accomplished
| that they effectively have corporate tenure.
| gumby wrote:
| I retired at 30 and it didn't stick. The real difference is
| that I only think about working on things I am interested in
| working on.
| gravypod wrote:
| > Meanwhile all of my peer group is obsessed with FIRE and
| dream of retiring early.
|
| I'm a SWE and I would love to FIRE one day but the goal of my
| retirement is very different from others. I want to buy some
| land with a house and a workshop, learn machining, chemistry,
| electrical engineering, etc and either contract for startups or
| start my own projects. Also, I'd like to bring some polish to
| the free software stack by rebuilding some foundational pieces
| of technology.
|
| It is very hard to have the energy to do a full day of work,
| come home, and do a full night of work. Unfortunately, the
| market is not set up in a way where creative people (who can
| transform various verticals) can get funded to do good work.
| vasco wrote:
| Almost every person I know has the same goal about learning
| all these new hobbies. What happens instead is people do what
| they are passionate about and if you never learning X all
| your life you probably won't start at 65.
| herewulf wrote:
| Depends on what X is. Ski jumping? Probably not. Workshop
| stuff (CNC, 3D printing, etc) probably yes.
| badpun wrote:
| If a person is doing at least a little bit of that in the
| small amounts of spare time they already have, then yes.
| Otherwise, I don't think so.
| vasco wrote:
| It doesn't. Most people I know didn't have plans to ski
| jump when they are old because they know some physics and
| have been in the world more than 5 minutes.
| egwor wrote:
| I've been asking myself why I'm not already doing this now.
| Why not spend a bit of time on reading about it now?
| ngai_aku wrote:
| Probably because most of us have feelings similar to what
| was expressed by the parent:
|
| > It is very hard to have the energy to do a full day of
| work, come home, and do a full night of work.
|
| I really enjoyed school, and I always thought I'd be the
| type to continue education via MOOCs, self-guided study,
| what have you. But it's hard to fit it in after a full day
| of work and family time!
| saiya-jin wrote:
| Same for me with learning new language (french) after
| long day at work... theoretically it should be fine and I
| know I should do it, but often the motivation is not
| there anymore at the end of the day, and you need some
| semi-constant momentum to get anywhere in these sustained
| efforts.
|
| And once you get kids, they are more effective than black
| holes with sucking out any time you could have for
| yourself. Its well spent time, don't get me wrong, most
| probably the best way to spend it for a parent, but
| personal efforts suffer correspondingly. And next day is
| not gonna be different. Same for weekends and holidays.
| All year, every year.
| Zircom wrote:
| I don't know about you but I'm mentally exhausted at the
| end of most days once I'm off work. It's relatively
| uncommon for me to even have energy to invest in my normal
| hobbies, let alone self-improvement/ learning new skills.
| computerdork wrote:
| Agree with this. Am a software engineer and musician
| (composition). Exhausting to do both.
|
| But, have also found you can switch between them if
| you're a consultant. You work on medium-term length
| projects, build up a bank, quit, then focus on your other
| interest for a few months. Need to live frugally, but it
| is possible (have been doing this cycle for years).
| herewulf wrote:
| Very interesting! Any chance you have written more
| extensively about this somewhere? I am a consultant but
| it's hard to get my clients to leave me alone for more
| than a week.
| armchairhacker wrote:
| I like some form of "work" but I like to work on my own terms.
| The more money I have up to a certain amount, the less I have
| to worry about taking a job I don't want.
|
| I'm currently in academia, so I don't make that much money but
| fortunately do make enough. And I get to work on stuff which
| isn't quite what I'd like, but close enough; and the job isn't
| very demanding and I have free time, so I can also do the kind
| of work that I want. I do want more stability though, better
| income means I can save money and academia is opaque and
| uncertain
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Most people don't contribute much to the real progress of human
| societies so it makes sense to FIRE so that they can at least
| recollect themselves and regain some passion for whatever.
|
| I for one is at my 40s but I definitely feel older than the
| 100yr old in the article. I lost all of my passions of the tech
| in the previous 2 years and just want out when I have the $$$.
| losteric wrote:
| The older folks typically also benefited from getting into
| housing when it was less scarce, riding one or more waves of
| progress, at a time where healthcare ROI was much higher.
|
| My generation faces a different economic situation. I know
| people in academia that love what they do and dreamed of living
| a life like Rudy's. In practice, they're stuck - huge debts,
| dismally low post-grad wages, stuck renting, just hoping for a
| stable position (luck over merit). K-12 teachers, lifetime
| musicians, social services, even nurses in similar positions.
|
| Is meaning worth that kind of struggle?
|
| Not for me. I want to bake as a craft in an owned place of
| business, then go home to sleep in a bedroom I own. Big Tech is
| the means to that end. Wake up, Clock in, autopilot, clock out,
| live. Within ethical reason, I will take any boring meaningless
| job if it pays well enough.
|
| Locals complain about Big Tech killing the quirky unique
| culture my city used to have... and I agree! But what was the
| alternative? Pursuing the baking craft on debt and leases,
| paycheck to paycheck, barely treading water without any
| savings? _That_ sounds like living a dream, getting sucked dry
| by parasites. There are public policies that could bring back
| the vibrancy, but no one wants density or lower property values
| (a prerequisite for housing the people that seed a vibrant
| culture)...
| lostlogin wrote:
| Your housing comment is key - the grind of paying for rent or
| a mortgage with two incomes really stifles and ability people
| have to try something.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| This is almost always due to a couple trying to settle in a
| neighbourhood or school district or home beyond their
| means, at least in the US.
|
| Even a tenured professor at Columbia, who won the Nobel
| prize and loves their work and has a wife earning a
| matching compensation, would have a pretty miserable life
| if they insisted on mortgaging a large Upper East Side
| townhouse.
|
| It's the same in Palo Alto from what I've heard.
| sieabahlpark wrote:
| I think the reality is if you can't afford to live on a
| single income the chosen area you want to live in isn't
| where you should be. If you can't get a singular salary
| which affords you to live in an area then you're selling
| yourself short.
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| As someone who gave up the academia dream for Big Tech, I can
| relate...
| lambdasquirrel wrote:
| All the folks in my peer group who followed their left-
| leaning parents mantra of doing something interesting,
| something that you love, got absolutely screwed. As much as I
| hate big tech, I cannot blame anyone for pursuing it.
| BMorearty wrote:
| I followed my left-leaning parents' advice to get paid for
| doing something I love. But luckily for me I love coding.
| adastra22 wrote:
| Same, lol. I love coding and startups. We hit the
| jackpot.
| infinite8s wrote:
| We did, didn't we? Sadly most intellectual loves aren't
| as monetarily rewarding as programming has been for the
| past three decades.
| kristopolous wrote:
| My parents are on the far right. It was only after I
| ignored their rugged individualism Ayn Rand style beliefs
| that I got anywhere in life and now I'm doing fine. That's
| probably why I consider it to be such a scam. YMMV.
| lambdasquirrel wrote:
| The opposite of something that is not working is not
| necessarily something that is working.
| kristopolous wrote:
| My point was more that following your dreams will get you
| to about the same place as gumption, hard work and
| keeping your head down.
|
| Instead you need to understand power dynamics, social
| arrangements, how to negotiate, things like that.
|
| For instance, your success as an artist in say the 1960s
| could come much easier if you spent your time becoming
| close friends with Peggy Guggenheim instead of working on
| your brush stroke.
|
| Next time you see a stupid startup get funded, go
| research who the founders are and invariably you'll find
| like, their parents are hedge fund managers.
|
| Now you could call me a cynic, complain it's unfair, or
| you could go out and meet some hedge fund managers with
| your time (this option works the best!)
| kenjackson wrote:
| How did they get screwed? I feel like I kind of got screwed
| going into SW. I have friends who make 1/3 the money as
| athletic trainers, but just seem to love their life so much
| more. Maybe when we're 60 things will change, but seems
| like a bad tradeoff.
| vl wrote:
| There are happier because their work is finite. They do
| athletic sessions, they are done, their time then is
| their own. As software dev/lead/manager/pm you are never
| done, there is always next thing to do.
|
| This why some devs become SREs - your shift is over, you
| are done.
| Frog0fWar wrote:
| I'm not sure about SREs - it probably depends on company,
| but where I work, if you aren't oncall, you develop
| projects similarly to a SWE - so you can still think
| about work after you clock out.
| nvarsj wrote:
| I think you got it flipped. It's a lot easier to switch
| off as an SWE compared to SRE. I moved to SWE precisely
| for that reason.
| astrange wrote:
| One reason devs work a lot more is that getting paid more
| causes you to work more, not less, because you miss out
| more by not working.
|
| (This is why two income families are a sign of high wages
| more than poverty. And that both of you have relatively
| equal earning power of course.)
| kenjackson wrote:
| That probably plays a factor.
| [deleted]
| darkwater wrote:
| Agree to this minus the SRE part which cannot be more
| wrong.
| biohax2015 wrote:
| As an SRE I find this comical. There are always
| improvements to make in infra, patches to apply,
| compliance crap to deal with. Not to mention on-call.
| [deleted]
| Tade0 wrote:
| Sounds more like a generational thing than anything
| connected with political affiliation.
|
| In my corner of the world it's the economically
| conservative crowd that advocates this - assuming money
| will follow because that's what happened to some of them in
| the 90s, when we were fresh out of communism.
| bombolo wrote:
| being a hipster and being a socialist aren't the same.
| rxhernandez wrote:
| Kinda hard to be either without being left-leaning
| flangola7 wrote:
| Chud brohipsters are a very real thing.
| astrange wrote:
| In a former communist country being a communist can be
| the conservative position.
|
| And in China being a communist is actually a kind of
| capitalist. Thanks Deng.
| pixelatedindex wrote:
| Anecdotally speaking, I don't ever see myself being
| right-leaning because really, what do I have to conserve
| to be conservative?
|
| I don't have much wealth, I can't buy a house for the
| foreseeable future, I will be done paying off literally
| all my debt including student loan next year, I have a
| wife and no kids. So yeah... I just want to do what I
| like and screw making another person or company richer,
| they'll be fine.
| ekianjo wrote:
| Maybe but there is a very big overlap
| bombolo wrote:
| one is about feeling morally superior to others, one is
| about helping others.
| foobiekr wrote:
| Not everything is about housing, in particular someone
| choosing to work to 100+ doesn't really have anything to do
| with housing.
| whymauri wrote:
| The main reason an academic career seemed infeasible to was
| because I would never comfortably afford the housing. I
| went broke my first summer living alone and decided to
| become a software engineer.
| pixelatedindex wrote:
| No, but it helps to own a house if you wish to work to 100+
| Aeolun wrote:
| Would work just as well when renting.
| pixelatedindex wrote:
| Color me skeptical. By the time you're retired, you
| probably want your own place with minimal expense.
| Renting means you're at the mercy of landlords and at
| that age I don't think you'd be happy with that kind of
| arrangement.
| Aperocky wrote:
| > meaningless work that has no measurable impact on the world
|
| If it generated a stable income for you and the company then it
| has a measurable impact on the world.
|
| The world consists of people, people with higher income
| contribute to higher prosperity and in turn more resources for
| what looks like world impact works.
| lisper wrote:
| It's not work that sucks. It's _having_ to work that sucks.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Bingo. People pay thousands of dollars for the mere option of
| buying or selling 100 shares of a stock a few years in the
| future at roughly the price it is now.
|
| I imagine there would be folks willing to pay a lot more for
| their future options, if such an options market existed.
| [deleted]
| r3trohack3r wrote:
| Retirement !== never working.
|
| Personally, I'm pursuing FIRE for the freedom to choose my work
| regardless of how much (or even if) it pays. Decoupling my work
| from market incentives.
|
| I don't consider retirement to be sitting around doing nothing.
| It's waking up and choosing my own path. It's freedom.
| rufus_foreman wrote:
| I think having choices is better than not having choices.
| TheAceOfHearts wrote:
| Is it such a bad thing to dream of a life which values things
| outside of a workplace? To spend time with friends and family.
| The older generations cling to positions of power and refuse to
| make room for the newer generations, so it is upon them to find
| meaning and purpose through other avenues.
|
| Retiring seems important for allowing younger generations to
| take their place. But if all you have is your work and you've
| lived for nothing more then I guess it makes sense to cling
| onto it until the end.
| spaceman_2020 wrote:
| Its not a value judgement on my peer group for wanting out of
| the workplace.
|
| Its more of a value judgement on the meaningless of so much
| of modern work.
|
| All the people I mentioned above are involved in work that's
| probably more gratifying than making giant corporations
| richer. One is a playwright, one is a professor, one is a top
| pulmonologist in the country.
|
| I don't know what their day to day entails, but I can't
| imagine it being as mind numbing as what I do.
| JamesAdir wrote:
| This. My friends' father is approaching 92. He worked in
| his auto repair shop until the age of 89. He was a pillar
| of the community, known everyone and their cars, and had
| generations of customer coming with cars to get them
| serviced.
|
| I don't think he became a rich man from this. He had a
| house, raised his family, and that's all. He just enjoyed
| fixing cars.
| Given_47 wrote:
| Yea I've been thinking about this a lot recently. I think
| us fixating so much on monetary richness can b harmful to
| society and too little is made of general "wealth"
| (drawing some inspiration from pg's _how to make wealth_
| ).
|
| There's a lot of folks that make more than ur buddy's
| dad, but I'm sure a lot of them are miserable in their
| jobs. In standard jobs u spend the majority of ur non
| sleeping hours in ur job. Are you rlly more "rich" if u
| can splurge on a few things on occasion but everything
| else is a chore compared to someone with an adequate
| amount to get by but enjoys the work?
|
| Idk I find framing it this way and thinking about the
| dichotomy between short bursts of gratification and more
| subdued but consistent well being is interesting
| RangerScience wrote:
| There's a big difference between having a purpose in your
| life, something you love doing, that happens to be done at a
| work place; and being an employee.
|
| IMHO it is absolutely a good thing to dream of a life which
| values things outside of employment.
|
| We just happen to use the same word - "work" - for both kinds
| of situations.
| RangerScience wrote:
| Related - My friend group is a bunch of (predictably)
| nerds, and describing the times I want to keep working on
| an interesting tech problem for my employer as "wizarding"
| has been fairly successful. It's specifically a D&D
| reference, since what I'm usually doing is figuring out a
| new pattern ("spell") to add to my repertoire ("spellbook")
| that I can then use in many other situations.
|
| It's... difficult, to convey to people what it's like
| having a job you like doing, working for people that treat
| you with respect, when they've pretty much only ever had
| jobs they didn't like and working for people that treated
| them poorly.
| Given_47 wrote:
| Yea it's pretty disheartening that these r common
| experiences. Admittedly, I don't kno a ton about UBI but
| I'd imagine the idea of giving people more security so
| they can pursue their interests in careers and not have
| to suffer thru a daily grind solely for a paycheck is a
| tenet of it
| RangerScience wrote:
| 100% yes. I usually think of / describe that aspect of
| UBI (theoretically) as "the job all other jobs have to
| compete with."
|
| Like - there's a floor on how shitty a job can be, if
| _no_ job is a valid alternative.
| astrange wrote:
| That isn't how welfare works. You're actually presenting
| the "welfare queen" argument even if you're saying it's
| good, but it was bad because it wasn't true.
|
| Welfare is good because people like being employed and
| supporting them gives them more time and resources to
| find a better job. It increases employment because of
| this. (this is search/matching theory.)
|
| Conversely, the kind of non-working people who are
| poorest and most need support are children and the
| elderly, not early retirees.
| uoaei wrote:
| Do you think that full employment is necessary in today's
| society? Note I did not use the word economy. I wonder if
| people who have "welfare queen" adjacent perspectives
| believe that people would not be happy in a situation
| where we have a smaller economy and a society where the
| average person isn't forced to compromise their values or
| submit themselves to abuse just to afford rent and food.
| astrange wrote:
| I think it's the only choice because entropy exists.
| "Everyone should be retired" doesn't work when you need
| sewage workers, or even sewage robot maintenance workers.
|
| That said, you don't have to work 120 hours a week just
| because you're employed, and hours worked has also been
| trending down over time.
|
| > the average person isn't forced to compromise their
| values or submit themselves to abuse just to afford rent
| and food.
|
| This is what happens without full employment; full
| employment means you don't have to do this because it's
| hard to hire new people (they're all already employed) so
| it's easy to change jobs.
| uoaei wrote:
| Just because you'd be uncomfortable working on sewers
| when you could be sitting on your couch watching TV
| doesn't mean we will run out of sewer workers.
|
| Full employment comes with a whole host of other problems
| for the kind of economy we inhabit today -- a sure enough
| sign that things aren't working under the current
| paradigm. We need a change if something like 'full
| employment' is expected to be a positive thing.
| Given_47 wrote:
| I like that framing, thanks. And thinking about that
| vision, I think people all too often conflate being a cog
| in a corporate machine with being "a contributing member
| of society." Not discrediting the notion of everyone
| pulling their weight in a community, but the frequency
| that I encounter that take in the mainstream always irks
| me
| themitigating wrote:
| If someone talks about how they love to work and don't want
| to retire it's not a judgement on any other choices.
| moonchrome wrote:
| > Is it such a bad thing to dream of a life which values
| things outside of a workplace? To spend time with friends and
| family.
|
| Friends and family are great reprieve between working hours
| and obligations. I wouldn't want that to be the only thing
| going on. Stay at home moms and retired people around me are
| not the image of fulfilment.
|
| The few retired people I've met that were happy and engaging
| are the kind that didn't stop working past retirement.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| It doesn't _have_ to be work, but instead of word hobby I
| would use word passion. For me its various sports and
| activities mostly in the mountains and backpacking around
| the world. This keeps me sane and cca happy.
|
| My father worked an extra year so he could buy his lifelong
| dream - Harley Davidson. Few years later, he is still very
| much into it, found new friends and community he enjoys
| being part of, going out on various adventures.
|
| Hobby for me is something I like doing sometimes. Passion
| is something that defines at least part of me, think about
| it a lot in my free time, train for it etc. If you have
| proper passion(s), retirement means just more time for
| them. Like say rock climbing.
|
| The idea of having free time to finally travel around the
| world in slow pace, or climb rock whenever I want sounds
| like paradise.
| decremental wrote:
| [dead]
| WalterBright wrote:
| Gardening is a living death. So is traveling around looking at
| things.
| ikrenji wrote:
| ?
| WalterBright wrote:
| People say they want to travel and garden when they retire.
| That's not for me.
| WalterBright wrote:
| And that's as it should be.
| herewulf wrote:
| > "The main thing is finding something that you enjoy doing, that
| preferably doesn't harm others, and that tests whatever aptitude
| one has, that tests one's ingenuity," he said. "It's almost like
| a kind of a game. You against nature."
|
| You, sir, are winning that game. See you "at work" because in 59
| years I also want to be productive still!
| robotnikman wrote:
| I feel like one of the secrets to living longer is to have a
| reason to get up every day, a purpose to fulfill in life. And
| this guy certainly has one.
| valgor wrote:
| Look up Blue Zone groups. Researchers study groups of people
| that live the longest and how they live. Of course diet and
| exercise is a big component, but a reason to live is another.
| There are other interesting factors as well.
| paulcole wrote:
| I mean it's not that interesting to write about the 100 year
| olds who have no purpose and just putter around. Might be
| skewing your conclusions a bit.
| lordnacho wrote:
| Someone mentioned a paper a while ago examining whether
| retirement was actually what caused death, rather than
| retirement being caused by ill health. Perhaps someone here
| can link it.
| sigmoid10 wrote:
| This study [1] seems to suggest that there are quite a few
| negative effects that can be associated with retirement
| itself rather than age alone. But the effects are rather
| small and it also seems like they can be offset by
| maintaining a social life and physical exercise after
| retirement. So yeah, being alone on the couch all day is
| bad for physical and mental health. But that holds for any
| age, retirement only exacerbates it for some people.
|
| [1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/27751397
| lionsdan wrote:
| Maybe "The Mortality Effects of Retirement" ?
| https://www.nber.org/bah/2018no1/mortality-effects-
| retiremen...
|
| There are a couple other versions of this full paper
|
| https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w24127/w24
| 1...
|
| https://crr.bc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/wp_2016-7.pdf
| MagicMoonlight wrote:
| Not necessarily. I have grandparents who just sat there for 40
| years after retirement not doing anything.
| yMEyUyNE1 wrote:
| The Japanese have a word for it, Ikigai.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| one thing i remember pretty vividly about my grandfather is
| that he started to age in front of my eyes after he retired.
| It's ironic that people are almost encouraged to wind down at a
| point when they need an active life the most to fend off
| senescence.
| anyfactor wrote:
| > a purpose to fulfill in life
|
| I add like to sense of stability there as well. If there is the
| nature unpredictability involved, waking up everyday is quite a
| challenge. Unless you consider unpredictability into your
| framework, getting paid to do things you love doing can be
| quite difficult. The person has achieved the highest
| accomplishment in his field, he has tenure and thus from the
| outside perspective he is living a much more stable and routine
| life.
| mrtksn wrote:
| Wow, such a winner: Long, healthy life full of accomplishments
| within a community where he is liked and he likes them back.
|
| I wonder what people like Peter Thiel have to say about it, would
| he consider Rudy Marcus a "winner", maybe bigger one than
| himself? I recall something about Thiel looking down on the life
| choices and motivations of scientists.
| julianeon wrote:
| Realistically, Peter Thiel would praise the guy. He's talked
| before about our current level of stagnation and how the US
| needs to prioritize real advances in technology, especially in
| fundamental areas like physics. A Caltech Nobel Prize Winner
| who won his award for his contributions to the theory of
| electron transfer reactions would naturally help advance that
| agenda.
| dctoedt wrote:
| > _Peter Tail_
|
| Friendly amendment: You mean Peter _Thiel_ , presumably?
| mrtksn wrote:
| Right, Autocorrect keeps correcting it wrongly. It's the SV
| billionaire from the PayPal mafia.
| Kamq wrote:
| > I wonder what people like Peter Thiel have to say about it
|
| The people I know who look down on modern academics, tend to
| dislike a set of changes that started happening in the mid-late
| sixties and ramped up through at least the 2010s.
|
| I'm not sure that's applicable to someone who got their PhD in
| 1946.
| mrtksn wrote:
| I am a bit too lazy to go back into Thiel talks and find the
| relevant quotes, however, if I recall correctly He talks
| about Einstein and similar physicists on how they were not
| compensated correctly and not being billionaires despite
| their huge contributions to the society and how they made
| wrong life choices.
| Kamq wrote:
| Fair enough. Einstein definitely pre-dates what I'm talking
| about, so if he's included, then this guy definitely is.
| mrtksn wrote:
| To be fair, I recall him criticising the capitalist
| system too for not rewarding the scientists properly. He
| is not a simple person.
| Kamq wrote:
| > He is not a simple person.
|
| I'm gonna be honest here. I don't think anyone is.
| mrtksn wrote:
| Sure, just emphasising on it because the initial comment
| looks like a bit of mischaracterisation.
| bagacrap wrote:
| As if the only possible reward is money?
| JumpinJack_Cash wrote:
| > > I wonder what people like Peter Thiel have to say about it
|
| Who gives a fuck? He's just a guy, much like this guy is just a
| guy.
|
| Don't waste space and give me your take as opposed to
| mentioning other people, because they are not here and they
| cannot debate, while you are and can.
| mrtksn wrote:
| Sure, here is for you can fill for your demands:
| https://form.jotform.com/232027549131046
| selimthegrim wrote:
| I salute Rudy, but I'm not sure how well his graduate students
| have made out in the last few years.
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