[HN Gopher] Beyond introvert vs. extrovert
___________________________________________________________________
Beyond introvert vs. extrovert
Author : vipshek
Score : 127 points
Date : 2023-07-19 16:26 UTC (6 hours ago)
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(TXT) w3m dump (www.vipshek.com)
| msoad wrote:
| I wonder if it's even worth trying to define a person's
| personality? I've been following this research for a while now.
| Almost all the studies I've seen have substantial flaws in their
| scientific methodology, such as small sample sizes and selection
| bias, among other issues. Don't even get me started on the
| replication crisis in this field.
|
| Regarding theories like Jung's introversion and extraversion or
| the subsequent personality models like the MBTI and the Big Five,
| while they have been widely used and studied, there's ongoing
| debate about their reliability and validity. There's substantial
| evidence for the general reliability of the Big Five, but it,
| too, has faced criticism.
| analog31 wrote:
| Imagine a relationship in which one person can read the other's
| mind. This is the power of gods: They know our thoughts, but we
| don't know theirs. The only rational conclusion is total
| submission. The offer of such a power, even to a severely
| limited extent, is appealing enough for people to part ways
| with their money and natural skepticism.
|
| Can it be beneficial? A list of categories that seems
| authoritative and scientific but is open to interpretation can
| give some people a sense of comfort that they belong in their
| "place" within the organization, that there are other people
| facing similar experiences, or that they are not personally at
| fault. It can give a beginning manager the confidence to
| interact with colleagues and subordinates by means of a
| formula.
|
| Can it be harmful? Sure, it opens people to manipulation and
| bias, or persuades them to give up their agency.
| dosman33 wrote:
| I got a sigh of relief when I finally discovered that Myers-
| Briggs is partly broken. It's designed to not offend anyone by
| avoiding measuring neuroticism so it's "work-safe". I had been
| struggling to understand how people were able to understand
| personality defects of out of the Myers-Briggs system and then
| eventually it became clear that it doesn't do this, it avoids
| measuring neuroticism, and worse than that it's on shaky ground
| because it does a poor job of typing people anyway because a
| persons personality can "shift" around over time. I'm still new
| to the Big Five though, I've only skimmed the surface of it,
| but at least it measures neuroticism and should plausibly give
| you better insight.
| analog31 wrote:
| You can also game the Myers-Briggs to avoid the introvert
| classification.
| soco wrote:
| The only help I can imagine is for self discovery: it maybe
| gives one a handle on where to search for ideas, solutions,
| plans. At least that's how personality tests work for me - I
| enjoyed for instance the Sparketype.
| breakingrules wrote:
| [dead]
| rqtwteye wrote:
| I never understand why people (especially in the US) have a
| desire to split everything into two opposing sides.
| Liberal/conservative, introvert/extrovert and many others. I
| think it's pretty obvious that most (all?) people are on a
| spectrum of many dimensions and can't be categorized that easily.
| These labels can give useful hints but there is way more detail
| to look at.
| Bloating wrote:
| Theres 10 types of people, those who understand binary and
| those who don't
| NickNaraghi wrote:
| May well be a function of chronic stress. So many people are
| constantly in fight or flight (sympathetic nervous system) that
| narrows focus and decreases broad-range / spectrum-based
| thinking. Makes sense that many people would default their
| worldview to black and white.
| ravitation wrote:
| One other problem is that whenever these conversations come up
| in "extremely public spaces" (i.e. the internet), you
| inevitably have a small group that _strongly_ identifies with
| the textbook definitions of introvert /extrovert. Anecdotally
| (though this _is_ the internet), this is almost entirely self-
| identified introverts; they will swear that every social
| interaction leaves them drained and they need a certain amount
| of hours alone to recover (there is almost certainly some
| confounding variables and bias at play here). Afterwards, those
| that do not see their own lives described by these definitions
| are generally less interested than the former group in arguing
| about the definitions ' supposed validity.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| It's human nature, and not especially in the US. It eases
| cognition when thinking about things.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| In fact this happens with any form of social or psychological
| science. If you start with, anything is a spectrum, gray zone,
| nuance... you are not able to make different categories. Even
| with music, pop, rock, metal, hiphop, balade,... if you ask any
| musician they will tell their music dies not fit any category.
| My point is, making categories is just a starting point for
| certain sorts of science and literature.
| quacked wrote:
| Two sides is the most stable form of competition, it's why
| there are very few sports that have more than two teams. (Card
| games, maybe.) A few years ago I saw a great essay/blog
| post/paper/something that made this point really elegantly,
| about how conflicts seem to naturally resolve into two sides,
| but I haven't managed to find it again.
| 0xfae wrote:
| It's pretty standard game theory.
|
| If there are 3 teams, and one team starts to gain an
| advantage, the other two are highly incentivized to join
| forces to defeat the larger one.
|
| Unless you design systems to allow smaller
| teams/parties/groups to flourish, most competitions will
| devolve into two sides. In voting this would be things like
| ranked choice or approval voting, rather than single vote
| "first past the post".
| akomtu wrote:
| Isn't it the key feature of the lower rational mind to draw a
| boundary between I and not-I, true vs false? It is this type of
| mind that loves to criticize, as it needs to label every thing
| as true or false. Seeing things as a spectrum, as a
| distribution of probabilities, is a key feature of the upper
| abstract mind, and it's barely developed in us today. And most
| people are still developing the rational mind, and usually swim
| in the stormy sea of emotions.
| karaterobot wrote:
| > I never understand why people (especially in the US) have a
| desire to split everything into two opposing sides
|
| For the record, I don't think this has _anything_ to do with
| the U.S., false dichotomies are a more or less equally common
| human shorthand anywhere and anywhen that I 've visited, or
| studied at all.
|
| I've assumed it's because people don't have time or energy to
| consider all the nuances of everything all the time, or the
| space to list them out. The brain is in many ways a device for
| ignoring anything that doesn't help you get food and not get
| eaten by a lion.
| iainmerrick wrote:
| There are two types of people -- those who like to split
| everything into two categories, and those who believe
| everything exists on a continuous spectrum.
| watwut wrote:
| But, US culture is saturated by them and Americans really
| tend to create dichotomies much more then French or what have
| you.
|
| There really seems to be some dteong cultural tendency to do
| this.
| karaterobot wrote:
| Would love to see some evidence for this, but okay.
| InexSquirrel wrote:
| Agree that evidence is appropriate, but as someone that's
| not in the US (NZ), we do broadly see it that way. US
| politics is very pervasive internationally, and you guys
| definitely appear to be split way more into 'left' and
| 'right' (as one example).
|
| Compared to NZ's politics... which is more like a blob of
| parties which sit pretty close the centre, and sometimes
| parts of the blobs move more left or more right.
|
| But naturally the dichotomy comment doesn't hold true in
| all circumstances.
| Delk wrote:
| Multi-party systems generally tend to have less of a gap
| between parties. Especially if no single party is strong
| enough to hold majority power alone in a parliamentary
| system, decision-making requires collaboration between
| multiple parties.
|
| A lot of the polarisation in US politics is probably due
| to the two-party system. I don't know whether or not that
| has anything to do with people thinking in false
| dichotomies in other contexts.
| amadeuspagel wrote:
| The left-right dichotomy was developed in france.
| bregma wrote:
| It starts with "self" and "other" and goes analogically from
| there.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| The problem isn't in creating or even using these labels: it's
| in trusting their completeness.
|
| Categories are good for introduction, nothing more.
| [deleted]
| Tokkemon wrote:
| Because 3D chess is hard.
| costanzaDynasty wrote:
| Because it's lazy, and most people don't care enough about any
| issue to have nuisanced thoughts about a topic. And If they
| ever did any conversation would break down to A or B. Plus its
| easier to sell to and manipulate money from both sides.
|
| I try to have conversation about complex issues all the time
| and those conversations never advance past basic talking points
| that any person who spent time actually looking into any topic
| would not reduce down to a binary answer.
|
| Half the people I talk with think I'm super liberal and the
| other half think Im super conservative and it stems usually
| from the first interaction Ive had with people where Ive tried
| to advance a topic to beyond repeating the same lame talking
| points, but it really never gets past first base.
| InexSquirrel wrote:
| It feels in part that people like to have opinions, but also
| lack real information or insight to have a deep conversation
| about something - hence just breaking it down into basic
| blobs.
|
| That said for topics I do have some more in-depth
| understanding (and opinions on), I've started to find
| discussions around them to be... draining. People seem to
| want to argue or 'discuss' things heatedly, but that's it. It
| never leads anywhere or to any meaningful change in
| behaviours. Not that I'm trying to influence anyone, but it
| just feels like arguing for the sake of arguing. I'd rather
| just keep to myself at that point.
| RealityVoid wrote:
| People generally don't like to think deeply about things. I
| get it. It's uncomfortable and emotionally draining. It
| really requires attention and focus. So most people don't
| practice it and don't get good at it and simply don't like
| it. And they sometimes their approach might even be right.
| Since, you know... A lot of the things you think about or
| talk about don't _really_ matter.
|
| So you might as well talk about more trivial but lighter
| things.
|
| I know that I really love to deep dive into things and pick
| things apart. But my girlfriend hates it when I get like
| that, so I learned to understand her point as well.
| tekla wrote:
| It makes it incredibly easy to shut your brain down and just go
| along with what your "side" "expects of you".
|
| No thinking required. Your side is the "correct" one and so you
| have moral superiority.
| wouldbecouldbe wrote:
| Most of us are somewhere in the middle, but true extraverts are
| just wired different. They are really different.
|
| Many normal people are social when they feel good, and less so
| when they are not.
|
| But extraverts have learned to use social interactions to "fix"
| their emotional state. Or maybe they are born with it. However
| they deal with social aspects completely different.
|
| I think most of us are in the middle. Where some of us lean to
| less social, but I think part of that is emotional issues that
| haven't been dealt with. Whereas extraverts are just different.
| dosman33 wrote:
| The author tries to better understand introversion but focuses on
| slicing the pie in the wrong dimensions. There are underlying
| issues that cause people to swing between introversion and
| extroversion. When those underlying conditions change that can
| shift a person's place on the spectrum.
|
| If you are some flavor of neuro-divergent with any awareness of
| yourself then you realize that you need to moderate some of your
| own annoying behaviors to fit in better with those you are
| currently in the presence of. Doing this is draining when you are
| around "normies", even if you like these peoples company. It's
| also likely that you only moderate certain behaviors around
| certain people and again, the degree with which you have to
| moderate yourself can affect how drained you are over time
| changing the duration you can withstand others company.
|
| When you detect that you are around similar neuro-divergents a
| person can relax and just be themselves. The lack of drain on a
| person in this condition can swing an introvert into a full-on
| extrovert. Anyone who spends time at a makerspace or hackerspace
| probably understands this. It can be fun watching new people show
| up who usually are introverts and then they slowly shift their
| personality since they can safely be themselves and come out of
| their shells.
|
| Again, it's the underlying reasons driving a persons introversion
| or extroversion. When those reasons shift then the personality
| shifts as well. This is not directly correlated to crowd size,
| but it's a given that the larger the crowd the less safe it is
| for someone to be themselves if they are neuro-divergent in any
| dimension. Only people who are "naturally normal" can safely be
| themselves 100% of the time in large crowds and not be worn down
| by the experience.
| jmyeet wrote:
| I see a fundamental misunderstanding, even among so-called
| profesionals, about what introvert vs extrovert actually means. I
| am an introvert but struggled with the traditional definitions.
| This article builds on and complicates these incorrect
| foundations.
|
| Here's the simplest explanation that I have found: social
| interactions cost introverts energy. Extroverts gain energy from
| social interactions. When I heard this, it was liike a light bulb
| going off. It's not that I, as an introvert, didn't like people
| or exclusively preferred being alone. It's that too much social
| interaction is, quite literally, exhausting. That doesn't mean
| it's avoided at all cost or that social interaction can't be or
| isn't enjoyed.
|
| If you've met a true extrovert you'll know this. For such people,
| social interaction really can resemble a high. It can be
| something they crave and they can crash from.
|
| Larger groups are just more social interaction. It can be easier
| with known people (eg family gatherings) because the processing
| cost of the social interactions is less and there are fewer
| unknowns.
| hx8 wrote:
| The introvert/extrovert spectrum is an aspect of personality that
| seems to hold true across all cultures. Everywhere we've looked,
| there are some people that prefer to be by themselves more, and
| some people that prefer to be with other people more. The
| distribution of these people follow a standard bell curve. This
| is probably the single most well supported concept in the
| scientific literature on the topic of Personality Psychology. I'm
| dismayed that the author only made one reference in his blogpost
| -- a century old quote.
|
| It's absolutely crazy that this exists across cultures and
| implies that the disposition is biological in nature. The term
| has its flaws, and its pop-psychology understanding is limiting.
| I do think the concept is pointing towards something universal
| about human psychology.
| watwut wrote:
| But thatvis the thing - in that bell curve, majority of the
| people are in the middle. They are neither extroverts nor
| introverts, they are literally in between. They get tired from
| too much interaction and they are also refreshed by
| interactions.
|
| Meanwhile, people talk about it as if there were two different
| species. But, very few are on the extremes.
| indus wrote:
| Great writeup and love your articulation of ambiverts.
|
| I am an introvert--but now trained my mind to be a normal person
| and not fear people around me. I forced it earlier. If you meet
| me, you'll not find me an introvert, anymore. 10 years ago,
| people would politely ask me to talk or share.
|
| It has been years of journey achieving that change.
|
| I don't feel the introvert/extrovert quagmire anymore. However,
| if I'm in public meetings--presenting, chatting for more than a
| few hours--then I need to come back and take a hot shower--and
| fade away the people and conversations.
|
| My wife calls that shower: "Removing the theater from the head."
| coredev_ wrote:
| I am quite the same, we call this "social hangover".
| wouldbecouldbe wrote:
| I didn't know Jung came up with this concept.
|
| The power of ideas is amazing. Hardly anyone knows Jung, but
| everyone knows introvert vs extravert.
|
| The same goes for Freud, more have heard of him but still mostly
| under educated people, but everyone knows what is meant by
| subconscious, which was a concept he came up with.
|
| Even though they both had many weird, good and bad ideas. Their
| reputation as great thinkers iOS valid just by these 2
| contributions they made to human thoughts.
|
| Ages from now kids will speak of their subconscious and being an
| introvert while Jung & Freuds names will only be known to a few
| niche historians.
| kgwxd wrote:
| It doesn't seem Jung really did the world any favors with this
| concept. He introduced highly inadequate terms that are mostly
| used to pigeonhole people into a simple box that supposedly
| sums up all their behavior. Turning it into a linear scale
| doesn't make it any better.
|
| Don't like big crowds? Learn how to like big crowds. Don't know
| how to be with your own thoughts for a long time? Learn to do
| it. Don't say it can't be done, I've done it, and I've been
| told I have a learning disability. No one should lock
| themselves, or others, into a "personality" box, and all this
| nonsense should be entirely disregarded.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _This entire introvert /extrovert/ambivert thing just amounts
| to "most people like to be alone sometimes and around people some
| other times"?? What's the point?_
|
| The point is that we shouldn't be particularly concerned about
| that group, and it's the people in the extremes that might need
| special accomondations.
|
| Breaking it down too much can muddle the distinctions, as opposed
| to illuminating them.
| JumpinJack_Cash wrote:
| Could be that introverts have one or both of the following
| characteristics:
|
| 1) They don't like politics as a mean to reach one's goals. Maybe
| for moral reasons or because they consider it cheating or because
| they deem it 'not close enough to the action'.
|
| 2) Social time spent with other people is like any other
| activity, maybe introverts need or want more time to feel
| satisfied, much like some people are satisfied riding a jetski
| while others need to be able to do tricks and acrobatics in order
| to be happy about the whole experience. Maybe introverts hold out
| in order to reach a higher level of experience?
| DerekBickerton wrote:
| > Introverts, extroverts... ambiverts??
|
| I consider myself an ambivert, swinging between introvert and
| extrovert all the time. The thing is: you are going to have to
| attend social events often against your will if you're introvert-
| leaning (weddings, funerals, christenings, bar mitzvahs, etc).
|
| What I've learned over the years is the more you know how the
| world works, the less you want to be engaged in it (Big Pharma,
| Big Tech, Big Military, Big Anything). It's all so tiresome.
|
| One of the things all mature adults need to learn ASAP is how to
| retain good friendships over time. It's a whole art-form. Anyone
| that can give me a 'belly laugh' and I can retain friendship over
| more than five years is worth keeping.
| norir wrote:
| To be fair to Jung, he did not believe that anyone was a pure
| introvert or extrovert but he needed to use caricatures to
| illustrate the concepts. He also explicitly warns in
| Psychological Types not to use his ideas to create a personality
| classification system.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| To be fair to Jung, most of what he wrote is barely coherent
| garbage with zero experimental backing and an attitude towards
| intellectual honesty and scientific integrity which I would
| politely qualify as problematic. Sorry, I think it had to be
| said.
| norir wrote:
| Do you fear Jung's ideas? If they are incoherent garbage with
| no merit, shouldn't they just collapse under their own
| weight?
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| I don't fear Jung ideas. I feel obligated to point that
| they are entirely unsubstantiated because people like to
| bring them up and pretend they matter. Thankfully
| psychology has mostly moved past.
|
| I actually read _Psychology of The Unconscious_ as a young
| undergraduate and it was a very valuable experience for me.
| It mainly taught me three things:
|
| 1. Standards in social science at the beginning of the 20th
| century were very low and even theories which were seen as
| popular and serious at the time should be seen with deep
| suspicion.
|
| 2. Things which were presented to me in high schools as
| serious are actually entirely bogus and everything I had
| been taught could and should be questioned (invaluable
| realisation).
|
| 3. All fields of study are not equal. The fact that an
| academic department exists and a lot of people pursue its
| subject doesn't mean that what it does is serious,
| worthwhile and useful. A bunch of fools together can
| actually keep going for a long time (another extremely
| valuable realisation).
| analog31 wrote:
| History doesn't support this. Bad ideas can be remarkably
| persistent. Yes I fear Jung's ideas if they give rise to
| beliefs that are harmful to me, or to society. An example
| would be biased stereotypes surrounding the introvert /
| extravert dichotomy.
|
| Disclosure: I'd probably test as an extravert, but would
| advise against identifying as an introvert in a business
| setting due to the bias against introverts.
| elliottinvent wrote:
| It was recently explained to me:
|
| Introverts charge their battery in solitude and discharge it
| socialising. Extroverts the opposite.
| 0xfae wrote:
| The author talks about how he dislikes this characterization
| exactly because it's so binary and doesn't seem to be accurate
| for most people who fall into the "ambivert" center of the bell
| curve. The whole article is a beautiful breakdown of how social
| interaction is much more multi-faceted than this. You should
| read it.
| elliottinvent wrote:
| Admittedly I didn't get that [1] far, thanks for pointing it
| out. I read the first half but he lost me at conversational
| dynamics (I mainly come here for the comments).
|
| The battery analogy was a good way for me to understand my
| own experience and seemed like progress from the traditional
| definitions of introvert and extrovert.
|
| 1. "Balance not batteries"
| https://www.vipshek.com/blog/interaction#balance-not-
| batteri...
| sublinear wrote:
| I don't think the dichotomy is a bad rule of thumb to help
| understand someone, but it's certainly not their identity.
|
| I've come to find that it's down to the person's experience with
| and resulting preference for crowds and individuals. It's
| nurture, not nature.
|
| I used to be very introverted until I started living on my own as
| an adult and had shit to do and wanted things in life. I've also
| seen extroverts that mellowed out with age.
|
| There's no mystery. Raise your kids and yourself accordingly.
| kstrauser wrote:
| Despite claiming to have been one, you don't seem to understand
| what an introvert is. I'm a functional adult. I have a wife and
| kids, friends, and a good job. I can speak in public if needed,
| although I'd prefer not to. I don't have trouble meeting new
| people, talking to them, and getting to know them. I'm not shy,
| but I _am_ an introvert.
|
| Being in crowds of people I'm expected to interact with on a
| personal level drains my energy. Baseball games, concerts, and
| the like? No problem! Crowds of strangers don't bother me a
| bit. But if there's a hell, my corner of it looks like a
| cocktail party where I'm expected to mingle with everyone and
| never get a moment to myself.
|
| Being an introvert is nothing I was raised to be. My mom's one.
| My dad was a natural salesman: put him in a room with 50
| strangers, and 10 minutes later he was on a first name basis
| with them all and had plans to vacation together. They both
| raised me, and they both stressed the importance of good social
| graces. The difference is that after my dad's social butterfly
| antics, he was happy and fully of energy, while my mom was
| ready to go home and recharge for a while. I'm definitely my
| mom's kid on that one.
|
| I have stuff to do. There are things I want in life. I'm doing
| all that successfully. But when I'm done doing them, I just
| want a little time to myself to exhale and relax, OK?
| ryandrake wrote:
| Yea there are many dimensions: Friends vs. family vs.
| strangers, individuals vs. groups vs. crowds, work context
| vs. fun context vs. shopping/errands context. Probably many
| more. After COVID I think there's probably an indoor vs.
| outdoor setting dimension! Different people respond
| differently across these dimensions. I particularly have
| trouble with: strangers + crowds + fun context. I think my
| nightmare is a crowded shoulder-to-shoulder concert in a
| stadium. I'd panic before I even got through the front gate.
| On the other hand, meeting with friends and family or work
| gatherings are no problem. Everyone has their weirdness.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| For me it's kind of the opposite. I'm a big introvert. I'm
| totally happy to spend all day quietly by myself. Just my
| wife coming home for the evening is more than enough social
| interaction for me. We sometimes go out with one friend for
| supper - I'm tired after that. And I HATE family gatherings
| outside just my immediate family and I dread work events.
| But I love concerts. Being anonymous in a crowd, and not
| having to interact with anyone on anything but the most
| superficial level, is totally fine with me, and feeling
| that wave of energy from the crowd but not having to answer
| it is great.
|
| It's when I have to put the energy in to engage with people
| around me is when I'm pretty much immediately exhausted.
| TylerE wrote:
| A pro musician I know a bit once said the you never feel
| as alone as up on stage
| sublinear wrote:
| > They both raised me, and they both stressed the importance
| of good social graces.
|
| No offense intended. Parents often tell, sometimes show, but
| rarely _teach_ their kids much. Teaching isn 't easy.
|
| My original point was that so much of this is also in the
| hands of the person, not your parents or society. Nurture
| isn't all external. I had a similar relationship with my
| parents.
|
| > But if there's a hell, my corner of it looks like a
| cocktail party where I'm expected to mingle with everyone and
| never get a moment to myself.
|
| That sounds to me like a lack of motivation, not
| introversion. I feel like you just don't see what's in it for
| you. If you were in sales, you would see that as an
| opportunity. Turning on charisma and charm is a skilled and
| conscious effort to delight people in subtle ways. Internally
| it's all about you, but externally it's all about them.
| Learning that dynamic requires experience. The only part that
| comes natural is the curiosity to develop a skill. Anyone can
| find joy in what essentially becomes a game when they
| understand it.
|
| > The difference is that after my dad's social butterfly
| antics, he was happy and fully of energy
|
| Yeah because he was satisfied with his performance. It's an
| interesting high. You should try it. It's worth pointing out
| I'm saying this as a software engineer from a small and not
| so well off family and only having a few friends growing up.
| leonhard wrote:
| Any advice on how to develop such skills in charm and
| charisma?
| sublinear wrote:
| I'm not sure if this is sarcastic or not since my reply
| went a bit sideways. I just felt it would benefit others
| more to hear my perspective.
|
| Anyway, the social game is to just filter noise and find
| the signal you want.
|
| When you look at all the self help books on this, they're
| all very scholastic and merely teach techniques that sour
| once they're well known. A famous one is repeating
| someone's name back to them. I can't think of a smellier
| tactic than that.
|
| The goal of any social interaction is up to you. You
| don't have to be best friends with everyone. That's just
| a bonus when it happens. I suspect this is where the
| emotional drain occurs for a lot of people. You can't
| make people like you, but they're more likely to do so if
| you can make them think twice about disliking you.
|
| Determine what appeals to someone, adjust your style
| accordingly, funnel them towards what you really want to
| talk about, make a decision about how strong the signal
| is and whether to move on.
|
| I hope you see how this is kinda like gambling. This is
| how it can be very easy for someone to talk to 50 people
| and still be super pumped up to keep going. The upshot is
| that energy really attracts people. This energy... that's
| the charisma. You express it your own way and that's it.
| Keeping it going shouldn't be hard for anyone unless they
| had a murky goal to start with.
| prewett wrote:
| I've met people like this, and I don't think that is
| charisma.
|
| I think a better description of charisma is enjoying
| people. The people I think have the most "charisma" are
| the ones that always seem glad to see whoever it is, and
| they seem be like this for everyone. Kind of like a (pet)
| dog: they seem to think every new person is going to be
| an absolutely wonderful experience. Whereas there are
| some people I enjoy and others that I don't or am neutral
| about. I'm more like a cat: well, I might enjoy you, but
| we'll see about that.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| There are two ways to be charismatic:
|
| 1. Emulate charismatic behaviors.
|
| 2. Create intentional social space for those around you.
|
| #1 is what I would call "politeness" or "charm". There's
| a strictly traditional (conservative/Victorian, though
| I'm coming from a western perspective) way to do it, but
| every branch of counterculture has effectively created
| it's own version. I would count everything from chivalry
| to fashion here: anything that helps people make _useful_
| assumptions about you. As soon as you are having a
| _comfortable_ conversation with someone, you are ready
| for #2.
|
| #2 is more meaningful and more genuine, but it's also
| really difficult to do without starting with #1. Every
| person in every social interaction exists somewhere on a
| spectrum from anxious to confident. You can't directly
| change a person's position on the spectrum, but you _can_
| move the spectrum itself.
|
| Lately, I've been watching the sketch comedy series, I
| Think You Should Leave with Tim Robinson. Robinson is a
| master at playing with that spectrum: He squeezes it
| together, making intensely awkward cringe moments for the
| characters; then at the most unexpected moment, he
| stretches the spectrum out with impossibly intimate
| social interactions where everyone in the scene is
| suddenly loving and respectful to each other, totally
| leaving behind the awkwardness they started with.
| kstrauser wrote:
| I trust your sincerity, but our experiences couldn't be
| more different.
|
| First, my parents _taught_ me, TYVM. I 'm competent, and
| confident, in social settings. I know what's expected of me
| and how to do it. It's still exhausting, though.
|
| Honestly, the rest of your comment sounds more like you
| were always an extrovert but with social anxiety, and you
| got over it. I've never had social anxiety. Again, I can do
| all the things you're talking about, and I'm pretty good at
| them. When I've worked with salespeople in the past, I've
| been the engineer that they wanted to put in a room with
| customers, because I can make them laugh and give them warm
| fuzzy feelings about my employer.
|
| But when I'm done, my emotional batteries are completely
| empty and I have to recharge by myself or with a small
| circle of people I know very well and can relax around.
| cole-k wrote:
| Could you describe what it feels like to have your
| emotional batteries empty?
|
| I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if I were in your
| shoes trying to woo customers. I think the negative
| feelings I would have afterwards would be forms of
| anxiety: perhaps I'm worried I didn't present myself
| well, I'm thinking about a blunder I made, I have to
| recover because there was one guy giving me a hard time
| and making it difficult for me to be "on", or maybe I did
| everything right but something else upset me (I don't
| like the customers, what I'm selling, the venue...).
|
| From what I gather you would feel none of these things.
|
| Edit: Another thought: would you relate being at this
| kind of event to performing a concert? I usually am
| nervous, but eventually my instincts kick in and I can
| play. Afterwards my first thought isn't "let's do
| another," it's more like "I want some ice cream and to
| sit down." And I admit I kind of feel this way with big
| social events like the one you describe - maybe I'm
| focusing too much of a more negative feeling when I think
| about what you mean by being drained.
| kstrauser wrote:
| First, I wouldn't say I feel _none_ of those things. I 'm
| certainly aware of when I've made a misstep, but probably
| more than anyone else is.[1] I have what I think is the
| expected, rational amount of anxiety: I don't want to
| mess this up because I want to help our company close a
| deal. That's 99% of it, though. I'm not so much worried
| about making myself look bad.
|
| Second, your analogy of a concert? Spot on! Yes, that's
| exactly what it's like for me. The way I've felt after
| being on a literal stage is the same as I've felt after
| leaving a figurative one: "Whew, nailed it! I'm glad
| that's done! Now let's go play some video games for a
| while."
|
| [1] Someone asked me if I remembered every time my
| colleagues said something awkward. No, of course not.
| Well, that's how much they think about the mistakes that
| I've made. I take comfort in that.
| tetha wrote:
| I agree with this.
|
| Like, alone, one on one and small groups of 4-6 people are
| great. I have very enjoyable memories of lounging around with
| bands after a show, just hanging out, drinking something,
| shooting some shit about music and life. Our boardgame round
| is similar, 3-4 people, we have similar interests, we know
| each other. I very much value these rounds. You can focus on
| people, you can listen to them, speaking rights are
| respected. Sometimes there is also nothing to say and that's
| fine.
|
| Crowds are also no issue. Find or form your bubble, or just
| be part of the faceless crowd. Or just drift around, bump
| into people, be part of a pit or another. It's wonderful.
|
| But being forced to get to know 50 people over the next 20
| minutes just a little bit? That's terrifying and I know I
| will shut down and flee from the situation. And if I don't, I
| won't remember anyone. And hell, in a more compatible
| environment, I remember people from concerts at a festival 2
| years ago by face alone because we had fun and had a good
| time and talk without even knowing their name (and as I
| learned now, it's Pet, haha).
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| Agreed totally and Brene Brown has done great work on this
| topic - along with the whole Emotionally Focused Therapy
| movement.
|
| My MBTI would reliably give me INTJ from ages 16-37
|
| Now I reliably test as ENFP
|
| What changed was my relationship with myself, and society,
| after coming to some hard realizations about my childhood and
| decades of trauma.
|
| I've seen similar changes in others, and I watch as (mostly)
| extroverted boys have their social extroversion absolutely
| crushed by weight of social and gender expectations. I watch it
| happen with my son and his friends and it hurts. Luckily gen z
| is savvy and a lot of them are countering this.
|
| This seems to drive people to choose being alone over the risk
| and complexity of dealing with social stuff, to the point where
| people find or create habits that just reinforce alienation.
|
| If I had to guess, a good percentage of people who are
| "introverts" have had a lot of early trauma and so avoid
| engaging with people out of anxiety.
| tayo42 wrote:
| ive kind of agree with your conclusion, though trauma makes
| it sound intense. i guess im kind of quiet, reservered
| "introverted", people always tell me how they eventually come
| out of their shell or w/e and one day i will. seems like
| people are always changing. i think anxiety and stuff has
| more to do with peoples social interactions
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| It's a shame that Trauma is only thought of as something
| violent, when it is often very subtle and "peaceful."
|
| Mostly cause we think of Trauma as adult trauma from War or
| displacement, or significant physical or emotional child
| abuse - but it can be as simple as your parent persistently
| telling you you're in the way etc...
| withinboredom wrote:
| If you're a Myers Briggs person, apparently there is a
| 'secondary function' that you can 'switch to' and not drain as
| much energy (a therapist told me this once, no idea if it is
| true. I left and never returned; I am not a Myers Briggs
| person).
|
| Anyway, if true, then you just 'learn to be more comfortable in
| your secondary function' as you age.
|
| Anyway, I am most certainly an introvert. If anything, I've
| become more of an introvert as I just don't even tolerate
| small/bs talk around me. Real conversations or GTFO. I'm a
| right ole' grumpy old man.
| vidarh wrote:
| I have no problems in social settings. I can even enjoy them.
| But they _exhaust me_ , and that is the introversion.
| akhayam wrote:
| Introvert and extrovert is the most widely misunderstood thing I
| have seen at work and in personal life. This article also doesn't
| do justice to the nuance that introverts find interactions with
| other "draining" ... but it's not necessary that they suck at it.
|
| I feel this way: having led teams of hundreds of people, I know I
| can have deep, meaningful and long conversations... but I don't
| find them a source of joy.
|
| I encourage reading this recent opinion post in Washington Post
| that delves into this nuance with a unique perspective:
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/12/rebecca-m...
| vipshek wrote:
| I did briefly discuss this idea of interactions "draining
| energy" in the post here:
| https://www.vipshek.com/blog/interaction#balance-not-
| batteri....
|
| I understand that the idea of draining vs. charging works for
| some people, but I always found this concept even more
| baffling. For me, when I've been in solitude for a while, I
| feel a restless desire to go out and interact with people. When
| I'm in that lonely state, I find social interaction "charging"
| and further solitude "draining."
|
| But when I go interact with people for a long time--especially
| in a large group where I don't know people well--I feel an urge
| to retreat to solitude.
|
| So am I charged by solitude and drained by interaction, or the
| other way around? It feels like the answer is "both"... so what
| am I supposed to do with all this?
|
| One way you could think about my model is that you have four
| "batteries", each of which has an optimal "charge level." If
| you're under that level, you'll feel a desire to be in that
| state for a while. If you're over it, you'll feel an aversion
| to being in that state. And it's possible that if you're quite
| introverted, your optimal level of large-group interaction is
| close to zero.
|
| If you're somewhere in the middle like me, though, the simple
| idea that you're "drained" by one thing or the other feels off.
| hightrix wrote:
| As an anecdote, I am always drained by social interaction and
| always recharged by solitude.
|
| I can be home alone all week and still dread going out to a
| party if I'm not in the mood. I'm a very social person, but
| it is still draining. I have never felt so alone that I need
| social interaction, but I have frequently felt a strong need
| to be alone.
|
| But I'm also like the parent in that I've lead large teams,
| had greater interpersonal relationships, and have been
| hoisted to leadership positions regardless of if I was trying
| to get there or not.
|
| Finally, I imagine the reality of extrovert vs introvert is
| similar to the modern understanding of gender as a spectrum.
| I would guess there are not many people that are wholly
| introverted or extroverted.
| m463 wrote:
| I think there are a spectrum of social interactions.
|
| There are negative social interactions, and they frequently
| leave me drained, or seeking solitude.
|
| There are busy interactions where lots of people require my
| time and attention even though I have other things to do -
| they can also leave me drained.
|
| There are also positive interactions, with friends or maybe
| places where people are gathered with a common interest
| that leave me buoyant and full of energy and enthusiasm.
|
| Even online interactions might count as interactions, and
| fill my day with various effects on my energy.
|
| Pet interactions are generally pretty positive. I often
| wonder if some people use pets as proxies for human
| interaction (may be healthy or unhealthy)
| yarekt wrote:
| Yea I think you're getting close. I enjoy social
| interactions, but even the most enjoyable ones drain me,
| even though once I recharge, I end up seeking them out
| despite. Sometimes the negative emphasis of the word
| "drain" makes it tricky to understand
| kekebo wrote:
| The most useful definition I've found personally is basing it
| on which of the modes provides rather than costs energy
| (mental/emotional/physiological)
| BeetleB wrote:
| > I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations...
| but I don't find them a source of joy.
|
| Sorry to add to the flames, but many (most?) introverts
| generally do find joy in deep, meaningful long conversations.
| It's the small talk they tend to dislike.
|
| The problem is trying to shoehorn everything into introvert vs
| extrovert. The reality is it's a vector. Small talk vs
| meaningful conversations is an axis different from enjoying
| crowds vs alone time.
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| It's also who you're interacting with that's a big input. A
| party where you know no one but have to be at VS talking to
| your best friend or kids or spouse for example.
| mklarmann wrote:
| I would even argue, that it is depending on the context (on
| how you feel) that makes you introvert or extrovert in the
| situation. Not just a vector. I found it funny doing some
| tests, but once with the mindset of being a CEO, and in the
| other situation on the dancefloor, etc.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| AFAICT whether you find a conversation a source of joy is
| relatively orthogonal to being an introvert. It's whether
| it's draining or not. A conversation can be both a source of
| joy and draining.
| a_and wrote:
| To further reaffirm your division between depth of
| conversation and intro- and extroversion, I enjoy small talk
| and deep conversation and I find both a source of joy.
|
| Both, however, do drain me.
| pydry wrote:
| >introverts find interactions with other "draining"
|
| I'm pretty sure this is bullshit.
|
| Level of drain = lack of trust in that person X overall level
| of anxiety
|
| If you're highly anxious and socializing with people you dont
| trust (strangers, acquaintances) then the experience will be
| stressful and draining.
|
| Ive met many self declared introverts who have no problem
| socializing for long periods in small groups with people they
| trust absolutely.
|
| Ditto self declared extroverts who are "socially performing" in
| a critical sitation where they will be judged can't help but
| find _that_ experience draining.
| jghn wrote:
| I'm somewhere in that morass. I love socializing with people
| I know and enjoy. I hate social interaction with strangers
| and/or people I don't know well, don't like, etc. I'm also
| completely happy being by myself for long stretches of time.
| What's draining vs energizing for me is equally a mess.
|
| Don't know what that makes me but I don't worry about the
| labels
| stronglikedan wrote:
| > introverts find interactions with other "draining"
|
| > I'm pretty sure this is bullshit.
|
| As an introvert, it's spot on. I have no problems socializing
| with people, whether I trust them or not. I spend long
| periods (e.g., days camping) with groups that I trust. I
| enjoy all of it in the moment. I don't have anxiety. It's all
| still draining, and I need to spend days alone to recharge
| after days of socializing, enjoyable or otherwise.
| tayo42 wrote:
| if you went camping on your own, you dont think you still
| need to recharge?
| stronglikedan wrote:
| No, I do that _to_ recharge.
| 0xfae wrote:
| I think if you use the model presented by the author of the
| article, it's less than you need to "recharge" but rather
| that after a few days you've filled your small group and
| large group bucket/quota, and now you need to fill that
| solitude bucket/quota.
|
| It's just two different ways of describing the same
| phenomenon. I like the authors because it's much more
| multi-faceted and easier to find practical applications, at
| least in my mind. "I enjoy a good amount of solitude, and
| I've just spent several days socializing, so I'm going to
| prioritize alone time for the next few days" rather than "I
| need to recharge so I can be social again." It's similar,
| but I like the first one better.
| emptyfile wrote:
| [dead]
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| You're heavily conflating anxiety and introversion. My wife
| is an extrovert with anxiety - once she gets comfortable
| she's energized by people. She comes home bouncing off the
| walls. I'm an introvert - regardless of comfort level I come
| home and want to go to bed immediately.
| pydry wrote:
| Im pretty sure everybody gets energized once they've gotten
| fully comfortable with someone.
|
| That process of getting comfortable is the relevant context
| though - not a virtual dial in their brain that goes from
| "introvert" to "extrovert".
| isk517 wrote:
| Ha, I wish. The level of comfort with someone really only
| effects the rate of energy drain, at least in my case.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| But that's not what I'm saying - I'm saying conversation
| drains me even if I'm with someone I'm comfortable with.
| I'm tired when it's over. My wife is not. She comes home
| excited.
| karaterobot wrote:
| I think what you call bullshit is a core part of the
| generally accepted definition of an introvert, so I'd want
| some more extraordinary proof than this in order to be
| persuaded.
|
| > Ive met many self declared introverts who have no problem
| socializing for long periods in small groups with people they
| trust absolutely.
|
| How do you know they had no problem socializing for long
| periods? Did you ask them, or did they just not complain
| about it to you? Part of the issue for many introverts is the
| social expectation is often set by a more extroverted
| culture, and they just try to fit in. That doesn't mean they
| prefer chatting with you for four hours rather than, say, two
| hours.
| pydry wrote:
| >How do you know they had no problem socializing for long
| periods? Did you ask them
|
| Yes of course. I think pretty much every self declared
| introvert Ive asked about this had 1-5 people for whom
| spending time with them didnt "drain" them - e.g. best
| friend, parent, spouse, etc.
|
| When they described what type of situations drained them
| that they enjoyed it would generally be something like
| going to a party where they didnt know anyone.
| vidarh wrote:
| It does not matter how much I trust someone, or how relaxed I
| am, or indeed how much I enjoy myself with someone, being
| around people still drains me of energy. There are
| differences in how fast, but not whether or not it drains me.
| jgilias wrote:
| Well, no. I guess if you don't know then you don't know.
|
| As an anecdotal personal example. I love my wife and kids
| dearly. I trust them, and feel no anxiety being around them.
| Yet it's draining. Now they're gone for a few days, and I
| feel very good being finally alone for a few days.
|
| Likewise I enjoy getting together with friends and family.
| I've also learned to be sociable. But it's draining. After a
| day of having to interact with people I really, really,
| really cherish being alone for a few hours with my own
| thoughts, and preferably silence.
|
| We're different like that, people in general, I mean.
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| You also adjust to a degree. With a family those longer
| moments can be as rare as a few times a year. I used to be
| alone for many hours or days almost daily when I was
| younger. But I'm doing fine. I really do enjoy the moments
| of solitude but I guess I don't _need_ them as much as I
| thought.
|
| With this "draining" metaphor you'd think every introvert
| parent is a mere husk
| jgilias wrote:
| Recognizing that something takes effort doesn't
| necessarily imply that the activity is not enjoyable or
| worth pursuing.
|
| I mean, I do see how someone might believe that just
| because one finds an activity draining they'd strive to
| avoid it at all costs. But that really doesn't have to be
| the case.
| bityard wrote:
| Well, some of us are. :/
| revskill wrote:
| From my experience, i don't care if i'm introvert or extrovert.
|
| WHat i do really care, is, how much i understand myself. What do
| i really need ? How do i say no ? How do i stay motivated ?....
|
| Those are real matters.
| Given_47 wrote:
| Definitely feel like this isn't nearly as common as it should
| be (possibly cuz it can be uncomfortable for some).
| Additionally to what u mentioned, I regularly ask myself why I
| just did something and try to examine if I truly had all the
| right motivations.
|
| Now this would probably be detrimental if you couldn't trust
| yourself to be honest and risk rationalization taking over.
| Building up trust in yourself is an entirely different topic so
| won't go there but anyway I've found these sort of exercises
| imperative to keeping myself in check and on the path of
| improving as a person, not stagnating or regressing
| PaulHoule wrote:
| People have different reasons for being reclusive. The social
| phobic, the agorapohbic, the autist, and the common but complete
| obscure schizotype (maybe you if you are self-diagnosed
| "autistic") are all examples.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| Usually I feel very comfortable with 1-on-1s, but a lot of times
| at a point I start either to talk too much about myself, or start
| asking too many questions and people start to feel a bit
| uncomfortable or overwhelmed, while I just want to interact and
| learn. Anybody else recognizes this?
| rochak wrote:
| You just described me. I actively try to not do this but I end
| up doing it every single time. I think there may be something
| wrong with me.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| Maybe you would be someone I could easily interact with,
| without them feeling uncomfortable soon ?
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