[HN Gopher] Microsoft's ex-VP of HR says you should leave a comp...
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Microsoft's ex-VP of HR says you should leave a company if you get
put on a PIP
Author : myth_drannon
Score : 31 points
Date : 2023-06-28 18:29 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.businessinsider.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.businessinsider.com)
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| This is actually terrible advice, but I wouldn't expect a guy
| that earned millions a year to understand why, because it's not
| relevant to him: Quitting makes you unable to claim unemployment
| in most countries.
|
| If you are put on a PIP, the right course of action is to:
|
| 1. Do the bare minimum to not be fired for job abandonment,
|
| 2. Apply to new jobs,
|
| 3. Let them fire you at the end.
| prepend wrote:
| This sounds like horrible advice for anyone who wants to excel
| at their work.
|
| From a management perspective, 1 and 2 are no good and will
| result in 3.
|
| Programmers I know are pretty good and have multiple
| opportunities. If you suck and just want to hang on, then you
| could do this.
|
| But if you're good, then it's best to avoid a PIP. Or if you
| get on one, figure out why and correct it. Or, easiest, just
| take one of the other offers and work somewhere where you're in
| better sync with management.
|
| Of course, you'd never want to quit without a new job lined up.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I've never been PIP'd, but if I were, I would absolutely leave
| the company.
|
| If I were put there for good reason, then the fact that I'm
| performing poorly and wasn't able to correct before management
| felt the need to address it is a pretty much ironclad indication
| that I'm a poor fit there.
|
| If I were put there for a bad reason -- well, that speaks for
| itself. I'm not wanted.
|
| In either case, whether I quit or not, my days at the company are
| clearly numbered. Better to get out right away than to suffer the
| humiliation of remaining.
| 71a54xd wrote:
| My assumption generally is that PIP is a result of "HR
| engineering" - it's basically a legal way to bully someone out of
| the company with the worst case scenario being you maximize their
| productivity and burn them out right before they might've been
| fired anyway.
|
| There's also longstanding evidence that Amazon uses PIP's just to
| recapture locked RSU shares after bad financial quarters.
| Basically, have a bad financial quarter, just tell managers they
| have to stack rank and fire a few more employees than usual.
| lockhouse wrote:
| You say this as though it's some evil corporate trick. Although
| sometimes they are abused, these PIPs are often deserved.
|
| I work in an organization where it is very difficult to fire
| marginal employees and while job security is great, the poor
| performers really drag down everyone else's morale. PIPs if
| utilized properly can be a great way to rehabilitate these
| employees, even if they ultimately move on to other teams.
| JJMcJ wrote:
| > burn them out right before they might've been fired anyway
|
| If you're offered the choice of PIP or severance, it's usually
| best to take the severance.
|
| > after bad financial quarters
|
| It's a typical way to lower staffing levels without an official
| layoff. Instead of letting bottom 5% go, make it the bottom
| 10%. Where "bottom" can have multiple meanings.
| bithavoc wrote:
| I had to google it, PIP=Performance Improvement Plan
| Qem wrote:
| Sometimes PIP=Personnel Intoxication Plan as well, when
| employers want to force employees toward increasing
| productivity by taking a dive to draw a diagnose and recipes
| for attention disorder stimulants.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/us/workers-seeking-produc...
| lazzurs wrote:
| Duh.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| PIPs as constructive termination is an important realization,
| yes.
|
| Of course, the more this is recognized (especially if it becomes
| recognized socially enough that the legal system recognizes it),
| the more companies will need something to replace PIPs as
| "constructive termination that we can get away with without
| consequence."
| realitythreek wrote:
| What's the reason PIPs are a problem exactly? Who loses?
|
| Let's say you actually are a bad fit, either due to effort or
| ability, you could try and work through it as a learning
| experience and leave when you have the opportunity.
|
| If it's not due to any fault of your own, it gives you time to
| job search.
|
| The company basically gets an excuse to let you go at some
| point in the future.
| shove wrote:
| Slow news day?
| charles_f wrote:
| > "why did you leave your previous role?" I would suggest you
| say, "it was a situation where I was unable to excel." Resist the
| temptation to go into details or to disparage your former manager
| or company.
|
| Or just make some shit up no reason for you to start being honest
| in a situation where your future employer will likely start by
| lying to you about the state of things as well
| JohnFen wrote:
| I usually go with "I was no longer a good fit there."
| amf12 wrote:
| Why not "it wasn't a good fit for me"? The first one kinda
| implies they didn't find you a fit? Not sure if I am reading
| too much into it.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I was paraphrasing. How I actually say it depends on the
| circumstances and the personality of the one interviewing
| me.
|
| But you're right, you need to be careful of implying things
| you don't want to imply. And if you've worked there for
| more than a year or so, you have to be prepared for the
| natural followup question "What changed to make the fit no
| longer good?"
|
| But the key thing is that you aren't being deceptive,
| you're just giving the most general answer possible. So the
| followup question is probably not a stumper.
|
| For instance, when I interviewed where I currently work, I
| gave this response for why I left my prior job, and got the
| followup question. My response to that was the honest --
| but still vague enough -- answer "the company had been
| acquired, and I found the new management style difficult to
| excel in."
| shaftway wrote:
| I was put on a PIP at Google in my first year. I worked my way
| out of it (it was mostly a perception-of-work thing, not an
| actual-work thing). And then for other reasons I transferred out
| about 6 months later. I think this helped a lot in getting that
| off my back. The new manager, new lead, and new team knew
| basically nothing about it so it was far easier to shake it off.
|
| Another colleague was put on a PIP after being on the team for 2
| years. They made a big effort to go around to all of the leads
| (including me) and ask for advice on getting out from under it.
| They did (but kind of via a technicality) and stayed on the team.
| It was obvious how they were passed over for project after
| project and ended up only doing maintenance work until eventually
| being laid off.
|
| Yeah, if you get PIPed, at least leave the team, if not the
| company.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I totally agree. It's a major indicator that you're not on the
| same page with your manager, at the very least. The outcome is
| unlikely to be great, so use it as an opportunity to make your
| departure more on your own terms.
|
| Also, I've met more than a few managers over the years that never
| use a PIP unless they've already given up on the employee. It's a
| checkbox at that point to make HR happy, there is going to be no
| possible redemption.
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(page generated 2023-06-28 23:02 UTC)