[HN Gopher] System Shock remake
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System Shock remake
Author : saturn5k
Score : 65 points
Date : 2023-07-12 19:27 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.eurogamer.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.eurogamer.net)
| adeon wrote:
| The old System Shock was the first 3D game I played in my life. I
| was a kid and could not read English and did not understand
| what's going but had tons of fun.
|
| I played the remake recently. I was decent, but I think it was
| _too_ faithful to the original in some ways:
|
| - There's lots of junk items with (almost) no purpose that you
| can pick up.
|
| - Buttons are often difficult to see on walls; you might skip an
| area because you thought you cannot progress because you couldn't
| tell there's a button from clutter
|
| - Enemy AI is very simple and easy to exploit. Combat can feel a
| bit dull, because it's mostly the same kind of combat as the
| 1994.
|
| - Inventory management UX could use some work. I found popping up
| the menu annoying.
|
| - Large complicated maps, sometimes can feel a bit empty and
| comes with lots of backtracking. I kinda enjoy that though.
|
| I liked the remake, and that the story and puzzles were faithful
| but I wonder if someone who wasn't a fan of the original would
| find it appealing. This might be a "where the hell do I go" game
| for anyone who hasn't played it before.
|
| SHODAN's voice acting and over-the-top megalomaniac lines are a
| reason alone to play this thing.
|
| Also I wished they had remixed or brought back the old
| soundtrack. The only place where I heard a hint of the original
| music was on the reactor level with the unusual bass line. It was
| my favorite track.
|
| Reactor level music in the original (loud warning):
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up80FfzySFA
|
| New reactor level music from the remake:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxku9cbIcMQ
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| > Also I wished they had remixed or brought back the old
| soundtrack
|
| You don't listen to Bruce Willis albums in 2023. Because, just
| like the original SS OST, it was a product of _that_ time.
|
| IMNSHO you need a genius to bring it to the modern times and
| not be that irritating.
| badsectoracula wrote:
| > There's lots of junk items with (almost) no purpose that you
| can pick up.
|
| AFAIK the point is to use it with the replicator-like
| functionality. This wasn't in the original but System Shock 2
| had a similar functionality so they sort-of backported it.
|
| > Large complicated maps, sometimes can feel a bit empty and
| comes with lots of backtracking. I kinda enjoy that though.
|
| Same here, it wouldn't be a proper "Shock" game if it wasn't
| for the labyrinthine maps (looking at you Bioshock) :-P.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| >> - There's lots of junk items with (almost) no purpose that
| you can pick up.
|
| A pity the remake does not have an option to switch off all the
| red herring items. Red Herring items really spoil a game....
| it's an idea that fortunately modern games seem to have left
| behind.
|
| This is the sort of thing a remake should fix or give option to
| fix.
|
| They should fix the "hidden button" problem too.
|
| Presumably it's not too late for NightDive to do further
| updates.
| giobox wrote:
| I spent my first 5 hrs collecting all the dog tags
| automatically, as naturally in any modern game this would
| lead to some kind of achievement.
|
| I only found out they serve no purpose at all when my
| inventory was completely full and I had to check on reddit if
| I even needed the damn things.
|
| I played the original, but my memory is somewhat hazy given
| its been ~30years. On balance I really like this remake, but
| it does carry some of the original's warts too.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| Easy to imagine a "no useless items" option in gameplay
| settings.
|
| If a game has Red Herrings then I just stop interacting
| with items entirely.
|
| When items always have a purpose then they attract
| attention.
|
| Working out what is useful/useless isn't fun.
| gloryjulio wrote:
| The backers revolted when they revealed that there were too
| many changes. So the developers reverted many in order to be
| faithful. That's why it works like this
| adeon wrote:
| Ugh, I wonder if they made it worse. Do you know a link where
| I can read what kind of things were rolled back?
| colechristensen wrote:
| Is the kind of thing where no matter what you do there is
| going to be a sizable group of unhappy people.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| That original is the Gravis ultrasound version, which wasn't
| that good compared to the basic soundbaster midi.
| jchw wrote:
| I thought in general, MIDI on Soundblaster was rendered via
| OPL2/3 whereas GUS had wavetable synthesis with customizable
| patches. Would you not generally expect it to be better?
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| Well, it's a matter of preference. That's like amiga music
| vs c64 music. C64 music was much more closer to my heart.
| jchw wrote:
| Okay, that's a fair point. Truth be told, I actually
| really do like the sound of those FM chips like the
| Yamaha OPL2, and the SID.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EcgruWlXnQ
|
| or
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoGFV_xxR64
|
| And Matt Grey did an awesome job with the remasters
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrxPzxOwI_4
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| Depends on the composer.
|
| To this day I prefer ugly, but fun, ESSFM to GUS in DOOM/2.
|
| Duke3D sounds better on a wavetable board but AWE32/64
| version (at least with a stock bank) is meh.
|
| ADD: if you never heard "Asphyxiated Soul":
| https://ocremix.org/remix/OCR01865
| lordfrito wrote:
| Look at you hackers... I'm surprised at some of the negative
| comments here.
|
| The dev team did an amazing job of balancing the old with the
| new. Too much emphasis on the new and you alienate the fanbase,
| too much emphasis on the old and you miss out on the
| opportunities afforded by modern hardware and UI advancements.
|
| I for one loved it. The world felt familiar to me, like visiting
| an old friend that had aged well. I forgot how much I enjoyed SS2
| back in the day, and this game re-kindled my love for the
| franchise.
|
| Hearing SHODAN again after all of these years is worth the price
| of admission alone.
|
| Here's to hoping this game does well enough to revive interest in
| making more games in this universe.
| Loughla wrote:
| Bingo. You nailed it. I didn't know it existed until the steam
| sale and it popped up. I was super pumped.
|
| SS2 is a formative memory for me. It was so different and edgy
| and scary that it left a real imprint on my brain.
|
| The new release scratches that itch, and I loved it. I've
| fallen off of gaming as I get older and have more
| responsibilities, but I'm finding time for this game.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| I still remember how I was listening to some audio log and
| then suddenly I hear 'Run, RUN' and I get a whack on my head
| and I needed a full two seconds to comperhend what it
| happened in the computer game before me, not _with_ me.
|
| I did't play SSR, and I doubt I will, but I had a great
| pleasure watching how it came to be and how people reacted to
| it
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| The fact there are about equal voices praising and condemning
| the changes tells me they probably got it exactly right.
| There's no way to please everyone.
| adeon wrote:
| At the start of the game at medical level, you can hear
| SHODAN's introduction to citadel station, without the corrupted
| style she has for the rest of the game. And wow it sounded
| really nice, crisp, modern, but still unmistakably SHODAN. I
| loved that.
|
| You can also reframe the intro story for the modern tech-minded
| audience:
|
| They installed ChatGPT72 on citadel station in 2072, code-named
| SHODAN to run the operations.
|
| Edward Diego did some unethical stuff and wrote a prompt to try
| to get the AI to erase the records. But he got "As an AI
| language model, I cannot go against corporate policy blah
| blah".
|
| So he hired a black market ML expert to produce a jailbreak
| prompt to get the AI to obey. The unaligned LLM model then goes
| unhinged and commits genocide.
|
| The stuttering SHODAN voice comes from a sophisticated token
| sampling where the token generation is backtracked as more
| likely sequence of tokens are found, but the rolled back tokens
| are synthesized prematurely.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| [flagged]
| cupofjoakim wrote:
| Why? In what way is it better than through your personal
| nostalgia?
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| You also haven't played the original.
| ChrisClark wrote:
| Why are you not engaging and answering questions about why
| you think it's better?
|
| Instead you just shutdown conversation.
|
| I have played both, the remake is better. You've obviously
| never played this remake.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| I have my reasons... no offense.
| ykonstant wrote:
| Yes offense. You keep posting shitty one liners making
| assumptions (truly putting the ass in assumption, in
| fact) about the people you are replying to, and then when
| asked about your own, you write some comically adolescent
| "I have my reasons... _turns around mysteriously with
| cape floating in the wind_ " bullshit.
|
| So take your head out of your fucking ass and be
| specific. Oh, and yes, I, posting from my eponymous
| account, have indeed played and finished the original
| System Shock.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| [flagged]
| JPws_Prntr_Fngr wrote:
| Gun holder, if you can read this, please, make him stop
| posting.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| He is laughing right now, but might regain his posture
| soon, so...
| dfan wrote:
| I am one of the developers of the original game and I would not
| want to play it in 2023.
| dfan wrote:
| Brief followup to replies: we were all figuring it out as we
| went along. When you're doing something for the first time,
| it tends not to be optimal. People here have noted the janky
| controls in particular. Even for things where we did iterate
| a lot and were happy with our solution, it was a solution in
| a 1994 context, where games were punishing and it was sort of
| a point of honor to not cut players a break. Game design has
| advanced a lot in the last thirty years. I'm proud of the the
| part we played in that evolution... but a lot of it happened
| after 1994.
|
| I have not played the remake so I don't have any comments on
| it.
| gopher_space wrote:
| You should fire it up sometime just to see how quickly the
| game loads now.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| What's your take on the remake? Did they make a good job,
| have any reservations? Anything missing maybe?
| [deleted]
| andrewstuart wrote:
| I really wanted to like System Shock but the controls made it
| unplayable pretty much.
|
| A pity as it was not long at all until "mouse look" was
| developed by other games, an innovation which would have
| solved much of System Shocks control problems.
| nolok wrote:
| They invented or perfected so many things that were way
| ahead of their time, from the free world navigation, to the
| fully configurable difficulty level, to all the world
| interactions and the implants and ... But alas controls was
| not in that list, and like you said that game came just a
| wee bit too early to avoid the pre-quake era control
| trainwreck of FPS trying to be more complicated than Doom.
|
| Loved it, absolutely unique and infinitely fun, but damn
| did it need a remake for that alone.
| programd wrote:
| Man, this is why I love HN.
|
| Come on dfan, you can't leave us hanging like that. Why would
| you not want to play it in 2023? We want specifics!
| nolok wrote:
| Not parent, but because the control scheme was terrible ?
| It's a game that was made when advanced on the edge control
| system like mouse look were not really invented yet for
| FPS, and its "cyberworld" was horrible. I once got blocked
| inside a tetris game played in my in-game implant and
| couldn't figure out how to get back to the main ui, it was
| way too advanced in ideas for the controls it had. Also the
| graphics are really showing their age, frankly.
|
| The original is on gog, including an "enhanced" version
| that improve it vastly, and I love this game with a
| passion, have been since its release, but it's a horrible
| game to manipulate in 2023. Given this remake is faithful
| to the core ideas of the game, and most reviews says so,
| it's a no brainer which one you should play.
| ch_sm wrote:
| That's so cool! Must have been wild to work at Looking Glass
| - you guys were so innovative!
| nine_k wrote:
| The original is worth playing. It does not mean that a remake
| is _not_ worth playing!
|
| (If you have the time, of course.)
| Analemma_ wrote:
| Nah, this is one case where nostalgia is not productive or
| true. The original System Shock looked like ass-- and I don't
| just mean the quality of the graphics, I mean all the useless
| junk that you can't get rid of in the interface-- and the
| control scheme was insane, as you'd expect from that early
| period where game designers were still figuring out how FPS
| controls worked.
|
| Play the remake: it is faithful except where it fixes decisions
| in the original that were genuinely bad.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| That pixelated graphics fueled your fantasy. Btw there is an
| enhanced edition with 1024x graphics...
| busterarm wrote:
| For me it perpetuated all of the horrible design decisions
| that I hated in the original.
|
| At least I finished this one, but it was a slog and most
| sections of the game were not enjoyable for me.
|
| For me, System Shock was always a game with great ideas and
| great character but horrendous execution. Even back then the
| people touting the game always seemed like they were talking
| more about the atmosphere of the game than its actual
| gameplay.
|
| In that same year, we were playing Doom II, TIE Fighter,
| Warcraft, X-COM and Master of Magic. I left out Arena because
| like System Shock, it was also super jank, especially on
| release.
|
| System Shock was a niche game that most gamers only
| discovered years later.
| JPws_Prntr_Fngr wrote:
| I've upvoted you solely to increase visibility for the
| developer you provoked (and who made you look like an asshat).
| In the future, either post better, or somehow try to post
| another legendarily shitty thread to provoke more ancient devs.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| [flagged]
| revolvingocelot wrote:
| Yes! Well, not exactly: play the Enhanced Edition [0], which
| modernizes only the mouselook, keyboard controls, and
| compatibility, but leaves all other aspects unchanged.
|
| Frankly, there's even value in the actual original version, in
| that the alien control scheme really makes one feel as though
| one's piloting some sort of unwieldy vehicle. It's
| ludonarratively consonant with the hacker-main-character
| struggling with the military-grade neural hardware he received
| in exchange for jailbreaking SHODAN, and kicking off the story.
|
| The remake version does away with a bunch of weapons, and
| rejiggers inventory to be in the style of System Shock 2 which
| utilized a grid, a la Diablo or any number of others These are
| minor changes, but they really repulse me. The original could
| easily deal out "unbalanced" or unusual encounters because of
| the incredible variety and amount of inventory cruft one would
| collect -- grenades, drugs, all the different ammo types.
|
| [0] https://www.gog.com/en/game/system_shock_enhanced_edition
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| Bingo.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| I played the original on my 486dx2 50mhz back in the day and
| IMHO the remake is extremely faithful and much more enjoyable.
| The keyboard controls of the original are not great--it was
| well before people figured out good 3d game controls with mouse
| and wasd keys. The original is slow and plodding like you're
| piloting a battlemech. The remake is much easier and more
| natural to control.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| [flagged]
| falcor84 wrote:
| Why? From what I understand, it's an extremely faithful remake
| with just better graphics and slightly better UX.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| You haven't played the original, I'm sure of it.
| bastardoperator wrote:
| I have, this remake is better. The mouse controls aren't
| completely insane and the graphics are 100x better...
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| You have a fond memory of something, and then someone does a
| REMAKE. A classic or perfect thing doesn't need a remake,
| because almost all the time the shiny version will be subpar.
| Just look at classic movies from the 30s or 60s. Almost all
| the time the remakes are laughingstock like attempts at
| recreating the original.
|
| Just leave the originals alone. If you don't have the nerves
| for playing a very old game in an emulator and doesn't enjoy
| it because the visuals are not appealing, then just play
| something else. Or name your project XYZ and then tell in
| interviews that you asked for permission to copy everything
| and now call it project XYZ.
|
| The trajectory will be:
|
| - look we have created system shock remake
|
| - look this is our new game, you know us, we made the system
| shock remake...
|
| It's like raise dead+necrophilia that results in some new
| abomination later on :D.
| fknorangesite wrote:
| > Just leave the originals alone.
|
| They did. It still exists for you. They haven't Ruined Your
| Childhood(tm).
|
| Get a grip.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| They didn't ruin it. They made something that resembles
| System Shock and it is called System Shock, but it's not
| System Shock anymore.
|
| All I say is play the original (there is the enhanced
| version), then play this one, then talk about it.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| System Shock 2 is better than the original.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| They are both masterpieces.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| This is more like taking a classic film that was only
| available on badly degraded film stock that was rarely
| available to watch, and fully remastering and restoring it
| for release on DVD and blu-ray. The story and all of the
| director's decisions and visions are intact it's just
| cleaned up and much easier to watch today and forever into
| the future.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| That's called the System Shock Enhanced Edition released
| in 2015. This resembles the original, but a lot of stuff
| is remade.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Within a few months there will be diehard fans of the
| classic who will create a mod of the remake that takes
| out the changes from the original. It's inevitable.
| That's the beauty of the mod scene, at least for games
| with big enough fanbases. So maybe wait for that
| eventuality to happen instead of complaining about a
| perfectly good modern new game that has the potential to
| serve as a base for fan projects such as that.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| Only time will tell. May the almighty's blessings guide
| them in their way.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| why do you post like that
| lobf wrote:
| Black Mesa is a remake of one of the best games ever and
| they absolutely nailed it.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| Is it really that good?
| dvngnt_ wrote:
| this year the game and other unreal engine games should be vr
| compatible the VR developer just had a breakthrough which makes
| games 6dof compatible
|
| https://youtu.be/7naAVTGp7mM
| PostOnce wrote:
| I was going to write a post about how System Shock 3 is in
| development, but I'm dismayed by some details I found on
| wikipedia. They had Warren Spector and Paul Neurath on board, but
| maybe funding isn't so easy. I thought System Shock (remake) was
| basically a fundraiser for SS3.
|
| Apparently Tencent owns the rights now, Spector is working on
| something else, and the outlook is no longer great.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Shock_2#Sequel_projects
|
| However, from that page, I also learned this exists:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Shock_Infinite
|
| So I guess I'll be playing System Shock Infinite this weekend :)
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| I never understood why big publishers not throwing money at
| smaller studios and why older game designers are sidelined.
| Imagine Scorsese not getting funding after Goodfellas... mind
| boggling.
|
| It's like a no brainer. Get Warren Spector on board, give him a
| black suitcase and order as many strawberry cakes as he want.
| Let him assemble a small team, and give them 3 years of devtime
| with an established engine, and 20 hours of gameplay max. Let
| it roll.
|
| Nooo, somehow that's not possible when 200 mill usd AAA games
| are coming off the assembly line.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| As much as I'd like to see that, Spector's entire output
| since _Thief 3_ has been _Epic Mickey_ and consulting for the
| abysmal crowdfunded _Ultima Underworld_ spiritual successor,
| and who knows how much involvement he actually had with the
| latter. As legendary as these game designers are, you can
| easily see why big publishers would be leery of their ability
| to reiterate their past success in a completely different
| modern development environment, after all that time.
|
| This is true of other legends as well. Brian Reynolds' entire
| career for the last decade has been _FrontierVille_ at Zynga;
| I would not trust him with a new _Rise of Nations_ nor a new
| _Sid Meier 's Alpha Centauri_. At this point, I'm not sure if
| _anyone_ could be trusted with those franchises of
| yesteryear. On the flip side, the fans gave Chris Roberts one
| of the highest-crowdfunded projects in history and look at
| the state of _Star Citizen_. Heck, even Carmack is more
| interested in VR and other technical challenges than making a
| new _Rage_ , let alone _Doom._
|
| At some point you have to let the past go and hope that new
| designers will rise to the challenge. Hopefully inspired by
| those legends of the past.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| I think these publishers have such a big waterhead, and so
| rigid corpo structure, and so much politics and the like
| going on that is what stands in the way of innovative new
| ideas and some crumbles of money going to the proper
| developers-designers. If I remember right WS always wanted
| to do a third game, but EA (I think they had the rights
| back then) never gave the green light.
|
| Btw, it's a team effort. Most of the time the unknown team
| members matter a lot.
|
| There are ample good indie games/designers pop up every
| year who could use some funding.
| cubefox wrote:
| > This might be one of the best remakes ever made.
|
| High praise for what was already described as one of the best
| games of its time.
| tibbydudeza wrote:
| System Shock and the very underrated Terra Nova: Strike Force
| Centauri.
| shmerl wrote:
| I like it, but I don't think pixelated aesthetic of zoomed in
| textures is really doing anything for me. May be it's just a
| nostalgia nod to hardcore fans of the original game?
| badsectoracula wrote:
| FWIW i've played the original game several times and i don't
| like the pixelated textures either.
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(page generated 2023-07-12 23:02 UTC)