[HN Gopher] The best place to drink is the emptiest bar in the city
___________________________________________________________________
The best place to drink is the emptiest bar in the city
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 243 points
Date : 2023-06-26 12:21 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| dang wrote:
| This is one of those rare articles that makes a good point but
| also is a pleasure to read, way beyond its point.
| jen729w wrote:
| Yeah this made me wistful. I'd fly back to DC now for a few
| hours in the bar at the Hyatt. The lady there knew how to pour
| a measure of Scotch.
|
| There's something about appreciating a space for what it _just
| is_ that you recognise as you get older. Not for appreciating
| the trendy, or the popular, but just for noticing _a place_ ,
| the characters, the shape. A good hotel bar has that in spades.
| erlich wrote:
| Is there some kind of app/website that lays out all these kind of
| risks you face in life?
| asplake wrote:
| Totally relate. Aged about 30 I lost almost all hearing on one
| side due to an ear infection. I now find noisy places very
| disorientating, to the point sometimes that I feel physically
| unwell.
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| I have totally normal hearing but I also crave these kind of
| places. I don't know why. There's just something about having
| to scream at someone to be heard that I find vomit worthy. Even
| to the point that when coworkers go to a bar that is a yeller I
| simply and literally just turn right back around and walk out
| now.
| deepserket wrote:
| Maybe "crave" is not the right word, I'm not able to
| understand how you can desire something that you find vomit
| worthy.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| And that's just fine. Too many people make themselves go to
| places like that to be "in", even though it goes against what
| they want or what's best for them. Same with e.g. open
| offices.
|
| But others thrive in environments, and that's fine too.
| TL;DR, to each their own, but nobody should force the one
| onto the other, or themselves. I mean yeah, on occasion,
| exception, compromise, have to have been there to know, that
| kinda thing.
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| The noise of modern life is a significant source of stress
| which is proven to cause serious diseases like heart
| diseases, diabetes and chronic ilnesses. You can research
| this further. I'm also avoiding sound consciously after
| learning these, and I know now that the sense of stress I
| experience in city center, malls etc. is mostly due to noise.
| Though crowds and big objects moving at very high speeds very
| near to you (cars) are also stress-inducing imho. Your
| subconscious is just warning you that this life with this
| much sound isn't healthy at all.
| nerdponx wrote:
| Same. I hate loud bars. I'm there to enjoy my drink and chat
| with my friends, not experience sensory overload. I have
| metal concerts for when I want a lot of noise.
| cactusplant7374 wrote:
| I like going to a brewery in Ecuador in the morning or mid-day.
| Most Ecuadorians eat late and party even later so I usually have
| the whole place to myself. I usually sit inside because the
| ambiance is better and the noise level is lower. Also, you can
| avoid some of the smoke by sitting inside.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Drinking shrinks your brain, apparently.
| augustk wrote:
| I always keep an eye on articles like these:
|
| https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.2215253120
|
| "Reprogramming by drug-like molecules leads to regeneration of
| cochlear hair cell-like cells in adult mice"
| kieckerjan wrote:
| I love hotel bars, and not just for the quiet. It is the
| "liminality" that the author mentions, not just in space and time
| but also in the social dimension: a place that is neither private
| nor public, but a bit of both. Places where you can be friends
| (or at least get drunk) with a total stranger for one evening.
|
| When I am in a big city, alone or with company, I try to hit the
| bar of my hotel at that specific lull between daytime obligations
| and the night on the town. I order a Martini to test the
| proficiency of the bartender and make some smalltalk or eavesdrop
| on the conversations while I wait for the evening to arrive.
| There is comfort in these vacant but well-delineated stretches of
| time, and hotelbars are perfect for that.
| constantly wrote:
| A martini only has two ingredients. If you're trying to test a
| bartender you might consider doing something like a frozen pina
| colada or a gin fizz.
| schwartzworld wrote:
| In most bars a frozen Pina colada also only has two
| ingredients: rum and Pina colada mix.
|
| A martini is deceptive in its simplicity. The lack of
| flavorful ingredients like lime juice or coconut milk means
| technique and balance are more important, not less.
| kgwxd wrote:
| Or maybe just drop the pretentious snobbery all together.
| FuriouslyAdrift wrote:
| A drop of bitters can make a HUGE difference. There's also
| many many variations in style and substance. (I prefer a
| Vesper that's actually close to the original recipe with
| Tempus Fugit Kina l'Aero d'Or or an upside down Martini with
| a vermouth as the main and gin as the additive)
| jghn wrote:
| Negronis only have three ingredients but make for a good
| bartender test for exactly this reason. a) do they even know
| what it is? b) do they know the 3 ingredients? c) Do they
| know the correct proportions?
|
| It's not like a martini which is a term that can mean just
| about anything from person to person.
| ravenstine wrote:
| Agreed! I love negronis, but have found that they can
| easily be screwed up. I've had more barely-adequate
| negronis than ones that were good or even worth drinking,
| but they're my favorite cocktail when they're good. They're
| just uncommon enough that many bartenders forget exactly
| what's in them.
| jghn wrote:
| I picked this up from a local food writer.
|
| One of the categories in which he bins bartenders is
| "they don't know what it is, but don't try to wing it &
| when I tell them they make it correctly" and he views
| that as an acceptable outcome as well. If they can manage
| to make 1/3 each of 3 ingredients it means he can trust
| them to follow instructions on other drinks as well.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| A _proper_ martini has only one real ingredient. The other is
| virtual.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| I've said it (quoted it?) before and I'll say it again: A
| bone dry martini is just a glass of cold gin.
|
| A martini requires vermouth. Drinking cold gin is a fine
| thing to do, but you needn't confuse the issue by calling
| it a martini.
| OJFord wrote:
| If we're not mixing them, I'd pick the vermouth any day
| personally.
| twic wrote:
| The Martini you are thinking of definitely has two
| ingredients - you couldn't make it without ice.
| iamthepieman wrote:
| I'm pretty sure that quote from Churchill about how to make
| a martini is apocryphal.
|
| "I would like to observe the vermouth from across the room
| while I drink my martini."
|
| Or "pour the gin and nod in the direction of France"
| bamfly wrote:
| I can only imagine this is the actual preference of two
| types of people:
|
| 1) Those who've never had a good martini made with high-
| quality, fresh vermouth, carefully chosen to complement the
| gin (or vodka, for that variant) being used.
|
| 2) Folks who've adopted the preference not due to genuinely
| preferring straight gin to an _actually good_ martini, but
| because they 've decided it's somehow more hard-core,
| classy, or old-school, due to Churchill et al. (I wouldn't
| say it's any of those, but to each their own--if anything,
| the Churchill thing reads to me more as an alcoholism joke
| than serious advice)
|
| I would agree, however, that given a decent-or-better gin
| and cheap vermouth that was opened six months ago and has
| been sitting in the back of a cabinet since, I'd rather
| have the gin neat or over ice. Both primary ingredients
| need to be _good_ to make a tasty martini--otherwise, sure,
| why bother, and yeah, the vast majority of bars probably
| don 't go through enough good vermouth to justify stocking
| it at all (let alone multiple kinds to pair thoughtfully
| with various gins) so many places just _can 't_ make a good
| martini. I certainly wouldn't judge a bartender's skill at
| anything but a very-fancy bar based on how good a martini
| they make. It's not a drink with an acceptable cheap
| version, IMO--there's nothing for the cheapness to hide
| behind.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| I'm in category 1 personally. I'll drink straight
| vermouth (if it's good) as an aperitif. But so many
| people seem to agree with Churchill I find it funny.
| mikrl wrote:
| It would take a true maestro to make a damn good martini but
| even the basic AF store bought pina colada mix tastes good.
|
| Getting into tiki cocktails, I've never had a bad one because
| it is literally impossible to mess up fruit juices and large
| quantities of rum and other spirits.
| chipotle_coyote wrote:
| I don't know -- I suppose I'd agree that even a "bad" rum-
| and-fruit-juice cocktail is almost always still drinkable.
| But there's a wide difference between a Mai Tai or a Zombie
| made at a tiki bar following the classic recipes and one
| made at an Applebee's. :)
| twic wrote:
| My standard test cocktails are a Vieux Carre, and a Sidecar,
| but i ask for it to be less sour than usual. The former is
| moderately complicated, and tastes wrong if it's not bang on.
| The latter is simple, but tests their ability to deviate from
| a script.
|
| (also, standard-ratio Sidecars are an abomination)
| inerte wrote:
| Tangential, but most bartenders would say a Daiquiri is how
| you test another bartender. I think I first read that in
| "Regarding Cocktails" but a quick search does bring
| interesting confirmation https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&
| q=bartender%20test%20dai...
| 0xffff2 wrote:
| The daiquiri is an interesting one because it will weed out
| easily 90% of bartenders without even receiving a drink.
| The number of times I have been told "sorry, we don't have
| a blender" is a source of great amusement to me.
| zeekaran wrote:
| I recently ordered a daiquiri from someone who didn't
| know how to make one. I received a delicious drink served
| in a coupe, but the weird thing was that it had a large
| spherical ice cube in it as well.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| Yes, but like the best simple recipes, the skill lies in
| picking the right two and using them in the right proportion.
|
| Gins and vermouths both vary a lot in flavor, and a martini
| is a drink that's all about the subtleties of how they
| interact. If you get an olive or three in your martini,
| there's also the element of the olive brine. That could be an
| incidental amount from the surface of the olives, or an
| amount added beyond that, at which point the drink is
| properly called a dirty martini.
|
| A martini is the perfect test of a bartender's skill, just as
| a plain cheese pizza is the perfect test of a pizza maker's
| skill.
| constantly wrote:
| Agree with cheese pizza, and will add plain cheeseburger.
| But with a martini one normally specifies the ingredients
| (or at least the base) as the orderer, otherwise it's just
| well alcohol. So I would normally say something like "vodka
| martini" and they would give me whatever is on well with
| whatever the vermouth is, and I guess olive juice if I
| specified. Otherwise I'd order a "X Brand vodka/gin
| martini" and they'd do the same but with the specified
| brand. So this isn't really helpful to determine anything
| about the bartender. Unless you're telling them to surprise
| you, but then you're likely just testing if their
| preferences match yours.
|
| Furthermore, the recipe specifies the proportions. Whatever
| ounces or whatever ingredient. I would argue that them
| deciding the proportions outside of the recipe is bad.
|
| I think your romanticizing martinis too much and reading
| too much into them. Martinis are good btw, just saying
| they're the most basic drink.
| genghisjahn wrote:
| Your last line reminds me of this scene regarding a cheese
| burger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bjDrg5q7ZY&ab_chan
| nel=Movie...
| ballenf wrote:
| Vanilla ice cream. Can't hide behind overpowering flavor
| distractions.
| kieckerjan wrote:
| Cheers, mate.
| 7znwjshsus wrote:
| You can only do so much if your ingredients and oven is
| bad. I don't think you can judge the cook in those cases,
| only the restaurant as a whole.
| wrycoder wrote:
| If the ingredients and the oven are bad, a good cook
| fixes that or leaves immediately.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Not everyone has the luxury to die on the hill of
| quality, and we're not talking about safety-critical
| changes to the drinks.
| CyanBird wrote:
| Well then said cook/bartender will be judged by that
| Etheryte wrote:
| I think you strongly overestimate the competence of the
| average barkeep, many are there for the seasonal job or just
| to fill a gap between jobs. Not that there's anything wrong
| with either one of those, but it's good to know beforehand so
| you don't have a drink absolutely butchered. I can't even
| begin to count the times I've been served a "skinny bitch"
| that's just vodka and soda water.
| nl wrote:
| As an example of this I once ordered a margarita in a
| casino bar and the bartender looked up the recipe in a
| book.
| roflc0ptic wrote:
| I like the humility
| xattt wrote:
| It goes to show how much adult life is and will always be
| a middle school dance.
| anthomtb wrote:
| That seems better than dumping a yellow mixture of
| unknown origin over some well tequila.
| [deleted]
| bee_rider wrote:
| How was it?
| newaccount74 wrote:
| > A martini only has two ingredients
|
| I think that's the point :)
|
| Just like you'd test an Italian chef by ordering pasta al
| pomodoro.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| I had a relative who owned a restaurant. One of his tests
| when interviewing a new chef was "Make me an egg."
| I_complete_me wrote:
| My imagined reply - as I am not a chef: "What do you
| think I am? A hen? If you want an egg dish, ask for it.
| An extra word won't hurt you. I can't work with tight
| people, I'm outta here."
| Karellen wrote:
| What sort of response were they looking for with that?
| "How would you like it - boiled, poached, fried,
| scrambled or turned into an omelette? Or a meringue
| maybe?"
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| Think if you're good at cooking the answers become
| obvious. If you're excellent at cooking even more so.
| OJFord wrote:
| GP said a _restaurant_ , not a road-side 'caf'/'diner'.
| They'd be looking to be given something good, whatever
| the candidate wants/comes up with/thinks they can do
| well. e.g. a bad candidate returns literally just a fried
| egg on a plate, a good candidate returns a devilled egg
| neatly presented, say.
| [deleted]
| akvadrako wrote:
| So it's just guessing what the interviewer wants?
|
| As a restaurant customer, I would prefer a fried egg over
| a deviled one.
| OJFord wrote:
| It's doing something technically impressive which a
| fellow domain expert can appreciate whether they'd
| personally order it from a menu or not.
| Symbiote wrote:
| The restaurant owner is interviewing a chef, not a cook.
| Part of the chef's job will be to innovate -- new dishes
| for the menu, small changes to existing dishes when
| customers ask for it or particular ingredients aren't
| available, something completely different when a coeliac
| vegan turns up.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| Exactly. If the chef said "What kind of egg would you
| like?" the chef didn't get the job.
| Karellen wrote:
| I guess that makes sense.
|
| It's weird how different industries work - even if
| they're both creative ones. If a customer under-specifies
| what they want, and I just make what I think will wow
| them rather than what they were thinking of but didn't
| think to tell me, that's a bad job on my part for not
| engaging with them and finding out what they actually
| desired.
| OJFord wrote:
| Not a customer though, an interviewer who asks you how
| you'd go about designing the architecture for an IoT-
| controlled fleet of egg-cracking robots.
|
| You might talk in great detail about SoA design, and the
| interviewer might be hiring for a monolith, but still
| respect the acumen, you could still be a great fit.
|
| It doesn't mean the chef's only going to be cooking
| tasting menus any more than it means the engineer has
| carte blanche over greenfield design or to rewrite an
| existing project.
| pavlov wrote:
| If this were a software engineering interview question,
| it would be five paragraphs long and start with:
|
| "Assume a female Gallus gallus domesticus lays a capsule
| containing an unfertilized ovum..."
| martinflack wrote:
| And the candidate would respond with a Dockerfile that
| says "FROM egg".
| someonewhocar3s wrote:
| [dead]
| gedy wrote:
| Ha yeah and if the 20 year chef asks "what?", then push
| away from the table with a shocked look: "um how long
| have you been cooking again?"
| pavlov wrote:
| "How can you pretend to make a steak when you don't know
| the first thing about protein folding??"
| gedy wrote:
| Writes: "Did not prepare for interview, strong pass"
| tapland wrote:
| That's supposedly common, but as a non-chef I have no
| idea what the expected outcome is :D
| duckmysick wrote:
| Eggs are versatile and require special handling, so egg
| dishes are good for showing both creativity and
| technique. There's a lot to pay attention to: cracking
| eggs, picking cooking vessels and utensils, seasoning,
| plating, texture, how fast you move, etc.
|
| Efficiently making an egg dish that can be served to
| customers would be a pass. The standards depend on the
| restaurant and the chef that does the interview.
| twic wrote:
| A French omelette is a classic interview test for
| restaurant cooks, as touched on here:
|
| https://www.seriouseats.com/classic-french-omelette-
| recipe
| selectodude wrote:
| Rumor has it that every fold on the top of a chefs toque
| signifies one of the ways to cook an egg.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| >In 1903, Auguste Escoffier wrote the essential book for
| French cooking, Guide Culinaire, and outlined 143 ways to
| cook eggs.
|
| https://www.thepaseoclub.com/blog/the-magic-of-eggs
|
| https://archive.org/details/cu31924000610117
| ericbarrett wrote:
| An egg perfectly over-easy is quick and super impressive.
| I've never been able to do it at home without breaking
| the yolk.
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| That's table stakes for a cook. While it has been years
| since I was a line cook, even I can still consistently
| make over easy without issue.
| Lio wrote:
| > _" Make me an egg."_
|
| I'd be reaching for the polystyrene, spray paint and duck
| tape. Possibly, a 3D printer to show my technique is up
| to date.
|
| I suspect I'm far too literal minded for this kind of
| test but then I'm an engineer.
|
| The man wants to _be_ an egg. The customer gets what he
| wants.
| 0xffff2 wrote:
| It's just domain-specific language. This would be clearly
| understood as "prepare me an egg" by anyone receiving the
| question in context.
| listenallyall wrote:
| off-topic, but since we're talking about chefs, please
| take a second to remember Frederic Forrest, who died
| yesterday. Among numerous roles, he played 'Chef' in
| _Apocalypse Now_ , an amazing, iconic, memorable
| performance. "Never get out of the boat."
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Throw the entire egg in a blendtek blender on high for 10
| minutes until it is a frothy soup with no indication of
| the egg shell.
|
| Microwave for 3 minutes.
|
| Add chocolate.
| copperx wrote:
| You're hired. Welcome to Chili's.
| FartyMcFarter wrote:
| Or just like you can test a software engineer by discussing
| basic data structures and how they behave both in theory
| and in practice.
| maxk42 wrote:
| You can learn a lot about an engineer by asking them to
| implement a linked list.
| Karellen wrote:
| Or fizzbuzz
| franga2000 wrote:
| Or test a bartender by ordering a fizzbuzz and see if
| they're a former software engineer who got fed up with
| the crunch and left to go work in a bar (something I
| think all of us have considered at least once).
| copperx wrote:
| It's been a long time since I heard a jwz reference.
| smcameron wrote:
| I think I'm going to start calling a gin and tonic a
| "fizzbuzz".
| wrycoder wrote:
| buzzfizz, I think.
| pavlov wrote:
| Maybe more appropriate for the vodka soda which is
| literally nothing but fizz and buzz.
| galbar wrote:
| I've had so many people tell me that it is unreasonable
| to ask in an interview "What's the difference between an
| array and a set?"... Then I ask how they'd feel about
| reviewing PRs from a person that does not know the
| difference and they mostly of change their minds about
| it.
| jsight wrote:
| To be fair, it does depend on the question. Yours is
| fine.
|
| I've also seen things like "Why would you specify the #
| of elements when initializing an ArrayList in Java?", and
| you just know the person asking is the guy that sprinkles
| magic constants all over his code. And gives negative
| reviews when you don't put random (often relatively
| small) numbers in yours too.
| hluska wrote:
| Or just don't test bartenders? They have bosses who do that
| for you. Did you feel entitled to call up Google and start
| interviewing their engineers the first time you used the
| search engine?
| PheonixPharts wrote:
| A classic martini has _three_ ingredients, though I find
| novice cocktail makers often forget the most important: gin,
| vermouth and _ice water_. If you 've ever made them in bulk
| you immediately realize that you need to add ~20% ice water
| before putting the batch into the freezer (since it isn't
| added in the process of mixing).
|
| The martini may be simple, but it is not easy to make an
| excellent one. It's a very solid test of a bartender's skill
| because, unlike many drinks, ingredients alone cannot carry
| the cocktail. A pina colada for example, is mostly about
| ingredients (are you using a good coconut cream? fresh
| pineapple?) For the martini the chilling and dilution need to
| be just right. This tests the bartender's most important
| skill: mixing. Proper mixing of the beverage is ultimately
| what makes a martini.
|
| In addition, I've had a shocking number of _awful_ martinis
| served to me.
| constantly wrote:
| I am very open to being wrong about the ingredients in a
| martini, so I checked. I can't find any reference to any
| ingredient other than the two mentioned, plus maybe a
| garnish if desired. Ice water is never listed, so it sounds
| like you're having nonstandard martinis, which is totally
| fine but a little unfair to the bartender if it's some
| test. I was thinking that some water does make it into the
| martini as an artifact of the catalyst (ice) used to make
| it cold, but then you seem to reference actively diluting
| it with straight iced water. I think we're probably just
| referencing different drinks, I am specifically referencing
| a "classic martini" from the original post.
|
| I get the sense that this is just a hyper specific hobby of
| yours, so won't begrudge you being exacting to the
| standards you've created. Just like some people really,
| really get off on leather shoes or suits or whatever,
| hobbies are fun.
| MAGZine wrote:
| The cold water making it into the drink as a part of
| dilution is the whole point of using ice and not just
| chilling the ingredients. ice serves two purposes: to
| dilute the cocktail (as water) and to chill the drink.
| both are essential.
|
| if i show up to a bar and you pour me measures of vodka
| and vermouth in a glass without properly diluting it,
| i'll send it back and have a beer instead.
|
| martinis are shockingly easy to fuck up. and this
| conversation is exactly the reason why the martini is a
| good test of a bartender's capability. being a bartender
| is more than putting fixed quantities of ingredients in a
| glass. how do you know when your martini is properly
| diluted, either by shaking or stirring? a good bartender
| will know. a bad bartender will not. a terrible bartender
| won't even realize dilution is crucial.
| ericbarrett wrote:
| Once made friends with a local bartender. Hung out at the
| place a few times chatting and drinking beer. One night I
| was feeling liberated so I ordered a gin martini. She
| must have shaken it for 30 or 40 seconds! It was
| basically flavored ice water, couldn't finish it.
| chrisdhoover wrote:
| The drink is diluted a bit by the ice in the mixing
| glass. It does not show up in the recipe but is an
| essential element. In the book, How's Your Drink? The
| author admonishes the reader not to serve knock out
| drinks that are not sufficiently left in ice long enough
| for some dilution to occur.
| dlgeek wrote:
| The ice water is implicit. It comes from shaking or
| stirring it over ice to chill everything prior to
| serving. Dilution from this process is important for the
| balance of most cocktails.
| jb1991 wrote:
| Coffee also only has two ingredients, beans and water. Maybe
| a third if you got milk. That's it, so it's very easy to make
| good coffee every time.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| Coffee is mostly ingredient however. Good luck doing a good
| coffee with poorly roasted or stale beans while fresh beans
| will give you a proper cup using a press even if you do it
| extremely poorly (in so much as you can even mess up a
| press).
| vanilla_nut wrote:
| Steak has only one ingredient, meat. That's why I make it
| so often, it's impossible to mess it up.
| throw9away6 wrote:
| Steak without salt is gross so it needs 2 at least
| switch007 wrote:
| For me, steak without butter, salt, pepper, garlic and
| thyme is a sad time.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| Substitute ghee for butter and you've got one foot in
| heaven.
| switch007 wrote:
| I totally forgot about ghee despite having a tub in the
| fridge, and using it last time I cooked a steak lol. Good
| shout. It adds a nice nutty flavour if I recall
|
| But butter is only for finishing, to bring out the garlic
| and thyme flavours. I cook it with a bit of oil if I
| finish with butter
| wpm wrote:
| I love ghee, it's like freebasing butter.
| sph wrote:
| I love both. Ghee to fry the steak, butter to baste the
| steak towards the end. Heavenly
| vanilla_nut wrote:
| Nothing wrong with those. But if you buy great meat you
| can grill a steak with absolutely nothing on it and it
| comes out fantastic.
| wcedmisten wrote:
| Wow this was written beautifully!
| hluska wrote:
| I was a bartender when I was young and so please cut the
| bullshit. Bartenders see this kind of shit constantly and it's
| usually a tell that you have low confidence and a really bad
| personality. Confident people who come from money don't care to
| flaunt like this. Whoop dee shit, you are extremely opinionated
| about martinis. You might think it makes you sound like a big
| shot but the opposite is true.
| ravenstine wrote:
| Some of my favorite social experiences occurred at hotel bars
| near airports. An example was a time I struck up a conversation
| with a woman who turned out to be a flight attendant, and we
| ended up eating dinner together and talking for hours. Even
| gave me her phone number! It's one of those things that's only
| likely to happen in another setting such as a noisy sports bar.
| Being able to hear each other was really important; most bars
| where I live have bad acoustics and music blaring, which I
| think suppresses random conversations.
|
| My other favorite type of bar is those at fancy restaurants.
| They are usually quieter, have better clientele, and are often
| a de facto loophole for eating dinner without a reservation.
| ravenstine wrote:
| > only likely
|
| unlikely*
| [deleted]
| whartung wrote:
| > I love hotel bars, and not just for the quiet.
|
| I was out of town once with my wife, and we were in a hotel. We
| went down to the lounge, and it was a nice, serene space, with
| quiet little seating spaces. It had a great atmosphere and
| snack mix.
|
| Later, I had to go back to the same area and, having had a good
| experience, I picked the same hotel hoping to use the lounge
| again.
|
| But, alas, the hotel was overrun by a High School Jazz Band
| event.
|
| Quiet was not on the menu this trip!
| BlueTemplar wrote:
| Curious, can you go to one if you're _not_ renting a room in
| the hotel ?
| omni wrote:
| Sure you can, businesses generally love you giving them money
| in exchange for goods and services.
| bww wrote:
| ... and you'll give them plenty.
|
| I live in New York, but I rarely go to hotel bars here
| because, while frequently comfortable, they are
| outrageously expensive. On my most recent visit this spring
| I paid $24 for a single very mediocre cocktail.
| whymauri wrote:
| Hotel bars are in a liminal space where some of the best
| bars in the world are in big city hotels, but also some
| of the most disappointing bars. Hard to know without
| searching in advanced. I'm not sure I would just walk in
| when the prices are steep across the board for hotel
| bars.
| munificent wrote:
| _> Places where you can be friends (or at least get drunk) with
| a total stranger for one evening._
|
| Conventions and cruises can scratch this itch too.
| fortuna86 wrote:
| [dead]
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I just recall this from when I used to enjoy alcohol - ordering
| a martini to test proficiency of bartender, and then getting
| charged for a full, disgusting entire shot of vermouth in there
| because the bartenders get in TROUBLE for not metering out
| shots in full, across many bars. Like there's just no recourse
| for them to add a little capful because there's graduated marks
| on the bottles and their boss is being overbearing, across many
| different bars this being the policy.
| justinhj wrote:
| "A perfect martini should be made by filling a glass with
| gin, then waving it in the general direction of Italy." I
| don't drink but it's a nice quote by Noel Coward
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| Dude may as well have just said "I only slam hard liquor
| straight"
| f_allwein wrote:
| To find quiet bars/ restaurants, check out
| https://www.soundprint.co/ , which lets users measure noise
| levels and share this information.
| user1794469 wrote:
| Looks cool, but it's "not available for [my phone] because it
| was made for an older version of Android."
| zekica wrote:
| Offtopic, but this is a new Google Play policy. The app would
| have worked if Google allowed you to install it.
| worble wrote:
| Off topic rant but meanwhile I have windows programs from the
| 90's still running fine on my machine. It baffles me how
| anti-consumer modern phones are.
| sfink wrote:
| Further offtopic, but I have Windows programs from the 90s
| running fine on my machine, but only because they're
| running on Wine on my Linux box. Windows itself can no
| longer run them, even in compatibility mode.
| jsight wrote:
| Same here, and I have a nearly 3 year old Pixel 5.
| StanislavPetrov wrote:
| If you are in NYC and want to try a quiet bar I recommend The
| Burp Castle on East 7th in the East Village. There is a sign
| that says "no loud talking allowed, whispering only". And
| people will actually shush you if you talk to loud. Amazing
| rotating collection of fine beers too.
|
| https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/5d/3a/b45d3a9ec730d587587a...
|
| https://nymag.com/listings/bar/burp-castle/
| subpixel wrote:
| I want to find bars and restaurants that do not have a
| television. This is effing hard.
| galleywest200 wrote:
| Tons of restaurants without a television, that part is easy.
| Go to a smaller place, done.
|
| Now a pub without a TV is much more difficult.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| https://archive.ph/fWwxK
| supportengineer wrote:
| Is there an app to help you find out where the people _aren't_?
| ttymck wrote:
| From what I've seen of it, the UK doesn't have this problem. I
| doubt much of Europe has this problem.
|
| This strikes me as a uniquely American problem: self-inflicted as
| most of our problems are.
| resolutebat wrote:
| I was once at a rave in Estonia that had the loudest sound
| system I have ever seen in my life, speakers stacked to the
| very high ceiling of an old Soviet factory. I was wearing
| earplugs, but it was still uncomfortably loud and I could feel
| my pants vibrate with the bass.
|
| There was one guy, high as a kite, who was literally hugging
| the speakers. I hope he enjoyed the rave because I'm pretty
| sure he got tinnitus as a souvenir.
| beebeepka wrote:
| Sounds exactly like how rave / techno events used to be here
| in Bulgaria.
|
| Super loud bass can make you horny. I still remember two
| dudes playing with each other's nipples standing right next
| to the huge, double stacked, two-speaker Cerwin Vega bass
| boxes. This was 25 years ago.
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| I've been to plenty of loud ass bars in Europe. There's nothing
| uniquely American about this sentiment in my experience
| ttymck wrote:
| Yeah, I think I wasn't clear. I wasn't referring to the
| _existence_ of loud bars. The "problem" is that we have few-
| to-none of the quiet bars. The drinking/third-place culture
| in America is simply worse than the rest of the world
| (outside of NYC).
| christkv wrote:
| Spanish bars are pretty loud only from the people in them never
| mind the tv on full blast.
| anthk wrote:
| And without the TV. Seriously, I can't stand pubs/bars, my GF
| looks me like I was an alien. I prefer cafeterias allegedly
| targeted to " middle aged women", they are far quieter.
| adhesive_wombat wrote:
| A quiet local pub is self-evidently not usually noisy other
| than live music nights where amplifier volume seems to always
| be 10, but I have had my ears blasted hallway to meeting each
| other by music in all of the last 3 UK venues I've been to (two
| urban pubs and a rooftop bar), and all the urban pubs near an
| old workplace were almost unbearable. In fairness, the volume
| in those was mostly due to being absolutely rammed to the
| gunwhales, I only specifically remember one of them adding
| music to the din.
| InCityDreams wrote:
| >I doubt much of Europe has this problem.
|
| Oh, yes it does.
| diob wrote:
| I don't think it's unique to America, I've experienced it in
| Australia.
| ehnto wrote:
| On a night out even the pizza shops are blazing loud dance
| music in Aus in the busy nightlife spots.
|
| Lately it's even hard to find restaurants that don't put the
| music too loud during the day. Why are we always yelling.
| fhars wrote:
| So that you cannot sit around the table talking with
| friends after finishing the pizza and they can serve more
| customers with the same number of tables. Next question?
| ehnto wrote:
| Yes, not an edge case of capitalism really is it. The
| system working as intended to serve the people what they
| want. Pizza and tinnitus.
| wesleychen wrote:
| Are you saying that bars in the UK are quiet? That sounds
| terrible if true, but I find it hard to believe.
| reidrac wrote:
| Avoid karaoke night (really, unless you're certain age and
| want to sing), and generally sport pubs.
|
| Good traditiona oubsl, even the family friendly, are usually
| quiet.
| pmyteh wrote:
| We have both kinds, for different occasions and audiences.
| Many pubs have no music, or quiet background, and are decent
| places for conversation. Most bars have pretty loud music as
| part of the atmosphere. There's a relatively fuzzy line at
| the loud and late opening end between bars and clubs, for
| which music and dancing is the whole point.
| jwarren wrote:
| That's absolutely not the case for the most part, depending
| on the bar and the time. Go out to a city centre on an
| evening, especially Friday or Saturday. Most bars and pubs
| will be busy, noisy, and definitely playing music.
|
| There are absolutely quieter pubs available, but you need to
| know where to go.
| Zizizizz wrote:
| Many pubs don't play music or if they do it's very quiet and
| I don't notice. They are normally loud enough with the sound
| of conversation
| condortg wrote:
| That's probably true of pubs, but if you want to go
| somewhere with a good cocktail or whisky selection, for
| example, it's very hard to find somewhere with low volume
| music.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Well that's not really a focus of British culture
| traditionally. The main people who want to drink
| cocktails are people going out clubbing. The main
| traditional drinking places (pubs) serve mainly beer,
| cider, and wine. The situation is similar in Germany.
| That said, in the UK with the "plastic pubs" it is now
| way more common to be able to get (bad) cocktails
| anywhere.
|
| Though one experience I will never forget going into a
| fancy bar that opened in my mum's small town and asking
| for a martini and the bartender looking confused at me
| and serving me a shot of pure unchilled vermouth in a
| near-empty tall glass...
| Symbiote wrote:
| We now have a couple of vermouth bars in Copenhagen, and
| I even noticed one of them had a "pop up bar" at the
| metal festival.
|
| The bar you visited was just ahead of its time.
| episteme wrote:
| It depends where you are. In Scotland it's hard to find a
| pub without a good whisky selection and in any UK city a
| pub will be able to make a wide range of cocktails.
| Having said that, some play loud music and some don't.
| jon-wood wrote:
| A pub may have the ingredients to make a wide range of
| cocktails, but most of them won't have staff who actually
| know how to do so well. If you're lucky someone will have
| had some training in making cocktails and be able to make
| something passable. If you're unlucky they'll grab the
| bottle of premix from under the bar.
|
| Cocktail bars are a distinct thing, and have staff who
| actually know what they're doing, unfortunately they
| usually have exactly the same problems described in this
| article of being uncomfortably loud.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| "in the UK" is a little broad.
|
| Bars in the city of of London, in the hours after work, are
| far from quiet.
|
| A suburban or village pub may be different. You get to know
| which one in your local area suits your needs. e.g. I could
| point you to a local pub with craft beer and a quiet cosy
| corner, and suggest to avoid the one with the loud sports TV
| always on.
|
| In the actual City area, with the tall buildings, the quiet
| kind will be nearly impossible to find at 6pm on a Friday.
| ehnto wrote:
| Terrible? It's amazing. Often warm and welcoming, a murmur of
| conversation and you're not having to raise your voice to
| speak to your friends or family. You don't go to the quiet
| ones for a raging night out, but for catchups with friends or
| a dinner with family. Really it's a delight.
| andybak wrote:
| That's a particular type of pub and one that is often hard
| to find in a town center.
| tsm wrote:
| I've certainly experienced it in UK cities (Edinburgh, Glasgow,
| London...). Agreed that rural/small-town pubs and 'old man
| pubs' tend to be pleasant and at a reasonable volume.
| freddie_mercury wrote:
| Yet another histrionic American who thinks they are uniquely
| bad based on having gone to a few places in Europe.....
|
| Bars/clubs in Asia -- where I live -- are much, much worse on
| this than anything in America.
|
| So, no, it isn't even remotely a uniquely American problem.
| leoedin wrote:
| UK cities definitely have this problem. We also have local pubs
| which don't play music and have lots of soft furnishings, but
| go into any pub or bar in the city on a Thursday evening and
| you will have to shout. Go anywhere "trendy" and it's got loud
| music, reflective ceilings and you can barely hear anything.
| KnobbleMcKnees wrote:
| Painting the culture of every European country, city and social
| gathering space with the same broad brush is uniquely American
| too.
| sojournerc wrote:
| No, plenty of Europeans on this forum will paint all
| Americans with an equally broad brush. It's not malicious,
| just ignorant.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| A solution is to stop revolving your life around alcohol. I was
| blessed with an upbringing in a family and culture that didn't
| show alcohol and I suddenly found myself 25 years old without
| ever having drunk a sip except in rum-n-raisin ice cream. I was
| able to make the choice very easily to go the rest of my life
| without it.
|
| Whether it's work outing or friends gathering, I just pass if
| it's supposed to be in a pub. Heck, I don't even own pants or
| shoes worthy of wearing to a pub if I needed to.
|
| Yet I feel I haven't missed out on much and gained many other
| things. My friends now meet me during the day. The conversations
| are more memorable and deep and happen at coffee shops,
| restaurants or on our way to those places. Or if I'm particularly
| in a good mood I suppose a park.
|
| As an outsider my opinion is that nothing good has come to
| humanity from the presence of alcohol. It is the worst drug to
| have invaded our history and that's saying a lot given every
| other drug there is. And I'm not just talking about the deaths it
| causes.
| Tade0 wrote:
| I also grew up largely without alcohol anywhere in sight. To
| the extent that as a child I perceived bars and beer gardens as
| mildly threatening - my family never went there, so I didn't
| understand why some people were so loud.
|
| With that out of the way:
|
| > Whether it's work outing or friends gathering, I just pass if
| it's supposed to be in a pub.
|
| There's a selection of non-alcoholic drinks in every bar
| nowadays. You don't really have to limit your social life like
| that just because you don't drink alcohol, unless you're trying
| to make some kind of point.
| erenyeager wrote:
| While many succumb to the pressure of going to bars for
| corporate reasons or peer pressure, it would be more
| accommodating for culture to be less focused around
| consumption of a harmful substance like alcohol which has
| such drastic consequences demonstrated, both long term and
| short term. A lot of non-drinkers would not even like to be
| in an environment where everyone else is drinking.
|
| Luckily, sober culture is becoming more popular as people
| realize the consequences of a society where alcohol
| consumption is widespread -- cirrhosis, alcoholism, and
| various social ills & wastes of money and time.
| ozim wrote:
| I think most of reactions here are because comment reads like
| you believe someone who drinks alcohol cannot go for a dinner
| to a restaurant or to grab a coffee and be sober.
|
| You know that people who drink also meet people sober and most
| of their life they are sober to do work and much of socializing
| as well.
|
| Going with comment on "conversations are more memorable and
| deep" comes off as smug just like you would show off how many
| IQ points you have.
|
| I don't meet people to have "memorable or deep insights", I
| meet people because I like them and I feel like giving them my
| time is nice thing to do and I am happy that they feel that I
| am worthy enough so they want to spend time with me.
| stcroixx wrote:
| Only alcoholics have lives revolving around alcohol and they're
| in the minority. You're simply missing out on a huge swath of
| adult socialization. I know many people who don't drink
| alcohol, but still go to pubs and bars to enjoy other types of
| drinks, food, and socialization. It't not at all uncommon.
|
| Also, pubs do not require any kind of special pants or shoes.
| zigman1 wrote:
| I was visiting London by myself last week. Few people I know
| were busy so I couldn't meet them.
|
| In three free days I had, I went to coffee shops, restaurant,
| parks and a pub. Guess where I met new people. Not saying you
| can't in other places, but to start an interaction with a
| stranger is so much more relaxed in(front of) a pub. Sure I
| could go to that group of people in the park, but wouldn't be
| that a bit to intrusive? In the blues pub where I went, at
| least I know they all like the same music as me.
|
| I had a chat with people who lived in the city their whole
| life. I had a chat with a person from the country with a
| similar name, the one others constantly mistake us for, I had a
| chat with a regular from a bar and someone who just arrived to
| the city. I chatted with someone who studied the same thing as
| me. I met someone who showed me a similar place couple of
| blocks away with whom I then walked and talked most of the
| night (in a park :) ).
|
| And no one really expects you to drink. What is more, if you
| are not there at strange night hours, most of the people don't
| act that differently after two or three beers.
| thorin wrote:
| Which blues pub was it? I used to enjoy going to the 12 bar
| in Denmark Street but a lot of the music scene there has
| closed down now. That used to be where a lot a the musical
| instrument shops were. Unfortunately due to rents and online
| selling there aren't too many physical music shops anymore in
| Central London.
| zigman1 wrote:
| "Ain't Nothing But..." blues bar in Soho. Given the
| location I was expecting to be a bit too mainstream, but I
| was pleasantly surprised.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| This is the only acceptable reason I can see for going to a
| pub, if this truly matters to you. I don't mind meeting and
| knowing new people, but honestly just don't see the net
| benefit. Going to a pub to not get drunk, they better have
| stellar jazz or killer wings lol. Not sure I'd do it anywhere
| except in New Orleans. Where I have.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Where did you go in New Orleans?
| Eisenstein wrote:
| > I don't mind meeting and knowing new people, but honestly
| just don't see the net benefit.
|
| This sounds rather self-absorbed.
| tootie wrote:
| I split my early 20 between NYC and London and my life
| revolved around bars, pubs and parties. By 25, I had quite
| literally had enough. Impossible to say how my life would
| have turned out if I'd never lived that life, but I don't
| really look back fondly on any of it. In the 20 years since
| those days, I've been drunk maybe twice and drink zero
| alcohol most weeks.
| VoodooJuJu wrote:
| >The conversations are more memorable and deep and happen at
| coffee shops
|
| More memorable than what - in pubs which you don't go to? You
| don't know because you've never partook, as you said. You don't
| know what you're missing out on. How then can you judge one way
| or the other?
|
| I wouldn't dismiss alcohol as a net negative to humanity. Beer
| and wine are Lindy staples in European cultures, not just as
| intoxicants but primarily as food. And although your family
| culture is quite different, the majority culture of the
| wealthy, liberal country you received your world-class
| education from is alcohol-positive. There's something to that.
|
| Note also that drinking alcohol doesn't mean drinking to
| excess, which is what many people seem to implicate when they
| talk about drinking alcohol.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Lindy staples?
| VoodooJuJu wrote:
| Lindy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect; _...the
| longer a period something has survived to exist or be used
| in the present, the longer its remaining life expectancy.
| Longevity implies a resistance to change, obsolescence or
| competition and greater odds of continued existence into
| the future._
|
| staples as in "staple foods or crops"
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Oh I understood the latter but now I see where that
| saying about how a company is expected to last long as
| it's already had comes from
| yanellena wrote:
| Pubs can be nice places to go to without needing to drink
| alcohol. In Britain there are some fantastic pub buildings and
| gardens.
|
| Personally I meet many of my friends in pubs and the alcohol
| isn't a factor at all. We manage to have deep and meaningful
| conversations often.
| [deleted]
| ihateyouall3456 wrote:
| [dead]
| [deleted]
| ahahahahah wrote:
| [flagged]
| contrarian1234 wrote:
| You're not making an informed choice and reveling in your own
| ignorance
|
| I used to think the same, and then I started to drink socially
| and saw
|
| 1. all the things I had been just quietly not been invited to
| previously
|
| 2. the social lubricant aspect of alcohol that I didn't
| appreciate till I experienced it. This is not just the
| physiological aspect , this is the social effect as well which
| can't be replicated sober (see freshmen college students
| getting "drunk" on alcohol-free beer).
|
| Its difficult to articulate, but the excuse of inebriation
| creates a "safe space" to let loose in a sense. For instance,
| if you make an offcolor joke sober people may find it very
| funny , but they'll also think you maybe lack manners or don't
| know what's appropriate "She's funny, but kinda low EQ". If you
| are inebriated (or even pretending to be) then you are safe
| from judgment up to a point. This opens a lot of doors, and
| opportunities to bond with people.
|
| Bc of the judgment aspect, no one likes to drink with someone
| sober - so you're just not seeing it for the most part
|
| I had another analogous experience. All through high school and
| college I didn't use Facebook. In the last year of college I
| relented - suddenly I was being invited to stuff left and
| right.
|
| You don't know what you don't know. Dogmatic beliefs not
| grounded in experience aren't worth much
|
| Try drinking (responsibily) for a couple of years and then come
| back making your proclamations. There are very few people that
| have actively tried both lifestyles and chosen to be a
| teetotaler. When that does happen , it's generally because of
| issues of self control, a predisposition to alcoholism or bc
| they tried it a few times and never got used to it
| anthk wrote:
| In Spain alcohol it's basically something for granted. If you
| don't drink, you are the outsider, or you must be ill to not
| be harashed for not drinking a beer in the pub with your
| friends.
| ajuc wrote:
| For what it's worth I was a teetotaler for religious reasons
| till 18, they I drank through my 20s (usually 1-2 beers in
| pub with friends, on weddings etc I drank wodka pretty
| heavily cause I'm in Poland, but that was maybe twice a year
| thing). I stopped again in 30s for health reasons (unrelated
| to drinking).
|
| There isn't much difference IMHO. Most people don't care if
| you drink. The single biggest issue is dancing without
| alcohol, but I managed in high school so I'm fine now.
| contrarian1234 wrote:
| That's super interesting. You feel you are connecting and
| making friends at the same pace? I moved from a very drink-
| heavy society to one where people drink very sparingly. I
| now often make aquaintences and have the feeling that if
| only I went out for some drink with them then we could
| potentially be friends. It never happens, and life makes up
| sail past each other
|
| Maybe I'd still not connect :)) but my gut feeling is that
| I could at least make 30% more friends if not significantly
| more
| ajuc wrote:
| I'm still going to after-work parties from time to time,
| I just drink nonalcoholic stuff.
|
| The biggest difference in friend-making was when I
| graduated and started to work, not when I stopped
| drinking 5 years later. Also I was never very social to
| begin with. So maybe what's normal for me is "not
| connecting" for you :)
| contrarian1234 wrote:
| Yeah, I could see maybe life circumstances not bringing
| it out. I'm naturally quite shy and reserved and not
| particularly outgoing around new people. So I feel some
| drinks help in this regards as it set a nice social
| setting to open up. But for instance if you're mainly
| meeting friends-of-friends then I could see alcohol
| playing a smaller role
|
| Interesting to think about. Thanks for the perspective :)
| Lewton wrote:
| > When that does happen , it's generally because of issues of
| self control, a predisposition to alcoholism or bc they tried
| it a few times and never got used to it
|
| Or maybe it's because my drinking buddies got older and I saw
| the toll it takes on people
|
| It's like the day you realize how much better life is when
| you get a good nights sleep and then can never go back
| contrarian1234 wrote:
| See to me the whole idea of "drinking buddies" always felt
| a bit excessive.
|
| With close friends I don't particularly need alcohol to let
| loose. I don't worry about how I come off or feel judged. I
| can be crass or obnoxious when the mood takes me. Their
| opinions of me have already been cemented over the years.
|
| Sure sometimes you can get together and get trashed and
| turn it up a notch - but it's never necessary
|
| To me all the benefits i illustrated are in the realm of
| meeting new people and making new connections - or trying
| to get with people from the acquaintance stage to the
| friend stage I suppose
| dang wrote:
| Please edit out personal attacks and swipes from your HN
| posts. Your comment would be fine without those bits.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| [deleted]
| ramraj07 wrote:
| I'll respectfully turn down the offer of drinking responsibly
| for any amount of time. The best medically grounded advice at
| this point is that the most responsible amount of alcohol to
| drink is zero. If you can. But then that goes to sugar as
| well. But I'm already used to sugar so that's a hard sell for
| me, just as I assume it'll be a hard sell to ask you to go
| sober. Which I won't suggest either. If you already drink and
| like it, sure the best course is to keep it to a glass or two
| a week and have fun.
|
| As for the "social lubricant" argument: sure people open up
| more once you pour a bunch of drinks in. I'll also take your
| argument that maybe they truly don't reveal their selves to
| sober me (I doubt it, I'm generally cooky and have multiple
| times been asked "are you sure you're not drunk?").
|
| Also isn't it interesting that alcohol brings out the worst
| qualities in many people as well? Almost every single
| instance of me hearing a friend having something
| "inappropriate" happen to them, it was in a bar or pub and
| there most definitely was alcohol involved. Only over the top
| creeps do inappropriate things when sober. I'd rather not be
| in a place where the likelihood of creepy shit going down
| skyrockets and watch a movie instead.
|
| But what exactly do you reckon you learn from your friends or
| colleagues that I don't get to? I have a good job, which I've
| progressed through quite well, so clearly I didn't miss out
| on any inside detail that could have only been gleaned
| professionally over a drink. I have few friends but from what
| I hear from many, more meaningful ones than most people.
| Almost always when I skip a party or pub outing the next time
| I meet someone they just say "yeah you didn't miss much."
|
| If I'm missing on some secret second life that is only
| accessible after you sign up to permanently imbuing this drug
| forever, yeah I'll pass. Sounds like a cult and it doesn't
| matter what orgy or salvation it promises. Sometimes it's
| more important to keep your freedom and senses than to
| experience everything.
| contrarian1234 wrote:
| I find your response very perplexing. You make this great
| analogy with sugar (that's really good! I'll make sure to
| use it in the future) and then you just kinda.. Dismiss it
| with a "well I'm already addicted to that" ???
|
| I'd encourage you to take that analogy further and think
| about
|
| - sugar is significantly more addictive. Almost everyone
| basically craves sweet things regularly. Unless predisposed
| to alcoholism the vast majority of people do not crave
| alcohol. If you start to drink and you are thinking about
| getting a drink when idle at work - then you have an issue
| and should probably stop. I get the sense from your
| response that you think this is the default - but I can
| assure you it's not. At the moment I drink about once every
| couple of weeks. During the pandemic I was very busy and
| didn't drink at all. At no point did I "want a drink".
| Alcoholism is a very serious issue that affect many, but
| for the vast majority of society this isn't a direct
| concern (though it seems to affect European countries a lot
| harder)
|
| - sugar is consumed regularly and is vastly worse for your
| health that a few drinks once a week or something to that
| effect
|
| - sugar has basically no social benefits for you. And
| basically no longer term benefits. There are no sugar
| orgies I'm sorry to say. It just momentarily makes you a
| bit happier
|
| You can continue to not drink and life will pass you by. If
| you're in an alcohol consuming society you will just make
| fewer connections with people, make fewer friends and fall
| in love less. But it's doable. I think back on all my close
| friends - and if I didn't drink EVER I think I'd estimate
| I'd have 30-50% fewer friends. It's not the end of the
| world - but it's a significant difference. Most people are
| shy and take time to open up (myself included). Maybe you
| connect a bit, but then life makes you sail-by. I now live
| in a society where people drink a lot less and I constantly
| make acquaintances that just don't stick. A night out with
| some drinks doesn't fix everything, but it definitely gives
| people a chance to connect in a way that's much harder
| organically. You could argue that "real" "true" friends
| will connect regardless - it's probably true.. Like 60% of
| the time? So you leave 40% on the table
|
| My own mental analogy would be like if you insisting
| everyone reach out to yo by email b/c you're worried about
| your privacy. Sure you'd still make some friends and still
| have a life.. But most people won't even bother - and
| they'll have their orgies on Facebook without you
| distcs wrote:
| [deleted]
| mpweiher wrote:
| > That's just anecdata
|
| Er...no. The statistics completely back this up.
|
| https://www.ncadd.us/about-addiction/addiction-
| update/alcoho...
| distcs wrote:
| The link you have cited is good. Thanks!
|
| But I was responding to this comment here -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36490348
|
| That comment had no statistics to back it up. They only
| presented their own anecdotes and biases.
| jimbo2000 wrote:
| I thought it was pretty widely understood that alcohol
| results in behavioural changes that increase the risk of
| violence or "inappropriateness"
|
| See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8729263
| ramraj07 wrote:
| I spent a couple years in college station. The concept of
| a designated driver did not exist there. I doubt it does
| in any campus. The main places I've found myself around
| drunk people was in academic conferences and in work
| outings/happy hours. Well employed, highly educated
| people. Not unemployed hobos. And a good fraction of them
| start touching inappropriately. Sure it's still anecdotal
| but I didn't claim to anything but. What non anecdotal
| data are you looking for? This literally commentary on a
| letter to an editor in the times.
| karmakurtisaani wrote:
| What for you seems like inappropriate touching might just
| be bonding for them. This is what the other commenter
| meant by bonding better when drunk - what is
| inappropriate sober suddenly becomes appropriate, and
| that makes people feel more connected.
|
| Nothing wrong with not drinking, but alcohol has its
| pluses and minuses. I myself barely drink these days due
| to having small kids and getting the worst hangovers at
| this age, but I can't imagine I'd be the same person
| socially if I hadn't had alcohol when I was younger. I
| would not have had as good discussions with friends, nor
| met a fraction of the people I did (including of the
| opposite sex, including my wife). No health problems as a
| result, maybe I would have been slightly more focused in
| my studies, but it would hardly have made a difference to
| where I am now. The gained social skills vastly outweigh
| the lost study potential.
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| > Try drinking (responsibily) for a couple of years
|
| Active preaching of alcohol, this is the dumbest advice I've
| ever heard, maybe just after some people preaching for
| pornography. A drunk you is objectively not any better than a
| sober one, rather far worse. You have one life, don't waste
| it.
| andybak wrote:
| I bet you're fun at parties.
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| My life is infinitely more enjoyable waking up early to
| watch the sun rise while gardening instead of waking up
| hungover at 11 am to wonder what I did or said last night
| I don't remember.
|
| Modernity sucks.
| thepasswordis wrote:
| >modernity sucks
|
| Do you think there was any point anywhere in history
| where people weren't enjoying drinking together?
|
| FFS one of the miracles of the founding religion of our
| society is about a guy turning water into alcohol at a
| party! And that was thousands of years ago!
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| I don't believe people ever enjoy drinking. It's bad to
| have your mind altered and mental capabilities such as
| memory reduced, period. To do and say things you normally
| wouldn't.
|
| It's rather that those who regularly drink can't enjoy
| themselves without drinking when the time for a fix
| comes. It's an addiction, even if withdrawals are less
| noticeable due to normalization of drinking and the
| regularity of the act for most people.
| andybak wrote:
| That's rather a false dichotomy. I can't remember the
| last time I had a proper hangover and I can see the
| sunrise whenever I choose (although I'm not especially an
| early riser - but that has been true my entire life)
| kredd wrote:
| Not to be that guy, but social drinking isn't about
| getting trashed every night and waking up at 1PM. Nor
| it's about getting drunk so much where you don't remember
| the previous night. To put into a perspective, I have a
| few drinks almost every night, but also go hiking or
| snowboarding at 6AM. Maybe it's a PNW kinda thing, but I
| can guarantee I'm not an exception to the rule.
|
| The social drinking is about grabbing a drink or two,
| either solo or friends, to let yourself loose a bit. It's
| about temporarily changing your attitude towards your
| environment, maybe cracking a couple of silly jokes.
| Maybe sitting at a beach or a park, watching sunset while
| listening to your surroundings.
|
| Moderation is the key when it comes to mind-altering
| substances. Obviously it's easier to say, but if super-
| majority of your experiences are positive, it is ok to
| suffer from some mild bad experiences (agonizing
| hangovers a couple of times a year).
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| One can drink in moderation indeed. One nation can't.
| When drinks are allowed, you get zillions of divorces,
| car crashes, mortal figths, murders, and much more every
| year.
|
| Sorry, I didn't mention that my religion prohibits the
| use of any and all mind altering substances. So it's not
| possible for me to drink in moderation either. I'm glad
| for this restriction I choose to obey. I'd rather have me
| control me at all times rather than some altered version
| of myself.
| Mystery-Machine wrote:
| Why this doesn't work while drinking tea?
| stn_za wrote:
| Bwaha, a drunk me is objectively better than a sober me. By
| far. :P
| kome wrote:
| i would be _very_ surprised if you are European... this
| very puritan approach to alcohol and life feel SO american.
| contrarian1234 wrote:
| Haha, and my first thought was Saudia Arabia
|
| I do think drinking is great, but part of it is finding
| what amount you're comfortable with. It's also a skill
| that needs to be developed. Just saying no and not even
| trying it... I feel bad for these people people bc
| they're missing out on a lot
|
| For context I drink maybe once every couple of weeks -
| unless it's a particularly social period of my life. I
| find this a good medium for me
| jacquesm wrote:
| I'm a European and have seen the devastating effects of
| alcohol on both sides of my family. I can't imagine any
| positive effects that would be able to offset and I've
| never drank a drop in my life.
| layer8 wrote:
| > I can't imagine any positive effects that would be able
| to offset and I've never drank a drop in my life.
|
| This is not without correlation.
| jacquesm wrote:
| You think observational and imaginative skills are
| limited to participants?
| nly wrote:
| Hundreds of millions of people drink alcohol every month
| and lead perfectly healthy lives unaffected by addiction.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I'm sure they do. And in the US alone 30 million (give or
| take) people have alcohol related problems.
| Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
| But that's not a lottery, like e.g. getting lung cancer
| if you smoke. You can be responsible and make sure to
| drink a moderate amount of alcohol.
| jacquesm wrote:
| You can be. But one of the well known effects of alcohol
| is to impair the judgment of those that consume it which
| can lead to the intention to drink a moderate amount of
| alcohol being (substantially) surpassed.
|
| Between drunk drivers, abused spouses and abused children
| there is a ton of alcohol related misery. For me
| personally none of the positive effects of alcohol begin
| to offset those. Not everybody is able to deal with
| addictive substances in a responsible way.
|
| I'm perfectly ok with other people drinking (as long as
| they don't negatively impact others), I just saw the
| generalization above and figured I would contribute a
| slightly different point of view.
| jowdones wrote:
| Re: getting drunk on alcohol free beer. I remember one time
| in college at a party when I drank a large cup of Cola or
| Fanta something. Then colleagues laughed and told me it was
| half vodka.
|
| In like 5 minutes I could barely walk. Then they laughed
| again, told me there was no vodka, they were joking. A minute
| later I was perfectly sober.
|
| Then they laughed again and said the joke was that there's no
| vodka, actually it was. Predictably, minutes later I was
| intoxicated again.
|
| To this day I don't know if there was vodka involved or not.
| Tenoke wrote:
| If it was anywhere near 'half vodka' you would've tasted
| it.
| jowdones wrote:
| I know this from modern perspective, I make myself a
| tonic vodka sometimes and the ratio of tonic over vodka
| needs to be very high to not taste the latter.
| radicalbyte wrote:
| If it was half vodka and you're t-total then:
|
| a) You would have puked it up. b) You would have tasted the
| disgusting burning crap. c) You would have been out cold
| within an hour.
| nly wrote:
| Alcoholic beverages can also be incredibly tasty. There are a
| thousand thousand varieties of beer, wine, cider and spirits
| out there to try.
|
| A couple of drinks a couple of times a month is well worth
| the health impact to live a little.
| anthk wrote:
| There are lots of beer with 0% of alcohol which are just as
| tasty as alcoholic ones.
| throwaway_dhv7k wrote:
| You also have no idea how many people look at people who
| drink alcohol with disgust and never invite them to their
| social events.
| andybak wrote:
| I think I would be able to take a reasonable guess at how
| many and it's not a very big number.
| throwaway_dhv7k wrote:
| The convenience of human existence at the moment is that
| you can make a number of mistakes every day and it
| doesn't lower the chances of your survival, your ability
| to leave offspring, and even can't hurt your self-esteem
| at all.
| poisonarena wrote:
| im 38 years old, never seen or heard of anyone outside of
| maybe a particular religious group(maybe mormons?) doing
| something like this.
| Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
| No problem. I wouldn't like to be at an event organized by
| someone who looks at me with disgust for whatever reason.
| HellDunkel wrote:
| I hardly drink anything these days and have been drinking very
| rarely for the last 10 years. In my 20ies i drank way too much,
| although never alone. After all, i think your approach is
| better. Yes, you have probably missed out on some things. For
| me that would have been parties and music happenings i would
| not want to miss. But who knows what else i would have done had
| i just skipped that phase of my life.
| CalRobert wrote:
| That doesn't sound like a very good solution to "where should I
| have a pint?"
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| [flagged]
| andybak wrote:
| There's a really fantastic bar scene in Istanbul.
|
| Of the other muslim countries I've been to (Morocco,
| Malaysia, Egypt) I had no problems getting a drink anywhere
| and I saw locals drinking in each one.
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| There are indeed less and more religious local places. I'm
| in a more religious one. Btw you can always get a drink in
| Muslim countries if you're not Muslim, as per the Sharia.
| andybak wrote:
| Doesn't that rather weaken your original claim?
| "Prohibition is possible but it will be rather unevenly
| distributed"
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| No. Sorry if my original claim is unclear. Prohibition is
| for Muslims and do work for them. There is no prohibition
| for non-muslims in sharia.
| andybak wrote:
| Yes and my point was that a hell of a lot of Muslims seem
| to enjoy a drink from what I've observed.
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| We don't have Sharia in Turkey and for countries that
| implement it, there's leftover corruption and puppet
| govts from colonial era whose best interest is not
| exactly fully implementing Sharia. Those who do it (e.g.
| Afghanistan) are immediately sanctioned to poverty. There
| is 2+ billion muslims in the world and not everyone is
| religious. If we had Sharia here (we're working towards
| it) those muslims would be subject to and benefit from
| the prohibition. We're returning to the pre-colonial days
| of Islam though, see an analysis:
| https://muslimskeptic.com/2023/04/12/finally-admit-youth-
| rel...
| andybak wrote:
| Islam has had a much more varied history than the picture
| you are painting. Let's hope the conflation of extreme
| conservativism with "true Islam" is reaching the end of
| it's shelf life.
| beepbopboopp wrote:
| How on earth can you claim to feel like you havent missed out
| on much when youve never tried it. What you're describing is
| more akin to growing up in your parents religion than making a
| personal choice.
| vintermann wrote:
| I dare say we never-drinkers know a lot more about the
| drinking life we miss out on than you drinkers know about the
| never-drinking life you miss out on.
|
| That's true of most minority positions, just like atheists
| generally know more about Christians than vice versa ...
| since you brought up religion, I'd say it is going with the
| drinking culture flow that is the equivalent of blindly
| staying with your parent's religion.
|
| And just like with atheism vs. religion, we don't just always
| make the choice that's easy and comfortable. Like the guy
| above here who finds that he's more included socially when he
| drinks - yeah, no shit he is, and he'd be more included in a
| Pentecostal meeting too if he spoke in tongues. Should we all
| just go along with things that seem dishonest or insane to
| us, for the sake of fitting in?
| ImPleadThe5th wrote:
| "I've watched enough documentaries about Africa, I probably
| know more about it than the people who live there"
| vintermann wrote:
| You are comparing the majority, whose culture I'm exposed
| to every day in lots of ways I would prefer not to, to a
| distant continent? Great own, buddy.
| Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
| _> I dare say we never-drinkers know a lot more about the
| drinking life we miss out on than you drinkers know about
| the never-drinking life you miss out on._
|
| I dare say the opposite, as many drinkers routinely
| experience not drinking, while the opposite is by
| definition not true.
|
| I'm a drinker but I have sometimes spent several months
| without drinking, for various reasons. Including spending
| months at countries where I didn't drink at all and people
| I met wouldn't even know whether I usually drink or not.
|
| Honestly I have never saw those wonders of the "never-
| drinking life" that I'm supposed to be missing. It's the
| same (drinkers can meet friends during the day and outside
| of bars, too!) minus the activities that involve drinking.
| ozim wrote:
| Upvote for this, because that is funny reading person who
| never drinks not realizing that normal people spend most
| of their lives being sober.
|
| -- disclaimer I refer to "normal" people who drink but
| are not addicted. Non drinking people are normal as well.
| vintermann wrote:
| Of course I realize that. Just like I realize Christians
| don't spend every walking moment talking in tongues.
| Doesn't mean they understand the atheist life better than
| atheists understand theirs.
|
| Aside, this sort of "hilarious reply!" post isn't exactly
| nice when I'm right here is it.
| Hnrobert42 wrote:
| Isn't that like saying that able-bodied people know just
| as much about being a wheelchair user because able-bodied
| people also spend time sitting?
|
| The life of a teetotaler is not just your life minus the
| time you are drinking. Indeed, you explicitly make GP's
| point when you say, "I never saw those wonders of the
| "never-drinking life" that I am supposed to be missing."
|
| Now, I would not argue that being a teetotaler is
| wonderful. I don't drink because my father was an
| alcoholic. I feel like I have missed out of vast swaths
| of life. To me, the experience varies from fine to quite
| isolating and painful (especially when I was younger and
| conformity mattered more).
|
| When I was younger, going to a bar and not drinking was
| like being a virgin late in life while everyone is
| talking about sex. Once you've had sex, you realize no
| one judges virgins. But as the virgin, you feel painfully
| alone. You know your friends' awareness of your
| difference is harshing their mellow a bit.
|
| But in the end, it is absurd to argue with people on the
| internet over who knows more about life. That's a
| conversation better over a beer. I guess.
| vintermann wrote:
| You have tried being teporarily sober, but you have not
| truly seen alcohol culture from outside.
|
| I didn't say doing that would be wonderful, that was your
| own words. It's not fun to be the only atheist at a
| Pentecostal meeting either, but as I said: sometimes you
| choose what to do for other reasons than fitting in and
| having fun.
| nl wrote:
| > You have tried being teporarily sober, but you have not
| truly seen alcohol culture from outside.
|
| I used not to be a drinker (not total teetotaler, but
| would never drink when out) well into my 30s. Now I do
| drink.
|
| I much prefer drinking.
|
| I do think that "alcohol culture" means different things
| to different people in different places and at different
| ages. To generalize massively, I don't think much of the
| stereotypical way way 19yos from the UK drink when in
| Ibiza.
|
| But I do enjoy 4 or 5 cocktails or whiskys in a good bar
| (which for me isn't one with loud music incidentally)
| with good company.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| Of course I know I'm missing out on a lot. We all do. You
| reach peace and wisdom by acknowledging that you're not gonna
| experience EVERYTHING. The question is what matters more to
| you. I decided and am happy that I chose to forego midnight
| escapades fueled by alcohol or the pursuit of it. In return
| I've gained more time when I'm at peace, more valuable time
| with friends, and one less vice to worry about.
| hospitalJail wrote:
| No you are not missing out.
|
| Heck, if you really want to try it once for the experience,
| go ahead under supervision. And don't fall for the 'it
| didn't ruin my life the first time'. That is just the bait.
| Its never as good as the first time, you chase the dragon,
| and you feel like crap later.
| Kneecaps07 wrote:
| As someone who drank heavily for ten years, I can confirm
| that this person didn't miss out on anything, except feeling
| like crap all the time, and money that disappears.
| emptyfile wrote:
| [dead]
| brookst wrote:
| I'm glad you recovered.
|
| But I think you're mistaken to claim that everyone who
| enjoys great wine, or whiskey, or beer, is getting nothing
| from it.
| joenot443 wrote:
| As someone who's only ever drank moderately and has
| generally enjoyed it, I can confirm that you way overdid
| it.
|
| If you're feeling like crap all the time and waking up with
| your money gone, perhaps the problem lay within the
| drinker, not the drink.
| convalescindrey wrote:
| There are levels between "never touched a glass, don't even
| enter a bar" and "drinking heavily and feeling like crap
| all the time".
|
| FWIW, I've had my deepest conversations in late evenings
| after a gig with a glass of white wine in my hand from
| which I sipped for like an hour. (I'm a musician.) My life
| would be fundamentally different without a single sip or
| even entering a bar, and I would really miss something.
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| I don't have to try heroin to know I'm not missing out.
|
| It isn't all religion. Alcohol is a poison, by the definition
| of poison. There are a hundred studies on its negative
| effects.
| hbn wrote:
| There isn't thousands of years of social precedence around
| winding down by shooting heroine with your friends.
|
| No one's saying alcohol is healthy, but you're certainly
| cutting out a certain potential for social experiences by
| avoiding bars and alcohol. For some people the effect help
| them loosen up enough to have positive, meaningful
| interactions they wouldn't have otherwise.
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| As a past high functioning alcoholic. That line of
| reasoning sounds very familiar. I used to tell myself the
| same thing. But once you stop drinking, you start seeing
| that the drinking was adding to the stress, and personal
| relationships were not as 'meaningful' as I thought.
| Hanging out drinking is not as 'deep' as it appears when
| not drinking.
|
| Many studies do show that alcohol leads to additional
| stress, which then drives the need for additional
| drinking.
|
| EDIT
|
| Don't take me wrong. You seemed to really focus on the
| Religious side. I'm just saying that there are a lot of
| valid Health Reasons (Non-Moral, Non-religious) reasons
| not to drink.
|
| And, I'm not saying I don't like drinking. Just because
| I'm an addict doesn't mean I don't like drinking.
| FpUser wrote:
| I did social drinking and in the beginning it was cool. At
| some point however it became really boring and I stopped
| completely (well ok in 10 years since I'd stopped I might
| have drank 3 glasses of wine). I still hang out with the same
| friends and there are no problems at all.
| ThrowMeABC wrote:
| I have never used heroin or other hard drugs. And I do not
| intent to. So I might have missed out, you say?
| emptyfile wrote:
| [dead]
| Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
| You do miss out, but of course the value of what you miss
| out is nothing compared to the devastating consequences to
| their life that practically everyone using heroin
| experience.
|
| On the other hand, many people drink alcohol and live
| perfectly normal lives. So I don't think that's an
| informative comparison.
| rootsudo wrote:
| There is a community around drug users, especially the type
| they select to use. So - while that decision tree never
| happens to you, to some people, invested in the community
| and such would say yes.
|
| That's the beauty of life. You write your own adventure.
| Whether people know it or not... eh.
| leoedin wrote:
| Well, yes, you have missed out. Clearly you're choosing to
| miss out because you don't think it's worth it - but that
| doesn't change the fact you're missing out.
| episteme wrote:
| I see what you're saying but this only leads to a
| discussion about the differences between heroin and
| alcohol, rather than deciding if you can roughly judge
| alcohol use from the outside.
| Tildey wrote:
| You'll be missing out on some experiences for sure. Would
| it be a net positive? Probably not. But you really can't
| quite comprehend the feelings you're missing out on.
|
| There might be tangential things you don't experience too,
| places you'll never go, and people you'll never meet.
|
| -Someone who has experienced "hard" drugs
| pfannkuchen wrote:
| Alcohol has been a significant part of many cultures for
| thousands of years, while heroin most certainly has not
| (and still is not to this day, aside from a cultural fringe
| here and there). That seems like a relevant difference?
| monsieurbanana wrote:
| If most of the population did heroine and hard drugs to
| socialize then probably, yeah?
|
| I've also never drank besides the occasional cocktail, and
| I can count on my hands the number of times I've bent to a
| bar. I had other kind of experiences instead and I wouldn't
| change it, but of course I've missed out on certain things.
| mantas wrote:
| ,,Most of population did" is not exactly a good meter
| wether something is good or bad. ,,Most of population
| did" quite a few things that didn't turn out that well.
| monsieurbanana wrote:
| We're talking about "missing out", not about something
| being a net positive or a net negative.
|
| But also that was just to point out that IMO the analogy
| with hard drugs doesn't work, I don't want to debate
| about a hypothetical world where most people do hard
| drugs.
| Detrytus wrote:
| That world is not hypothetical: there's a debate whether
| we should differentiate between "soft" and "hard" drugs
| (because we might be encouraging people to use the soft
| ones by doing so), but one thing is for sure: alcohol is
| a "hard" drug, same as heroin.
| mantas wrote:
| ,,Missing out" does have a cultural weight of being net
| positive.
|
| Nobody says he just missed out on crashing into a tree on
| a windy road.
| brnt wrote:
| Quite literally you have missed out, yes. The question is:
| is that a problem? I generally don't suffer from FOMO, and
| any current science on alcohol (which the WHO basically
| classifies as hard drug, it's just one that's culturally
| accepted in many places) is pointing towards the safe dose
| being 0.
|
| I unfortunately come from a culture where alcohol
| consumption is accepted, so it's been harder than I would
| like to break with tradition in the face of science, but
| doing so it a good thing, and if your cultural background
| helps you a hand because it does not accept alcohol as
| readily as mine, more power to you.
|
| Drugs FOMO is some of the stupidest FOMO around. I've
| nothing against using soft drugs, but making any drug part
| of your life style is almost certainly a bad idea, and if
| never even trying suits your personality type (some are
| just more easily addicted than others), then you are wise
| for steering clear, not an ignorant traditionalist (or at
| least, not necessarily so).
|
| That does not mean gathering in third places is
| problematic, I do wish we could come up with ways of doing
| it without the expectation of the consumption of alcohol.
| cm2187 wrote:
| The only safe speed on a car is also 0.
| vincnetas wrote:
| But we accept risk because of benefits a car moving
| faster than 0 brings. I might say same about some of
| psychedelic drugs. At least from my personal experience.
| cassonmars wrote:
| Except in an intersection or on a highway
| developer93 wrote:
| I don't think that takes away from their point
| cm2187 wrote:
| It means you accept some risk if you get some utility.
| You can justify anything with a zero risk policy.
| gls2ro wrote:
| Not true.
|
| You might be stopped in your car in the parking space but
| someone else might just crash into your car.
|
| So just being in the car on a public road or parking will
| be safer than driving but not safe as in zero chances of
| being involved in an accident.
|
| The same goes with alcohol even if you dont consume you
| are not completely safe from its effects: someone might
| drink and drive or drink and operate a machinery or drink
| and build your house ...
|
| Probably the same can be said about tiredness or
| something else. We should pick our battles. I am not sure
| which ones are better. Just found it funny that even
| sitting in the car is not safe enough as long as we have
| vehicles
| WrongAssumption wrote:
| Not sure how that's a rebuttal, the scenario you
| described is a danger because the speed of the other car
| is not zero. It's telling that the only scenario you
| found to make it dangerous was to bring another moving
| car into the equation.
| atoav wrote:
| Do you consider the adicitiveness of alcohol to be the same
| as that of heroin?
| icameron wrote:
| I was surprised to learn that alcohol withdrawal can be
| fatal, unlike heroin, which is incredibly uncomfortable
| but not fatal.
| sideshowb wrote:
| Interesting perspective!
|
| On a light note, ... You don't own any pants or shoes at all?
| ramraj07 wrote:
| Ha ha slowly it came to that yes. I own one pair of Levi
| jeans (my waist fluctuates too much and my social calendar
| demands none of it so I just don't keep more than one) which
| I rarely use (tropical country now). Only gym and running
| shoes, I'm a sandals guy. Of course this changes when I'm in
| New York in winter but I still just have boots and that same
| single pair of jeans I suppose.
| thorin wrote:
| That's exactly what I'd wear to a pub, bar, restaurant or
| cafe so not sure why you'd think that would be an issue.
| Even most nightclubs don't bother about dress codes much
| these days.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| I've been turned away twice in my life for not wearing
| shoes, and once for not wearing pants. So thats
| something?
| explaininjs wrote:
| The clothes are the legally justified excuse, really
| they're going by their impression of you.
| sideshowb wrote:
| Well I don't know New York but in a proper pub they will be
| fine with whatever trousers and shoes you have. For that
| matter I once walked into a country pub (not one where they
| know me) in only wet swimming trunks and we persuaded them
| to serve us on credit.
| [deleted]
| rocketbop wrote:
| > Heck, I don't even own pants or shoes worthy of wearing to a
| pub if I needed to.
|
| I wonder if your idea of what going to a bar is has been
| coloured by TV, movies etc. It doesn't have to be glamorous.
| Most bars do not have a dress code. I don't usually dress
| differently to go for a beer than I do when I am working.
|
| Interesting perspective, but I think it's a little conceited to
| claim you haven't missed out on anything because you have
| deeper conversations with people during the day.
|
| I do agree that it's an awful drug with terrible health
| consequences. Living the healthiest life possible as often as
| possible is not necessarily the best way to live, in my
| opinion. Of course best is subjective.
| convalescindrey wrote:
| > The conversations are more memorable and deep
|
| More than .. what? The conversations you would have had in the
| evening in a bar? How do you know?
|
| Reminds me of the sticker on the detergent box "20% more
| effective at removing stains". ... More than ... what?
| silverpepsi wrote:
| This is pretty strongly worded. I would only say you were
| "blessed" if your were predisposed to alcoholism. My life has
| had a huge variety of phases, some 6 months or one year periods
| with alcohol and others often longer 2-3 years almost entirely
| without. There is no seduction to the substance for me, nothing
| to need "quitting", yet there were a few amazing memories that
| wouldn't have happened without. I feel I got to see it all, and
| the ideal is probably having a group of friends who indulge
| without limit once in a great while - every two or three
| months.
|
| I think this would benefit most people, the exception are
| "super connectors" who have social abilities so strong that
| they effortlessly connect to people and connect other pairs (1%
| or less of the population afaik) without expenditg effort.
|
| But for me, introverted, if I never used alcohol I wouldn't
| even understand the concept of stopping being uptight and
| reserved for a single moment to know what life "could be like".
| This knowledge helps me fight the overwhelming urge when sober
| to let the inward inclination be all consuming.
| hsjqllzlfkf wrote:
| One thing I've learned about the internet - any time you
| dismiss alcohol, somehow will show up feeling slighted.
| joenot443 wrote:
| Same with Linux, anime, hiking, metal, or anything else that
| lots of people like. Usually when people dismiss an entire
| category of things which they've never even tried, they're
| not operating out of a place of knowledge, just ideology.
|
| It's super weird for the GP to feel such strong superiority
| over something they find themselves unable to even try
| without fear of disaster. We're supposed to consider them the
| more enlightened one?
| hsjqllzlfkf wrote:
| I don't find it super weird, at least conceptually.
| Conceptually there could be things so dangerous that you
| can't try even once. Maybe he's mistaken in believing that
| alcohol belongs to that category, but the principle is
| conservative, if not optimal. Yes, better to err by never
| trying than by becoming addicted.
|
| Disclosure, I enjoy alcohol, but I admire those who say "I
| won't try, not even once".
| ihateyouall3456 wrote:
| [dead]
| shrikant wrote:
| I also grew up in a family and cultural setting that didn't
| involve any alcohol at all until I was about 25.
|
| I've since done almost a complete 180, and now it's very
| unlikely that a week goes by without alcohol consumption of
| some sort. I have tonnes of fun and it makes social
| interactions so much easier for someone like me. And pretty
| much all of my close social circles have a reasonably healthy
| relationship with booze, so it's not like we're going out and
| getting plastered on weekends.
|
| I guess what I'm trying to say is: there's all sorts.
|
| Edited to add: What 'contrarian1234 said in a sibling comment
| as well.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| Your story is similar to most of my friends' stories. We all
| grew up without any alcohol around and the default behavior
| is to crave the thing you're told not to have I suppose.
|
| Godspeed as long as you are it's master and not the other way
| around.
| nottorp wrote:
| Most anti alcohool people assume that if you start drinking
| socially you'll start to drink every day.
|
| Society could use more emphasis on self control.
| NovaDudely wrote:
| I have had my fair share of drinks over the years but it never
| took over my life, it is a nice middle ground of it is there
| but not a key feature.
|
| That said, you having never had a sip. Right on! Each to their
| own path and I completely get why some folks never try it. Just
| doesn't interest them and you cannot miss what you never had I
| guess.
| jack_pp wrote:
| I've been drunk, had a couple of beers and tried pretty much
| the whole spectrum of alcohol consumption and honestly I've
| never been a fan.
|
| It makes you stupider, less able to control your actions,
| your emotions and your thoughts. That allows for fights,
| hooking up randomly which isn't good for anybody and even
| makes people dependent on it in order to have sex.
|
| It basically makes you more like an animal and less like a
| human. People like it because they don't like being human,
| it's hard to have fun as a human, much easier to let go of
| your higher functions and behave on autopilot then blame it
| on whatever substance they're on for whatever stupid shit
| they did.
| IggleSniggle wrote:
| There was a period of my life where I felt I required it to
| work, but not to have fun. It was a programming job, but to
| get the work done I needed to be stupider and behave on
| autopilot.
|
| I do not recommend this. Dark times, and I am thankfully
| past this.
|
| But anyway, I agree with your premise. People do it to
| subdue their higher order thinking. If you've never wished
| to do this, then you might just be better suited (or better
| adapted) to your environment.
| specproc wrote:
| Ach, I understand, there are a lot of issues with alcohol. Had
| quite a journey myself.
|
| That said, I liked the article and might give this a go some
| time. My hearing is lousy for the same reasons as the author.
|
| Whilst I don't drink regularly I have many friends who do. My
| favourite place to have a catch up and a deep talk is on the
| hill walking my dog, but that's a bit intense for some friends,
| and cafes, restaurants and such can also be pretty noisy.
|
| Judging others' drinking misses the point of the article. As we
| age, we need different spaces and mechanisms for socialising.
| This is one I'd not thought of, and I enjoyed the author's
| solution and story.
| vintermann wrote:
| Don't know about ice cream specifically, but for rum cream,
| they use rum essence rather than rum liquor. You'd need so much
| liquor to get the flavor people expect, it wouldn't be creamy
| anymore. I expect the same is true of other rum-flavoured
| things. Rum essence can be alcohol-based, but propylene glycol
| also is common and works just fine.
| lynx23 wrote:
| Fascinating. You dont know about the other side, but you seem
| to know how bad it is. Sorry, but if you dont know about it,
| dont talk about it. Yes, alcohol has pretty bad effects on
| certain people, but condemning every sort of social gathering
| with drinks like you do, without having any experience, is just
| strange. Feels like a priest giving advice on sex, just dont do
| it...
| ramraj07 wrote:
| It's a good skill to cultivate to try and guess how your life
| will be after you make some permanent choices. I have always
| been thoughtful about those and have generally had a good
| track record guessing how my life changes after each (moving
| to a different country, moving from academia to tech, moving
| from single life to a relationship etc). There's always a
| possibility that I've missed on something by not drinking,
| but I'm yet to hear any person articulate that thing to me.
| ihateyouall3456 wrote:
| [dead]
| atoav wrote:
| As someone who grew up in a heavy drinking part of Europe, I
| never had an issue to meet friends without drinking, e.g.
| during the day. My fondest memories with them happened both
| with or without alcohol, that was never the factor.
|
| Granted, there _are_ people that you never meet outside of a
| bar or pub and there are people that always have to get a
| drink, but that might depend on the circles you are in.
|
| Alcohol certainly isn't healthy, and a heavily drunk person is
| certainly more unpleasant than let's say a heavily stoned one,
| yet I would not discount the amount of conversations that
| people dared to have just because they had a glas of wine
| before. Sure, I'd love people to open up without that glas and
| sure, some people won't be able to ever open up without it and
| that's bad, but most people don't overdo it with the alcohol,
| just like most people don't drink 4 kegs of coffee each day.
| Whether alcohol is a bad thing over all depends on the amount.
| sgt wrote:
| That's a valid opinion. Society would probably be much better
| off without alcohol. Ironically, I say this as someone who
| occasionally drinks (around 1-2 beers a week, at most). It's
| not about me, it's about the entire society that revolves
| around getting drunk. Parents who become entirely different
| people around their kids. Can't be good.
| Glawen wrote:
| there are societies without alcohol, in fact about 2 billions
| people are not drinking at all, what is better?
| sgt wrote:
| And many of those societies have huge issues on their own.
| Equality for example. But that's not related to alcohol.
| It's just.. human, I guess.
| sgt wrote:
| PS, do you really think muslim countries don't drink? They
| are in some ways the worst. The sheer amount of alcohol
| consumed by locals in places like Saudi Arabia, for
| example.
| nottorp wrote:
| Yeah, right. There is no contraband alcohol in muslim
| countries. Definitely.
| m0llusk wrote:
| Absolutism is often misguided, especially in light of history.
| This reminds me of the people saying the US and the West are a
| curse to the global south because of their constant meddling
| without giving credit for the green revolution and airplanes
| and so on. Similarly alcohol is indeed a poison with great
| social costs, but it is also a social lubricant which has
| enabled people to meet and exchange with others and has helped
| to start many long lasting relationships. Maybe it should just
| go away, but it probably will not.
| delta_p_delta_x wrote:
| > the US and the West are a curse to the global south
|
| There is much controversy around this, but by and large most
| people agree that US interference in South America, and
| English interference in the Middle East and South Asia in the
| late 19th and 20th centuries was a net negative for all the
| resulting countries. Much of American and English wealth was
| built on extracting resources and wealth out of these
| countries and concentrating them in Europe and the US. Heck,
| the very crown of the King of England has an Indian/Pakistani
| diamond in it.
| hardware2win wrote:
| >The conversations are more memorable and deep and happen at
| coffee shops, restaurants or on our way to those places.
|
| If you have never used alcohol / went to bar, then how do you
| know if you dont know the perspective?
|
| After alcohol people are more open tho.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| I didn't say I never went to a bar or pub. I still end up in
| one once a year or two. Every time it's just wasted. My
| friends say less interesting things more slurred. You don't
| realize how stupid you have to become to find drunk people
| conversations interesting. Jenga can be fun only if you're
| playing with a kid or if a drug has knocked most of your
| cerebral cortex offline.
| SamoyedFurFluff wrote:
| Jenga enjoyment doesn't really have much to do with
| cerebral cortex functioning imo. It's a simple game with
| simple rules, some minor stakes, and no capacity for
| completely bullshit strategies where a smug asshole can
| ruin the game for everyone else. This makes it broadly
| appealing, allows people to jump in and out as needed, and
| gives a conversation to be had around while not hoarding up
| the conversation with the game itself. This reads like
| someone who is justifying their personal choices by putting
| down the choices of others. If you don't drink, don't
| drink, but also there's no reason to go out and build straw
| man arguments about drinkers.
| hallway_monitor wrote:
| Drinking doesn't mean getting drunk, except to college
| kids. No friend of mine ever drinks to the point of
| slurring speech, it's a sign of a problem in an adult and
| quite distasteful. Drinking with friends is fun, getting
| drunk is stupid.
| dnh44 wrote:
| Alcohol is often lovingly referred to as a social
| lubricant. While some people (such as yourself apparently)
| have great social skills out of the box others like myself
| occasionally require the help of some Dutch courage when
| acting outside of our comfort zone and I think it is unfair
| to judge us so harshly for it.
| cedilla wrote:
| You mistake your very personal opinions for universal
| facts.
|
| A lot of people enjoy Jenga and other dexterity games. It's
| just not your cup of tea. But please stop telling yourself
| that you not liking Jenga is a sign of superior intellect.
| hardware2win wrote:
| One beer != drunk, it is just atmosphere adjuster
| larata_media wrote:
| I just have a hard time with crowded places in general, so I like
| this idea. However my partner would tell you that our house is
| the best bar in town. I can't agree or disagree because I tend
| that bar myself so I'm biased.
| bryanmgreen wrote:
| The best part of an empty bar to me isn't just the lack of noise,
| but total freedom to drink slowly. Delays the effects of
| inebriation and there is more time to relax and contemplate all
| your choices in life.
| mdekkers wrote:
| > contemplate all your choices in life.
|
| You make that sound like it is a good thing
| simonswords82 wrote:
| Depends on what choices you have made up to that point I'd
| say!
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Also depends on whether there's an end to it. Personally,
| my problem isn't the choices - it's that when I start to
| contemplate them, I end up thinking in circles within
| circles, forever looping with no change in sight.
| progmetaldev wrote:
| Thought loops and general anxiety over making decisions
| is quite common for me. Having an alcoholic drink
| generally calms my mind for a bit, but I don't like to
| overdo it and think of it as a sort of "medication." I do
| enjoy being able to let my guard down a bit and sit with
| a clear head, though.
| flkenosad wrote:
| Are there any thoughts you're avoiding on purpose? This
| is what happens to me when I'm trying not to think of
| something uncomfortable.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Trying to surface those ones is often how I got into the
| loops. As in, the uncomfortable thoughts were found,
| dealt with, and my mental process continued to run in
| circles, like in some videogames in which you have homing
| missiles fly in a circular "holding pattern" after losing
| target lock, until they reacquire or run out of fuel.
| wussboy wrote:
| May I suggest "Get out of your mind and on with your
| life"?
| [deleted]
| pjmorris wrote:
| That depends on what you choose to do next!
| belter wrote:
| Don't threaten me with a good time...
| jerrre wrote:
| what about a non-empty bar prohibits slow drinking?
| bee_rider wrote:
| I don't know if there's one that prohibits it (well, for any
| rule, it has been implemented somewhere, but this seems like
| it must be a rare one).
|
| I can imagine some general feeling of pressure to finish up
| in a crowded place, though.
| lizknope wrote:
| I've never worked in a bar or restaurant. I used to go and
| enjoy my food or drinks at my own pace and whenever the
| server would ask "Can I get you anything" I would respond
| "No" if I didn't need anything.
|
| A new friend that had worked in restaurants told me that the
| server is constantly asking because it is the polite way of
| saying "Order something or leave because you are wasting the
| revenue making potential of this table by just sitting here."
|
| Now I tend to watch the line waiting to get a table if we are
| finished and just talking. I would rather sit and talk but am
| I depriving the owner and staff of money? Maybe? Is that my
| problem? I don't know.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| There's a fine line between good service and "necessary"
| service. A good server is right there anticipating your
| needs and that "Can I get you anything?" is "What's next?"
| carefully timed to be at hand just as you finish the
| current drink so there's no lag between drinks. That server
| is doing a complex calculus of your drinking speed and the
| current bar's speed and trying to ask at the right moment
| that they can "just about read your mind", collect your
| next order, finish it in the right order at the bar and
| deliver just moments before you need it.
|
| The "necessary" service is indeed hopefully trying to do
| all of that, but also has to add in the calculus of the
| business needs and try to send polite messages when they
| think turning over the table entirely is better for
| business. Keep in mind, that isn't always the case: a
| higher tip on a few more (higher margin) drinks is just as
| useful to the business sometimes as the turnover time just
| to end up with someone ordering just lower margin foods and
| giving a bad tip.
|
| I have found that if you are curious if you are getting the
| "good" service or the "necessary" service in that moment,
| it's easiest and best to ask. They may feel too polite to
| say something unprompted, but they are almost always happy
| to answer direct questions if you are kind about how you
| ask (and if you can give an apology if you find out that
| you have taken too much time). I've found that asking also
| sometimes opens up interesting responses. Again, keep in
| mind that a good tip on a "slow drinker" can always be a
| "bird in the hand" that a server doesn't want to waste on a
| possible "two in the bush". I've been invited/welcomed to
| take a conversation (or my book in cases of dining alone)
| to a bar or a lower revenue table before (maybe one with
| less of "a view" or a smaller size). I've been asked to tip
| out a server switching shifts, with no need to close the
| full tab, and then treated generously by the incoming
| server for saving them end of shift math and making their
| coworker happy. I've had appetizers or drinks entirely
| comped just because I was nice enough to ask if the server
| needed the table, apologized for the inconvenience to them,
| and the server hoped I'd return during a less busy shift.
|
| I don't think it is my problem to pick up "hints" when
| servers are being too polite, and I'm not the one paid to
| do the calculus of what's best for the customer (me) versus
| what is best for the business. I try my best to present as
| the best "bird in the hand" that I can so that a server is
| never resentful of me taking up their service at the
| expense of whatever line may or may not exist. The line is
| of no concern to me. One of the ways to present as a good
| "bird in the hand" is to ask if I'm taking too much time,
| drinking too slow, and then no matter the response I get
| back, I know that I should be appreciative of whatever the
| response. Sometimes the response is truly "you are fine,
| take your time" (which is perhaps the one hardest skill,
| because of course you will get that a lot when servers
| think they need to be polite, versus when that is the real
| answer), and when that it the real answer I always deeply
| appreciate that. It can be nice to feel recognized that you
| are a good customer and the server knows they have a good
| "bird in the hand" and doesn't want to waste the
| opportunity. I always try to appreciate that (especially
| when you know there is a line of envious birds in the
| bush).
|
| (ETA: I nearly forgot possibly the best advice I've picked
| up over the years: depending on the type of restaurant, the
| best person to ask what the expected turnover time for a
| table is almost always the Host. They get tipped indirectly
| from the servers so they have even fewer reasons to give
| polite answers rather than real answers. It's directly
| their job to manage the balancing act of turnovers and
| lines/waiting lists/reservations. Often you can ask before
| you are even seated and get a great approximation so that
| you can appropriately pace yourself. I've also asked them
| sometimes, when I arrived during a slow time on the sort of
| night where I expect that to change abruptly, to let me
| know if anything changes and they find a need to turnover
| the table "soon" and have won brownie points with
| restaurants that way as well. You also get a great feel for
| a restaurant asking the Host questions about expected
| turnover. You'd sometimes be surprised how many restaurants
| have expected turnovers closer to four hours than the one
| and a half most people think of a "meal time", what that
| says about how they try to pace the meals themselves,
| including after dinner drinks, and sometimes what that says
| about their margins and business model. A good restaurant
| may not need fast turnovers, it may be more than happy with
| slow ones.)
| galleywest200 wrote:
| Im not sure that makes me want to drink faster. If I
| ordered a pint and an appetizer then I am going to sit and
| read the news while I consume them. If you want any more of
| my money, or wish for me to ever return, you will not get
| pushy with me.
| rounakdatta wrote:
| When you're with friends/acquaintances, you'd have to catch
| up with the average speed of the group. Otherwise you might
| not be able to enjoy all the series of things that get
| ordered. Probably what the commenter meant.
| nottorp wrote:
| Isn't it "the most empty" ?
| lr4444lr wrote:
| Most superlatives in English are interchangeably "most X" and
| "Xest".
| taeric wrote:
| Second time in a week or so I've had reason to link to
| https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/cafeRestaurantNoiseGenerat....
| If you are just looking for the sound of a place, this is a great
| resource.
| freilanzer wrote:
| I'm a paying customer of that site and it's worth it.
| licnep wrote:
| I always wondered if bars and clubs actually get inspected to
| check the dB level emitted by their sound systems, some places
| seem way too loud to be safe for people's hearing.
| zigman1 wrote:
| I'm not sure how common it is in other places, but in Belgium
| most of the bars and clubs have a visible screen which always
| shows the current decibels in the venue. Some of them have have
| free earplugs to take and concert venue have dispensers with
| concert specific earplug to buy.
| SSLy wrote:
| orrrr they could tone down the mids and highs
| jerrre wrote:
| AFAIK for hearing damage frequency does not matter
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Having a display in the sound booth is mandatory in France.
| Because the sound booth is usually in the middle of the
| stage, it is usually visible to the public too.
|
| The maximum level is 102dB over 15 minutes. When I look at
| the screen in a loud venue (EDM, rock concert, ...), it is
| usually around 100dB, which more than justifies earplugs.
|
| Free foam earplugs are common too, and they also sell better
| sounding earplugs in larger events. Personally, I bought
| custom molded earplugs, the type used by musicians. Expensive
| (~$200) but in my case 100% worth it: the others I tried tend
| to fall off, seal poorly, or be uncomfortable, and in the
| case of the cheapest ones (like the ones you get for free),
| completely muddle the sound.
| dolmen wrote:
| Any purchase advice? I'm in France too.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| I have the Interson Protac Pianissimo, with 25dB filters,
| I had them made at my local audiologist (Amplifon) a few
| years ago.
|
| I am very satisfied, and I never suffered any kind of
| hearing loss or tinnitus after wearing these and while
| not perfectly linear, I could fully enjoy the music. If
| anything 25dB is a bit too much for "reasonably" loud
| events and I am tempted to buy extra filters with less
| attenuation for these events.
| pavon wrote:
| I'm from the US, but have been very happy with etymotic
| brand earplugs. They have inexpensive ($15 USD) standard
| designs as well as custom-fit. Either sound much better
| than foam plugs.
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| It's usually because they play music and only have like 1
| crappy speaker, so they have to blast sound out of that
| speaker, and anyone nearby has to scream to have a conversation
| over the speaker, and then anyone near that group has to scream
| even louder, and before you know it - everyone is screaming and
| you can't even hear the music.
| ycombinete wrote:
| Almost _all_ bars and clubs are too loud by a large degree. I
| started keeping track of decibel levels when I developed
| tinnitus, and at minimum a pub with a live band is going to be
| 20-30db too loud.
|
| For this reason I always have a pair of ear plugs of some kind.
| Loop Experience, or even just regular foam (depending on the
| noise level and how well dressed I'm expected to be).
| automatic6131 wrote:
| You can buy custom fit earplugs with changeable sound filters.
| There are lines specifically for bars, clubs and festivals for
| the staff to hear patrons speech but drown out the noise.
| larrysalibra wrote:
| A bit over a decade ago, I met the founder of a company called
| EarPeace [1] that makes volume-reducing earplugs for music
| festivals in a bar in a suburb of Guangzhou. He gave me his pitch
| about the irony of how people who love music end up damaging
| their hearing by going to loud music festivals, concerts and
| bars. I've always been sensitive to keeping the volume of
| headphones low, but had never thought about the danger of loud
| environmental noise in entertainment venues. I guess I always
| assumed that making your best customers slowly deaf surely
| wouldn't be very good for business. I mean, they're already
| poisoning our livers and making us hungover, they certainly
| wouldn't also make us deaf, would they?
|
| Ever since then, I've carried a set of EarPeace around on my
| keychain and used them religiously in loud environments. When I
| owned a Vespa for ~5 years in Hong Kong, I'd always put them in
| before driving....motorcycle forums are filled with bikers who
| have destroyed their hearing from wind noise.
|
| Once apple watch added the ability to warn us about loud noises,
| level and time allowing me to quantify the potential damaging
| sound levels I'd been avoiding all of these years, it was pretty
| shocking. Bars and club can easily come in over 100 dbs and 110
| db isn't really that rare.
|
| I highly recommend some sort of volume reducing earplugs - not
| only do you protect your hearing, but it also makes going out
| much more comfortable. By reducing the volume of instead of
| blocking the sounds, you can make out more detail of the music
| and what other people are saying.
|
| Edit: on the same note, does anyone know if earbuds with active
| noise cancelation like airpods pro offer similar hearing
| protection benefits?
|
| 1: https://www.earpeace.com/
| faeyanpiraat wrote:
| I've just recently got a new headphone, and was so enthusiastic
| about it I listened to it for a day on loud volume, and got
| Tinnitus because of that.
|
| The scary part is that it did not hurt, so my body didn't
| notify me that I'm doing something wrong!!
|
| It's been over a month and the ringing is still not gone, it
| may never will.
|
| PLEASE be careful about your hearing guys, doctors CANNOT DO
| ANYTHING about it if you screw it up.
| baccredited wrote:
| there are some TDCS treatments for tinnitus that seem to work
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30359234/
|
| But I'm pretty sure they are only available in the EU for
| now, not the USA
| faeyanpiraat wrote:
| I've stumbled upon a so called "acoustic neuromodulation"
| treatment option, which in theory rewires the faulty brain
| circuitry by only using sound (non invasive), but not sure
| where can I actually enroll in this.
|
| https://med.stanford.edu/kbplab/research/recent-
| publications...
|
| https://classic.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT0143
| 5...
|
| https://classic.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT0154
| 1...
| Lio wrote:
| This is an interesting video on tinnitus by ENT surgeon Vic
| Veer[1].
|
| He suggests that tinnitus may be caused by a feedback loop in
| the brain and why they think that.
|
| While that's scaring in itself, it does mean that there are
| things you can do to alleviate it.
|
| 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4zuVk5STuM
| faeyanpiraat wrote:
| Thanks for the resource will look into this.
|
| Do you happen to have any experience with
| experiencing/treating Tinnitus?
| Lio wrote:
| I only have experience with having it I'm afraid.
|
| I find it comes and goes with things like stress and
| tiredness.
|
| Sometimes I'm very aware of it and others much less so.
|
| The best amateur advice I can give is to try to think of
| it like the sound of the sea or white noise in the
| background. It's not, obviously, but I like the sound of
| sea so it makes it more ...bearable.
|
| Hope that help even a little.
| nicolaslem wrote:
| > doctors CANNOT DO ANYTHING about it if you screw it up.
|
| There is a window of time of a few days after being exposed
| to loud noises where actions can be taken to reduce the
| likelihood of long term damage. So actually if you screw it
| up please go see a doctor immediately.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Some more good news: I had severe tinnitus at some point
| (some years ago) and bit by bit it faded. So long term you
| may have some recovery (or not... but at least for me it
| got a bit better).
| snerbles wrote:
| Never did for me.
|
| I haven't heard silence in over twenty years.
| cryptonector wrote:
| Maybe you just got used to it.
| Eisenstein wrote:
| What are the actions?
| jaeckel wrote:
| Hyperbaric chamber is the only thing I'm aware of against
| tinnitus. But you should have the first session within
| 24h
| faeyanpiraat wrote:
| Also if you experience severe hearing loss (50%+), IV
| steroids (in 48h) in the Hospital.
|
| In my case I did not get any hearing loss, so it was not
| applicable for me.
| zigman1 wrote:
| It took me only one gig with an earplugs to start using them
| religiously, carrying them with me at all times on my keychain,
| same way you mentioned.
|
| Once you put them out during a gig and hear just how LOUD the
| place is, is really a strange sensation.
|
| I think it is fairly common now, at least with those who go to
| concerts regularly. Now I see most of the people wearing them,
| and some places even offer free ones on the bar counter.
| tetha wrote:
| I would recommend getting good plugs though. Bad cheap plugs
| make you hear nothing.
|
| On the other hand, I have some Senner Earplugs. Those are
| amazing - they take away a lot of sound pressure at lower
| freqencies, but let most higher frequencies through. This
| way, you can still hear toplines, vocals, melodies clearly,
| but the bass + drums don't kill your ears.
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| I want the reverse: earplugs that effectively block kids
| crying or even just talking, but are still comfortable to
| wear for 8 ~ 14 hours on a plane.
| zigman1 wrote:
| Yep, I agree. That's another thing that is fascinating at
| first when you start using earplugs. You actually hear the
| instruments better, almost as an isolated track
| eptcyka wrote:
| Audio engineers wear earplugs for the soundcheck. If you
| want to listen to a gig the way it was engineered to
| sound, you should wear a pair too.
| badpun wrote:
| > I guess I always assumed that making your best customers
| slowly deaf surely wouldn't be very good for business.
|
| Many venues with loud music caters to young people. Destroying
| their hearing is not a big problem, because they'll soon get
| tired/bored of your place (or the scene in general) and a new
| generation of young customers will come to replace them.
| n1b0m wrote:
| "I guess I always assumed that making your best customers
| slowly deaf surely wouldn't be very good for business. I mean,
| they're already poisoning our livers and making us hungover,
| they certainly wouldn't also make us deaf, would they?"
|
| Same reason I still smoke
| intrasight wrote:
| I've now for about 20 years always have two pair of ear plugs
| on my person. I use the 3M corded ones. $7 for three pairs. One
| pair for me and one pair was for my daughter. She's off on her
| own now but having another pair for a friend is a good thing. I
| am surprised by the number of venues where I feel the need to
| wear them. One is my gym. Reading this did inspire me to go
| shopping for another pair. I just ordered the Loop. I like that
| they don't stick out.
| strogonoff wrote:
| Why would one ever choose to own a motorcycle in a place like
| Hong Kong with its utter absence of places to ride and
| excellent round the clock public transport system? Is it the
| fun of waiting in 100 degree weather under hot air vents of bus
| and private car air conditioners? Unless one works in delivery
| gig economy, there just don't seem to be any good reasons.
|
| Thankfully there are fewer motorcycles here than in many Asian
| countries (Taiwan!), but sadly they still exist and in this
| climate ear infections from constantly wearing earplugs or
| headphones with ANC are easy to get and not fun.
| _Algernon_ wrote:
| Starting to use ear plugs allowed me to actually enjoy
| concerts. Before I always stood awkwardly in the back, or if
| not, be worried about my ears the whole time.
|
| With earplugs I can be at the front, feel the base and not
| worry. Worth it for that experience alone.
|
| I bought the plugs recommended by Tom Scott in [1], and they're
| fine for the purpose. Long term getting ones that are fitted to
| my ears is on my list.
|
| [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzJePUquk1o
| lizknope wrote:
| I also didn't like concerts for 20 years because they were
| way too loud. I would take cheap foam earplugs for mowing the
| lawn and all you could hear/feel was bass.
|
| Then I got some Etymotic high fidelity earplugs and concerts
| are enjoyable. They reduce all frequencies equally so the
| music still sounds good.
| accrual wrote:
| Nice story and glad you found a solution you like to use. I'm
| all for promoting earplug use in daily life. Hearing loss isn't
| even the worst outcome from sound exposure - tinnitus/ear
| ringing (and worse still) hyperacousis (painful response to
| sound) can occur without warning in loud environments. It's
| shockingly easy to lose one's ability to "hear" silence, and
| it's often taken for granted until it's gone.
|
| On the plus side, I don't spend lots of money on silent PC
| components. :)
| Toutouxc wrote:
| > does anyone know if earbuds with active noise cancelation
| like airpods pro offer similar hearing protection benefits
|
| Yes, ANC headphones do protect your hearing, but they offer
| weaker protection than specialized heavy-duty equipment like
| you'd find on a construction site or a shooting range. When
| using your AirPods Pro your Apple Watch will even factor that
| in its noise measurements and show you the original noise level
| and the one that your ears are actually subject to thanks to
| ANC. For example if I sit right next to a loud vacuum cleaner
| my Watch says 85 dB, but when I enable ANC on my AirPods Pro 2
| it drops down to 62 dB.
|
| One issue is than ANC can't predict and sometimes react fast
| enough to sudden loud noises, so if an engine backfires next to
| you, your ANC headphones will take a few miliseconds to catch
| up and will allow the original sound (minus their inherent
| (passive) sound isolation) to reach your ear.
| kqr wrote:
| > One issue is than ANC can't predict and sometimes react
| fast enough to sudden loud noises, so if an engine backfires
| next to you, your ANC headphones will take a few miliseconds
| to catch up and will allow the original sound (minus their
| inherent (passive) sound isolation) to reach your ear.
|
| On the other hand, isn't the time spent exposed to loud
| sounds what counts for hearing damage? I.e. one should be
| less worried precisely about the sorts of things ANC is bad
| at dealing with?
| Toutouxc wrote:
| I imagine it would matter more for more dangerous noise
| levels and environments, like a shooting range, where even
| a single shot fired without protection can cause damage,
| and while some of the better ANC headphones would be able
| to noticeably suppress a different, sustained, noise of
| similar intensity, they wouldn't be able to protect you
| against gunshots.
| constantly wrote:
| It depends on noise level. You're right though generally.
| One can safely listen to 85dB for 8 hours before hearing
| loss starts. Up that to 91dB and you have just two hours.
| 97dB quarters it again and one can be exposed to only 30
| mins. But once one gets to loud sounds like sirens,
| gunshots, firecrackers in the 120-150dB range onset of
| permanent hearing loss can be instant.
| literalAardvark wrote:
| We do know: ANC doesn't reduce sound pressure, thus it doesn't
| protect hearing.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| ANC uses destructive interference to quite literally cancel
| the sound waves coming from the outside. It reduces sound
| pressure by definition.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| I don't believe this is true, it doesn't make sense from a
| physics perspective. Could you explain what you mean?
| wthomp wrote:
| Would you mind explaining this further? Since sound is
| literally pressure waves, I don't understand how reducing
| sound can still leave "sound pressure".
| lhoff wrote:
| ANC works by detecting the outside noise, deriving how
| these noises reach you ear and then play the antiwave so
| that in cancels out. The issue is that the canceling out
| part only works on the receiving end so there is still
| pressure on the eardrum even if you don't hear it.
|
| I still think that ANC is good for the ears by reducing the
| needed volume in every day situations. And it also helps
| that most ANC headphones are designed in a way that also
| passively isolates the outside world to reduce the burden
| on the ANC and as a side effect also on your ears.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| > pressure on the eardrum even if you don't hear it
|
| Hearing is literally "pressure [changes] on the eardrum".
| Unless it's outside the frequency range of our hearing,
| if there's waves hitting your eardrum, you hear them.
|
| So either you're not expressing yourself clearly enough
| our you've seriously misunderstood how sound works.
| pkilgore wrote:
| https://youtu.be/VIi04uD8LtY
|
| Constant elevated pressure created by ANC working to
| destructively interfere with an external sound waves is
| not perceived as sound.
|
| But it _is_ extra pressure on the eardrum.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| But why would there be elevated pressure? Headphones
| can't pump air into your ear, they can only make it
| wiggle back and forth. ANC headphones use the same
| speaker that normally plays your music and just mix the
| noise-cancelling sound into your music, nothing else.
| When you aren't playing any music, outside noise makes
| the air wiggle back and forth and the membrane of the
| speaker makes the air wiggle back and forth in the
| opposite phase. These movements destructively interfere,
| resulting in the air staying still.
|
| BTW where in the video do they mention elevated pressure?
| abhaynayar wrote:
| I see this is downvoted and people are asking for an
| explanation, and I don't have any backing for this either,
| but I'll share my experience. I have an "issue" with my left
| ear that makes it feel muffled, and distorted, and painful at
| loud noises. I have been to a few doctors but they weren't
| able to diagnose it, need to get it checked at a better
| doctor I guess.
|
| I can definitely feel my issue get exacerbated with ANC even
| when I am not playing any music or playing music at low
| volume (have tried several devices including airpods where my
| issue is the worst, probably because their ANC is the best).
| So there is definitely something going on with ANC such that
| even when I have it on with extremely low volume music, it
| triggers my issue. -- Even when at the same "perceived
| volume" of non-ANC sounds the issue doesn't get triggered.
|
| So much so that I do not use ANC. The issue gets triggered
| within seconds of when I start using it. So instead I just
| play music on very very low sound on my wireless earphones.
|
| I don't why it happens with ANC, would love to know.
| dgellow wrote:
| I had to disable the Apple Watch high decibel alerts feature
| because it was triggering way too often: at train stations,
| when taking the subway, walking in the city center, any type of
| construction work, etc. Before that point I didn't realize how
| crazy loud cities are, somehow my brain just dealt with it, and
| now I feel I cannot unsee it.
| dijit wrote:
| Not all cities are like this, but when I go to the USA I am
| always shocked by how insanely loud the major cities are. New
| York being the worst, but Philly and LA aren't significantly
| far away.
|
| Germany also seems to have this problem, at least in Munich,
| where there are 6 lane roads in the middle of the city and no
| sound isolation at all for construction.
|
| I think London for me is too noisy, but it's a _far_ cry from
| New York which felt like an assault on my ears the entire
| time I was there; such that when I returned to London I felt
| bad for complaining about it.
| ethanbond wrote:
| Worth always remembering (and a trip to many major European
| cities will confirm): it's not _cities_ that are loud, but
| cars.
|
| Of course trains are pretty bad too but you don't tend to
| be surrounded by trains all day every day, even in NYC and
| especially in Philly, DC, LA, Seattle, Boston, Phoenix,
| Houston, Vegas, etc, all of which are extremely loud.
| jraby3 wrote:
| https://archive.is/6lUvm
| alfiedotwtf wrote:
| Reading through the comments, nobody has mentioned it, but I'm
| curious... why don't people just drink at home? It's way cheaper,
| less of a risk to get into a fight, no travel time to bed etc?
|
| I get clubbing. You can't really replicate the dance floor and
| music at home. But a bar?
| jonasdegendt wrote:
| I've met a lot of interesting people just sitting at the bar by
| myself, it's a really low stakes way to meet new people.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| It's a roll of the dice.
|
| I'd rather pre-screen the people online first before I meet
| them, or meet people at special interest clubs or events. I'm
| way more likely to meet someone I have something in common
| with that way than meeting random people at a bar.
|
| Not to mention that at a bar I'm much more likely to meet the
| kind of people that hang out in bars, which from my
| experience haven't been the kind of people I like.
| nrb wrote:
| Meeting people that you have very little in common with
| over a drink is one of the pros of these sort of low-stakes
| interactions. Sometimes it's just brief pleasantries
| exchanged, sometimes an opportunity to learn something new,
| other times a new friend made for the evening or beyond.
| [deleted]
| twic wrote:
| You select people by picking the right bar. You probably
| won't get terribly interesting conversation in the Slug &
| Lettuce on the high street (although you might). I have had
| interesting conversations in little bars in the arty (or at
| least, pretentious twentysomething) part of town, or well-
| concealed specifically cocktailish bars in Paris.
| jjgreen wrote:
| Me too, but a lot of mad-as-a-badger nut-jobs too; not
| knowing which you'll get is half of the fun ...
| carlosjobim wrote:
| Because your neighbours complain when you're throwing parties
| all the time or being loud at night.
|
| That's why it's called a "pub": A public house. It's a place
| specifically for being loud at night.
|
| If people didn't have neighbours who wanted to sleep, nobody
| would go to a pub, it would just be house parties all the time.
| In rural areas it is.
| derefr wrote:
| Their point was in the context of the article, which is about
| trying to find a _quiet_ place to drink _alone_. How is
| _that_ not "your own house"?
| carlosjobim wrote:
| You're absolutely right.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| Believe it or not many bars and pubs have neighbors that also
| want to sleep.
| jsnider3 wrote:
| They should've thought of that before moving next to a bar.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| Maybe the bar opened after they moved in.
|
| And some people don't have the luxury of living somewhere
| quiet, though they would much rather do so.
| flir wrote:
| Set and setting. The drug has a different effect in a crowd, in
| a small group, alone.
| BbzzbB wrote:
| Could it be coming from within if you get yourself in bar
| fights often enough to make it a consideration for not going
| out?
|
| I've had my fair share of bars and clubs. Never once got
| remotely close to be involved in a fight, it's not something
| that even crosses my mind as a potential issue.
| gotaran wrote:
| I live in a cramped pre war studio in Manhattan. There's
| countless bars a 5 minute walk from me - including hotel bars.
| SamoyedFurFluff wrote:
| Bars often vary ingredients that I wouldn't purchase for myself
| and therefore allows me to try a variety of drinks that I can't
| make by myself. Also, alcohol and socializing is a positive
| feedback loop for many people.
| the_only_law wrote:
| Sometimes I just need to get the fuck out of my place.
| bregma wrote:
| It's much more preferable to drink alone at home than to go out
| to a bar. I understand people who wax enthusiastic about bars
| will disagree, and are far more likely to read the headline and
| post a comment here.
| throwawaaarrgh wrote:
| Bartenders are the cheapest therapist.
| hospitalJail wrote:
| ChatGPT is healthier and cheaper.
|
| EDIT: the parent suggested that alcohol and an untrained
| therapist is cheaper. I posted something that is cheaper and
| healthier since it wont ruin your liver. Not to mention,
| chatgpt is actually trained on CBT.
| OkayPhysicist wrote:
| 1) Change of scenery: Especially since I started working from
| home, I often need an excuse to "go touch grass".
|
| 2) Human interaction: At the very least, there's going to be a
| bartender, and most of the time at least one other person
| sitting at the bar. Not interacting with other humans face-to-
| face often enough leads to madness.
|
| 3) Variety: I don't stock every beer, liquor, and cocktail
| ingredient known to man at home (despite my best efforts).
|
| And frankly, that "less risk of getting in a fight" comment is
| probably the biggest one. Not because I'm particularly rowdy,
| but because it's indicative of a larger theme: at home,
| drinking alone, I know exactly what's going to happen. I'm
| going to have 2 or 4 pretty good drinks, watch some streaming
| shows, maybe play some videogames, and go to sleep. A bar has
| the allure of entropy. Interesting things might happen. I might
| see a fight, I might talk to someone with an interesting story,
| I might taste something I've never tasted before. The lack of
| predictability is a selling point unto itself.
| drewmol wrote:
| Drinking tend to make a lot of people more sociable, and enjoy
| talking to others. By going to a bar where others are also
| drinking you have a place where there will be similarly extra-
| sociable-from-drinking people to interact with. If you've ever
| had a friend or family member who likes to call and talk
| whenever they are drinking and you are sober and find the
| conversation trying - you can understand the draw a social
| atmosphere where (most) everyone will be drinking.
| r00fus wrote:
| Half of going to a bar is to have a change of pace. Either to
| meet people or to have a separate place to contemplate and
| relax that isn't at home.
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| What's the range of drinks that you carry at home? How many
| cocktails do you know how to make? Do you have the ingredients
| to make them? What happens when a drunk guest spills his beer
| on your carpet? What happens when some acquaintances bring
| acquaintances that bring acquaintances? How do you continue the
| party? Does everyone have to drive to the club? Isn't everyone
| drunk already?
|
| I see plenty of reasons without even going to the fact that
| it's just about going out.
|
| I get your point if your idea of going to the bar is to have a
| pint with your wife on Sunday afternoon, which is a valid idea
| of going to the bar. But it's just not the case for a lot of
| people, and not the topic of the article.
| smcl wrote:
| It's a bit more social - the local bars I go to I know loads of
| people who go, I know the bar staff. There's little-to-no risk
| of fighting and this is true for most bars here unless you
| really wanted to find trouble (i.e. you sought out a football
| bar and went in loudly declaring your love for Sparta Prague
| and calling the local team shite). Re travel time, where I go
| is usually about 10 minutes walk home ... but if I have my dog
| then this is no different from drinking at home since before
| bed I need to take him ~10 minutes around the block anyway
| after I was done for the night.
|
| I appreciate that this isn't true for everywhere.
| nrb wrote:
| On the topic of the general appeal of a public watering hole,
| I'll direct you to a passage from the intro music of the
| seminal sitcom Cheers (which itself touches on your very
| question):
|
| Sometimes you wanna go
|
| Where everybody knows your name
|
| And they're always glad you came
|
| You wanna be where you can see
|
| Our troubles are all the same
|
| You wanna be where everybody knows your name
| twic wrote:
| Right but you don't got to a hotel bar for that!
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| One of my biggest culture shocks in moving from Ireland to the
| Netherlands is around the usage of bars as social spaces.
|
| At home I thought of bars primarily as a place to meet new
| people. I'd head down about once a week alone, with just my
| newspaper and a free afternoon, and generally end up chatting
| with someone about the news until we headed out for dinner
| together.
|
| Even if I went out with friends I'd always expect to mix with
| another group or pick up someone who had been alone, then end the
| night partying further at the house of some strangers.
|
| When I arrived in the NL I had assumed this was a universal
| thing, but quickly found myself being told off by strangers when
| I tried starting conversations, as they were "just out for a
| quiet drink."
|
| This was very alien to me, though I quickly became accustomed to
| it and no longer go to bars except for drinks with colleagues
| after work, or when I'm in another city and visit the Irish pub
| for a sense of the old days that never quite materialises.
|
| After a while I wondered if it was simply that I was getting
| older, but I recently visited home for the first time since
| before Covid. I went for a walk while visiting my mother and
| decided to stop for a quick Guinness while reading my book. I
| wasn't on the second page when a passing woman stopped to ask me
| what I was reading. I explained it was in Dutch and we had a
| whole conversation about her brother working in Amsterdam. I
| couldn't believe it! These experiences continued for the entire
| week.
|
| I guess to bring it back to the article, the best bar in town is
| very culture dependant and can change drastically depending on
| what you're hoping to get from your visit there.
| skrebbel wrote:
| I'm Dutch and wow Ireland sounds amazing.
|
| We have that _a bit_ in coffee bars but it's way more subdued
| than what you describe. Over beers in NL people will pretty
| much assume you're an alcoholic / basket case for trying to
| connect with a random group of strangers.
| mettamage wrote:
| Yep, but you can make it work. I'm a Dutchie too.
|
| Most people don't believe me, but there's always a hack :)
| smw wrote:
| Don't leave us hanging!
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| Please elaborate...
| mandeepj wrote:
| > The best place to drink is the emptiest bar in the city
|
| I don't just visit a bar for drinks alone; socializing is part
| of the experience as well.
|
| > At home I thought of bars primarily as a place to meet new
| people. I'd head down about once a week alone, with just my
| newspaper and a free afternoon, and generally end up chatting
| with someone about the news until we headed out for dinner
| together.
|
| Thanks for sharing that. I've added Ireland in my travel bucket
| list. I hope I'll have a similar experience
| fatnoah wrote:
| > One of my biggest culture shocks in moving from Ireland to
| the Netherlands
|
| I've only been to Ireland once, but I absolutely loved how the
| local pub felt like the shared living room for the town. It was
| so different from my experience at most bars in the US (there
| are some that also fit this bill, but they're rare). I ended up
| going there every night I was in town for dinner and a pint,
| and some friendly chit-chat.
| slothtrop wrote:
| I had read elsewhere that in Iceland, the swimming pools fill
| that social role. They have a very strong culture surrounding
| that.
|
| It seems to me there's basically no equivalent in the U.S. &
| Canada, or at least, not one that is consistent across the
| countries. There's a coffee shop "culture", but not in the
| capacity of striking up conversation.
|
| We end up using contrived means to merely signal to one
| another that we want to talk (i.e. social apps). These would
| be rendered redundant if there was a "space" where this was
| expected. Maybe the virtualized always-online shift of daily
| life has destroyed this. I would grant that there are Irish
| Pubs in the area that are frequented by older regulars, where
| striking up conversation is probably more of an expectation,
| but young people don't go there.
| skciva wrote:
| In the US it exists but you have to be a bit more aware of
| body language and such. Not everyone is as open. But
| generally communities exist all around you in the US, you
| may just not be aware of them.*
|
| * This is strictly in the cities. Suburban life is where
| isolation and loneliness thrive.
| sfink wrote:
| The cities and the countryside, actually. In rural areas,
| you may spend most of your time in your own territory,
| but when you encounter other people they'll probably stop
| and chat. (For one, when your cows get out and into your
| neighbor's field for the 6th time that year, you want to
| be on good enough terms to be able to go fetch them
| back...)
|
| Suburbia is where we can have exactly what we think we
| want, and thereby discover that we're wrong.
| slothtrop wrote:
| I talk to my neighbors in the suburbs, something that has
| never occurred in denser areas. There's no reason for
| 'burbs by function and design to be "less friendly" than
| the countryside.
| slothtrop wrote:
| Examples?
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| Canada and the USA are generally still places where you can
| strike up conversation with people at bars and carry on a
| conversation about sports or whatever. It doesn't really
| get much deeper than that, though, and good luck running
| into any smart opinions if you bother to try... I just
| remember encountering a ton of bigoted drunken ranting.
| derefr wrote:
| Hypothesis: an implicit secondary reason that so many young
| people want to be social-media "influencers", is that
| holding a microphone and having a cameraman following you,
| creates a magic circle of this kind of "space" around your
| own person, such that people who ordinarily would never
| give you the time of day will be perfectly willing to talk
| to you _for a video_.
| tezgon wrote:
| I wouldn't say they're very rare. Go to literally any town in
| Wisconsin that's not Madison or Milwaukee and you will find
| an environment very similar to GP's description of Ireland.
| soligern wrote:
| That's how it feels in the US as well anywhere outside the
| largest city and honestly dives feel that way in big cities
| too.
| lordnacho wrote:
| Perhaps it used to be a thing in the US? Cheers was set in
| Boston, right? Then again, Boston is known for having a lot
| of Irish influence.
| JohnFen wrote:
| But Cheers was only that way for the main characters. Look
| at all of the background patrons for contrast.
| fatnoah wrote:
| There is a bar around the corner from Cheers that
| actually did feel like the neighborhood "living room" to
| me. When you see a bar where ages range from a few months
| to 80+ years, you're on the right track.
| miobrien wrote:
| Fascinating observation.
| dncornholio wrote:
| This is why I visited the coffeeshops, not to smoke, but to
| play pool and socialise. People in there are way more open to
| small talks.
| j7ake wrote:
| The funniest story I heard about cultural differences is the
| clash of Irish and NL cultures.
|
| A young Irish university student just arrived to his new
| apartment in NL for exchange.
|
| Shortly after settling into his apartment, a Dutch woman
| knocked on his door.
|
| She said "Hello, you must be new here. I want to let you know
| that we are having a party today."
|
| Excited about a potential party, he replied, "wow great! What
| time does it start? And can I bring something?".
|
| Dutch woman gives him a stare and raised eyebrow, "No, you are
| not invited. I just wanted to let you know there will be a
| party. If it is too loud please let us know."
|
| And that was how this young Irish man was introduced to the
| famous Dutch culture.
| mabbo wrote:
| Reading you're description, all I can think is "I want to live
| in Ireland". That sounds like a cultural trait that should be
| treasured.
|
| In Canada, the only time you might talk to a stranger at a bar
| is if you're trying to hit on them.
| mrits wrote:
| When I' traveling alone for work I almost always have a chat
| with someone at a hotel bar.
| professor_x wrote:
| Irish people are just insanely delightful
| deepspace wrote:
| Actually, that depends on the type of bar. At a Donnelly
| Group bar, absolutely.
|
| But at the older not-quite-dive bars, often attached to a
| motel and frequented by truckers, good conversation between
| strangers can still be had.
|
| Unfortunately, those bars are disappearing rapidly. 25 years
| ago, I lived across the street from one, and there were
| another two nearby. Maybe five or six in my neighbourhood.
| Now there is only one left, and it is struggling to stay
| open.
| 0xfaded wrote:
| Something I learned from an Irish friend is that the (real)
| Irish pubs function as a global support network. If you need a
| job, for example, you can find the local pub and chances are
| someone can help you out.
| taway1874 wrote:
| Feels good to just read that there is such a magical place on
| earth. USA used to be that way but it's quite not the same now.
| That's it!! I'm moving to Ireland.
| lordnacho wrote:
| In the Germanic countries I've been to, the thing to do seems
| to be to join a club of some sort. Like a rowing club or
| something like that.
|
| I find it odd tbh, I'd rather have the model you're describing.
| rex_gallorum2 wrote:
| In Germany for example it's the _only_ way. Join the club and
| hang around their private bar!
| patrickk wrote:
| The volunteer fire service is a prime example. In some
| towns they have incredible facilities. It's basically a
| drinking club.
| peteforde wrote:
| 100% cultural.
|
| I empathize with your description of easy socialization, but I
| remain firmly in the "I don't mean to be rude, but what part of
| my book and body language makes you think I want to talk to
| strangers right now" camp.
| dogleash wrote:
| > what part of my book and body language makes you think I
| want to talk to strangers right now
|
| That you're reading at a bar instead of reading at home.
|
| I have a friend that reads at bars, because he likes random
| conversations but needs something to do in between them.
| jmoak3 wrote:
| That's so alien to me - when I read at a coffee shop or a bar
| I'm there to interact and have the book as something to do in
| the interim.
|
| Reading and drinking at home is free, and quiet.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > I'm there to interact and have the book as something to
| do in the interim.
|
| That is not a possibility that ever even crossed my mind.
| If I see someone reading a book, I just assume that they
| don't want social interaction. I didn't even realize that I
| was making an assumption until I read these comments.
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| The book is like holding a up a sign saying "Here is a
| subject I'm interested in and might have recently learned
| some interesting things about, AMA."
| nraford wrote:
| Don't take it personally. The Dutch are notorious misanthropes!
| wink wrote:
| I'm not even sure if I've ever went to a bar alone in my whole
| life, but from my observations it's not very common to talk to
| strangers at all here in Germany, I guess the best chances are
| outside in a beer garden and not in a bar or cafe, or if the
| venue is packed enough that you get someone seated at your
| table (or vice versa). Then again, if you're out with people
| you're probably more focused on your group so you don't
| necessarily notice the strangers connecting, but I still doubt
| I'd missed it all the time.
| rex_gallorum2 wrote:
| Germany definitely tends to be like that - but it makes it
| all the more interesting when strangers _do_ talk to you. It
| could also vary by region and the type of bar. I 've done my
| share of loitering around neighborhood bars in different
| parts of Germany, and it is sometimes surprising how open
| people can be - once they get a few drinks in them.
| pindab0ter wrote:
| I have a pet theory. Disclaimer: I'm Dutch.
|
| In the UK, it's a faux pas to talk about 'serious topics'
| (feelings, politics, etc.) with strangers. There is no danger
| of this happening, and if it does happen you're equipped to
| deal with it.
|
| In the Netherlands, however, it's relatively common to talk
| about serious things. Even with strangers. This makes every
| conversation 'risky'.
|
| My theory is that this is at the root of why the Dutch are
| generally not very good at small talk. It's scary, so we don't
| do it enough, so we're not practised.
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| That's a very interesting idea, and one that I hadn't
| considered. And indeed, Ireland in comparison is a place
| where people try not to get too political in conversation for
| obvious reasons, especially in the North where I grew up.
|
| Your comment reminded me of another story, from the first
| time I visited home after being over here for 2 years,
| bringing my Dutch girlfriend with me to show her around and
| share with her a better understanding of where I came from.
|
| I grew up in Belfast, which outside of the city centre was
| strongly divided between Protestants and Catholics. I grew up
| myself close to an interface between two of these areas,
| where violence was so bad and so regular that a wall had been
| erected to keep the communities apart and keep them from
| fighting.
|
| This was one of the things that was shocking to my
| girlfriend, as well as the paintings on the wall showing
| masked men with guns to denote who controlled the area. After
| talking and walking for a while she noted that she was
| curious about the paintings on "the other side."
|
| I explained to her that, by the age of 27 when I left the
| country, there was large portions of the city that I'd never
| visited because I didn't feel comfortable going there. She
| argued that peace had long been found and that if we went
| there no one would ever even know where I was from, so I
| agreed and we took a visit to The Falls Road in West Belfast,
| a working class Catholic area which was important in the
| history of The Troubles.
|
| We saw their wall, we saw their murals which were honestly
| less intimidating than the ones I'd grown up with. We got to
| the top of the road and explored some side streets, one of
| which had a house pub, a house that had been converted into a
| pub.
|
| My girlfriend wanted to go in and get a real sense of the
| local life. I was honestly quite scared because, on my side
| of town, such bars were always strongly associated with a
| heavy paramilitary clientele and would be unwelcoming to
| outsiders. But, I guess being Dutch, she said "Come on, we
| don't have to talk to anyone, we'll just get a drink and
| enjoy the atmosphere and you can say you've done it." Again,
| I agreed.
|
| We entered into a small dark room. We hadn't even ordered our
| drinks before the locals noticed we were having to think
| about what was available and became curious. As soon as my
| girlfriend opened her mouth with her Dutch accent we were
| asked by the group around the bar, and the barmaid herself,
| where we'd come from.
|
| She explained that she was Dutch and was welcomed with a
| friendly joke about "King Billy," William of Orange who had
| fought in Ireland for the Protestant Ascendancy in the 17th
| Century.
|
| While this was happening a man approached me from antother
| part of the room and asked if I was a musician, as I was
| holding a set of mandolin strings. We got quickly into
| conversation as he was himself a banjo player, and I had been
| curious about finding a bar to hear some traditional music as
| I had started playing it myself while living in Holland.
|
| Another gentleman then joined us and asked us where we were
| staying and I, still feeling uneasy, was quick to mention
| that it was in South Belfast, a mostly neutral part of town.
| I was told we weren't the only non-locals in the bar that
| night as there was a boy from Scotland as well, and he was
| quickly pointed out.
|
| Conversation flowed naturally on and eventually I was asked
| what part of town I was from, and I decided to be honest and
| say East Belfast. The latest gentleman to have entered the
| conversation assumed that I was from the Short Strand, a
| small Catholic enclave in anotherwise Protestant
| neighbourhood. He actually phrased it as, "What part of the
| Strand are you from?" to which I responded, "I'm not, I'm
| from the Other Side" and he asked immediately "What are you
| doing up here then? Are you not afeared?"
|
| I explained that I'd left the country and seen things from
| the outside, seen that we were one people living on one
| island, and that I was here with my girlfriend who was Dutch
| and just wanted to see the whole city. He shook my hand and
| said, "Well, you're a braver man that I am" before moving to
| another table.
|
| Soon after the first man I'd spoken to, the musician, came up
| and said he'd heard that I was Protestant. He too shook my
| hand and said "That's just the way it should be. I hope
| you'll come back again." We finished our drinks and left soon
| after, as we had agreed.
|
| I'm still not sure what to make of it all. Sometimes I regret
| having left and contributed to the "brain drain" at home, not
| being there to do my part in helping with the peace process.
| But sometimes I look back on that day and feel that in some
| small way I did my bit.
| taway1874 wrote:
| Sometimes it is necessary to step out and away to make a
| difference within.
|
| You have most certainly contributed in a positive way and
| perhaps even started a chain reaction of good things to
| come.
|
| Thank you for sharing.
|
| PS: What an amazing girlfriend!
| rlander wrote:
| What an amazing story! I have to admit, I was a bit
| apprehensive while reading through it.
| pindab0ter wrote:
| That's a great story. Thanks for sharing.
| rex_gallorum2 wrote:
| I too appreciated this one. Fascinating!
| letitbeirie wrote:
| I think that's a pretty astute observation.
|
| Visiting the UK (from the US) it was pretty clear that the
| social boundaries were different, but the general nature of
| the game was the same - we're both guess cultures: you have
| to figure out what to say _and_ how to say it.
|
| In the Netherlands, conversation seemed much more unguarded.
| It's hard to describe but it's similar to a concept in the US
| of someone "having no filter" - basically, less verbal
| softening of uncomfortable/taboo subjects and more
| willingness to engage with them.
|
| I actually find the Dutch way very refreshing in some ways.
| Soliciting critiques (e.g. "how does my new haircut look?")
| is a largely pointless exercise in the US because there's
| strong social pressure to say "it looks great" whether it's
| true or not.
|
| I do wonder though if the Dutch way of making friends (as
| adults at least) has to be wildly different than in the
| Anglosphere, given how big a role those subtle social cues
| play here.
| phkahler wrote:
| >> In the Netherlands, however, it's relatively common to
| talk about serious things. Even with strangers. This makes
| every conversation 'risky'.
|
| Sometimes it's good to talk about serious things with someone
| not directly involved with your life (i.e. no skin in the
| game). People even pay for this as a service, I think it's
| called... um... therapy.
|
| A friend of mine "admitted" to seeing a "talky doctor"
| because "there aren't any insightful bar tenders any more".
| This in the US.
| pindab0ter wrote:
| Oh, definitely. I recently went to Japan and while I
| enjoyed the culture immensely, I can't help but notice a
| lot of people really aching for actual conversation.
| Something the Dutch generally aren't starved of with their
| direct and open (sometimes maybe blunt) attitude.
| kurthr wrote:
| This is especially true in business situations. Although
| there is a very collective decision making process, it
| can be quite hierarchical. Often, if a manager has stated
| a position others will not disagree even if it is quite
| wrong. This is where drinking together comes in...
|
| I've seen an engineer who had sat through a day of
| meetings on a topic holding his tongue until they went
| out for drinks after work (like most days). The moment
| beer touched his lips he broke into an angry tirade as to
| how terrible the decision was, and because we were
| "drinking" it was not considered out of bounds or
| reasonably punishable insubordination. Of course sexual
| harassment can have similar in/out of bounds elements so
| it's not like strict rules, boundaries, and exceptions
| solve all problems.
| mdpye wrote:
| Ireland is an independent country, not part of the UK.
|
| Pubs in the UK are much less like this than in Ireland, which
| I also believe are quite special. There _are_ pubs like this
| in the UK, but they 're less and less common the larger the
| town you are in - which (my pet theory) correlates closely
| with the likelihood that there are people in the pub who
| don't already know each other anyway...
|
| Edit for clarification: the more people are mixing in the
| pub, the more likely they all knew each other beforehand.
| Likely because it's a small town pub, although tight
| community pubs do still exist still in London - they're
| rare).
| secfirstmd wrote:
| Yeah it's actually really surprising how different pubs are
| in Ireland vs most of the UK.
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| Just a note: A fifth of Ireland is in the UK and the whole
| island has very close cultural ties and a shared history
| with Britain.
| deadletters wrote:
| A lot of the world has close cultural ties and a shared
| history with Britain for some reason.
| taway1874 wrote:
| Yep. For "some" reason that I quite cannot put my finger
| on ;-)
| vkou wrote:
| You could definitely put a finger on the trigger of a
| muzzle-loaded musket.
| shagie wrote:
| Relevant xkcd: Sunset on the British Empire https://what-
| if.xkcd.com/48/
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_that_have
| _ga...
|
| https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_British_Empir
| e.p...
|
| ---
|
| Tangentially tangent trivia - the largest park in the EU
| is located about 3deg north of the equator.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guiana_Amazonian_Park
|
| If it's not Britain, it was France or Spain.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| My daily reminder that France and therefore the EU has a
| land border with Brazil.
| pindab0ter wrote:
| I'm sorry for lumping Ireland in with the UK. I've been to
| both England, Scotland and Ireland and in my experience the
| casual interactions were similarly positive in comparison
| to the Netherlands.
|
| I guess I'd notice the differences more if I were to spend
| more time there.
| brightball wrote:
| This is actually one of the big no-nos of social gatherings
| in general in the US too.
|
| You don't talk about politics, religion or money. There's no
| point. It's a no win situation because you're only going to
| make somebody angry, never change anyone's mind and everyone
| else in the room will be uncomfortable and/or leave because
| they just showed up to see everybody, share food, find out
| how life and family is going and have a good time.
|
| This is also one of the main reasons that it's so easy to
| talk about sports.
| fortuna86 wrote:
| [dead]
| r3trohack3r wrote:
| I've found this is a generational thing in my social
| circles. The older generations have a philosophy of "you
| don't talk about politics, religion, or money" and, the
| younger generations, that's all they talk about.
| Alupis wrote:
| > the younger generations, that's all they talk about
|
| There's something to this, I think. For younger
| generations, politics has become an identity and seems to
| influence a significant majority of their life -
| including who they associate with, etc.
|
| I enjoy the sport of the debate - but am very careful not
| to "get into it" with people who do not initiate that
| conversation on their own. Not everyone can have a debate
| and walk away at the end _not_ thinking less of the other
| person.
| rurp wrote:
| My big issue with arguing about politics is that the vast
| majority of people seem to have no interest in an actual
| debate; they just want to rant about their positions
| regardless of what the other party says. This leads to
| extremely boring conversations.
|
| I have a few close friends that I actually enjoy debating
| with because they will listen to arguments with an open
| mind and often make thoughtful arguments that cause me to
| reevaluate.
|
| If someone I don't know well asks if I'm interested in
| anything politics related my answer is now a hard no,
| even though I actually do follow politics quite a lot.
| Those conversations practially always end up feeling like
| a waste of time, IME.
| shagie wrote:
| Keep Your Identity Small (2009)
| http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html (see also
| https://hn.algolia.com/?q=keep+your+identity )
|
| > I finally realized today why politics and religion
| yield such uniquely useless discussions.
|
| > As a rule, any mention of religion on an online forum
| degenerates into a religious argument. Why? Why does this
| happen with religion and not with Javascript or baking or
| other topics people talk about on forums?
|
| ---
|
| Also https://pbfcomics.com/comics/deeply-held-beliefs/
| TremendousJudge wrote:
| maybe it's learned behavior?
| tonyarkles wrote:
| I'm probably in between "the younger generations" and
| "the older generations" at this point in my life. One of
| the interesting observations I've made hanging around
| younger people is that they do seem to talk about
| politics quite a bit, but in a homogenous way. With older
| people, I know a number of right-leaning and left-leaning
| people and they don't talk about politics with each other
| because they'll just end up pissed off with each other.
| With younger people it seems they tend to form social
| circles that are very politically aligned, so no one's
| going to get angry talking about politics. (Compared to,
| say, forming social circles around a baseball team or
| something like that)
| sfink wrote:
| Yes. In the younger circles, it seems like there's a very
| brief period of telegraphing your "tribe", and once you
| detect the matching cues you can assume you know pretty
| much _everything_ about the other 's point of view. To
| the point that there's no reason to discuss anything, you
| may as well both hold up a preprinted sheet listing out
| everything the "good" side believes.
|
| Occasionally people will push on the extreme edges of
| that accepted area, maybe even commiserate on how some
| things are taken too far, but without ever really
| challenging the basic belief or seeking to find where the
| edge of reasonableness might be.
|
| It's not horrible, and I'm just an old fogey whinging
| here. It just gets under my skin when I hear for the
| hundredth time a group of kids talking about stuff that I
| basically agree with, but taking it to the extreme
| without an ounce of self-awareness that they've crossed
| into the zone of ridiculousness.
|
| In a way it's because I'm the same, I want "my side" to
| be more rigorous and intellectually honest than the
| "sheep on the other side", and it's uncomfortable to
| realize that the people who largely agree with me on the
| topics are so sloppy at how they got there. If something
| else becomes fashionable, they'll just adopt that
| instead. And if some question comes up, it'll be decided
| by what feels most in line with what they've already
| agreed to believe, regardless of the actual merits.
|
| I guess I'll just worry about keeping them off my lawn.
| tonyarkles wrote:
| > In a way it's because I'm the same, I want "my side" to
| be more rigorous and intellectually honest than the
| "sheep on the other side"
|
| Man... I'll preface this by saying I'm Canadian and that
| _in Canada_ 80% of firearms deaths are intentionally
| self-inflicted. It's a piece of important colour for what
| I'm about to say next.
|
| I am a very left-leaning firearm owner in Canada and your
| comment perfectly describes my frustration. I have a few
| friends who will engage in a healthy discussion on the
| topic, but so so often it just turns into thought-
| terminating cliches and memes. And on the other side of
| it, many of the people I run into at the range are full
| of right-wing thought-terminating cliches, memes, and
| conspiracy theories. Urgh. Oh well, at least I can go out
| to the farm and put holes in boxes in peace!
| brightball wrote:
| This is my experience as well.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| Its _verrry_ common over the last decade to either be
| completely unaware of or completely disregard that no-no,
| in the US
|
| and it has predictable results
| sublinear wrote:
| > There's no point. It's a no win situation because you're
| only going to make somebody angry, never change anyone's
| mind and everyone else in the room will be uncomfortable
| and/or leave because they just showed up to see everybody,
| share food, find out how life and family is going and have
| a good time.
|
| Total strangers will absolutely talk about all of that and
| more if they pass the vibe check regardless if they
| disagree. You don't have to agree to get along and have
| fun. The way someone carries themselves is precisely what
| makes them unique and interesting and its a vital skill to
| have. Bars are the tried and true institution for
| developing this. Go to any bar after midnight on a
| weeknight when the regulars are the majority instead.
| Nobody is talking about sports at that hour, and the
| friendships made are all the stronger for it. For those
| that can hang, that's a win.
| brightball wrote:
| Total strangers is key here.
|
| Family gatherings or groups of friends have a risk
| associated with those conversations. Strangers don't. You
| don't have anything to lose with people you don't know.
| sublinear wrote:
| The new people don't suddenly become agreeable doormats
| when they turn into a regular. They become friends. _That
| 's why_ they're friends (the honesty).
|
| It's a sad state of social dysfunction that so many
| people are so afraid of disagreement. That aversion is
| _the source_ of all the conflict because white lies only
| paint you into a corner.
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| Actual friends don't care. I wouldn't mind an extremely
| disagreeable drunk argument about some hard political
| stuff with friends. Would just write it off the next day.
|
| Cutting people out of your lives too quickly leaves you
| with just boring agreeable people.
| abeppu wrote:
| I dunno, I find that people are can be relatively open to
| talking about 'bigger' issues so long as it's framed in a
| way that departs from the normal polarizing frameworks
| we're used to engaging in.
|
| Talking about politics in the sense of current party issues
| is either boring or divisive depending on the group. But
| talking about voting systems and social choice theory can
| turn out well, especially if you frame it around something
| that doesn't look like governance in a traditional state.
| E.g. "The recent Colorado river water deal was kind of
| undemocratic. But what would be a fair, democratic and
| reasonable way to make decisions around that kind of
| resource problem?"
|
| "Which religion is right?" is a bad conversation starter,
| but nerdy people enjoy a question that departs from normal
| identifications, like "Judaism, Islam and sometimes
| Buddhism care a lot about engaging with religious texts in
| their original language, but Christianity cares a lot less.
| Does faith come with an intuition about the Sapir-Whorf
| hypothesis?" People aren't precommitted to a camp in an
| emotional way, aren't offended by disagreement, and are
| willing to think about something new.
| lazyasciiart wrote:
| Heh, in the Catholic Church this could jump you right
| into a current vicious divide between regressive
| "Latinists" who want to undo all of Vatican 2 (most
| relevantly, the change from holding mass in Latin to
| holding it in the local language), and the pope and
| actual church.
| abeppu wrote:
| ... but even if you're an old-school Catholic who wants
| Latin mass, is that consistent with a strong version of
| Sapir-Whorf given that the new testament was written in
| Koine Greek and Jesus and the disciples spoke Aramaic?
| I.e. if language limits which concepts you can hold,
| Latin may not be able to communicate same understandings
| as intended by the authors of the gospels?
| lazyasciiart wrote:
| I don't think you'd get informed takes on Sapir-Whorf,
| but people who already have opinions on Latin Mass and
| not linguistics might assume that you were referring to
| that topic.
| abeppu wrote:
| Yeah but if your conversational partner wants to express
| an opinion without understanding the question, and who
| doesn't have the intellectual curiosity to ask about the
| Sapir-Whorf hypothesis then they encounter it, maybe you
| already weren't going to have a good conversation
| irrespective of the topic.
| toyg wrote:
| These arguments are rarely about who's objectively right,
| but rather an ideological justification for a power
| struggle. Undoing "Vatican II" is largely about
| repositioning Catholic attention towards the wealthy end
| of the social spectrum, to make it easier to wield hard,
| temporal power; Latin mass is just one of the ideological
| wedges used to support that effort.
| rex_gallorum2 wrote:
| So true. I had a similar experience in Germany. I'd say Ireland
| is small enough that everyone is connected to everyone else in
| some way, and people are curious about others, and discovering
| those remote connections. I've found that in many other places,
| people just don't care and are not interested.
| [deleted]
| cafard wrote:
| Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/2777/
| gotaran wrote:
| Hotel lobbies, especially those like Ace, CitizenM, Public, and
| Moxy, are my favorite public spaces. You could practically spend
| the entire day there. Start with a coffee and end it with a
| nightcap.
|
| There's almost always a place to sit. You could show up with your
| laptop and work, and not get the kind of side eye you'd get from
| coffee shops. Or you could show up with a friend or a date and
| actually hear yourself think. You can make conversations with
| strangers. You don't feel obligated to buy a drink every hour.
| And you don't look like a loser if you're drinking solo.
|
| And the bartenders know what they're doing. I'd take it over the
| cramped hipster Williamsburg speakeasy with a 1 month in advance
| reservation requirement.
| valarauko wrote:
| > You could show up with your laptop and work, and not get the
| kind of side eye you'd get from coffee shops.
|
| Conversely, as someone who wants to actually sample the
| offerings at different coffee shops, I find it incredibly
| annoying that there's never any space to just sit and drink
| coffee. Every space is overtaken by laptop users parked for
| hours. Me, I'd like to try a nice pourover, and sit and savor
| it for half hour or so before heading on my day. Instead, my
| only option is a to go cup, and I'm damned if I'm spending that
| much for drinking out a paper cup standing outside.
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