[HN Gopher] Space After Periods (1993)
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Space After Periods (1993)
        
       Author : susam
       Score  : 110 points
       Date   : 2023-07-10 21:36 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (1997.webhistory.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (1997.webhistory.org)
        
       | jononomo wrote:
       | [flagged]
        
         | earthboundkid wrote:
         | Look very closely at these:
         | 
         | One. One.
         | 
         | Two. Two.
        
           | sogen wrote:
           | Look at me!
           | 
           | One. one.
           | 
           | Two.  Two.
           | 
           | It's just a blank Unicode character
        
             | lolinder wrote:
             | This example actually renders for me as triple space--the
             | Unicode character you're using is at least as wide as two
             | spaces in and of itself.
        
             | jey wrote:
             | I see a U+2800 BRAILLE PATTERN BLANK as your second
             | "space". It looks like 6 unfilled Braille dots.
             | 
             | User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_15_7)
             | AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/114.0.0.0
             | Safari/537.36
        
           | jononomo wrote:
           | They both have one space. This forum eliminates double spaces
           | after periods that end a sentence, thereby degrading
           | readability.
        
             | lolinder wrote:
             | It's not this forum, it's the default behavior of HTML
             | unless you specifically opt in to significant white space,
             | which few sites do because it has a tendency to create
             | spurious newlines unless the code is maintained very
             | carefully.
             | 
             | I'd be very curious to know if you have any examples of a
             | website that _does_ preserve multiple spaces after periods
             | --I would suspect that in most cases where you think that
             | is happening, it 's actually because the font handles the
             | extra space.
             | 
             | https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/white-
             | space
        
               | jononomo wrote:
               | Okay, so apparently, HTML has chosen to degrade
               | readability, which is a bummer.
        
               | earthboundkid wrote:
               | Whether it's a bummer or not, the point is this is how
               | every website has worked for the last 30 years.
               | 
               | I find that if you look closely at old books, the spacing
               | is pretty variable. I have one book by my desk from 1895
               | and the spacing after a period is more like 21/2 normal
               | spaces, but I have another book from 1978 and the spacing
               | after period is basically identical to the spacing after
               | a word. There's not much consistency from book to book.
        
               | jononomo wrote:
               | Yeah, it makes sense for HTML -- there is no easy way to
               | differentiate sentence-ending periods from other periods.
               | This is just one of those things that gets worse as
               | technology improves. Another example is phone connections
               | -- phone connections used to be fantastic, and they
               | worked even when the electricity went out, but now we
               | have cell phones, which commonly have terrible
               | connections and are dependent on electricity. Just
               | another example of how advancing technology degrades the
               | user experience in order to achieve other efficiencies.
        
               | earthboundkid wrote:
               | In general, technology makes things worse but cheaper.
               | :-)
               | 
               | A book printed with letterpress is nicer than a laser
               | printed book, and an illuminated manuscript is even
               | nicer! There are some technology shifts where the new
               | thing is strictly better, like DVD to Blu-Ray, but the
               | majority of the time you have give something up to move
               | forward, like losing the ability to record when we left
               | VHS behind.
               | 
               | AI is going to really accelerate the trend by being
               | really bad at a lot of tasks, but good enough to make do
               | with.
        
             | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
             | Like, it's part of the html specification if I'm not
             | mistaken. It's not like HN is doing this deliberately.
             | 
             | Fuck. I don't even know what I'd have to do if I wanted to
             | fake it... is there a double-width space in Unicode?
        
               | sogen wrote:
               | Yes*
               | 
               | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36675856
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | Izkata wrote:
               | You want non-breaking spaces for this. They're the same
               | width as a normal space, but don't collapse together in
               | HTML.
               | 
               | I once encountered a bizarre bug caused by a user whose
               | keyboard was somehow configured to automatically insert
               | these if they added two or more sequential spaces.
               | 
               | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-breaking_space
               | 
               | Unicode A0 is embedded in my mind because of that.
        
               | Groxx wrote:
               | When you start talking _sizes_ rather than for a
               | _purpose_ , most of them are "what fraction of an em are
               | they": https://unicode-explorer.com/articles/space-
               | characters
               | 
               | An "en space" (half-em) is pretty close though: https://e
               | n.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_character#/media/...
               | 
               | And web browsers muddied the water a lot, since rendering
               | two spaces is generally done _by rendering two spaces_ ,
               | unless you're on the web and then have to do something
               | special (some people do!   is pretty common).
               | Personally I think _this alone_ is the biggest influence
               | that trained generations that one space is the majority
               | and therefore the most correct.
               | 
               | ---
               | 
               | I wish they called the zero-width spaces "non-space", so
               | we could have both   (non-breaking space) and &zwsp;
               | (breaking non-space).
        
               | [deleted]
        
         | kstrauser wrote:
         | I have to admit that this is one of the most arrogant things
         | I've read recently. Congratulations!
        
           | showdeadplease wrote:
           | [dead]
        
         | canadianfella wrote:
         | [dead]
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | quotemstr wrote:
       | I usually use two spaces after the end of a sentence because
       | doing so helps my text editor distinguish sentence boundaries
       | from abbreviations.
        
         | taeric wrote:
         | I thought I was specifically taught that this is why you do two
         | spaces. It isn't that you need two spaces after a sentence, per
         | se; but the system has an easier time knowing to do inter
         | sentence spacing instead of title if you do that.
         | 
         | That is, Dr. Smith should have less spacing. I'm guessing there
         | are so few things that that applies to, that most systems that
         | care can just hardcode it nowadays?
         | 
         | Further, I thought any typesetting system would play with the
         | spaces after words to make things pleasant. That is, a space
         | isn't a set width in any typeset thing. That really only became
         | a thing with typewriters.
        
       | thristian wrote:
       | The other day I discovered a font called Elstob that has an "Old-
       | style punctuation spacing" mode that (among other things) adds
       | significantly more space between sentences:
       | 
       | https://psb1558.github.io/Elstob-font/
       | 
       | The documentation for that feature says[1]:
       | 
       |  _When Spacing is set to 1, the spacing between words and
       | sentences and around punctuation marks is a good match for most
       | books printed in the late eighteenth century._
       | 
       | [1]: https://github.com/psb1558/Elstob-
       | font/blob/c9af23d3cbadf111...
        
       | Nifty3929 wrote:
       | I would like to see a greater tolerance for different
       | preferences. I like one space, but totally fine for some people
       | to use two spaces.
       | 
       | It's not their problem if I stab my eyes out with a pencil when I
       | see two spaces.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | throwawaymaths wrote:
         | Imagine having not just two spaces but a whole damn line to
         | emphasize the pauses in text:
         | 
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of...
         | 
         | If two spaces causes you to stab your eyes for this I demand no
         | less than seppuku
        
           | GavinMcG wrote:
           | That seems like an unfortunate tool to have discarded. Right
           | now, I can use vertical separation to structure text, but
           | horizontal separation.... Well, that's far more limited.
           | 
           | Within sentences, there's the dash--either em or space-en-
           | space, depending on where you're from--and there are plenty
           | of other structural options. _Between_ sentences, you 've got
           | the ellipsis, and that's it. The way they're used in the
           | Declaration, in place of paragraph breaks, is helpful even
           | when you're not just trying to save space--for example, to
           | structure a list of short words or phrases without creating
           | the visual separation from the text that comes with using
           | separate lines.
        
             | ChristianGeek wrote:
             | An ellipsis should never be used between sentences; you
             | should be using a semi-colon.
        
               | GavinMcG wrote:
               | No, that's the whole point I'm making. A semicolon is no
               | better than terminal punctuation in creating _visual_
               | horizontal space, which is a tool for communicating
               | semantic structure, but one that we never use. I am not
               | speaking to what is grammatically proper, but rather to
               | what is possible outside of current accepted usage.
        
         | wrycoder wrote:
         | Fully justified text must drive you insane!
        
         | unsignedint wrote:
         | I have no issues with people exercising their personal choices
         | when it comes to the number of spaces after a period. However,
         | I found it to be quite annoying when they began complaining
         | about my preference for a single space and asserting that their
         | method of using two spaces is more correct than mine.
         | Ultimately, I've come to the realization that this is more akin
         | to a matter of personal belief rather than a technicality. It
         | seems nearly impossible to bridge the gap and find a consensus
         | on this issue.
        
       | zrail wrote:
       | [flagged]
        
         | Rhapso wrote:
         | As an engineer with fermi estimation in mind:
         | 
         | Is 10 guaranteed to solve all problems? 99% confidence it will?
         | How much does it cost in weight budget to add some 9s to that?
         | Oh wow tampons are light. 100 it is then.
        
           | fknorangesite wrote:
           | Good first estimate! The next step is introspection:
           | 
           | > Why don't I know the answer to this already, even within an
           | order of magnitude?
        
             | Rhapso wrote:
             | Everybody around me who would find utility with them has
             | non-normal usage patterns (birth control, PCOS,
             | hysterectomy) so there is a pretty high variance in my
             | observations (across individuals and time) and I don't need
             | to actively seek more samples. I just make sure there is a
             | box of tampons around and borrow one to use for wound care
             | when I need one and replace the empty box when requested.
        
       | DanielKehoe wrote:
       | I'm Daniel Kehoe, and I participated in the brief www-talk "Space
       | after Periods" discussion thirty years ago (as Daniel Miles
       | Kehoe).
       | 
       | I wrote a blog post three years ago, "Personal History:
       | Punctuating the Web (1993)," that offers more context and
       | perspective on the discussion [0].
       | 
       | We discussed this on Hacker News three years ago when Microsoft
       | Word began flagging double spaces after a period as errors [1].
       | 
       | That brief discussion thirty years ago still seems to arouse
       | strong feelings for people.
       | 
       | Today, looking back, I'm mostly amused that Guido van Rossum (the
       | developer of the Python programming language) wanted web browsers
       | to collapse multiple spaces to a single space after periods.
       | Python, notably among programming languages, treats whitespace as
       | significant.
       | 
       | [0] https://danielkehoe.com/posts/personal-history-
       | punctuating-t...
       | 
       | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22975299
        
         | slowwriter wrote:
         | To be fair, HTML treating all whitespace as insignificant was
         | absolutely the right call
        
           | cxr wrote:
           | It doesn't treat all whitespace as insignificant. It does, by
           | default (for contexts where `white-space: normal` is in play)
           | collapse how sequences are displayed--namely, that they
           | appear just as if a single space had been used.
        
         | cantSpellSober wrote:
         | > _the developer of the Python programming language wanted web
         | browsers to collapse multiple spaces to a single space_
         | 
         | Those would be _trailing_ spaces, not the whitespace Python
         | considers significant (indentation).
        
           | lolinder wrote:
           | Indentation was very much included in the discussion, but you
           | have to go back to the q2 page:
           | 
           | http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-
           | talk.1993q2/index.h...
        
             | cantSpellSober wrote:
             | I don't see a mention of indentation there. Just:
             | 
             | > _I would like to specify that multiple spaces be
             | interpreted as such_
             | 
             | The response is only
             | 
             | > _Isn 't it a violation of the SGML philosophy_
             | 
             | This seems more relevant:
             | 
             | > _spaces and tabs at the starts of lines are ignored, and
             | extra space after punctuation is handled separately_
             | 
             | http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-
             | talk.1993q2/0470.ht...
        
         | thaumasiotes wrote:
         | > looking back, I'm mostly amused that Guido van Rossum (the
         | developer of the Python programming language) wanted web
         | browsers to collapse multiple spaces to a single space after
         | periods. Python, notably among programming languages, treats
         | whitespace as significant.
         | 
         | It does so by collapsing any amount of space into single INDENT
         | and DEDENT tokens, so I'm not sure what the irony is supposed
         | to be. If the last line started with 8 spaces, Python will not
         | distinguish between the next line starting with 10 spaces and
         | the next line starting with 50.
        
         | fsckboy wrote:
         | I heard about this issue back in the 80's talking to a friend
         | doing an early WYSIWYG word processor development project.
         | Typeset, proportional spaced, yes, same spacing between
         | sentences and words, and if you eyeball typeset books from the
         | precomputer era, that's what you will see.
         | 
         | I also looked it up in Chicago Manual of Style, and one thing I
         | remember is, you want to get your hands on an earlier edition
         | (for geek fun) because they have much more detail about
         | typesetting than they do in later editions. (I don't know what
         | the edition sweetspot is but I found a 1930's copy and I liked
         | it)
         | 
         | > _mostly amused that Guido van Rossum...wanted web browsers to
         | collapse multiple spaces to a single space...Python...treats
         | whitespace as significant._
         | 
         | this is actually pretty funny, thank you
        
           | GoofballJones wrote:
           | I learned to type on typewriters in the late 70s. I was
           | thrown in a typing class in high-school and I thought to
           | myself "this is a useless class, I'm NEVER going to ever need
           | this". Turns out it was one of the best things I learned in
           | high-school.
           | 
           | Anyway, I never used double spaces after periods. My typing
           | teacher would always give me grief for it, but for whatever
           | reason, I just never did it. As you can see, I still don't.
        
             | mikestew wrote:
             | _I was thrown in a typing class in high-school and I
             | thought to myself "this is a useless class, I'm NEVER going
             | to ever need this"._
             | 
             | Interesting, given that I specifically sought out typing
             | class in high school in the late '70s because I was
             | confident that there was going to be a lot of keyboard
             | usage in my future, might as well learn to use it.
             | 
             | And I don't want to hear whinging about subtle mechanical
             | keyboard differences. When you learn at an under-funded
             | rural school with manual typewriters, you also learn to
             | appreciate _anything_ that isn 't making your fingers do
             | mechanical printing. :-)
        
             | someweirdperson wrote:
             | > As you can see, I still don't.
             | 
             | I don't think we can. Or can we?
        
       | perilunar wrote:
       | Spaces are significant, but now we have unicode, we can stop
       | thinking about the _number_ of spaces and start using the correct
       | unicode character for the _type_ of space we want. Unicode has at
       | least 16 different types of space character.
       | 
       | As an experiment, here is some text with differing spaces. I
       | wonder if HN can handle it:
       | 
       | En space between sentences: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet,
       | consectetur adipiscing elit. Praesent eu ullamcorper mi, id
       | dictum nibh. Pellentesque fermentum efficitur viverra. Ut
       | tincidunt ut nunc non viverra. Nunc accumsan ultrices libero ut
       | efficitur. Vestibulum a eros a urna vestibulum tempor. Ut vel
       | sodales tellus. Aliquam enim velit, varius eget mi ut, blandit
       | dictum nulla. Quisque non malesuada felis. Duis sit amet sapien
       | at risus efficitur fermentum. Aenean posuere tempus elit, nec
       | eleifend tellus bibendum a. Suspendisse potenti.
       | 
       | Em space between sentences: Pellentesque semper sed enim a
       | rutrum. Suspendisse iaculis laoreet leo, a tristique lorem
       | tincidunt id. Ut lacinia, sem a sodales fermentum, leo diam
       | elementum elit, vitae egestas risus velit non magna. Curabitur
       | nec ligula quis sem imperdiet rhoncus sit amet a lorem. Donec ut
       | risus sapien. Aenean et nisl quam. Aenean nec interdum metus,
       | quis vulputate enim. Interdum et malesuada fames ac ante ipsum
       | primis in faucibus. Nunc pulvinar molestie imperdiet. Etiam non
       | nisi id leo blandit placerat vel ac ligula. Duis in urna quis
       | erat dignissim pellentesque hendrerit sed sapien. Pellentesque
       | tempor magna eu lacus laoreet tempor. Fusce nec tortor sed urna
       | placerat bibendum eu id mi.
       | 
       | [edit: no, it can't. They work in plain HTML, so I guess the HN
       | form is converting them to plain spaces.]
       | 
       | [edit, the second: try html entities [removed] -- doesn't work
       | either.]
        
         | kortex wrote:
         | > start using the correct unicode character for the type of
         | space we want.
         | 
         | but why
        
           | nutate wrote:
           | from NASA: Space exploration helps to address fundamental
           | questions about our place in the Universe and the history of
           | our solar system.
        
         | Terretta wrote:
         | This made me curious whether HN collapses dashes as well. These
         | all render the same in the text entry box:
         | 
         | - hyphen
         | 
         | - n dash [option -] or [Alt + 0150]
         | 
         | -- m dash [option-shift -] or [Alt + 0151]
         | 
         | Also, these render as 3 spaces or single space wide in the text
         | entry box:
         | 
         | ... three periods
         | 
         | ... ellipsis [opt ;] or [Alt + 0133]
         | 
         | EDIT: So the - - -- work, and can visually suggest what should
         | be happening in one's typography if you do _not_ double space
         | after sentence ending punctuation.
        
           | throw0101a wrote:
           | > _... ellipsis_
           | 
           | One slight annoyance I have on my Mac(s) is that if you have
           | an ellipsis following by a period, you can tell the
           | difference between the two. I would think it's more proper
           | (?) that all the dots transparently flow together: ....
        
         | nomel wrote:
         | I recommend that the space bar be broken up into at least three
         | space buttons, to make this stance practical.
        
           | jacobsenscott wrote:
           | I was going to say you need 5 space buttons to chord all
           | possible spaces, but I guess you can use 3 space buttons in
           | combination with ctrl, (alt|option), and (win|command).
        
         | cwbrandsma wrote:
         | 16 types of space characters...but I don't want to think that
         | hard.
        
           | jerf wrote:
           | The good news is, you don't have to think _that_ hard. A
           | number of them are language specific, or very specific to a
           | particular context.
           | 
           | The bad news is, with European languages having the longest
           | tradition of printed word, they also still have quite a few
           | varieties.
           | 
           | And in a 2023 where even today I can get oohs and aahs from
           | multi-decade white-collar professionals when I show them that
           | you can automatically generate a table of contents for a
           | document if you just use the "Header 1" and "Header 2"
           | formatting stuff correctly, I can't imagine a world where
           | people are routinely entering _multiple types_ of spaces
           | typographically correctly.
           | 
           | (Which type of space is the best to use when holding the
           | space bar down to center something, anyhow?)
        
         | bluepod4 wrote:
         | Explains the lack of emojis
         | 
         |  _sews thread_
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | Axien wrote:
       | Gen-X here. I was always a big fan of two spaces - because that
       | is the way I was taught.
       | 
       | One day, a millennial woman in the office commented an email was
       | from an old person. I asked how she knew. She said two spaces
       | after a period.
       | 
       | That point forward I was a one space person.
        
         | JohnFen wrote:
         | > That point forward I was a one space person.
         | 
         | You shouldn't fold so easily. She gave you a compliment,
         | anyway.
        
         | patrickmay wrote:
         | You'll have to pry that second space from my cold, dead muscle
         | memory.
        
           | jacobsenscott wrote:
           | It's already been done. Almost all email content read through
           | web browsers these days, which do exactly that.
        
         | mturmon wrote:
         | pls also refrain from initial caps and message-terminating
         | periods
        
       | EarthLaunch wrote:
       | Edit: -
        
         | nostrebored wrote:
         | in many contexts punctuation is as unnecessary as an extra
         | space between sentences
        
           | nomel wrote:
           | iwouldclaimthatspacesandpunctuationareneverneededandcomprehen
           | sionismoreaproblemofpracticeratherthanability
        
             | taeric wrote:
             | Turning our language into a comma-free code feels... less
             | than ideal. Doable, for sure. But why?
        
       | santix wrote:
       | https://docs.w3cub.com/latex/_005cfrenchspacing.html
        
       | aj7 wrote:
       | Twitter killed two spaces.
        
       | lolinder wrote:
       | This is a continuation of a discussion on a different page about
       | spaces and tabs in HTML documents [0]. It's actually a much more
       | interesting discussion than this title and the tail end of this
       | conversation would indicate, hinging on a disagreement over
       | whether white space has semantic meaning or is purely
       | presentational.
       | 
       | Terry Allen from O'Reilly argues that white space is significant
       | to the meaning of the text and therefore needs first-class
       | support in HTML, even outside of PRE. Others emphatically
       | consider white space to be a formatting issue that has no place
       | in HTML, which they feel should be _entirely_ presentation-
       | agnostic.
       | 
       | Interestingly, a couple of times people mention the possibility
       | of building in support for TeX and other markup languages to fill
       | the need for precisely-formatted documents. Specifying the
       | presentation of HTML in a separate file (what we know as CSS)
       | doesn't appear to be on anyone's radar yet. I wonder what the web
       | would look like today if that had been the route we took.
       | 
       | [0] http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-
       | talk.1993q2/index.h...
        
         | lisper wrote:
         | Howcananyonearguethatwhitespacehasnosemanticsignificance?
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | patrec wrote:
           | Fortran programmers can!
        
           | Zamiel_Snawley wrote:
           | Funnily enough, I can still understand your message without
           | white space, it is just harder to parse. Doesn't that
           | undercut your statement?
        
             | lisper wrote:
             | Being harder to parse is not a trivial detail, it's the
             | whole ballgame. Written language has a lot of redundancy.
             | That's one of the things that makes it work. The redundancy
             | makes it an error-correcting code so that the information
             | doesn't get dstryed by miner errers. That is what allows
             | you to glean the meaning of a message even without
             | whitespace. Y cn d th sm trck by lmntng vwls (u o eiiai
             | ooa).
             | 
             | Just because you don't completely destroy the message by
             | eliminating whitespace doesn't mean that the whitespace
             | wasn't semantically significant.
             | 
             | [UPDATE] Whitespace is actually a pretty modern innovation,
             | and it is not universal. In old manuscripts the text is
             | often allframmedtogetherlikethis. Also, even in modern
             | German it is common to compose verylongcompoundwords.
        
               | KMag wrote:
               | See also: segmentation in many Asian languages.
               | 
               | Back around 2006, there was an internal collection of
               | quotes from senior Google engineers. There was one from a
               | guy working on a particularly thorny issue with Russian
               | search. He had just finished a project on Thai
               | segmentation, and his response to how things were going
               | with Russian was something like "Great! At least they
               | have words!" (Obviously, he was being deliberately
               | imprecise and understood that obviously Thai has words,
               | just not whitespace-delimited.)
               | 
               | On a side note, the Korean alphabet is well-designed. In
               | particular, teaching children syllabification rules is
               | trivial. Syllables are pre-arranged into squares.
               | Unfortunately, the lack of distinction between r-l, and
               | p-b-f, and restrictions on consonant clusters makes it
               | unworkable as a replacement alphabet for English.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | squirtlebonflow wrote:
             | ivegottogivemyupmostrespecttotherapists
             | 
             | Doesn't that undercut yours?
        
               | lisper wrote:
               | The real trick would be to come up with a string that is
               | actually ambiguous without whitespace. That turns out to
               | be surprisingly challenging.
        
               | throwaway473453 wrote:
               | Isit?
        
               | lisper wrote:
               | Nicely done!
        
         | PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
         | I actually added a DVI (TeX) renderer to Mosaic in 1993 (while
         | working at US CS&E). NCSA/Marc wasn't interested in the patch.
         | If the server said the document was MIME typed <the correct
         | type for DVI>, the regular page renderer was bypassed and code
         | that I ripped from ... not sure where ... drew into the browser
         | instead.
        
       | mproud wrote:
       | No big deal, just some random Marc Andreeson and Tim Berners-Lee
       | comments...
        
         | kmoser wrote:
         | Plus some rando named Guido van Rossum.
        
       | mantella wrote:
       | Until today, I never put it together that Guido van Rossum
       | (python) and Just van Rossum (LettError) were related, though it
       | makes total sense in retrospect. _mind blown_
        
       | someweirdperson wrote:
       | Do whatever you want, but DO NOT put space before punctuation
       | marks. With the exception of space before smileys that are
       | substituting punctuation.
        
         | JohnFen wrote:
         | And don't use smileys as substitutes for punctuation.
        
       | ianburrell wrote:
       | One thing that doesn't get brought up is that there is a
       | difference between typewriter and word processor. One space works
       | best in proportional fonts with typeset work. Two spaces work
       | best in monospace fonts like text editor. The reason is that in
       | typeset, the space after periods is wider than space between
       | words, while in monospace need to put extra space to distinguish
       | sentences. I think that some of the conflict comes from when and
       | where people learned the rule.
       | 
       | Before computers, people used typewriters and were taught to use
       | two spaces after period. Typesetters knew to use the right space.
       | Early computers were mostly monospace. Word processors introduced
       | variable fonts and were smart enough to collapse two spaces.
       | Email and text editors were monospace. The web made everything
       | proportional and collapsed two spaces to one hiding any
       | difference in source. One space has won enough that people use
       | one space in monospace text.
        
         | joegahona wrote:
         | This is covered in the "The PC Is Not a Typewriter"[1], by
         | Robin Williams. (No, not _that_ Robin Williams.) I adjusted
         | from two spaces to one back in 1999 or so, when I read this
         | book, and the adjustment wasn 't as painful as I thought it'd
         | be. I learned on a typewriter in the late '80s.
         | 
         | For some reason, Stephen King uses two spaces between _each
         | word_ in his Tweets.[2] Not sure if this is some statement he
         | 's making or a technical glitch.
         | 
         | [1] https://www.amazon.com/PC-Not-Typewriter-Creating-
         | Profession...
         | 
         | [2]
         | https://twitter.com/StephenKing/status/1678579628686946304?s...
        
       | Groxx wrote:
       | Here's your annual reminder that anyone that says X decision is
       | wrong is wrong, and has been for something like 150+ years.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing
       | 
       | There has never been consistency here. Vote with your fingers,
       | space stuff however you want.
       | 
       | And don't consider web tech to be a _typographical_ decision, it
       | 's just the only technically feasible option if you want to make
       | something whitespace-amount-agnostic so people can indent their
       | html.
        
         | sjoerger wrote:
         | "Vote with your fingers, space stuff however you want."
         | 
         | I believe this is why I see an increasing lack of punctuation
         | or capitalization in online discourse.
        
           | marcosdumay wrote:
           | You would be surprised by how often people ignore those on
           | their verbal discourse.
        
           | ultrarunner wrote:
           | I'm told it's because the period is considered passive-
           | aggressive. I assume it's too formal final; maybe The Kids
           | These Days hold out hope that a sentence might not really be
           | over? At any rate whoever got the McDonald's account embraces
           | it wholeheartedly.
        
             | giraffe_lady wrote:
             | Only when sending a one-sentence text, where the beginning
             | and end of the sentence are clearly the bounds of the text
             | itself. You see periods still between sentences of multi-
             | sentence texts. Sometimes other markers are used like
             | ellipsis or emoji.
             | 
             | I really genuinely like this change for orthography. The
             | feel & sound of spoken language is highly sensitive to the
             | context and formality: you talk differently giving a speech
             | than you do at dinner with your family etc. It's cool that
             | we're adapting the written forms to more completely express
             | the full range of formality that we actually produce
             | written language in now.
             | 
             | The details of orthography are all just convention and
             | tradition anyway. As much as it pains prescriptivists and
             | peaked-in-high-school wellactually pedants the true
             | language is the spoken and writing is merely a tool we use
             | to represent it. These additions make writing a more
             | complete & capable representation.
             | 
             | And from a more CS view it's cool too. We've hijacked
             | sometimes-redundant punctuation to convey nuances of tone
             | and intent. Essentially increasing the "bandwidth" of
             | writing.
        
               | asplake wrote:
               | Similarly for bullet points - no full stop required.
        
         | robnado wrote:
         | I used to put two spaces after sentences because people told me
         | it is the correct thing to do. Now I put one space after a
         | sentence because different people told me it is the correct
         | thing to do. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
        
           | kortex wrote:
           | > When in Rome, do as the Romans do
           | 
           | IOVMEANISOVLDRITELIKEDIS?
        
           | skipkey wrote:
           | For years, I kept my wifi with the passphrase "This is my
           | passphrase. There are many like it, but this one is mine."
           | Without the quotes of course. With two spaces after the
           | period.
           | 
           | At this point I am not going to overcome forty years of
           | muscle memory. I assume whatever tool is doing the rendering
           | will make things right according to the current convention.
        
             | kbutler wrote:
             | Hopefully two spaces after /each/ period!
        
           | mannykannot wrote:
           | Bravo! I like your subtle sense of humor - i.e. not so subtle
           | that it goes right over my head, but barely.
        
         | Narishma wrote:
         | > Vote with your fingers, space stuff however you want.
         | 
         | I prefer tabs to spaces myself.
        
           | kstrauser wrote:
           | Off the island with ya.
        
           | assimpleaspossi wrote:
           | And so it begins...
        
           | kmoser wrote:
           | Yes, but do your tabs indent by two, four or eight spaces?
        
             | patrickmay wrote:
             | My tabs insert spaces.
        
             | mwcremer wrote:
             | No, no. Set your tab stops to one space. Problem solved.
        
             | Izkata wrote:
             | I once jokingly suggested a compromise of 3 spaces, then
             | got curious. Turns out I like it more than 2 or 4, and now
             | use it for all my personal stuff.
        
               | JohnFen wrote:
               | I've seen house programming styles that mandate a tab is
               | 3 spaces, as well as 5. Personally, I have no dog in this
               | fight at all. I'll follow whatever the house style is.
        
             | groovy2shoes wrote:
             | Just enough spaces to reach the next tab stop.
        
             | kmstout wrote:
             | Fibonacci tab stops!
             | 
             | - https://old.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/3m6yhd/fibonacci_
             | ind...
             | 
             | - https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/171031/inden
             | t-y...
        
       | butlersean wrote:
       | despite what many pedants will have you believe, unlike many
       | other languages there is no central authority of how english
       | should be spoken or written. there isnt even a correct spelling
       | of words.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_language_regulators
        
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       (page generated 2023-07-11 23:01 UTC)