[HN Gopher] The Perfect Laptop
___________________________________________________________________
The Perfect Laptop
Author : signa11
Score : 80 points
Date : 2023-07-16 05:35 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (blog.brossia.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (blog.brossia.com)
| LorenDB wrote:
| This is why I own a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Yoga :)
|
| It also has quite nice system specs - 11th gen i7 and 32 GB RAM.
| hot_gril wrote:
| MacBook Pro is near perfect. Just needs one USB-A port.
| bamfly wrote:
| You're not wrong. They pulled the A ports _way_ too early. I
| upgrade more aggressively than a normal user (though less than
| a real cutting-edge enthusiast) and have only recently passed
| the 50 /50 mark for devices in semi-regular use that use A vs
| C. A-terminated cords are still at least as popular on devices
| on store shelves, as C. This, _years_ after Apple made a hard
| transition.
|
| If they'd at least brought the rest of their line-up over at
| the same time, that'd help sell me on that having been a good
| idea. But no, have to carry at least two types of charging
| cable when traveling, still, even with an all-Apple set of
| equipment.
| hot_gril wrote:
| Yeah and the biggest problem with that hard transition was
| that even as a well-behaved Mac user going all-in on USB-C,
| you'd quickly run out of ports, and there were literally no
| USB-C hubs on the market for years. Now they exist but cost a
| lot more than -A ones and have caveats due to varying
| capabilities. So -A peripherals still make sense even with -C
| laptops, and most things I see are still -A.
| JamesAdir wrote:
| As much as I'd like to find a new laptop, I can't still find
| anything better in terms of form factor and keyboard than the
| ThinkPad X200/X220. Really can't understand why they don't keep
| at least one model that is aimed at people looking for a laptop
| you can work on, and not just another model with tenth of an inch
| shaved of the thickness of the laptop.
| bhauer wrote:
| > _2560 /1600 = 1.6 (this is a good aspect ratio, the perfect
| laptop has a ratio <= 1.6)_
|
| Not just laptops, but monitors in general should be 16:10 or
| taller. 16:9 only became popular thanks to the computer display
| industry naively adopting the aspect ratio of televisions. But
| 16:9 comes from the film industry and has nothing to do with
| computer productivity. It's a shame that so many monitor
| manufacturers still focus almost exclusively on 16:9 (or even
| wider, when width is easily achieved by multiple monitors, side-
| by-side). I'm fine with the wide options existing, but give me
| some taller options, too, please.
| qwytw wrote:
| > or even wider, when width is easily achieved by multiple
| monitors, side-by-side)
|
| Why would I want that considering I can get a 21:9 or so
| display which is also sufficiently tall?
|
| I definitely agree on laptops and small display though.
| TheRealPomax wrote:
| I'd add "expandable storage" (and "can be fixed") because even if
| it's an Apple-esque SoC (which we're clearly going to be seeing
| more of in the future by other brands), there is no reason to not
| offer one or ideally two m.2 slots that you can just stick more,
| "slower", storage in.
| qwytw wrote:
| > there is no reason
|
| There is a very good reason called "profit margin"...
|
| Good luck charging $500 for an extra 768 GB of storage if there
| is an m2 slot.
| t3rabytes wrote:
| I'd venture to guess that the take rate on custom configs
| from any manufacturer is quite low. Most consumers are going
| to go to Best Buy, Apple Store, et al and buy what config is
| available today, not wait to order some custom model.
| qwytw wrote:
| I'm pretty sure 512/1024 GB or 16 GB MBAs are generally
| available in stores without a ordering a custom model.
|
| And wouldn't most people order online nowadays?
| TheRealPomax wrote:
| Then it's a good thing no one charges that. I'm all for
| calling out Apple for bullshit, but their "768 GB more" model
| is a $200 upsell, not $500. And yes: it's a huge leap from
| $200 to $500.
| goosedragons wrote:
| Depends on the model. The MBAs and Mac Mini ship with 256GB
| by default and getting 1TB (768GB more) is an extra $400
| USD. The MBPs and Studio/Pro start at 512GB so 1TB is
| "only" $200.
| qwytw wrote:
| In Europe MBA M2 upgrade to 1 TB is 460 euros which is is
| about $520, in US it's $400 + taxes.
| lapcat wrote:
| The closest I've ever seen to the perfect laptop (for me) was my
| 2006 17-inch MacBook Pro, to which I wrote an ode:
| https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/macbookpro.html
| ablyveiled wrote:
| Personally, I've found laptops to just be a complete nonstarter
| for routine usage lately, owing to some postural dysfunction.
| fsflover wrote:
| I believe this laptop should also be in the list:
| https://puri.sm/products/librem-14
| qwytw wrote:
| The screen seem to be low res and the aspect ratio is awful..
| 9g3890fj2 wrote:
| Created an account just to comment - what is awful about
| 16:9, or "low res" about 1920x1080, for a laptop?
| fifafu wrote:
| you have probably never used a high res display on a
| laptop, it makes a huge difference ;-) Macbook Pros have
| had high res displays since 2012 (2880x1800 for the 15"
| back then)
|
| The current 14" Macbook Pro comes with 3024x1964. Some
| other laptops go even higher.
| naspex wrote:
| You inspired me to do the same.
|
| It's my first comment here: don't buy any puri.sm products.
| Or better say, think thrice before doing so. I used to own
| Librem 15 v4 which I bought in April 2020. Everything was
| bad. Just barely usable as a laptop. In January 2022 I
| spilled a water on the keyboard and some keys got stuck, so
| it kept on typing some letters sporadically. Tried to
| replace keyboard -> 150$ + delivery because it's the whole
| top panel to replace. No. OK, disconnected the keyboard and
| bought a compact Lenovo keyboard (also appeared to be a
| trashy thing). Half a year later the battery died. No
| chance to replace, out-of-stock, not even on chinese
| eshops.
|
| Also, I preordered Librem 5 all the way back in 2019.
| Decided to cancel the order a year ago - still waiting for
| my money to come back.
|
| Puri.sm gave me an impression of a scam copmany,
| unfortunately.
| fsflover wrote:
| I'm an owner of Librem 5, Librem 15v3 and Librem 14.
| First one is the best phone one can dream of: runs
| desktop GNU/Linux without any proprietary blobs, has a
| replaceable battery (and I do have a spare one), WiFi and
| modem, kill switches (for camera/mic, WiFi/Bluetooth,
| modem), lifetime updates (from mainline Linux). Runs as a
| desktop if you connect a screen/keyboard.
|
| Librem 15 is an amazing machine, still my daily driver
| with Qubes OS. Great keyboard, upgradeable RAM and disk,
| doesn't require any blobs in the userland.
|
| Librem 14 is even better, with two .m2 SSD, upgradeable
| and powerful. Definitely checks many boxes in TFA. Too
| smal for my taste but great for travelling.
|
| Yes, Purism has problems with refunds. Don't buy if you
| want to cancel your order. Everything else is great.
| Also, forums say that first versions of their devices may
| have rough edges. Wait until they are well tested to be
| sure. Librem 14 is well tested and many early problems
| were solved. Same for Librem 5.
| [deleted]
| qwytw wrote:
| > 16:9, or "low res" about 1920x1080
|
| Nothing if you're mainly going to use it to watch HD
| movies. I don't mind the resolution on a 13-14 inch screen
| to much to be fair, but IMHO 16:9 is really quite awful on
| such a small screen (and tolerable on 15-17 inch ones)
| maximamas wrote:
| I'm no die hard apple fan, but you would think I was if you heard
| me talking about my 16" m1 pro. It's an absolute beast, battery
| for days, and I've never heard the fan spin up once. It would
| take a lot for me to even give another machine a chance.
| CraigJPerry wrote:
| Heavy though. Coming from an m1 air to a 16" pro is cartoon-
| eyes-out-on-stalks surprising when you first pick it up.
|
| I can't help wonder if the m2 air 15" is the best on the market
| currently.
| nwienert wrote:
| The 15 air is actually quite a bit heavier, it goes from
| 'easily hold it up with one hand with lid open' to, well,
| barely possible.
|
| I'm so surprised more people don't want brighter screens.
|
| At night my screen looks gorgeous, though I could even go a
| touch brighter when doing detailed design stuff.
|
| Daytime? I'd go for literally 2-3x brighter if I could. Let
| alone working outside! Screen brightness is the biggest QoL
| improvement I'd get vs any other spec bump.
| CraigJPerry wrote:
| Yeah a brighter screen would be awesome. i misunderstood
| that the m1pro would be a huge step up in brightness from
| the m1air but it's just as borderline in direct sunlight
| walthamstow wrote:
| 15in M2 Air or 14in M1 Pro are both really great options, the
| optimal mix of screen size, weight, size and power
| garciasn wrote:
| I use a 13" M2 and it's by far the best laptop I've ever
| used.
|
| The only things it doesn't check off is the HDMI out and
| other ports issues IMO.
| fragmede wrote:
| FWIW the 14" and 16" M2 pro/max Macbook Pros have HDMI,
| SDXC, three usb-c ports, and a headphone jack.
| garciasn wrote:
| I strongly prefer portability to port availability.
|
| I work with my laptop only. No peripherals and I move
| around a lot. Makes it easier for me to work this way.
| jwells89 wrote:
| I've been very happy with the 16" M1 Pro's I've done work on.
| It's probably the first laptop I've used where the load
| threshold at which its fans make noticeable noise feels
| somewhat appropriate (rather than spinning up for little to no
| reason), its power level feels more desktop-class than laptop-
| class, and I don't have to keep my eye glued to the battery
| meter even when running heavy IDEs.
|
| I'm even kinda happy about the notch, because it prompted Apple
| to add a strip of extra pixels for the menubar to live in,
| leaving the remaining 16:10 area fully open for use by apps.
|
| The only downside is its weight, but given all of its other
| upsides I can live with that.
| andrepd wrote:
| Meh. I have battery for 10 hours, better than the 7 on my Linux
| machine but not stellar. Graphics are mediocre. Lack of ports
| means I have to carry dongles around. And putting up with macOS
| (with no Linux available) is a complete dealbreaker.
| jimmychoozyx wrote:
| Personally, for me, the best laptop ever made is:
|
| 14 inch M2 Macbook Pro.
|
| Combine it with the Anker 737 Power Bank, and it's a match made
| in heaven.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| It's less difficult than I thought to to get an M1 Max chip hot
| enough to spin up fans. Run CitiesSkylines on a 4K display with
| all of the graphics maxed out for a few hours. ;)
|
| Or do 8 parallel runs of transforming and merging a massive
| amount of jpgs into less massive pile of pdfs. Just about fully
| pegged all of the cores for hours.
|
| What surprised me was how fast everything still was. Without
| the fan, I wouldn't have known the load the system was under.
| Clamchop wrote:
| This is a tangent but, I cannot for the life of me get
| Skylines to run without the cursor offset by approximately
| the height of the notch, even on an external display. Have
| you not had this problem?
| willio58 wrote:
| I've been rocking this same device for a while now and it's
| revived my apple fanboyness just a little. The hardware itself
| gets an A+ from me.
|
| What I really want from Apple at this point is better UX on
| MacOS. Stage Manager is an interesting idea but, to me, it's
| not really a fix for any of my problems so I've just disabled
| it. I've used two 4k external monitors for years on MacOS and
| the same little annoying bugs plague me. Specifically, I think
| how MacOS handles full-screen apps is just not quite right. I
| don't understand why things feel clunky in just this area of
| the experience. We need what happened in iOS a few years ago
| when they got rid of the home button and were forced to make
| opening/closing/switching between apps much more fluid. I need
| MacOS to feel fluid like that. Then, it'd really be "perfect"
| for me.
| artificialLimbs wrote:
| Not affiliated, just a happy customer: https://ubarapp.com/
| wnc3141 wrote:
| There's something about being very well constructed with high
| attention to detail / finishes. Growing up my parents had a new
| Subaru and a much older Mercedes station wagon. As a teen
| driving both, you could feel the difference in finishes, and
| overall solidness of the Mercedes, it felt like driving an
| adequately powered slab of marble where as the much newer
| Subaru felt, well plastic and fragile in comparison.
| sonofhans wrote:
| Oh, now you're speaking my language. That's exactly why I
| drive old Mercedes station wagons: everything else feels like
| it's barely holding together.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| The M1 finally convinced me to forgive Apple for canceling the
| Apple ][.
| matteoraso wrote:
| The thing that's holding me back from getting one is the memory
| markups. The base configuration is too low and I can't just
| change the memory myself because everything is soldered.
| Greenpants wrote:
| I used to give Apple the ole' eye roll for that as well. Then
| I realised, as I got a MacBook myself and dove into running
| Machine Learning models on it, the RAM setup is pretty
| unique.
|
| Essentially, the RAM is so close to the CPU and GPU that it
| can effectively be used as VRAM, at least for the M1 and up
| chipsets as far as I'm aware. That means a 32GB RAM MacBook
| would be able to run incredibly large (e.g. LLM) networks on-
| device. Nvidia GPUs with that much VRAM (although they are
| clearly better at GPU tasks) can cost as much as an expensive
| MacBook already.
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| >good quality DAC or audio interface (headphone jack), this is
| also something Apple tends to do a little better than competitors
|
| No laptop has a decent DAC. If you want a good dac, just get
| something external. Don't need to spend a lot either, even a
| relatively cheap ~$70 product will vastly outperform anything in
| a laptop, desktop or phone.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| To be clear, unless you are in the > $2,500 headphone space,
| DAC quality has a hard limit of actual hearable use. Under that
| point, most external DACs are pure snake oil. If A user has
| $200 to spend on a pair of over-ear headphones. they should
| spend $9 on the DAC and $191 on the headphones.
|
| Hell, the $9 headphone adaptor vastly outperformed a number of
| $100+ DACs.
|
| The primary limitation of headphone quality onboard laptops is
| generally EMI, not the DAC. The Apple hardware is shockingly
| good on this front.
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| Sure, most DACs that just use off-the-shelf chips are
| virtually identical in terms of how they sound, until you get
| to the really high end, as you said.
|
| However, _in practice_ having a cheap external DAC is a
| massive improvement, even if the hardware is fairly similar.
|
| I think a good chunk of it is just being able to give the
| software exclusive control over the DAC, and passing in the
| results bit-perfectly, bypassing any mixers in the OS or
| software. Many integrated setups will do dumb things like
| resample, convert DSD to PCM, can't handle high bit depths or
| rates, etc.
|
| In my experience, it's night and day when you have it set up
| correctly, even with a very cheap external DAC.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| The only important thing about a DAC is power isolation. You
| don't want to hear the coil whine of your CPU/GPU through
| your headphones.
|
| Thankfully most motherboard manufacturers have this figured
| out well enough that noisy audio jacks are a thing of the
| past.
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| I had a (in hindsight) hilarious issue with this at one
| point.
|
| I have a big GPU. Big GPU makes noise. That noise goes
| through the PCIe connector and into the motherboard. It
| then made it to the _ethernet_ port. It went through my
| ethernet port to my ethernet switch, which then made it to
| the Raspberry Pi I was using for streaming, which went into
| my DAC, AMP and finally speakers.
|
| It was because I was using shielded twisted pair, which
| connects the ground plane.
|
| Power isolation is an insidious problem!
| buildbot wrote:
| People disagree with you when it comes to modern Apple
| hardware: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/2021-macbook-
| pro-14s-dac-sou...
|
| They actually put a really good audio subsystem in these
| things.
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| In my experience, Apple's offerings are only _marginally_
| better than the average, and are still vastly outperformed by
| something external.
|
| You don't need to spend a lot, but it really comes down to a
| couple things:
|
| * External, dedicated DAC
|
| * The software doing playback has _exclusive_ control over
| the device (no Windows /Apple/Android audio mixers messing it
| up)
|
| * Set it for bit-perfect playback (this will disable any
| mixers available in the application)
|
| * [If possible] Play a lossless copy of the audio or use a
| streaming service that offers that option (space is cheap in
| 2023)
|
| Bam. Those steps will be night-and-day over anything
| integrated, it's not even close.
| lawn wrote:
| > a great keyboard, look to the 2008-11 era ThinkPads for
| inspiration
|
| For me a great keyboard includes having an ergonomic layout and
| being programmable via QMK or similar.
| jollyllama wrote:
| Author forgot swappable battery
| lucb1e wrote:
| And no soldered-on RAM while we're at it
|
| Checking that this isn't in the article, I noticed the word
| "RAM" isn't mentioned at all. Did someone say 24GB? I ordered
| 2x16 but then found that Lenovo ( >:( ) soldered on one of the
| sticks and I ended up with 24. Haven't run out yet. Though that
| may not be the most hedged against developers' speculation on
| user hardware progression for no reason other than to be more
| lazy (looking at Signal and Telegram here, among others).
| biggoodwolf wrote:
| HP DV2000 keyboard. Unbelievably good by modern standards, better
| than many older thinkspads
| etchalon wrote:
| The only laptop I've ever considered perfect was Apple's Pismo
| Powerbook G3 line.
|
| Hot-swap modules, a sturdy build, a great screen, keyboard and
| trackpad.
| PhasmaFelis wrote:
| > a large, quality touchpad backed by great software > another
| Apple _can't put my finger on why this is so much better than
| everyone else_ things
|
| I was gonna say, I don't use Apple devices anymore but _no one_
| makes touchpads like Apple. I have no idea what it is or why it
| 's apparently so hard to replicate, but MacBook touchpads seem to
| intuitively work exactly how I expect them to, to the point that
| they're pretty much as seamless to use as a mouse. No non-Mac
| model I'd used before or since measures up.
| intrasight wrote:
| Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Especially with
| something that I would think is only used infrequently.
| javaunsafe2019 wrote:
| I would add the asus m16 to that list
| Daneel_ wrote:
| T-series Lenovo thinkpads. They perfectly fit the bill here, and
| have for years.
| LaurensBER wrote:
| For those who are budget or environmental conscious a second-hand
| Huawei Matebook can be a great choice. The older premium models
| have great battery life (think 13+ hours when undervolted), are
| passive cooled, have great 3:2 high resolution screens (with very
| thin bezels) and very good build quality. You can charge them
| with USB-C so if you have an Android phone you don't need an
| extra charger. SSD is upgradeable, sadly memory is not.
|
| It's not an alternative for a M2 MacBook, nor is it going to run
| your 200+ microservices but for 200-300 bucks they tick a lot of
| the boxes and work great as ultra-portable productivity machines.
| huangc10 wrote:
| Recently got a 14" mbp m2 Pro for work. So far 3 months in, I
| "think" it is the perfect work/personal laptop (excluding
| gaming).
| jimmychoozyx wrote:
| Check out the Anker 737 Power Bank
|
| I love the combo of my 14" M2 + Anker 737
| uncletaco wrote:
| Honestly my thing about buying a laptop for gaming is if you're
| gonna basically be plugged in to use it anyways you might as
| well get an itx case, throw in all the parts you need with a
| portable screen and keyboard and it will all fit in a backpack
| for you to carry around. Granted there aren't as many console
| style cases around as there used to be. I think I ordered the
| last Skyreach 4 Tiny.
| jononomo wrote:
| The following is my review on Amazon.com of the M1 MacBook Air:
|
| This is a landmark model, a classic, a perfect machine.
|
| I've been using the 2020 M1 MacBook Air base model (8 GB Ram, 256
| GB HD) for almost 3 years now as a daily driver. I'm a software
| engineer and I use it to do web development, often with a single
| large external monitor. I have the base model and it holds up
| find to running multiple docker containers and my terminal and a
| couple dozen browser tabs and my editor and all the basic tools
| of software development.
|
| The design is particularly sleek and minimalist, even as MacBooks
| go. It has everything it needs and nothing it doesn't.
|
| And it is solidly built. I dropped my MacBook on a concrete floor
| at an airport from about shoulder height (I was holding it by
| squeezing it with my armpit while trying to pack up after going
| through security and it slipped) and it took a pretty good solid
| hit directly on the corner -- I have a small dent there in the
| aluminum that you would have to look pretty close to see, and
| other than that everything was fine.
|
| The battery lasts for so long that I often go a day or two
| without even thinking about where my charger is.
|
| It is very light, it has a fingerprint reader that works
| perfectly, and everything about it just seems functional and
| elegant.
|
| Also, it's super fast and snappy.
|
| I think this will go down in history as a landmark model. Apple
| did a particularly good job with this machine and I believe it
| will stand the test of time. This is a machine that a person
| could use for a decade. It's really nice and really well put
| together and well integrated as an overall package.
| mgaunard wrote:
| I've got a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Nano Gen1. Better than Gen2 IMHO.
|
| The touchpad is the first thing I disable on any laptop. I use
| the keyboard and the red dot.
| pachico wrote:
| I'm tempted to say that it also needs IPS/anti-reflection screen.
|
| I am currently in the process of choosing a laptop and it's one
| of my main requirements. So far, I'm looking with tender eyes to
| the MSI Prestige 13 EVO. I have no idea about Linux
| compatibility, thought.
| bdcravens wrote:
| I'm not sure that things have changed much, but this article is
| from 2022.
| binkHN wrote:
| I'll be that guy--The Perfect Laptop requires a TrackPoint. ;)
| jehb wrote:
| I came here to make this comment if it hadn't already been
| made.
|
| Seriously though, this is the one thing that has kept me a
| ThinkPad user ever since I got my first university-issued
| laptop 21 years ago. I've had other laptops since then, and
| I've never liked any of them. Once I've got my hands in a
| comfortable position for typing on a laptop, I often have to
| move either my entire arm or my entire laptop in order to use a
| trackpad. I don't even really want my laptop to _have_ a
| trackpad, it 's just something for my palm to accidentally hit.
|
| No, it's not comfortable for extended gaming or other things
| like that, but honestly if I'm not using an external mouse for
| that I'm going to be pretty grumpy anyway.
| binkHN wrote:
| Understand completely. On some of the ThinkPads I've owned
| over the years, I've simply disabled the TrackPad.
| johnnyjeans wrote:
| This and physical mouse buttons are my bottom line for any
| laptop. Without these, I'm simply not interested in using the
| laptop, they are not optional. Good keyboard is very close 3rd
| place. I don't care about the trackpad, I don't use it. I'd
| prefer if it didn't have one at all, in fact. My ideal laptop
| is basically an IBM Thinkpad 365x with modern screen, battery,
| updated peripherals and internals.
| BanazirGalbasi wrote:
| All three physical buttons, at that. My work laptop has a
| trackpoint and the right/left click buttons, but it's missing
| the middle button that lets you scroll with the trackpoint.
| The same button works as a middle-click for pasting the
| second text buffer in Linux, which is nice to be able to rely
| on when transitioning between terminal and web windows.
| rcmjr wrote:
| If framework made a surface style device, that would be the
| perfect laptop for me.
| smallstepforman wrote:
| Real keyboard with full sized cursor keys, dedicated
| pgup/pgdn/home/end and PrintScreen keys. 2 nvme ports. 2 Usb-A
| connectors. QHD at 16:10. 32Gb, 8 true cores. AMD CPU + video
| (for Open Source geeks).
|
| Closest I ever found was HP Omen 16 Advantage Edition. Got it but
| it also has problems with trackpad, cheap speakers (B&O brand is
| meaningless), and power supply is a brick. Could use a 16:10
| display (its QHD though). 8/10.
| stncls wrote:
| > [...]
|
| > Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Nano Gen 2
|
| > [...]
|
| While there is a _lot_ to like about modern ThinkPad X1 series,
| beware that modern Intel "MIPI" webcams (like the one in this
| model) are unlikely to be convenient to use on Linux for the time
| being [1]. MIPI support _is_ coming to Linux, both kernel and
| user space, but it is highly nontrivial, and a reasonable
| estimate is two years from now [2]. Or, you can make it work
| right now, but it requires some temporary hacks [3].
|
| [1]
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Nano_(Ge...
|
| [2] https://www.spinics.net/lists/kernel/msg4467429.html
|
| [3] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=277462&p=3
| pico303 wrote:
| > another Apple can't put my finger on why this is so much better
| than everyone else things
|
| Once you've used a Mac touchpad, it's impossible to go back to a
| Windows/Linux laptop. I've tried...
| deafpolygon wrote:
| My current Lenovo laptop comes pretty close. I enjoy it a lot.
| treprinum wrote:
| Dunno, my Zenbook S UX393 has a glass touchpad as well (with
| some mini display underneath) and feels like the one on my
| MacBook but I can set up three buttons at the bottom, not just
| one. Moreover, it has 3300x2200 screen with slim bezels and
| without any insane notch and it can run Linux smoothly without
| waiting for GPU drivers to be usable.
| addisonl wrote:
| Glass stopped being the special sauce for the MacBook
| trackpads a while ago when they introduced Force Touch. Now
| you can click anywhere on the trackpad with adjustable
| "click" feedback. I'm sure yours is nice but no one comes
| close to MacBook trackpads' usability.
| Moldoteck wrote:
| I think xps 13 plus can be pretty close since they have
| force touch too. Not sure but maybe surface studio also has
| something similar
| dsego wrote:
| That's ok, but why limit triggers to button areas when
| 1-finger click anywhere on the trackpad can be left-click and
| 2-finger click anywhere can be right-click. Macs also have
| force touch for additional actions. There is probably a
| 3-finger click option as well. I don't have to know where the
| buttons are or look for them, no eyes need to be on the
| touchpad or keyboard, it's just an extension of my fingers.
| treprinum wrote:
| It's not limiting, it can be set up that way as well. But
| you have an extra option to set up 3 button behavior as
| well which is missing on MacBooks.
| dsego wrote:
| Not sure why though, feels like a gimmick to be honest.
| Why have buttons which aren't tactile so you have to look
| for them visually?
| semireg wrote:
| I turn on the 3-finger-drag accessibility option on my Mac
| trackpads. It works amazingly well. You can drag, cmd-tab,
| and even add an additional click to focus a part of an app
| without losing the drag. I'm amazed every time.
| silon42 wrote:
| Personally, I don't like it as it's too large.. and I keep
| hitting it by mistake... for a while I ran Thinkpads with a
| touchpad disabled, just using the "nub".
| stronglikedan wrote:
| I have both turned on on my thinkpad, but instinctively use
| the nub 90% of the time. I use the trackpad for scrolling and
| zooming a lot though. ANd if I'm using it on my couch, I need
| to turn the trackpad off completely, because my belly keeps
| activating it. :-/
| mike-cardwell wrote:
| _shrug_ I have an M2 Macbook for work and a Thinkpad with
| Debian for personal use. I _much_ prefer my Thinkpad 's
| pointing stick to the Macbooks touchpad.
| Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
| > Once you've used a Mac touchpad, it's impossible to go back
| to a Windows/Linux laptop. I've tried...
|
| I have the same problem, but with TrackPoints. It's impossible
| for me to use any trackpad after trying that, and that has had
| me tied to ThinkPads for the last 18 years.
| saltcured wrote:
| Me too, but I feel like I'm being slowly boiled with the
| trackpoint behavior on Fedora. I keeps changing over time and
| also being inconsistent between different devices in my
| possession.
|
| It is jarring to move between keyboards and have to
| completely recalibrate my hands to the different behavior.
| Try as I might, I can't seem to make them converge with the
| mouse/trackpoint settings controls in the GUI.
|
| The input method also does not seem to "scale" well with
| large or high-dpi screens, so even just changing resolutions
| for a work session can also disrupt the behavior on one
| single device.
| amatecha wrote:
| Yeah, it does drive me crazy using laptops without a
| TrackPoint. It is REALLY convenient and quick to use. Daily-
| driving an X230 and it's just so low-friction to work with.
| mistercheph wrote:
| I did not find this to be true.
| post-it wrote:
| > can't put my finger on why this is so much better than
| everyone else
|
| Because it doesn't move. When you press down on an Apple
| touchpad, it doesn't displace at all, it _vibrates_. This gives
| you an identical touch response across the entire trackpad,
| plus nifty things like Force Touch and customizable response
| intensity.
|
| Nobody else has done it, and it makes every other touchpad feel
| awful.
| Daneel_ wrote:
| Give me dedicated buttons for clicking, including middle
| click. God I miss the old Lenovo trackpads.
| RajT88 wrote:
| I'm just surprised that people feel so passionately about
| touchpads/trackpads.
|
| Apple can have the best one, sure, I believe it. But they
| still are bad pointing devices as a type of pointing device.
| People have gotten used to them, because what else can you
| really fit into a laptop?
| filoleg wrote:
| > But they still are bad pointing devices as a type of
| pointing device.
|
| The Apple one is so good though, it convinced me to buy
| their dedicated desktop trackpad for when my laptop is
| docked and I work on my large monitor at the desk. It got
| to the point where I prefer their trackpad for literally
| everything I do on my desktop, with games being the only
| exception. Though I am still fine and good with using a
| mouse. Trackpads on windows laptops though, it feels
| insufferable in comparison.
| karaterobot wrote:
| > because what else can you really fit into a laptop?
|
| The nipple! I have no idea what IBM actually called it, but
| that's what it was. I would take it 10 times out of 10 over
| a touchpad (which I appreciate but cannot use properly)
| lloeki wrote:
| Trackpoint
| bitwize wrote:
| Other manufacturers' trackpads are a compromise vs. having
| a mouse.
|
| Apple trackpads are a mouse _replacement_. There are
| literally people who have a Magic Trackpad instead of a
| mouse for desktop use.
|
| That's how good the Apple stuff is.
| semireg wrote:
| I haven't used a mouse since the first magic trackpads
| came out. Coincidentally, I have avoided RSI ever since
| abandoning mice and trackballs. Part of me feels that
| apple magic trackpads saved me from a lifetime of pain.
| They are that good.
| dsego wrote:
| They sell a desktop version and there are people that use
| it instead of a mouse. It supports complex gestures and
| probably causes less stress on your wrist than a mouse. I'd
| say it's on par.
| herval wrote:
| It's not a bad pointing device, that's the thing. I can use
| a Mac with a trackpad for pretty much anything, including
| image editing. It's precise, doesn't do ghost clicks/taps,
| and it's BIG
|
| I never found a non-Mac with a trackpad I could use _at
| all_. I always need a mouse to use my windows laptop...
| tstrimple wrote:
| The only time I reach for a mouse on my mac is for
| gaming. It just doesn't feel necessary or helpful
| otherwise, even when using at a desk with plenty of room.
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| Really? For example as a software dev using Linux as a
| daily driver (so no gaming), would I not need a mouse at
| all with a Mac? (considering buying one)
| dsego wrote:
| No need for a mouse at all.
| post-it wrote:
| I'm a software dev using a Macbook, and day-to-day I use
| a mouse, but this week I'm housesitting and only brought
| the laptop, and I haven't noticed any decrease in
| productivity by using just the touchpad.
|
| There's actually a few benefits, like touchpad gestures
| for app and workspace switching being much faster than
| the equivalent keyboard shortcuts.
| pmontra wrote:
| Why do you need a mouse to write software?
|
| I didn't use a mouse since at least 2006. Before that I
| was mandated to use one by the company I was working for
| but I probably didn't. Why should I lose time to move my
| hand to grab the mouse when it's already close to the
| touchpad?
|
| I connected a mouse a few times to play some casual game
| but I'm not playing games anymore on my laptop.
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| I'm a keyboard extremist myself, not wanting to touch
| even the trackpad. Still there are some things where I
| can't overcome the need to use a pointer device (some GUI
| apps etc.). It'd be nice to not worry about carrying one
| more thing (mouse) in my bag, if Mac trackpads are as
| good as they say, which they prob are.
| 0_____0 wrote:
| I've designed non-trivial mechanical components in
| Solidworks on an Intel Macbook using the trackpad. Arrow
| keys to spin the model. Having a mouse is better but the
| trackpad is much better than using a mouse on a poor
| surface while mobile.
| _ZeD_ wrote:
| Yeah try playing doom
| fredoliveira wrote:
| Hopefully you don't mean original doom, because if you
| do, boy do I have a surprise for you ;-)
| miffe wrote:
| I'm curious what the surprise is? Is og doom actually
| playable with a trackpad?
| braymundo wrote:
| Keyboard only.
| mrob wrote:
| False. The installer lets you choose between keyboard
| only, keyboard + mouse, and keyboard + joystick.
|
| According to John Romero, keyboard + mouse was intended:
|
| https://twitter.com/romero/status/473587688977596416
| pmontra wrote:
| Wasn't that keyboard only?
| mrob wrote:
| Mouse was always the best way to play. Doom comes with
| demo files that are obviously recorded using mouse, and
| the manual clearly recommends using it. It also supports
| keyboard only play, but this is in no way the "intended"
| method.
| RajT88 wrote:
| These days, even mice annoy me. Trackball or bust.
|
| Trackpads _are_ better than touchscreen interfaces
| though.
| jwells89 wrote:
| I find touchscreens fine in the right form factor
| (handheld, mainly), but I'll never get the appeal of a
| touchscreen on a device running a desktop OS. Reaching up
| to touch a laptop screen feels awkward and laptop screens
| are some of the worst when it comes to rejecting
| fingerprints.
| themadturk wrote:
| Plus, even if the manufacturer gets on board with an OS
| that is truly touch-friendly on a laptop, getting all the
| software manufacturers to _also_ update their UIs for
| touch will be a long, long haul, I 'm afraid.
| amatecha wrote:
| I actually thought the trackpad was better with an actual
| physical click. To me the versions immediately prior to
| making it a stationary piece of glass was basically the best
| trackpad I've ever used in my life. It's disappointing how no
| other laptop manufacturer comes even close. I approach every
| single new laptop like "okay, is this finally the one that
| even compares?" and EVERY TIME I am like "wow, yup, it's been
| this many years and still not even close"...
| goosedragons wrote:
| Steam Deck has TWO!
| herval wrote:
| Steam Deck's little trackpads are pretty amazing, can
| confirm!
| RandallBrown wrote:
| Even before Apple did that their trackpads were dramatically
| better.
| dsego wrote:
| The t480s on linux is not bad for pointing and dragging,
| multi finger gestures of course aren't close. I could live
| with it. But on windows, clicking is totally broken, if
| your finger moves just slightly (and it does, since it's
| hinged), the click isn't registered. The gestures are a
| joke, since they just play out an animation instead of
| locking onto the finger motion.
| ndiddy wrote:
| There's a company called Sensel that makes vibrating
| trackpads similar to Apple's, Lenovo has been putting them in
| some of their Thinkpad laptops. https://sensel.com/
| mrob wrote:
| I've used a Mac touchpad, and IMO it's pretty much the same as
| every other touchpad: so dramatically worse than a real mouse
| that I'll do everything possible to avoid using it. Of course,
| there may be differences in degrees of badness, but I'm never
| going to notice, because if I really can't manage with keyboard
| shortcuts I'll just plug in an external mouse.
| not_alexb wrote:
| I have an M1 and several thinkpads and the M1 always feels like
| such a chore to use, so no, not even remotely in my case.
| coufu wrote:
| According to the article, the shortcomings of the M1 Macs is
| they can't run any operating system, so there you go.
| eptcyka wrote:
| I concur, except for the battery life. For the life of me, I
| cannot get a gen 2 X13 with AMD to last.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| I have a cheap Lenovo Chromebook ($140 MSRP) and the trackpad
| is nearly as good as an Apple one when running ChromeOS. So
| it's definitely possible for a cheap machine to have a good
| trackpad. Why does everything else suck so badly?
|
| Is it just the drivers?
| CarVac wrote:
| I tried one the other day at an Apple store.
|
| The click feedback is too weak, and the stepless acceleration
| is not what my brain expects, so I found it frustrating.
| jkingsman wrote:
| You can customize the intensity of the click feedback as it's
| not actually a click but a linear actuator tapping back at
| your finger from the other side.
|
| Mouse acceleration intensity and curve are editable as well.
|
| Perfectly fine for it to not be your cup of tea, but there is
| some customizability.
| dsego wrote:
| One thing that it's brilliant at is dragging, you press down on
| an icon with the index finger and drag around with the middle
| finger by just touching, while keeping the index pressed. It
| works beautifully once you're used to the motion. You don't
| have to keep the index pressed and drag it at the same time.
| sonofhans wrote:
| Apple's been making better trackpads literally forever, and
| better drivers, too. I run Windows on an iMac Pro (for gaming)
| and sometimes use an Apple Magic Trackpad. It's _dramatically_
| worse in Windows than in MacOS.
|
| So, as usual, it's not just that Apple makes better hardware.
| They do -- their trackpads have always been more precise. But
| the software interpreting signals from that hardware is much
| better as well.
|
| In Windows I get more accidental touches turned to clicks;
| pinch-to-zoom is less reliable; taps are often misinterpreted
| or missed.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| Thankfully, Linux touchpad drivers have been great for
| several years now.
| strzibny wrote:
| It's better to have TrainPoint than a slightly better touchpad.
| That's my take:)
| dhruvmittal wrote:
| I've very happily left a Mac touchpad. Not once but twice.
| While the gesture support in the OS is nice, I don't like how
| big the touchpads are. I feel like it regularly gets in the way
| of typing. I'm okay with the size of the trackpad on the
| Framework laptop, but it could have been smaller. I really miss
| my old Thinkpad trackpad with the physical buttons between the
| trackpad and spacebar, which I felt was really usable.
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| For me it's not about how big it is. The MacBook trackpads
| feel very precise. I rarely mis-click a part of my screen
| because my cursor drifted too far.
| tibbon wrote:
| Same. Even clicking, alone right clicking, is super awkward
| for some reason on my partner's computer (I can't recall
| the brand, Asus or such). On my mac, it seems flawless.
| ArchOversight wrote:
| Apple's touch detection for when you place your hands on the
| touchpad while typing is top-notch though.
|
| It's what allows them to make the touchpad so big, while
| still making the keyboard easily accessible.
| _ZeD_ wrote:
| I assure you that's not true
| PhileasNietzche wrote:
| It's billed as a gaming laptop, but I'd say that the ROG Flow X13
| fits the bill as well as any 13" laptop could in 2023.
| hamandcheese wrote:
| System76 comes very close for me, but they use 16:9 panels :(
|
| X1 carbon would be perfect if the would simply match the battery
| size of the MacBook.
| scrlk wrote:
| Unconventional choice: Panasonic Let's Note.
|
| Sadly JDM exclusive and has soldered RAM, but the latest models
| come with a 3:2 display, decent I/O (e.g. RJ45, full sized SD
| card reader, even VGA (!)), magnesium alloy chassis and a
| removable battery in a sub 1.1 kg package. Can't speak for the
| quality of the trackpad or keyboard though.
|
| https://panasonic.jp/cns/pc/
| soared wrote:
| Circular trackpad my goodness! I'll also never go back to
| metal/plastic handrests on a trackpad after using whatever
| material is on a pixelbook and the crazy fabric-esque option on
| a ms surface - huge game changer.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Back in the 90s and 00s, Panasonic had some really great
| hardware designs
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Right around the turn of the century, the Japanese brands
| were all great designs. I haven't seen one for sale in the US
| in a long time though.
| SamReidHughes wrote:
| The trackpads are great (assuming new models are similar to
| past models), and the keyboards are IMO very good, but watch
| out for the squashed key dimensions on the SR and QR, and the
| Japanese layout.
| scrlk wrote:
| The 12.x" models occasionally make it in to other APAC
| markets with US ANSI keyboards: https://ap.connect.panasonic.
| com/sg/en/products/toughbook/to...
|
| Shame that they are not more widely available.
| SamReidHughes wrote:
| I didn't know they were still doing it! But it's
| disappointing that it doesn't have the optical drive.
|
| But I see you can buy the English keyboard on eBay.
| RalfWausE wrote:
| Personally, i have found my perfect laptop: The Thinkpad R60,
| though ancient is - for the things I do - simply perfect. It runs
| really good with various BSD systems (and of course Linux), has
| an easily changeable battery, a - in my opinion - great keyboard,
| is repair- service and (modeartely) upgradeable. I have mine now
| for over a decade and will keep it running as long as spare parts
| are available. Will i ever buy a successor? Maybe... but (besides
| possibly the MNT Reform) i have not found anything which trigger
| the "must have" reflex in me.
| samuell wrote:
| The Asus ExpertBook B9 (12th gen Intel) I got from work, and now
| running Linux Mint on, is the closest thing to this spec I've
| experienced.
|
| I love the sub-1kg weight and paper thin feel despite being a
| 14". The first laptop I comfortably use in my lap.
|
| Only annoyance is the random short bursts of (low) fan usage,
| even on light load. Been able to fix the worst with pinning the
| max frequency down while doing light work, but looking to find a
| way to program it better. I would prefer a constant low fan use
| much more than these constant turning on and offs.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| The perfect laptop (objectively) is the 15" 2015 RMBP. For those
| few glorious years Apple had a keyboard better than even the old
| Thinkpads. I'd give anything for that chassis/keyboard combo with
| an M2 chip in it.
| xcv123 wrote:
| You got downvoted because M1/M2 MBP 16" has practically the
| same keyboard and chassis as 2015. I own both (2015 and 2021).
| The keyboard is much better than 2016-2020
| jbarham wrote:
| I have a ThinkPad X1 Carbon Gen 9 and I'm very happy with it.
| It's fast, quiet, absurdly light, has a 16:10 screen, a decent
| selection of ports and the famously good ThinkPad keyboard. I
| dual boot Windows and Ubuntu without any issues. For me it's the
| perfect laptop.
| ElectronBadger wrote:
| For me it's my ThinkPad T14 with Ryzen 5 PRO 4650U and 22 GB of
| RAM. Before it I had Macbook Pro and Macbook Air.
| twic wrote:
| > the body of a 12" laptop
|
| I've always owned 15" laptops, and i've never had any trouble
| fitting them in bags, even in a sleeve. I understand why people
| might want 7" or 10" netbooks, but a 12" machine just seems like
| a waste of space to me. I understand that most people feel very
| differently, though!
|
| > webcam that doesn't make it look like your laptop (or you) are
| a potato during a videoconference
|
| And also doesn't look up your nose - my XPS 15 has the camera
| underneath the monitor, and it's terrible.
|
| > a great keyboard, look to the 2008-11 era ThinkPads for
| inspiration
|
| Keyboards are one of those things where tastes vary so much. I
| dislike every ThinkPad keyboard i've tried. Maybe we need
| interchangeable keyboards, with various styles available?
|
| > a useful number of ports
|
| Interested to see that ethernet doesn't make the cut. I
| definitely appreciate having that without having to bedongle the
| machine.
|
| How about adding:
|
| - Ability to charge from USB-PD
|
| Or is that a given these days?
| LorenDB wrote:
| Power delivery should absolutely come on every device, period.
| dayvid wrote:
| Really depends on how much time you spend working portable or
| not. 14" seems like the best compromise for me on power,
| portability and screen size. 15" is a little big and the
| lightweight 15" laptops feel a little too flimsy at times.
|
| I bought a used Thinkpad 220 and it's a cool little swiss army
| type of device. The keyboard is VERY different from modern
| thinkpads. More tactile and a lot of cool features. Would be
| interesting with a technical update. I think the Japanese
| Panasonic Let's Note may be the closest modern equivalent.
| jwells89 wrote:
| I believe the primary appeal of a 12" laptop is that it's the
| smallest that one can make a laptop while still having a full
| size keyboard. Any smaller and you have to start shrinking
| keys, which has strong negative effects on usability.
|
| This is part of why the 12" MacBook and its spiritual ancestor,
| the 12" PowerBook G4 were popular.
| p1necone wrote:
| If you do a lot of walking around, using public transport etc.
| And you tend to want to pull your laptop out and use it in
| places where you maybe don't have a proper desk/table to put it
| on then having a really small laptop can be really nice.
|
| I remember loving my ~8 inch netbook during university. With
| virtual desktops it was more than adequate for coding projects
| even if the best seat I could find was on the floor against a
| wall.
|
| The added rigidity feels good too, even something really
| cheaply built out of plastic will have little to no flex, and
| probably survive being dropped at that size.
| zerocrates wrote:
| I had one of those XPS machines (though a 13) where the webcam
| was in the "chin" under the screen, and also not in the center
| horizontally. I basically never used it.
|
| Their later designs have crammed it in at top-center as is more
| typical.
| joe5150 wrote:
| A high-quality wifi card and software is more valuable to me
| than ethernet ports, which are so bulky that I don't especially
| care if they come built in. The Framework approach here is
| ideal.
| yabones wrote:
| > I've always owned 15" laptops, and i've never had any trouble
| fitting them in bags, even in a sleeve. I understand why people
| might want 7" or 10" netbooks, but a 12" machine just seems
| like a waste of space to me. I understand that most people feel
| very differently, though!
|
| I've settled on the 12" size, mostly because it's the smallest
| viable laptop that you can still type on. If you look at the
| ThinkPad X201 [1] as an example from the post, the device is
| the exact width of the keyboard with no bezel. So, you could
| have an 11" or smaller device, but it would mean sacrificing a
| lifetime of typing muscle memory to do so.
|
| [1] https://images.anandtech.com/doci/3822/lenovo_x201.JPG
| saghm wrote:
| > I've always owned 15" laptops, and i've never had any trouble
| fitting them in bags, even in a sleeve. I understand why people
| might want 7" or 10" netbooks, but a 12" machine just seems
| like a waste of space to me. I understand that most people feel
| very differently, though!
|
| In my freshman year of college, I still hadn't gotten a
| smartphone yet due to being on my parents' phone plan still,
| but since there was wifi everywhere on campus, I used to carry
| around a Nexus 7 tablet everywhere. I could literally fit the
| 7" tablet in my pocket, which always seemed to take people by
| surprise. I think 7" is a lot smaller than some people realize;
| I don't think I could even type comfortably with both hands on
| a netbook that small!
| michaelteter wrote:
| I downsized from a 15" MBP to a 13" M1 Air, and I haven't felt
| much pain from the smaller screen. My approach to IDE-driven
| development is about the same on both. The big difference is
| solo laptop vs laptop+external monitor(s).
|
| As someone who travels frequently, the M1 Air has been simply
| amazing. It's so small and sturdy, and fairly light compared to
| the bigger/bulkier/heavier 15 I had before... and I'm at far
| less risk of breaking the screen while it's in my bag.
|
| The bigger machines have a much greater surface area which the
| contents of the backpack can put pressure against. So the
| larger screen laptops are more susceptible to being pressed too
| hard near the middle of their screens and breaking.
|
| I wish there were some ultra-rigid screen backs which would
| eliminate that concern. I don't need something as serious as a
| Panasonic Toughbook, but something with some arched curved
| ridges to add strength would be nice.
| ghaff wrote:
| Over the years, I've gone back and forth on laptop size. I
| used an 11" (?) Asus Chromebook for my light-duty travel
| laptop for ages but there really isn't a high-quality
| substitute these days and, honestly, I'm hard-put to complain
| too much about my 14" MacBook Pro and, if I did as much
| travel as I used to, I'd just get a MacBook Pro Air. At one
| level I wish they still made a smaller model but, honestly,
| when you add up the weight of chargers and other associated
| electronics, the difference isn't much and the keyboard on a
| 13" laptop is pretty much what I want.
| zadjii wrote:
| I kinda followed a similar trajectory. Started with a 15" MBP
| (2011) for years, and was super happy with that. It was a
| beast. But it was also a tank of a laptop.
|
| Then I got a Surface Pro 3. It was FAR more portable, enough
| to make me realize just how much less portable my MBP was. I
| couldn't bear to bring the 15" back out. However, the SP3 was
| definitely too small of a screen for dedicated work. Great
| for college & notetaking, but reliant on external displays.
|
| Now I've been using a 13" surface laptop for a few years and
| that's really struck me as the right portability vs
| productivity balance. 13 inches is big enough for two columns
| of code, and fits in basically any backpack pouch easy. I
| probably won't be going back to 15" when this dies.
| hot_gril wrote:
| > Ability to charge from USB-PD
|
| Not a given on the Thinkpads the author mentions as being near-
| perfect, which are known to get perma-bricked using PD from a
| charger while plugged into a monitor also providing PD:
| https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkPad-X-Series-Laptops/X1-Ca...
|
| 2016-2019 MBPs also had an issue with PD on the left side
| causing thermal throttling.
| nicbou wrote:
| My 12 inch Macbook is half the weight of a 15 inch model of the
| same year. That's almost a kilo less in your bicycle bag or
| backpack. It's very noticeable, especially if you're always on
| the go, but not always between desks.
| phaedrus13 wrote:
| I've picked up the Samsung Galaxy book Pro or whatever it is, in
| 16" - and it pretty much checks all these boxes.
|
| Fullsize HDMI, 16:10 screen, headphone jack, sd card reader, USB
| C and USB A, large touchpad, keyboard is quite good (for me),
| screen is AMOLED (glossy but nice), battery life is quite good (I
| get about 6 hours of medium use), it's quite thin with small
| bezels,fans are a bit noisy but it's not something I care about,
| SSD is upgradeable (plus another slot for expansion/dual boot),
| RAM is soldered unfortunately, webcam is good, mics are good.
| Linux support is getting better, originally it was useless but
| after a few kernel updates it works quite well. Fingerprint
| reader doesn't work on Linux though.
| mrtedbear wrote:
| I concur with the article. I recently got a ThinkPad X13 gen 2
| (AMD) in one of Lenovo's heavily discounted sales. It was a
| pleasant surprise to discover how great a laptop it is,
| especially considering the price.
| benbenolson wrote:
| I bought a first-generation Framework a couple of years ago, and
| it's been perfect for me. I don't especially need a thin/light
| laptop, but what I care about is that it's snappy and sturdy, has
| a nice keyboard, and can be repaired to last long-term (like the
| Thinkpad T430 that it replaced). The Framework fits the bill on
| those fronts, so it earns a long-term position on my nightstand.
| gorjusborg wrote:
| I also have a first gen Framework.
|
| I've used the following recently:
|
| - Framework 1st gen - Dell XPS 13 - Macbook Pro 14" (m1) - Dell
| Precision 5570
|
| I wouldn't say that the framework is perfect, there are a
| number of minor complaints I have with it.
|
| However, it holds its own, and I really do love it, especially
| while running linux.
|
| I hope that Framework the company continues to support the
| early models with new mainboards and parts. If so, I'll be a
| very loyal customer.
|
| Oh, and the fact that I know I'll be able to replace the
| battery when the time comes is a beautiful feeling!
| blauditore wrote:
| >excellent build quality
|
| I keep hearing this, also for phones, and people usually
| associate it with certain materials.
|
| Why? I'd rather have a light plastic laptop/phone that works
| well, is light, and survives a few hits than an overpriced piece
| of fashion. Bonus points for phones with cracked backs because
| glass "feels more valuable".
|
| Of course I understand the value of e.g. good hinges, keyboards
| etc., but pretty sure that's not what people are generally
| referring to.
| jsight wrote:
| I agree. TBH, I've been really happy with the build quality of
| the Lenovo P1. It isn't the prettiest design, but it is solid.
| karaterobot wrote:
| It looks to me like you're thinking of "build quality" as
| mostly esthetic rather than functional. I think when most
| people describe build quality, they _are_ talking about good
| hinges, keyboards, and the ability to survive a few hits.
| fragmede wrote:
| Yes, good hinges are probably the second most important thing
| when looking at build quality, second only to the keyboard.
| Do I have to gingerly baby the laptop when I pick it up to
| move it in order for it to last me 5-10 years, or can I man-
| handle the thing, and just pick it up by the screen, and
| still have a laptop that can open and stay open at a specific
| angle, and that will still close all the way without creaking
| and threatening to break 5-10 years down the line.
| paxys wrote:
| > Of course I understand the value of e.g. good hinges,
| keyboards etc., but pretty sure that's not what people are
| generally referring to.
|
| When people say good build quality what else do you think they
| are referring to?
| chazeon wrote:
| One good plastic build that people praise about is Valve's
| Steamdeck
| mey wrote:
| While the Steamdeck has a plastic shell (which is nice but
| not a luxury, expected at it's price target) it has a
| magnesium subframe.
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4T0RZ6ustKQ
| 6D794163636F756 wrote:
| But that's also a more niche audience. The people who've
| bought a steam deck (myself included) are more likely to care
| about, and know about, hardware. When selling to an audience
| that can't evaluate the build quality as easily you have to
| rely on shorthand. One common shorthand is that plastic
| things are bad build quality
| jwells89 wrote:
| When it comes to laptops, plastic exteriors are often a signal
| that the machine is lower end with as minimal of an internal
| frame as the manufacturer can get away with, which means that
| it'll have extreme body flex which is bad for motherboard
| longevity. It also means that the laptop will probably squeak
| and creak when picked up and handled which subjectively feels
| cheap, and doesn't bode well for the laptop being able to take
| a tumble.
|
| There are exceptions like the older ThinkPads which had robust
| frames under their plastic, but this is not typical.
| grecy wrote:
| I bought my current MacBook Pro, used, in 2016.
|
| I drove it 54,000 miles around Africa on the worst roads in the
| world, using it every day in the heat, humidity, dust and sun.
| I drove it 30,000+ miles around North America using it heavily.
| I drove it 36,000 miles around Australia, using it at least 30
| hours a week in the dust, heat, sun, etc.
|
| It's had many dings and bashes and a few drops.
|
| It still works great, and I've never repaired a thing on it.
| The charger has duct tape on the worn cables, and battery life
| is down to about 3 hours with light use and less than an hour
| editing HD video.
|
| That's what I'm looking for.
| slingnow wrote:
| Since when is "miles driven around" a good indicator of build
| quality for a laptop? Your laptop isn't a car. There's no
| odometer on it.
| grecy wrote:
| I was using that to show how beat up it has been, the
| conditions it has had to endure and the amount of use it
| has had.
|
| I think it's safe to say a laptop has to be pretty tough to
| handle what mine has been through, compared to one that
| sits on a desk, or commutes to/from work in a backpack.
| pmontra wrote:
| Not all miles are created equal. Surviving the vibrations
| of some African and Australian roads is testament to a
| solid build. Of cars too.
| GloriousKoji wrote:
| Meanwhile my (new in) 2016 macbook pro overheats if I plug
| the charging cable in the wrong side, have a bunch of keys
| that don't register and only moved a total of maybe 300 feet
| after reaching the office.
| getpokedagain wrote:
| Exactly. I don't care how it's built I care that it survives
| some daily use that is not sitting on a desk.
|
| My job many years ago provided me a Lenovo x220. I used to
| haul that thing from NJ to Arkansas with me twice a year and
| all over. It was not pretty but it literally took anything I
| could give it.
|
| My current M1 MacBook Air goes with me on my bicycle daily,
| goes camping and goes everywhere with no issues.
|
| My Starlabs linux "star lite" laptop had screws back out of
| it the first time I took it on my bicycle. After replacing
| screws over and over and eventually taping them in place to
| avoid the hassle the display stopped working. After fixing
| the cable for this eventually my keyboard began acting up and
| now the machine is just a desktop. Mind you this was in about
| 1.5 years.
| zinxq wrote:
| Everyone should experience the x220 keyboard. It's probably
| the best laptop keyboard I've experienced.
|
| The x230 onward is also extremely good.
|
| The trick for me is key travel. I bought a new Thinkpad
| that had 1.3mm of travel and instantly hated it. 1.5mm
| feels so so much better (not to mention 1.8mm). No new
| thinkpads have above 1.3mm I believe (in the pursuit of
| thinness).
| jerf wrote:
| "Why?"
|
| I'd suspect it is related to the thinness push. I share with
| the author a lack of need for my laptop to shave every last
| millimeter off, and I've had sturdy plastic laptops in the
| past... but those laptops are from many years ago now. Shaving
| every millimeter and still feeling solid requires non-plastic.
|
| chazeon observes the Steam Deck feels quite solid, and I'd
| agree, but it is also definitely a device that isn't shaving
| millimeters. Compared to the Switch it is quite the chonk. But
| it also feels solid. So does the Switch, but the Switch does it
| with metal.
| marcellus23 wrote:
| > pretty sure that's not what people are generally referring
| to.
|
| What makes you think that? That's what I (and I assume others)
| are referring to. I.E. actual practical quality of the build.
| jasoneckert wrote:
| Most of what the author describes as features of the perfect
| laptop can be found in the Tadpole SPARCbook (new technology
| excepted): https://jasoneckert.github.io/myblog/sparcbook3000st-
| the-coo...
| pmontra wrote:
| $21,000. Wow!
| whispersnow wrote:
| Always loved Thinkpad as a student, until it became Lenovo
| uncletaco wrote:
| For me the perfect laptop was actually the Chromebook Pixel LS
| from 2015. Retina 3:2 touchscreen display in a 13in aluminum
| shell with a really good trackpad, usb-c, and built in webcam.
| Could be configured with 16GB of RAM though the ssd topped out at
| 64GB, but it was a laptop, I wasn't going to be storing games or
| media on it.
|
| However that generation of the Chromebook Pixel had a defect of
| some sort where the adhesives in the screen breakdown after about
| 6-7 years and leak into the display, causing discoloration. In
| fact if you have one of these and have left it untouched for a
| good amount of time you should check it, there's probably
| adhesive that has leaked onto the keyboard.
|
| This single incident where my favorite laptop is basically
| unusable after 6-7 years with no way to raid another one for a
| spare display (they _all_ have this problem, and their display
| isn 't interchangeable with the 2013 model)is why I'm an even
| bigger proponent of right to repair and easily upgradeable or
| interchangeable parts. If I had my way of things, I'd simply open
| up the computer every few years and replace the motherboard with
| something more modern but keep the shell. If I knew how to design
| motherboards or replace laptop displays without completely
| destroying or scratching the chassis I would. Watching the screen
| slowly discolor and turn to a milky blue is almost like watching
| a beloved dog get old and develop cataracts.
| wanda wrote:
| Get an IBM ThinkPad 380XD, swap out the screen for a Chromebook
| Pixel's 2560x1600 screen, then swap the board out for the Macbook
| M2's silicon along with as much RAM and as many ports as you can
| fit in the chassis.
|
| Port Windows 2000 to it, hit me up and name your price.
| causality0 wrote:
| My addition to the list would be "real mouse buttons so I can
| tell where the damn right-click is".
| Nezghul wrote:
| So you don't like when cursor is moving on click?
| causality0 wrote:
| I find it infuriating. I have no idea how people live with
| those things. There's no reason you can't have buttons below
| a clickpad. It's like they just hate precision and users
| being able to right click without moving their thumb.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| So basically a MacBook with a folding or rollable screen
| darthrupert wrote:
| And without being (practically) forced to use MacOS.
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| There is one more possible drawback and it is business continuity
| or long term support (macOS and Windows by default and Linux for
| both (Apple eventually will have great Linux support)) and while
| Lenovo and Apple seem that they will be on the market for the
| considerable future we can't surmise that The Framework will be.
| bee_rider wrote:
| I was initially annoyed at the lack of a headphone jack on my
| laptop, but USB-C to headphone dongles are very common and good
| enough for portable use. For desk use, might as well get a
| devoted DAC/AMP. So, I think they are a waste of space now.
|
| Webcams are a waste of bezel space, might as well get a non-junk
| USB one. Plus you can position it for shots other than up your
| nose.
|
| Give me like 8 USB-C ports and nothing else.
|
| 16:10 is OK but if we're going for Perfect Laptop, obviously 4:3
| is the correct aspect ratio.
|
| The current Apple Bluetooth magic keyboards are fine, use that
| (with a non wireless interface of course).
|
| These opinions are my own but they are also objectively correct.
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| I used to feel the same way about headphone jacks on phones.
|
| Then I tried a cheap external dongle, the Ifi Go Link. It's
| fantastic and I'd never go back to the crap they put into the
| phone.
| shafoshaf wrote:
| I've tried really hard to understand the outrage of not having
| a 3.5 mm headphone jack. I have Bose wired headphones and just
| use a dongle on the plane with my phone and tablet. My Laptop
| does have a jack, but it would be no big deal to use a dongle.
| I guess I'm just not an audiophile, but I doubt that many
| people are.
|
| +1 to 8 USB-Cs!
| bee_rider wrote:
| I think it isn't audiophiles because they'd have an external
| DAC/AMP anyway.
|
| Speaking for myself, I just had a strong attachment to my
| sort of middle-of-the-road headphones (Sennheiser HD380 pro).
| I don't think anyone could reasonably call them audiophile.
| But they were expensive "to me" on a student budget, so I was
| worried/annoyed that somebody would mess with my (in
| retrospect quite limited) "investment."
| dot5xdev wrote:
| The outrage comes from having to carry both the wired
| headphones AND the dongle. The dongle is small and easy to
| lose. It's much harder to lose your headphones.
| betimsl wrote:
| It won't quench your thirst. But it exists, here you go:
| https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x230/
| charlie0 wrote:
| My perfect laptop is the M1. The thing I love the most is the
| screen. I've installed Lunar and can use XDR mode to take the
| screen to peak brightness. It really makes a big difference
| watching content or working in a brightly lit area.
| alchemist1e9 wrote:
| Anyone put Linux on a Lenovo Slim Pro 7 and have any opinions?
|
| https://www.pcworld.com/article/1797659/lenovo-slim-pro-7-re...
| alexgaribay wrote:
| I have the older version with the 6900HS but it's more or less
| the same. I've run pop_os as well as fedora on it. Everything
| works great but you'll have to compile the wifi driver
| https://github.com/lwfinger/rtw89.
| alchemist1e9 wrote:
| Thank you! Was hoping to learn people are doing it.
|
| I'm mainly interested in it having the Nvidia RTX 3050 6GB as
| mobile GPU for hw encoding and decoding and some CUDA.
|
| Have you run into any problems with their fancy power modes
| or mixing onboard AMD graphics and the NVIDIA card?
| alexgaribay wrote:
| Surprisingly it has been smooth. Power modes work as you
| would expect even across OSes. I always run the graphics
| mode in hybrid mode to I'm using the integrated chip 90% of
| the time until something really needs the 3050. In Gnome,
| you can explicitly launch an application using the dGPU or
| you can set the environment variables on the application
| shortcut to always use the dGPU.
| trashcanman wrote:
| Another article shilling framework. You can't compare framework
| laptops to a Macbook. Like a gocart vs a Tesla.
|
| However I just bought a $200 Thinkpad T490s on ebay w24GB of
| memory, as light as a MBA and maybe 6hr battery life. Very very
| nice machine after a few firmware updates and an Ubuntu install
| it's paid for itself on day 2. That's the best bang for your
| buck. And it came w warranty and like new. Mind blown.
|
| But, nothing compares to the new 15 inch MBA. That is hands down
| the best laptop made in the history of the Earth
| TranquilMarmot wrote:
| I have an i7 Framework and an M1 Macbook that were built around
| the same time in 2021. I love the _idea_ of the Framework (and
| I prefer Windows to macOS) but you're right that comparing them
| isn't really fair. The Macbook has longer battery life, is
| faster, and is QUIETER.
|
| I do a lot of game development and doing it on the Framework,
| the bottom of it gets so hot that you can't touch it and it
| feels like it's going to burn my lap. The fan sounds like a
| small plane taking off and absolutely blasts out hot air. The
| battery only lasts ~2 hours.
|
| Exact same workload on the M1 Macbook and the fan doesn't even
| spin up. The battery lasts probably 6 hours. You can put it
| comfortably on your lap.
|
| I don't blame Framework here; I love the laptop but I don't
| think that a Windows/Linux machine can compete with Apple
| Silicon. ARM is just so much better for a laptop.
| dtx1 wrote:
| > But, nothing compares to the new 15 inch MBA. That is hands
| down the best laptop made in the history of the Earth
|
| Hitchens's razor applies. It's certainly not the best laptop to
| play video games. Or to use outdoors in rough weather. Or...
| willsmith72 wrote:
| Can you expand on the using it outdoors part? I work outside
| a lot but have never thought about that when choosing a
| laptop
| dtx1 wrote:
| There are rugged notebooks you can use in the rain or under
| extreme conditions like this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=
| 7dpdqO1EZK0&pp=ygUUbHR0IG91dGR...
|
| Try using "best laptop made in the history of the Earth"
| for 10 minutes in the rain and see what happens
| bnprks wrote:
| At the time I bought my Framework, I paid $1,200 for a DIY
| edition including 3rd party purchase of 32GB RAM and 1TB SSD
| (Samsung 980 Pro). The cheapest Apple laptop that can be
| configured to those RAM and storage specs is the 14" Macbook
| Pro at $2,600. The 15" MBA cannot even be configured with 32GB
| RAM, is heavier than the 13" Framework, and I believe still
| only supports a single external monitor compared to Framework's
| 4.
|
| I guess it comes down to personal preference, but for me the
| Framework was plenty good enough and definitely worth the >2x
| cost savings.
| trashcanman wrote:
| Macbooks use unified memory and ARM SoCs and substantially
| outperform Intel machines with nearly double the battery
| life. The MBAs can use two external displays either 4k@120 or
| 6k@60. There's also a big usability difference between a 15
| and 13 inch display. My MBA 15 w 16GB memory 70W charger and
| 512GB SSD (you need that for the full speed IO) cost me under
| $1500, granted w the educational discount. I also got $150
| gift card, which I used to buy a discounted iPad Pro and then
| I got another $100 gift card again. So Apple is pricey sure
| but still very affordable. I think framework laptops are a
| gimmick but to each their own
| jna_sh wrote:
| What are you talking about? Being one item, and not even the
| first, in a bullet-pointed list at the bottom of the article is
| hardly "shilling". Outside of that, Framework aren't mentioned.
| uncletaco wrote:
| I'm pretty sure the previous poster and those continuing the
| argument about Framework laptops didn't read the article
| fully because shortlisting it as a potential upgrade among
| other options is no where near shilling.
| trashcanman wrote:
| Yes but it's the only item on the list with a link and really
| shouldn't be on the list at all. A laptop with a two hour
| battery is a long way from perfect. I've seen too many of
| these articles for this to be a coincidence. Pretty sure it's
| a PR campaign or paid influencers.
| p1necone wrote:
| Yes, I imagine the framework mostly got a mention because
| it's one of the vanishingly few laptops available with a 3:2
| screen, along with it being generally built well. The article
| didn't even talk about it, just put it on a list.
| robgibbons wrote:
| HP EliteBooks are pretty solid. I have a few G7's in different
| sizes and dual boot on all of them. The 840 is probably the
| perfect size, 14" 16:10 screen, plenty of ports, excellent
| keyboard, fully upgradable SSD and RAM, and overall great build
| quality.
| nicbou wrote:
| I bought a 12" Macbook last year because my 15" is too heavy to
| lug around. It's so light that I forget that it's there. I spent
| months on the road with it. At home I would just plug it into my
| USB-C monitor and use a keyboard and Magic Trackpad.
|
| Unfortunately it's too slow to play YouTube Music in the
| background, especially if Docker is also running.
|
| I would buy an M2 version in a heartbeat if Apple made them. I
| recently bit the bullet and got an M2 Air. It's a lovely machine
| that's better in every respect, but it's 30% heavier, and I can
| feel that every time I take it with me.
|
| A 900 gram laptop that charges with a phone charger is just
| incredible to have.
| thazework wrote:
| Recently took my 12 inch MacBook on a multi day hiking trip (it
| survived!). Anything heavier would have been a nightmare.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Why did you need a laptop while hiking?
| willis936 wrote:
| I don't like that Lenovo is put shoulder to shoulder with Apple
| here. I have never personally owned a macbook, but my SO has and
| they are multiple classes above anything Lenovo has made in the
| past decade. My work gives me a P1 and I liked it for the first
| year (especially with that mobile xeon with every ISA extension
| on the block), but I am growing tired of it. Here is the short
| list: the touchpad drops out, blue screens, thunderbolt dock
| driver issues, docked displays needing to be unplugged/replugged
| multiple times, waking from sleep mode without my input (good
| reason to never use this for a laptop that is used on the road),
| failure to wake from sleep mode (full speed fan and black screen
| until the power button is held for 30 seconds), the laptop
| deciding to say "locking" for a split second then going to sleep
| while you are in the middle of working or presenting.
|
| Macbooks are not perfect, but lenovos are not good.
| mistercheph wrote:
| Every single issue you mention has to do with Microsoft's
| Windows, including the touchpad drop outs that are likely W11
| palm detection.
| inertiatic wrote:
| I've had almost the exact same list of problems on my Dell
| XPS 13 running Linux.
| filoleg wrote:
| At the end of the day, it doesn't matter to the end user
| whether it is due to the OS maker or the hardware
| manufacturer.
|
| That distinction would only matter if the comparison was
| limited to Windows laptops only, because that would establish
| a baseline that is the same for every single option. Some
| people want nothing to do with any OS outside of Windows, and
| that't their choice, nothing wrong with that. Once Windows-
| only limitation is gone, that distinction becomes kinda
| pointless.
| willis936 wrote:
| Probably not that since it's running W10.
| wishfish wrote:
| For me, the smaller the better. I'm fortunate enough to do most
| of my real work at a desktop setting, so I'd like the laptop to
| be as portable as possible.
|
| With that in mind, in terms of pure form factor, the Asus Flip
| Chromebook (2015) was about as close to perfect as possible.
| Sure, its processor was anemic even at release. I'd want a higher
| quality screen. But the keyboard was very good by my standards.
| The 10 inch screen was the perfect size and was 16:10. Weighed
| around 1.8 pounds (0.82 kg). If I could have that form factor
| with modern tech, I'd be in heaven.
|
| Second favorite is the current iteration of the iPad Mini. If I
| could get that with an M1 or M2, full MacOS, then I'd be happier
| than (insert metaphor here).
|
| Third favorite was the 2015 Macbook. I'd wish for a better
| keyboard and more ports, but overall the form factor & weight was
| extremely good. Would be stellar with a modern Mac kb and Apple
| Silicon.
|
| Fourth fave was a tiny Sony Vaio from 2000. Forget the model name
| / number. Also under 2 pounds with a 10 inch screen. Honorable
| mention to the Asus Eee of 2008. Screen was too small but
| otherwise it was a perfect size & weight.
|
| I guess I'll have to try a GPD laptop one of these days. They
| seem to be among the only ones providing tiny & small laptops.
| BizarroLand wrote:
| I'm of a different opinion. My current daily driver is a Lenovo
| Gaming laptop running Pop OS (I was running Fedora on it but
| due to the redhat drama I'm distro hopping to find a suitable
| replacement)
|
| I like rugged, beefy laptops with fast screens and discrete
| graphics. There are downsides, for instance, no linux system
| I've found yet seem to be able to replicate the battery life
| optimizations that come by default with Windows, Fedora had
| issues properly responding to the trackpad, pop OS seems to
| have stuttering issues playing back youtube videos on Firefox,
| annoying things like that, but I like having the raw power
| needed to do things like running stable diffusion or koboldAI
| or whatever LLM client I want or play some video games or
| editing images and videos, doing light programming tasks, and
| just being an all-around do-what-you-want platform that doesn't
| try to opinionate me out of an option I might want to try.
|
| I will probably give Debian 12 or SUSE a try on the next go
| round unless I find something better.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| Some things that I'd like:
|
| Either 100% USB-C, or include a USB-A port. I'm really sick of
| laptops containing ports that I'll never use, but needing to
| STILL carry around an adaptor. I don't see how anyone can justify
| getting rid of USB-A (which everyone needs,) while still keeping
| things like 3.5mm headphone jacks, SD Card readers, HDMI... Just
| go USB-C only (and make everyone carry an adaptor) or include a
| USB-A port with the plethora of ports that I'll never use.
|
| I really want to bring back 17" laptops. I know this is a niche
| market, but I really miss my old 2007 MBP's wiiiiide screen. I
| don't mind the weight and the size; and there's plenty of smaller
| laptops on the market for everyone else.
| user_7832 wrote:
| I had probably written a longer comment earlier on HN, but if
| anyone is looking at this and is waiting for the perfect
| laptop... don't. (Assuming you have the money & time, I
| unfortunately do not right now.) The catch is that you would need
| to have moderate levels of proficiency with mechanical and
| electrical skills.
|
| At the end of the day, commercial clamshell laptops... 1. Have
| _terrible_ ergonomics, due to the small distance between the
| keyboard and the screen (unless you 're a baby, in which case,
| hi!). The small screen size doesn't help unless you're okay
| carrying a 17" laptop around. 2. Have components that will fail
| due to hardware wear and tear. Most noticeable are the hinges but
| also USB/audio ports and sometimes keyboards. Be it gunk or an
| accidental pet dropping the laptop on the port.
|
| A few companies occasionally try to address [1] - like the Asus
| Easel or the Lenovo/Asus folding laptops that improve portability
| or screen angle/position. Framework laptops address [2], but are
| traditional clamshell.
|
| If you _truly_ want a solution, a. Choose a decent single board
| computer (SBC) as a base, like a gigabyte brix. b. Print a 3d
| case for it to make it as small as possible. c. Spin your own
| display from panelook. d. Attach case from (2) with an expanding
| hinge-type contraption. e. Embellish with desired parts. I 'd
| suggest framework expansion cards. f. ??? g. Profit!
|
| (It doesn't hurt that 4"*4" and VESA-compatible SBCs and miniPCs
| are often standardized at least in 2 dimensions. And if anyone's
| interested in anything more on this front - making one, selling
| it, making a business of selling it etc - feel free to reach out
| to me (email in profile). I'm frustrated with modern laptops and
| fortunately have a degree in mechanical engineering.)
| the__alchemist wrote:
| Hi! I'd like you to know that despite this being downloaded, I
| completely agree! The ergonomics and repairability concerns of
| laptops, as you point out, are a big down side.
|
| That said, I think what you posted as a solution is not
| practical and perhaps not portable (Multiple pieces? wires?);
| maybe something like what you're thinking as an easy-to-
| use/portable/commercial solution could be a design goal for
| future portable PCs.
| soared wrote:
| > an SD card reader, why not, they're $5 ... also the ability to
| upgrade the basics, like memory and storage
|
| > 12" body ... to fit the 13" to 14" screen it would have very
| small bezels, this is a great size for fitting in bags and
| sitting on small tables
|
| Remove one and it makes the perfect laptop much more attainable.
| It's near impossible to fit removable hardware and many ports in
| a small body. Thinkpads are pretty close, but even some of those
| have to have a flip open expanding port for Ethernet. An hdmi
| port is taller than many laptops. The small body really is a huge
| plus for mobility and comfort, but you can't have ports/etc with
| that.
|
| Oddly enough my perfect laptop is still the google pixelbook.
| Enough power for what I need, flawless construction, incredible
| trackpad and keyboard, runs Linux and chromeos/android apps, is
| absolutely gorgeous, and super portable.
|
| Downside is there are like no ports so you need a usb hub, the
| bezel is huge, and ... it hasn't been improved in like half a
| decade.
| pengaru wrote:
| The size of a laptop often affects the size and distribution of
| its keyboard keys.
|
| What's appropriate for the user has a lot to do with the size of
| their hands, and I think this gets overlooked by many who are
| instead thinking about display size.
|
| As a person with smallish hands who programs (types a lot),
| anything larger than an X40/X60 ThinkPad form factor has been
| _very_ annoying to use.
|
| The move to widescreen aspect ratio displays has completely
| wrecked laptop typing efficiency in my world, since it tended to
| stretch out the keyboards beyond what my fingers can reach
| without lifting a palm.
|
| I wish laptop keyboards were treated more like specialized
| instruments fitted to buyers hands, like shoe sizes. If you
| consider how much $$ is paid to people that type all day, it's
| asinine that the laptop industry hasn't matured into optimizing
| that interface for individuals. Can't I at least get two hand
| size variants in the average laptop ordering page? Instead it
| feels like things have only regressed in this department since
| the classic ThinkPad days.
| amatecha wrote:
| One missing criterion: allow purchasing without Windows pre-
| installed, and thus with a slightly reduced price. I resent that
| all new "Windows-default" PCs include the OS (presumably driving
| up the price) which I am going to immediately erase.
| TehShrike wrote:
| How could anyone afford the engineering and manufacturing to
| build such a perfect laptop and sell it for <2000$?
| dusanh wrote:
| Has anyone tried running Linux on any of the Huawei laptops?
| WesolyKubeczek wrote:
| Two aspects in which Apple's newest Macbook Airs fit at least my
| own "peak laptop" definition are:
|
| 1) no fans whatsoever
|
| 2) no coil whine when I plug my headphones in and stress the CPU
|
| The keyboard is exactly the right size and the right font for me,
| but I'll concede that muscle memory is an individual thing. I've
| owned Apple's laptops and keyboards made in 2005, 2007, 2010,
| 2015, 2019, and 2022, and they are very hell-bent on being
| consistent about key size and placement, I should give it to
| them.
|
| I'd like a Linux laptop that would beat this.
|
| XPS13 is a close contender because that 3840x2400 screen is the
| right kind of ratio and super crisp, but man, that fan noise and
| the coil whine are just killing the mood. Maybe Thinkpad X13s,
| but Linux support and its screen are both very meh at this point.
| bee_rider wrote:
| There are nice utilities for capping your CPU frequency on
| Linux. So, IMO it would be better to have the fan, set your cap
| low enough to not need to use it most of the time. Then if you
| _do_ need it, you have the ability.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| >I'd like a Linux laptop that would beat this.
|
| Por que no los dos?
|
| Asahi is running on M2 now:
| https://asahilinux.org/2022/07/july-2022-release/
| maleldil wrote:
| Interestingly, the first time I heard a coil whine in a laptop
| was with the M1 Pro MBP. I never had it with any PC laptops. I
| found that it depended heavily on the electric wiring. It
| happened semi-frequently in Brazil, but almost never in the UK.
| bombela wrote:
| Sometimes I find the coil whine useful to detect a stray
| Firefox tab ;)
| rationalist wrote:
| I don't know if I won the lottery, but I have sensitive hearing
| and I've never heard a coil whine from my XPS 13 (9300). The
| charging brick did develop a whine which I replaced. It also
| had the perfect keyboard with no wiggling key caps. Later
| production 9300 models and recent XPS laptops do have key caps
| that wiggle (once you notice, it's super annoying, I think I've
| been spoiled).
| manav wrote:
| Waiting on M3 Air.
| oktwtf wrote:
| Gosh, the Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Nano Gen1 and Gen2 are awful,
| dreadful, terrible machines. I can understand having a thermal
| constraint tied to the thinness of chassis, but you would think
| it'd maybe throttle instead of shutting off in the middle of
| work. After blowing through 4 separate nano configurations all
| with the same fundamental problem and riddled with quality issues
| and borderline abusive support getting bounced around
| "specialists"; I'm much happier with a M1 Pro MacBook Pro. Not
| nearly as light, but it's worked every time I open the lid and
| want to use it for as long as I want. And that to me is the bare
| minimum.
|
| I have a desktop with a few gpus in it for "fun", so a laptop for
| me often is a client to access more power if needed. I run
| Sunshine and get 4k60 streaming for desktop, 3d modeling, video
| editing, and even gaming on occasion. Now with a MacBook instead
| of a thermally constrained thinkpud I can even do that stuff on
| the m1 locally do a degree.
| emrah wrote:
| Perhaps it's something as simple as bad thermal paste
| application
| koyote wrote:
| That's interesting, I've been running a Nano Gen1 for over a
| year now with no issues whatsoever (running both Linux and
| Windows).
|
| What I have had happen is my work Dell machine (Windows)
| shutting off if it overheats. I have to make sure it's on a
| surface that does not heat up and lets air flow freely. Resting
| it on the couch will kill it within 10-20 minutes.
|
| I use the Nano from the couch/bed for hours with no issues.
| Yhippa wrote:
| If the Pixelbook has the right aspect ratio, it would be my
| definition of the "perfect laptop".
| Darmody wrote:
| I want to mention Tuxedo Computers and Slimbook which are great.
|
| After trying a Slimbook I don't think I'll buy another brand
| unless a company like this one pops up. Of course Tuxedo is an
| equally good alternative but Slimbook HQ is literally 45 min away
| from home so that's a plus to me.
|
| They make laptops fully compatible with linux, offer great custom
| support, their designs are pretty nice in my opinion, good specs,
| quality build, good battery life (except for the "gaming"
| laptops), good trackpads, etc.
| lylejantzi3rd wrote:
| Am I the only one who likes 17" laptops? I miss my old lunch
| tray.
| kwanbix wrote:
| Love my ThinkPad P51 with 15.6". Which laptops have 17"?
| algas wrote:
| I love my P50! Although I'm still a little salty that I
| couldn't find any decent P51 models on eBay when I was
| buying, because I have a P51 mustang sticker on the back and
| the joke doesn't quite... land.
| rationalist wrote:
| Dell XPS
| lylejantzi3rd wrote:
| There are still a few 17" laptops in production, like the
| razer blade, but I was referring to the 2011 17 inch macbook
| pro[0]. It was called the "lunch tray" by people who thought
| it was too big.
|
| [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqfc9NBYfr0
| bxparks wrote:
| Dell Precision 77xx, 5750, 5760, 5770:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Precision
|
| (No first-hand experience with any of those.)
|
| (Updated: to add more models.)
| bombela wrote:
| Same, I don't mind carrying a big machine. Problem is most have
| a numpad, which shifts the keyboard and touch pad to the left.
| Being right handed, I find this very annoying.
| pmontra wrote:
| It seems that the 16" Framework will come with separate
| keyboard and numpad. The numpad can be placed on either side
| or taken away, and the keyboard centered. If only they had a
| touchpad with physical buttons...
| 542354234235 wrote:
| For me, I would much rather carry a 13" laptop, which is not
| only light but also opens up my bag options to small backpacks,
| slings, etc. and then pack nice peripherals like a keyboard and
| mouse. The size and weight requirements for a 17" laptop just
| do not work for me. When traveling and trying to not check a
| bag, that space is a premium and the flexibility of being able
| to store the peripherals separate, rather than the whole
| inflexible lunch tray really helps. Around town I don't want to
| be lugging around that much weight since I like my spine and
| don't need anymore back problems.
| SAI_Peregrinus wrote:
| You're not the only one. I mostly use laptops as notebooks, not
| on my lap, and usually plugged into a docking station for a
| decent keyboard, a mouse, and external monitors. I don't need a
| laptop for ants!
| brightball wrote:
| I left Apple after 10 years when they took away my 17" option.
| I feel you.
| jpm_sd wrote:
| I'm 6'3" and I have large hands. I'd love another 17" laptop.
| Anything less than 15" is an ergonomic torture device.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| Yeah, I'm also in this camp. Also my eyesight isn't great so
| I want a large keyboard and a large screen to make it work.
| westpfelia wrote:
| I'm in the same camp, 6'3" giant hands. Yet when I was given
| the option at work between a 13 and a 15 inch Macbook. I went
| with the 13" and LOVE it, sure I look a little silly with
| this tiny laptop. But it really does fit just right for my
| hands and weighs nothing.
| blauditore wrote:
| Recently I started looking for simple-as-possible, usually
| business laptops that have a certain level on each end
| (performance, weight/size, connectors etc.). However, they
| usually end up having some fancy feature I did not want, and it
| ends up making the experience worse. Examples are HP Sure View
| (it makes for a terrible viewing angle stability even when
| disabled), or some fancy huge MSI touchpad that doesn't quite
| work with Linux (no palm detection, which is detrimental).
| pmontra wrote:
| Starting with my ZBook 15 from 2014:
|
| 1. Make it 16:10. There is plenty of bezel for that. 1900x1200 or
| something like that. 1200p was pretty common on good CRT monitors
| in the 90s.
|
| 2. Make the number pad optional. Framework is doing that with
| their 16" model. I'll bury my number pad and give a party.
|
| 3. Keep the three physical buttons on the touchpad. By the way,
| it can probably do gestures and it definitely register clicks but
| I use it only to move the pointer and scroll with two fingers. I
| bought the physical buttons because I want to click with them.
| The middle one pastes the text selected with the left one
| (Linux.)
|
| 4. Keep it user serviceable. I replaced RAM, disks, keyboards,
| battery a few months ago, it aged well.
|
| 5. Maybe make it 2 kg.
|
| 6. Maybe trim some bezel on the sides and make it less wide.
|
| 7. Definitely make it work with a much slimmer power unit.
|
| 8. It's got USB 3 and 2 ports, DisplayPort, VGA, SD card.
| Probably add an USB C but I don't know. HDMI? I've got a
| converter for that.
|
| 9. Current year CPU and RAM.
|
| 10. Discrete graphic card? Don't know, probably not worth it. I
| have to watch videos and move my desktop, that's all.
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