[HN Gopher] Ever Given report highlights Suez Canal pilots' role...
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Ever Given report highlights Suez Canal pilots' role in grounding
Author : Breadmaker
Score : 70 points
Date : 2023-07-14 17:34 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (gcaptain.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (gcaptain.com)
| Animats wrote:
| The actual report is quite good.[1] See especially page 26, the
| text that is underlined, in bold, and repeated in the executive
| summary. "After the wind had increased, the pilot was issuing
| more helm orders to the helmsman. These were either for hard to
| port or for hard to starboard, with few midships or lesser helm
| orders in between. The pilot did not give the helmsman a course
| to steer, only helm orders".
|
| That's the view from Panama, which puts a huge number of ships
| through channels narrower than the Suez Canal.
|
| Fortunately, in the aftermath, the wild ideas proposed for
| getting the Ever Given out unstuck were ignored, and Smit
| Salvage, which is a very cautious outfit, was brought in.
|
| [1] https://gcaptain.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Final-
| Invest...
| mongol wrote:
| This, taken together with the pilots speaking Arabic to each
| other with the bridge staff being unable to follow the
| discussion, gave me an impression of a very chaotic situation
| leading up to the grounding. Fortunately, it only caused
| material damage. Similar situation on an airplane would have
| been disasterous.
| bombcar wrote:
| Captains are basically screwed in these situations as the ship
| responsibly falls on them but if they intervene or interfere with
| the pilots responsibility falls on them.
|
| It's a catch 22 and he probably should have demanded tugs but
| then he'd be in trouble with the bosses for costings.
|
| Do it fast do it cheap and don't fuck up.
| gpm wrote:
| Does anyone know what consequences the Captain of the Ever
| Given has actually faced?
| that_guy_iain wrote:
| [flagged]
| CameronNemo wrote:
| Yeah if I wanted to ask an LLM I would not have commented
| in a human discussion forum.
| that_guy_iain wrote:
| [flagged]
| CameronNemo wrote:
| IMHO your response is worse than no response at all.
| While the captain, his crew, and the ship were basically
| held hostage while a settlement was being negotiated (so
| the detention claim is true), searches of DuckDuckGo,
| Google, and Wikipedia do not yield any claims that the
| captain is being charged with reckless navigation or any
| other crime.
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| Now I _really_ want to know if Bard knows something than
| an English Google search didn't
| ptaffs wrote:
| I think you know Bard doesn't. These systems literally
| make things up in a convincing way. The lawyers who were
| prosecuted "believed ChatGPT had greater reach than
| standard databases."
| https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/08/nyregion/lawyer-
| chatgpt-s...
| ChristianGeek wrote:
| His license was suspended at the end of last year:
|
| https://mynbc15.com/news/nation-world/ever-forward-
| captain-h...
| gusgus01 wrote:
| That's a different ship and different captain: Ever
| Forward and Captain Steven Germac.
|
| The ship in the Suez Canal was Ever Given and Captain
| Krishnan Kanthavel.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I've seen the wind cited as a Black Swan, but I think it's really
| a known unknown. You _know_ there can be high winds in the
| desert.
|
| As for visibility: I'm not on the scene, but one would think
| that, with all the money at stake, the canal and the ships would
| have enough instrumentation that visuals are completely
| unnecessary.
| bjornasm wrote:
| We dont have fail safe sensor technologies for cars, so I dont
| think we should expect to have it for ships that have even a
| greater need to know things in advance.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I was just thinking about knowing how far you are from the
| banks. Surely that's a solvable problem. It has nothing to do
| with knowing things in advance.
| mbreese wrote:
| I'd suspect the issue would be with precision. GPS, et al.
| are good, but at what resolution do you really need it to
| be? Is 1m accuracy enough? 1m at what point on the ship?
| And do you want to install that equipment on each ship
| traversing the Suez Canal?
|
| It was pretty clear from the report that they had a _ton_
| of data about the ship 's speed, position, rotation, etc.
| It was quite detailed, not knowing where they were wasn't
| the problem.
|
| The report also showed how much the wind was changing
| directions at the time. It was all over the place. Again,
| it was a known factor, just not given the appropriate
| weight.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| LIDAR is cheap enough to put on a consumer car, so I
| really don't think expense is an issue. It wouldn't be
| GPS.
|
| Not to mention the ships most likely already have
| transponders.
|
| So it does seem like a "You're getting too close to the
| bank!" alarm should have been screaming at them. And
| probably was. Not responding properly was the issue.
| somat wrote:
| Note the radar screens present in the report, I don't know
| anything about marine operations. So while I don't think you
| would want to navigate via radar alone, it looks like it has
| enough resolution that you could.
| that_guy_iain wrote:
| > Addressing the language barrier, the report states: "Language
| difficulties can also add to problems associated with pilots and
| these should be considered. In the case of M/V EVER GIVEN,
| although Pilots orders were given in English language, the
| discussion between them was always in Arabic language, therefore
| the Bridge Team, could not understand pilots concerns (if any),
| the potential hazards, in order to on time and effectively
| conduct risk assessment."
|
| Having worked in a multinational company where many people speak
| other languages than the offical language I have noticed that
| people often don't realise how important it is to understand why
| they came to a decision. They'll discuss something in a second
| language then say the outcome to everyone. Often people don't
| want to make a fuss and ask how they came to that conclusion and
| important information is kept from the team. I've seen the issues
| this cause on non important issues in tech. I can't imagine how
| it feels when it comes to important things where people's safety
| is involed.
| xyzelement wrote:
| [flagged]
| jxramos wrote:
| ah yah, if there was a wrong detour along the route to the
| conclusion or something was incorrectly assumed, some bad
| premise relied upon, those junction points for interjection are
| all inaccessible when they unfold in an non-official language.
| the8472 wrote:
| That's not really specific to the language barrier though.
| Anything discussed verbally will be lost to those who are not
| present, irrespective of discussion language. Ticket with
| motivation, proposed solutions, considered alternatives, links
| to larger context. That should be the standard for many
| processes.
| zbrozek wrote:
| Though probably not for steering a boat, which has some real-
| time constraints.
| joosters wrote:
| A bit off-topic, but it is refreshing to see a news article that
| can be bothered to link to the full report!
| greatfilter250 wrote:
| [dead]
| mbreese wrote:
| It is a news article on a site for the maritime industry...
| With that audience, there is probably an expectation to link to
| the actual report. I wouldn't have that expectation for a
| mainstream source (CNN, NYT, BBC, etc...), because that's not
| the audience. gCaptain's audience would have much more interest
| in reading the report directly (and be experts enough to
| interpret it).
|
| I'd also expect a tech site like ArsTechnica to link directly
| to a security CVE. Same concept, different audiences.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| I'm surprised that ships still rely on so much manual navigation.
| In 2023, when most of the aircrafts are pretty much handled by
| the computer, why are ships not working with same amount of
| automation? Pilots and captains should only be present to handle
| difficult maneuvers and emergency situations.
| creatonez wrote:
| Pretty much all ships have some form of auto pilot suitable for
| the open ocean, but navigating the Suez Canal is an incredibly
| tedious process due to how narrow it is.
|
| During the original Suez blockage news cycle, some maritime
| experts pointed out just how absurdly stressful it is to
| navigate a canal:
|
| > [Captain Bill Kavanagh] said: "The procedure is very
| stressful for the ship. Those ships are on the high seas and
| have a very good routine. Then they arrive in Port Said or even
| Suez... and suddenly all hell breaks loose.
|
| > "There's a lot going on, a lot of people coming on board, the
| Suez Canal crew come on board, and at least one pilot comes on
| board. Those ships are actually piloted by an expert who knows
| the canal very well... nevertheless, this is a stranger and a
| new person is part of the bridge team.
|
| > He explained that a convoy could consist of around 10 ships,
| while a large lake in the middle of the canal - the Great
| Bitter Lake - allows traffic to flow smoothly in both
| directions despite the canal itself only being a single lane.
|
| > [...]
|
| > However, he said physics effects such as the Bernoulli effect
| can result in very sudden changes in a ship's course, while
| strong winds may have been another factor.
|
| CNN published a simulator where you get to try to go through
| the Suez Canal yourself:
| https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2021/03/cnnix-steership/ This
| simulator is, of course, ignoring things like communication
| difficulties caused by language barrier (they speak Arabic),
| some of the more nitty gritty physics of the task, tides,
| safety concerns, etc.
|
| There is also a canal navigation simulator in meatspace, if
| you're up to the task -
| https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/a-mini-sue...
| thedrbrian wrote:
| >In 2023, when most of the aircrafts are pretty much handled by
| the computer,
|
| This has got to be top ten of most wrongest comments on hacker
| news.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Nah. It's par for the course when you ask someone who is an
| expert in one field to comment on something outside of their
| expertise.
|
| If we consider modern large jet airliners and cargo planes to
| be equivalent to large ships, most of those planes have
| advanced automation.
|
| :)
| [deleted]
| mbreese wrote:
| I think there are a lot of take home messages here that are
| applicable to many different situations.
|
| 1) Have a plan and try to stick to it. Rapid changes (hard
| port/hard starboard) without having a heading is dangerous.
|
| 2) Relying on local pilot/expert knowledge is important, but the
| captain knows their ship better. The expert should be considered
| an advisor and shouldn't be giving direct commands (especially
| without rationale). Experts can be wrong, so don't blindly follow
| their recommendations.
|
| 3) Communication is critical. The language barrier between the
| pilots and the ship's crew was pointed out repeatedly in the
| report. If you can't understand the rationale for a decision,
| blindly following it puts you at risk. It is important that
| everyone is communicating in a way that the whole team (pilot +
| ship crew) can understand.
|
| 4) The strong, changing winds were a known entity before the ship
| started the canal transit. Sometimes the risk isn't worth risking
| the whole ship and delay is warranted.
|
| I very much view this incident through the lens of the XY
| problem[1] ... don't ask me how to do a solution. Instead, tell
| me the problem or what you are trying to achieve, and then we can
| figure out the best solution to a problem. In this case, the
| pilots kept telling the helm to steer hard to port/starboard.
| This made it difficult for the ship's crew to achieve the actual
| goal -- keep the ship in the middle of the canal.
|
| [1] https://xyproblem.info/
| quercusa wrote:
| _The Panama Maritime Authority made several recommendations,
| including... paying attention during transit._
|
| Who could argue?
| paulmd wrote:
| big fan of the "jesus take the helm" strategy, one of the best
| pilots I've ever worked with
| bell-cot wrote:
| Ah, for the Good Old Days. When a ship's captain might have some
| real authority.
|
| I used to know both the Captain and Chief Engineer of a large (
| 600+ foot long ) freighter on the Great Lakes (
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes ). The latter told
| stories about the former arguing (via radio) with the ship's
| owners, about speed vs. safety. At least once, after the Captain
| had _backtracked_ the ship to a safe-ish anchorage in the face of
| worsening weather, he told the owners "I'll get your ship, crew,
| and cargo to [destination] long before the Edmund Fitzgerald
| does" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Fitzgerald ).
|
| (The actual language was saltier than that. The Captain got away
| with it, and retired a success.)
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(page generated 2023-07-14 23:01 UTC)