[HN Gopher] Neural stimulation as a treatment for addiction
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Neural stimulation as a treatment for addiction
Author : pseudolus
Score : 59 points
Date : 2023-07-14 11:15 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (spectrum.ieee.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (spectrum.ieee.org)
| d-us-vb wrote:
| The view that addiction is a disease is still contentious.
| Addiction may really be the brain functioning normally, but with
| abnormal stimuli. Brains are learning organs. Addictive
| substances don't rewire it any differently from "normal" stimuli,
| it just does it faster and it's harder to undo.
|
| But due to brain plasticity, the most effective treatment for
| addiction yet discovered is forgetting it, or more precisely,
| abstinence for a long enough period. (But that usually sounds
| trite because the problem being solved during treatment is more
| preventing voluntary relapse, starting the forgetting period over
| again.)
|
| The fact that the effects don't last for more than a few months
| is very concerning, and I have to wonder about the long term side
| effects of so bluntly changing something as complex as a brain.
| And even more concerning is the risk of predatory behavior of
| practitioners preying on the desperation of addicts.
|
| Maybe this is already in everyone's mind as they read this, but
| as someone dealing with an addiction, I would not volunteer for
| this treatment due to these risks. Imagine if the long term
| effects actually make the addiction worse. And that seems very
| possible based on how much we actually know about how the brain
| works.
| zzzzzzzza wrote:
| abstinence for a long enough period having an effective
| mechanism of forgetting is actually a pretty interesting
| concept, do you have any paper recommendations on that line?
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I suspect that Betteridge's law of headlines applies, here...
|
| _EDIT: They removed the silly question from the HN posting, but
| it 's still the title of the page ("CAN NEURAL STIMULATION ZAP
| ADDICTION?")_
| scns wrote:
| If substances that trigger a dependency with a dangerous
| withdrawal like Methadone or Alcohol in hard cases are excluded,
| then addiction and even just drug use is just trying to numb pain
| to me. It can be physical or emotional in nature.
|
| If the treated choose another activity, like excissive sports or
| work distract themselves again, how much is won?
|
| If this shortcut works, great.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| When we obtain pleasure from anything, we increase what it's
| called "receptor density". When you have higher receptor
| density and you stop doing the activity, those neurons don't
| fire.
|
| And this is why in Taoism as well as Buddhism, the goal is to
| lose attachment to all things.
| nelox wrote:
| So my goal should be to not have a goal. Wait.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| To be free from a prison, you have to walk out of the
| prison. So even your last step to freedom is dictated by
| your captor.
|
| A goal to end all goals. It is as easy as it sounds, do not
| even try to have no goal.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| Consider the counter-example, seen on a street near you --
| addiction as a response to excessive neural stimulation
| sdfhbdf wrote:
| > During the magnetic-stimulation treatment, Peter was shown
| pictures of drugs and encouraged to reflect on the harmful
| consequences of his addiction. The hope is that his brain's
| reward circuits--a complex network of interwoven brain regions
| that control pleasure-seeking behaviors--will get reconfigured in
| ways that ultimately alleviate cravings and strengthen self-
| control.
|
| Sounds like a scene right out of "A Clockwork Orange" [0]
|
| [0]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066921/
| phren0logy wrote:
| This really falls apart when you consider that not just
| cooperation but active effort on the part of the participant is
| required to make this work, otherwise it could easily achieve
| the opposite result.
| lacrimacida wrote:
| Same thoughs here. Let's hope they don't play Beethoven during
| the stimulation.
| [deleted]
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| But I thought EMFs can't do anything to people?
| ooterness wrote:
| TMS involves strapping a very strong electromagnet directly to
| your head. Field strengths routinely hit 2-3 Tesla, about a
| million times stronger than the stray EMF from high-voltage
| transmission lines.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulat...
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(magnetic_...
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| I am familiar with TMS. I have a friend who became suicidal
| after undergoing TMS.
|
| And regarding orders of magnitude, if a lot does something,
| what is the lowest order if magnitude that does anything? And
| to who? Does genetics matter? Does genetics matter in TMS?
| And are short pulses of high Gauss the same as long term
| exposure to a lower Gauss? Are we comparing apples to apples?
|
| So many questions and so much certainty...
| ooterness wrote:
| In short: No, they are not the same at all.
|
| I do not work in this field, but have taken a class or two
| on biomedical engineering.
|
| Some background: Neurons in your brain communicate with
| adjacent neurons by various chemical signals. But each
| neuron has an all-or-nothing threshold. At any given moment
| it's either activating a pulse called an "action-potential"
| or it's idle and waiting for stimulus from other neurons.
|
| TMS applies very short, very strong magnetic pulses to
| brain tissue. The affected region is small but contains
| millions of neurons. By electromagnetic induction, the
| changing magnetic field creates just enough localized
| voltage for those neurons to start activating at random
| without any external stimulus.
|
| Stray EMF is nowhere near strong enough to create a similar
| effect.
|
| The TMS effect is not strong enough to cause physical
| damage, but having all those neurons firing at random does
| have various effects, some good, some bad.
|
| I'm very sorry about your friend. Researchers are trying to
| learn if and how TMS can be used safely and effectively,
| but it is still experimental. If a doctor recommended it,
| they must have exhausted better-understood treatment
| options.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| "Stray EMF" is carrying a lot of weight. You know, I have
| lived in houses and surveyed houses with magnetic fields
| over 1000nT or 1 uT, simetimes over 2! And this is equal
| to an exposure of someone working in the electrical
| supply industry.
|
| https://www.arpansa.gov.au/understanding-radiation/what-
| is-r...
|
| Effects of much lower levels have already been shown in
| rats
|
| https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/pms.2003.97.
| 3f....
|
| And humans:
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S07
| 533...
|
| These magnetic fields will turn into currents in the body
| and change our biology.
| phren0logy wrote:
| The falloff of that field strength is very rapid over
| just a few cm.
| pinkcan wrote:
| "Exploring Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation as a Potential
| Treatment for Addiction: Promising Results but More Research
| Needed"
| LoganDark wrote:
| https://xkcd.com/2268/
| jokowueu wrote:
| It seems fMRI guided TMS is the go to option , currently they are
| relying on approximations but it costs 10k$ for all of those
| sessions .Ibogaine analogues such as tabernanthalog will be the
| go to option because of ease of use,cost and time required .
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