[HN Gopher] A Japanese factory that designs clothes on a 40-year...
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A Japanese factory that designs clothes on a 40-year-old computer
[video]
Author : nipponese
Score : 388 points
Date : 2023-07-10 05:14 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.youtube.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.youtube.com)
| kazinator wrote:
| People still use textile? It's so much easier to just texture map
| your avatar.
|
| Oh, but wait, don't tell me; they actually go outside. LOL!
| renegade-otter wrote:
| Japan is fascinating to me because obviously the culture puts a
| huge emphasis on traditions. And that is fine. It also seems to
| me that at some point the fear of not "refreshing" the old ways
| leads to anachronisms like these.
|
| This is not just a one off, as we know - Japan is still a heavy
| (the only?) user of floppy disks and fax machines.
|
| Sometimes traditions need to be revisited - and then retired.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Fax machines have been dying pretty hard over the past 10 years
| though.
| ronakjain90 wrote:
| Keep it simple and stupid
| mattlondon wrote:
| I wonder if at the time this was a bleeding-edge factory that was
| adopting these state-of-the-art practices and it has stayed that
| way since? Or did it only just get the tape cassette in 2003? :)
|
| Interesting. I wonder if non-tape- based things are any more
| efficient, or is the z80 based system peak-tech for weaving.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Probably what you said in your first sentence. At the time of
| manufacture, Z-80 CPU was the standard for controllers like
| that. In 2023, your first design pass would probably be an
| STM32 for real time control and possibly a PC as a UI, or a
| tablet if the UI needed to be portable.
|
| STM32 for real time control and a Linux SoM for GUI/database is
| a pretty common pattern used for industrial control these days.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I heard from some friends that some Chinese factories are still
| using machineries brought by the Japanese (when they invaded
| China) and even Imperial Germany (some 190x machines).
| vincnetas wrote:
| Just to paraphrase a meme "Not a Cell Phone in Sight, Just people
| living in the moment" : "Not a single SaaS in sight, Just people
| producing value"
|
| I was quick to pick SaaS as a target, please suggest any better
| alternatives. I'm trying to convey the idea that technology is
| not the objective, it's a tool to achieve the goal. So if
| cassette tapes are getting you there you don't need a fancy
| software and newest hardware.
| jxramos wrote:
| yes! Sometimes I cry "technology just get out my way already",
| if it isn't going to enable what I want to do, I don't care
| what other stuff it has to offer. I'm on a specific endeavor
| and must build the thing if it doesn't already exist. To quote
| this Microsoft engineer whose name escapes me at the moment,
| nothing is implemented by default.
| justrealist wrote:
| > Just people producing value
|
| You aren't very familiar with Japanese corporate culture.
| masklinn wrote:
| This seems like a middle-size manufacturing company, not
| office jobs where the issue you're referring to is most
| salient.
| bmitc wrote:
| Their comment is reflecting upon the posted video and nothing
| else. Yes, Japan seems to have a rather vapid corporate
| culture in some areas (so do most countries), but Japan is
| also famous for manufacturing very high-quality goods using
| old and repurposed machines and passed down techniques, as
| seen in this video.
| rob74 wrote:
| You'd be surprised to see how much old industrial machinery
| is still being used around the world, even in other
| developed countries. Machines like these are a huge
| investment, so as long as they are still working flawlessly
| (and I imagine that the Japanese take maintenance
| seriously, so the machines will be working flawlessly),
| it's hard to justify replacing them. So they use punch
| cards for the patterns, what's the problem? And I imagine
| the computer system is only needed when new punch cards
| have to be produced, which won't happen _that_ often - for
| existing patterns, they can use the existing punch cards.
| hanniabu wrote:
| > Machines like these are a huge investment, so as long
| as they are still working flawlessly
|
| I worked at a Colgate manufacturing facility. They had an
| NJ plant that had mechanical production lines. They've
| been running for 40 years so by the time i was there they
| were running flawlessly day in and day out and no matter
| what went wrong the maintenance crew knew how to fix it
| right away.
|
| To save costs they shut down that plant and opened up a
| new one in SC with fancy brand new electronic machines
| that were supposed to have much better throughput. It
| took them years to get all the machines working and even
| still the old machines produced more in 8 hours than the
| new ones made in 12 hours. And whenever the was a problem
| with the machine it was always some wonky issue with the
| relays, sensors, and timing and we'd have sometimes days
| of downtime and would need OEMs to come in and fix it.
|
| They wasted millions on that move which was supposed to
| save money and be more efficient. Many were fired/demoted
| from that.
| wpietri wrote:
| > Many were fired/demoted from that.
|
| Did they fire/demote the brain geniuses who kicked this
| off? Because the corporate stories I know like this
| generally involve the responsible parties getting
| promotions for their bravery and forward thinking, while
| the pain falls on the people they forced to work on it
| and who unaccountably failed to implement their perfect
| visions.
| stevezsa8 wrote:
| It's shocking reading stuff like this.
| gottorf wrote:
| I know you probably meant that in jest, but it makes
| sense as we have a sea change between the pre-digital and
| post-digital generations. And this isn't just a "back in
| my day, we knew when to get off the lawn"-type of
| observation; the post-digital cohort is used to copying
| and pasting bits where the new instance is a perfect
| reproduction of the old. Naturally, they think that you
| can copy a NJ factory and paste it in SC, sprinkle in
| some enhancements, and voila! You get a better version.
| But the world of atoms is much messier than the world of
| bits, and in the former even something like getting the
| floor of the factory to be level is a nontrivial task.
| stevezsa8 wrote:
| Maybe this just shows that I have some experience under
| my belt... but I understand that most things take longer
| and cost more than planned.
|
| So the thought of scrapping a working factory with
| decades of fine-tuning already done... pains me.
|
| I worked with one project manager who was straight out of
| school. I couldn't believe that the direction and
| management of multiple teams of engineers was coming from
| someone who was going to make all their rookie mistakes
| on our project... and all the people who hired him
| already left for new jobs, so no consequences for them.
| lost_tourist wrote:
| doesn't surprise me when it costs millions to
| replace/redesign :)
| rewmie wrote:
| > You'd be surprised to see how much old industrial
| machinery is still being used around the world, even in
| other developed countries. Machines like these are a huge
| investment, so as long as they are still working
| flawlessly (and I imagine that the Japanese take
| maintenance seriously, so the machines will be working
| flawlessly), it's hard to justify replacing them.
|
| Case in point: when Russia started it's invasion of
| Ukraine, one of the first things they did was to pillage
| the industrial areas of the regions they controlled to
| take away industrial equipment, including farm vehicles.
| elzbardico wrote:
| Ukraine is piss poor compared to Russia. For years Russia
| provided Ukraine with underpriced gas while Ukraine's
| export prices increased rapidly, but due to the
| dysfunctional governments they had, they never were able
| to take advantage of that. Ukraine historically was an
| agrarian economy that was industrialized with the usual
| Soviet brutality, accompanied by agriculture
| collectivization and the usual mass repression. After the
| fall of the Soviet Union, it inherited a relatively good
| infrastructure and capital stocks, especially in energy,
| but it mostly failed to maintain that. Add to that the
| fact that since 1992, there was only one year when
| Ukraine had a balanced budget. There was a lot of growth
| in the aughts due to the high price of metallurgical
| during this decade, but Ukraine was mostly taking
| advantage of their existing industrial infrastructure
| inherited from the Soviets and failed to diversify and
| sophisticate their economy.
|
| Besides, if the idea is to invade the country to
| incorporate some separatist regions, it doesn't make
| sense to destroy its economic basis and end up with a
| huge refugee problem and a completely deserted land you
| just conquered.
|
| This is basically propaganda for gullible Americans that
| never traveled to Eastern Europe.
| rewmie wrote:
| > Ukraine is piss poor compared to Russia.
|
| I fail to see the relevance of that. Sounds like cheap
| propaganda.
|
| My point was clear: when Russia started it's invasion of
| Ukraine, one of the first things they did was to pillage
| the industrial areas of the regions they controlled to
| take away industrial equipment, including farm vehicles.
|
| HN had a discussion on how John Deere kill switches were
| rendering Russia's pillaging useless as the stolen
| tractors were being remotely disabled once they were
| moved into Russia.
|
| Industrial equipment, even old one, is often used
| extensively in spite of existing latest and greatest
| offers.
| hkpack wrote:
| Although contrary to the popular believe, a lot of
| equipment in Ukraine is of the latest generation. For
| example, a lot of farmers use the latest John Deere
| tractors.
|
| The same is for metallurgy - it was consistently upgraded
| through the years and not outdated in any way.
| bugglebeetle wrote:
| ...as compared to what? American corporate culture's primary
| outputs appear to be poisoning the world's water supply,
| inflating asset bubbles, creating mental health crises, and
| arms dealing. It would seem a net benefit to humanity if we
| were more useless.
| bdhcuidbebe wrote:
| What you described could be summarized as "useless".
| yard2010 wrote:
| Forget about humanity, there are like 100-200 more people
| that can buy a small country that have to have more money
| there
| justrealist wrote:
| OK bud.
| yard2010 wrote:
| You don't have to be snarky it is what it is
| Eisenstein wrote:
| You forgot 'cultural hegemony'.
| kalleboo wrote:
| To be fair, aside from the arms dealing (which I'm probably
| just unaware of), Japanese corporate culture has done all
| of those things as well
| myth2018 wrote:
| No UX-designed systems in sight, just users having a good
| experience.
| raincole wrote:
| > I was quick to pick SaaS as a target, please suggest any
| better alternatives.
|
| JavaScript frameworks would be a candidate.
| goldenkey wrote:
| Those are a psuedo SaaS (Google -Angular, Facebook - React)
| since the framework is funded, evangelized, and pays speakers
| to give talks at conferences. They usually kill the project
| if they can't make enough money off of the market of
| dependencies they created.
| tough wrote:
| Frameworks are just SaaS shovels
| vjust wrote:
| Lets apply some frameworks to it. Pick some "low hanging
| fruit". Apply a "cloud native approach" and engage in Agile
| ceremonies.
|
| Just kidding, couldn't agree more with your observation. Not a
| Phone in sight.
| gregoriol wrote:
| The problem that will occur, and will prevent producing things,
| is that at some point finding parts and people able to repair
| those will be hard or impossible.
|
| I'm not saying that having latest or newest stuff is any
| better, just that using old stuff can bring some problems too.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > at some point finding parts and people able to repair those
| will be hard or impossible.
|
| Maybe, maybe not. If the machine uses the right "legacy"
| parts (a Z80 is a great example, but so is anything belt- or
| gear-driven, etc.), then it's a very good bet those parts and
| the people who are familiar with them will remain available
| for much longer than you or I will be alive.
| masswerk wrote:
| The Z80 and most of the 47xx logic chips are still
| manufactured, though. (Small RAM and ROM chips may become a
| problem, in the near future.)
| Eisenstein wrote:
| This isn't the only place using such equipment, and as long
| as there is a profit to be made someone will supply the
| parts. The only components that can't sit forever on a shelf
| as NOS are (off the top of my head) capacitors and production
| of those isn't going anywhere.
|
| For non-electronic parts: that's why you have a machine shop.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| I used to freelance HW/Firmware development for a small
| company that retrofitted old machine tools with modern
| motion controllers. There is a surprisingly large industry
| out there ready to repair or retrofit whatever old controls
| are on your old machines.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| As long as they haven't been sitting on the shelf since the
| 1950s, any capacitors you have lying around will be fine.
|
| The electrolyte isn't milk. It doesn't go off.
| Eisenstein wrote:
| It does dry out though. Electrolytic can caps are not
| hermetically sealed.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| Over about 50 years, maybe.
|
| Put it this way, I've replaced maybe a dozen "bad caps"
| in equipment in 35 years of repairing high-end musical
| kit, six of which were in one 1970s synthesizer made from
| very cheap parts.
|
| But, I've done very well out of the fashion for "re-
| capping" equipment because I charge 300 quid before I
| even start to consider clearing a spot on the bench for
| stuff that's been "re-capped" before they bring it to me
| to fix.
| masswerk wrote:
| It has been working for 40+ years, it does the job, everybody
| using the system is familiar with it, it's robust (no network
| required), it's exceptionally easy to service and maintain (all
| through-hole technology on a single, comfortably large board),
| and the entire unit (computer, monitor, cassette drive) is
| rated at just 45 W (so it's probably using less than that.)
| Also, it's a beautiful machine adding a bit of joy to the work
| life. - Why should you want to change this?
| duxup wrote:
| My Coldfusion code often makes me ask the same thing.
| rewmie wrote:
| > Why should you want to change this?
|
| Organizations tend to invest in their operations if there are
| significant improvements to be made. This includes things
| like dealing with problems such as the availability of
| cassetes, if the legacy system becomes too old to maintain in
| a cost effective way, if it's still possible to source parts,
| etc.
|
| Digital systems are widespread because they are widespread
| and dirt cheap, and thus the tradeoff of increasing the
| complexity does add value.
| Eisenstein wrote:
| > Digital systems are widespread because they are
| widespread and dirt cheap
|
| They also churn, and finding people who can (and will) work
| on legacy systems isn't easy either. Get rid of something
| that worked for 40 years because everyone uses this other
| thing (but will use something else 10 years from now that
| we can't predict) is dumb unless there is a very valid
| reason.
| oxfordmale wrote:
| But surely this needs to be upgraded to run on a cloud hosted
| Kubernetes instance? With Karpenter to dynamically scale up
| an down resources as needed? Supported by a ten people
| Infosec/SRE team
| throw_5202 wrote:
| It's so frustrating to talk to Kubernetes enthusiasts.
|
| enthusiast: if you'll migrate service X from a small sets
| of VMs to K8s cluster (which will take N man-moths because
| of reasons) it will auto-scale
|
| Old grumpy man: but the the load is low and predictable we
| don't need autoscale and if load will grow we will just
| create two more VMs
|
| enthusiast: auto-scaling will save time in the distant and
| unlikely future and CTO agrees that K8s is the best way to
| run software so you have to migrate anyway
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| We are running a busy self service ERP for growing 400k
| employees, on a single database instance for 7 years now.
| Currently at 256gb ram, 8tb database, 32 P9 cores. I got
| 99 problems but the single database server ain't one of
| them!
| giovannibonetti wrote:
| Parent was probably talking about the application server,
| which is the typical example of K8s usage, whereas most
| databases don't fit well there and are usually separate
| from the K8s cluster.
| benglish11 wrote:
| Yeah. They must be. I've had several k8s enthusiast
| dissuade from putting a db in k8s for performance
| reasons. This may change overtime but I believe there is
| a performance bottleneck in disk I/o (or at least that's
| how it was explained to me)
| mschuster91 wrote:
| That _really_ depends on your k8s environment. If you 're
| running on bare metal and use host bind mounts for
| storage, you won't have a problem. But as soon as you
| introduce shared storage it gets messy...
| tjoff wrote:
| Doesn't that defeat the promise of k8 in the first place?
|
| Because then it won't scale.
|
| And the moment you do you run into other bottlenecks.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Meh, not having to worry about configuring load balancers
| and letsencrypt alone is worth the effort to get k8s
| running.
| mysterydip wrote:
| Just curious, what backup/replication/disaster recovery
| solution(s) are you running with that?
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Used to run Tivoli Storage Manager, now Commvault. Backup
| can be used for certain type of issues that are isolated
| to the database.
|
| For DR, Entire stack is being continually synced with a
| set of hot server in separate datacentre. We run a fully
| DR exercise yearly and it works well. It's a fairly
| proprietary AIX / DB2 method though so not sure you'd
| find value unless you're using the exact same technology
| stack :-/
| Mister_Snuggles wrote:
| We've just migrated our ERP from a regular deployment on
| VMs into Kubernetes. We have a very bursty self-service
| component, so being able to scale up easily for the week
| we need it is quite nice. We've taken advantage of this
| ability multiple times and seen great success each time.
|
| We're not running the DB in Kubernetes though.
| perryizgr8 wrote:
| VM deployment has a drawback though. If the machine runs
| out of memory, it will lock up (at least that's my
| experience with EC2). And then you need to set up some
| sort of health checks and auto scaling (!) for EC2 based
| on those health checks. This is much more cumbersome and
| fragile than just containerising the app and setting it
| up in a k8s cluster which will automatically take care of
| this scenario.
|
| Also, deploying a new build on VMs is extremely manual
| compared to k8s, unless again you set up some sort of
| home brew rube Goldberg machine to auto deploy. It's just
| way better to use k8s in tandem with a simple GA
| workflow.
| stephenhuey wrote:
| I think grumpy old man knows about the drawbacks with
| VMs, but grumpy old man also knows that for his
| particular service k8s has drawbacks. Grumpy old man is
| thinking that if his particular service goes down, some
| users just tell him it's not working and it's not a huge
| problem like people are losing $10 million per hour
| because of it. And in the event that happens sometime in
| the next 23 months (if it happens at all) he'll just do
| that little manual process for a couple more VMs, and
| that's all the time he'll spend on it. Contrast that with
| the time it would take to get it ready for k8s and keep
| someone around who understands k8s well enough to take
| care of it, even though their need for it might be so
| low.
| ChainOfFools wrote:
| And grumpy old man also knows that compared to the 5-year
| overhead costs of some overcomplicated k8s system, it's
| quite reasonable to overprovision the bejesus at the colo
| bare metal>hypervisor layer as cheap insurance.
| fho wrote:
| Every time I read something like this I think that there
| has to be a tipping point were a well-written (i.e.
| compiled, not interpreted) solution running on a beefy
| server has to more cost efficient than running the same
| thing spread over several containers.
|
| Definitely not an expert, but I get the impression that
| this point is a lot higher that most people assume it is.
| toast0 wrote:
| VMs are nice when you can't fill a machine with a single
| task (plus whatever redundancy). Once you get to a single
| machine, you want to scale up that one machine; you can
| go a long way where scaling up is cheaper than scaling
| out. But at some point, scaling out gets cheaper.
|
| I'm not sure where the check points are now, but typical
| points where cost jumps are desktop -> server socket,
| single socket -> two sockets, two sockets -> four
| sockets, four -> eight sockets. AFAIK, AMD EPYC isn't
| offered at more than two sockets, and going to four
| sockets used to be possible off the shelf but very
| expensive, and eight sockets was very expensive if off
| the shelf or very expensive because custom engineering.
| Sometimes ram costs go way up for the highest density
| too.
| x86x87 wrote:
| Spoiler alert: a well written application on a beefy
| server almost always beat the k8s rube Goldberg machines
| on cost. I still don't get why people refuse to think for
| themselves and just jump on the latest hype train.
|
| K8s makes little sense unless you run on bare-metal. Once
| you jump to vms you are injecting another abstraction
| layer and take on a herculean level of ops without
| understanding what you're getting into.
| seper8 wrote:
| create two more vms? just give it some more
| cores/ram/network/disks...
| reginaldo wrote:
| Quote them some Henry David Thoreau[1]: "Why should we
| live with such hurry and waste of life? We are determined
| to be starved before we are hungry. Men say that a stitch
| in time saves nine, and so they take a thousand stitches
| today to save nine tomorrow. As for work, we haven't any
| of any consequence."
|
| [1] From Walden: read at
| https://www.gutenberg.org/files/205/205-h/205-h.htm
| rewmie wrote:
| > Old grumpy man: but the the load is low and predictable
| we don't need autoscale and if load will grow we will
| just create two more VMs
|
| That's perfectly ok, if your deployment costs are
| irrelevant and/or your company gladly pays up your
| infrastructure costs without a second thought.
|
| This is not the case in some organizations, and toggling
| a setting to auto scale a deployment can automatically
| save you thousands of dollars per month.
|
| Would you still be so casual about infrastructure costs
| if you had to bankroll the extra capacity you need to add
| to your baseline to support peaks?
|
| The decision process involved in managing your single-box
| deployment is not the same that goes in managing global
| deployments with dozens of instances per region. Cloud
| providers charge a premium, and that premium is a lot.
|
| It's like the thermostat in your office. If you're just
| running an AC in a single room then you can just set it
| to full blast to keep it day and night at a certain
| temperature. Once there's a decision to cut costs then
| you start to talk about the best time to turn off/turn on
| a AC unit.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Their entire point was that their load was static, and
| you've immediately started talking about how it changes
| constantly.
| zo1 wrote:
| The irony is the last time I fell for this
| "SRE/K8s/Platform Engineering" crap, they promised auto-
| scaling and used it as a motivation for the tech. Yet
| when the time came, and services inevitably needed to
| scale due to load, they had to manually log in to
| increase some random config to let it grow.
| yard2010 wrote:
| Don't forget rewriting the code in Rust because it's faster
| and type safe! Or nodejs with typescript because it's type
| safe
| rewmie wrote:
| > Don't forget rewriting the code in Rust because it's
| faster and type safe!
|
| I also enjoy piling on Rust fanboys,but those of us who
| had to go through late night troubleshooting sessions to
| track issues that were ultimately caused by use-after-
| free issues do tend to be vulnerable to Rust's memory
| safety siren's song
| CodeSgt wrote:
| Typescript is one of the few additional layers of
| complexity that I truly feel is _usually_ worth it. The
| exceptions being: a) if you have a complete or near-
| complete system that functions as intended with no major
| changes planned for the foreseeable future. And b) the
| system you're writing is small, fairly self-contained,
| and the team isn't already familiar with Typescript.
|
| In any other situation I firmly believe the benefits
| Typescript brings very quickly outweigh the small amount
| of added complexity.
| masswerk wrote:
| Arguably, 8-bit BASIC is type-safe, as well. :-)
| bitwize wrote:
| 10 DEFINT A-Z
| patates wrote:
| Totally non-opinionated tried and tested fact that all
| humanity knows: Anything that doesn't have discriminated
| unions cannot be used productively.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Excellent choice of term.
|
| I've been a full-stack web developer for over a decade
| across multiple companies and this is the first time I've
| seen the phrase "discriminated unions".
|
| And the wikipedia article is horrendous. It starts with
| the following sentence and gets worse from there.
|
| > In computer science, a tagged union, also called a
| variant, variant record, choice type, discriminated
| union, disjoint union, sum type or coproduct, is a data
| structure used to hold a value that could take on several
| different, but fixed, types.
|
| It uses lots and lots of words to explain something
| that's very simple. If you don't already know what it is,
| you can't figure out which words are important.
|
| Then after all of the theory, it dives into a binary tree
| example which has to be the worst possible way to explain
| it. If you haven't implemented a binary tree before, you
| don't know any idea what you're looking at. It didn't
| help that I implemented a linked list in college.
|
| Also, the choice of language ensures you have no idea
| what the types are. I completely missed the first example
| was self-referential.
|
| It's like parody of a function programmer writing an
| explanation for anyone who isn't a functional programmer.
| agentultra wrote:
| "Simplicity is a great virtue but it requires hard work
| to achieve it and education to appreciate it." --
| Djikstra.
|
| I've been programming in some form or another since the
| late-80s. I've been paid to write code for other people
| for over twenty years. I haven't gone to university.
|
| Maybe it's because I started back in BASIC, assembler,
| and later C that I know what that term is and have
| encountered it in various languages and forms several
| times since?
|
| The problem with wikipedia definitions is that they have
| to be _the definition_. Some one like me would expect a
| link to the definition and not a tutorial. They 're not
| written to take into account that you've been a
| professional programmer and have never been exposed to a
| computer science curriculum nor are they written for
| laypersons who don't know anything about programming.
|
| It's a similar problem for functional programmers trying
| to explain functors, monoids, and monads: these are not
| terribly complicated abstractions but catering your
| explanation to the various audiences out there is
| incredibly difficult. The definitions sounds like
| gibberish... but with effort and education it is possible
| to understand and appreciate it.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| You could edit the wiki page.
| bentcorner wrote:
| Care the elaborate? I'm not challenging you I'd just like
| to learn more. I recently transitioned from writing C++
| to Typescript and probably haven't fully grokked the TS
| way.
| masswerk wrote:
| Also, it's really unfair to the ransomeware folks! They
| need to make a living, too!
| usrbinbash wrote:
| I think this is less a case of
|
| "don't use new tech if you don't have to"
|
| and more a case of
|
| "These are highly specialized weaving machines that were build
| decades ago around using punched cards, and whatever benefit by
| speedup in process we would get from replacing their ancient
| control system with a modern one, would be dwarfed by the cost
| of modifying them to use that control system."
|
| Or to say this with slightly less words:
|
| Replacing software and a couple of computers is cheap, compared
| to replacing room-sized industrial machinery.
| rewmie wrote:
| > (...) would be dwarfed by the cost of modifying them to use
| that control system."
|
| This should be the top comment. Cost is a critical factor. I
| would also stop riding the bus and drive a Ferrari to work if
| that option costs as much as a bus ticket. As it doesn't then
| I'm going to stick with the bus, but this does not make it a
| superior choice.
| vincnetas wrote:
| some would argue that bus is better for commuting than
| ferrari ;)
| hnlmorg wrote:
| Exactly this.
|
| Furthermore, it's very common for factories to run older
| equipment because the cost of upgrading is higher, riskier,
| and shutting the factory down to do the upgrades comes with
| its own losses as well.
|
| It's also worth noting that there was also modern computers
| in that video too. The system they used to "digitally
| preview" what the weave would look like. But that is a
| separate system from the ones that interface with the weaving
| machines and thus very easy and cheap to upgrade.
| fgededigo wrote:
| The patterns are read using a Z80 Sharp MZ computer (MZ-80K?)
| from 1979. Nice
|
| This channel (Byte Attic) have a restoration video:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiAL5LCQ7Ds
| masswerk wrote:
| It's definitely a Sharp MZ-80K.
|
| https://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=174
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_MZ
|
| Edit, regarding the video: It should be mentioned that the
| parts found in late 1970s and early 1980s computers were
| usually of quite good quality (things like capacitors were also
| more expensive then) and modern parts are not necessarily
| better or more reliable. "Shotgunning" all capacitors doesn't
| necessarily improve things. E.g., mine works perfectly fine
| without changing a single part. This particular machine, shown
| in the video, was in a bit of a rough state, though.
| azubinski wrote:
| They make kimonos.
|
| I don't know the specific requirements for kimono fabrics, but I
| suspect there are. Accordingly, they use special weaving
| machines. These machines are clearly made to order in extremely
| limited quantities. Tape cassettes and punched tapes are
| attributes of the control subsystem of these machines.
|
| For fabric design, they use Photoshop (is it like Photoshop?) and
| a completely modern PC.
|
| That is, they do everything right and in the right way. There is
| no point in changing machines if the machines are doing their
| job, especially if they are doing their job according to unique
| requirements.
|
| Upgrading this system just for the sake of upgrading will either
| bankrupt the company or lead to the creation of something
| completely different that is clearly not wanted by consumers.
|
| But here's what's really interesting - what heads are in their
| tape recorders and what kind of tape do they use in cassettes,
| that all this can withstand the production cycle? This is really
| impressive.
| alexchevsky wrote:
| AFAIK, punch cards were used in the textile industry long before
| computers came to town. It's just very convenient to map
| patterns. If it ain't broken, don't fix it:)
| gregoriol wrote:
| It might not be broken, yet, but when it breaks you'll not be
| able to find parts or people with knowledge for very old
| devices like this...
| kernal wrote:
| When it does break, you can rest assured a Rust rewrite is
| guaranteed.
| [deleted]
| Legogris wrote:
| > _[deleted]: If anyone (white hat) can hack this place - upload
| some really beautiful patterns that certain [cosplay
| /furry/pokemon/whatever] types would love then have those
| communities purchase these patterns and keep this going._
|
| I live by a different Japanese small town famous for its textile
| industry and there's at least one place still similarly using
| punch cards and tape. They exhibited some of it and a
| contemporary art piece made using it during the annual Fuji
| Textile Week last year.
|
| Separately I also met an artist who's doing binary-hacked glitch
| embroidery and knitting with older machines in the area. I think
| they have stuff for sale from time to time and would be open for
| commissions. There's some pokemon/otaku/tech-related stuff if you
| dig through their insta.
|
| https://nukeme.nu/tagged/Glitch%20Embroidery
|
| https://glitchknit.jp/
| flippinburgers wrote:
| This is really beautiful.
| sheepscreek wrote:
| Before anyone dismisses the Japanese for using old tech - whether
| it's fax machines or funny looking flip phones, I'll say that
| it's truly admirable of them to always focus on the problem than
| getting excited over new tech.
|
| Has that prevented them from advancing as a society? No. Has that
| prevented new innovations? Certainly not. This has likely
| prevented a lot of devices from being decommissioned and adding
| to our recycling woes and landfill. For contrast, a typical North
| American company refreshes all computers every 3 years. Imagine
| that.
|
| I am sure that where it matters, companies are using newer
| tooling, but where the benefits are minuscule - there's no
| pressure to change. Japanese people can take comfort in knowing
| their favourite hardware will be supported for a very long time.
| patrec wrote:
| > Before anyone dismisses the Japanese for using old tech -
| whether it's fax machines or funny looking flip phones, I'll
| say that it's truly admirable of them to always focus on the
| problem than getting excited over new tech.
|
| Excluding totalitarian communist monarchies, the Japanese are,
| human-capital adjusted, about the least productive people on
| earth. So they are not actually "focusing on the problem".
|
| > Has that prevented them from advancing as a society? No.
|
| The US pumped out a number of popular and populist movies and
| books in the 80ies and 90ies that betray a real fear of being
| overtaken by Japan. The notion seems completely ridiculous
| nowadays, and a glance of the GDP development of both countries
| over the last four decades will immediately make clear why.
|
| > Has that prevented new innovations? Certainly not.
|
| So what important innovations have come out of Japan in the
| last 40 years?
|
| Japan has a lot of admirable qualities, but a pragmatic focus
| on productivity and innovation is not one of them.
| gen220 wrote:
| One point, I would be curious what the numbers would look
| like if you subtract immigrants from the US figures (since
| Japan has effectively no immigration).
|
| Stepping back... having higher "productivity" or "GDP growth"
| does not make a cut-and-dry "winner". Everything is a trade-
| off.
| sheepscreek wrote:
| Video games (Sony, Nintendo). Manga, Anime!
| wazzer wrote:
| have you got any sources for those claims? I'd be interested
| in learning more!
| [deleted]
| patrec wrote:
| Productivity:
|
| https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?QueryId=107229
|
| Human Capital (let's take Pisa scores as a proxy):
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_S
| t...
|
| GDP growth, JPN vs US
|
| https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/national-gdp-constant-
| usd...
|
| (Worth pointing out that the US population has grown by
| ~1/3 whilst Japan has remained about constant, so per
| capita the effect is not as pronounced)
| patrec wrote:
| P.S. Movies:
|
| Great example: https://youtu.be/Km6bFBSVty4?t=74
|
| https://www.pastposters.com/details.php?prodId=4514
| https://filmandfurniture.com/2014/09/blade-runner-design-
| whi...
|
| Books: Neuromancer etc.
|
| Good compilation:
|
| https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JapanTakesOve
| rTh...
| genezeta wrote:
| I'm not sure why the reference, but you _probably_ mean
| Neuromancer.
| patrec wrote:
| Indeed, fixed.
| sheepscreek wrote:
| I think there's a fundamental difference in how the two
| societies work which is at play here.
|
| In North America, we are largely driven by monetary benefits.
| Everything is done to optimize profits, that eventually
| translates to a fatter paycheque for the CEO. That thinking
| trickles down. There's only one hard rule, don't break any
| laws. Everything else is game.
|
| At the very bottom, you generally have people that have been
| marginalized. The society has written them off. They work many
| jobs to merely survive. I'll save more on that for another day.
|
| In comparison, Japanese society is driven by honour. Executives
| are less likely to take decisions solely for generating demand,
| through innovative marketing or trickery. People work their
| entire lives for the same company - that looks after them. The
| proverbial "salaryman".
|
| This kind of motivation creates more clarity on the end
| goal/purpose, which leads to more innovation. When you're not
| chasing the golden goose and are driven by honour/respect,
| you're more likely to be focused on the customer and what's
| truly in their best interest. Some NA companies do this too -
| but it's not a trait we particularly value above all else and
| is far far from being the norm.
|
| The genuine concern for another being, even in business, is
| embedded in Japanese culture. Whether it's being on time, or
| masking when you're sick to protect others around you. Truly
| fascinating and admirable (though not without trad-offs).
| vjust wrote:
| Well put.
| stevezsa8 wrote:
| This was interesting to read. Is it based on experience of
| living in Japan, or research?
|
| I found the part about companies looking after the employee
| really interesting.
|
| Having worked entirely in Europe, I've found most managers
| screwing over subordinates. I've encountered plenty of bully
| managers, never one who seemed to genuinely care.
| evilos wrote:
| Patrick (patio11) has some great blogs about working in
| Japan and the culture, if you're interested. I found this
| one insightful and very entertaining:
|
| https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-
| japan...
| turmacar wrote:
| That last little "(though not without trad-offs)" is doing
| a _lot_ of heavy lifting.
|
| Not that there isn't some general truth to what they're
| saying, but it's definitely the rose-tinted glasses 'how it
| should work' view of Japanese corporate culture.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > dismisses the Japanese for using old tech - whether it's fax
| machines or funny looking flip phones
|
| I agree, but those are interesting examples because they're not
| unique to Japanese culture. Fax machines common enough in the
| US for them to be continue to be useful, and I see more and
| more people using flip phones as time goes by.
| userbinator wrote:
| There's a significant amount of heavy machinery made in the late
| 19th/early 20th century still in use in the US too, although I
| suspect they're more like the Ship of Theseus now. The cost of
| replacement (especially for highly specialised machines), and the
| cost of downtime (lost production), strongly biases the decision
| towards maintenance rather than replacement.
| marstall wrote:
| cool, what are some of them?
| Loughla wrote:
| I can speak to one machine - my father has been a machinist
| for 30+ years. In his custom shop they have a vertical metal
| lathe that was built in something like 1870 (and is big
| enough to park a car on the table, by the way). It has been
| retrofitted with new jaws, a new table, motor instead of belt
| power, and electronic controls. But the core machine is still
| very much from the 1870's. If you strip the electronics off,
| you can still hand control it like they would've then.
|
| I would imagine this kind of thing is tucked away in small
| shops all across the country.
| uraura wrote:
| The punch card is the "design". From the video, it isn't user
| friendly to edit on terminal. (btw, it is rare to see full
| English UI in Japan) They can just replace the part to create the
| punch card. But the textile machine is totally fine to keep
| consuming punch card.
|
| Tape is fine too but it is risky because factory may stop
| creating tape.
| dazhbog wrote:
| I recently bought some 25+ year old DOS PCB pick and place
| machines[1]. These machines are basically considered scrap (by
| some) but they allow me to assemble a ton of boards
| automatically.
|
| Its incredible how these machines achieve so much with <64MHz
| CPUs
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27JxtoDPnTI
| koalacola wrote:
| What do you do with them?
| stevezsa8 wrote:
| Using them to assemble more pick-and-place machines of course
| :]
| perihelions wrote:
| In case anyone was unaware, textiles were the original domain of
| punch cards [0]. (And the mechanical loom was an antecedent of
| and inspiration for the first general-purpose computer; and not
| coincidentally Babbage's concept, in the 1830's (!!), was to
| input machine code via punch card [1]. _" We may say most aptly
| that the Analytical Engine weaves algebraic patterns just as the
| Jacquard-loom weaves flowers and leaves"_ -Ada Lovelace (What a
| lovely metaphor!))
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card#History
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_engine
| throwawayc7de59 wrote:
| Jacquard looms are also still in use in modern Japan.
|
| Here's a video of a multi-story Jacquard loom. You can see the
| punch cards being fed up to the story above.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB9pRRr_MvY
|
| You can see the products that they make here:
|
| https://nishimura-orimono.jp
| 93po wrote:
| learned new word today, thanks! (antecedent).
|
| > The Oxford English dictionary defines the word antecedent as
| a thing that existed before or precedes another. Precedent, on
| the other hand, is defined as an earlier event or action which
| serves as an example or guide.
| perihelions wrote:
| You're welcome! I actually learned that word from _Morrowind_
| ; I can't remember if I've seen it in print anywhere else.
| greggsy wrote:
| I've only just noticed the coincidental connection between
| Ada's surname and the lacemaking machinery that was the target
| of many Luddites.
| tough wrote:
| You noticing made me research a bit more and found this
| article in case you or anyone else might be interested too
| https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/doing-good-
| science/ada-...
| perihelions wrote:
| (Sorry if this is too far off-topic or trite, but I had the fun
| idea that cloth going through a loom is also a type of
| sequential-access tape storage. If woven from conductive
| threads, a read-head is nothing more than testing "does this
| thread form a closed circuit?", and a write-head is the loom
| operation of "mechanically transpose these two threads". If you
| can scroll cloth non-destructively forwards and backwards,
| that's the core of an electromechanical Turing machine).
| __ __ _____ __X__ _____ | | |
| | [open] [closed]
| [deleted]
| froh wrote:
| also loom fault detection was the first successful business of
| toyota, before they started automobiles. specifically Toyota
| invented a mechanism which would stop the loom if a single
| thread would rip anywhere.
|
| and the intuition that halting production if a fault is
| detected in car manufacturing goes back to that experience.
|
| and the offspring of that, the "Toyota production system"
| inspired lean. which inspired agile. and Kanban also is core of
| the TPS...
| [deleted]
| crazytony wrote:
| If you are in Japan, I would highly suggest you visit the Toyota
| museum in Nagoya. Toyota started as a loom manufacturer and the
| museum has a ton of working artifacts (I recall one is from the
| 1600s).
|
| They have a tour that shows you the full evolution of the loom
| technology including one operating by punch cards.
|
| I had no idea until I visited the museum shortly before COVID
| gregjw wrote:
| Robust enough to keep working, so why replace it.
|
| If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| The Old School is the Best School.
|
| Some problems don't need to be refactored, re-implemented,
| upgraded, and put in the cloud with a handy mobile app for your
| convenience.
| tdyfhfhf wrote:
| Really bad/misleading/factually-incorrect headline. They use a
| 40yo computer to control an industrial machine for making cloth,
| not to design clothing. Which is pretty common.
| somedude895 wrote:
| The YT channel seems to be run by a Japanese, so it's probably
| not malicious.
| yakubin wrote:
| The title on YT it autotranslated by YT. If you change UI
| language in your account settings on Google/YT, the title of
| the video will change as well. Truly horrible, but in-
| character for Google when it comes to localisation.
| nipponese wrote:
| Agree. The original title was "Japanese textile factory still
| uses tape cassettes and punch cards". When I woke up in the
| morning it was changed (by a mod?).
| tagawa wrote:
| The title change confused me too, and seems to be happening
| more often. Feels like a net-negative to me.
| girishso wrote:
| Pretty sure similar punched cards are used in Indian textile
| companies even today.
| bell-cot wrote:
| First Reaction: "Secure by default, and zero remote holes
| since..."
| wslh wrote:
| Also, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Or "If it works, don't
| touch it."
| jassyr wrote:
| There is something comforting about machines whirring, knocking,
| click clacking. The physical card printed, cut, and handled by
| hands. There should be a name for that feeling, like being in an
| old book store, being able to touch everything, read the books,
| flip them back and forth.
| syslog wrote:
| Similar vibe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35040547
| nipponese wrote:
| OP here. How/why was the post title changed?
| poplet wrote:
| Mods change titles all the time here, unfortunately...
| Sometimes for the worst
|
| Its far from the only thing that they constantly change too
| poplet wrote:
| Mods change titles all the time here, unfortunately...
| Sometimes for the worst
| taoufix wrote:
| I didn't know Brother made sweing machine, I though they only
| make printers.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| They also make CNC milling machines and drill presses.
| kernal wrote:
| The 40 year old computer is the irrelevant part. The
| craftsmanship and attention to detail, by these women, is the
| real story.
| masswerk wrote:
| It's never wrong to use a Sharp MZ-80K - what a beautiful
| machine! (BTW, there had been an actual 80-column punched card
| reader available for this.)
|
| It may be worth mentioning that the tape storage of the Sharp MZ
| family of computers is exceptionally fast. E.g., transferring MP3
| encoded media files won't do. This is also, why floppy disks were
| never a big thing on that platform, as tape was deemed good
| enough.
|
| The Sharp MZ-80K (as indicated by its name powered by a Z80
| microprocessor) was originally sold as a kit computer, but,
| unlike the more common variety, it came in larger pre-assemblies,
| like the entire monitor assembly, etc. (No soldering required.)
| Outside of Japan, it was usually sold fully assembled, often with
| RAM already populated to the full complement of 48KB.
| oflebbe wrote:
| Had an Sharp MZ-731 back in the days. I was able to exchange
| data with an Sharp MZ-80K from a friend by changing the baud
| rate of the recording. IIRC Sharp MZ 700 was faster, you could
| actually hear the different pitch on an audio cassette player.
| cesaref wrote:
| I rather liked the MZ-80K, having spent a bit of time with it
| as a kid in the early 80s. I was attending a prep boarding
| school, for kids from 8 through 13 (can't imagine anyone
| sending their kids to boarding school aged 8 any more! How
| times have changed) and one of the pupils had this machine. We
| spent quite some time playing Towering Inferno on it...
|
| I seem to remember the MZ-80A having a better keyboard. I don't
| know if I ever used one, or just saw pictures in computer
| magazines of the time.
| masswerk wrote:
| Yes, there was also a later version of the MZ-80, the MZ-80C,
| which featured a more conventional keyboard. But, I think,
| the original one is quite beautiful (while, admittedly, not
| that usable) and it reminds of a time, when it wasn't all
| that clear that consumer computers should have typing
| keyboards. (Mind that not everybody was trained in touch
| typing, and this was pretty much a new beginning.)
|
| BTW, I see that the machine in the video has kanji legends on
| the keyboard, which isn't found on the models that were sold
| in Europe. The latter feature upper and lower-case
| characters, which is switched by a special "SML/CAP" key (not
| the SHIFT key, which is for graphics characters!), a key that
| shows kanji markings on the domestic model. (So, I guess, the
| original, domestic model was Latin upper-case/kanji without
| lower-case?) Does anyone know more about this?
| opan wrote:
| >I think, the original one is quite beautiful (while,
| admittedly, not that usable)
|
| https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/images/large/5
| 3...
|
| Is this the keyboard we're discussing? What I see is
| ortholinear, and with a spacebar that's a more reasonable
| size. If anything, we've largely regressed. Only keyboard
| enthusiasts have keyboards like this nowadays. Anything off
| the shelf has the same crap layout more or less now. Laptop
| and UMPC manufacturers don't care to innovate with the
| keyboard. (Except for the MNT Pocket Reform)
| masswerk wrote:
| Here are some more detailed images (mind the clear key
| caps with inlays):
| https://www.retromobe.com/2019/10/sharp-mz-80k-1979.html
|
| The keys can be a bit "squeaky", though, and, at times, I
| find the cursor keys annoying (which is due to training
| and muscle memory from other keyboards). I once wanted to
| quickly edit a Christmas themed image, using all those
| fancy graphics characters, and kept failing over the
| cursor keys all the time... :-)
|
| But, yes, it could have been a fresh start all over.
| There were even a few alphabetically ordered ortholinear
| keyboards (especially on the pocket computer variety,
| since you wouldn't touch type on those anyway), as
| manufacturers thought this may be more accessible and
| mechanical constraints didn't apply anymore.
|
| Also, worth a visit, the entire article at
| oldcomputr.com, showing the assembly with all the various
| components: https://www.oldcomputr.com/sharp-mz-80k-1978/
| ! (This also mentions, _" It's a bit hard to get used to
| the keyboard."_ :-) )
| piyushpr134 wrote:
| Japan has one of the most legacy tech as they probably automated
| them first and an ageing population probably is resistant to
| change. They still use fax and telegrams quite a lot
| YetAnotherNick wrote:
| Idk about others but I would like to have a fax, or even a
| email where it would cost people to send me mail for direct
| access to me.
| _def wrote:
| That's an interesting take. I always thought in Japan they have
| this sentiment of "it's good enough" for machines because in
| comparison it seems like a lot of old tech like this is still
| around over there. And I really love that, a lot of modern
| (software) engineering seems like an economic scam to me that
| really isn't necessary. Also, I bet the system shown here (once
| loaded) is super responsive. I keep crying over weird and
| sluggish web/Elektron interfaces I have to deal with every day
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| > Also, I bet the system shown here (once loaded) is super
| responsive. I keep crying over weird and sluggish
| web/Elektron interfaces I have to deal with every day
|
| You're probably right, but the actual software in only a
| small part of the process here. People have to go and
| manually cut the punch cards once produced for example, so it
| turns into an extremely slow and inefficient process overall.
|
| That said, would they benefit from a years-long, 10 times
| over budget and bug riddled software renewal? Probably not.
| busterarm wrote:
| Fax machines are still popular because you still need to put
| your hanko on everything in Japan and digital signing
| services are only just recently catching up to giving people
| the capability to sign with a stamp.
|
| Give it another decade or two and fax machines will be gone.
|
| https://youtube.com/watch?v=YmfFHz2-uC8
| Dalewyn wrote:
| Laziness is the mother of all inventions, as the old saying
| goes.
|
| Japanese are not lazy, they are one of the most capable
| people on the planet, but that also means they don't innovate
| or see the value of new inventions.
|
| A great example is that in the west, we have specific kitchen
| tools for everything. An apple peeler, for example.
| Specifically to peel and only peel apples and only apples.
| Why? Because everyone's a lazy bastard.
|
| But in Japan? One kitchen knife for everything. Yes, one
| single kitchen knife. For everything. Why? Because everyone
| is skilled with the kitchen knife to do anything and
| everything with it, so they don't need to innovate and invent
| apple peelers.
|
| Or another great example: Japan started using telephones and
| then mobile phones and that was good enough for them. The
| west wanted even more convenience and invented smartphones.
|
| As you put it, doing it the old fashioned way is "good
| enough" for Japan because they aren't lazy. They are both
| among the most advanced and regressive people on the planet.
| midoridensha wrote:
| >They still use fax and telegrams quite a lot
|
| Telegrams? Is this some kind of joke? I've never seen anything
| resembling a telegram here.
|
| Faxes are still used between businesses, which is much the same
| as the US where they're ubiquitous in the real estate and legal
| industries.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| I didn't know that US real estate agents still use faxes.
| Really??? What are they sending? Floor layout?
| _def wrote:
| Just guessing, but maybe signed contracts
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| Good point. I wonder if they fax for "round one", then
| use courier on bike for "round two".
| lost_tourist wrote:
| most don't, they use email and signed pdfs like most
| people, i'm sure there are some hold outs though.
| est wrote:
| I remember few years back Tokyo's Covid-19 numbers plateaued
| because the hand-written fax system
|
| https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-
| japan-...
|
| https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/13373419
| supernova87a wrote:
| The UK's virus numbers did too. But because they ran out of
| Excel rows and didn't know it.
| brigandish wrote:
| > Telegrams? Is this some kind of joke? I've never seen
| anything resembling a telegram here.
|
| They're used for special occasions, you can even get them
| printed on pretty paper and put in pretty envelopes.
| [deleted]
| tkgally wrote:
| Telegrams are still commonly used in Japan to send messages
| of congratulations and condolence.
|
| https://www.denpoppo.com/
|
| https://www.ntt-east.co.jp/dmail/
|
| Wedding and funeral ceremonies often include a segment where
| someone reads aloud messages that have been delivered by
| telegram.
| midoridensha wrote:
| This doesn't seem like a technological issue at all, unlike
| Fax machines. Unless I'm missing something, this is
| basically like the old-fashioned "singing telegrams" in the
| US, except without the singing part: you're just hiring a
| person to deliver a message in-person and read it aloud.
| The message isn't being transmitted over actual telegraph
| wires.
| arnaudsm wrote:
| That explains why Japan feels like the future in the 80s. Tokyo
| has this amazing retro-futuristic vibe.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Kind of like how Britain has the oldest train lines.
| bmitc wrote:
| Beautiful video, in more ways than one. This is how machines are
| meant to be used: augmenting humans rather than enslaving them.
|
| Also, I have always felt that people who design industrial
| automation machines are mad geniuses. They just seem so complex
| but work!
| Tor3 wrote:
| Imagine how much manual work this used to be, back in the Edo
| period where the garment was invented.
|
| I wouldn't change a thing, except the stuffing - it's a winter
| garment, so I would stuff it with wool instead of cotton,
| though that was of course not an option in the Edo period and
| still hardly is, in Japan.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Sheep aren't farmed in Japan?
| bmitc wrote:
| I listened to the Allbirds edition of the _How I Build
| This_ podcast on NPR.
| https://www.npr.org/2019/06/07/730695224/allbirds-tim-
| brown-...
|
| It's been a while, but if I recall correctly, they
| mentioned that sheep farmers in New Zealand were having
| trouble making money and finding uses of wool. (I might be
| misremembering, as I'd have to go back and re-listen.) And
| if anything on _Clarkson 's Farm_ is to be taken as an
| accurate portrayal of farming trends, sheep farming was
| portrayed as a very difficult and unprofitable business. So
| I am completely guessing here, but maybe sheep farming is
| just not popular like it was?
|
| Sheep farming being on the decline, at least in the U.S.,
| seems to be at least corroborated by the following after a
| quick search:
|
| https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/animal-products/sheep-
| lamb-m...
|
| https://www.kunc.org/business/2013-10-09/the-long-slow-
| decli...
|
| According to this article though, Japan is the third
| biggest importer of wool but only had 20,000 sheep, as of
| the article's date of 2014:
| https://www.fragmentsmag.com/en/2014/06/ami-tsumuli-4/. So
| maybe in Japan, it's both an expensive enterprise to farm
| sheep and a lot of competition with imports. But that
| really doesn't answer why it wouldn't be used, which
| doesn't seem accurate if they're one of the world's top
| importers of wool, only behind the U.S. and China.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > I would stuff it with wool instead of cotton
|
| It also depends on the price point you want to hit. Cotton is
| much less expensive than wool.
| Tor3 wrote:
| Yes, though the high quality cotton used in Japan can be
| quite expensive (we had a lot of cotton from old futons at
| our home, we had to throw a lot away to make room. That
| stuff was very expensive when those futons were
| (hand-)made).
|
| The thing about wool is that it insulates even when it's
| damp, while cotton simply collapses as far as insulation is
| concerned unless it's completely dry.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Absolutely. I'm a huge fan of wool (mostly because no
| other material will do when I'm camping in middle of the
| wilderness). But the cost of it makes it difficult for a
| lot of people to afford.
|
| In any case, my point really is that the right material
| to use in production depends on what your target market
| is. If you're aiming to sell at a more affluent crowd,
| then wool all the way! But you might also be aiming to
| sell at a larger, less affluent group that makes wool the
| wrong material due to its cost.
|
| There's no absolute right or wrong here, only what's
| right or wrong for the market you're trying to address.
| LoveMortuus wrote:
| If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
| hbarka wrote:
| Oh come on. In other news, Bank Of America is still using IBM
| OS/390.
| SeasonalEnnui wrote:
| In the scene after the punch card workflow is shown, we see a
| modern PC with recent software & bespoke input devices. It seems
| like this factory is pragmatic in their choices which is
| certainly something to be celebrated.
| ChatGTP wrote:
| They're clearly missing out because they've not incorporating
| Scrum,AI (specifically LLMs), Tesla bots, self-driving cars,
| cloud and a hot new JS library.
| nixass wrote:
| Then you see that rotating machine that is made by Suzuki
| (machine that rotates threads, I'm no expert so no idea). And
| then you realize that every Japanese major industrial company
| produces literally everything
| dfex wrote:
| These companies are informally known as Zaibatsu[1] - massive
| vertically integrated conglomerates. They produce literally
| everything they need to sustain themselves, so you'll find them
| running (say) an outsourced IT services business that services
| all their business units (from Car manufacturing, Aerospace to
| Restaurant chains) as they often avoid doing business with each
| other if possible.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu
| Dalewyn wrote:
| >as they often avoid doing business with each other if
| possible.
|
| That culture is actually starting to change, because that
| domestic rivalry/hostility has been the chief reason Japan
| lost the competition against American, South Korean,
| Taiwanese, and Chinese manufacturers in recent decades.
|
| Can't fight on the world stage if you're busy fighting each
| other on home turf, y'know?
| freetime2 wrote:
| I wasn't sure it was the same Suzuki (it's a common family
| name), but sure enough according to Wikipedia [1]:
|
| > In 1909, Michio Suzuki (1887-1982) founded the Suzuki Loom
| Works in the small seacoast village of Hamamatsu, Japan.
| Business boomed as Suzuki built weaving looms for Japan's giant
| silk industry. In 1929, Michio Suzuki invented a new type of
| weaving machine, which was exported overseas. The company's
| first 30 years focused on the development and production of
| these machines.
|
| Not only is it the same company, but it started out as a loom
| company!
|
| That being said, Suzuki Motor Corporation is actually a fairly
| small company (market cap ~$18.5B) that mainly sticks to
| building automobiles. Not to be confused with something like
| the Mitsubishi Group that provides a wide range of different
| products and services (automobiles, banking, home appliances,
| etc) under the same brand logo [2].
|
| [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki
|
| [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Group
| supernova87a wrote:
| https://www.theonion.com/yamaha-ceo-pleased-with-current-pro...
|
| "Yamaha CEO Pleased With Current Production Of Jet Skis, Alto
| Saxophones, Snowmobiles, Power Generators, Scooters, Golf
| Carts"
| rudasn wrote:
| I think it's more like every japanese motor company produces
| everything that has a motor in it.
|
| Except Yamaha. Yamaha is just weird.
| lb1lf wrote:
| I seem to recall reading in The Economist years and years ago
| that this was largely a result of countless mergers and
| acquisitions and a strong cultural distaste for whittling away
| units not part of what was defined as the business' core du
| jour. (Good on them, I say)
|
| Anyway, the result was that Japan's biggest supplier of tomato
| soup was...
|
| Sony.
| Dalewyn wrote:
| Mitsubishi produces everything from pencils to space rockets
| and everything in-between and not in-between.
| freetime2 wrote:
| According to Wikipedia [1], the Mitsubishi Pencil Company
| is not related to the Mitsubishi rocket company (aka
| Mitsubishi Heavy Industries) and Mitsubishi Group.
|
| [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uni-ball
| lb1lf wrote:
| Wow, I've been using Mitsubishi Hi-Unis as my go-to
| pencils for decades now, and always assumed they were
| part of The(tm) Mitsubishi group.
|
| IMHO they outrank anything as all-round pencils - I
| mostly use mine in H grade for writing, occasionally
| bringing out a set of various grades for some drawing,
| but still - Hi-Unis are unbreakable, consistent, takes
| kindly to erasing mistakes and... Wow, beating Tombows,
| Blackwings, Lumographs, the works. IMHO, at least. YMMV.
| Terms&Conditions apply.
| Dalewyn wrote:
| TIL! I'm pretty sure even most Japanese think they're
| part of the same group.
| gyulai wrote:
| Tape cassettes, as it happens, are actually hip again. They make
| cassette players now for a modern tech stack, with bluetooth etc.
| Bandcamp is full of artists selling tape, and sales of audio
| cassette tapes have been up year-on-year every year lately. More
| and more manufacturers are starting to spin up production again
| [1]
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassette_tape#21st_century
| lost_tourist wrote:
| this makes even less sense than vinyl records, other than
| nostalgia :)
| asciimov wrote:
| It's the physicality of the medium. It's the rattle of the
| cassette in the case, the sound of putting it in the player,
| the feel of pushing the play button. Some people really enjoy
| the lowfi-ness of it all, the hiss of the tape, the limited
| number of songs, the fact you can hand it or trade it to
| someone else.
|
| While I don't miss cassettes I do miss the rituals
| surrounding physical media. Being able to pick a thing,
| listen to it, and not being sold on other items.
| xyst wrote:
| "Cassette tapes are made of a polyester-type plastic film with
| a magnetic coating"
|
| yay more plastic junk destined for the landfill
| gyulai wrote:
| FWIW, I'm under the impression (while not being an expert),
| that plastics actually have pretty good recyclability and
| just suffer an "image problem" for reasons unrelated to the
| actual physical properties of the material. -- e.g. "Great
| Pacific garbage patch", but that's just because plastic
| floats and someone didn't take the trouble to recycle stuff
| before dumping it, not because it's impossible to do that
| kind of recycling; Or "Microplastics" which are nasty because
| of their form factor, not necessarily because of the
| material; Or because of applications where there are paper-
| based alternatives and paper has a leg up due to being a
| renewable material.
|
| For example, according to a very entertaining little book I
| have [1] that debunks greenness-myths, you need to use a
| cotton tote bag 130 times before you reach a break even in
| terms of economical footprint with using plastic shopping
| bags. Ironically, people's homes are filling up with cotton
| bags now, because you keep getting them as advertising gifts
| by every brand that's trying to brand itself as green, and
| you're often forced to buy them when you're at the
| supermarket and forgot to bring yours, and they've run out of
| paper bags and are not offering plastic for fear of
| perceptions of un-green-ness.
|
| [1] "Is it really green?" by Melissa Hemsley
| hooverd wrote:
| I hate when that study comes up. There's a lot wrong with
| it. See: https://medium.com/@parkpoomkomet/breaking-down-
| the-danish-s...
|
| And funnily enough, I see people shopping with reusable
| poly bags more often than cotton totes. There's one
| manufacturer that supplies Whole Foods and a lot of other
| grocery stores, and they're pretty solid.
| jrockway wrote:
| Are there any plastic recycling success stories? For
| example, the PET in plastic bottles can't be recycled into
| new bottles. The best case is that it can be used in
| carpet, and probably not very nice carpet that the first
| world would buy.
|
| I've used my reusable grocery bags for over ten years. They
| have gotten well over 130 uses.
| Symbiote wrote:
| According to [1], about 15% of recycled PET bottles were
| used to make new bottles, and those aren't necessarily
| food/drink bottles.
|
| I suspect the quality of collected bottles is a
| significant factor. Here in Denmark bottles collected as
| part of the deposit scheme can be recycled into new food
| containers, but other waste generally cannot.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PET_bottle_recycling
| userbinator wrote:
| I have plastic bags that weren't ever advertised as
| "reusable", from over 2 decades ago, but are indeed very
| reusable. They made them thicker and stronger back then,
| but unfortunately that was wasted by so many choosing not
| to reuse them.
| bdhcuidbebe wrote:
| > FWIW, I'm under the impression (while not being an
| expert), that plastics actually have pretty good
| recyclability and just suffer an "image problem" for
| reasons unrelated to the actual physical properties of the
| material
|
| That's what big oil managed to dupe policy makers with in
| the first place, the promise of recyclability. By now it
| should be apperant for anybody that it was just a big lie
| [1,2]
|
| 1: https://time.com/6173859/plastic-recycling-big-oil-
| damage/
|
| 2: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/897692090/how-big-oil-
| misled-...
| gyulai wrote:
| Well, the PBS article, first of all, is extremely poorly
| written. How can you write that plastic is
| "indestructible" and that it "breaks down" into
| microplastics that enter our bodies, in the same
| sentence, and not spot the contradiction.
|
| Also, it actually says "All used plastic can be turned
| into new things, but picking it up, sorting it out and
| melting it down is expensive." Later down in the article:
| "Recycling plastic is 'costly,' it [the report] says, and
| sorting it, the report concludes, is 'infeasible.'"
|
| So, it does sound to me like there's an important
| distinction here where recycling plastics (or, at least,
| disposing of it responsibly even when that's costly) _is_
| possible, it 's just not happening.
|
| Now, my own perspective: I live in Austria and Germany,
| where governments have been doing collections of plastic
| trash separately from residual household waste since the
| 90s, and are asking households to pay steep prices for
| disposing of residual waste, but not for disposing of
| plastic. When I lived in Bavaria, disposal of plastics
| worked through recycling centers, where people had to
| separate their plastic waste into half a dozen containers
| for different kinds of plastics under the watchful eyes
| of employees educating consumers on what goes where, and
| doing that kind of separation was the only way you could
| dispose of plastic at all, without paying the very steep
| price (effectively a fine), for disposing of it through
| residual household waste. -- There are _a lot_ of
| recycling centers in Bavaria, usually no more than 10
| minutes ' drive from where you live, even if you live in
| a rural area. And they are _packed_ on a Saturday. Nobody
| can tell me that people aren 't using them.
|
| I'm having a hard time imagining that the government
| would ask households to go to all that trouble and then
| just send it to landfill. They'd have to make sure to
| keep it a secret, because people would rightly be angry
| if they knew this, and they'd have to pay for it through
| back channels of sorts. This kind of scandal, while it
| seems possible, hasn't actually broken yet, to the best
| of my knowledge, over the course of the several decades
| that this practice has been ongoing an in any of the
| governments that have been doing this, which are many.
|
| So, my working assumption until this particular scandal
| actually breaks, is that alarmism coming from
| environmentalists in the U.S. is really about poor waste-
| disposal habits on the part of the American consumer, and
| not some kind of conspiracy by big oil that governments
| are in on, to make us believe that plastic is anything
| other than the devil.
| kalleboo wrote:
| https://www.giiresearch.com/report/bon1238015-germany-
| plasti...
|
| 61% of the plastic waste collected for recycling in
| Germany is incinerated.
|
| A lot is also exported to Asian countries where we
| pretend they are recycling it but they are probably not.
| This was in the news all over Europe back in 2019 when
| China stopped allowing imports of waste and all the
| "recycling" programs went into crisis mode. Germany now
| exports its waste to Malaysia instead.
| gyulai wrote:
| Okay, that's an interesting data point that I genuinely
| didn't know about; thanks for posting.
|
| But my original argument still debunks PBS's claim that
| sorting and free market economics is somehow the problem.
|
| I still feel like I'm not personally at fault in my role
| as a consumer if I use plastic and take it to the
| recycling center assuming them to deal in good faith.
| kalleboo wrote:
| I had to look up the numbers for Germany but they're
| around the same around the world, sometimes worse.
|
| I live in Japan which also boasts a very high high
| recycling rate, but the vast majority of the plastic just
| gets incinerated. Here whenever it comes up in the news,
| they claim that since different types of waste needs to
| be burnt at different temperatures, it's still worth it
| since it makes the incineration (which is used to
| generate heat or electricity) more efficient.
| userbinator wrote:
| _is really about poor waste-disposal habits on the part
| of the American consumer_
|
| To put this into perspective and link it back to the
| original article: the Japanese also have very highly
| organised waste sorting.
| PurpleRamen wrote:
| > Well, the PBS article, first of all, is extremely
| poorly written. How can you write that plastic is
| "indestructible" and that it "breaks down" into
| microplastics that enter our bodies, in the same
| sentence, and not spot the contradiction.
|
| Where is the contradiction? It's breaks down in smaller
| parts of plastic, but still remains being plastic. It
| won't transform into something else, like oil, coal, or
| food for plants. It's still the same, just a bit smaller.
|
| > There are a lot of recycling centers in Bavaria
|
| Collected plastics in Germany are usually not recycled,
| they are burned or shipped to other countries, often
| under the pretext of recycling.
|
| > I'm having a hard time imagining that the government
| would ask households to go to all that trouble and then
| just send it to landfill.
|
| Governments demand much bullshit to pamper the citizen.
| And often it's not even the fault of the government's
| original idea, it's just that things evolve somehow in a
| poor way along the way. The corrupt forces break down any
| attempt until it becomes twisted enough to not be useful
| anymore in the original aim.
| gyulai wrote:
| > Collected plastics in Germany are usually not recycled,
| [...]
|
| ...well, I use the term "recycle" very loosely. If it's
| disposed of responsibly, then fair enough. That
| presumably includes burning, as long as you do it in a
| way where you don't just blow the toxines into the
| atmosphere, and, presumably, wherever you generate heat,
| you can at least get some electricity out of it.
|
| It just seems to me like the PBS article is strawmaning
| the pro-plastic argument by making it look like the only
| way you can have plastic at all, is if you're cool with
| it ending up in landfill.
|
| The logic seems to be this: Plastic is extremely cheap to
| manufacture from primary resources, therefore recycled
| plastic could never compete in the marketplace with
| newly-made plastic, therefore there's no demand for used
| plastic as a resource in making recycled plastic,
| therefore used plastic will end up in landfill. Compare
| that to textile which has a much larger economic
| footprint and costs more to produce while being more
| durable. The previous argument about the primary market
| crippling the secondary market doesn't hold for textile.
| After all, second-hand clothing stores are a thing, and
| probably are a force for good.
|
| But people mistakenly take away the message "textiles are
| good, plastics are bad". The economy is starting to
| reflect that consumer sentiment, and you're seeing
| plastics replaced by textiles in lots of scenarios to
| reach the "green consumer". Is that a net-positive,
| environmentally speaking? Probably not. If the break even
| is at 130 uses of a cotton tote bag, and assuming one
| shopping trip per week, we'd have to, on average, see
| nearly 3-year-old tote bags being used for them to make
| sense. I don't think that's what I'm seeing around me,
| I'm seeing mostly brand-new tote bags and/or people
| sporting a different one every day of the week because
| they have dozens at home.
|
| What I'm also seeing: "Green" consumers are mostly just
| "rich folk", and their greenness doesn't stop them from
| engaging in their "rich folk" behaviours. They are buying
| _more_ stuff, and replacing it _more frequently_ , plus
| they are paying higher prices to have the stuff they buy
| be made from more durable materials, because durability
| gives a material an environmentally-friendly image while
| low cost gives materials a "damaging for the environment"
| image.
|
| There is a very simple solution to this dilemma: Dispose
| of plastic responsibly _despite the cost_. It 's not like
| nothing could ever get done in the world if free market
| incentives didn't force them to get done. Covid shutdowns
| got done. Some things are just a matter of principle.
| Make this a matter of principle. Pay for what it truly
| costs to dispose of this stuff out of your own pocket. If
| that means that plastic is still more economical for you
| to use for certain applications than alternatives, then
| by all means keep using plastic.
| HPsquared wrote:
| I think plastics don't necessarily have good recyclability,
| but why is this even needed? Just bury or burn it.
| lost_tourist wrote:
| pollution and pollution
| userbinator wrote:
| PE and PP, the most widely used plastics in disposable
| applications, are essentially highly refined oil (more
| like a wax) and burn cleaner than coal.
| kgabis wrote:
| Not really and not really.
| HPsquared wrote:
| If they can bury nuclear waste, a bit of plastic can't be
| too bad. Just make the tiniest effort to bury it
| somewhere suitable, and burn it properly.
| filleduchaos wrote:
| We produce multiple orders of magnitude more plastic than
| nuclear waste.
|
| (As an aside, what does "burn it properly" entail?
| Gasifying before combustion? Even that is not exactly
| "clean".)
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| In 2023, is there a scientific consensus on landfill vs
| incineration? It seems like many, highly advanced countries
| are using incineration now, including plastics. Hell, Sweden
| even imports garbage from other European countries to burn as
| a service.
|
| Deeper question: Are there _any_ removable storage mediums
| that are easy to recycle? Vinyl records? Minidisc? CDs
| /DVDs/Blurays? Computer tapes?
| [deleted]
| SoKamil wrote:
| Please do not tell him what CDs are made of
| callalex wrote:
| CDs use a fraction of the material and have much, much,
| much greater durability.
| AA-BA-94-2A-56 wrote:
| Is he implying a comparison to CDs or to codecs over
| internet?
|
| Hint: It's the latter.
| mopenstein wrote:
| How would one be listening to digital music? On their
| plastic phones they replace every 2 years?
|
| I have cassettes that are 40 years old.
| AA-BA-94-2A-56 wrote:
| Is this a trick question? I would listen to digital audio
| on a computer, which I've had access to for my entire
| life. I'm 30 years old, and I've never not had a computer
| in the house.
|
| Also, most people purchasing cassettes nowadays most
| likely also own and use a smartphone.
|
| I am trying to understand your perspective, but I just
| don't, I'm sorry.
| [deleted]
| Hamuko wrote:
| I quite honestly don't understand why. Even if its sound
| quality was subpar to modern media, vinyl at least had a
| distinct advantage with its XL-sized cover art that made it
| easier to display the albums that you loved.
| photonerd wrote:
| Nostalgia, retro fashion, etc.
|
| Vinyl and tape are also enjoyably tactile.
| zokier wrote:
| Post-modernismn and nostalgia are large factors. Overall I
| think the idea largely is that instead of considering the
| media just an imperfect vessel to carry the artwork, it is
| instead made into part of the artwork itself.
|
| In visual arts I think there is longer tradition of playing
| with the imperfections of the media instead of trying to hide
| them.
|
| But ultimately, trying to reason about art has its limits,
| not everything can be understood (or at least enjoyed)
| rationally.
| gyulai wrote:
| The advantages that initially motivated cassettes over vinyl
| back when cassettes were invented are basically still valid,
| for example that you can't have a vinyl-based "walkman", and
| that they're economical to record onto, while pressing short
| runs of vinyl is not economical.
|
| Indie acts have often gravitated towards CD-R rather than
| vinyl, because they can burn them at home in small
| quantities. But for mobile use, a walkman actually beats a
| discman, in my opinion, due to its smaller size. And, not
| being digital, cassettes have a kind of built-in "soft" DRM
| feature, in that reproduction is possible but goes hand-in-
| hand with a loss in quality. The mixtape / pirating /
| bootlegging scene helps spread the message about an act, and,
| if someone truly likes the music, they might go back to the
| original artist and buy an "official" prerecorded cassette
| where they get better sound quality, and a reasonable level
| of expectation that the money actually reaches the artist to
| support them.
|
| With Spotify, for example, I have no idea, as a consumer, if
| I listen to a lot of small acts, how much of the money I pay
| every month to Spotify actually gets into the pockets of
| those acts, or whether they're just on there because they got
| arm-twisted into being on the platform because of platform
| power.
|
| There's a lot that's good about the medium, and that goodness
| comes in the form of simplicity in engineering, which is a
| virtue in its own right.
| zokier wrote:
| > With Spotify, for example, I have no idea, as a consumer,
| if I listen to a lot of small acts, how much of the money I
| pay every month to Spotify actually gets into the pockets
| of those acts
|
| You can assume it is pretty much a rounding error what they
| get.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Yep. This is part of why I don't use streaming services.
| I prefer to buy the music directly from the musicians
| when I can, or go through something like Bandcamp if
| that's what the musician wants to do.
|
| I end up with the music, the musician ends up with most
| of the money, everybody wins.
| olah_1 wrote:
| > cassettes have a kind of built-in "soft" DRM feature, in
| that reproduction is possible but goes hand-in-hand with a
| loss in quality
|
| Not just reproduction. Even just listening to them a bunch
| goes hand-in-hand with a loss in quality. Unplanned
| obsolescence?
| tokai wrote:
| >Even if its sound quality was subpar to modern media
|
| For some genres that's the point. Most modern black metal is
| released on cassette tape, to achieve the desired black metal
| sound.
| makz wrote:
| The effect can be achieved with saturation and lo-fi
| plugins. But yeah, I get it.
| Atheros wrote:
| The number of people who enjoy music is and always has been
| lower than the number of people who find it useful to use
| music as a pretext for socializing. Tape is easier to carry
| and lend to friends than vinyl. Tape can be recorded by home
| users and vinyl cannot which means that making a mix tape and
| sharing it with people is possible with tape but not vinyl.
|
| The physical properties of tape make it much better for
| socializing than digital files or streaming services because
| it forces in-person interaction. That's what people were
| actually enjoying throughout the 20th century, we all just
| lived in a collective fantasy that it was _music_ that people
| were after when it wasn 't quite that after all.
| andyferris wrote:
| I feel culture is meant to be shared.
|
| I remember watching TV shows in the 90s and discussing each
| episode with friends. It was great.
|
| Or you could rent a video movie and watch it with friends
| (amortising the cost).
|
| Mix tapes were also great gifts.
|
| I dunno, the tech was technically inferior but it just
| worked out nice somehow.
| stevezsa8 wrote:
| I know what you mean about discussing TV shows or music
| with friends.
|
| At school, me and my bestie at the time would quiz each
| other on the previous night's episode of Star Trek. How
| lame we were :]
| JohnFen wrote:
| > Mix tapes were also great gifts.
|
| I recognize, in hindsight only, that every woman I'd
| dated seriously has received a mix tape from me. Well, in
| the old days it was a mix tape. These days it's more
| likely to be a CD or a thumb drive. But it's the same
| thing in the end.
|
| I think it's a way of revealing a more intimate part of
| myself. Kind of "you should know who I am, and here is an
| important part of that" kind of thing.
| Parae wrote:
| I released my last album on tape cassette. It's easy, fast
| and super cheap to produce, so you can sell it at gigs for
| few euros or even give them for free. Fans are likely to buy
| some merchandising to support the artists they like and they
| don't really want to spend 15EUR for a vinyl when they
| already paid for an entrance.
|
| Cassette tape also have that crispy, muffed but hot and
| softly saturated sound. I also like sometimes to record my
| synthesizers direct to tape with a Yamaha MX4T (a 4-track
| cassette recorder).
| KineticLensman wrote:
| One other feature not mentioned in other comments yet is that
| when you stop the tape, you can move it to another device and
| playback will continue from the same point
| grose wrote:
| Way easier to record compared to vinyl and its "poor" sound
| quality is a feature not a bug for lofi/aesthetic artists
| KerrAvon wrote:
| Cassette manufacturers are restarting, but not _player_
| manufacturers. Newly manufactured cassette players sound like
| absolute shit. The factories making high quality tape machines
| have long since shut down. Techmoan has an entire series on
| this on YouTube.
| solardev wrote:
| The pencil lobby is pleased
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| Also Polish auto repair shop using Commodore 64:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12604414
|
| I also remember a discussion here about a camp site that was
| still using a booking system on an eighties computer, but
| couldn't find it.
| kansai wrote:
| It was an Atari ST: https://youtu.be/6LxPEz9x2fs
| forinti wrote:
| Not that surprising when you consider that some Japanese
| companies still weave jeans by hand.
|
| Japan is an interesting mix of old and new.
| mjhay wrote:
| Vintage Americana is big in Japan. I understand that has
| created a market for very high-quality jeans as vintage
| American jeans are harder to find and modern American jeans are
| of far lower quality.
| dangerboysteve wrote:
| Very clickbait heading. The 40 your old computer is used for the
| loom pattern. The cloths are designed and patterns cut from
| modern computers and software.
| supernova87a wrote:
| Interesting that it's just this one step that they stick to the
| old 80s technology. The rest of the design, inspection, weaving,
| cutting, etc. seems to have moved on, understandably.
|
| By the way, did you know that (some) modern looms use jets of
| air/water to send the weft thread across the loom? No more
| shuttles or mechanical passing of the thread. Amazing.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVWkZiHjreI
| masswerk wrote:
| I guess, it may be difficult to find a suitable machine
| targeting mid-sized manufacturers with small production runs,
| nowadays. A replacement and retraining everybody involved and
| re-editing the data may just no be worth the investment, as
| long as the existing technology keeps up.
| sirmarksalot wrote:
| I saw that demonstrated at the Toyota Museum of Industry and
| Technology in Nagoya. One of the tradeoffs with that is that
| you can't use cotton because it won't interact cleanly with the
| water, so it only works for synthetic fibers.
|
| If you ever find yourself in that part of the world, I highly
| recommend visiting the textile pavilion there. They basically
| show you 1000x throughput improvement developed over the course
| of a century, demonstrated in about an hour.
| nyoomboom wrote:
| Surprised they don't use Jaccard looms
| nelox wrote:
| I use pen and paper
| xyst wrote:
| such a maverick
| NoPicklez wrote:
| Wait, you're telling me you don't use a complete VR/AR display
| for all of your writing and reading?
| jedc wrote:
| Years ago I got to know a startup that effectively reverse-
| engineered the punchcard-like code necessary to run about half of
| the massive textile looms used in factories all over the world.
| Instead of needing to use the ancient systems / software that the
| loom ran, they built software that could effectively treat the
| loom as a printer.
|
| It took them a while to find the right business model, but now
| they partner with huge brands to offer them textile customization
| AT SCALE, which previously was pretty much unheard of. -
| https://www.unmade.com/
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| What is the original title of this video? It's weird that YouTube
| changes it from Japanese. Like, let me decide if I want it
| translated or indicate it has been translated??
|
| And was this editorialized from the original?
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| 40Nian Qian nopasokongaXian Yi !Ji Jie toShou Shi Shi deChuan
| Tong woShou rinagarahantenwoZuo ruRi Ben noGong Chang
|
| ...
|
| A computer from 40 years ago is still in use! A Japanese
| factory that makes hanten while preserving tradition with
| machines and handwork
| arthur_sav wrote:
| If it ain't broken...
| cyclotron3k wrote:
| ...rewrite it in rust
| xyst wrote:
| you mean go, right?
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| system2 wrote:
| Realistically how long would it take to modernize the software
| while keeping the old hardware?
| Dalewyn wrote:
| Far more than anyone is willing to pay.
| hulitu wrote:
| An eternity. They wouldn't have finished the first version when
| they start working on the second.
| rightbyte wrote:
| Why would they? The TUI seems to be fine. An modernization
| would probably be way worse given today's "UX" trends.
|
| Maybe they should replace the computer and cassettes before
| they run of out them.
| Adamantcheese wrote:
| Assuming the computer talks over a standard protocol like
| serial or parallel, I don't see how it wouldn't be fairly
| straightforward to move it to a newer machine. Might even be
| able to run it on a virtual machine for better compatibility.
| amiga-workbench wrote:
| Can you think of any modern platform that would have the
| longevity, stability and lack of maintenance burden of that
| Sharp computer over another 40 years?
|
| The only thing I can think of that would make their current
| setup more robust would be having the program burned into ROM
| and not on tape.
| jrockway wrote:
| > Can you think of any modern platform that would have the
| longevity, stability and lack of maintenance burden of that
| Sharp computer over another 40 years?
|
| I mean, probably any UNIX program written in C? Bill Joy vi
| can run on modern computers. What makes this software
| substantially different than a text editor?
| hulitu wrote:
| Just try to compile a vi from 20 years ago on a modern
| computer.
| jrockway wrote:
| According to Wikipedia that was a problem ... 20 years
| ago. That version compiles today. It's called
| "Traditional vi" and the Sourceforge site where it's
| hosted doesn't have a valid certificate so I didn't visit
| it.
| zokier wrote:
| 20 years ago was 2003, four years after C99. First x86-64
| CPUs were released 20 years ago. Compiling 20 year old C
| codebase should not be an issue at all if it was half-
| decent to begin with.
|
| Compiling pre-ANSI-C and pre-POSIX codebases might have
| challenges, but standardization has really gotten us lot
| of stability here.
|
| I'd expect conservatively written C99/POSIX code to be
| usable certainly for another 20 years, there is just so
| much inertia there
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect
| poplet wrote:
| I wonder how old these tapes are
| nuc1e0n wrote:
| The z88dk toolchain supports the MZ-80K as a target. So you
| could write new software in C or any other language that can
| output C code.
| tivert wrote:
| > Realistically how long would it take to modernize the
| software while keeping the old hardware?
|
| What value would that provide (than make-work for a couple of
| software engineers)?
|
| Probably the most bang-for-the-buck effort would be get their
| existing software running on an emulator, and get that
| integrated with the hole-punch machine. An even then, I think
| the main value there would be to have a backup in hand if they
| have trouble maintaining that old computer hardware.
| Freedom2 wrote:
| This sounds like indoctrination to me. I generally have a
| different worldview that it would provide a lot of value.
| tivert wrote:
| > This sounds like indoctrination to me. I generally have a
| different worldview that it would provide a lot of value.
|
| That's a weird way of putting it, but I honestly think the
| "modernize" all the things crowd are probably the ones that
| "sound indoctrinated."
|
| So, if your "different worldview" says reflexively
| redeveloping the software would provide "a lot of value,"
| _then name the value it would provide_. They 've got a
| process that's worked for them for 40+ years, what exactly
| is the value in re-doing software that's only a minor part
| of that process? Does that "value" justify the cost?
|
| Honestly, what they've got can probably be understood more
| as an appliance than as an IT system, and anything
| developed today would almost certainly take the form of an
| IT system, with all the recurring cost and complexity that
| entails.
| rightbyte wrote:
| Maybe you would.
|
| But nowadays, it would probably be an agile disaster with
| two or three layers of managers and sales people, maybe
| even on different firms, if done by best practice, between
| you and the customer. Forget talking to the operators.
|
| KISS is a beauty of the past.
|
| There is no way the simple and straightforward text based
| solution would be made. It is more likely it would be a
| bloated mess with clouds or what not.
| WJW wrote:
| I think characterizing it just as "make-work for software
| engineers" is too harsh. Just from a business continuity
| perspective there is a real benefit to being on a well-
| supported platform for which it is cheap and easy to source
| new parts. I don't know offhand how many punch card reader
| manufacturers still exist, but the competition is going to be
| a lot less than it is in (say) USB stick manufacturing.
|
| It's a difficult thing to quantify, but access to stable
| supply lines is surely worth more than zero.
| Symbiote wrote:
| The punch cards will be directly controlling the loom, it
| looks like it is read electro-mechanically. Maintaining the
| card reader is presumably a minor part of maintenance for
| the whole loom. One person probably has the skills to
| maintain the weaving part and the reading part.
|
| If you replaced the input with USB or similar, you now also
| need someone with IT skills if that part goes wrong.
| zokier wrote:
| > What value would that provide (than make-work for a couple
| of software engineers)?
|
| In the lingo, business continuity and risk management. When,
| not if but when, the current system fails, there is high
| chance of it being unrecoverable. Even if it were technically
| recoverable, can they find someone to do that work? How long
| will the factory stand still while the system is being
| recovered or replaced? In general it is more cost-effective
| to replace things before they fail rather than after the
| fact. Doubly so in these sort of cases where using the old
| system (in working state!) as a reference would most likely
| be beneficial.
| lost_tourist wrote:
| You could probably find an old timer who could bridge the gap
| fairly easily and lead a team of a couple of engineers to do it
| in a reasonable amount of time. I'm guessing that program is
| written in basic or assembly which wasn't too hard to learn on
| those old machines.
| ohuf wrote:
| ...that would void the warranty! ;)
| cfcfcf wrote:
| If you enjoy this type of slow film making, this genre of "a day
| in the life" of Japanese kitchens I find quite meditative and
| inspiring.
|
| https://youtu.be/PC2rAUdpGXM
| guluarte wrote:
| FF 2090: Japanese textile factory still uses js and react
| [hologram]
| hulitu wrote:
| No, because either the certificate would have expired or the
| automatic updates failed.
| goldenkey wrote:
| Or an npm package got poisoned.
| jgrahamc wrote:
| Ooh. That looks like a Sharp MZ-80K. I spent a ton of time
| programming one of those and own a still working one. Lovely to
| see them in action.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Makes perfect sense to me! If your current solution continues to
| work well, you shouldn't take on the costs and risks of switching
| to a different solution.
|
| I have a server that's even older than that in my home network.
| Why? Because it continues to do its job well. The cost (in time)
| and risk of of swapping it out for newer hardware makes doing so
| the less appealing choice.
| class3shock wrote:
| Just to clarify, they are using the cassettes and old computers
| to create punch cards required to run older machines they are
| using. They are also using modern equipment and computers. This
| is fairly common in industrial manufacturing because the cost of
| replacing or retrofitting expensive equipment is high not because
| older = better (although I'm sure sometimes that is the case).
| helij wrote:
| This reminded me of another Japanese company called Takahashi and
| their video[0] on making telescopes.
|
| [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC0dBh53dyI&t=9s
| tibbydudeza wrote:
| Reminds me of the Linotype - mechanical perfection for a single
| task.
| _Qeomash_ wrote:
| Be sure to turn on closed captions!
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