[HN Gopher] Botulinum toxin: Bioweapon and magic drug (2010)
___________________________________________________________________
Botulinum toxin: Bioweapon and magic drug (2010)
Author : redbell
Score : 46 points
Date : 2023-07-22 13:46 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
| sambeau wrote:
| And yet people continue to inject it into their faces, because
| wrinkles.
|
| -\\_(tsu)_/-
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| bluepod4 wrote:
| Digitalis/Digoxin/Lanoxin is a life-saving drug that is derived
| from the toxic Foxglove plant and can still poison someone in
| sufficient quantities according to Agatha Christie and the
| internet. (I guess lots of drugs can harm you in sufficient
| quantities lol.)
| swayvil wrote:
| Hey I grow foxglove in my garden. Lovely.
|
| Here's another one : CASTOR OIL PLANT. Pretty common. Has
| these beans.
|
| Take some of the beans. Soak em in water for a couple days
| and you have a fabulous poison : ricin.
|
| Excruciating tummy ache and bloody diarrhea. Then you die.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricinus
| bluepod4 wrote:
| I wasn't aware of the castor oil plant's beans.
|
| My good old friend Calabar Bean came to visit last week
| though (Cain's Jawbone reference).
| mdip wrote:
| I saw the title and that was the _first_ thing I thought of.
|
| I was _sincerely_ hoping that "magic drug" wasn't referring to
| its use in cosmetic surgery[0].
|
| As I'm not a member of anything medical-field related I was
| unaware that it had been used to treat "blepharospasm"[1].
| Having gone through that _to the point of actually seeking
| treatment_ , I'm disappointed my doctor wasn't aware of that
| option. At the point -- two days with no sleep -- I would have
| raided the drawers and given _myself_ a shot.
|
| But, really, Botox is what most people think of when thinking
| "magic drug." I'm not sure that's the word I'd use.
|
| I'm a guy in my 40s with a pretty typical subset of people
| categorized as "I used to know them in High School". Literally
| in the period of 4 years about 25% of the women in my friends
| list were _very clearly talked into getting Botox_. One woman
| must be involved in some multi-level marketing scam related to
| Botox because she 's frequently posting pictures of her face
| "post treatment" (and, I'm sorry, it's grizzly)
|
| I _have_ to believe that _some_ people have good results. But,
| no joke, I can pick out at least 10 women who have what I call
| "Botox Face". You notice it first in the lips -- "permanent
| semi-duck-face". Then they start talking -- large portions of
| their face don't move as expected. I had a co-worker who had it
| done, missed a few days of work, and when she returned I had
| assumed she suffered a _stroke_ (thank God I didn 't say
| anything). I had known she had Botox before (she had the lips
| already) so this was a second course of treatment.
|
| Despite how this sounds, this wasn't intended as an attack on
| folks who use Botox. I'm truly curious -- it seems like a _lot_
| of people have this done and the results are _much_ worse than
| before for _many_ of them. How many is anyone 's guess ... in
| theory, it would be impossible to tell the difference between
| good Botox and "natural" but I can't think of another form of
| cosmetic surgery that has worse results. But considering _how
| many_ people have bad results, why do _so many people continue
| to get it done_ (including folks who _previously_ had bad
| results!)
|
| [0] Ok, maybe just a little, because it's an "easy target".
|
| [1] Such a fun word -- one that people know if they've ever had
| their eye twitch consistently for a month (try sleeping that
| way).
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| "Having gone through that to the point of actually seeking
| treatment, I'm disappointed my doctor wasn't aware of that
| option."
|
| This is really surprising. If you Google 'blepharospasm
| treatment' and read a few articles, it's impossible not to
| come across Botox. And this isn't even recent... About 20
| years ago, I did a project related to commercializing an
| innovative treatment of blepharospasm, and I recall
| contrasting this new treatment against the alternatives
| available at the time. Botox was one of them.
| poorselfimage wrote:
| [flagged]
| AbrahamParangi wrote:
| I think people see the pictures and it looks like it might be
| an improvement but it's the motion of expressions that really
| makes it look weird/uncanny. A human face is always moving
| and it reads very wrong to see it move wrong.
| chownie wrote:
| Misunderstanding of Botox procedure aside ("duck" lips being
| filler rather than Botox), is this just not a restatement of
| the toupee fallacy?
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| Probably. IIRC the price of Botox injections has come down
| a _lot_ in recent years, and it 's a relatively safe
| outpatient procedure, so if social media trends are
| anything to go by I'd assume quite a few people are getting
| it.
|
| Any good cosmetic work should be almost invisible to
| someone who isn't looking at a before-and-after photo. I
| recently got some work done (long story, but one of the
| best decisions I've ever made) and my doctor said he
| strives to do work that's so discreet no one will notice
| and so gratifying that you'll tell everyone anyway.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _You notice it first in the lips -- "permanent semi-duck-
| face"_
|
| This is filler. Botox doesn't plump out features. (I've never
| had botox, but I have friends who have. The difference
| between discount and top-tier Manhattan plastic surgeon
| administration is noticeable. Or, I suppose, not.)
| jnovek wrote:
| Fun fact: cosmetic Botox led directly to the discovery that
| it could be used to treat chronic migraine -- some people who
| received it for cosmetic reasons noticed that it improved
| their headache symptoms and reported this to their doctors.
| ianai wrote:
| I was in Botox for migraine in the early days. Had more
| than one conversation with someone who was clearly mistaken
| that I'd said I was taking Botox for cosmetic purposes very
| probably because they had. Made for a funny conversation,
| but not bad. And others asking whether it's like cosmetic
| Botox.
|
| I'll be forever grateful to the people who noted it helped
| their headaches!! I don't want to imagine how different my
| life would be without it.
| Glench wrote:
| Huh, didn't realize botox could be an effective bioweapon.
|
| I get regular botox injections to help with my headaches. It
| works really really well. Takes a couple weeks to kick in then
| lasts for a couple months before dissipating naturally.
| hwillis wrote:
| The Botox-like family are the most potent _substances_ by
| weight, whether they 're used for medication or poison. It's
| kind of crazy when you consider it. It takes thousands of botox
| doses to kill you. That's not dissimilar from most drugs- take
| a thousand advil and you'll certainly die.
|
| One unit dose of botox is 50 _picograms_. A lethal
| intramuscular dose is ~160 nanograms. A lethal inhaled dose is
| ~1 microgram. That 's _crazy_. Inject any other chemical into
| the heart, brain, wherever you want- you will not be able to
| kill someone with a smaller dose of anything.
|
| The next most potent drugs (eg LSD, actually) create
| perceptible effects at _fifty times the lethal dosage of
| botox_. LSD is noticeable at <25 micrograms. Ricin is lethal
| at 1.6 milligrams. Fentanyl is lethal at 2 milligrams and dosed
| at 50 micrograms.
|
| Even covid the vaccines have 30+ micrograms of RNA that _makes_
| the larger amount of protein that trains your immune system. 50
| picograms is only ~50,000 individual virus, about _half_ of
| what is released by the infection of a _single cell_.
|
| Botox is within spitting distance of the lethality of a
| _nuclear fission reaction_. 160 nanograms of U-235 releases ~16
| kJ, a bit under the energy in two AA batteries or ten 5.56
| rifle shots. That 's more than enough energy to cauterize a
| critical cardiac artery, or pop your skull... but it's less
| than an M80.
|
| Realistically (lol) if you pulled 160 nanograms of material
| from the center of our sun (or probably any star short of a
| neutron star), it's going to stop fusing immediately since
| it'll be too busy exploding. I've got no idea what the math on
| that is, but I'd be pretty surprised if it beat out botox for
| lethality. Which is crazy.
| loa_in_ wrote:
| What muscles does your treatment target? It's pretty surprising
| to me that it helps with headaches. I'm very curious, and very
| interested in getting rid of headaches of my own.
| Glench wrote:
| It varies per person, but for me, surprisingly, muscles in
| the occiput, temples, and around the trapezius. It was
| amazing for me to realize that tension in my shoulders, back,
| and neck could contribute to headaches, but it really is all
| interconnected.
| bluepod4 wrote:
| Did you have other options for relieving that tension? Or
| was Botox the most effective?
| jnovek wrote:
| Botox for migraine absolutely changed my life. I went from almost
| continuous daily migraines to 2 or 3 4-hour migraines per week.
|
| Each treatment is progressively more effective, this change
| happened for me over the period of a year.
|
| It got me to a point where I could show up at the gym and,
| between those two things, I've been back to work full-time again.
| IndigoIncognito wrote:
| I used to get debilitating monthly headaches, they faded and
| stop happening over a few years with no change in diet or
| lifestyle. The brain is very strange
| gehwartzen wrote:
| I've been thinking about doing this for a while. I grind and
| clench my teeth quite a bit at night. How often did you have to
| get it done? Did your insurance cover it or is this something
| you can use HSA money for? What's your cost per treatment?
|
| Also does it in any way effect your chewing strength or ability
| to make the full range of facial expressions?
|
| Many Thanks!
| jnovek wrote:
| Insurance covers it, but I had to try (I think) four other
| treatment modalities and show that they weren't sufficient
| first.
|
| My neurologist is really tuned into the insurance process
| because she's seen Botox help so many people and we were able
| to eliminate four modalities in about a year.
|
| If you aren't lucky enough to have a doctor willing to play
| the insurance game, you might have to do your own legwork
| with insurance but, at least in my experience, it's worth it.
|
| Edit: forgot to mention -- I'm lucky enough not to deal with
| bruxism so I don't get injections low enough in my face to
| know if it affects jaw strength. Mine are mainly in my scalp,
| shoulders and forehead. It does reduce the expressiveness of
| my forehead a little bit, but I consider it a fair trade
| considering the alternative.
| ianai wrote:
| I have the impression from my neurologist that insurance
| companies are now steering patients towards the
| prophylactic cgrp blockers like Ajovy. It's got to be much
| cheaper to give a patient a self injectable than pay a
| neurologist for dozens of injections. Personally I'd much
| rather not risk the headaches coming back to make a change.
| bluepod4 wrote:
| Does your neurologist have any idea what's causing the
| migraines?
| ianai wrote:
| Some find where to inject with a radio signal and electric
| probes. It can hear the firing of muscles. If you're relaxed
| and it's still firing that's where to inject.
|
| Migraines are caused by many things. But having screwed up
| trapezious muscles probably contributes to many.
| zer8k wrote:
| I don't normally get migraines but I'd like to second that.
| When I do get a debilitating migraine it is always
| originating from my trap.
| [deleted]
| Xenoamorphous wrote:
| I think it was in a Michael Crichton book that I read that
| something like a couple of pounds of this toxin would be enough
| to kill all mankind and that stuck with me. No idea if it's
| accurate though.
|
| Also I guess in terms of toxins a couple of pounds is _a lot_.
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| I think it has the lowest known LD50. The amount they must
| dilute it by would probably make homeopaths blush.
| 1-6 wrote:
| Botox may also be a helpful tool against seizures:
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28475998/#:~:text=After%20bo....
| tristor wrote:
| I have severe bruxism and Botox treatments of my masseter muscle
| has made a huge difference. It's something I was very reluctant
| about initially but I'm glad I ultimately tried it.
| myself248 wrote:
| Seems like a good thread to ask (I brought this up a few weeks
| ago too): Why not use little bits of botox to prevent wisdom
| teeth from growing in the first place? It'd be a heck of a lot
| less invasive than removing them later.
| folli wrote:
| I don't understand: why would botox prevent wisdom teeth from
| growing? I fail to see the connection.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| How common is it to need wisdom teeth removed these days? Eg
| mine came up slowly but having them out wasn't even something I
| discussed with my dentist
| agurk wrote:
| I would hazard a guess that you and GP live in different
| countries. In Europe it is generally rare to remove wisdom
| teeth after the mid 20s, as if they haven't caused acute
| problems while erupting then they probably won't.
|
| In the US it is a routine procedure to remove wisdom teeth
| that would be considered healthy and non-problematic
| elsewhere, even in older adults.
|
| Source: my mother is dentist, and I've known multiple people
| move to the US and suddenly as a middle aged adult need their
| wisdom teeth removed.
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| Dentists have been telling me to remove my wisdom teeth for
| about 15 ~ 20 years so far and I keep not seeing a reason
| to
| User23 wrote:
| The best reason is that Beechcraft Bonanza your dentist
| wants isn't going to pay for itself.
|
| For some reason Americans are more enthusiastic about
| unnecessary medical interventions. The pediatric ear tube
| surgery is another example.
| verall wrote:
| If you're going to a normal dentist in USA then they
| don't even do wisdom teeth, that's done by an oral
| surgeon.
| MattRix wrote:
| Are there no referral fees for such things? I always
| assumed that there must be.
| proto_lambda wrote:
| That's an interesting parallel to circumcision, which is
| also an unnecessary routine procedure in the US, but
| generally only done for acute medial reasons in Europe
| (ignoring Muslims who do it for religious reasons
| presumably in both).
| thangngoc89 wrote:
| Wisdom teeth started growing at the age of 14-15. Are you
| willing to inject botox to your child?
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Are you willing to inject botox to your child?_
|
| You're framing this as if it's a mortal sin to administer
| medicine to children. Botox is well studied. If there is
| medical benefit, it would be fine.
| nilespotter wrote:
| Actually, he just asked a question.
| mdip wrote:
| That's a pretty fantastic idea!
|
| Of course, I'm far from an expert in anything related to
| medicine and I'm sure there's some reason this is
| dangerous/wouldn't work but I'd love to know why...
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-07-22 23:01 UTC)