[HN Gopher] SEC Formally Accepts BlackRock Spot Bitcoin ETF Appl...
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       SEC Formally Accepts BlackRock Spot Bitcoin ETF Application for
       Review
        
       Author : Malaalof
       Score  : 27 points
       Date   : 2023-07-16 19:21 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (decrypt.co)
 (TXT) w3m dump (decrypt.co)
        
       | neilv wrote:
       | Can anyone summarize in layperson's terms any standards that
       | these securities must meet?
       | 
       | For example, is there a standard saying that the thing invested
       | in must being legal? (No ETF based on illegal crack cocaine
       | manufacturing, nor a fund based on illegal human-trafficking?)
       | 
       | Is it OK if the thing is imaginary, but everyone just pretends it
       | has value? (Even if Gold is sometimes treated as imaginary
       | convenience, at least it's based on a physical commodity with
       | industrial application.) (Edit: Other than fiat currencies backed
       | by states.)
        
         | coolestguy wrote:
         | >Can anyone summarize in layperson's terms any standards that
         | these securities must meet?
         | 
         | No, not even the SEC & that's the cause of major court cases
         | currently.
         | 
         | In normal security offerings, there's disclosures coming from
         | the issuing company about financials/profitability etc but
         | btc/eth are peer to peer networks so there's no-one in the
         | middle to do these things & it is very different to normal
         | securities.
        
           | FireBeyond wrote:
           | > No, not even the SEC & that's the cause of major court
           | cases currently.
           | 
           | That's the spin of all the PR the crypto exchanges have put
           | out.
           | 
           | However, when it's time to put their money where their mouths
           | are, they don't mention that there's no specific standards
           | (because there is - the Howey Test).
           | 
           | Coinbase, for example, has been very loud about this. "We're
           | desperately asking the SEC to help us do this right and they
           | won't!"
           | 
           | Except their lawsuit says that they absolutely know how to
           | "do this right", but...
           | 
           | > for many tokens, registering is not possible due to effort
           | involved, or not economically viable.
           | 
           | i.e. Coinbase doesn't like the cost of having to register
           | securities for the shitcoin du jour - there's no money to be
           | made.
           | 
           | But the SEC isn't obligated to make a profitable business
           | model for Coinbase.
        
         | jyap wrote:
         | Something being illegal means you can't trade it legally.. so
         | that doesn't make sense.
         | 
         | It's like saying what age can you legally smoke? OK there's a
         | legal age for smoking and cigarettes aren't banned. Then you're
         | asking what age can you take illegal drugs? You can't, they're
         | illegal.
         | 
         | ETFs usually consist of legal equities, bonds, currencies, real
         | estate, commodities.
        
         | yreg wrote:
         | >Is it OK if the thing is imaginary, but everyone just pretends
         | it has value?
         | 
         | Yes it's okay. When people pretend something imaginary has a
         | value then it has a value. That's how money, bonds, deeds,
         | loans, contracts, equity, etc work.
        
       | thread_id wrote:
       | Just what we needed. The largest legal crime syndicate in the US
       | legalizing yet another scheme to suck money out the system. Most
       | likely targeting public employee pension funds that for some
       | reason beleive that they need to have risk exposure to all asset
       | classes including the currency of choice for criminal
       | transactions. Great.
        
         | crtified wrote:
         | Can you describe (simplified if necessary) the mechanism by
         | which Blackrock would use this ETF to suck money out of the
         | system?
        
         | distortionfield wrote:
         | > the currency of choice for criminal transactions
         | 
         | Sorry, that title still belongs to the US Dollar.
        
         | hellyer wrote:
         | Can you elab on the legal crime by Fink's Blackrock?
        
           | 0xedd wrote:
           | Advocate for closure of nuclear plants in Germany and sign
           | deal to fund coal company. All through shell corps, media and
           | political brib... Sorry, campaign funds.
        
       | s3p wrote:
       | So now you can buy bitboin without actually buying bitcoin...
       | wow. Expose yourself to all the volatility, all the harsh swings
       | and market manipulation by crypto whales, all while owning _none_
       | of the currency. Sounds awful.
        
         | gberger wrote:
         | Owning actual cryptocurrency is a huge hassle with concerns
         | about key storage, hot vs cold wallets, etc. Investors are much
         | more likely to already have the infrastructure in place to hold
         | an asset like an ETF, so offering bitcoin wrapped in an ETF
         | presents the opportunity to these investors to get exposure to
         | crypto valuations without getting exposed to crypto hacks.
        
           | Our_Benefactors wrote:
           | > so offering bitcoin wrapped in an ETF presents the
           | opportunity to these investors to get exposure to crypto
           | valuations without getting exposed to crypto hacks.
           | 
           | Every few years I hear about a bitcoin ETF and it seems like
           | even worse of a scam than holding cryptocurrency directly.
           | 
           | Clearly I'm too dumb (or too smart?) to understand how an ETF
           | can tie itself to the value of bitcoin without also including
           | a freely available redemption mechanism. Does it? If the
           | value of my shares is equal to 1BTC (or whatever other cash
           | out threshold), will they send Bitcoin to an address I
           | specify? Is the ETF fully backed by bitcoin in a publicly
           | auditable fashion?
        
             | peyton wrote:
             | No, AFAIK the fund sells shares to buy Bitcoin and sells
             | Bitcoin to buy shares.
        
             | rocqua wrote:
             | There are a few parties (called Authorized Participants)
             | who are allowed to mint ETF shares by handing the fund the
             | underlying, or redeem ETF shares in return for the
             | underlying.
             | 
             | These APs are chosen carefully, and have the express job of
             | creating liquidity. They make their money on arbitrage,
             | thus keeping the ETF price closely matched to that of the
             | underlying.
        
             | modeless wrote:
             | The answers to these questions and more are publicly
             | available here: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/198
             | 0994/000143774923...
             | 
             | > An investment in Shares is: Backed by bitcoin held by the
             | Bitcoin Custodian on behalf of the Trust.
             | 
             | > Baskets may be created or redeemed only by Authorized
             | Participants. Each Authorized Participant must be a
             | registered broker-dealer, a participant in DTC, have
             | entered into an agreement with the Sponsor and the Trustee
             | (the "Authorized Participant Agreement") and be in a
             | position to transfer bitcoin to, and take delivery of
             | bitcoin from, the Bitcoin Custodian through one or more
             | accounts. The Authorized Participant Agreement provides the
             | procedures for the creation and redemption of Baskets and
             | for the delivery of bitcoin in connection with such
             | creations or redemptions. A list of the current Authorized
             | Participants can be obtained from the Trustee or the
             | Sponsor.
             | 
             | This is all very standard and no more or less of a scam
             | than other ETFs.
        
             | jyap wrote:
             | An ETF generally requires a redemption mechanism.
             | 
             | In the case of the BlackRock ETF it's in the application.
             | "Baskets may be created or redeemed only by Authorized
             | Participants who pay BlackRock Investments, LLC".
             | 
             | No you can't personally physically redeem the Bitcoin
             | yourself. That's not the purpose and use of this ETF.
        
         | coolestguy wrote:
         | It's a spot etf
        
         | jjtheblunt wrote:
         | https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/etf.asp
         | 
         | https://www.investor.gov/introduction-investing/investing-ba...
         | 
         | I think there's no buying X involved with an index ETF over X,
         | in general, and I believe they are talking about an index etf
         | here. (Of course, it still is some sort of gamble to trade in
         | an index ETF.)
        
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       (page generated 2023-07-16 23:02 UTC)