[HN Gopher] Backyard Metalcasting (2018)
___________________________________________________________________
Backyard Metalcasting (2018)
Author : ishtanbul
Score : 83 points
Date : 2023-07-17 05:01 UTC (18 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.backyardmetalcasting.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.backyardmetalcasting.com)
| numblPleeb wrote:
| This is probably a stretch but: if anyone knows how to contact
| the site owner Lionel Oliver, I know many old-school hobbyist
| metal casters who would really love it if he brought back the
| sister-site forums at alloyavenue.com. Thanks!
| jacquesm wrote:
| At the bottom of the page:
|
| ironwords@hotmail.com
|
| Does that work for you?
| Etrnl_President wrote:
| Try https://www.iforgeiron.com/
| xbar wrote:
| Gosh I spent a lot of time contemplating a sojourn into backyard
| metalcasting. Building my own lathe was a longtime dream.
| sentientmachin3 wrote:
| Not related to metals: how cool is this website? Back in the day
| when the internet had no bs and it was just pure HTML
| imakeinternet wrote:
| Whilst casting isnt for me... this website definitely is. One
| helluva error page too... "END OF THE INTERNET"
|
| http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/error.html
| uticus wrote:
| Having trouble detecting if the bits are random or encoding
| something. Ignoring the spaces and encoding to ASCII yields
| gibberish, maybe something else?
| marthasimons wrote:
| [flagged]
| thomasjb wrote:
| I love the lathe project [1], I recall looking at it quite
| seriously when I was younger. Inspired by this site, I welded up
| a crucible and setup to cast aluminum using charcoal in the
| bottom half of an old pot belly stove, with a hand dryer reused
| as a blower for heat. I did manage to melt some scrap, but I
| didn't have a mold ready that time. My diy flasks weren't great,
| and I lost interest while trying to get some green sand. I would
| like to try again though
|
| [1]: https://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/lathe1.html
| lfowles wrote:
| I had the first book of the Gingery set, but as I was rapidly
| moving around during college I never acted on it. The proposed
| workshop bootstrapping really made my imagination run...
| detourdog wrote:
| This website set me off on my current path in about 2005ish.
| jacquesm wrote:
| What is your current path? (Besides it being a detour...)
| detourdog wrote:
| The simple explanation is the belief that (generally) High-
| end appliances charge too much money for too little thought.
| The use of material is inefficient and the supply chain could
| be better.
|
| I'm trying to make (ambition dates to 1990) a computing
| platform with a 100 year view of usage. The idea is that
| actual human usable technology can be quite slow becuase the
| human time scale is long. The churn of current technology is
| actual vestigial growth.
|
| As soon as I could I registered cogs.com under the belief
| that in the future we will only understand technology
| metaphor.
|
| Flash forward 30 years and I have finally established a small
| run manufacturing facility in an old school. I converted the
| 7 classrooms into studio apartments to facilitate my design
| ideas. The idea is rent the apartments for income and develop
| appliances with my CNC in the 60' x 30'
| gym/cafeteria/auditorium.
|
| Backyard Metalcasting set me off on building:
|
| wooden CNC with gecko drives from that guy who built the
| prototype kit in the bathroom with his wife yelling at him in
| processed unintelligible language with kids crying...
|
| The idea was that I can use it to make molds.
|
| Initial I was going to make appliances in batches of 10 and
| either stock what didn't sell or make more of what did. The
| idea of 10 is that technically I'm an industrial designer
| BSID 91 UArts. No industry no industrial design and I
| reasoned that by creating 10 of something it was proof of
| industry as opposed to art.
|
| I got a legitimate CNC for my studio behind my house and with
| 15 minutes of installation realized I needed to move it to a
| legitimate location.
|
| Found a school for sale a mile from my house house and
| decided to flip the script. I would simply make appliances in
| the gym and use the rental income instead of worrying about
| all the sales work. 7 was close to 10 and maybe I could get 3
| walk sales.
|
| A short 5 years later the school is finally producing income
| with 2 studios rented one more and I'm either breaking even
| or a little ahead on an annual basis. I currently break even
| most months. (tax bills and insurance).
|
| I'm actually at the point where I can truly get started and I
| have been finalizing my technology stack. I plan to develop a
| sloppy in-efficient prototype version that considers the
| entire building as this 100 year computer and the
| HVAC/Power/cleaning/snow removal will all be managed by this
| computer. The belief is that the magic of the computers is in
| the integration of human need and simple experiences. There
| will also be a parallel track of development for a
| streamlined ultra efficient implementation of the same model.
|
| The reasoning between developing along those 2 tracks is that
| with the building I can focus on the human experience
| practicalities be damned. The refined version with be
| resolved experiences in the smallest form possible.
|
| Here is my studio.
|
| https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0YJEsNWnJEa0eN
|
| Here is the rental site with outdated photos but some
| pictures.
|
| view.cogs.com
|
| Shameless plug studio 4 and Studio 1 are currently available.
| The rent includes fiber connection and we can talk about a
| static IP if needed.
|
| Finally for the doomscrollers out there I have 4000 photos of
| the whole project here.
|
| Anyone can view this shared album at:
| https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0Y5oqs3qnakFd
|
| HN provides a great survey of old and new technology trends
| with no ads. I find it is like shouting into the wind and
| marvel that the site works.
|
| I feel my path has been very consistent and filled with
| obstacles. I'm aware that I'm my own biggest obstacle.
| notdarkyet wrote:
| This is very interesting.
|
| I have looked into getting a garage CNC, what did you
| realize after the home install that you needed a legitimate
| location? The size and sound of it?
| detourdog wrote:
| Many reasons. I tend to overdue things so I spec's
| pneumatic devices that required a large 10 bar
| compressor. I installed that in the basement and managed
| to muffle the sound with rockwool. I ordered a German
| machine which was to sensitive for a VFD so I used a
| motor-gen set which shook the 1879 New England farmhouse.
|
| The space for the CNC had low ceilings and it was
| cramped. I could have lived with it but considering the
| other issues I moved.
|
| I thought the move would be fast no way would it take
| more than 2 years. The money I was saving for runway is
| now an 8 unit apartment building but I have time and
| space.
| jacquesm wrote:
| This is absolutely fantastic. It's a pity you're on the
| other side of the Atlantic or I'd be more than happy to
| become one of your tenants.
|
| You may want to put a fresh certificate on cogs.com, the
| current one gives an error.
|
| Really, really love this, thank you for answering in such
| detail.
| detourdog wrote:
| Should be no certificates for cogs. I"m about to go
| through a revamp. I do short term rentals.
|
| Thanks for the feedback.
|
| I need the practice describing what I"m doing.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I just 'doomscrolled' through a few hundred of your
| pictures, incredible what you've done with that building,
| that must have been a pretty costly undertaking. I've
| done some work like that but on much smaller buildings
| and it gives me a bit more perspective on the magnitude
| of what you're doing and what you've accomplished already
| in a relatively short time. Best of luck with this whole
| project, I really wished I still lived in .ca.
| lerchmo wrote:
| This type of website is where I spent the late 90's. Tesla coils
| and quarter crusher instructions. This is a great website!
| hinkley wrote:
| YouTube videos about metalworking are how I learned there are
| several degrees of burn worse than 3rd degree. I'll spare you the
| gorey details, but molten metal is not something to fuck around
| with on a whim. You're basically lion taming as a hobby.
| Disrespect the "cat" and it'll eat your liver.
|
| I might some day try forging, but I'll leave casting to the
| experts.
| rewmie wrote:
| > YouTube videos about metalworking are how I learned there are
| several degrees of burn worse than 3rd degree.
|
| Isn't 4th degree the last stop?
|
| https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?Con...
|
| After burning through muscle and bone, there is not much beyond
| that to warrant another level in the classification.
|
| In fact, some classifications just end in 3rd degree, and
| bundle muscle and bone damage in it.
| last_responder wrote:
| >After burning through muscle and bone,
|
| After bone its muscle and skin as it comes out the other
| side.
| defrost wrote:
| Metal spits and sticks to flesh, it's nasty.
|
| Metal poured into anything with latent moisture (damp ingot
| tray, etc) is a steam powered mini bomb with molten shrapnel.
|
| Glass working, hot or cold, is much better for your mental
| health, it doesn't spit or stick.
| hinkley wrote:
| The steam bomb scenario is the most alarming scenario to me.
|
| Though I've seen people destroy their garage floor as well.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| Nah, the scariest is that aluminum, like other alkali
| metals, literally explodes when it comes into contact with
| water. This is extremely rare with aluminum since aluminum
| quickly forms a layer of oxide, and even when casting it's
| unlikely to happen, at least in hobbyist foundries. You can
| even find videos of idiots pouring molten aluminum into a
| swimming pool to show that it's "safe" and nothing bad
| happens. But the possibility is very real, and while it's
| pretty dang unlikely there's no good reason to
| _intentionally_ pour your molten aluminum anywhere near
| water.
|
| Edit: found a Hackaday article that covers this in more
| detail
|
| https://hackaday.com/2020/12/30/water-and-molten-
| aluminium-i...
| actionfromafar wrote:
| If you can do it with some remote controlled contraption and
| wait 24h until everything cools off before entering?
| hef19898 wrote:
| I started forging, knives for the time being, a while ago. Once
| I graduate to swords, I already have some parts I want cast in
| bronze. Which is, apparantly, easier to do than metal casting.
| In the speed I work on this stuff so, ask me again in 5-10
| years whether or not it is actually true...
| zrobotics wrote:
| Tip for future you: start with aluminum, it's much more
| approachable. Just make sure your feed stock is a castable
| alloy, stuff like t6 or cans will make terrible castings.
| Easiest way to do this is to use chunks of scrap that you
| know were cast, so look for signs that the original part was
| cast like mold lines or unmachined surfaces.
|
| The reason to start with aluminum is the temp is way lower so
| it's much easier to build the furnace and the metal is cheap
| and readily available. You aren't wasting your time, since
| all the basics of mold design still apply such as controlling
| shrinkage and preventing freeze off. Paul's garage on YouTube
| has some excellent videos that cover the process in an
| instructional way, many of the other channels that cover
| casting just focus on the finished project. While very cool,
| these videos aren't always super helpful for a beginner.
| People also hate on the gingery books, but there is a wealth
| of super useful information there and the fundamentals
| haven't changed.
|
| It's a super fun hobby, especially if you're already into
| blacksmithing. But do be careful and definitely heed the
| safety warnings, there is definitely the potential for an
| explosion or very harmful fumes.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Thanks for the tip with aluminium, I'll keep that in mind.
| Once I get to it so, I'm already 8 months late on my son's
| kukri... Lucky for me so, the maker space I forge at,
| sometimes, has a blacksmith that drops by. So if I need
| help, there is a pro available!
| jacquesm wrote:
| Bronze casting _is_ metal casting.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Hah, there I read metal as iron/steel in my head... it
| surely is hot round here...
| jacquesm wrote:
| If I may suggest: if you want to get into this stuff
| start off with lost foam (xps for best results) casts in
| Aluminum. It's probably the simplest process (after
| casting lead...) and it will at least give you an idea of
| the basics before more complicated moves.
| jstanley wrote:
| In my (admittedly limited) experience metal casting is a waste of
| time if you want to produce usable parts. It never goes right. It
| always has porosity. It very rarely even fills the entire mould.
|
| And preparing the mould and heating the metal takes forever, so
| it doesn't take too many failed attempts before you have sunk
| days into a project with nothing to show for it.
|
| It's fine if you just want to cast metal shapes as a hobby, knock
| yourself out. But if you are casting because you want to make
| parts that you can use, then you're better off machining them out
| of solid material if you can. You'll save yourself time and
| trouble.
| Etrnl_President wrote:
| Porosity can be reduced by using the correct flux.
| antigonemerlin wrote:
| The lathe is honestly one of the most underrated inventions of
| modern civilization.
|
| Though I can't recall of the top of my head, there are
| certainly more than a few inventions which were simply not
| practical to build before the invention of the lathe because
| the tolerances were not good enough with traditional
| techniques.
| a2tech wrote:
| There's an argument to be made that the rapid advancement of
| human technology is down to the creation of the metal lathe:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djB9oK6pkbA&t=751s
| Youden wrote:
| The practical kind of steam engine that drove the industrial
| revolution is one example. Steam engines existed earlier but
| when they started turning the cylinders, they became much
| more efficient which allowed them to be used for a much
| larger variety of tasks.
|
| "The Perfectionists" by Simon Winchester goes into a whole
| lot of detail about the history of precision and the role
| it's taken.
| roelschroeven wrote:
| Also Machine Thinking's videos "The 1751 Machine that Made
| Everything" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djB9oK6pkbA),
| "Origins of Precision"
| (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNRnrn5DE58) and some
| others on his channel.
| WillAdams wrote:
| There's an entire books series on this concept, the "Gingery"
| books where the first in the series is setting up a foundry
| for casting, while the second is making a lathe from
| investment castings because a lathe is the only tool in a
| workshop which can duplicate itself.
|
| https://gingerybookstore.com/
|
| the balance of the books are making the other tools in a
| machine shop.
|
| Had the second book once upon a time, and will eventually get
| the entire set.
| forgetfreeman wrote:
| It sounds like you may have gone into casting with light info
| and unrealistic expectations for the process? Precision parts
| are always cast in a multi-step process wherein blanks are
| produced via the casting process and then surface prep and
| machining is applied as needed.
| jjoonathan wrote:
| This post helps calibrate the expectations of those who
| follow. That's a good thing. It's one thing to know that
| something is possible, it's another to know the grade of the
| learning curve.
| zrobotics wrote:
| So from your reports (porosity, not filling the mold) you were
| likely running into 2 very common issues, one easily
| correctible.
|
| For porosity, especially if you were using aluminum, that is
| very likely from using the wrong alloy. Trying to remelt
| aluminum cans or extrusions especially will produce very porous
| castings. Start with a known-castable alloy, the easy way is to
| start with scrap that was previously cast. Look at the original
| part for signs it was cast, that doesn't tell you the exact
| alloy but it does tell you that it can be cast.
|
| For the not filling the mold, that is shrinkage. The metal
| contracts when freezing, which can cause the part to be
| undersize or have large voids. This is fixed by proper mold
| design, which is a surprisingly large topic and a bit of an art
| as well and can't be covered in a single topic. One thing to
| look into is adding a riser, a larger chunk that is designed to
| stay molten after the part has frozen to concentrate shrinkage.
| j-bos wrote:
| But casting is also fun and exciting. Mark of a good hobby, the
| waste of time also protects you from getting caught up in
| monetization.
| fakedang wrote:
| Metal casting is relatively safer and far more scalable than
| machining. Not to mention, who's going to be paying for all the
| worn lathes?
| convolvatron wrote:
| eh. I just bought a new mill because of space, but otherwise
| all my machine tools are from the 60s. yes, the ways are a
| bit worn. yes the cross-slide and table have a divots. yes, I
| had to pay too much for a screw because my lathe was broken
| and I couldn't make a new screw for it.
|
| but they are much better made and with a little tlc are very
| serviceable machines. and they run less than $1/lb in the US
| because we shut most of that down.
| rewmie wrote:
| > In my (admittedly limited) experience metal casting is a
| waste of time
|
| Don't you mean pastime?
|
| > It never goes right. It always has porosity. It very rarely
| even fills the entire mould.
|
| It sounds like a few sets of skills that need to be mastered.
| jacquesm wrote:
| DIY metal casting definitely can be done. Not everything is
| machinable shape wise, casting allows you to make things that
| are either impossible or very hard to make out of a single
| billet.
|
| But like any other skill at this level of complexity it will
| take substantial dedication to be able to do it at a level
| where you can do it with a useable degree of (repeat) accuracy.
| Even real foundries test new molds and more often than not
| improve them after they learn how a particular mold behaves in
| practice.
|
| Sand casting (the preferred method for low quantity bronze and
| cast iron runs) is error prone even in the best of cases but in
| the end it is very much worth it. Lost foam is another process
| that can work well for for instance aluminum (and is
| comparatively easy).
|
| One reason why you really might want to stay from all of this
| is simply because it is far more dangerous than you might think
| when looking at the gear. But if you do go for it I would
| suggest starting with very simple castings and then to cut them
| open afterwards to check them for integrity and to learn what
| causes issues and how to avoid them. All the magic and the hard
| bits are in the prep work, the pouring is the easy part.
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| Forgive my ignorance, but what is there that's not machinable
| shape-wise, but is still castable? The more difficult the
| shape, certainly, the more difficult the casting?
|
| Am I missing something?
| jacquesm wrote:
| You're not necessarily missing anything if you haven't done
| a lot of machining. But if you have then you probably know
| what I'm getting at. Tooling requires space to work, far
| more space than is sometimes available in the workpiece. So
| complex shapes, especially shapes with a lot of interior
| work and lots of detailing on all sides of the workpiece
| are much easier to make as a casting than as a milled or
| turned piece.
|
| Every time you take a piece off the machine you need to re-
| register it, perfectly. This is doable but requires a ton
| of work and can severely constrain your design, after all,
| you'll have to re-clamp it after changing orientation.
|
| You can easily see this by looking at for instance the
| output of 3D printers and then to try to think about how
| you would go about making the exact same pieces using
| substractive processes. Plenty of times you'll find that
| this is super hard or even that it can not be done at all.
|
| Of course, the reverse is also true: there are pieces that
| you can mill and turn but that you can't make using an
| additive process. For every workpiece there is an optimum
| set of tools and processes to make it, some workpieces have
| a lot of options and some have only one.
|
| When the number of solutions is 'zero' or when you have
| only some tools available and no access to others you have
| to get creative, maybe split the piece up, use a different
| material or come up with your own tools or processes.
| krisoft wrote:
| > what is there that's not machinable shape-wise, but is
| still castable
|
| Yes. For example imagine a 3d jewellery made of a web of
| thin filaments. It can be non-machinable for two reasons:
| The wires can be too thin individually and machining them
| out of a solid block would break them, while they can
| support themselves once cast. Or you might have shapes
| where one of the wires is surrounded by the other wires and
| you can't get the tool in.
|
| As an example image: https://static.wixstatic.com/media/4f7
| 223_21af8794dc874622a6...
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| Thank you for the example. It's clearer now. Still, I am
| puzzled at how you even go about making a mold for that.
| GravitasFailure wrote:
| Traditionally, hand carve the ring out of wax and use a
| lost wax casting method. These days you can 3D print in a
| wax filament or machine the wax in multiple pieces, hand
| finish, then cast.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Love the 300-pixel-wide images.
|
| Actually, I hate them. I remember for the longest time people
| clung to small images on the Web. Sites would add "Zoom" buttons
| but when you clicked on them the images were enlarged maybe 50%?
| What was the point?
|
| Sites like this were what made the early web awesome though. I
| confess though that someone's passion site like this though is
| probably better replaced now with the dozens of YouTube videos
| you will find on the subject. Video definitely killed the JPEG
| star when it comes to how-to.
| globular-toast wrote:
| Have you forgotten how slow 56k dial-up was? A high-quality 1MP
| JPEG would take the best part of a minute to load under ideal
| conditions. Firefox lets you simulate this in the responsive
| design mode. You can view the website at a resolution of the
| day (like 1025x768) and throttle the speed to GPRS, which is
| similar to 56k speed. You can easily see why they used small
| images. Having the larger images available was just them being
| nice, but it wasn't at all practical to have them by default.
|
| Amazing to think that today we expect videos to start playing
| instantly.
| regularfry wrote:
| The other thing is that at 1024x768 a 300px image isn't
| actually that small. On a 16" screen it would have been
| something like 5" diagonally.
| Arrath wrote:
| Watching images load in line by line at a torturously slow
| pace over dialup may have helped me build such zen-like
| patience.
|
| ....or explain my appreciation for delayed gratification.
| Didn't even know I was developing that as a teenager.
| dieselgate wrote:
| this is awesome and seems like a great resource; i'll personally
| stick to backyard welding (no pun intended)
| raintrees wrote:
| For those interested, a fairly comprehensive book on backyard
| metalcasting from scrap (from the ground up) is David Gingery's
| Build Your Own Metal Working Shop from Scrap
| https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/build-your-own-metal-working-s...
|
| Starting with green sand, scrap metal, charcoal, and a pot, pour
| parts to build a lathe, and so on.
|
| It looks like he has put out quite a few "how to" books:
| https://www.thriftbooks.com/a/david-j-gingery/381968/
| forgotusername6 wrote:
| I made a flowerpot furnace many years ago. I think maybe this
| site was the guide. It worked really well. I started off with
| sand casting and then used the lost wax method. I cast things
| like Lego men or chess pieces. I cast a variety of metals, lead
| (horrible, don't do that), aluminium, copper and this weird
| aluminium/magnesium mix I obtained from a burnt out car engine
| block.
|
| For the crucible and various components for the furnace I'd make
| items out of fireclay and fire them first.
|
| The blower for the furnace was a vacuum cleaner with a copper
| pipe attached to the vent.
|
| It was a fun project though took quite a bit of time to get the
| metal up to temperature.
| tomcam wrote:
| What did you cast with the aluminium/magnesium mix? Was the
| origin of the mix an old VW Beetle engine?
| forgotusername6 wrote:
| More lego men. I didn't take much of the engine block. The
| car had been abandoned and burnt out and the engine had
| melted and pooled over the road. I don't remember the make. I
| took pieces that I could scrape up easily. I'm only guessing
| at magnesium because of the way it reacted when prodded. It
| would sort of pop and spit when I poked it when molten. I'd
| be happy to be corrected if someone knew of another metal
| that would react so violently when exposed to air.
| quaddo wrote:
| My wife fell in love with metal sculpting years ago, thanks to
| the local college offerings. Each of her courses exposed her to
| various approaches, such as welding and bronze casting. Her
| favorite by far was the once-a-semester iron pour.
|
| There are 4 classes total, and you're allowed to take each
| class a maximum 2 times. So she maxed herself out because she
| couldn't get enough.
|
| There was a road trip one year to another state, a gathering of
| like minds. It was held at a decommissioned iron foundry /
| museum. Various people gave talks on their style and
| techniques, which was super interesting according to my wife.
| She and the other students (and the instructor) had also
| brought along the molds they'd been working diligently on (wax
| filled) so that they could enjoy doing their iron pour onsite.
| My wife's project was 72 lbs once completed.
|
| She said that between the weather (hot and humid), the locale,
| and the protective gear, she spent a lot of time uncomfortably
| hot and gritty. And loved every moment. It's her happy place.
|
| She almost went with a group to Germany to do something
| similar; a metal sculpting retreat for a week or so. But the
| pandemic threw a spanner into that.
| convolvatron wrote:
| idk where you live, but there are metal artists all
| over..usually closer than going to another state. they will
| often work in groups where the space is cheap casting bronze
| doesn't require much beyond a little propane furnace.
|
| if it makes her happy, she should really consider just
| starting and not waiting for arranged opportunities.
| hacknewslogin wrote:
| For anyone looking for an awesome series of books, these will
| expand your backyard workshop. Build Your Own Metal Working Shop
| From Scrap: https://www.gingerybookstore.com/
|
| You start with learning how to cast, then work on casting parts
| for a lathe and other projects.
|
| edit: It looks like the site's author has some of these books! He
| has a page detailing building the lathe:
| https://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/lathe1.html
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