[HN Gopher] Why do men stupefy themselves? Leo Tolstoy on why we...
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       Why do men stupefy themselves? Leo Tolstoy on why we drink (2014)
        
       Author : yamrzou
       Score  : 60 points
       Date   : 2023-06-29 21:01 UTC (2 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.themarginalian.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.themarginalian.org)
        
       | dougmwne wrote:
       | Around the time I hit 30, alcohol just kind of stopped working
       | for me. It makes me feel a little calm and tired, but the
       | euphoria is gone. Previously I was close to having a problem with
       | drinking and went out a few too many night a week for a few too
       | many drinks. I still drink a little, but in the kind of way
       | someone might drink milkshakes. I sort of miss it, but sort of
       | don't.
        
       | orblivion wrote:
       | > Some those who have never once taken the trouble to consider
       | whether they do well or ill to drink wine may add that wine is
       | good for the health and adds to one's strength; that is to say,
       | will make a statement long since proved baseless.
       | 
       | Wait how did Tolstoy know this? The studies proving it baseless
       | only came out like a year ago!
        
       | ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
       | Call me crazy, but as a highly analytical person that has spent
       | 70% of my waking hours in the last five years working on
       | something technical, my social skills are best when I'm hungover.
       | The logical analytical side of me is diminished and I am much
       | more "normal". I have a much higher rate of success on dates with
       | women when I have a really bad hang over and then a few drinks.
       | It does feel like a lobotomy, and that's fine.
       | 
       | If I am in my normal raw intellect, I will begin going deep on
       | some topic thats outside the range of normal human discourse. It
       | will be hard for me to stop, because of my interest. Alcohol
       | removes that to a large degree.
       | 
       | Edit:
       | 
       | A funny meta observation, the "Peak HN" comment below, and the
       | following conversation, might not have been necessary if I wrote
       | this post very hungover.
        
         | gizmo wrote:
         | But... this way you end up dating somebody that only likes you
         | when you're hung over. That doesn't sound like a winning
         | strategy to me.
        
         | RoddaWallPro wrote:
         | I relate to this, though perhaps obliquely.
         | 
         | I feel far more peaceful and centered when I am hungover. I
         | don't have a thousand things flying around the edges of my
         | brain, nipping at my consciousness. I just _am_.
         | 
         | Drinking can do that for me too, but it shuts off so much of my
         | brain that eventually, it's like being what I imagine a dog is.
         | Completely reactive, with almost no higher thinking. Not that
         | that is bad. I enjoy it.
         | 
         | If not for how bad it makes me feel physically, I'd probably
         | spend most of my waking hours either drunk or hungover. What
         | that says about me, I hesitate to think about, hah.
         | 
         | I also found that in my limited experience with meditation, I
         | could sometimes find that place of tranquility and "simply
         | being". But it was so rare, and the experience of meditation so
         | frustrating and seemingly impossible to progress in, that I
         | gave up. But I still hold that what I am after in meditating is
         | the same thing that I am after in a night of drinking. Single-
         | threadedness, peace, acceptance.
        
           | ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
           | Yeah the issue is its really unhealthy to drink enough to be
           | hungover multiple times a week. But then the question is,
           | what are we saving ourselves for? Life is happening.
           | 
           | I've tried meditation, could never reach a high enough level
           | with it to feel sustained peace/calmness. I should put more
           | effort into it though
        
         | nvy wrote:
         | Are you sure it's the raw intellect turning women away and not,
         | you know, unpleasant levels of arrogance?
        
           | ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
           | haha :) didnt realize this came off so poorly
        
             | sctb wrote:
             | * * *
        
         | hackhackerschor wrote:
         | Are you sure you mean hungover?
        
           | ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
           | Yes. Going from sober -> drunk does not remove my somewhat
           | autist analytical bent. Being hungover, my brain is moving
           | alot slower, less detailed, etc.
        
         | newprint wrote:
         | I had zero social circle and no significant other in my life,
         | until I started drinking. World opened up for me after I
         | started consuming alcohol. Edit: However, you need to be
         | responsible. Alcohol badly derailed my life once.
        
         | hbn wrote:
         | I'm the complete opposite, I can barely put a sentence together
         | when I'm hungover.
         | 
         | To be fair I can barely put a sentence together when sober
         | either.
        
           | layer8 wrote:
           | What's your current state of soberness?
        
             | hbn wrote:
             | If you mean at the current moment in time, I'm sober. And
             | it's easier when I'm typing and can edit my sentences as I
             | go. But in day-to-day, trying to explain things or convey
             | my thoughts coherently, I'm pretty bad. I think it's gotten
             | worse in the past few years with how isolated I've been
             | starting with the pandemic.
        
               | com2kid wrote:
               | > If you mean at the current moment in time, I'm sober.
               | And it's easier when I'm typing and can edit my sentences
               | as I go. But in day-to-day, trying to explain things or
               | convey my thoughts coherently, I'm pretty bad. I think
               | it's gotten worse in the past few years with how isolated
               | I've been starting with the pandemic.
               | 
               | Talking is a skill like any other.
               | 
               | So, a comparison.
               | 
               | You know how you can picture a car in your head but you
               | can't make _draw_ a car unless you 've spent time
               | practicing as an artist? That is because connecting our
               | mental representation of "a car" and making our hand draw
               | a car is a skill that requires a _lot_ of training. This
               | is why artists practice drawing still lives, looking at
               | an orange and copying it down to paper with a pencil
               | trains your brain on how to translate the thing that is
               | visually inside your head to what your hand needs to do
               | to re-create it.
               | 
               | Well, the same for mental dialogue. Going from "idea in
               | head" to "words coming out of mouth" is a skill that
               | takes practice.
               | 
               | There are ways to practice this! Toastmasters is a famous
               | group whose goal is improving this skill, but there are
               | many other routes. I had good luck with table top RPGs, I
               | spent years playing a character who is supposed to be
               | charismatic, and accordingly I had lots of chances to
               | practices being outgoing!
               | 
               | We are good at the things we practice doing!
        
         | zarakshR wrote:
         | > If I am in my normal raw intellect, I will begin going deep
         | on some topic thats outside the range of normal human
         | discourse. It will be hard for me to stop, because of my
         | interest. Alcohol removes that to a large degree.
         | 
         | Peak HN.
        
           | giraffe_lady wrote:
           | It's 1985 I am stoned with my roommate hearing this comment.
           | it's 2008 I am on reddit reading this comment. it's 2023 I am
           | on HN reading this comment.
        
             | jahsome wrote:
             | It's 2040 and BroGPT 7 responds with this to all prompts.
        
           | jcims wrote:
           | The description might be a bit indulgent, but the experience
           | resonates. Having a conversation about flowers and your mind
           | wants to talk about why there seems to be an innate
           | attraction towards the scent of certain flowers. Like what is
           | the electrochemical process that creates sensation in your
           | mind of attraction and beauty and a pleasant experience when
           | a certain set of chemicals bind to receptors in your head.
           | 
           | But then you don't because the last time you did something
           | like that you just got a blank stare, and 'hmmm!' and a
           | change in topics.
        
             | giraffe_lady wrote:
             | There's no brain so big it prevents you from just enjoying
             | the smell of the flower instead.
        
           | johnfn wrote:
           | Is there something wrong with talking about the problems
           | associated with intelligence? They certainly exist and I
           | think most intelligent people are familiar with them - but
           | whenever I see them brought up they get casually brushed off
           | with comments such as yours. I can't see how they're
           | categorically different than any other set of problems.
        
             | toolz wrote:
             | How could intellect, or the ability to reason and
             | understand things ever be a problem connecting socially? If
             | it's a problem, then it's not intellect but rather a lack
             | of something. I would suggest it's a lack of intellect, or
             | the lack of understanding the people around you and being
             | able to find common threads of interest. This isn't a
             | problem of high intellect. Everyone has absolute loads of
             | things in common with every other human on this planet. If
             | you can't connect with another human, it's not because of
             | high intellect.
        
               | gizmo wrote:
               | Many intelligent people like having intelligent
               | conversations. The kind of conversations where they learn
               | new perspectives and where ideas can be challenged. If
               | those conversations are not possible you get stuck making
               | small talk, which is not all that satisfying.
        
               | johnfn wrote:
               | > How could intellect, or the ability to reason and
               | understand things ever be a problem connecting socially?
               | 
               | Really? You don't think that intelligence has multiple
               | components - raw intelligence, social intelligence, etc?
               | And that you could in theory be good at one but not at
               | the other?
        
               | toolz wrote:
               | Sure, but analytical intelligence surely doesn't get in
               | the way of social intelligence I wouldn't think. So my
               | statement holds in that case where you lack some type of
               | intelligence.
               | 
               | I can't see any reason that someone who is really
               | intelligent at technical things couldn't be just as
               | socially intelligent. They probably just don't have as
               | much practice with social environments when compared to
               | technical problems.
        
             | rainonmoon wrote:
             | Those aren't problems with intelligence, they're "problems"
             | (insofar as they are problems, debatable) with things like
             | social anxiety, inability or unwillingness to read social
             | cues, superiority complexes (or inferiority complexes) etc.
             | None of these are intrinsic to having an enormous capacity
             | to learn, as multitudes of smart and charismatic people
             | will attest. Part of this is also a matter of self-
             | perception. Hey, lots of not very smart people also like to
             | talk about their topics of interest beyond the appropriate
             | span of patience. Plenty of them worry about that tendency
             | as much as those burdened with Promethean intellect as
             | well; plenty of them don't.
        
               | johnfn wrote:
               | You really don't think there's a _single_ problem that
               | might arise when someone were to have a large capacity
               | for learning? I mean, sure, perhaps these problems aren
               | 't _unique_ to people with higher intelligence. And
               | perhaps they 're _correlated_ with other parameters, like
               | social anxiety, etc. But surely becoming more intelligent
               | can exacerbate these types of problems, no?
               | 
               | I still find the behavior odd. If someone says "I feel
               | awkward around people because I'm short" no one responds
               | with "that's not a problem with being short, that's just
               | social anxiety". But when someone says "I feel awkward
               | around people because I'm smart" suddenly everyone has an
               | issue.
        
             | mensetmanusman wrote:
             | That's why it's not then intelligent that rule the world,
             | it's the sociopaths.
        
         | wehnsdaefflae wrote:
         | Not crazy. Same with me. My mom always tells me how much nicer
         | it is talking with me when I'm hungover.
        
         | colordrops wrote:
         | https://www.reddit.com/r/hangovereffect
         | 
         | https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7nakg/what-is-the-hangover-...
        
           | ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
           | Wow! This comment:
           | 
           | "Alex, 30, lives in New York City. He says he has depression,
           | anxiety and undiagnosed ADHD. His experiences sound similar
           | to Dylan's, with a heavy night of drinking making way for a
           | newfound sense of self. "I was calm, empathetic, emotional,
           | not anxious," he says. "
           | 
           | Is similar to me, even live in nyc and a similar age
        
         | dannyobrien wrote:
         | There was a whole subreddit trying to explore why the people in
         | it felt more comfortable and effective when hungover. Someone
         | else may have the link -- with the API locked down, my usual
         | app, Apollo, to find things like this on Reddit no longer
         | works, and Google assumes I want a hangover cure for the search
         | terms I tried.
        
           | dannyobrien wrote:
           | Aha! The answer was further down in this thread:
           | https://www.reddit.com/r/hangovereffect/
        
         | nostromo wrote:
         | I prefer my husband's company when he's tired because when he's
         | well rested he can be "too much" -- his energy level, his
         | anxiousness, his sense of humor, are all amplified, sometimes
         | to an annoying degree.
         | 
         | I've noticed this with other guys that just need to chill out a
         | bit when socializing -- especially tech folks.
         | 
         | It's more about energy level than smartness.
         | 
         | No need to be hungover -- maybe just relax a bit, take things
         | slower, talk less, go on fewer (or no) tangents, etc., and you
         | might achieve the same result.
        
           | wjholden wrote:
           | This is a really interesting perspective. I wonder: does
           | intense exercise achieve the same outcome? Fasting? Low-sugar
           | diet?
        
             | drekipus wrote:
             | Meditation would be the big one. It's an intentional "go
             | slow" mentality
        
           | ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
           | It might be energy level, I have wondered whether I am overly
           | caffeinated and thats where its coming from. But youre right,
           | theres a "jumpiness". I do think my general lifestyle (many
           | hours of programming) primes my brain for a certain way of
           | working. If I stop coding, and for instance hike all the
           | time, my suspicion is this would go away to some degree.
        
           | anthomtb wrote:
           | > maybe just relax a bit, take things slower
           | 
           | I agree with what you are saying about energy levels but take
           | issue with these suggestions. How does an inherently anxious
           | and energetic person "just relax" and "take things slowly"? I
           | mean, the phrase "just relax" generates (for a younger
           | version of me) a thought bubble that would read: I thought I
           | was relaxed!!
           | 
           | > talk less, go on fewer (or no) tangents
           | 
           | What's worse, someone babbling about something they're
           | excited about? Or sitting in awkward silence because they're
           | mentally keeping score of who's saying more words in the
           | conversation?
           | 
           | Again, I am 100% with you on the excess energy levels making
           | someone annoying. I am just looking for actionable, less
           | generic suggestions. To bring it back to the start of your
           | post:
           | 
           | > I prefer my husband's company when he's tired
           | 
           | How does your husband get tired enough to be tolerable?
        
         | bheadmaster wrote:
         | _You see, -burp- Morty, grandpa is wayyy too smart. I am the
         | smartest man in the universe, Morty, and that sucks, because of
         | the loneliness of nobody ever being able to understand my
         | thoughts. Do you know how -burp- lucky you are, Mor-Morty, that
         | you 're as dumb as a rock? Do you how luck you are to be
         | surrounded by people who have the same IQ as you, Morty? Yeah,
         | you're lucky, because to you that is an advantage. You can lead
         | some stupid conversation with some stupid girls and enjoy
         | yourself. Grandpa cannot have that, Morty. That-that is -burp-
         | not a luxury the smartest man in the universe can have. So I
         | drink, to make myself stupid, so I can endure this
         | psychological torture called a conversation with _you_._
        
         | rpastuszak wrote:
         | > alcohol removes that to a large degree
         | 
         | Sounds like a crutch. What you describe here is a fairly common
         | response by people suffering from social anxiety.
         | 
         | I'm not implying that's you, but it seems like you have the
         | capacity to act the same way without booze so it might be worth
         | to observe how and what you feel when that happens.
        
       | blast wrote:
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVFe9ungqtk
        
       | motohagiography wrote:
       | I used to think that a drunk was someone who would drink to ease
       | a burden of shame. As I got older what changed is I developed
       | compassion for them. It impairs judgment - of oneself, and of
       | others; for better, or for worse.
        
       | Blahah wrote:
       | Drinking slows down my brain and reduces the number of threads
       | running in parallel. Sometimes very useful to enable normal-
       | passing interaction in social environments. Or just to be able to
       | focus. Lots of people with ADHD drink to achieve a more single
       | threaded experience.
       | 
       | Edit to add: I don't meant to encourage drinking as a tool for
       | managing ADHD. It works but it's a blunt and dangerous tool. If
       | you're at that point, you'll absolutely love the results you get
       | from the healthier strategies: Understanding yourself; developing
       | a suite of tools that don't involve a slippery slope; and
       | curating your social and physical environment carefully.
        
         | yamazakiwi wrote:
         | I'd add that I've done this in a the past and the main issue
         | with treating ADHD with alcohol for me was the weight gain.
        
         | fisherjeff wrote:
         | Took me way too many years to understand this
        
         | giraffe_lady wrote:
         | Untreated or late diagnosed ADHD people are ridiculously
         | overrepresented in drug & alcohol recovery programs. It's
         | honestly chilling and it prevents me from taking this in the
         | probably more lighthearted spirit that was intended.
        
           | com2kid wrote:
           | Fun fact! Over 50 percent of people with untreated ADHD will
           | have problems with substance abuse at some point in their
           | life!
           | 
           | Oh wait, that isn't fun at all.
           | 
           | ADHD is real and untreated it can (and often does) destroy
           | lives.
           | 
           | (Also: People with untreated ADHD have 3x the gen-pop rate of
           | car accidents!)
        
         | TheEzEzz wrote:
         | Interesting analogy. I feel like I talk and think faster when
         | I'm drunk but am also more focused and can hold less in my
         | mind. I'm wondering if it's because I'm switching into single
         | threaded mode instead of multi-threaded mode, and that single
         | thread is actually faster, but more limited.
        
       | siliconc0w wrote:
       | If you're a habitual drinker - try not drinking for a month to
       | see if the habit just stops. I stopped to do an experiment on my
       | sleep and biomarkers and haven't found the urge to continue
       | (still drink socially but I used to have a whiskey after dinner
       | pretty reliably). For me it was pretty clearly just to destress
       | and have something to sip on in front of TV. I switched to a non-
       | caffeinated tea+honey+lemon which might event help with sleep
       | rather than disturb it.
       | 
       | Kinda basic psychology but it's helpful to just put the bottles
       | away in an a cabinet - if I don't see them I don't even think,
       | "oh - I could go for a drink". The difference is expending the
       | willpower to not drink vs not to even think to drink.
        
       | rythmshifter wrote:
       | "He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of
       | being a man."
        
         | naughtyAI wrote:
         | [dead]
        
       | sublinear wrote:
       | Wow this reads like something from the prohibition era. It's not
       | just possible, but common to drink responsibly. The pain and
       | dissonance has more to do with immaturity than the booze itself.
       | Not everyone who drinks turns into a wannabe Socrates or
       | Caligula.
        
         | bandrami wrote:
         | It's possible but it's also a relatively new idea. In Tolstoy's
         | time anybody who wasn't a teetotaler was pretty much drinking
         | until they passed out, every day. Military rations included a
         | daily gallon of beer or quart of distilled liquor.
        
       | glonq wrote:
       | One of the reasons why I don't drink is that _I like being me_.
       | Specifically...
       | 
       | - I like who I am when I'm sober, and don't expect that I would
       | like 'drunk me'.
       | 
       | - I like being in full control over what I experience and how I
       | experience it.
       | 
       | - I also enjoy remembering (and not regretting) those
       | experiences.
        
         | Quekid5 wrote:
         | This meant with NO JUDGMENT WHATSOEVER, but I'm curious:
         | 
         | > ... and don't expect that I would like 'drunk me'.
         | 
         | Have you ever tried being drunk? I wouldn't recommend it if
         | you're fine the way you are, but OTOH, I think people don't
         | _actually_ understand unless they 've tried it.
         | 
         | (I know that's kind of shitty, but ... that's life.)
        
           | yamazakiwi wrote:
           | Most people I know that say the whole "I like being in
           | control" have only drank a few times (maybe bad experiences)
           | but like the idea of not drinking so they promote this
           | narrative in their head. It's an excuse so they can
           | compartmentalize drinking into the "Now I don't have to care
           | about this because it's bad for my physical health anyway"
           | box.
           | 
           | Really it's just an easy excuse that doesn't need to be true
           | because the fact remains that this person doesn't want to be
           | a person who drinks and most won't question it.
        
         | oceanplexian wrote:
         | > I like being in full control over what I experience and how I
         | experience it.
         | 
         | I would argue you like the illusion of being in control, not
         | that you are actually in control of anything.
         | 
         | Some of the greatest decisions of my life were made after a few
         | drinks (Such as booking flights to other countries, hooking up
         | with people, making lifelong friends). Sometimes our rational,
         | thinking minds aren't as smart as they think they are, and a
         | measured amount of unpredictability can make life better. Of
         | course it's a double edged sword, and has a dark side, but
         | things would be pretty uninteresting if you never had any
         | regrets.
        
           | t09i209ba893 wrote:
           | >I would argue you like the illusion of being in control, not
           | that you are actually in control of anything.
           | 
           | Could you elaborate about not how you aren't really any more
           | in control when sober? I feel that you're making an
           | interesting argument, but I don't really share your
           | perspective well enough to understand what you mean.
           | 
           | My aversion to alcohol largely comes from wanting my best
           | judgement intact in order to better survive complex
           | situations. When you talk about the positives of taking more
           | risks, my immediate response is that you should learn to take
           | more risks when sober, rather than dulling yourself so you
           | blindly stumble into them. But I also think I'm not fully
           | appreciating your point.
        
           | yamazakiwi wrote:
           | Yes, and there is also a distinct difference of self control
           | between a buzzed/drunk experience, and one where you are
           | absolutely annihilated.
        
           | vorpalhex wrote:
           | To add, your subconcious mind seems to be more in the drivers
           | seat in many situations, variations of drunkenness and
           | hungover among them.
           | 
           | It's worth calling out that meditation can (sometimes,
           | depending on the form) lead to a similar headspace.
        
         | yamazakiwi wrote:
         | For the sake of contrast to your post, I present my terrible
         | personality.
         | 
         | When I'm sober I feel simultaneously manic and under-
         | stimulated. I tend to exhibit uncooperative or argumentative
         | behavior. This leads me to avoid others and isolate because I
         | don't want them to get mad or dislike me. I have a hard time
         | shutting my mouth. I'm so tired of playing the game of
         | socializing, most people have nothing interesting or
         | unpredictable to say or talk about.
         | 
         | When I'm drunk, I'm actually nice and can lie to kick it. I'm
         | genuinely more loving, forgiving, and fun-loving.
         | 
         | - I like who I am when I'm drunk, and I don't like sober me
         | 
         | - I don't feel a loss of control and my experiences are better
         | when I am able to let go of pretension and disappointment.
         | 
         | - I remember everything that happens to me, at worst I forget a
         | non-important conversation
        
         | tester756 wrote:
         | You're sure you don't have something to hide and
         | 
         | you're worried that alcohol would make you show it? :P
        
       | belfalas wrote:
       | "When a man is sober he is ashamed of what seems all right when
       | he is drunk. In these words we have the essential underlying
       | cause prompting men to resort to stupefiers. People resort to
       | them either to escape feeling ashamed after having done something
       | contrary to their consciences, or to bring themselves beforehand
       | into a state in which they can commit actions contrary to
       | conscience, but to which their animal nature prompts them.
       | 
       | A man when sober is ashamed to go after a prostitute, ashamed to
       | steal, ashamed to kill. A drunken man is ashamed of none of these
       | things, and therefore if a man wishes to do something his
       | conscience condemns he stupefies himself."
       | 
       | - Tolstoy (from the article)
        
         | circuit8 wrote:
         | This is the core of the issue. The thing is that in modern
         | western societies shame is placed upon many activities that are
         | normal and necessary for a human to enjoy a good life. It is
         | shameful in many places for a person to sing, dance, and to
         | express their true emotions. So we intoxicate ourselves, in
         | order to escape from the overly rigid social conditioning we
         | have all internalised.
        
         | kgwxd wrote:
         | Seems to only be focusing on mean drunks. I've never had the
         | desire to do any of those things, drunk or sober, and I'm drunk
         | almost every night.
        
       | dizzydes wrote:
       | Inhibitions are inhibiting, so its mighty fine to lose them once
       | in a while.
       | 
       | Lose them continually and there's no life left.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | bcatanzaro wrote:
       | I find the description of alcohol as something that "stupefies"
       | rather reductive. People are often louder, more expressive and
       | more interesting when they've had a drink. The opposite of
       | catatonic. Now it's true that overdosing on alcohol is poisonous
       | but most people don't drink to the point of stupification
       | regularly.
       | 
       | I am interested in why Tolstoy feels the need to be so reductive.
       | Sounds to me like he might also be "hiding from himself what he
       | doesn't wish to see". Which is a human activity so I don't
       | begrudge him his own chosen blind spots, I just think it's
       | interesting and I'm wondering if he is being fully honest with
       | himself about why he hates alcohol so much.
        
       | ProllyInfamous wrote:
       | People ~~do~~ abuse drugs to escape seemingly-insurmountable
       | problem(s) in their life.
       | 
       | "The opposite of addiction is connection" ----Gabriel Mate
       | 
       | I have been "clean" from a past life for 14 years. Every day is a
       | challenge.
        
         | wouldbecouldbe wrote:
         | yeah you can be perfectly happy and just really enjoy a beer.
         | If dosed & timed properly it amplifies happiness & relaxation.
         | 
         | Problem after too much the body just craves more.
        
         | shortcake27 wrote:
         | Eh, I don't think it's that deep. I take drugs because it feels
         | good and I have a good time, so the risks are worth it. I have
         | zero interest maximising my lifespan at the expense of
         | enjoyment. I'll never understand why the general population is
         | so hell-bent on preventing people from enjoying their own life.
        
           | UniverseHacker wrote:
           | Alcohol and other drugs feel good and allow you to have a
           | good time by allowing you to escape negative emotional
           | experiences and just enjoy the moment: fear, social anxiety,
           | trauma. Without those negative feelings, you would already
           | feel good, and the alcohol would lose it's appeal.
        
             | Arn_Thor wrote:
             | No, it's not so simple. Alcohol changes the brain in ways
             | that affect dopamine and endorphins. You literally feel
             | pleasure and happiness... unless and until you've had too
             | much of course
        
             | mvdtnz wrote:
             | No, you're overthinking it. I'm perfectly happy when I'm
             | sober - I have a nice house, a great relationship, a happy
             | family and tons of hobbies. I am in no way crippled by
             | fear, social anxiety or trauma.
             | 
             | Drinking with my friends makes me happy in different ways.
             | Alcohol doesn't lose its appeal just because I'm happy
             | while I'm sober.
        
             | OkayPhysicist wrote:
             | You're confusing "drinking as a coping mechanism" and
             | "drinking for recreation". You know what rich college
             | students don't have a lot of? "fear, social anxiety, and
             | trauma". Know what they do a lot of? booze, sex, and drugs.
             | You show me the most content, meditation-and-
             | philosophizing-on-a-Friday-night person, and I'll show you
             | someone who could be having an even better time on MDMA.
             | 
             | Booze, sex, and drugs are just life's cheat codes for
             | giving you more dopamine. The person with fear is the one
             | who is so terrified of judgement by society, too betrothed
             | to the idea that they'd be _sinning_ to actually enjoy
             | themselves, that they deny themselves extremely fun
             | experiences.
        
           | hadlock wrote:
           | Because support costs for drug addicts have tremendous
           | support costs for society. Prohibition was a genuine attempt
           | at solving the problem once and for all, but for reasons that
           | are clear now, didn't work.
        
           | kibwen wrote:
           | There's an important distinction to be made between
           | recreational drug use and habitual drug use, though the line
           | can be blurry. For individuals who are predisposed to start
           | at recreational and end up at habitual, it can be better to
           | abstain altogether.
        
             | ProllyInfamous wrote:
             | This is a really good response. I definitely "have an
             | addictive personality."
        
           | Etheryte wrote:
           | Send your regards to Nixon and his public relations team for
           | that last part (see
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_drugs).
        
           | mensetmanusman wrote:
           | Maybe you are the exception.
        
             | shortcake27 wrote:
             | In which regard? That I take drugs, that I favour enjoyment
             | over longevity, or that I don't dictate other people's
             | lives?
        
           | ProllyInfamous wrote:
           | I changed "people do drugs" to "people abuse drugs" to help
           | encompass the good point you bring up. I want you to safely
           | enjoy your life =D
        
         | nkuttler wrote:
         | > People do drugs to escape seemingly-insurmountable problem(s)
         | in their life.
         | 
         | Some people
        
         | skhm wrote:
         | congratulations on 14
        
           | ProllyInfamous wrote:
           | Thanks man! I just got my teeth fully-restored (implants)
           | from all the teeth-grinding that having-been such-a-fool was.
           | I've cried for days (teefs are so important!)... I can chew
           | food again.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | psychphysic wrote:
         | I drink because I'm boring sober, I don't drink cause I'm an
         | ass when I do.
        
       | mynonameaccount wrote:
       | Stupid and ignorant is a valid philosophy, mostly practiced in
       | the US
        
         | jrflowers wrote:
         | This is a good point about the famous American author Leo
         | Tolstoy
        
           | naughtyAI wrote:
           | [dead]
        
       | victor9000 wrote:
       | Mainly to distract myself as a way to destress
        
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