[HN Gopher] The ARM powered ThinkPad x13s, as a developer
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The ARM powered ThinkPad x13s, as a developer
Author : ingve
Score : 102 points
Date : 2023-07-08 09:34 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.dev-eloper.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.dev-eloper.com)
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Will these things boot to Linux?
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Linux 6.0 and higher supposedly support the device. The system
| boots using EFI so as long as you can get a compatible kernel
| and the right firmware, it should work.
|
| Based on this:
| https://blog.rymcg.tech/blog/linux/thinkpad-x13s/ GPU support
| seems to have issues, which is a shame. That was written a few
| months ago, though.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Yeah, tough. I will wait to see if somebody more explicitly
| Linux-friendly makes a good workstation class ARM (or better,
| RISC-V even) laptop, because I've had nothing but problems
| with my Thinkpad Z13 Gen 1 Radeon/Ryzen and Lenovo is in my
| bad books.
|
| I had a M2 MBP issued for work by my previous job and it
| really was excellent; performance and battery life. But I'd
| have a hard time giving up Linux, and I'd worry about
| installation of Linux on hardware like that always being
| second-class.
| tracker1 wrote:
| For me, don't mind mac so much as do wish I could stick to
| the linux/windows keyboard bindings I'm used to. Rosetta2
| and docker have come a long way since i got my m1 as well.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| Can you use WSL2?
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| There's two groups wanting Linux: One wants access to Linux
| tooling and will almost certainly have a good experience with
| WSL/2. The other group wants to not run Windows, so WSL in
| any form is mostly useless.
| wyldfire wrote:
| > Chrome is slow and frustrating to use, with delayed animations
| and noticeable input lag, it's such a frustration that I entirely
| gave up on Chrome in favor of Edge which runs natively
|
| I use native Chromium on my Windows-on-ARM laptop (a couple of
| generations older than the one reviewed). It runs really well and
| the only drawback is missing DRM stuff so some videos won't play.
| YouTube almost always works, but most other non-youtube videos
| don't. For those I can fall back to Edge. I'm looking forward to
| Google releasing a native build of Chrome.
| kamma4434 wrote:
| If the author works with Kotlin, and for that price tag.... Get a
| mac!
| csdvrx wrote:
| Some of us (me included) just refuse to use a Mac.
|
| If I couldn't find a good Thinkpad, I would get a Surface.
| soulbadguy wrote:
| May i ask why ? I don't use Macs because my day to day
| requires X86 and linux. But pounds for pounds if someone
| doesn't mind MacOs. The new Mx series of macs is just a
| better value than most high-end laptop theses days
| shortrounddev2 wrote:
| I hate Apple, its products, and its ecosystem. The
| developer tools suck and macOS provides no advantage over
| windows other than an annoying user interface (if you're
| into that sort of thing)
| csdvrx wrote:
| It might be controversial, but I agree. The battery life
| can smooth out the issues for some people, but I have a
| plug everywhere I need.
| tracker1 wrote:
| I don't think the UI is annoying so much as different
| from what you may be used to. For me the annoyance is a
| few different key bindings. I like some parts of Windows,
| Linux (Gnome, KDE) and Mac... I have my Budgie desktop
| setup with a mix of the three.
| dantaro wrote:
| Hey there, author here, for me personally it's about the
| windowing and file explorer. I spent 6 months trying to get
| used to it at a job, and even bought a M1 Macbook Pro last
| year to try, but I just couldn't find any combination of
| plugins and programs that made it feel right. I know, it's
| not a great reason, and I have no hate for anyone who yums
| my yuck, but at the end of the day it's what stops me from
| using MacOS.
| rsynnott wrote:
| > I know, it's not a great reason,
|
| Seems like a fairly valid reason. I used Windows for the
| first time since early XP recently (in a VM; wanted to
| check that an interview question was doable in it without
| undue pain). I was just astonished at how bad it felt,
| and couldn't wait to shut down the VM. It's unsurprising
| that others have the same thing in the other direction.
| csdvrx wrote:
| > I just couldn't find any combination of plugins and
| programs that made it feel right.
|
| This: I recently moved to Linux. I was happy on Windows,
| because with the right combination of plugins and
| programs it felt just right + I could get everything I
| wanted hardware-wise.
|
| Last time I checked, this is not possible on Mac. You get
| a good battery life, but I don't care about that - I'd
| rather have a Zen3 AMD but I'm happy with my current
| laptop.
|
| With Linux, I don't have to fight my OS to get everything
| the way I want it to be, I can get a nice 4k OLED
| touchscreen on my Laptop with an internal LTE/5G module
| so I don't have to carry a phone just for getting online,
| etc.
|
| BTW I use arch (lol) and I think I'll stay - mostly
| thanks to Arch because before that I didn't like Linux
| due to Ubuntu questionable choices that made me prefer
| Windows before.
| soulbadguy wrote:
| > I know, it's not a great reason
|
| I think it's perfectly valid reason. At the end of the
| day a laptop is a tool, and your experience using the
| tool trumps any intrisic quality of said tool.
|
| I can relate, the main reason i do not use Mac's as
| personal device ( i have had some issue to me in my
| professional life) is MacOS. It always existed in a sort
| of middle ground that doesn't suits my needs : Doesn't
| have the broad compatibility with windows (in my case
| gaming, CPU/GPU and tools like intel vtune) and it's a
| unix, but close to enough to linux where most of
| professional work revolves around (lack of
| virtualization, not elf format support, native toolings
| are different etc... etc...)
|
| The hardware is amazing, the price is great, but the
| software is just not for me.
|
| And it's sucks, because the landscape of high-end windows
| laptop is just plain embarrassing. I am currently driving
| a surface pro 9 : Garbage battery life, runs hot on
| anything but web browsing and worst of the all the screen
| (120 Hz minds you) have HORRIBLE ghosting.
|
| The only saving grace of windows laptops right now is
| that if one is patient there are some sweet sweet
| discount deals to be had.
| csdvrx wrote:
| BTW you said " I don't have the 5G enabled version as it
| wasn't available when I bought mine, which I do regret,
| but if it's even half as good as it is on the SPX then
| it'll be totally fine. "
|
| If you want to help to make 5G work, get in touch. I'd
| need to know if you have internal WWAN antennas- if not,
| you can add them. It's just about installing a M2 module.
| At the same time, you can replace the current 512G NVMe
| by a 2T like from Sabrent or WD SN730 (though the latter
| has some firmware issues when using ZFS due to the power
| states)
| hospitalJail wrote:
| >The new Mx series of macs is just a better value than most
| high-end laptop theses days
|
| ?
|
| I just recently bought a laptop and when I was comparing
| benchmarks, I didn't see Apple anywhere near the top of the
| list for CPU single or multithreaded. Not that I remotely
| care about CPU speeds, my number 1 focus was VRAM. Made it
| an easy decision since you basically pick something with
| Nvidia and high VRAM.
| tracker1 wrote:
| This is ARM. The cpu isn't the only thing. Memory and
| disk io are also very good. Also portable/laptop and
| desktop aren't the same. Mx also has good accelerators
| for x86 and encoding tasks, so it will depend on what you
| do.
|
| Next gen AMD mobile is also looking very good. AMD 7000
| series mobile is really nice, but battery life isn't
| quite there compared to Apple.
| soulbadguy wrote:
| > I didn't see Apple anywhere near the top of the list
| for CPU single or multithreaded
|
| Probably wasn't normalized as perf per watt.
| hospitalJail wrote:
| >Probably wasn't normalized as perf per watt.
|
| Of course, that is a marketing metric, not something to
| genuinely care.
| kamma4434 wrote:
| I used to as well. But the M series just blows away every
| laptop - every Pc - I've ever had in the last 30 years... at
| some point it is an ideological proposition.
| csdvrx wrote:
| My position is everything but ideological: I will consider
| a Mac as soon as 1) the hardware offers an OLED touchscreen
| and internal LTE (everything else is secondary, with DDR5
| I've even relaxed my requirements for actual ECC) 2) Linux
| can run as well as it does on my Thinkpad or Surface.
|
| Until then, I refuse to use a Mac, because I don't like the
| OS or the limited hardware choice.
| tracker1 wrote:
| I'm not big on touch myself. As for lte, usually just
| tether to my phone if needed, then I don't have to worry
| about after lte, etc.
| csdvrx wrote:
| To be fair, I enjoy the internal LTE/5G way more than the
| screen: with it, I don't have to carry a phone!
| rollcat wrote:
| I'm here with you. I just refuse to use Windows, but I do
| recognize and empathise with people who feel this way about
| Mac or Linux. I would rather use something because I love it,
| rather than not use it because I hate it; but it's totally
| normal to find something off-putting.
| hospitalJail wrote:
| Its 2023 and I still don't understand the point of CPU speeds,
| even as a dev doing both single and multithreading. AI is
| continuing to put priority on GPUs.
|
| In the worst case, I wait an extra fraction of a second with a
| bad CPU.
|
| With a bad GPU, you are basically excluded from the latest
| technology.
|
| I'm sure ARM really wants to advertise that CPU is relevant, but
| it continues to be nearly irrelevant when you buy something a
| laptop with a dedicated GPU. (Its good enough)
| oneplane wrote:
| I suppose it depends on what performance bracket you are
| targeting. Scripting and interpreted languages, JIT next and VM
| after that (i.e. JVM, CLR), native code after that and
| optimised low-level code after that would all have very
| different reactions to 'good CPU' vs. 'bad CPU'.
|
| A 'slow' process (+-10s) taking 1 second longer won't seem that
| much slower, but a fast process (+-100ms) taking ten times as
| long does definitely become problematic.
|
| As for AI, it's mostly irrelevant what your local machines
| does, unless you are an end-user (i.e. you are running a model
| from a vendor on a local accelerator for local processing
| instead of remote processing). Development happens on remote
| farms and on-line usage also happens on remote farms.
| hospitalJail wrote:
| I need to do everything locally. Air gapped computer with
| confidential stuff.
| oneplane wrote:
| I that case your situation is likely irrelevant for the
| masses. It also still matters what performance bracket
| you're targeting.
| hospitalJail wrote:
| Maybe.
|
| I can picture wanting to do nsfw stuff locally...
|
| But also this is a fortune 100 company that has the
| airgapped computer with the confidential stuff. Its big
| bucks.
| imtringued wrote:
| Try encoding video in real time or NP hard optimization
| problems (e.g. generating bitstreams for FPGAs) instead of
| running something as trivial as a database and a Webserver.
| LoganDark wrote:
| I'm sitting here with "only" 12GB of VRAM and I can't train
| even the bigger RWKV models, and that's a freaking RNN, it's
| not even a transformer! And that's highly disappointing for
| someone who's been working as a contributor to one of the
| inference libraries, because the fruits of my labor aren't even
| going to benefit me that much. Bleh~
|
| I (somewhat) lie, all my experience working on rwkv.cpp does
| gain me knowledge and also contribute to the community. I'm
| just sort of sad that I don't have enough VRAM to finetune a
| bigger model to fit something like a chat format, or learn a
| certain vocabulary or whatever.
| rsynnott wrote:
| After some years of a 15" 2016 MacBook Pro (perhaps the worst
| laptop Apple ever made) at work, the M1 Max that replaced it
| was a revelation. I have no use for a fast GPU (in fact one of
| my pet peeves about the 2016 MBP was that they eliminated the
| no-discrete-GPU option that prior 15"s had, resulting in far
| worse thermals for no gains for many users). Your milage may,
| of course, vary, but some of us appreciate a fast CPU and have
| no use for a fast GPU (the M1 Max is, I gather, tolerably fast
| in this department, but the poor thing never gets to do
| anything other than displaying GUIs in my case...)
|
| RE ML stuff, do people actually do the heavy lifting for that
| _on laptops_ much?
| hospitalJail wrote:
| >the poor thing never gets to do anything other than
| displaying GUIs in my case...
|
| This is kind of my point.
|
| What actual CPU stuff is done in 2023?
|
| Its why Apple's marketing focuses so much on battery life.
| For a year, they won a competition that no one had cared to
| win.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| > Other tools, such as MySQL, node, git, etc. have no issue when
| running under emulation, at least in the context of development
|
| I'm surprised the author is using these under emulation. Surely
| they'd run at completely native performance if you just rub the
| through WSL2? Linux distributions have had ARM based
| distributions for ages.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| It may be because he couldn't get IntelliJ to work native in a
| way that let him access WSL, ( _" It also wasn't able to access
| WSL, meaning I was locked out of using Linux tooling all
| together."_) So that tooling was awkward.
|
| If he was stuck using windows, maybe best bet would have been
| to run an X server and run IntelliJ etc inside WSL itself.
| dantaro wrote:
| Hi, author here, you are correct! WSL tooling was locked out
| for a long time due to IntelliJ not being able to access WSL
| until the native build came down. Unfortunately, WSL on ARM
| still has some bugs around the VM hard locking itself when
| waking from sleep. It's frustrating, because when it does
| work it's fantastic.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Have you tried a standard VM? It sucks that WSL2 isn't
| working right yet, but IntelliJ has some pretty extensive
| tooling for working over a (virtual) network. It's possible
| that the sleep issue plagues normal VMs as well, but maybe
| it's worth a shot?
|
| You'd lose out on things like hardware accelerated graphics
| but reading your description it sounds like that's not
| really something you rely on anyway.
| WhereIsTheTruth wrote:
| > Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3
|
| Slower than a 3 years old M1...
|
| It's 2023 people..
| justinclift wrote:
| The 14-inch MacBook Pro pricing quoted in the article seems
| wrong.
|
| Looking at the US Apple Store right now, it has the 14-inch
| MacBook Pro with M2 Pro (10-core) cpu + 32GB ram and 1TB storage
| as US$2599, rather an US$3099.
|
| Seems outright cheaper than the Thinkpad x13s.
| tracker1 wrote:
| Yeah, after I kitted things out with full upgrades, the macbook
| does seem to be the better option, especially if you like
| macos. The rosetta 2 support and docker have come a long way
| and most of what I use at least now has aarch64 support.
| dantaro wrote:
| Interesting, when I wrote the article the prices were what I
| could generate on the Apple website, but you are correct that
| they are not the same now. I should have taken screenshots!
| Thanks for the heads up, I'll update the article to reflect
| that :)
| rhamzeh wrote:
| I'd be much more interested in the Linux situation on this
| laptop. Most of the UI applications I use casually or CLI apps
| are available on ARM (I have them running fine on a Pinephone, so
| the experience on a laptop will only be better).
|
| But not sure how the dev workflow would be: Podman, IntelliJ,
| Sublime Text, etc.. And some casual stuff like Calibre,
| Thunderbird, Joplin.
|
| Oh and how much would the battery life improvement be. I already
| get 4~5+ hours on my 5 year old Thinkpad, so an improvement to 6
| hours is not really worth it.
|
| How is the BIOS and openness on these systems? I always heard the
| arm laptops are way more locked down than the x86 ones.
| nalllar wrote:
| I run Linux on it, it works but you need a non mainline kernel
| (github.com/steev x13s branches iirc) and a dtb in the EFI
| partition
| tracker1 wrote:
| I have largely the same feelings on this. If you haven't used
| WSL on Windows, the workflow is actually very nice. You can
| install and run GUI apps in the Linux environment. I usually
| use VS Code with remoting for WSL though. My current job and
| personal setup aren't in windows, but have used it in the past
| and it's very usable, if not ideal.
|
| For now, sticking with my macbook m1 air for personal use.
| Though I really don't like the differences in the kb layout and
| hotkeys from nix or windows.
| nirui wrote:
| Same where wondering if it performs the same/better under
| Linux. I imagine the battery life could be better under Linux
| based on my experience with Windows 11 on my own laptop, I
| mean, the fans don't even spin up that often under Linux unlike
| the near constant fan chorus Windows gives me.
|
| Also, a computer without a single fan so I can comfortably use
| it on my bed? With possibility to replace it's SSD? It sounded
| a lot like my next laptop.
| gyulai wrote:
| > performs the same/better under Linux
|
| ...yeah, I was wondering that too. This seems like a job for
| a Gentoo system, compiled from the ground up with
| "-march=native". Would love to know how that would turn out
| performance-wise, in comparison to Windows.
| LoganDark wrote:
| There's also KISS Linux, which I find quite approachable
| compared to Gentoo. I know, sounds totally backwards, but I
| think it's really cool how simple it is to manage your
| repositories and make your own packages. And yes, you
| recompile the whole system with `-march=native` during the
| install process :)
|
| GKISS if you want glibc.
| jklinger410 wrote:
| > imagine the battery life could be better under Linux based
| on my experience with Windows 11 on my own laptop
|
| God, I have experienced the exact opposite with Linux on
| laptops. Battery management is so bad I am considering moving
| to a Macbook.
| freedomben wrote:
| I have had both experiences. The base system for Linux will
| be great for battery life (has been ruthlessly optimized
| for power savings by the biggest companies in the world),
| but some of the desktop software on top will brutalize your
| battery.
|
| I've experimented a lot (mainly on Fedora) and the biggest
| offenders are browsers, but also sometimes Gnome gets in a
| bad state and eats up a lot of CPU. It's often gjs eating
| CPU so it may be an app I'm leaving open or even an
| extension. I've tried to narrow it down but haven't fully
| figured it out yet.
|
| But, if you keep only a small number of tabs open and close
| everything you aren't using, battery life on Linux can be
| really great.
| jklinger410 wrote:
| > has been ruthlessly optimized for power savings by the
| biggest companies in the world
|
| It has been ruthlessly optimized to save power for
| servers with greatly documented hardware structures.
|
| It has not been optimized for Desktop OS, for Bluetooth,
| Sleep, WiFi, graphics card power saving etc.
|
| I am a tab zero guy, for the record. I've been using
| computers since Windows 3, so I'm very sensitive towards
| intensive processes.
|
| My wife can watch netflix on her (5 year old) Macbook for
| hours. I lose 13% battery life on one episode. I leave my
| laptop on sleep off the charger, and it is dead sleeping
| after a few hours. Linux users may hack their way to
| lower battery usage, but they still do not have it like
| Mac does.
|
| You must simply leave it on the charger and turn it off
| when you are done. They are portable desktops.
| michaelmrose wrote:
| A big difference in battery life comes down to hardware
| acceleration in your browser which depending on
| hardware,browser, and version may not be enabled.
| ktm5j wrote:
| What DE/distro do you use? I'm actually super impressed
| with the battery life I get with Fedora/KDE on my ASUS
| Ryzen laptop.
| nine_k wrote:
| What does your `top` say? What does your browser's
| performance tool (e.g. `about:performance`) say?
|
| I went from a constantly-overheated Linux laptop to a
| completely calm Linux laptop, on the same hardware, distro,
| and DE. Checking for unnecessary processes that eat CPU,
| spurious ACPI events, overly-heavyweight browser tabs goes
| a long way. Making sure the browser uses hardware support
| to play YouTube is another heavyweight.
|
| It takes some time, but much less time than I had expected.
| jklinger410 wrote:
| So the Mac has battery saving built in to the OS. You are
| doing a lot of reverse engineering to achieve something
| other software/hardware does automatically.
|
| And to be specific, I suffer from bad hardware/software
| communication. On a linux laptop, no less (System76,
| which I would never recommend). Linux S3 sleep is not
| hardware sleep, I lose a lot of battery there. WiFi and
| Bluetooth connectivity either has to be battery draining
| or have poor performance.
|
| The battery my laptop has itself is also too small, and
| could only get moderately good life if it had an
| optimized OS anyway. Again, a Linux-first laptop.
|
| I am sure if I switched to a Lenovo with a big battery
| that I would be better off than I am now, so I'm also
| complaining a bit about my hardware. But the problem is
| still there.
|
| With Apple M2 paired with an OS designed for it, with
| high end batteries and screens, I don't see any pairing
| of (laptop) hardware and software competing, on a
| fundamental level. Every other system is second class.
|
| Edit: ACPI events is the key word here, and it is not
| worth anyone's time to wade through that garbage to get
| sane laptop performance. The ACPI stuff isn't even
| designed for end users to alter, and it is hacked
| together due to all the hardware variations out there. It
| is simply doing the best job it can, on average.
|
| There's kind of an implicit lie when people say linux
| works on laptops at all. It works on MOST laptop
| configurations in MOST functions. But it BARELY works in
| others. You find this once you dig sufficiently deep
| enough.
|
| I keep my laptop plugged in. It's pathetic.
| nine_k wrote:
| I run the OS of my choice on hardware of my choice in a
| way of my choice (that is, not Debian, Ubuntu, or
| Fedora). The small amount of tweaking I have to do to get
| the experience tailored for me personally is completely
| worth it, besides other, less tangible benefits like
| "free as in freedom".
|
| If I were fine with someone else making all these
| decisions for me, because making them myself is more
| painful than accepting someone else's not entirely
| comfortable decision, I'd go for an Apple device, no
| doubt.
|
| Tweaking the OS to play nicely with particular hardware
| is key. Apple are very good at it. I suppose e.g. System
| 76 also tweak Pop OS to run especially smoothly on their
| hardware. Linux is very much ready for that: when I
| worked at Google (2011-15), I had a Linux laptop with a
| Google's internal variety of Ubuntu, adapted to a
| relatively few hardware models they used as desktops and
| laptops. It worked basically flawlessly, and my T420 had
| like 6 hours of battery runtime browsing and coding. All
| I had to customize was the GTK theme and such.
|
| Maybe something like "tweak packs" that adapt Linux to
| some very specific widespread hardware could be a hit.
| michaelmrose wrote:
| > Linux S3 sleep is not hardware sleep
|
| No this is completely down your hard hardware
| rhamzeh wrote:
| Based on my experience, I can tell you the grass is not
| greener on the other side.
|
| Forced to use Mac for work, the previous Macbook Pro would
| lose charge _while plugged in_! The battery goes empty, it
| shuts off and I wait for it to recharge while off.
|
| They recently changed mine to an M1. Battery is much better
| than the previous generation and could be good, so long as
| you're not using it for anything. As soon as the
| IDE/Zoom/Docker/what have you spins up, it loses charge. It
| is slower at loses charge while plugged in, but so long as
| you are not using it except for note taking, I would not
| trust away from a power source.
|
| If I don't have a power source nearby, I turn everything
| off and switch my dev workflow to Sublime to prolong the
| battery.
|
| I don't have to suffer any of these shenanigans under
| Linux. Granted, I have a Thinkpad, which has great Linux
| support, so that definitely helps.
| callalex wrote:
| Sounds to me like you're using a low wattage charger that
| was not designed to be used with your pro-grade machine.
| oneplane wrote:
| Sounds like defective devices. Haven't had a single issue
| like that on any of our fleets. (mixed T2, M1, M2
| devices, around 210 per fleet, around 7 fleets in 3
| different countries)
|
| Usage (varies over time...): software development
| (JetBrains, NetBeans, VSCode, Sublime, vim), google meet,
| slack, rancher desktop, docker desktop (being phased
| out), capture one, creative cloud, OBS, virtual desktops
| for local testing.
|
| We have had self-discharge on HP ProBooks and EliteBooks
| but that was due to a bad USB-C implementation and was
| fixed with third-party chargers. Some older Dells had it
| too, but that was with dual power input (USB-C and
| classic barrel) and switching over to the legacy chargers
| didn't have that issue. Those run a mix of Windows and
| Linux.
| dvhh wrote:
| I think some of the aarch64 laptop have landed in the Linux
| kernel source tree.
|
| I am currently using a C630 laptop wich could be considered a
| predecessor to the discussed model ( with an anemic 4GB of
| RAM), and following up some botched Windows update (Windows
| recovery put the system in a worst place). I decided to take
| the plunge and install Linux.
|
| Hardware support is rough, and depends a lot on firmware file
| you would need to salvage from the windows partition.
|
| So far without these files, among the most necessary stuff I
| would like to have.
|
| - Wifi, I a coping with a wifi dongle, wich mean I am out of
| one of the 2 usb-c ports
|
| - Sound ( usual linux problem, worked around the issue, with
| another dongle, or Bluetooth audio)
|
| - External display support (worked on windows)
|
| Otherwise, linux experience is leagues ahead of Windows, in
| terms of boot time and responsiveness. Battery life is great
| for my use ( mainly write python and C code ). And far as
| battery life improvement, your mileage can vary, I haven't
| timed mine yet but can try and will report in a week about it
| (maybe you ca give me aome pointer to simulate the usual load
| your would put it through).
|
| - podman work great
|
| - sublime text run as smooth as it is on x86-64
|
| - bios is an UEFI and I dont think it required a signed
| bootloader, although updating the setting to boot grub was not
| as straightforward.
|
| - I am mainly using Wayland, with most of the caveats
| associated to it (Firefox does flicker a lot, so I am mainly
| using chromium)
|
| On the most annoying side, I don't know if there is a way to
| configure the lid action, as it put the laptop on standby.
|
| I would recommend, if only for the gain in thinness and if you
| are traveling a lot with your laptop.
| rhamzeh wrote:
| Thanks for that! Probably in a couple of years, as my laptop
| is still serving me well enough for now. It's also pretty
| light and still has good battery, so not a ton of benefit
| there.
|
| If the battery life was doubled (~8+ hours), that definitely
| would be more intriguing.
|
| But ouch, hadn't had WiFi or sound issues on Linux since the
| 2009~2010 era, will not be fun to get back to that, though
| hopefully in a few years as the drivers mature, this would
| become less of an issue.
|
| > On the most annoying side, I don't know if there is a way
| to configure the lid action, as it put the laptop on standby.
|
| Even when an external display is connected? That's got to be
| annoying!
| sspiff wrote:
| When I last checked, the mainline kernel support for the 8cx
| was EXTREMELY limited. Having messed around with lots of ARM
| based devices on Linux in the past, I would not bother with
| this one. Especially given that rather unimpressive battery
| life.
|
| I'd love a modern ARM based Linux laptop, but I also know that
| unless it's got mainline kernel support or a dedicated Linux
| friendly vendor (like Pine) behind it, it's lifetime and
| updates are going to be extremely limited. And that doesn't
| even consider graphics API support, which will have an impact
| on rather basic things, such as YouTube video playback.
|
| Honestly, the only viable ARM laptop with good battery life and
| modern day performance is an Apple MacBook Air or Pro, which
| has a very impressive community project behind it. But even
| that is still incomplete and might peter out if some key
| figures burn out or become uninterested or preoccupied with
| for-pay work or whatever.
| wyldfire wrote:
| > When I last checked, the mainline kernel support for the
| 8cx was EXTREMELY limited.
|
| Is that the case? I would've thought the devices present in
| 8cx are similar to the other Snapdragon 8 series which would
| probably be well supported upstream? Or do they linger in a
| GKI tree before landing upstream?
|
| Maybe the exclusivity between QCOM/MS is mutual and they'll
| be able to partner with vendors like Canonical in the future.
|
| Personally - I would love an XPS13 ARM linux laptop,
| hopefully Dell decides to jump on the bandwagon. I have owned
| i5/i7 XPS13s for several years now and am looking forward to
| ARM if they can make one that performs well.
| mfashby wrote:
| I use a pinebook pro (same company as the pinephone). Sublime
| works a treat. So does thunderbird, calibre.
|
| Intellij doesn't have aarch64 Linux distributions, you can kind
| of hack it together it's completely unsupported. Not sure about
| Joplin but I expect it would be ok (I think it's electron
| based? VS code works ok too).
|
| Re locked-down: pbp can run many different Linux variants, and
| boots with tow-boot bootloader. Hopefully that would support
| ThinkPad to, but I don't know.
| retypepassword wrote:
| > Intellij doesn't have aarch64 Linux distributions
|
| https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/download/download-
| thanks.html...
|
| https://www.jetbrains.com/rider/download/download-
| thanks.htm...
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| Like the author, I also do a lot of Kotlin development and use
| intellij and pycharm a lot. This sounds like an awful laptop to
| do that on. Kotlin is great but it's compiler is rather slow and
| you end up waiting for that a lot. So, faster is better.
|
| I noticed about a 2.5x build speed improvements when I upgraded
| my cheap Samsung i5 laptop (a temporary thing I used for a while)
| to the M1 14" Mac Book Pro. On a typical day, I run full builds
| quite often so this really matters to me. The difference between
| waiting 5 minutes or 1.5 is really important to me. During this
| build, 250 integration tests run with 20 threaads maxing out all
| of the cpu cores.
|
| This windows laptop is being described as a lack luster i5 sounds
| like it would be a hard no for me. That and all the other issues
| (the usual meh touchpad, the underwhelming GPU, etc.) makes for
| an overpriced laptop that just isn't worth having. You can
| probably get something way nicer for the money. Including a mac.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Silly question ; am I the only person who still uses a desktop
| / tower machine? Feels like I'm a huge minority these days, but
| when it comes to needing processing power and juice it still
| feels it provides budget and upgrade flexibility no laptop can
| match.
| cbsks wrote:
| I use a desktop that I can remotely access. So I can do
| development on my fast computer from anywhere. It's always on
| so it's easy to run long jobs.
|
| Since my laptop is basically just a thin client used for ssh,
| vnc, and a web browser, it's super easily replaced.
| darkclouds wrote:
| I've yet to find an offline desktop which can be secured,
| let alone work on it from a remote location.
|
| Cant people detect when their offline machines are
| being/have been hacked?
| adrian_b wrote:
| If the desktop is insecure, it is always possible to put
| it behind a secure firewall implemented with a small
| computer, e.g. a NUC-like computer or one of the many
| cheap, small and fanless computers with multiple Ethernet
| ports that are available now exactly for implementing
| firewalls, routers or other similar network appliances.
|
| Of course, configuring correctly a secure firewall
| requires some expertise, but it should not be too
| difficult to find online resources or someone willing to
| help.
|
| I have done exactly like this for accessing remotely my
| desktop during the last two decades, without any problems
| whatsoever.
| tracker1 wrote:
| It's much like anything else... I run my desktop under
| Linux, keep it upodated, have SSH on a non-standard port
| with only public/private key access enabled for my
| account. I access it over wireguard running on my home
| server. Wireguard is the only port available through my
| firewall.
|
| So I can connect to my home network over wireguard, and
| SSH to my desktop. VS Code + Remoting extensions work
| great for this... almost like editing locally, but
| running remotely. The integrated terminal in VS Code is
| invaluable when doing this.
| adrian_b wrote:
| I do the same, for the same reasons.
| helf wrote:
| [dead]
| LoganDark wrote:
| I actually built a desktop tower, and then built a laptop to
| use it from bed! Because I found that regular laptops were
| totally unacceptable. I tried to cope with a gaming laptop
| but could not. It built up so many issues over less than 2
| years that it became worthless.
|
| Anyway, I get all the "portability" of a laptop (with my
| display, keyboard, and trackpad(!) in bed), but all the
| performance of an honest-to-Arceus desktop, with a full
| desktop 12400F (boosting up to 5.2GHz on all 6 cores at a
| cool 130W) and a full desktop RTX 3060 12GB (I regret not
| getting the Ti for performance reasons, but for VRAM reasons
| this is acceptable since I do ML work).
| [deleted]
| glitchc wrote:
| I have a nice big workstation with heck load of cores, memory
| and a 4090. It's the only way to fly. Laptops are great for
| emails but toys when it comes to dev machines.
| LoganDark wrote:
| Jealous. I'm still trying to save up for a slightly bigger
| cooler to handle the 130W of my 12400F under load. It hits
| 5.2Ghz.
| nightowl_games wrote:
| I noticed a lot of people switching to desktop during work
| from home. They have this gaming PC just sitting there, and
| it turns out to be way faster than there stationary MacBook.
|
| Personally I use a desktop at a standing desk from 9-5 and a
| 13" laptop around the house/on the deck.
|
| I'm likely going to upgrade from the Dell XPS 13 to a MacBook
| Air, but the desktop is a higher priority. She could use some
| upgrades.
| didntcheck wrote:
| My personal machine is a desktop, and I have a laptop that I
| use for light portable web browsing occasionally. But for
| work I've come to expect to be given a laptop. It means you
| can easily WFH, take it to a meeting, or hot desk, without
| needing to RDP/VNC. And neither I nor my company would want
| me doing work stuff on my personal desktop. I do know some
| developers who work by remoting to a VM instead (often as
| part of a compromise to let developers have admin/root access
| for development tooling)
| kubafu wrote:
| You are definitely not. Writing this from my work machine,
| passively cooled Ryzen desktop, which has been serving me
| well for the past 5 years. And I don't miss much having a
| laptop. I work from home anyways.
|
| I think the demographics depends heavily on industry. I know
| many people doing 3D work and they all use desktops these
| days.
| sharikous wrote:
| I notice a lot of people using desktop in the office an
| having a personal laptop.
|
| But also there has been a shift to cloud instances that
| provide the flexibility you say at the price of renouncing
| ownership of the machine. Especially for GPU-based
| computations.
| goodoldneon wrote:
| I'd love the power of a desktop but I can't leave my house
| with it
| cbsks wrote:
| Wireguard+SSH+VNC works wonders for me.
| ianai wrote:
| Does VNC get laggy once you're in more restricted
| bandwidth ie hotel/cell/etc?
| tracker1 wrote:
| Yeah, it's not great remotely... If you are mostly in an
| editor, VS Code's remoting extensions over ssh are pretty
| great as an experience.
| cbsks wrote:
| Yes. I typically only need SSH so that isn't a huge
| concern for me. I only rarely need a GUI.
| LoganDark wrote:
| How's the performance with 4K?
| jimaek wrote:
| I can't wait for proper high end ARM laptops with Microsoft's
| backing and support.
|
| I'm like the author, I consider the M MacBooks very impressive
| but I dislike the OS itself.
|
| And it was very unexpected that Chrome underperform so much,
| without it it's a complete deal breaker for me.
| imtringued wrote:
| As if those will come any time soon. The big ARM scare of 2017
| is already over. ARM is not competitive. By the time they catch
| up in the server and laptop markets, RISC-V will have eaten
| their lunch. All they have left to do is run marketing
| campaigns against RISC-V and watch their inevitable decline.
| pram wrote:
| 2033 the year of RISC-V on the desktop?
| throwaway2990 wrote:
| Why? Chrome is such a terrible browser to begin with. How is it
| a deal breaker?
| jasaldivara wrote:
| In my own experience, Chromium browser (which is the base for
| Google Chrome) works much better (faster) than Firefox on my
| Pinebook Pro (ARM, Linux).
|
| But I think the author is using Chrome under emulation, so
| bad performance is expected.
| dantaro wrote:
| Correct, I didn't grab the ARM Chromium build, only Chrome.
| If you want to avoid using Edge then Chromium or Firefox is
| the way to go.
| olliej wrote:
| Given edge is just a chromium wrapper, why avoid it? Just
| ecosystem issues? (Password managers, etc?)
| kybernetikos wrote:
| I can't speak to the GPs reasons, but Chrome has a large
| enough user-base that anyone building for the web is going to
| want to at least test their work in it.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| > Luckily (or perhaps shadily), you will rarely ever pay the full
| price for the Thinkpad x13s. As is tradition, Lenovo seems to be
| perpetually running deals, taking up to 40% off (at time of
| writing, 45% time of purchase), bringing the laptop to a much
| more reasonable $1479.60.
|
| If something has a $2500 price tag but always has _a deal_ where
| you can take it only for $1500 then the real price is $1500, not
| $2500.
| adrian_b wrote:
| Lenovo is not the only vendor who uses these tricks.
|
| I have not looked recently at the Dell site, but in previous
| years, for many years, every time when I have looked at Dell
| Precision mobile workstations, they always claimed that the
| price that what listed at that moment was more than one
| thousand dollars less than the "normal" price.
| nikanj wrote:
| They cost the normal amount when the government is buying
| them
| einpoklum wrote:
| For a developer, this laptop sucks.
|
| ... but, why would I use such harsh rhetoric?
|
| That's ecause the most important component of a laptop is not its
| CPU; it is the --==[[ keyboard ]]==--.
|
| A laptop without a keyboard with decent key travel and tactile
| feedback simply deters you from using it. People who do not write
| much (code, documents, etc.) - can perhaps make do with point-
| and-click-oriented laptops. We cannot. That's why are currently
| condemned to choose between 10-year-old CPUs and I/O ports, but
| with decent keyboards; and fancy modern CPUs in laptops that are
| inconvenient to use.
|
| Now look at this laptop's keyboard:
|
| https://p3-ofp.static.pub/fes/cms/2022/03/03/ww9s3cycoxj6gbs...
|
| they keys barely even protrude from the surrounding surface!
| soulbadguy wrote:
| Yeah i have to call BS on this narrative that somewhat the
| keyboard is the most important thing for developer. Writing
| code is not writing documentation or writing books : Most of
| time spent not on typing letter... Debugging, reading code,
| thinking about a code etc... are more important. I have yet to
| see a case where typing speed is a limiting factor for coding.
| Loads of non-dev information workers type way more than dev...
| einpoklum wrote:
| It's true that if a laptop doesn't have a monitor, you can't
| use it to read code. But - you don't need an ultra-perfect
| color reproduction, super-low refresh rate etc. on your
| monitor to read code. So if your laptop has a TN rather than
| IPS panel - that might be consideration but nothing like
| decent keyboard or not.
|
| And debugging we do with our brains mostly :-)
| callalex wrote:
| Please keep in mind that humans have a huge variety of anatomy,
| movement, and strength. While I don't doubt that high travel
| keyboards are more comfortable and painless for YOU
| specifically, I can assure you that your experience does not
| speak for everyone. Extrapolating your keyboard preferences to
| every body shape is like expecting an Olympic gymnast to be
| comfortable in a pregnant baryatric person's pants.
|
| Please consider that most people don't care about long key
| travel, and that some people such as myself actually strongly
| prefer short key travel as it reduces pain for me. Also, have
| you used this keyboard or are you judging it based on one
| zoomed out marketing image?
| rsynnott wrote:
| > Chrome is slow and frustrating to use, with delayed animations
| and noticeable input lag, it's such a frustration that I entirely
| gave up on Chrome in favor of Edge which runs natively.
|
| This is kind of surprising, because Windows for ARM has been
| around for _7 years_ (I'm ignoring ye olde Windows RT here,
| because everyone else did). I got an ARM Mac Mini a couple of
| months after they launched; at that point, while there was still
| a good bit of stuff with poor or no native support (most
| annoying: IntelliJ; don't think it got native support for about
| six months), native Chrome was already available.
|
| I suppose the difference is that third parties don't see Windows
| for ARM as a serious product, but there's a definite chicken and
| egg problem there.
| gyulai wrote:
| I'm going to assume that, not being an Intel processor, it won't
| have Intel Management Engine. So where does this device land
| privacy-wise? Can this device safely be recommended for highly
| privacy-focused people who might otherwise choose "respects your
| freedom certified" [1] legacy hardware? Or does it have something
| similar to IME with similarly negative privacy implications?
|
| [1] https://ryf.fsf.org/
| DaSHacka wrote:
| Given that this is a Lenovo laptop, one who is truly concerned
| about privacy may want to avoid it regardless [0]. Not to
| mention none of it is open source, from the firmware to the
| hardware, so I hardly see this as a suitable replacement for
| people looking to run FSF-approved computers.
|
| [0]
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenovo#Security_and_privacy_...
| sspiff wrote:
| I find that battery life extremely uninspiring. I wonder if
| that's because of Windows, JetBrains or a combination of both.
|
| I run a x86-64 laptop with Linux AND decicated graphics (Ryzen
| 6850u and Radeon 6800S) and get 6-10 hours of battery life while
| developing.
|
| Granted, that's after quite a bit of tweaking - I've configured
| my monitor to go to 60hz, limit the CPU to only 4 cores/8 threads
| and 2200MHz while on battery. I write Rust with rust-analyzer so
| the CPU is constantly in use, and my browser of choice (Firefox)
| is far less optimized for battery life than any chrome-based
| browser is on Windows.
|
| This gives me a laptop with no concessions with regards to
| compatibility and it's probably running loops around this ARM
| based chip, even when running at my tuned-down power settings.
|
| I'd love to have a Linux compatible ARM laptop, but if they don't
| give you real world double digit battery life, why bother?
| hospitalJail wrote:
| Meanwhile I've had my laptops plugged in for 99.999% of their
| life.
|
| Sometimes I'll unplug to bring it to an overnight christmas
| party or camping to watch a movie at night. Then I'll probably
| end up plugging it in when I arrive.
|
| Just remembered, one time I brought my laptop to a real estate
| meeting, and it was so boring I did work during it. But the
| meeting was over in an hour.
|
| I'm sure some people like having their computer not plugged in,
| but a docked laptop is so nice.
| solarkraft wrote:
| My laptop is plugged in 95% of the time. In the 5% of cases
| not having to worry about plugging in is great.
| pmontra wrote:
| What's all the fuss about glass vs plastic touchpad in the
| article? I never had a glass touchpad on my laptops but I had
| glass touchpads on all my smartphones (the screen.) I see why the
| screen of the phone can't be plastic (colors, scratches, more?)
| but I never felt that the plastic touchpads of my laptops did not
| do their job as nicely as the screens of my phones.
| faster_harder wrote:
| It reminds me of the glass vs plastic phone backside arguments.
| Glass is more fragile than plastic and will not absorb shocks.
| It is also heavier and harder to replace (most plastic
| backsides can be removed with a guitar pick).
|
| But glass is considered _premium_.
| ChainOfFools wrote:
| I was astonished at the amount of ink, or pixels wasted by
| this ridiculous and completely manufactured distinction on
| the part of inept tech "journalists" and bloggers who had to
| find something non-technical to identify a pecking order
| among phones in order to attract readership who didn't
| understand the more subtle distinctions between features that
| affect actual usage of the phone.
|
| The only other ridiculous argument that had an even worse
| effect on the net usability of phones, as well as the
| indistinguishable limited variety that we have today, is the
| ridiculous obsession with thinness. And then everyone puts a
| case on it anyway.
|
| Thin, thin, thin, and a glass back on top of that. I'm not
| usually sympathetic to conspiracies but it sure seems like
| the interests of phone manufacturers ( especially one in
| particular) who want to sell a new throaway device every year
| were suspiciously well served by both of these absurd
| abitrary obsessions of the tech press.
| LoganDark wrote:
| I hate thin and light so, so much.
|
| People say "vote with your feet" and "just don't buy the
| stuff you don't like", but you can't exactly buy nothing
| when there are no options you like, because what if you
| need a laptop anyway? So you end up having to buy something
| "thin and light" which is a signal to the OEM that people
| want more thin and light even if all they wanted was a
| laptop.
| ChainOfFools wrote:
| Unfortunately the phrase vote with your feet is too often
| misapplied either by the hopelessly idealistic at one
| end, or by the toxically cynical at the other.
|
| particularly those who are well aware that you have two
| feet to work with while their side has paid influence
| wrangling a stampede of cattle in the other directiin.
| LoganDark wrote:
| I mean, some otherkin have (/identify as having) four
| paws. But that's still not enough to do anything lol
| RistrettoMike wrote:
| It just feels nicer to use. Not more functional to use, but it
| does _feel_ different to your fingertip.
|
| Like the author mentions, it's not a dealbreaker, but is a
| calling-card of this particular machine's build/materials/specs
| not living up to its pricetag.
| pzautke wrote:
| Not a developer but have found the T14s AMD Gen 3 to have
| significantly better real world (i.e. browsing) battery life than
| my X13s had.
| oneplane wrote:
| With the current specs, pricing and usefulness this actually
| seems like a bad deal. Not a useless deal, and in the Windows
| space perhaps the only real deal, but a bad deal nonetheless.
|
| What it can be is a good starting point for the industry to get
| moving. Not sure if this runs SystemReady firmware or if this is
| using Microsoft's UEFI stack, but either way it could finally get
| vendorland moving.
| soulbadguy wrote:
| "high-end" arm windows machines never made much sense to me. It
| seems that the main appeal is longer battery life, but looking at
| the recent CPU from AMD, and the rumors of the next CPU from
| intel.It's seem clear to me that x86 is making more progress in
| reducing power consumption than arm is making in performance. And
| i wouldn't be surprise that in a couple of year we get very
| efficient x86 cpu's from both AMD and intel.
| tracker1 wrote:
| AMD is getting here, certainly... the latest 7430HS mini PCs
| still use 6-8W at idle though, which is quite a bit more than
| ARM still. I've been using an m1 air as a personall laptop and
| when traveling rarely even think about having to plug it in...
| for my limited use with the screen around 60% brightness, I can
| use it all day and then some. Mostly text/email or remote
| editing (wireguard, ssh, vs code).
| soulbadguy wrote:
| I agree, Mx laptop are still miles ahead in term of
| performance per what. But i would venture to suggest that a
| lot of it is more about the platform (OS, BIOS,chipset etc...
| etc...) then the CPU per-say.
| CameronNemo wrote:
| Isn't 7430HS a Zen3 chip? Presumably Zen4 will be better.
| Remains to he seen, though.
| rilut wrote:
| Does anybody have experience with printers with Windows on ARM?
| How are the drivers situation?
| tracker1 wrote:
| Good question... personally I've been using hp laser printers
| over network for years and they work with everything I've used.
| Windows, Mac, Linux, Android phones and tablets without issue.
| deng wrote:
| People forget that it is not just the processor that consumes
| power. The reason the new MacBooks are so efficient is not just
| because they are ARM-based, it is also because they have
| incredibly energy efficient screens, WiFi, RAM, SSDs, etc. They
| can achieve this through their sophisticated manufacturing
| process, with highly integrated components directly soldered onto
| the board, a fact that is widely (and correctly) criticized for
| making repairs and expansion nigh impossible, but it is also true
| that this is much more power efficient than what you can achieve
| with a more modular design. I have a Thinkpad L14 AMD, it
| consumes well below 10W for casual browsing/reading mails under
| Linux. I would wager that maybe 1/3 of that is consumed by the
| CPU. So even if you had a CPU with 0W consumption, I would just
| increase my battery life by a third, at least for that kind of
| usage.
| LoganDark wrote:
| Is it really that hard to design sockets that don't waste such
| a significant amount of energy? Honest question. Do you really
| save so much by soldering something without any type of ribbon,
| socket, or other removable connector in between?
| deng wrote:
| For RAM, yes. Soldering it down right next to the CPU allows
| for lower voltages and faster bus speeds. For SSDs, it's more
| difficult. It surely makes no difference for standard PCIe,
| there's really no excuse to solder that one to the board. I'm
| actually not sure how exactly SSDs work in a MacBook M1/M2. I
| think it's plain NAND storage soldered directly onto the
| board, with the controller in the M1/M2. I have no idea about
| power savings here, but it sure is fast...
| LoganDark wrote:
| For RAM I think even the trace length on the motherboard
| matters but this is just a reason for why the sockets are
| usually near the CPU, not a reason why you would have to
| eschew sockets altogether.
| rsynnott wrote:
| I'm drawing a blank on what it was called now, but way back
| in the day, in response to the Intel Apple laptops having far
| better battery life than apparently equivalent Wintel
| machines, Intel launched a programme to improve laptop
| platforms. IIRC, at the time, some laptops had up to about
| 10W worth of inefficient/non-essential (or completely
| unusable; controllers for parallel ports but no actual
| parallel ports for instance) chippery on their motherboards.
|
| I'd assume all the low-hanging fruit is _long_ gone there,
| though.
| einpoklum wrote:
| "You're a software engineer who loves Windows... you COULD switch
| to a Mac... looking around... Microsoft's own Surface Laptop"
|
| What kind of person is writing that article? Sounds like someone
| who's identity is first and foremost a rich guy from the US.
| soulbadguy wrote:
| Most of us on here are ... what's your point ?
| einpoklum wrote:
| > Most of us on here are ...
|
| I hope that's not the case... as most developers are not
| USers, and while they may make a decent living, I doubt most
| developers would consider blowing thousands of dollars on a
| Mac (regardless of whether they like it SW/HW-wise). And who
| buys Microsoft laptops? That's weird.
| soulbadguy wrote:
| > as most developers are not USers
|
| Yes, but this a english speaking forum, from a mainly US
| based incubator, so the audience is self-selecte... Nothing
| against dev from other part of the world.
|
| > I doubt most developers would consider blowing thousands
| of dollars on a Mac
|
| Mac are consistently the most selling laptop... so clearly
| someone is buying them.
|
| > And who buys Microsoft laptops? That's weird.
|
| Agree. Big mistake, but this one is on me :)
| bpye wrote:
| Full disclosure - I do work at Microsoft on Windows. One of the
| work devices I have is a Surface Pro X - and it has been
| generally a good experience. I don't really write code on the
| device (I work on Hyper-V), but for browsing, Office, Remote
| Desktop, WPA etc it's good.
|
| My biggest annoyance is that Motu don't have ARM64 drivers for
| their audio interfaces, so I can't use the one I have for
| microphone input. I've tried asking - but it doesn't seem like
| it's even on their roadmap, which is unfortunate. I'm pretty sure
| they license the Thesycon driver which does now support ARM64 [0]
| - but I guess they need to either update or just build the ARM64
| version... The inbox class driver doesn't work because Motu use
| implicit feedback.
|
| [0] - https://www.thesycon.de/eng/usb_audiodriver.shtml
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