[HN Gopher] Apple plans a slow, appointment-only rollout of Visi...
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Apple plans a slow, appointment-only rollout of Vision Pro
Author : evo_9
Score : 167 points
Date : 2023-07-07 22:06 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bloomberg.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bloomberg.com)
| alpark3 wrote:
| I'm actually fine with the appointment setting, even if some
| others are bothered by the notion of an involved process. It's
| sort of like buying a toy anyways, so all the more fun for me to
| enjoy the steps of checking out.
|
| The thing I would _hate_ , though, is limited availability with
| no real way of securing a spot. Nothing more annoying than trying
| to find any appointment spot available and praying that the units
| aren't sold out. It seems that their production "numbers" are
| capped by supply chain difficulties, rather than raw demand. But
| then again, it's $3500, so maybe I won't have any trouble
| grabbing a headset.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Genius Bar sessions are by appointment. I would be extremely
| surprised if this weren't by appointment as well, for something
| this expensive and in such limited supply.
| robg wrote:
| Bespoke = luxury. Someone else mentioned the Watch fittings and
| clearly that wasn't needed to scale. This might be - but only one
| way to find out.
| nabla9 wrote:
| Apple masters the art of creating artificial product shortages
| for marketing purposes. They deny it, they say it's some
| manufacturing issue, but usually it's just marketing.
|
| Here is news from 12 years ago where they deny iPhone 4 shortages
| are just marketing.
| https://appleinsider.com/articles/10/07/20/apple_denies_crea...
| jansan wrote:
| Remember when there were export requlations for the Playstation
| 3 because the chips were so powerful that North Korea could use
| them for missile guiding systems? I always thought that was
| excellent marketing.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Yes, because shipping a new product at volume is child's play.
| Sony still can't manufacture enough PS5's to keep them in
| stock.
|
| They've only sold 38 million in almost 3 years - the number of
| iPhones Apple sells in less than a quarter.
|
| And you're citing a denial as proof?
| nabla9 wrote:
| That's not my opinion. That's what Apple Analysts say is
| happening and they even predicted it. They observe the supply
| chain very closely and get information from the floor level.
| Apple does it it again and again in a way that is not
| realistic and analysts point it out.
|
| When Apple seems to face less demand than expected they have
| 'problems'. Sony has real screw ups it hurts the company
| because demand is off the roof.
|
| (Apple has the best supply chain management in the world)
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Yes because "analysts" have been spot on when it came to
| Apple ever since in the 80s.
| [deleted]
| MegaDeKay wrote:
| "Gurman says Apple will ensure that the Vision Pro fits the
| wearer and also outfit the device with prescription lens inserts
| if needed"
|
| I wear prescription glasses and have gone from single vision to
| progressive lenses that are stupid expensive. Worse, my
| prescription changes every visit to the optometrist. How
| sensitive is the headset's performance to my prescription, how
| expensive would replacement lenses be, and how difficult would
| they be to change out? Could I do this myself by ordering updated
| lenses based on my prescription or would I have to take the
| headset in?
| ozten wrote:
| VR's focus plane is 4-6 feet away for all distances, so you
| won't need progressive lenses.
| [deleted]
| criddell wrote:
| But the screen is always 2" away. As you look from things
| that are drawn as if they are near or far is kind of
| irrelevant, isn't it? Your focus depth won't change because
| your actual focus depth never changes.
| ozten wrote:
| https://reloptix.com/pages/prescription-instructions
| balls187 wrote:
| How old are you? 20's, 30's, 40's, or beyond?
|
| As you likely know your vision will eventually settle when you
| hit late 30's.
|
| Also I assume you have considered LASIK?
| FreezerburnV wrote:
| LASIK can't be considered until your prescription stabilizes
| for at least a year or two, so that isn't helpful to someone
| whose prescription is constantly changing.
| zaphod420 wrote:
| My vision was perfect until I hit 40. Now I need a new
| prescription ever couple of years.
| kibwen wrote:
| _> your vision will eventually settle when you hit late 30's_
|
| Eyesight doesn't settle, it continues to deteriorate with
| age. Lasik also deteriorates with time, normally becoming
| noticeable about ten years after the surgery. Lasik providers
| offer "touch ups" as you get older in order to ameliorate
| this.
| pknomad wrote:
| >your vision will eventually settle when you hit late 30's
|
| This statement reminds me of the surgeon who did my PRK few
| months ago. He mentioned preferring not doing procedure on
| candidates who are at least in their mid-20's. I think the
| person you're replying to probably meant specifically
| myopia whereas you're referring to presbyopia?
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Eyesight doesn't settle, it continues to deteriorate with
| age
|
| Apparently a common pattern, at least for myopia, is for
| that to stop progressing in the late 30s, but then
| focussing response to get worse (why people end up needing
| reading glasses in their 50s-ish.)
|
| Certainly that's what I've experienced, and what before I
| did I was told to expect.
| haberman wrote:
| I always assumed I'd get LASIK if my vision started to
| degrade. Then I learned that apparently LASIK can't treat
| age-related farsightedness: fixing your close vision will
| mess up your far vision. The only option AFAIU is to treat
| one eye only, so you have one eye for close vision and one
| eye for far. That doesn't sound very enticing to me.
| lttlrck wrote:
| Yep. I have had myopia since my teens and by the time I
| decided to consider LASIK at 40 my optician told me it
| wasn't worth it because my vision will start to adjust
| toward far sightedness within 10 years.
|
| Fantastic advice! A few years later my prescription started
| to drop and I wear glasses less and less.
|
| If I had LASIK I'd be looking at glasses or more LASIK
| already.
|
| I do have low prescription inserts for VR because one eye
| is slightly weaker and I found that more noticeable than
| IRL.
| fotta wrote:
| I wonder how that's going to work with differing pupillary
| distances?
| boopmaster wrote:
| It's a shame that the eye trackers are not suitable to
| understand the shape of the eye, so the image could be adapted
| for it.
|
| I feel you on this topic. I wear glasses. Wearing a really old
| pair from 20 years back is painful, but I can slip comfortably
| into a prescription from 6 years ago, I don't know what your
| experience is with that, though.
|
| I wish there were more information about this. Should I get an
| updated Rx and put in a pre-order for lenses? Who knows!?! I'm
| astigmatic, near sighted I guess, but a close up VR lens
| doesn't change focal length at all, so lenses are a must for
| me.
|
| Waiting and "seeing" ;)
| jerlam wrote:
| For some, it might be easier and cheaper to get an Apple Vision
| Pro-specific prescription and contact lenses than to update the
| lenses in the device, assuming you're ok with contacts.
| MegaDeKay wrote:
| I'm not, actually. My eyes are pretty dry and I can always
| feel those little pieces of plastic in my eye.
| bugglebeetle wrote:
| > Worse, my prescription changes every visit to the
| optometrist.
|
| FYI, unless your vision is quite bad, this is likely to bilk
| you and/or your insurance for money. I have slight-to-
| moderately bad eyesight and had optometrists trying to change
| my prescription every year as well, to no noticeable effect. I
| started getting my eyes checked only every few years and then
| taking away my prescription without purchasing glasses
| immediately. You can generally gauge how honest your
| optometrist is by how indignant this makes them.
| MegaDeKay wrote:
| Not the case for me. I schedule my appointments not from the
| last time I went, but when I start seeing crappy.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| > I wear prescription glasses and have gone from single vision
| to progressive lenses that are stupid expensive.
|
| Not really on-topic, but I've had very good luck with Zenni
| Optical.
| robg wrote:
| Wow, imagine if Apple starts integrating their stores with their
| products into connected life experiences. The stores become
| showcases for personalized experiences for life, work, and play.
| Companies are already integrating Watch and VisionPro with
| biofeedback. Might be something consumers need to deeply
| experience to believe, from the spatial desktop to music, games,
| and movies, desk to couch to bed.
| howinteresting wrote:
| You understand that this is miserable and dystopian, right? As
| humans we shouldn't be leading that kind of "integrated",
| "personalized" life. We already have too much of that going on
| with YouTube and Facebook.
| robg wrote:
| Better context switching from work to meditation to
| entertainment then sleep. Anything health serious in that
| direction with biomarkers would be far better than what we
| have now for screen time.
| robg wrote:
| Some examples:
|
| - Game play that changes with your heart rate
|
| - Switching easily from work mode to a meditation
|
| - Getting ready for bed by watching a VR sunset
|
| Imagine walking into an Apple Store and seeing as new customers
| are getting fitted and exploring these experiences on 100"
| OLEDs. Converting the masses requires displaying entirely new
| experiences, from work to play.
| howinteresting wrote:
| Wait, you're being earnest here?
| robg wrote:
| 1000%. I've worked for almost 15 years in empathic
| computing, what we have now for screen time is already
| deeply dystopian. So the question remains how next
| generation computing experiences can make our connected
| lives better. Because connectivity isnt going away, and
| maybe if we're strapping it to our face we'll be much more
| conscious of the times we choose not to.
| geraldwhen wrote:
| Ah yes, the joys of traveling through high crime mall areas to
| arrive at a crowded Apple Store. At least one has a permanent
| police presence at the door.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Ha ha, you are not at all describing my experience with the
| Apple Store in Omaha, Nebraska. YMMV (your mall may vary?).
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Or any places in metro Atlanta.
| catchnear4321 wrote:
| that's the killer app for the headset.
|
| access to a virtual apple store with no crowding, no wait,
| and no pilgrimage required. payment charged to apple card
| using an eyeball scan.
|
| hey, siri, let's go to the mall.
| CSSer wrote:
| I almost did a spit take. Siri is so painfully bad it could
| probably even screw that up.
| [deleted]
| msla wrote:
| > access to a virtual apple store with no crowding, no
| wait, and no pilgrimage required. payment charged to apple
| card using an eyeball scan.
|
| The best use of VR Apple can come up with is going to a
| store?
|
| It takes a lot to be outdone by the Metaverse, but trust
| Apple to accomplish it.
| sclarisse wrote:
| Better the mall than the office, I'll give them that
| much.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| I keep forgetting that the US is an urban hell scape where
| everyone is required to carry around automatic weapons.
|
| I was in San Francisco last year and walk from the financial
| district to the pier and I wasn't nervous at all.
|
| My wife and I "nomad" across the US to major cities across
| the US half the year. I'm comfortable walking around most
| places during the day.
| 9991 wrote:
| [flagged]
| Version467 wrote:
| The Bigscreen beyond requires a face scan and generates a custom
| interface to fit each persons face perfectly. Everything I've
| read indicates that this actually improves fit and comfort. It
| helps that the bigscreen beyond is incredibly light and small,
| but the face scan doesn't seem to be a gimmick.
|
| The Vision Pro might end up a complete failure, but requiring an
| appointment and a face scan is not a sign for this.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| This also means the device will be suboptimal for anyone other
| than the primary wearer.
|
| While the personalized parts can probably be bought for a whole
| household and swapped by the user, when including lens
| correction for instance it's just not practical and it becomes
| a single owner device.
| spdif899 wrote:
| This conversation raises two questions:
|
| 1. How much room in the headset is there for glasses? I can
| wear glasses relatively comfortably in existing gaming
| headsets like the Vive, Index, and Quest.
|
| 2. What are the stats on likelihood of requiring corrective
| lenses across a group of people, and what subset of those
| exclusively wear glasses?
|
| If I had a friend with one of these and they didn't
| accommodate glasses on the wearer, I'd just wear contacts to
| do a demo. If I were spending $3500 on a setup at home, I
| probably wouldn't scoff at an accessory cost alongside it to
| get lenses for a family member.
| [deleted]
| pavlov wrote:
| It makes it a bit harder to create positive word of mouth,
| though. You can't just try out the Vision Pro fitted for a
| friend or family member.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Yes you're right. If only Apple knew how to generate buzz and
| convince people to pay more for its products than
| competitors...
| smoldesu wrote:
| Meta has neither of those things and still managed to sell
| 15-20 million Quest units. If Apple is projecting less than
| a million units sold this year, they're going to have a
| hard time catching up to Meta's install-base, let alone
| their MAU count.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| And Apple has single digit market share in computer sells
| and barely double digit in phone sales.
|
| Are those two categories also failures for Apple?
|
| And saying that Meta can sell more worse devices than
| Apple that are cheaper and losing Meta money is like
| saying that Android manufactures can sell more $50
| unsubsidized phones than Apple.
| smoldesu wrote:
| > is like saying that Android manufactures can sell more
| $50 unsubsidized phones than Apple.
|
| Is that a wrong statement? Do they not effectively stop
| Apple from penetrating every non-US market in the world?
| scarface_74 wrote:
| People who are buying a $60 unsubsidized phone are not
| going to all the sudden be able to afford a $400+ iPhone.
| Apple has never in 40+ years catered toward the low end.
| smoldesu wrote:
| People who are priced out of an iPhone Pro are not going
| to take out a loan to pay for a headset they'll use like
| a game console. If they're not replacing their iPhone
| with it, there's no point in buying it. It's a product
| that inherently relies on an ecosystem (albeit a strong
| one) to survive. Much like the iPad and the Apple Watch,
| if the iPhone and it's app ecosystem didn't exist it
| would be DOA.
|
| So... assuming you're right, who is this headset for?
| People inside the ecosystem, who want to spend more money
| on Apple products but don't need it for anything
| particularly useful? I wager more iPhone users will own
| Quest headsets than Apple-branded ones by 2025.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| > People who are priced out of an iPhone Pro are not
| going to take out a loan to pay for a headset they'll use
| like a game console
|
| Yet people take out 0% interest loans from Apple to buy
| $3000* laptops?
|
| Besides, in most countries, people tend to pay cash for
| phones and carriers don't offer payment plans.
|
| > with it, there's no point in buying it. It's a product
| that inherently relies on an ecosystem (albeit a strong
| one) to survive
|
| You mean like you can't use an Apple Watch at all without
| an iPhone paired to it initially - not even the cellular
| Apple Watch and I doubt very many people are buying
| AirPods that don't own Apple devices. The main value add
| over other BT headsets is the tight integration.
|
| > Much like the iPad and the Apple Watch, if the iPhone
| and its app ecosystem didn't exist it would be DOA.
|
| But the iPhone does exist and Apple's services revenue
| from selling to existing users is larger than its revenue
| from the Mac and iPad revenue combined.
|
| To a first approximation, no one buys Apple Watches for
| its third party app ecosystem. Most use it for
| notifications from the phone, for workouts using first
| party apps and for times when they don't want to have
| their phones on them like running or other exercise
|
| > I wager more iPhone users will own Quest headsets than
| Apple-branded ones by 2025.
|
| And more iPod users and iPhone users own Windows PCs.
| giantrobot wrote:
| RIM and Palm sold 15-20 million units this year. If Apple
| is only projecting selling a million iPhones they're
| going to have a hard time catching up to Palm and RIM's
| install base.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Yes because Apple has always chased after market
| share....
| smoldesu wrote:
| Yep. You left out the part where Palm ate Apple's lunch
| for 15 years, to the point that Apple was forced to
| abandon the Newton platform in order to compete. Spot-on
| recounting otherwise though.
| giantrobot wrote:
| You've always got the weirdest anti-Apple position. Palm
| ate Apple's lunch? Palm spent ten years trying to
| overextend their platform, selling themselves to anyone
| that gave them the time of day, and going out of
| business. By 2007 Palm was a brand name on an out of date
| platform. The Pre was a few good ideas on a bad
| foundation and underpowered hardware.
|
| The Newton platform was never competitive. The only group
| that forced the Newton to shut down was Apple. Then Apple
| didn't compete at all in the PDA space. Palm had a better
| PDA than Apple and Ford in 2000, because neither company
| competed in that space.
|
| Meanwhile the iPhone sells more units in a year than Palm
| sold units in its lifetime.
|
| Meta's unit sales are not an unassailable moat just like
| Palm's unit sales weren't a moat. Apple setting low
| initial projections is also not necessarily indicative of
| them not taking the market seriously or not having faith
| in the product.
|
| Hopefully Meta learned the lessons of Palm, RIM, and the
| other smartphone also-rans and focuses on making their
| platform _better_. Apple 's not unstoppable. There's also
| likely plenty of market for VR/AR at all price points.
| There's certainly room for that market to grow if the
| offerings are compelling.
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| >Apple was forced to abandon the Newton platform in order
| to compete.
|
| They cancelled Newton in order to compete? I don't
| understand the assertion.
|
| Newton was cancelled by Jobs in 1997 for a number of
| reasons, but mainly because Apple had lost focus and was
| running out of money. Jobs cleaned house and only kept
| the products that could bring in larger profits more
| quickly.
|
| Palm pilots were sold as complementary products to Macs
| or PCs and synced well with either one. I don't
| understand how that is eating Apple's lunch for 15 years
| since Apple was not shipping a competing product. Does
| Boeing eat Apple's lunch since Apple doesn't sell any
| airplanes?
|
| Apple released iPod in 2001, again, not a competitor to
| Palm but it did provide a means for Apple to learn how to
| build handheld devices in very high volumes. Ignoring the
| Motorola ROKR, when Apple finally entered the smartphone
| market in 2007, Palm began to wither away.
| pavlov wrote:
| Sure, Apple knows how to market.
|
| But with the iPhone, iPad, Mac and Watch, they also had an
| army of enthusiastic users who would show off these
| portable devices to all their friends and acquaintances. An
| ad hoc product demo given by someone you know is often
| worth more than thousands of dollars in traditional
| marketing.
|
| With the Vision Pro, it's not obvious that users can give
| demos so easily. There's custom face fit, prescription
| lenses, and hygiene questions.
|
| Their previous hit devices were famously "one size fits
| all" -- the billionaire's iPhone is the same as everyone
| else's. The Watch has a bit of customization, but the
| Vision Pro takes it beyond fashion into a necessity.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| When Apple introduced the iPhone, they had lines of
| people waiting to buy one without ever trying it. The
| same was true with the iPad.
|
| Apple sold 10 million iPhones in the first year. But 10
| million was such a small number, that the chance of you
| seeing one in the wild wasn't that common.
|
| Apple is already seeding journalist with demos and it's
| getting enough buzz from people in YouTube who were
| invited to use one and people like John Gruber and Marco
| Arment that if even a small percentage of their
| listeners/readers try it not to mention natural foot
| traffic in popular Apple Stores that demand will outpace
| supply.
| rchaud wrote:
| Buzz is cheap. Matt Damon and Larry David made crypto
| ads, Apple's not going to get very far with a slow drip
| of influencer marketing.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| > Everything I've read indicates that this actually improves
| fit and comfort.
|
| Everything we have read at this point comes directly from Apple
| or from "reviewers" invited by Apple which is the same as
| coming from Apple considering Apple blacklists reviewers who
| don't play ball from futur events.
|
| At that point, we as consumers have absolutely zero meaningful
| and trustworthy information about the product and that will
| most likely be so until it is out.
| crooked-v wrote:
| The post you're replying to is talking about the Bigscreen
| Beyond headset, from a different company.
| drewg123 wrote:
| This product has opened my eyes to "AR" glasses in general, but I
| think its way overkill for what I want to do.. My use case is
| being able to code with a giant screen anywhere (plane, hotel
| room, etc). I just want a few giant editor windows and terminals
| open. I don't care about gaming, AR gimmicks, etc.
|
| From what I understand, there are a number of sub $500 options.
| (xreal air, rokud air, TCL NXTWEAR, etc). However they all get
| very mixed reviews. I wish there was a retailer that had demo
| units, as this is something I'd very much like to try before I
| buy.
| ketzo wrote:
| Apple's thesis seems to be that it is _not_ overkill -- that,
| in fact, every other option is significantly _under_ kill, and
| that's why you don't use them despite knowing they exist.
| ip26 wrote:
| Do we have any indication whether it's going to be responsive
| and fast enough for AR in sports?
|
| Maybe it's a solution looking for a problem, but the best use
| of AR has always seemed to be for activities that require full
| attention. Flying a plane, driving a car, riding a bike, etc.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| Text editing is actually a harder problem than gaming. For
| gaming you can very well do with relatively low resolution and
| big bright objects to shoot at. But displaying clear text
| requires way higher resolution.
|
| I tried Pico 4 headset, and gaming-wise it is fine, you almost
| forget you are not in your room anymore, but run a browser, and
| eyes start bleeding out from horrible font rendering. It is
| somewhat better on Quest 2, but still too bad.
| rcarr wrote:
| It's true that the text isn't great out of the box on the
| current batch of 1080p versions. Personally, I just stick the
| zoom level to 110% / 120% and then find it fine to use
| though.
| tmikaeld wrote:
| The alternatives have the whole unit in the headset in the
| front, which makes it very warm, sweaty and heavy for the neck
| - they're also nowhere near the required resolution for
| comfortably reading text in AR/VR, something that Apple seems
| to have solved.
| nomel wrote:
| This is also my use case.
|
| I use a quest pro for this. It requires relatively large font.
|
| If the rumors about the pixels per degree are true, I'll have
| trouble keeping my wallet in my pocket.
| wouldbecouldbe wrote:
| Try a few first, not everyone's eyes can manage long exposure
| to have a screen strapped to it. Kids under 11 are generally
| not allowed to use it for that reason
| CHY872 wrote:
| It's also worth noting that this is dependent on model. E.g.
| I can handle an HP Reverb G2 indefinitely, but a Meta Quest
| Pro for only about 30 minutes before I feel ill.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| I'm rooting for the simula one because of this.
| crooked-v wrote:
| I think the factor you're missing is that even the Vision Pro
| is still only about hitting the bare minimum to be able to
| comfortably do what you're looking for in terms of specs (and
| maybe not even then in terms of weight). It's 'overkill' in
| terms of pricing, but only because we're still years if not
| decades away from the tech advances needed for true standalone
| AR glasses.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| First Macintosh cost $7,400 in today's dollars when
| introduced after "Big Brother" Super Bowl ad in 1984
| ghaff wrote:
| Though most "real" computers were quite expensive by todays
| standards at the time. The editor in chief of PC Magazine
| coined Machrones Law--the computer you want always costs
| $5000 dollars and that I held pretty well for a long time.
| robocat wrote:
| There's still a similar pattern in sports - the initial
| entry-level outlay for a variety of individual sports is
| $x.
|
| And the enthusiast price is similar across very different
| sports.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| I have the xreal airs. I'm very happy with them as an "on-the
| go" screen or "I don't have my desk", but I certainly prefer my
| desk setup (triple monitor).
|
| I think the price is right for what they do.
| drewg123 wrote:
| Do you use them on an M1 macbook with Nebula? I'm curious if
| Nebula supports running terminal windows, or is just a web
| browser or something..
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| Yep, on occasion. They work just like a normal monitor.
| I've had code/terminals/etc open while watching Netflix on
| a side monitor.
|
| When Nebula is open, they simulate 3 individual monitors.
| Nebula is simply responsible for positioning the screens in
| space and keeping them where you want.
| hordehamhill wrote:
| So what about this product opened your eyes that the previous
| 15 years of VR/AR did not? Just Apple's marketing power? Or is
| there something specific about this device that made it click
| for you?
| drewg123 wrote:
| I had always looked at things like Oculus as a "gaming"
| accessory. And I demoed Google Glass about 10 years ago, and
| it didn't present a virtual screen.
|
| When seeing the Apple goggles, it clicked for me that this
| was basically a mac environment, and I started thinking how
| amazing it would be to run terminals in it, then I started
| googling for any options that were available now..
| hordehamhill wrote:
| Crazy. That's the power of marketing eh. Almost as soon as
| the DK1 was available, people were running desktop envs
| inside VR. 3D modelling, CAD, multiple floating desktops,
| watching movies videos in 3D or big fake theaters,
| panoramic photos... Google even had a 3D paintbrush program
| demo on their cardboard product half a decade or more ago.
| This is stuff all been explored before.
| peyton wrote:
| Not really, it's the power of solid product development.
| I don't want to fuck around with setting up a desktop env
| inside VR. I'm 100% confident I'll be able to walk into
| an Apple Store, buy a Vision Pro, go home, put it on, and
| get to work.
| gpm wrote:
| I have a Valve Index, I've tried it, the resolution is
| simply not good enough for it to be comfortable as a
| screen replacement. It (and all VR headsets before it)
| were simply not reaching the minimum viable product level
| of hardware for this use case.
| hordehamhill wrote:
| And, until the resolution was good enough, your eyes were
| closed? You literally could not imagine what was possible
| until an incremental upgrade in optics occurred?
| threeseed wrote:
| You do understand that there is a difference between a
| Toyota and a Porsche and whilst they are both cars it
| isn't just about marketing.
|
| Because yes those features have been available on other
| devices but what's important and different is _how_ those
| features have been implemented.
|
| And those that have used other headsets and the Vision
| Pro all say that there is a jump in the quality of
| experience that hasn't existed before.
| hyperthesis wrote:
| They tried it, but did they keep doing it? i.e. did it
| work in practice, for real-world work-flows? Was the ROI
| there, so allocating budget was a no-brainer? I think, if
| it did, it would have taken over by now.
|
| To me, the question is whether Apple has actually made
| this work.
| nomel wrote:
| It didn't work because the pixels per degree isn't
| enough, even with the Quest Pro, to show clear text. I
| still use it for coding, but it's very far from ideal.
| hyperthesis wrote:
| Apple claim text is crisp with VP. They also claim the
| resolution is similar to retina - but their stated pixel
| count and my guesstimates of usage distance suggest it's
| about half (in each dimension, so a quarter for area).
|
| If they've got it crisp, how big a deal do feel that
| would be? For yourself, and for others who've been
| interested?
| [deleted]
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| When it's at 10-15 pixels per degree like those early
| models, it's a cute demo rather than a realistic screen
| replacement.
|
| As a reference, the standard resolution for web pages is
| 47 pixels per degree.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Fair but I think that's more about you being one of today's
| lucky 10,000 [1], than anything to do with Apple or Vision
| Pro :)
|
| 1 : https://xkcd.com/1053/
| [deleted]
| jayd16 wrote:
| If you really just cared about terminals you can probably
| get an android terminal running on the quest and ssh where
| you need.
| CHY872 wrote:
| From my perspective:
|
| 1. Eye tracking for interaction vs hand tracking. If the UX
| works out, the amount of precision that can be reached is
| just far higher with less effort - just seems to be an easier
| technical problem.
|
| 2. Resolution and lensing. Most VR headsets have fairly low
| quality fresnel lenses which cause distortion near the edges
| (basically - if you want to see something in good detail, you
| have to tilt your whole head to look at it), and in general
| the resolution is not good enough to see things that are 'far
| away' (those who play games like DCS have to use the
| 'binoculars' feature with headsets to accurately see
| targets). With a device like an HP Reverb, the resolution is
| probably close to good enough, the lensing is not - the Meta
| Quest Pro has a good enough lens, but not resolution. I'd
| expect the lensing on the Apple device to be top of market,
| and we know the resolution is ~2.5x more dense than the Meta
| Quest Pro - which should be closer to going from SD to HD TV
| rather than HD to 4k. Essentially, if you try to code on a
| Meta Quest Pro, the text looks a bit blurry. With the Vision
| Pro, it won't.
|
| 3. Custom face cushion + prescription lenses. Comfort is
| everything with these devices and nothing is worse than a
| headset putting pressure in the wrong places. It'll cost much
| more, but be totally worth it.
|
| 4. People claim common nausea when using VR. I've felt it
| too, but only on certain headsets. My money is other
| companies know what causes folks to feel bad, but have had to
| make technical tradeoffs which mean that nausea remains a
| problem. I'd put money on Apple having done serious research
| into 'what causes nausea when using headsets' which causes
| this to minimised on their headsets.
|
| 5. Software stack and usability. VR stacks are typically
| fairly clunky, usually Android derived, usually behaving a
| bit like a dodgy phone. iOS/MacOS are usually not most
| feature-ful, but a core usually works very very well. Will
| likely push bar a lot higher, change the shape of industry
| (e.g. samsungs are so good because of the iPhone
| competition).
|
| Basically, having used some of these devices - the complaints
| I have with these right now, are the same things that Apple
| has real, technical solutions for. And the price isn't even
| _that_ high compared to other players in the market. Pimax
| Crystal is $1600 for what right now is a fairly buggy user
| experience. Their vapourware Pimax 12k is listed as starting
| at $2400 for the most basic model, though it's been in that
| state for well over a year.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| In response to a couple of your points:
|
| (1) The HoloLens used eye tracking. It was tough to get
| used to but it was interesting. I didn't feel that I ever
| got to the point where it was more precise than moving my
| hand to a 3d point in space.
|
| (4) I doubt it's the headset. It's almost certainly the
| application the headset is running.
| CHY872 wrote:
| I do some sim racing. I can race for hours with a Reverb
| G2 but get nauseous within minutes with a Meta Quest Pro.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| If it was easy to do well on the cheap it would already have
| been done.
|
| Apple seems to have maxed out every possible spec and put a ton
| of research and software into making a great experience.
|
| Probably will see it move down price points from here (it
| already has Pro in name so presumably that's the top).
|
| The parts will get cheaper over time as well which will help.
| nocontextpls wrote:
| [dead]
| Vinnl wrote:
| Simula is targeting that use case: https://simulavr.com
| fox86 wrote:
| yes exactly - so many options with so many games and apps and
| social media related experiences and all I (and im sure many
| others) want is a solution to "how can i travel or be in a
| hotel and open vi/emacs/terminal and code as comfortably as
| with a huge monitor(s) home setup that's impractical to haul
| around". Even hauling around 16" laptops with a solid keyboard
| is a pain and can't compete with a huge monitor(s) at home
| setup
| akira2501 wrote:
| > My use case is being able to code with a giant screen
| anywhere
|
| I've tried this on other platforms. The device gets heavy and
| your eyes get hot and sweaty, and dealing with an extension
| cord running from your head to a battery pack just adds insult
| to the inconvenience. It's not fun and it was not a major boost
| to productivity.
|
| Plus.. for $3,500 I can just buy quite a few nice monitors.
| hyperthesis wrote:
| _If_ they have solved this, it would be worth it (ROI) for
| some creative professionals.
| threeseed wrote:
| > I can just buy quite a few nice monitors
|
| But you're not taking those monitors anywhere.
| justinator wrote:
| Is it really all that hard?
|
| https://sidetrak.com/products/swivel-pro-triple-13-3
| sleepybrett wrote:
| ... you cant be serious.
| threeseed wrote:
| Perfect solution for cafes, planes, trains etc.
|
| Why even bother with the laptop when you can bring a
| desktop and diesel generator.
| teruakohatu wrote:
| That is a very clever solution.
|
| I have seen a person take out a standard moniter, laptop
| stand, keyboard and mouse from their carry on and set it
| up on an airport table.
| ghaff wrote:
| It's clever but I've never felt a burning need for more
| than a laptop screen while traveling and don't even try
| to work on planes unless it's just reading.
| codethief wrote:
| At least for me this solves nothing. If I don't want to
| hunch over a laptop keyboard & screen for ergonomic
| reasons, I'm certainly not going to add _more_ laptop-
| sized screens.
| CrazyStat wrote:
| > Plus.. for $3,500 I can just buy quite a few nice monitors.
|
| Yeah, but you can't use them in planes or hotel rooms very
| easily.
| Thrymr wrote:
| For hotel rooms, an HDMI adapter can usually get you hooked
| up to the TV. It's usually better for movies than work,
| though, and sometimes the TVs are so locked down you can't
| get it to read the HDMI in.
| [deleted]
| isykt wrote:
| Recall, as the article does, that Apple also required
| appointments for the Apple Watch. Now the Apple Watch is an
| extremely common device.
| acer589 wrote:
| This is not accurate. You had to have an appoint to try one,
| but not to buy one.
| CrampusDestrus wrote:
| Fitting a headset is nothing like fitting an armband. If you
| are going to buy it you will need to try it and get it
| customized at point of sale
| ninkendo wrote:
| They plan to let you image your face with your iPhone to
| customize the fit online. They mentioned this in the
| keynote.
| CrampusDestrus wrote:
| You are confusing the face scan for FaceTime calls with
| the one they'll do at the store for optimal fitting
| imchillyb wrote:
| I was a first-adopter. There were 'fitting' appointments
| required to purchase the first version.
|
| I purchased my Apple Watch through one of these 'fitting'
| appointments.
| neilalexander wrote:
| I had the original Apple Watch on pre-order from the online
| store and did not need to visit a physical location for
| fitting first.
| throw47474777j wrote:
| This is false. I ordered mine online the moment they first
| became available. No appointment needed.
| cubefox wrote:
| https://xkcd.com/552/
| crooked-v wrote:
| I'm not surprised, given the overwhelming focus so far that
| they've had on minimizing the bad parts of VR (motion sickness in
| particular). Since they're not going to have real mass-market
| production numbers anyway, they've gone all in on making the
| experience as positive as possible for those limited number of
| people who get their hands on one, even if that means burning a
| bunch of retail employee time on fitting and adjustments.
| Shekelphile wrote:
| [dead]
| Guest42 wrote:
| Perhaps this is advantageous as there is less demand and supply
| capacity than their other products.
| whalesalad wrote:
| This was how they rolled out the watch, too.
| bequanna wrote:
| This seems the lukewarm response from their announcement scared
| Apple and they are now trying to control the narrative to avoid
| this being perceived as a flop.
| everly wrote:
| Somewhat interestingly, this is exactly how Google rolled out the
| Glass
| servercobra wrote:
| At least it'll be at all (most?) of their US stores. I drove
| halfway across the country to NYC to get Google Glass. At least
| me and a couple friends turned it into a fun vacation.
| hghid wrote:
| Slightly tangential rant, but is anybody else becoming frustrated
| with the process of buying Apple products in Apple stores? For
| me, it started with the Apple Watch - I knew which one I wanted
| and was ready just to head down and buy one, but I was forced to
| sit through an entire "fitting" with patronising explanation on
| how to use the knob on the the side. Recently, I wanted to buy a
| new Phone. Again, I knew the one I wanted and was ready to part
| with cash and walk out with a box as quickly as possible - I
| approached a sales assistant, said: "Hi, I'd like to buy a new
| phone please" (or words to that effect) to be informed that if I
| didn't have an appointment, it would take half an hour or so to
| get somebody over. A random store nearby that also sold phones
| had no issue selling me one.
|
| The whole experience of visiting an Apple store has changed from
| being something I looked forward to just another shopping chore.
| The VR headset is a case in point - if I want to be guided
| through the process, then I will ask for that. Otherwise, just
| sell me the damn product! I guess maybe I'm just not their target
| audience any more.
| vtbassmatt wrote:
| This was exactly my experience trying to buy an Apple Watch
| from the Apple Store just before the pandemic. I had done all
| the research ahead of time and knew exactly what I needed. "Do
| you have an appointment?" No. "Oh, it'll be about 45 minutes
| before someone can help you." But I know what I want and just
| need you to ring me up. "I'm sorry, 45 minutes."
|
| Hands down the strangest retail interaction I've ever had.
| Frustrated, I went to the Best Buy literally in the mall's
| parking lot and was on my way in under 10 minutes with the
| watch I wanted. I guess Apple still won here since I bought the
| product anyhow?
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> "Do you have an appointment?" No. "Oh, it'll be about 45
| minutes before someone can help you." _
|
| Ah, yes, the Ferrari customer experience. You need to be
| selected by the manufacturer to be allowed to buy their
| product. It makes the product feel rare and exclusive, and
| the customer feel "special", when it's a consumer product
| made by the same Chinese sweatshop workers that make your
| other e-waste.
|
| Obligatory Futurama "there might be one left":
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uASUHbFEhWY
| konschubert wrote:
| No, it's just bad service, cargo culting the Steve Jobs
| Store move
| efitz wrote:
| I think it's more than that; I suspect that they have
| pretty onerous internal store processes about inventory
| control and device transfer to minimize employee theft.
| 9735194 wrote:
| I don't think Steve Jobs would have tolerated that
| bullshit. He understood the customer better than that.
| Actually, this was his main talent.
| gizajob wrote:
| Yeah absolutely. Every time I've been in my local Apple Store,
| I've basically been talked out of purchasing, or it becomes a
| huge hassle of upselling and extra worrying charges, and quite
| frankly, stupidity and lack of knowledge from the pseudo-smart
| staff. All they can do is toe the party line and what they've
| been trained to say and do, which kind of falls apart when
| faced with someone who has used Apple computers and products
| for some 25 years now. Most recently I walked in and basically
| said "I would just like to buy this phone right now" when I
| wanted an iPhone Pro Max in a rush, and the hassle that I got
| led to me walking out and going to John Lewis (uk department
| store) next door, where I said "I would like to buy an iPhone
| Pro Max" and had one in my hands 90 seconds later and was
| paying for it, at PS60 cheaper than Apple.
|
| Apples pricing structure is also annoying nowadays too. As soon
| as one specs out and bumps a laptop, one suddenly finds that
| they may as well get a different laptop, ie once you bump up a
| MacBook Air, you may as well just buy a Pro, until all of a
| sudden your PS999 purchase idea has turned into PS3000 and a
| debate about AppleCare.
|
| Ballache.
| amelius wrote:
| Is this a new sales tactic, playing hard to get?
| sircastor wrote:
| My watch buying experience was really straightforward. I knew
| which watch I wanted, and which band - really the only thing I
| needed to be sure of was the band size (as I'd not worn one
| before). I'd say the whole thing took about 10 minutes.
|
| This is anecdotal of course. Your experience is yours. Sorry
| you went through that. My experiences have all been pretty
| smooth.
|
| As for the Vision Pro, I think we're dealing with a very
| different kind of product. They want everyone to have a
| positive experience, and this is the kind of thing no one has
| used even if you've used VR headsets, you've not used the
| product they created. They want to make sure you're not getting
| stuck on fit or comfort.
| stalfosknight wrote:
| From Apple's perspective, if you know exactly what you want
| that is what online Apple Store is for.
|
| If you want to see it in person / try it on / have questions,
| that is what the physical Apple Store is for.
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| Sounds like you want a self-checkout aisle for Apple Store
| products but its really just "IT Pro Line" or something,
| someone just charges you for what you want.
| inopinatus wrote:
| "I've tried to decorate it nicely to keep the inmates happy,
| but there's very little one can do. I never go in there now
| myself. If ever I am tempted, which these days I rarely am, I
| simply look at the sign written over the door and shy away."
|
| "That one?" said Fenchurch, pointing, rather puzzled, at a blue
| plaque with some instructions written on it.
|
| "Yes. They are the words that finally turned me into the hermit
| I have now become. It was quite sudden. I saw them, and I knew
| what I had to do."
|
| The sign said:
|
| _Hold stick near centre of its length. Moisten pointed end in
| mouth. Insert in tooth space, blunt end next to gum. Use gentle
| in-out motion._
|
| "It seemed to me," said Wonko the Sane, "that any civilization
| that had so far lost its head as to need to include a set of
| detailed instructions for use in a packet of toothpicks, was no
| longer a civilization in which I could live and stay sane."
|
| -- Douglas Adams, _So Long and Thanks for All The Fish_ , Pan
| Books (1984)
| kreitje wrote:
| A few years back I bought a MBP online with the pickup option.
| I picked it up, declined their assistance setting it up and
| went about my day.
|
| I get home later that day, start to set it up and it's locked
| to employees of a bank in Canada. Live support is no help so I
| take it back, only to find out the serial number did not match
| that on the box. They had their security guard quietly come
| stand near me until they figured out what they wanted to do.
|
| The sales guy told me since they can't prove I stole it they
| were giving me a different one. I think they knew it was
| previously returned and realized they got scammed by someone
| else the first time around.
|
| This time I made sure I could login before I left.
|
| Within the return window the new 16" came out at the same price
| so I took it in and swapped it for the 16". They just took it,
| handed me the new laptop, transferred Apple Care and sent me on
| my way. It made sense as they didn't bother to verify the
| box/device serial number with me. They took my word and
| processed everything in a matter of minutes.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| That corporate lock thing is called DEP, device enrollment
| program. It used to be easy to bypass (just don't connect to
| internet during setup) but then it would bug you constantly
| once you did. On T2/M1/M2 macs it's no longer bypassable
| similar to the apple account lock anti theft feature (which
| is a different thing)
|
| Apple can remove it of course. It was probably a laptop
| stolen from the bank or their suppliers, then returned to
| Apple to whitewash it.
|
| I'm not surprised this happens. What I am surprised about is
| that Apple apparently sells a returned item to another
| customer as new. Pretty sure that's not their policy and in
| most cases illegal. Perhaps they checked the seals (for
| activating DEP you don't need to open the box at all!) but
| still this shouldn't happen.
|
| Normally these items go through a cleaning and reimaging
| process and then end up on the refurb store at a reduced
| price.
| seanthemon wrote:
| Lesson learned: next time, scam them
| brianwawok wrote:
| I just bought on the website and stuff showed up. The stores
| are for moms and kids.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| You can just say that you know what you're doing and don't need
| help. Maybe with a reassuring "i'm sure".
| wildrhythms wrote:
| Right lol this is also my experience. Do you need help
| setting it up? No thank you. Bye! I've never felt patronized
| at the Apple store, honestly it's the one electronics store
| where I feel like the staff kind of know what they're doing
| and are hovering around tentatively ready to help me actually
| purchase the thing.
| gnicholas wrote:
| If you want to buy an iPhones with minimal interaction, just
| use the website or app, for in store pickup. Takes no time at
| all!
|
| I will agree that it's ridiculous for customers to have to wait
| for an appointment to buy a watch band, which I've seen. There
| were several employees standing around at the time,
| inexplicably.
| XorNot wrote:
| But what I want is to get phone now. That's half the point of
| going to store - the place where the product is stocked.
| somsak2 wrote:
| that's what in store pick up means -- you still get the
| phone right away.
| gnicholas wrote:
| It seems unintuitive, but the fastest way to get an iPhone
| when you're standing in a store may be to pull out your
| phone and make a purchase on the website.
|
| This won't always be the case (I've never been told I
| needed an appointment to buy an iPhone, and I've bought
| them at several different Apple Stores over the years), but
| if you run into an intransigent employee, give this a try.
|
| At the very least, the employees should be trained to tell
| people about the in-store pickup option. That would avoid
| leaving a bad taste in the mouth of customers who just want
| to get in and get out.
| sitzkrieg wrote:
| you know, i tried this first time recently. placed order at
| 10am. no pickup that day. ready at 1pm next day! go to store.
| had to wait ten minutes after i wated at the door to checkin
| my appt (why). whole time employees small talking me. guy
| finally finds my box and shoves it in my hands and i was
| finally free from that cursed overpriced garbagehole
| rchaud wrote:
| > The VR headset is a case in point - if I want to be guided
| through the process, then I will ask for that.
|
| The reason this is done is to:
|
| a) limit bad online reviews due to ill fitting headsets or
| unfamiliarity with the controls
|
| b) to ensure that people looking to buy it have their
| expectations managed
|
| c) to give it the upscale, prestige feeling of going to a
| tailor for a fitted suit. Useless theater for a tech product,
| but Apple loves pageantry.
| type0 wrote:
| Pageantry is the perfect word to summarize what Apple is
| sleepybrett wrote:
| Also probably because of the prescription lens inserts.
| Dudester230602 wrote:
| They should do the same but for returns:
|
| 1) Give explanation to you why you should reconsider
|
| 2) Make you fill out a form stating reasons for returning
|
| 3) Refund in cash giving you small notes
| [deleted]
| stetrain wrote:
| If I know exactly what I want and don't need the guided
| experience, I just order it on the Apple Store mobile app then
| pick it up in-store.
| PDTao5Q2TMaTp7U wrote:
| Buying online with in-store pickup is the best way to go these
| days. You can take your time evaluating which options you want
| int the comfort of your own home, and then be in and out of the
| store pretty quickly without worrying about delivery.
|
| That's what I did when I got my last phone, and will do that on
| every subsequent purchase.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| two months ago i walked in with a macbook pro spec i wanted,
| they confirmed they had one in stock. We did the payment dance
| and i walked out. Total time in store ~5m.
| meroes wrote:
| While my dad shopped for one for my sister I had time to drink
| a coffee, find a Mother's Day gift of chocolates, and do some
| work (the Apple Store outside Apple Park has all this).
| sq_ wrote:
| Slight tangent to your tangent, but, after a poor experience
| last week, I'm really disappointed in how Apple handles
| specifically support in their stores.
|
| Historically, I've been able to just throw in a few little bits
| of "yup, I know how that works" so that their techs realize
| that I know what I'm talking about and let up with the
| patronizing assumptions about what I do and don't know.
| However, this time, when dealing with a newly-present heat
| issue during charging after that very store replaced the
| battery in the phone (so both a safety issue and one that would
| be warranty if it could be determined that it was caused by the
| repair), the tech just kept repeating that there was no way
| that their work could've caused it and going "these phones
| don't have a fan to cool them like our laptops". No matter what
| I said, I couldn't get them to have an actual discussion with
| me, so now I'm stuck waiting for a call from their safety
| support team since it's a heat issue.
|
| Hopefully I can get somewhere with the phone support people,
| but it's really disappointing that they don't train their techs
| in the stores to feel out what a customer knows or at least
| drop some of the "oh the user doesn't know anything" if
| customers are showing that they do, in fact, know things.
| type0 wrote:
| > Hopefully I can get somewhere with the phone support
| people, but it's really disappointing that they don't train
| their techs in the stores to feel out what a customer knows
| or at least drop some of the "oh the user doesn't know
| anything" if customers are showing that they do, in fact,
| know things.
|
| I think they have homogenized support to treat each user as
| equally non-technical, it's by design. Apple is like a sect,
| they need to have a strong grip on their users.
| foldr wrote:
| > Recently, I wanted to buy a new Phone. [...]
|
| I don't say this to challenge your story, but I found it
| completely straightforward to buy an iPhone in an Apple Store
| recently (in London).
| unreal37 wrote:
| I personally have had the experience of having to talk to two
| people (with a third person required to fetch the product
| from the back room) at an Apple store in Toronto. You stand
| there waiting on the side for 10 minutes while the gopher
| finishes with a couple of other customers.
| crazygringo wrote:
| No, I have no idea what you're talking about:
|
| > _it would take half an hour or so to get somebody over_
|
| That's only the case for genius bar appointments or an extended
| consultation when they're super busy or something. If you just
| want to buy a phone you've already decided on, you ask the
| nearest person and they grab it and you pay for it.
|
| It sounds like there was maybe just a miscommunication in your
| case. There is no trend here.
| whstl wrote:
| Yep. There's often people there whose job is to sell without
| an appointment. At my local stores they normally stand next
| to the accessories, where you can just grab stuff from the
| shelf.
|
| But you can ask them to grab a specific model of iPhone,
| iMac, etc, for you if you don't need information.
| Groxx wrote:
| I've known multiple people, and attended with one, who walked
| in, picked up the watch, and left in a few minutes total.
| That's also how I bought a laptop once (the rest online).
|
| Apple stores are often willing to spend enormous amounts of
| time with you if you ask for help, but I've never seen them
| stay in your way when you say "no" and that you're ready to
| pay and leave.
|
| (Obviously it _can_ happen, but they 're some of the most-
| standardized tech stores out there. If it were A Thing(tm),
| it would be everywhere.)
| bee_rider wrote:
| Some people have trouble rejecting help and feel awkward
| doing so. Of course, it is a totally normal thing to do, to
| reject help, and people should practice it!
| stereolambda wrote:
| It would be interesting if they tried to further emulate the
| famous behavior of luxury brands like Rolex, which may not
| deign to sell you anything if you just ask. Just recreate that
| aura for the mass consumer.
| zimpenfish wrote:
| I normally order online for collection and have never had an
| issue there - most I've waited for collection is about 5
| minutes during peak times when the store was absolutely rammed
| with people (Oxford Street, London, a Friday lunchtime.)
|
| But I did once visit a store with someone wanting to buy a
| Watch and there was no forced sitting through any fitting or
| explanations. Just some questions about which Watch, if they
| already had a phone to connect it to, etc., and we were in and
| out of the store in under 20 minutes (Covent Garden, London, a
| Saturday afternoon, which is reasonably but not terrifyingly
| busy.)
|
| ++anecdata
| raverbashing wrote:
| Wow this is bad
|
| It seems they made the experience for the people they show in
| their commercials (some "tech unconcerned happy people" who
| knows just barely enough to pick the Apple product, has "good
| vibes mandolin music" all over them and somehow makes 300k/yr)
| f6v wrote:
| I think 99% of customers do need an explanation on how to use
| the watch.
| deanCommie wrote:
| This sounds to me like the issue of when technical people call
| Tech Support with an advanced problem and the agent forces them
| to first check their monitor is on and reset.
|
| It's frustrating, sure, but look at if from the other side: 99%
| of the people they deal with are completely incapable, and 90%
| of their problems ARE solved by a simple reboot.
|
| Apple/iPhone is the ubiquitous phone for everyone from CTOs to
| grandma's.
|
| The in store experience is optimized to make sure a person that
| has been stuck in a cave for 30 years and can walk out with a
| device optimized for their needs.
|
| I bet they think that people like you will just buy online and
| choose in store pickup...
| lostgame wrote:
| Absolutely bizarre. My experience in Toronto buying an Apple
| Watch on an extremely busy day was 5-10min in and out and there
| was no attempt to 'fit' me.
|
| Told them what they wanted, they went back and got it, they
| brought a POS so I could pay, I was easily out of there in
| 10min.
|
| Never had any issues like this whatsoever in more than a decade
| of shopping at these stores?
| galoisscobi wrote:
| Not been my experience when I've bought apple watches. Product
| walk through were always optional that store employees were
| happy to offer, I always skipped them, brought the watch and
| was on my way.
| kkielhofner wrote:
| Was this your first Apple Watch?
|
| When I last went to an Apple Store to get a new one (while
| wearing my current Apple Watch) I just said "I know what I want
| and what I'm doing".
|
| They handed me the box on the spot in the middle of the store
| and I paid with the mobile PoS terminal they carry.
|
| I was in and out in less than five minutes and this was at
| their very busy Chicago Michigan Avenue store. Maybe they're
| that efficient because it is busy but like most Apple Store
| experiences I've had it was very fast and efficient - they
| didn't get in the way of me spending my money, that's for sure.
| graypegg wrote:
| This is closer to my experience around late 2019. (Toronto
| Ontario Canada, at the time.)
|
| Went in, saw someone on staff fixing up a display unit, asked
| if I could buy an S5 apple watch, he asked if I had any
| questions, I said none, tapped card on the mobile POS thing,
| and then in maybe 10 minutes, someone else came out,
| apologized for the wait, and handed me my box.
|
| It's possible it's changed over covid though. Makes sense
| they would want the in-store experience to be more white-
| glove if they were seeing less foot traffic.
| devilbunny wrote:
| Lack of foot traffic was their choice. Apple stores were
| far more picky about COVID than the local norm. You had to
| show an appointment or a "ready for pickup" email to be
| allowed into the store. And that was early 2021, when I was
| fully vaccinated (and had the card to prove it).
| ghaff wrote:
| I picked up a couple of things during Covid to save on
| sales tax. Couldn't even enter the store.
| mr_cyborg wrote:
| The Genius Bar also takes forever to get appointments at now
| compared to how it was. I think they maintained close to the
| same number of retail locations as their customer base
| exploded, which probably works out better economically but is
| far less convenient.
| nightpool wrote:
| Can't you also buy these products online? I'm not surprised
| that the in-store experience has become such a high touch
| affair when the customer base that would have wanted less
| interaction have already self-selected out by not going to the
| store at all
| nostromo wrote:
| But they shouldn't assume that.
|
| I just had this exact experience because my phone was
| irrevocably ruined, so I needed to pick a replacement up the
| same day.
|
| The Apple Store was a very poor experience with a sales agent
| I knew more than trying, repeatedly, to explain to me things
| like backup, Apple Care, etc., etc. I also for some reason
| had to talk to four different people, and the only one that
| could actually help me was busy while everyone else in the
| store was standing around. It should have taken 10 minutes
| and it took the better part of an hour.
| isykt wrote:
| What happened when you told them, "I'm all set without a
| demo, please just ring me up ?" Did they refuse?
| unreal37 wrote:
| Near me, they keep the products locked up in the back
| room, and the person who you talk to on the floor often
| doesn't have direct access and needs to find the person
| who has access to get them the product.
|
| It makes sense. There's not a pile of 1000 Macbooks on a
| pallet back there. It's locked up in a cage, and they go
| in and get one at a time.
|
| But makes for a slow shopping experience.
| messe wrote:
| That's not an answer to the question posed.
| bozhark wrote:
| Not even gemstones are that stupidly processed.
| callalex wrote:
| Gemstones are also not worth anywhere near what the gem
| store would like you to think. Just try selling them back
| to the store you bought them from and see how much less
| they are willing to give you.
| mattmaroon wrote:
| I wouldn't assume they're assuming it, they probably have
| data to tell them that.
|
| I've not gone into a store for an item when I already knew
| exactly what I want since the pandemic. Even if I need it
| same day I'll buy it online and pick it up. That's probably
| most people now, and they probably know it.
| burntalmonds wrote:
| Yeah, the only time I go to the store is to check out a new
| product in person. Even if I decide I want it, I go home and
| order it online.
| hghid wrote:
| That is true, but I'm sometimes I'm frankly far too impatient
| to wait for delivery.
| jeffdn wrote:
| You can frequently get same-day delivery for a nominal fee,
| even within a few hours! My partner's phone broke after she
| dropped it one too many times at about 7:30am on a recent
| morning, and we had a new one in hand without leaving the
| house by 10:30am.
| throwanem wrote:
| Yes, and then too sometimes you order for same-day
| delivery and the store hands the bag to an Uber Eats
| driver (they actually do partner with Uber Eats for
| courier service!) who mysteriously never turns up to hand
| it off to you. Then you have to spend a few hours on the
| phone with Apple to make sure you don't end up paying for
| a phone you never got.
|
| I don't blame the guy who stole it, although I might if
| I'd had to hold the bill for his act of sticky-fingered
| entrepreneurship. I _do_ blame Apple for using a service,
| whose drivers normally handle $50 in food at a time, to
| deliver nonperishable and highly portable items of 20 or
| more times that value.
| soligern wrote:
| Just order it then go and pick it up in store. High touch
| customer service is universally considered a good thing,
| but for someone like you, you can order it online or just
| pick it up in store.
| hghid wrote:
| I'm not sure I agree with "universally", I bet there are
| a awful lot of people who can't stand that level of
| service and find it quite uncomfortable. I get that I
| could order ahead etc, but that makes an impulse purchase
| into a multi-step process. I'm sure the multi-trillion
| dollar company felt that pain when I still bought their
| product only from a different place. Oh wait... ;-)
| devilbunny wrote:
| Except when you _don 't want_ the high-touch service.
| Good service companies recognize this and have some
| accommodation for the customer who knows what they want
| and are there to _buy_ , not shop.
|
| If I'm there to shop, I'll ask them to point me to what I
| want to try out and do so. If I'm buying clothes, for
| example, high-touch is great. "I like this style, but
| this manufacturer doesn't fit me well, do you have
| something similar you recommend?"
|
| But when I needed a new Apple Watch charger on a trip, I
| walked into the store, said I needed one, and the only
| question was did I want USB-A or USB-C? A, thanks, sold.
| I was in and out in less time than it took my wife to
| find and use the restroom in the mall.
|
| One bizarre experience I had was when I had a Genius Bar
| appointment to fix an inaudible handset speaker on an
| iPhone (apparently they have a program that runs through
| a wide gamut of frequencies to knock out any odd bits of
| dust). Yep, it worked. Then the Genius asked me if I
| would make a phone call (can't, it's a backup phone, no
| SIM) or FaceTime call (um, to whom?) to test it. It's
| work hours, the people I would call would be busy at
| work, how about I just call your phone? No, can't share
| that.
|
| I said, Genius, why don't you have a generic thing that I
| can FaceTime and you can respond to that's part of your
| work identity? I don't need your personal info. Just
| "applestore-ZIPcode-[five-digit one-time
| account]@icloud.com" would work.
| riscy wrote:
| you can buy the product online and choose store pickup. can
| be ready within hours since it's from their inventory.
| [deleted]
| ghaff wrote:
| I usually place an order online and pickup at the store for
| reasons. Never had it take more than a few minutes. I did
| check out the Apple Watch Ultra in a store to make sure I was
| OK with the size and the band but again very straightforward.
| jldugger wrote:
| > if I didn't have an appointment, it would take half an hour
| or so to get somebody over.
|
| It probably goes a long way to explain things if you know that
| Watch launched while Ahrendts was SVP of Retail at Apple. She
| came from Burberry, a luxury fashion retailer, and clearly had
| a vision for Apple Stores that was not compatible with the high
| throughput & demand they regularly get.
| mft_ wrote:
| They seem to inject additional people into their processes, for
| reasons I can't discern but I'm sure exist.
|
| For example, even buying something as simple as an Airtag means
| waiting for a random employee to be free, who then gets one for
| you, only to then wait for another different employee to be
| free to allow you to pay for it. Maybe that's just about theft
| prevention?
|
| My one "Genius Bar" experience (recently) in Munich was really
| crappy - told to check in, then told to wait by a table where I
| was ignored; when I re-approached someone, told to wait
| somewhere else... and watching the flow of things, it became
| very apparent that my 'appointment' had no value - I was helped
| in a queue after people who'd just walked in.
| crooked-v wrote:
| The giant reason to do this with the headset in particular is
| that getting it wrong means a literally painful and/or nauseous
| experience. Meta is willing to let that happen with its $300
| headsets mostly bought as gifts for children, but the bar is a
| lot higher for a $3500 device and Apple is already acutely
| aware of the blowback from "you're holding it wrong"-type
| scenarios.
| ben_w wrote:
| I keep reading stories about experiences like yours, but no,
| never experienced that myself.
|
| But then, it might be about my buying habits: the cheapest
| thing which suits my needs, and only when I actually need it
| rather than as soon as it comes out, so I'm almost never there
| at the sales peak for whatever it is I'm getting.
| type0 wrote:
| The Apple store experience is meant to be initializing. It's
| the mindset that they want their users to be in, otherwise
| you're not a typical Apple user.
| browningstreet wrote:
| Buy it online via the app and designate the store as a pick-up.
| You will barely have to speak with anyone. Stores are busy,
| that's just how it is. I've bought all the products you
| mentioned and didn't have to deal with any "help" or delay.
| threeseed wrote:
| You can use the online Apple Store then either have it
| delivered or pickup in person.
|
| Or purchase from the hundreds of third party resellers who also
| sell them.
|
| There are many people especially with the Apple Watch who
| aren't experts at technology and so having personalised service
| makes sense for them. And for you there are obviously many
| other options.
| McSwag wrote:
| Just order the item you want for store pickup before you leave
| and it's usually ready by the time you get there. That's my
| experience and it's quite literally in-n-out.
| amelius wrote:
| Remember folks, it is your right as a consumer to try it and
| return it if you don't like it.
| thr0waway001 wrote:
| Totally makes sense. It needs to be sold exactly like a vehicle.
|
| They probably only want serious people trying these things. And
| by serious I mean people with the money to spend and intent to
| buy it.
|
| My first thought when I saw this was how will this work in an
| Apple store with every Tom, Dick and Mary with at most $100 bucks
| in their bank account and a bunch of soon to be maxed out credit
| cards trying this thing but knowing full well that they cannot
| afford it and will probably not buy it.
|
| It would be a waste of time for Apple store employees to demo
| this thing for people who are thousands of dollars away from
| being able to afford it.
|
| By making it appointment only they can reduce the pool of people
| who would waste their time.
|
| And no, I'm not trying to be a snob, in fact, I am one of these
| people who could never afford this thing. They'd have to sell it
| at $500 for it to be in my price range.
|
| I was just thinking about the logistics.
| avar wrote:
| They could do it without appointments. Just require that
| prospective buyers bring their car keys.
|
| Then tell anyone driving something less fancy than a Mercedes
| S-class or equivalent to fuck off :-)
|
| It's funny to see a company rooted in jeans and T-shirt
| California counterculture struggle to reinvent something that
| would have been painfully obvious to any luxury store owner
| before the 20th century: throw out anyone not wearing
| sufficiently fancy clothing.
| anonymouse008 wrote:
| They need to go back and read the Newton's postmortem. With every
| new detail about this devices release - it's becoming clearer and
| clearer this device just is not ready.
|
| I was excited iPad apps could be directly ported over to
| VisionPro - but now after hacking with it in XCode - it's evident
| this device and its APIs have no idea that _customer intent
| drives context_.
|
| This lack of customer awareness is so interesting because all the
| designers in WWDC videos outline context with great labor. They
| forget a space is only part of an intent, and an intent is _not_
| a click or scroll. Intents demand a certain context, not the
| other way around - they're scratching at old scars of starting
| with technology first then working to some customer experience.
|
| Everyone pulls up the SJ D3 interview to say VisionPro is what
| Steve would want - but just like everything he says, if you only
| quickly listen you miss the full history and intent - he says
| something along the lines of "headphones are just as good as
| amazing audio systems, displays on your face need to get better
| before we can recreate the plasma tv experience" - only after a
| lot of reflection did I come to understand this means audio
| passive consumption and display passive consumption. The customer
| intent for a display on face context is to recreate watching a
| plasma tv - following this intent means you end up with something
| completely different than what is happening now (I think SOL has
| nailed this, but perhaps focused too niche on the use case). Only
| later do you pull forward interactivity - as in the delay between
| headphones and Siri, which is still lagging.
| tikkun wrote:
| > This lack of customer awareness is so interesting because all
| the designers in WWDC videos outline context with great labor.
| They forget a space is only part of an intent, and an intent is
| not a click or scroll. Intents demand a certain context, not
| the other way around - they're scratching at old scars of
| starting with technology first then working to some customer
| experience.
|
| Could you elaborate on that? I'd like to better understand
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| > They need to go back and read the Newton's postmortem. With
| every new detail about this devices release - it's becoming
| clearer and clearer this device just is not ready.
|
| In fact their actions suggest they already know this. It feels
| like Apple felt obliged to show .. something, anything .. after
| so many years of work (7 years? Just a guess).
|
| I think this limited appointment-only release is part of a
| cautious wait-and-see approach.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| > They need to go back and read the Newton's postmortem. With
| every new detail about this devices release - it's becoming
| clearer and clearer this device just is not ready.
|
| Neither was the Mac that sold abysmally for years and Apple
| was propped up by the Apple // series
|
| And neither was the iPod. They sold less than 1 million in
| the first two years.
|
| Or the Apple iPhone that barely captured 1% market share tte
| first year (Jobs stated goal)
|
| Or the Apple Watch which was slow, with bad battery life and
| a horrible SDK. It took years for Apple to have a coherent
| focus.
| anonymouse008 wrote:
| Number of unit sales isn't the measure of success for a new
| paradigm. Everyone knows this. The quality of ideas and the
| affordances to achieve human aims is what makes a success.
| frankfrankfrank wrote:
| [dead]
| dgellow wrote:
| It feels like they want to use this first version of the Vision
| Pro as a sort of public beta release? My speculation is that
| their target audience is quite niche, on purpose, that they want
| to see how it performs in real life, while controlling the
| onboarding and working on ramping up their production processes.
| And a future version would target the general public. Just my
| personal thoughts.
|
| It's not for me in its current form, I feel I wouldn't be able to
| deal with a heavy and warm mask on my face isolating me from my
| surrounding for more than a few minutes (quite sure I would be
| sweating a good amount while wearing it...). Hopefully we will
| get something closer to Dennou Coil soon :)
| jackson1442 wrote:
| My thinking as well, it's very similar to how the first Apple
| Watch was rolled out: appointment for a "fitting" with a device
| that was eventually completely overhauled (so much as to call
| the v1 the "series 0" due to how different the v2 was). I think
| they want to see how users actually want to use this thing then
| rework the hardware to suit that.
|
| Also, they want developers to figure out what they want to do
| with it. If it was a "development kit" people would still try
| to get their hands on one like with the Apple Silicon dev kit,
| but with this anyone can try it out if they have the money and
| time to do so.
| 01100011 wrote:
| As I wondered last month:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36253348
|
| > Maybe Apple doesn't actually want to sell a lot of a first
| generation product they know will quickly evolve?
|
| It's an impressive tech demo pushed out early to support the
| stock price, claim trademarks, gauge interest, and allow
| developers to begin building the ecosystem. Apple isn't going to
| go in with both feet on a product with dubious market potential.
| seydor wrote:
| going higher and higher up the exclusivity chain
| robg wrote:
| To scale into the mass market...
| robg wrote:
| Love this so much - doing things that don't scale well.
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.ph/ctAKf
| wnevets wrote:
| This is the correct approach for VR IMO, especially or a brand
| like apple. It's going to continue being a niche within a niche
| for years to come and you don't want to expose how immature &
| jank the entire industry is to normal people yet.
| hospitalJail wrote:
| Maybe this is cynical, but my marketing class taught us to look
| at everything Apple does under the view of the best marketers in
| the world.
|
| The marketers told them to go for the 'exclusive club' vibe by
| doing in-store appointments.
|
| Wonder if there is some messaging by the Apple leader at the
| appointment that explains how this is cool, exclusive, luxury.
| Reinforcing the purchase decision.
|
| Need to make the barrier to entry extra high too, so when people
| laugh at it in public, they are fully committed to defend it. Who
| knows maybe they will go full abercrombie and make sure people
| who are older than 40 get it slightly later than 20 year old
| females. Eventually it gets normalized and people use it.
| georgespencer wrote:
| > my marketing class taught us to look at everything Apple does
| under the view of the best marketers in the world.
|
| I think there's a risk that your marketing class is being
| taught by folks who have a limited grasp of how trivial the
| discipline of marketing can be when a company's products -- in
| Apple's case: iPhone, MacBooks Pro & Air, iPad, AirPods, Apple
| Watch -- rank among the leading products in their categories by
| nearly any measure, from consumer satisfaction to performance
| benchmarks.
|
| > The marketers told them to go for the 'exclusive club' vibe
| by doing in-store appointments.
|
| "The marketers" told them the same thing for the Apple Watch
| launch in 2015, and each iPhone launch since 2014 (?). The
| article suggests that the in-store requirement for Vision Pro
| stems from the need for multiple components of the device to be
| tailored to the purchaser's head/face/vision.
|
| > Who knows maybe they will go full abercrombie and make sure
| people who are older than 40 get it slightly later than 20 year
| old females.
|
| It's almost impossible for me to imagine that someone with
| sufficient interest in marketing to intentionally study it in a
| class could entertain this idea, even as a joke. It betrays a
| near total misconception of the discipline of marketing, and
| Apple's relationship to it.
| hospitalJail wrote:
| This is some blatant rhetoric. I cannot help but to call this
| out when I see it.
|
| > rank among the leading products in their categories by
| nearly any measure, from consumer satisfaction to performance
| benchmarks.
|
| When you say it generically like this, it has no meaning.
| Among? Top 50%
|
| You could say this about any company. Its marketing jargon
| from the best in the world at marketing.
|
| This is no different than when they plaster 'Security' and
| 'Privacy' in their ads, yet have worse security than
| Android(if we use pegasus and zerodium for security) and have
| been known to hand over data(PRISM, data in Russian and
| chinese data centers).
|
| It has little to no meaning, but it sounds really positive
| when you say words like 'rank among' and 'nearly any measure'
|
| Let me pull up single and multithreaded bench marks. "Oh not
| that measure". "Well it was among, top 36.6 percentile".
| FormerBandmate wrote:
| Apple utterly destroys every Android manufacturer in
| Geekbench and it's competitive in AnTuTu, ahead of everyone
| for half the year
| georgespencer wrote:
| > When you say it generically like this, it has no meaning.
| Among? Top 50%
|
| Here are two measures for you: 1) look at the last ten
| years of Consumer Reports smartphone rankings. How often is
| the latest iPhone ranked in the top 3? 2) look at the
| single core performance, battery life, and screen quality
| of the original 13" M1 MacBook Air. Now find me a laptop
| with commensurate performance at the same price point from
| that time.
|
| > You could say this about any company. Its marketing
| jargon from the best in the world at marketing.
|
| The urge to suggest that you seek a refund of the tuition
| fees for your marketing class is tempered only by a growing
| feeling that it might have been an elective at high school?
|
| > This is no different than when they plaster 'Security'
| and 'Privacy' in their ads, yet have worse security than
| Android(if we use pegasus and zerodium for security)
|
| Trusted Reviews:[^1] "iPhones are more secure by default.
| Disk encryption is enabled by default, apps from the App
| Store go through a stricter vetting process, and Apple
| doesn't gather users' personal details for advertising
| purposes"
|
| Norton:[^2] "There's no doubt Android is a bit more of a
| Wild West than iOS, but, with the right precautions, it can
| still be a safe platform."
|
| InfoSecurityBuzz:[^3] "Android had 547 vulnerabilities in
| the year 2021, compared to 357 for iOS. While both Android
| and iOS have vulnerabilities [...] Android has more overall
| vulnerabilities [and] a higher proportion of Android
| vulnerabilities are considered to have a low attack
| complexity, which means that they are easier to exploit."
|
| The claim that Android is more secure than iOS seems like
| pure fantasy. Can you substantiate it?
|
| > and have been known to hand over data(PRISM, data in
| Russian and chinese data centers).
|
| Any foreign company operating a data center in China is
| required to contract with a domestic partner for legal
| ownership of the data within the facility and physical
| security of the location. In this regard, as with PRISM,
| Apple is no different to Amazon, Microsoft, et al.
|
| The only data stored in Apple's Chinese data center is that
| of its Chinese customers, and I do not believe Apple
| markets its products as "privacy"-focused in China, where
| there is almost literally no concept of privacy.
|
| Apple has in fact publicly resisted repeated attempts from
| state and federal authorities to have it insert backdoors
| into iOS, and launched an amicus legal claim with Meta
| against the NSO group.
|
| But anyway, let's pretend for a second that I grant you all
| of these fantastical and unsubstantiated claims about
| iPhone privacy and security, I have some direct questions
| for you!
|
| 1. Can you explain to me why "the marketers" are adopting
| the same strategy for Vision Pro's launch as they have for
| every other flagship Apple launch in the last decade?
|
| 2. Can you explain why a company with an estimated NPS in
| range(+65,+80) even _needs_ the best marketers in the
| world?
|
| 3. Can you explain why you seem to believe that it is the
| job of Apple's marketing team to "normalise" something ex
| post facto? Isn't it a well understood axiom of Apple's
| philosophy that until the technology is mature (in this
| case: thin / light) enough to create a resonant user
| experience, they will not enter a market?
|
| 4. Can you find me that mythical laptop computer to compete
| with MacBook Air?
|
| 5. Can you see a trend looking back at the top 3
| smartphones in Consumer Reports' surveys over the last
| decade?
|
| [^1]: https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/mobile-news/are-
| iphones-...
|
| [^2]: https://uk.norton.com/blog/mobile/android-vs-ios-
| which-is-mo...
|
| [^3]: https://informationsecuritybuzz.com/ios-vs-android-
| the-more-....
| hospitalJail wrote:
| Clearly bad faith and incivility, calling a MBA marketing
| class high school level just because it doesn't fit your
| world view.
|
| You share links to random websites that fit your
| narrative. Its dangerous to listen to your opinion, you
| might get mureded like jamal khashoggi with a pegasus
| hack. Or maybe it will be mere nudes like Jeff Bezos. Has
| anyone gotten hacked with Pegasus on Android? I couldn't
| find any examples.
|
| Your identity is wrapped up in Apple products, its scary
| what they can do to a human brain.
| georgespencer wrote:
| Isn't it funny that in your previous reply, you suggested
| that if you offered a rebuttal of my point around
| performance, I would try to move the goalposts:
|
| > Let me pull up single and multithreaded bench marks.
| "Oh not that measure". "Well it was among, top 36.6
| percentile".
|
| And now you say:
|
| > You share links to random websites that fit your
| narrative. Its dangerous to listen to your opinion,
|
| If you can reject the mass of empirical data supporting
| the view that MacBook Air M1 offers unparalleled
| processor performance and battery life in its class and
| form factor, then I'm not really sure what to say. Good
| luck with the MBA which educated you sufficiently to
| suggest that Apple's marketing team might profile
| customers in retail stores based on age and gender.
|
| > Your identity is wrapped up in Apple products, its
| scary what they can do to a human brain.
|
| I'd say my identity is more wrapped up in helping the
| world to avoid making facile and conspiratorial
| statements about marketing strategies so hopelessly out
| of touch with reality that they can make someone
| apparently educated to a postgraduate level appear
| roughly as superficially informed as a high school
| student.
|
| (Sent from my IBM Thinkpad.)
| justinhj wrote:
| I think this is true. I'm sure there are practical reasons for
| a slow rollout, but this kind of exclusive rollout to flagship
| US stores will lead to a lot of coverage of people lining up
| get the device. It will generate worldwide demand for a product
| that many probably don't even know what they will do with it.
|
| Very reminiscent of the rollout of Facebook which had an
| exclusive, Ivy league only presence, that eventually expanded
| out to everyone and their grandparents.
|
| Another thing I just noticed in this release is how the device
| looks like ski goggles; an item already associated with
| 'coolness' and extreme sports but also wealth and exclusivity.
| FormerBandmate wrote:
| Abercrombie blew their brand up by doing that. In today's world
| that is an atrocious idea
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| I suspect that they don't expect high volumes so rather than
| giving the impression that the launch is a failure they turn it
| into an exclusive club product.
| georgespencer wrote:
| Supply chain scuttlebutt is that the display technology is so
| constrained[^1] that Apple expects to only _manufacture_
| 400,000 headsets next year.
|
| It's possible that this product will flop, but I can't see it
| being anything other than sold out everywhere for most of
| 2024. Heck, you can make a reasonable case for there only
| being 10k-30k SKUs in channel inventory at launch, and Apple
| has 275 retail locations which require multiple demo units in
| addition to launch stock.
|
| [^1]: https://www.ft.com/content/b6f06bde-17b0-4886-b465-b561
| 212c9..., https://www.ft.com/content/632b4ffa-3637-4972-a525-
| 0ddbcd50b.... Tl;dr: each device needs 2 displays (so 800k
| displays leads to 400k headsets), the displays are new and
| complex (which is why they account for 50% of the
| manufacturing cost of the entire device) which means it's
| expensive to ramp up production lines for suppliers (who are
| unsure of demand) _and_ production yields are low.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| It'll be by appointment so they can control the tap, say it
| is sold out, say there is a waiting list. Create a buzz.
|
| Cynically, a case in point is the display: it is so new and
| advanced that they have problems ramping production!
|
| Whether issues are real or not, I am sure that Apple's
| marketing team knows how to spin everything. They are
| famous for that and indeed one of the best.
| georgespencer wrote:
| > It'll be by appointment so they can control the tap,
| say it is sold out, say there is a waiting list. Create a
| buzz.
|
| For near enough the last decade, all iPhone launches have
| been appointment only in-store, and Apple Watch was
| appointment only in-store for the first 4 months of its
| life.
|
| > Cynically, a case in point is the display: it is so new
| and advanced that they have problems ramping production!
|
| Imagine that at the end of next year, Apple has sold
| 400,000 devices, and tells us that only supply
| constraints are preventing them from selling many more.
| Which is the more plausible explanation:
|
| 1. As with nearly all novel/complex technologies when
| manufactured at large scale, the combined costs of
| tooling, the complexity and uncertainty of new
| manufacturing techniques, and the low yields which
| inevitably follow, have created a supply constraint for
| Vision Pro.
|
| 2. In the face of weak demand for Vision Pro, Apple and
| its partners choose to collude in a lie to customers and
| shareholders alike, claiming that Vision Pro is supply
| constrained when really nobody wants to buy it, thus...
| achieving... erm... uh... something?
| BoppreH wrote:
| I'm very confused by Apple's strategy. As an owner of the
| original HTC Vive headset, its word-of-mouth power was off the
| charts. It was a blast at parties, and many of my friends bought
| their own $700+ devices after trying it.
|
| Here's what won them over:
|
| - Being able to try it themselves with little preparation ("put
| this on your head, tighten it here, and click these buttons on
| the controller"). You could even use it over glasses.
|
| - Games that you play by grabbing things with your hands. The
| heavy hitters are Beat Saber and Half-Life: Alyx, but Climbey and
| UltraWings also got fans, and all the combat games where you
| punch cartoons or reload guns realistically.
|
| (seriously, if you've never tried, the jump from mouse+keyboard
| to hand tracking is like going from arrow keys to mouse+keyboard)
|
| Meanwhile, here's what Apple seems to be doing:
|
| - Customized accessories, to the point that you need a face-scan
| and to send them your glasses prescriptions.
|
| - Eyetracking and gesture-only interactions. I haven't seen a
| single demo where somebody _picks a virtual object up_.
|
| How is that going to work? Do they expect to make up for all the
| lost word-of-mouth with marketing campaigns? Also, did they give
| up on VR games?
| zmmmmm wrote:
| it's a totally different model of generating demand. They don't
| need marketing, because they have a completely captive audience
| of loyal apple fans who will easily saturate the first year (or
| even two years) of supply for this product.
|
| They are following Palmer Luckey's "Make people want it first
| model". Being supply limited, traditional marketing would only
| generate demand they can't satisfy. What they actually have to
| do is make sure every person who gets one has the most perfect
| experience possible.
| soligern wrote:
| It's like getting a pair of glasses. They're customized to your
| eyes and fit to your face.
| ghaff wrote:
| One area of friction that hasn't been mentioned but is out of
| Apples control is that in some states like MA prescription
| eyewear requires a current, within one year, prescription.
| tudorw wrote:
| I don't think this designed to sell in numbers, it exists as a
| placeholder for them, in case m$ or Pico start drawing too much
| attention, the old 'what we have is better, you just can't have
| it yet' routine. I will be interested to see what they spend on
| content and how they approach webXR, I'm not sure a market for
| walled garden devices in 2024 will be there, hopefully not :)
| zinodaur wrote:
| I bet they need time to ramp up their manufacturing. In the
| meantime - they can either artificially restrict the purchase
| of these things (what they are doing now), or have scalpers
| camp outside the stores and resell for 2-3x what apple are
| selling them for.
|
| If they can actually deliver on their promises - they will
| fucking sweep the VR market. Current VR headsets blow chunks.
| If the meta quest cost 10$ - people would still not use it for
| normal things, because it unpleasant to interact with.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Hard disagree. Current headsets are perfectly fine for the
| well established use-cases like gaming and stereo/3D video.
| The problem is, as always, going to be shoehorning real
| features into a goofy form-factor. We've been down this
| avenue before with Hololens and it was very clear that
| enterprise customers aren't really interested in developing
| bespoke AR workflows. Even with perfect passthrough vision
| there wasn't any tangible benefit to the tech outside very
| narrow military applications (and who knows where _those_
| contracts went).
|
| So now we're here. If Apple delivers on their promise of a
| very nice Oculus Quest sorta thing with iPhone apps and
| AppleTV+, I can't imagine people using it more than their
| Oculus Quest, iPhone or AppleTV.
| charcircuit wrote:
| If the vision pro were free people wouldn't use it for normal
| things either because it is unpleasant compared to using a
| phone, monitor, macbook, tv.
| bee_rider wrote:
| I had a blast showing my Rift CV1 to friends, but only one
| person I showed it off to got a VR headset, and both mine and
| his seem to be gathering dust at the moment.
|
| It seems to me that Apple is very worried about their device
| getting slotted into the "fun expensive limited use toy" niche.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| It doesn't sound like a gaming play, rather a
| productivity/media consumption play.
|
| I really wish Meta or someone else would focus on fitness more.
| Augmented fitness (not normal gaming) seems to be an area ripe
| for viral adoption. Without any haptic feedback, VisionPro is
| less suitable than the Quest.
| post-it wrote:
| They're going for the same approach they always do. You don't
| need word-of-mouth if you have every product placement slot.
|
| People won't get hyped on the Vision Pro by their best friend,
| they'll get hyped on it by their favourite YouTuber.
| bstar77 wrote:
| Apple probably wants to tap into the "Apple Watch Edition"
| crowd that will spend absurd money for the exclusivity and not
| complain much.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| There was no "crowd". If there were, the $10K watch wouldn't
| have been cancelled after tte first generation
| nomel wrote:
| I saw exactly one person in the wild wearing one: a _store_
| manager at pizza chain. It was completely obsolete at that
| point.
| layer8 wrote:
| That "crowd" will buy this version instead:
| https://caviar.global/catalog/virtual-reality
| unreal37 wrote:
| It's not a gaming device. It's two tiny iPads that you can put
| right up to your eyes and use hand movements to control.
| [deleted]
| Teever wrote:
| Gaming is a pretty popular activity on the iPad.
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| Hmm. Are you aware that mobile gaming revenue is larger than
| console and PC and that the majority of mobile gaming revenue
| comes from iOS (iPad and iPhone)?
|
| https://www.businessofapps.com/data/mobile-games-revenue/
| Jarmsy wrote:
| All I've seen so far suggests they're almost entirely focused
| on virtual 2d _screens_ floating in 3d space, and not other
| virtual 3d objects at all.
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| Not true at all.
|
| https://developer.apple.com/visionos/
| wccrawford wrote:
| Why would you think that URL would prove them wrong, when
| the only image it has on _that page_ is of 2d screens
| floating in 3d space?
| dev_tty01 wrote:
| There are numerous quotes in the text describing the 3D
| API for creating and manipulating 3D content. For
| example:
|
| "Present 3D content, animations, and visual effects in
| your app with RealityKit, Apple's 3D rendering engine."
| threeseed wrote:
| They had many WWDC sessions covering 3D objects especially
| with the Unity integration [1] and their Reality Composer Pro
| [2] tool. Both were covered during the keynote. And if you
| look on Youtube there are countless videos of third party
| developers developing 3D apps.
|
| It's just that they are positioning the device as a spatial
| computer i.e. something you use to get real work done. And
| right now for 99% of people that involves 2D windows.
|
| [1] https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10088/
|
| [2] https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10083/
| jayd16 wrote:
| I think you're right to pick up on the fact that 99% of
| digital content out there is 2D and they're leaning into
| that. It's a known quantity and easier to market.
| btown wrote:
| Something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYxPO-bfbOk
| (https://www.immersionanalytics.com/) would absolutely be
| possible with Apple's support for 3D objects. I hope that
| Apple doesn't neglect the analytics/visualization use case
| for launch; it could be gamechanging for their go-to-market
| strategy, as it would find its way into many corporate
| budgets.
| nomel wrote:
| I take their point as a problem of control. Picking up
| objects with hand tracking is, in my experience, much less
| deterministic, and much less useful, compared to picking
| them up with a button and haptics.
| threeseed wrote:
| Everyone that has tried the Vision Pro has said the eye
| and hand tracking is flawless.
|
| Definitely agree with haptics which many have mentioned
| is an issue.
| dagmx wrote:
| They had 3D objects on showcase in the developer tools Press
| release
|
| https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/06/developer-tools-to-
| cr...
| cm2187 wrote:
| My experience of the same has been the opposite. Friends I
| showed it to telling me "interesting" then moving on and never
| mentioning it again. And I felt the same. It went to storage
| less than a month after I received it.
| dahwolf wrote:
| Same here. I organized a trip to a VR center for the entire
| team at work.
|
| Everybody had fun, but more like going to a theme park.
| Nobody ever talked about it again or bought one, just zero
| interest. And these are tech people.
| shipscode wrote:
| Having messed with VR/AR tech since the DK2, the Apple Store
| presence could be the killer app that VR/AR needs.
|
| The manual learning process of ordering special fit lenses,
| adjusting the headsets, etc would be a great fit with Apple's
| store model.
| smiley1437 wrote:
| Sure sounds like it's adding a lot of friction to the purchase
| phase
| beebeepka wrote:
| Philip Morris is, or at least used to, selling the electronic
| cigarettes the same way.
|
| This sort of exclusivity makes some people feel special. It's
| a viable tactic.
| catchnear4321 wrote:
| which removes even more from the usage phase. you've been
| taught how to use the device fitted for you.
|
| they're front-loading friction in an effort to minimize it.
| danpalmer wrote:
| I think the friction can come across to some customers as
| good service, and help launch a category.
|
| The Apple Watch was initially sold at fitting appointments in
| store, and I think that was important in establishing it as a
| normal thing to wear and even a fashionable thing to wear in
| some cases, and helped cement the product in the mainstream.
|
| Tailored suits is another case where there's a premium price,
| premium service, but a lot of friction. It's not always bad.
|
| They're also probably supply constrained enough that the
| friction doesn't matter for the first version or two.
| kibwen wrote:
| _> I think that was important in establishing it as a
| normal thing to wear_
|
| Apple did not need to normalize the wearing of watches.
| Watches have been luxury fashion items for hundreds of
| years.
| danpalmer wrote:
| Apple absolutely needed to normalise the idea that a
| PS300 black puck was Luxury Fashion. See what happened to
| Google Glass for when a company fails to make a wearable
| product fashionable, and we've been wearing expensive
| glasses for hundreds of years. Watch nerds still shun it
| today, although Apple has managed to break through as
| much as they needed to make it a success.
| user_named wrote:
| No, they didn't
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| They absolutely did. Smartwatches were mostly seen as
| tacky before the Apple Watch. That's part of why they
| chose a different form factor and partnered with luxury
| brands for bracelet. For Apple to make wearing them seems
| normal was not a given at all.
| user_named wrote:
| Absolutely did not. Only thing they needed to convince
| people of is accepting less than a days worth of battery
| life.
| evandale wrote:
| The Moto 360 was out before the Apple watch. I know that
| for a fact because I got one on the release date. They
| were pretty hard to find when they came out.
|
| Apple was late to the game with smartwatches and didn't
| do a single thing to convince people to wear them.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| > The Moto 360 was out before the Apple watch.
|
| And it was seen as a toy for geeks and software
| developers who think t-shirts are an acceptable office
| attire despite being the most watch-like of the
| smartwatches.
|
| I would never have gone to the office wearing a moto360.
| People would have given me funny looks all day. Meanwhile
| you can wear an Apple Watch with your suit and everyone
| finds that acceptable.
| evandale wrote:
| > And it was seen as a toy for geeks and software
| developers who think t-shirts are an acceptable office
| attire despite being the most watch-like of the
| smartwatches.
|
| Source please! That's not how I remember the release, I
| recall it was very well recieved and sold out everywhere
| with the battery life being the biggest complaint.
|
| > I would never have gone to the office wearing a
| moto360. People would have given me funny looks all day.
| Meanwhile you can wear an Apple Watch with your suit and
| everyone finds that acceptable.
|
| I doubt you'll find a source, this entire paragraph is
| you projecting your own insecurities onto everyone else.
| Your opinion is not the general consensus or a source for
| anything so find a reliable 3rd party to back you up that
| isn't a random blogpost by Joe nobody.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| The first reviews I found from versions circa 2014.
|
| https://www.cnet.com/reviews/motorola-moto-360-review/
|
| https://www.alphr.com/motorola/32669/motorola-
| moto-360-revie...
|
| Criticisms of how much the OS sucks
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2014/9/5/6108947/moto-360-review
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| > I doubt you'll find a source, this entire paragraph is
| you projecting your own insecurities onto everyone else.
|
| Sometimes I wonder if I live in the same world than some
| of the commenters here.
|
| Here is The Verge review of the Moto360: [https://www.the
| verge.com/2014/9/5/6108947/moto-360-review]. A few
| selected quotes by me: "It's designed to prove that
| smartwatches don't have to be ugly.", "It's not a gadget,
| it's a watch", "At 11.5mm, it's a little thick", "
| Everything before it was a screen on your wrist". And
| that's the Verge being incredibly nice with the 360.
| Truth is it was very much still seen as a tacky piece of
| technology bolted to your wrist.
|
| It took me two minutes to find by the way because this
| kind of reviews were literally everywhere in the years
| leading to the release of the Apple Watch.
| bengale wrote:
| I seem to recall the first-generation Apple Watch experience
| being like this.
| goosedragons wrote:
| Conversely the fact that you need special fit lenses and a
| store appointment means its going to be hard to test out and
| hard to buy. You're probably not going to be able to wander
| past the Apple store in the mall and take a quick peek in and
| play with the Vision Pro like you can with their other products
| like the iPad. Nor will testing your friend's necessarily be a
| good experience. Plus even in the U.S Apple Store's aren't that
| common requiring a multi-hour drive to get to in some places.
| catchnear4321 wrote:
| the price tag already made this a "not for everyone."
|
| for the enthusiastic, apple is going to make it as low-
| friction as possible.
|
| this is a slow game.
| r_hoods_ghost wrote:
| How on earth is forcing someone to go to a store, probably
| only in a few select locations far away from where you
| live, low friction?
| ajmurmann wrote:
| How sparse are Apple Stores where you live? I have three
| within very comfortable driving distance and I live in a
| mid-sized city's metro.
| BizarreByte wrote:
| There is one in the whole on Nova Scotia. Not everywhere
| in an American city.
| evandale wrote:
| You left out important context:
|
| > for the enthusiastic, apple is going to make it as low-
| friction as possible.
|
| Going to a store is not low friction for an enthusiast.
| We've already established that the price tag shuts out
| all but the enthusiast.
|
| Apple enthusiasts will do anything to buy Apple products.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| An Apple enthusiast not willing to go to the Apple Store?
| When I went to NYC, the Apple Store there was like nerd
| Mecca with people taking pictures in front of it.
| amelius wrote:
| > the fact that you need special fit lenses and a store
| appointment
|
| Sounds like a serious shortcoming if you can't share the
| device with friends and family.
| doctornoble wrote:
| You can. The Vision Pro supports a primary user that
| retains settings/user account/AppleID and a secondary user
| with gets a "guest" account that resets.
| chongli wrote:
| How does that work if everyone in your family requires
| different prescription lenses?
| manojlds wrote:
| Based on how these work on many existing VR headsets
| including Quest 2, these are just insets that you can
| just take out. Probably held magnetically as well.
| [deleted]
| Kerbonut wrote:
| Do you share your iPhone, iPad, MacBook Pro, AirPods or
| Apple Watch with friends and family? It's touted as a work
| machine first and foremost right? Do you share your work
| laptop with others? Apple exec logic I'm sure.
|
| I get what you're saying and it's hard to describe (and
| never really does it justice) the experience of this
| technology. It's something you have to experience yourself
| to understand.
| kibwen wrote:
| Regardless of Apple's marketing, for the vast majority of
| people this will be a media consumption device first and
| a media creation device second, just like the iPad. And
| you absolutely share your media consumption devices
| (television, game consoles, iPads) with your
| family/housemates.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| And in a lot of families, parents will buy each child an
| iPad or a cheaper tablet.
|
| But there will be enough people who will by the headset
| for them to sell all they can make in the first year.
| [deleted]
| chasing wrote:
| I share my PlayStation and AppleTV with friends and
| family. And, yeah, my kid regularly uses my iPad and
| family members definitely use one another's phones on
| occasion. Also the Vision Pro is expensive enough that
| not every family member will get one -- if there's one in
| the house it sure would be cool if everyone could use it.
| stevenwoo wrote:
| It sure sounds like anyone in a household can use it but
| if anyone has a different eyeglass corrective lens
| prescription (very likely unless everyone still has 20/20
| vision) from the primary user it's a very substandard
| experience.
| upon_drumhead wrote:
| They showed in the demo the switching lenses was easy as
| they are magnetic.
|
| Likely the upfront issues would be getting everyone their
| personalized lenses, but actually using seems like it
| would be easy.
| throwuwu wrote:
| They'd better sell a good storage solution for those
| lenses too otherwise they're going to get lost or mixed
| up easily
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| Apple already does laser engraving for products bought in
| the online store. For the price point of this thing, they
| can probably move engraving into the retail stores (not
| long ago, I bought a laser engraver for my hobby 3D
| printer for a few hundred bucks -- they're not expensive,
| certainly not by Apple Store standards).
|
| As for getting lost, Apple already has their AirTag
| technology. While I don't know if that's already in these
| lenses, it doesn't seem like it'd be difficult to add.
| chongli wrote:
| Even if they're magnetic and easy to swap, it sounds a
| LOT clunkier than just handing someone an iPad. People
| are going to lose the lenses all over the place.
|
| Heck, my dad loses his phone multiple times a week,
| necessitating a quick phone call to track it down. Are
| the lenses going to include built-in AirTags so people
| can locate them?
| scarface_74 wrote:
| So how do you propose you make a good experience for
| people who need prescription glasses?
| chongli wrote:
| I don't have a proposal. I'm skeptical of the entire
| market for this product. I'm taking a wait-and-see
| approach and I'm looking forward to reading one-year
| followups from early adopters.
|
| Heck, I'm even skeptical of the iPad. I own one and I use
| it so seldomly that I have to charge the thing up from 0
| every time I use it. But I recognize that a lot of people
| love them as consumption devices and a few as creation
| tools for some niche purposes, such as digital painting.
| bee_rider wrote:
| I suck at optics, and optics is a hard topic, so I say it
| will full humility: I'm always surprised that headset
| manufacturer can't correct for most of these vision
| issues in software.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| i don't think that is at all possible.
| bee_rider wrote:
| I think it is just a weird coincidence, but in this
| thread price and share-ability seem to be negatively
| correlated.
|
| Consoles, AppleTV, and iPads are at the lower end of the
| price range here, right? (Well, you can get an expensive
| iPad of course).
|
| Laptop are expensive but personal, phones... definitely
| personal, tend to be a little more expensive maybe?
|
| I dunno, it isn't a straight line correlation but I don't
| think the fact that the Vision Pro is expensive tells us
| much.
|
| In have a Rift CV1, I enjoyed showing it off to people
| and got some party-game type things (Keep Talking And
| Nobody Explodes is great for showing the device off). But
| I don't use it much solo, and I've shown it off to all my
| friends already, so I don't use it much. Don't get me
| wrong, it was fun, but it hasn't integrated into my daily
| life.
|
| If I were Apple--word of mouth is good, but I'd hope the
| Vision Pro becomes something that sort of gets embedded
| in people's lives to the point where they don't care to
| show it off (either because it becomes personal like a
| laptop, or because it becomes boring like a monitor).
| scarface_74 wrote:
| I agree. I'm much more likely to allow someone to borrow
| a $329 low end iPad than my $1300 iPhone 12 Pro Max.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Your comment is greyed out as if it was downvoted a bit,
| which seems quite bizarre to me.
|
| I think we're pretty clearly talking about a small number
| of contrary data points, here? I'm not trying to prove a
| general trend at least, just point out that we should at
| least double check the assumption that expensive implies
| shared.
|
| If someone is really invested in that idea I'd love to
| see an argument for it, rather than silent downvotes.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| And my sons bought their own PS4s because they wanted to
| play online games against each other at the same time and
| not have to share it.
| beebeepka wrote:
| Eh, you have a point. I am not exactly keen on sharing my
| Valve Index with people because hygiene is important to
| me. My wife can use it if she wants to.
|
| However, we're talking about a 3500 US dollar (without
| tax) device and a novelty. Of course people are going to
| share it if they can.
| [deleted]
| Shawnj2 wrote:
| It's pretty reasonable to share iPads and Macs between
| people, especially people who can't afford individual
| devices for everyone separately. If I bought a VR headset
| for $3500 anyone being able to use it would be extremely
| useful
| scarface_74 wrote:
| What's the overlap of people who can't afford multiple
| $330 low end iPads and people willing to spend $3500 on a
| headset?
| goosedragons wrote:
| They do sell more expensive iPads. Not exactly
| unreasonable to want to share a $1000+ nice iPad Pro
| among a few people rather than buy multiple bottom tier
| devices.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| I'm not letting any kids borrow a $1000+ iPad Pro.
| goosedragons wrote:
| Who said kids?
| usrusr wrote:
| The iPhone was basically sold by owners showing future
| owners the pinch zoom and making them try for themselves.
| ajmurmann wrote:
| I'm in the camp that sees ipads and phones as personal,
| non-shared devices, but you are hitting the nail on the
| head here.
| kyriakos wrote:
| Ipads are regularly shared in families and vision pro is
| more expensive than a top range tv which is shared in
| households. It's a hard sell if if can't be adapted to be
| used by multiple family members at its price point.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| Yes, it's indeed very common to share iPad with kids and
| to have a laptop shared amongst family members. That's
| why users exist and were such a hugely requested features
| of iPadOS (something Apple actually took ages to
| acknowledge because well, Apple).
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| It shouldn't have to be explained that dedicated video
| game hardware and personal mobile computers have very
| different use cases and sharing cultures around them.
|
| Do you share the use of your tv with friends and family?
| nomel wrote:
| As described during the keynote, they're magnetically held
| in place. You would need one set per user.
|
| As someone that wears glasses with VR, it's awful. The
| light gasket presses against them, gets tangled. The band
| presses against them. I can see why they didn't bother
| making it an option, since I often put my headset away
| because of the discomfort. This is why the quest pro has
| _optional_ light blockers, and why I never use mine.
| Leaving enough room for comfortably wearing glasses would
| make things huge.
| giobox wrote:
| > Plus even in the U.S Apple Store's aren't that common
|
| There are 270+ Apple stores in the US, I don't have the
| figures to hand but an overwhelming percentage of the
| country's actual population live within an hour of an Apple
| store. They are common, frankly.
|
| I'm not defending the decision to require a store visit here,
| but lets not paint a picture of Apple store availability that
| doesn't exist. The number of people with disposable income in
| the US to purchase a 3500 dollar headset _and_ actually want
| to buy one who aren 't living under an hour from an Apple
| store is likely a very small list.
| bombcar wrote:
| That's about one apple store for every twenty Walmarts.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| I'm not going to drive out of my way to pick up some
| Rustler jeans.
|
| But I will to buy electronic gear or even to get my right
| AirPod replaced that I dropped in the water when I was on
| a boat in Cabos...
| spdif899 wrote:
| Yeah or in my case the apple store becomes a part of a
| trip, there's not one near my home but there is one near
| the beach house I rented this year, so when I wanted a
| better fitting waterproof watch band I just baked a trip
| to that store into my trip itinerary.
|
| If I were in the target market for the vision pro I would
| totally schedule an appointment and drive a couple of
| hours to get a curated experience and feel confident I'd
| come home with the right combination of lenses and
| everything.
| WheatMillington wrote:
| My nearest apple store is 3 hours away.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| And there are plenty of people (including my 80 year old
| parents) who drive 3 hours from their small town in South
| Georgia to the nearest bigger city to buy products that
| they want to be able to see instead of our used online.
|
| In my dads case, music gear
|
| I even know people who would drive from the even smaller
| places than where my parents live who would drive to my
| home town to go the mall, movies and Olive Garden.
| dagmx wrote:
| The big win I think will be the App Store rather than just the
| Apple Store. the App Store will provide reducing the need to
| take the headset off to use general apps.
|
| When you use an oculus, if you need to do something like reply
| to a text, check an email or reply to someone on social media,
| you have to take off your headset or kill your current task and
| switch to virtual desktop.
|
| Having all your iOS apps on it, and being able to multitask
| means people won't be taking off their headset as often and
| they'll not have to consider dedicated VR time.
|
| To me, that's the biggest software differentiator
| mathgeek wrote:
| > and they'll not have to consider dedicated VR time
|
| The reported battery life on the Vision Pro is still going to
| require that you have dedicated "goggles on" time for the
| foreseeable future.
| dagmx wrote:
| the battery has a usb-c port in photos that implies you can
| charge it while using it.
| Macha wrote:
| So do my headphones, but I can't charge them in use
| either.
| mjamesaustin wrote:
| The first thing Apple says about battery life is "all day
| while plugged in". The device is intended to be used as
| long as desired while plugged in, just like a laptop.
| hhh wrote:
| If you watch the keynote there's direct discussion of a
| power cable for the headset that is meant for constant
| power.
| drewbeck wrote:
| This has been mostly missed by reviewers and pundits.
| They've presented a primarily sitting/static experience;
| the battery is for when you need to walk around between
| sedentary moments. In that context 2 hrs is going to be
| (mostly) plenty
| smoldesu wrote:
| Having replied to a text, checked my emails and responded to
| people on HN all from my first-gen Oculus Quest, I'm not
| really sure what you're talking about here. Do you not find a
| web browser sufficient for those tasks? Is there something
| inherent to the Quest ecosystem that should be stopping me
| here?
| dagmx wrote:
| 1. Many people prefer apps over browser experiences.
|
| 2. Many commonly used apps don't have a browser experiences
| with equivalent features. Take Instagram for example.
|
| 3. With the Quest , you can't really multitask, except for
| the Quest Pro.
|
| The Quest 1-3 are equivalent to game consoles in many ways.
| I can use a web browser on my PS4. It doesn't mean it's a
| full productivity system with multitasking.
| kibwen wrote:
| _> The big win I think will be the App Store rather than just
| the Apple Store_
|
| It won't be using the app store, though. It's using a brand-
| new store, built from scratch. No iOS apps will be there
| unless the authors rewrite them to be compatible with
| visionOS.
| dagmx wrote:
| You're incorrect. It runs iOS and iPadOS apps out of the
| box. You can even see some if you download the simulator.
|
| https://developer.apple.com/wwdc23/10090
| samstave wrote:
| >* _Software differentiator*_
|
| -
|
| The reasons I would not like to have one of these devices ;
|
| * Apple's closed moat
|
| * App store lock-in
|
| * 'DLC' model whereby not a single thing you do on this
| $3,500 device will be free - and no matter what app you
| choose, Apple takes 30% of whatever revenue stream that app
| wants...
|
| * The piss-poor apple fix-service market, and their shitty
| designs of the iphone which break so fn easily that VCs (YC+)
| have had to invest in cottage industry of phone repairs
|
| I've had iphones since the first day of launch... and while I
| prefer them over android, I still hate ios ecosystem.
|
| The infra-mechanics of it are awesome, but compared to the
| smarmy and condescending greedy Apple, i still hate ios.
| jwells89 wrote:
| While I sympathize with feeling disappointed in having to
| pay for apps for use with such an expensive headset, I
| believe that its price would have severely restricted the
| number of free apps available for it in the first place.
| Developers are going to want to recuperate their
| investment, and that'd remain true even if it were possible
| to install whatever one pleased on it.
|
| It's technically possible to develop on the simulator
| alone, but given that the simulator is confined to a 2D
| window on a computer screen I can't imagine that apps
| developed in this manner would be able to stand up to
| competition developed without such limitations.
| samstave wrote:
| Yeah, I understand both sides of the Coin. I appreciate
| your response, and it deepens my concern is that there
| will be an entirely new DLC-ish content model whereby you
| have one price for an ios app - and then a different
| price for the "Apple Headset AR * _EXPERIENCE*_ " version
| of all the apps - and certain features will be lock-outs
| to non AR-paying-premium customers...
|
| Its just FN financially-dystopian
|
| ---
|
| @scarface_74 ;
|
| "* _May you please ELI5 expand on your comment - as I am
| OOTL and would like to understand what you mean,
| precisely. (because I want to learn, kthxbai)*_ "
|
| /as-i-am-posting-too-fast....
| dndn1 wrote:
| Surprisingly the GP didn't include price of the device as
| a reason, but the 30% Apple cut/likely uplift in price
| that developers need to charge to recuperate development
| costs - which are far more significant than developer
| hardware costs.
|
| A non-Apple device without the moat would be better. GP
| also didn't ask for free apps.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Yes that must be why there is a thriving profitable
| market for apps on Android that don't go through the Play
| Store.
|
| Almost every non game app on the iPhone/iPad of note
| require a subscription and most outside of the App Store.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| > The reasons I would not like to have one of these devices
| ;
|
| I'm sure there are a number of people here who will agree
| with you.
|
| On the other hand, the fact that Apple now has a $3
| trillion-with-a-"t" market cap indicates that most people
| do not care about any of these issues. Not in the
| slightest.
| pjmlp wrote:
| I give it a couple of years.
| user_named wrote:
| Buying the product can't be the product's killer app.
| justapassenger wrote:
| Or, it means that tech is still not ready for a mainstream
| adoption. You should take it out of the box and it should just
| work.
|
| I cannot imagine people being excited that they need to go
| physical store and deal with a staff there to get their fancy
| new toy.
| nagisa wrote:
| There's a non-trivial portion of population that is familiar
| with the concept of having products fit to them personally:
| made-to-order uniforms, glasses, other sorts of assistive
| products.
|
| I find it surprising that this is less common than it was in
| the past, and that people are more willing to put up with
| something that's a subpar fit for them. One tech example that
| would benefit from custom fit are in-ear headphones. It would
| make sure that product is a perfect fit for every customer
| every time, rather than roughly every single customer having
| to put up with a suboptimal fit and poor comfort.
| staunton wrote:
| Fitting and customizing things takes time and is expensive.
| That fully explains the trend. Before industrialized mass
| production, making an item by hand and to fit someone's
| specific needs was only slightly more effort than to make
| some "average" fit item.
| EwanToo wrote:
| Do you not remember the queues outside Apple stores for early
| iPhones?
|
| https://youtu.be/bWgd5crvB0U
| justapassenger wrote:
| Do you not remember it's 2023 and online retail is at very
| different place?
| peddling-brink wrote:
| Have you been to an Apple Store recently? It's plenty easy to
| get their products online, but the stores are consistently
| packed regardless.
| justapassenger wrote:
| I don't think people who pack Apple stores are target
| audience. From my experience they're either not a target
| audience (older, non tech savvy) or lack funds (teenagers).
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| Can we please get rid of the stereotype that older people
| aren't "tech savvy"?
|
| Older people today have been using computers since they
| were in their teens or twenties. Conversely, I know a
| 20-something woman who can't understand why her iMessages
| quit working when she switched to an Android phone,
| despite explaining it to her multiple times.
|
| As you note, they also have more money.
| [deleted]
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| It would probably consume the entire applestore floorspace with
| nonbuying looky loos and their product damaging children
| bagels wrote:
| Damaging children in what way?
| bobthepanda wrote:
| I think they mean children running around damaging the
| store and its products.
|
| That being said, it's not like children aren't already in
| Apple stores and they don't seem to be damaging a
| substantial amount of phones and whatnot.
| lelandfe wrote:
| _Product-damaging_ children, but I like your read better.
| Though it raises which product of the looky loos is
| damaging kids.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| I imagine the more likely scenario is kids damaging other
| things with the headset on because they don't see where
| they are.
|
| There were a lot of videos in the 2000s of Wiimotes
| getting swung into TVs.
| sevensevennine wrote:
| There used to be a Microsoft store in the big mall near me.
| It turned into a babysitting service for parents who dropped
| their kids off to play with the Xbox.
| kcplate wrote:
| So the killer app for a $3.5k product is an app that helps you
| buy other expensive products from the same company?
|
| Maybe I misunderstood, but if not count me skeptical.
| macintux wrote:
| Not the app, the retail presence. The Apple Stores have
| proved enormously valuable when Apple enters a new hardware
| product category.
| kcplate wrote:
| I can understand this being a differentiator to other AR/VR
| products, but that is not exactly what the comment I
| replied to said, they said the "killer app" was the ability
| to buy it at an Apple Store. Short of a few folks with too
| much extra cash and curiosity, just being able to try it
| before you buy isn't what I would refer to as a _killer
| app_. The "killer app" is what gets the main market
| populace to the store to even consider it.
| [deleted]
| scarface_74 wrote:
| The entire purpose of the Apple Stores were to be a showcase
| where Apple controlled the narrative.
|
| It has been one of Apple's competitive advantages since 2001.
|
| How many people are going to spend $3500 on a device that by
| definition you have to try on in person to see if you want
| it?
| danpalmer wrote:
| I'm squarely in the target market for the Meta Quest, but the
| fact I have no way of trying one before I buy, even just for
| a few minutes, is my main blocker for getting one.
|
| This is particularly important for a) new product categories
| where customers aren't yet sure they want/need it, b)
| products that "fit", or don't, and c) expensive entertainment
| products. These headsets are all three, so it's really
| important.
|
| Apple's retail presence could solve this.
| dharmab wrote:
| Meta has a free 30 day return policy
| danpalmer wrote:
| That's typical for most products like that but it doesn't
| solve the problem. The issue is only partly "will I like
| it" or "will it fit me", for which a free return policy
| can help (but not fully solve), but a lot of the issue is
| "why would I want this". If you walk past one in a shop
| and can give it a go you're much more likely to overcome
| that than spending PS300 on one and having to go through
| the return process.
|
| Aside, I hear a lot more about free returns from people
| in the US. In the UK they are seemingly near-universal,
| but there is significantly less willingness to return
| outside of specific categories such as clothing. I have a
| little experience working in a retailer (as a software
| engineer), and US return rates were far higher than UK/EU
| return rates, and this was apparently considered typical.
| hyperthesis wrote:
| > unclear use cases ... a small group of enthusiasts
|
| Apple's image announcement is just for future positioning: this
| really is a "Pro" device, for specific market segments and use-
| cases - _niche_. It 's how apple won desktop publishing years
| ago.
|
| Segment 1: creative professionals keep buying more and bigger
| screens. Vision Pro (VP) can eat that budget, and provide as many
| displays as you want. (The technology appeal is that a display
| must be high resolution everywhere - but VP only needs to be hi-
| res where you're looking, giving arbitrarily large "displays").
| Apple carefully and specifically claims text is crisp. The
| engineering question is if Apple has actually done this: _is it_
| as good as a physical display? (or close enough)
|
| Segment 2: creative professionals who make 3D objects: industrial
| designers, architects (but not yet engineers - they have
| different priorities). Also directors: cgi sets and set
| extensions have long been standard, and directors (and production
| designers etc) use an ipad to "see" the fully dressed cgi set,
| overlaid on the practical set. This is a better version of that.
| I can see James Cameron and Denis Villeneuve ordering any many as
| they can use - if it actually help. (aside: maybe for actors in
| rehearsal, but interferes with mocap).
|
| Creative professional collaborate, hence Apple's huge efforts on
| the eyes being visible. A real question is will it be enough, for
| effective and natural communication, in a real-worlx work-flow
| situation? Will Jim be able to ordsr people around, or will he
| have to rip it off?
|
| By announcing it after years and years of work, Apple shows they
| think they have enough of it, for it to be worthwhile for some
| people.
|
| Provided they can get a genuine foothold, in actually making
| people more productive (real ROI, not jus enthusiast prosumers),
| then this has endless upside. _If_ they can, users, usages and
| sales will grow fantastically for decades.... _if_
| Animats wrote:
| It's too clunky to be more than a niche product, like everybody
| else's VR headsets. John Carmack, after he quit Oculus, said this
| wasn't going to work as a product until the size got down to swim
| goggle size, and wouldn't go mass market until the devices
| reached eyeglass size and weight.
|
| What seemed more likely from Apple was the form factor of the
| Vuzix Ultralight, which looks like ordinary glasses. AR-only,
| offering access to a smartphone functionality with hands free.
| That's a mass market product. Several companies showed such
| things at CES.
|
| What Apple is demoing is nicely engineered, but has every bell
| and whistle known to VR headgear. It shows in the weight, bulk,
| price, and battery life. It seems to have roughly the same market
| as the Microsoft HoloLens, which is an nice piece of expensive
| equipment sold to corporate buyers.
|
| Meta and Microsoft have something in this space, so Apple had to
| have one too, in case somebody made this niche grow.
| tsunamifury wrote:
| They did the same with Apple Watch. This isn't new.
| sgarman wrote:
| Actually commented on in the article for people reading it.
| dawnerd wrote:
| Makes sense. Weeds out people unsure if they'll like it and
| returning it. Might even rule out the YouTubers that but and
| return after they make a video.
| gibbitz wrote:
| Even if they came to my house to fit me with it I wouldn't buy
| it. What problem is it solving for someone other than Apple?
| We've been seeing this AR pipe-dream for 10+ years and it hasn't
| caught on. Not because the technology was bad, but because people
| just don't want it.
|
| What Apple is missing here is that people wanted the iPhone (a
| phone with an iPod built in) for years before it was even
| officially announced as under development. It succeeded because
| the market invented it, not because Apple are geniuses who showed
| us we needed it.
| throw47474777j wrote:
| > Not because the technology was bad, but because people just
| don't want it.
|
| It's hard to see how anyone who has been following the
| technology could make this claim.
| kibwen wrote:
| People want it, but not in this form factor. Like I've been
| saying regarding Oculus' products for years: VR/AR isn't a
| bad idea, but nobody wants to strap a set of heavy, sweaty
| ski goggles to their face for eight hours a day. Just because
| the newest models are lighter/more comfortable than the old
| models doesn't mean they're anywhere near acceptable. I'll be
| passing on these until they're the size and weight of
| ordinary glasses.
| throw47474777j wrote:
| Comparing Oculus's products of years ago with Vision Pro
| makes no sense.
| kibwen wrote:
| I have been saying it for years, but it remains true of
| Oculus' modern products, and it remains true of the VP.
| In ten years it may be different, but today is not ten
| years from now.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| people who have demoed the vision pro claim the
| ventilation in the headset solves the 'sweaty' problem.
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| I'll go much further than that: nobody wants to wear ANY
| pair of glasses.
|
| Some people do because the benefit is literally regaining
| one of your senses, but even if AR / VR glasses one day
| become like normal glasses, it will be a niche product.
|
| Nobody's wearing glasses just to get notifications and
| gimmicks like this. Ever.
|
| The only moment where AR / VR can maybe become mainstream
| is when we can send signal straight to the brain to
| generate images (disregarding that there's no way people
| will be ok with other people controlling their brain).
| qqtt wrote:
| Can you expand on this comment? What have you seen in the AR
| market that leads you to believe the comment you are
| responding to is not accurate?
|
| From many observers, we have seen many AR/VR devices fail
| over the years. Some spectacularly (like Snap Spectacles),
| and some seem to be just throwing money into a furnace (like
| Oculus, which hasn't failed, but even with millions of
| devices sold doesn't seem to be reaching product market fit
| for anything outside of niche gaming and fitness).
|
| Yes, the Vision Pro is a different device, but there are
| orthogonal attempts at this kind of screen sharing experience
| which also have very niche markets, like Sightful's Spacetop
| laptop.
|
| I get that the Vision Pro has some product differentiation,
| such as the App Store, the developer ecosystem (debatable at
| this point compared to other AR products), and so on - but
| what exactly are you seeing the market today that will drive
| this demand for Vision Pro? Where is the evidence that
| customers want this technology?
| zmmmmm wrote:
| Objectively, I think it's reasonable to say the technology
| was bad compared to what is/will be available in the next
| 12 months. There are actual material technology
| breakthroughs that really do fundamentally alter the
| equation (primarily: micro-OLED displays, significantly
| faster mobile processors and distortion-free pancake
| optics).
|
| The original phrasing is ambiguous as to whether its
| acknowledging the tech was bad or not. But it doesn't seem
| reasonable to conclude that people don't want something
| until they can experience an implementation of it that
| isn't "bad".
| CrampusDestrus wrote:
| AR is a wet dream fostered by decades of science fiction.
| Please don't kid everyone with this
| ip26 wrote:
| AR exists commercially today in the armed forces. Where do
| you think sci-fi got it from?
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| I agree with you.
|
| I may be an old man, but what I want is the opposite of
| immersive technology. Put a computer on my face? Are you
| kidding? The one in my pocket already feels increasingly
| parasitic.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Nah, you're not an old man or anything like that. This is
| just the mainstream present technological scepticism. At some
| point marvelous technology became so ubiquitous we became
| blase about it.
|
| Cynicism, pessimism, and affected jadedness have always been
| the way people have attempted to sound cool. Nothing new
| about that part.
|
| Ultimately, the question is whether your path brings you joy.
| nocontextpls wrote:
| [dead]
| whimsicalism wrote:
| You're downvoted but I agree with you - tech has a massive
| gap between stated and revealed preferences.
| beanjuice wrote:
| In a converse way, what could be more freeing to our living
| spaces than confining our access to technology to such a
| secluded and particular space?
| georgespencer wrote:
| > Not because the technology was bad, but because people just
| don't want it.
|
| Have you ever used an AR/VR headset for something you generally
| enjoy (a game, a movie, Google Maps, whatever)?
|
| I ask because my own experience (and the consensus of my
| network and the critics I read) is that devices like Oculus and
| the Vive Pro are extraordinarily compelling but overall held
| back by immature technology. Base stations. Wires. Visible
| pixels. Low quality video pass through. Stupid controllers you
| have to hold in your hands.
|
| People see the potential and flashes of what might be, but it's
| impossible to get beyond the awful user experience.
|
| > What Apple is missing here is that people wanted the iPhone
| (a phone with an iPod built in) for years before it was even
| officially announced as under development.
|
| Two thoughts on this:
|
| 1) It seems to undermine your point that iPhone launched in
| 2007 and yet through 2011 failed to come close to outselling
| iPod in terms of units.
|
| 2) The device you are describing -- "a phone with an iPod built
| in", before the iPhone -- actually did exist. The Motorola ROKR
| E1, or the "iTunes Phone": it was unveiled in 2005 on stage by
| Steve Jobs. Motorola did the phone stuff, and Apple did the
| iPod bit.
|
| It was a dismal failure and was discontinued after roughly a
| year on the market.
|
| > It succeeded because the market invented it, not because
| Apple are geniuses who showed us we needed it.
|
| What do you mean by "invented"? Because literally two years
| before the iPhone launched, the market "invented" a phone with
| a built-in iPod, manufactured by the leading cell phone
| manufacturer of the day, in collaboration with Apple, and it
| failed miserably. Did the market invent that phone?
|
| It's fair to say that Apple is not the first entrant to most
| market it contributes to, and it's fair to say that they are
| rarely the progenitors of the technologies their devices rely
| upon.
|
| What Apple is very good at is deeply understanding when new
| technologies can be combined or honed to bring them over a
| threshold of resonance with consumers which drives widespread
| adoption. It is not enough to simply say "ship a phone with a
| touch screen' --- folks were doing that for years before iPhone
| launched. Instead it's about understanding the interplay of
| latency, brightness, PPI, plural point awareness, manufacturing
| yields, component costs, and making tradeoffs which pursue a
| vision which people buy into.
|
| That's why when you said "a phone with an iPod built in" you
| could have been referring to both iPhone _and_ the ROKR, but
| the two devices could not be more different: ROKR had a fiddly
| microSD card for storage. Crummy slow processor and user
| interface. Stupid tiny keyboard for typing on. WAP internet.
| Wired transfer speeds slower than high speed USB. Slow java
| apps. A low resolution TFT LCD display. Only 11 megabytes of
| onboard memory.
| mberning wrote:
| I think they are building all this on the hope that they can
| convince tech addicted kids to strap this stupid ass thing on
| for many hours per day. I think "on the person" computing
| devices are reaching their "peak tobacco" moment. Every day
| more and more people realize how bad it is for your mental and
| physical health and decide to unplug more and more.
| wombat-man wrote:
| Uh, this seems a lot better than the other AR things to me. I'm
| intrigued but will probably sit out the first version.
| juve1996 wrote:
| It's a better iteration but doesn't solve the core problems
| of VR/AR.
| [deleted]
| 01100011 wrote:
| AR feels like 3D TV. Mfgs want it badly so they have a 'next
| big thing' to sell. Otherwise they risk having their premium
| product line turn into a boring commodity.
|
| I'm more excited for something like Humane's laser projection
| system or a less-intrusive, deep-learning driven assistant
| which uses voice and tactile feedback.
| PUSH_AX wrote:
| No, objectively the technology and hardware especially are bad.
| It's an immature market and the high barriers to entry hinder
| the progress needed for the market to mature.
|
| It won't get better without big drives in adoption, adoption
| won't happen without big improvements to.. everything. Catch 22
| x86x87 wrote:
| this Vision Pro saga has Google Glass vibes in. Let's see what
| happens.
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