[HN Gopher] Demystifying burnout - A deep dive into its symptoms...
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Demystifying burnout - A deep dive into its symptoms and remedies
Author : ochronus
Score : 70 points
Date : 2023-06-26 15:53 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (leadership.garden)
(TXT) w3m dump (leadership.garden)
| paulcole wrote:
| One of the things nobody ever mentions is that burnout (by any
| definition) isn't necessarily bad.
|
| It could just be that you don't want the job you have anymore -
| and that is often good! You get to find a job you do want and
| your employer gets to find somebody who wants to do your job more
| than you do.
| boesboes wrote:
| yeah, hard disagree. Once you burn out, you are way too late to
| just find a new job.
|
| I'm currently going though something close to a burn out,
| things like making coffee can make me cry. Haven't slept more
| than 3 hours in a month and can barely form a coherent sentence
| half the time. But hey, at least now i know i need to find a
| new job! Sure that is gonna go great.
| nonrepeating wrote:
| Good lord. That sounds like a living death, and I'm sorry to
| hear you're experiencing that. I can think of ten different
| optimistic aphorisms to spout at you right now, but instead
| I'll respect you enough to simply acknowledge what you're
| going through and agree that life should be better than that.
| outworlder wrote:
| > One of the things nobody ever mentions is that burnout (by
| any definition) isn't necessarily bad.
|
| That is completely missing the point of what burnout actually
| is. Some people take years to recover - good luck starting a
| new job.
|
| Dissatisfaction with the current job is a signal to go
| somewhere else. Being on the verge of completely stopping to
| function as a human being is necessarily bad.
| swayvil wrote:
| Seriously. If your lifestyle is making you feel bad then that's
| a sure sign. No mystery there.
| lisasays wrote:
| Right, but only in the sense that depression and anxiety aren't
| "bad", they're just "pain signals".
|
| _You get to find a job you do want and your employer gets to
| find somebody who wants to do your job more than you do._
|
| As if the root problem is that you just don't want to really do
| your job. (As opposed to the far more likely: you absolutely
| _did_ when you started out -- until the employer started
| getting in the way. And telling you to take more yoga classes
| as a way of coping).
| paulcole wrote:
| > As opposed to the far more likely: you absolutely did when
| you started out -- until the employer started getting in the
| way
|
| You can be the thing that changed as well.
| wonderwonder wrote:
| Burn out follows you from job to job. I burned out 3 jobs ago
| and am still fried. I take it you have never burned out as it
| seems you dont understand to complete mental wall that it
| erects in your mind that crushes everything in both your work
| and pesonal life.
| swayvil wrote:
| In your 3 jobs, was the work the same or different?
|
| I mean, was it all computer stuff or did you change it up
| with ditchdigging?
| wonderwonder wrote:
| The same, software. Can't really afford to take the massive
| paycut that comes from starting a new career now.
|
| I actually did it once ~15 years ago. Left software due to
| burn out and took a 50% paycut. All my stress disappeared.
| White collar non sales jobs are pretty easy coming from a
| software background if you have some complementary people
| skills. The complexity is much lower so it's easier to
| shine. Was great for a few years then decided to have kids
| so I needed more $ and went back to software. The stress
| had just been waiting for me the whole time :)
| mistrial9 wrote:
| one thing people don't realize is, serious injury on the job
| isn't necessarily bad!
|
| It could be that the job was just too dangerous and difficult
| for you. You will be removed from the jobsite, and maybe that
| is what you wanted all along. Someone else that wants to have a
| job can take the one you left. And your employer gets a benefit
| from getting a fresh, uninjured person.
| grugagag wrote:
| Burnout is bad. I recovered after a bad episode but feel I lost
| some faculties because of it, can't tap into some skills I used
| to have any longer. Maybe im more resilient now but that's
| because I won't let burnout build up anymore and enter a don't
| give a shit mode to protect my sanity.
|
| And all this to make more bucks for some rich arses.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Recently I read the book "The Stress of Life" by Hans Selye and
| had this obvious connection that work is such a primary source of
| stress that it makes you more than what this article talks about.
| That it can make you chronically ill without you knowing because
| you're too busy trying to...survive.
|
| GAS or general adaptation syndrome explains burnout quite simply.
| There's an alarm reaction that happens in us. Next a resistance
| phase where our bodies try to fight it off. Finally, an
| exhaustion phase where we let the stressor take its course(aka
| burnout).
|
| "It is not stress that kills us, It is our reaction to it" - Hans
| Selye
| bad_username wrote:
| From my experience, burnout happens in a prolonged situation
| where stakes are high, but one's capacity to influence the
| outcome is low. In such situations the great emotional investment
| is not rewarded by results; so not only the person becomes
| emotionally exhausted, but they are subconsciously incentivized
| to stop caring much.
| [deleted]
| JimtheCoder wrote:
| I'm not sure this really classifies as a "deep dive"...more like
| a brief overview into a complex psychological and physiological
| issue with relatively...unhelpful...remedies for people actually
| experiencing real burnout.
| systems_glitch wrote:
| Yeah reads like something HR puts out as required reading when
| they know they've been running everyone too hard.
| [deleted]
| quechimba wrote:
| I've burned out a few times. Every time was different. First time
| was the worst. It took me about one and a half years until I
| could work again. Long-term stress is dangerous. Toxic workplaces
| are dangerous. It's not worth it.
| uxcolumbo wrote:
| What about the feeling of stagnation and not growing and not
| having the ability to change your situation? Some call it
| boreout.
| anotherhue wrote:
| Listen, I've gone very very deep down this rabbit hole, let me
| summarise my lessons:
|
| 1. Fluffy pieces like this abound, and they are worthless. It may
| help you to draw similarities between articles espousing the
| urgency and importance of tackling climate change and the
| deafening silence of actions and consequences that follow. Why is
| this so? Because talk is cheap, and feigned concern is much
| cheaper than expensive change.
|
| 2. Why is there burnout? Because corporate incentives are
| antagonistic to human needs and corporations are more important
| than we are. This manifests every time some over-elevated micro-
| despot demands deadlines and urgency from their underlings. Much
| as banks lending against fractional reserves is the true source
| of money creation, emotionally stunted 'leadership' making
| misguided plans for the future is the true source of stress.
| Remember always that their goal is to be promoted into a higher
| strata of distance from effort, and your toil will be forgotten
| the moment that happens.
|
| 3. Gaslighting you into thinking more yoga will improve your
| working environment further increases the problem, as it
| recontextualises the problem from one of their making to one of
| your failing. If you're stressed or burned out, it's obviously
| your fault.
|
| 4. Meaningful change _was_ possible, but is likely no longer as
| the labour market has shifted back in favour of the corporations.
| Most people are currently more interested in keeping their job
| than causing a fuss. Unions are an obvious fix here but until
| they become more palatable by a) improving their significantly
| outdated image and practices and b) overcoming the stigma imposed
| on them by corporations, then they'll be forever waiting in the
| wings.
|
| 5. Cross-timezone work is fundamentally inhumane. There is no
| right to one's circadian rhythm but to suggest it's not important
| is a biological fallacy. However as corporations do not sleep it
| is inconvenient for their workers to do so. Conference calls from
| PT to India are common, no one is happy in that arrangement. This
| could be solved by partitioning work into same or very-similar
| timezones but that would be a burden to the leadership so it does
| not occur.
|
| 6. Work outside of working hours is entirely to the company's
| benefit and your personal detriment. A quote I read recently said
| it best "In ten years, the only people who will remember that you
| went above and beyond for your job are your kids.". If you are
| working for yourself or have a >10% equity then this does not
| apply, you do you.
|
| 6a. Given the above, your reachability outside of working yours
| is a direct attack on your life, yet we all install the corporate
| messaging app on our phone and check it like a drug habbit. Slack
| repackages your availability as a product and sells it. If any
| company was serious about work-life balance then they would
| simply turn off slack at the end of the work day.
|
| I have more of course but these are probably the best.
|
| Coda: If you want to learn about the actual science, then I
| suggest listening to Dr. Maslach who literally created the field
| (and was responsible for stopping the Stanford prisoner
| experiement)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQy1Zc37Bd0
|
| Edit 2: Here's the timezone overlap between SF and Mumbai, in
| case you were not aware:
| https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?iso=...
| outworlder wrote:
| > 5. Cross-timezone work is fundamentally inhumane. There is no
| right to one's circadian rhythm but to suggest it's not
| important is a biological fallacy. However as corporations do
| not sleep it is inconvenient for their workers to do so.
| Conference calls from PT to India are common, no one is happy
| in that arrangement. This could be solved by partitioning work
| into same or very-similar timezones but that would be a burden
| to the leadership so it does not occur.
|
| _sigh_
|
| Yes, yes it is. That's made worse by companies that don't care
| about that at all, so you end up with meetings at 7AM and 11PM
| in the same day. It's pretty difficult to compartmentalize when
| your work has a follow the sun rotation.
|
| > 6. Work outside of working hours is entirely to the company's
| benefit and your personal detriment.
|
| If you are a 'salaried' employee in the US, the whole concept
| of 'working hours' is thrown out of the window.
|
| On Slack: it can make an existing problem worse. I do prefer
| some quick discussions over Slack than being forced to check
| email threads outside 'working hours' to see if there's
| anything relevant to me. Or, worse yet, getting actual phone
| calls. Slack _can_ create entirely new problems, but it's
| usually just amplifying a bad situation.
| lawn wrote:
| This is not complete as burnout isn't always caused by your
| job.
|
| Family situation, school or even internal stress that you
| create for yourself because you have 100 hobby projects can all
| cause a massive burnout too.
| anotherhue wrote:
| Of course! Long term family (or self) illnesses are
| devastating, especially anything degenerative. Thankfully
| those are mostly special cases, which I say as someone who's
| been through it.
|
| Contrariwise, I've heard of people stress out about how large
| their Steam backlog has grown.
| grugagag wrote:
| To me school was a big culprit and can track the beginning of
| stress in my life. A lot of times it was just stress for the
| sake of getting used to it and I get that but it's quite
| cynical
| thor_molecules wrote:
| You pretty much summarized what I've been thinking about for
| the past couple years.
|
| Question is, what can we do about it? Thats where I really
| start to feel powerless, the challenge seems insurmountable.
| lusus_naturae wrote:
| I am thinking of just working in non-profits and foss after
| my phd.
| parpfish wrote:
| i don't think nonprofits are the right path if you're
| trying to avoid burnout. you might agree with a big-picture
| mission, but it's only a matter of time before the low pay
| and huge workload combine with a sense of futility to
| create burnout.
| lusus_naturae wrote:
| I am not concerned with achieving anything, so I think
| I'll be fine.
|
| To clarify, I am taking a stoic stance on this, not a
| detached or unconcerned one.
| anotherhue wrote:
| Things companies can actually do:
|
| 1. Turn off async comms outside of working hours.
| https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-16314901
|
| Things companies actually do:
| foobiekr wrote:
| Isn't the asynchronous aspect meant to allow this? Just have
| people muted off hours.
| throwaway292939 wrote:
| Right. Article is from 2012 as well. The communication
| landscape arguably has evolved a lot since then.
|
| With Slack, for example, you have so much fine grained
| control. I don't know if it makes sense to implement a
| blanket "shut off communications after hours" policy
| parpfish wrote:
| i agree. send emails/chats whenever you want and it's up to
| the recipient to manage their notifications to prevent them
| from getting sucked in after hours.
|
| - i'd rather log in at 9am and see a bunch of late night
| emails than logging in at 9am and then seeing a deluge of
| auto-sent messages flood my inbox at 9:01.
|
| - there needs to be some 'core' working hours, but people may
| be in different time zones or may do their best work in
| different parts of the day. if you're a night owl, we
| shouldn't do anything to stop/discourage you from doing work
| at 1am.
| kzrdude wrote:
| I still don't think Android has a nice feature for this.
| I'd like to have a group of apps muted by a specific
| schedule, with the option to flip between states. None of
| the similar features do this in a simple way.
| ElevenLathe wrote:
| If you really didn't want employees to answer email in the
| middle of their night, you would configure the company mail
| server to not deliver things in the middle of their night.
| Some companies actually do this.
| parpfish wrote:
| how do you handle multi-timezone teams or international
| companies with people spread around the world?
|
| it would be counterproductive to tell a team in london team
| that they can't message each other because the the email
| server server only sends things during california working
| hours.
| grugagag wrote:
| Could be solved with a simple expectation for reading
| emails during work hours company wide. Btw, I don't check
| my email when outside workhours and don't care what
| anyone thinks... There's an emergency path directly to my
| phone but that isn't to be abused or gets banned away. It
| hasn't happened in years...
| ElevenLathe wrote:
| Don't deliver mail to a London recipient if it is
| midnight in London. If it's noon on a weekday for another
| recipient, go ahead and deliver it to them. Also, there
| would be no need to have restrictions on sending -- email
| is store-and-forward already. Send all you want, it will
| get delivered when the receiving party is available.
|
| These used to be the default expectations around email:
| your recipient will see it during business hours, when
| they next dial in. Broadband and always-on internet
| creeped up without us really examining this, so Outlook
| is now just a chat client with a weird UI.
| ShroudedNight wrote:
| This article provides no citations; it's hard to tell if it's
| based on rigorous research or folk knowledge.
| starbugs wrote:
| Yea nice article and all, but let's be honest: This is pretty
| much backed into the cake of how we handle things currently as a
| society. People are seen as a means to an end. You are
| disconnected from what you do and the positive effects it might
| have at best, and, at worst, your work might not have a positive
| effect at all. You might in fact feel that the whole tech thing
| has become toxic.
|
| And now we call this burnout? While in reality, it may just be
| exactly the other way around. Mass psychosis ousting those who
| dare to wake up.
|
| Now, you can call me cynical, but I'd invite you to think about
| who's really cynical here.
|
| Just a thought.
| [deleted]
| systems_glitch wrote:
| You are the fuel or you are the fireman :/
| haswell wrote:
| As someone about a year into a sabbatical to recover from
| burnout, I tend to agree.
|
| I had a series of expectations about the role of the break I
| was about to take, and how it would serve as a recharge to
| enable me to jump back in. Instead, it's been a gradual process
| of waking up to the systemic reasons that led to the burnout,
| many of which had nothing to do with the (legitimately
| stressful) work environment I was in.
|
| It's hard to summarize this in a comment, and I'm currently
| working on an outline for an extensive series of blog posts
| exploring these realizations in depth. But a few of the big
| things were (and I should emphasize that the following points
| just scratch the surface):
|
| 1. I am not my thoughts or feelings. It's surprising how far
| this one will take you
|
| 2. If work is your support system, your life exists on shaky
| ground
|
| 3. Personal struggles become work struggles and vice versa. You
| can't draw a clean box around grief and loss, or pretend that
| work stress can stay at work
|
| 4. There were major gaps in my life in terms of social
| connections, time spent in nature, finding artistic outlets,
| etc.
|
| 5. Focusing on real self-care/improvement as one's primary
| purpose in life open doors internally and externally
|
| As I transition back to work, it won't involve picking up where
| I left off, but something completely different and oriented
| around these deeper realizations about myself and helping other
| people find the same insights for themselves.
|
| These things are nearly impossible to see while in the midst of
| a burnout state.
| throwuxiytayq wrote:
| Can I follow you somewhere?
| haswell wrote:
| I'm currently trying to decide how/where to publish, and
| haven't decided whether or not I'll use a pseudonym when
| publishing (a lot of my personal stuff stems from family
| issues that I'm cautious to go into publicly).
|
| But I will put a link in my HN profile when I get things up
| and running, and if you shoot me an email (address in
| profile), I'd be happy to ping you when I get this off the
| ground. I expect this is at least a few months out, but I'm
| hoping to do most of the writing while the experience is
| fresh.
| EatingWithForks wrote:
| Can you clarify no 1? What are you if not your thinking and
| your feeling? I'm not trying to be snarky, i am actually
| legit curious about how to develop a sense of self that
| doesn't have to do with, y'know, sensing.
| starbugs wrote:
| You are the one who sees (or 'hears') the thoughts and
| feels the feelings. The reason this distinction makes sense
| is that, arguably, most if not all of 'your' thoughts and
| feelings are actually preconditioned from the outside. This
| lets you disidentify from an outside programming.
| EatingWithForks wrote:
| But how do you define yourself outside of thinking and
| feeling? Even the thought to disidentify is a thought,
| no? I don't understand.
| starbugs wrote:
| The thought 'disidentify' is just a word for describing
| the process of understanding it.
|
| Think about it like this: As long as you believe that you
| are your thoughts, you are identified with them. They are
| you. Can you control your thoughts? No? Ok, there's the
| problem.
|
| But you are not your thoughts, actually. You are able to
| 'hear' your thoughts. If it weren't so, who would be
| unable to control their thoughts in the thought
| experiment above?
|
| Did you ever walk down the street and suddenly have your
| mind comment on something you see without you having
| asked for it? Where did that thought come from? Did you
| intentionally cause it? Or did it just happen and you
| recognized it happily (or sadly) talking inside your mind
| for no good reason?
|
| Try the following experiment: Ask yourself what will be
| your next thought? What happens? If you really are your
| thoughts, then you should be able to know what the next
| one will be, no?
|
| Edit: You asked how do you define yourself? For me, it's
| easiest to think of me as the one who thinks or feels, or
| better "the one who can hear thoughts or feel feelings".
| Ultimately, I believe this is just another thought that
| helps deprogramming a conditioning. In reality, your
| 'self' does not even exist. It's a concept made up by the
| mind.
| pjohri wrote:
| Excellent question, it is a long process to start
| understanding that you are not your mind. And learning to
| live in that mode. Lookup talks by Osho if you want to
| get started.
| haswell wrote:
| The question that helped me make sense of this was: if I am
| my thoughts and feelings, then who/what is aware of those
| thoughts and feelings?
|
| I lived most of my life feeling wholly identified with my
| thoughts. I was also taught at a young age that some
| thoughts are good, and some thoughts are evil, and that
| having evil thoughts makes people bad. Typical religion
| stuff.
|
| But what started to open this up for me was to practice
| mindfulness for a few minutes/day. This practice trains you
| to pay close attention to sensations in the body, and
| eventually to thoughts and feelings.
|
| Over time and with practice (~10 minutes/day is where I
| started, and I spend 20 minutes now), my perspective has
| shifted from _being_ my thoughts, to being the space in
| which thoughts occur. Gaining this space is extremely
| helpful if you have the type of brain that generates a
| _lot_ of negative thoughts, as mine tends to do.
|
| It also helps you see and short-circuit certain negative
| thought patterns as they happen. This has been a
| fundamental ingredient in accomplishing real habit change.
| dheera wrote:
| > 2. If work is your support system, your life exists on
| shaky ground
|
| This is why I despise it when the likes of Jack Ma, Elon
| Musk, et al try to promote a culture in which staying at work
| till 9pm or later and coming in on weekends is normalized,
| and tell everyone in their 20s that that's the only right way
| to live. It's horrible advice and incredibly short-sighted.
|
| Then you have the likes of TikTok who have meetings late into
| almost every evening and blame it on the time zone difference
| between USA and China, when they could have planned better,
| drawn lines, and have more reasonably-planned meeting times
| that fit both time zones. Employees in their 20s who don't
| know better just drink this Kool-aid and get burned out.
|
| Those people will never have time to make real friends
| outside of work, date healthily, or otherwise find a real
| support system that can emotionally support them without a
| conflict of interest with the workplace.
|
| The way you find that healthy support system is precisely by
| having evenings and weekends to yourself so you can go to
| venues where you can meet people outside of work.
| FooBarWidget wrote:
| Yes big money exploit workers. What else is new?
| foothrowaway wrote:
| [dead]
| throwawaymaths wrote:
| Hate to say it but depending on your long term objectives
| taking a sabbatical _might_ have been the worst thing to
| recover from burnout. You want to reassociate effort with
| reward, and the best way to do that is to work on small
| things related to what caused your burnout that will
| "guarantee wins with low expectations". By pivoting to
| something different you reinforce the association of the
| previous form of effort with failure (in the negative space
| of rewarding yourself for not doing it).
| haswell wrote:
| The levels of stress I was enduring started causing
| physiological symptoms that eventually forced me to take
| medication to calm things down. It was also severely
| disrupting my sleep, which was causing other health
| problems.
|
| Setting aside any discussion of rewards, there were red
| flags everywhere telling me I had to take a step back, and
| fast (my doctors agreed).
|
| But beyond the physical health, this is all a matter of
| perspective and framing. If measured on the traditional
| metrics of reward vs. effort (shipping things, happy
| customers, compensation, respect of peers, interesting
| problems, etc.), I had no reason to burn out.
|
| The trouble is that most people are conditioned to believe
| without question that those are some of the the primary
| metrics/rewards that matter. For me personally, part of the
| burnout was due more to a misplaced emphasis on things that
| most people would classify as "wins", but from which I
| derived no personal satisfaction.
|
| Going deeper, much of the burnout wasn't related to work at
| all.
|
| And deeper still, some of the burnout was due to a deep
| misalignment between the work I was doing and my core
| values. What I really want out of life.
|
| Pivoting might be the worst thing for continuing down the
| path I was on, but to me that's a feature, not a bug.
| mahathu wrote:
| "When I start working again, it won't involve picking up
| where I left off, but something completely different and
| oriented around these deeper realizations and helping other
| people find the same insights for themselves."
|
| Such condescending drivel. The first "realisation" is what is
| commonly taught within the first 5 sessions of cognitive
| behavioural therapy. The fifth seems like a move in the right
| direction for a person who considers (2) and (3) to be so
| enlightening to justify teaching other people about them, but
| ultimately coming up with purpuses for your life and ranking
| them sounds like setting yourself up for a lot of
| disappointment once the inevitable days where such self-
| proclaimed purposes can't be achieved come.
|
| Envisioning dedicating an entire blog to enlighten others
| about these "realisations" people generally have before
| turning 20 just makes you sound like a narcissist.
| haswell wrote:
| > _The first "realisation" is what is commonly taught
| within the first 5 sessions of cognitive behavioural
| therapy_
|
| This is something I learned early and explored regularly in
| my therapy journey of many years, but I never directly
| _experienced_ it until I had time off to explore it more
| deeply (mindfulness meditation, time in nature, photography
| all helped here). It 's one thing to understand this
| conceptually. It's another thing entirely to experience it
| directly, and it's that delta that seems worth exploring.
|
| My goal in writing all of this out isn't to enlighten
| people, or to claim I've found the one true path, or to
| proclaim novel findings about the nature of self. But
| rather, to re-explore the interesting parts of the break
| and what worked/didn't work for my own clarity, and in case
| that information resonates with someone or helps them
| through their own stuff. In short: "this is what worked for
| me, might not work for you, do with that what you will".
| I'm certain it won't resonate with everyone, and I'm ok
| with that.
|
| To be honest, one of the biggest things that has made me
| think twice about this project is that I don't want people
| to think I'm taking myself too seriously.
|
| But your comment helped me realize that I'm not actually
| concerned about naysayers, so thank you for that!
| starbugs wrote:
| Thank you for this.
|
| Now that I have ranted enough in the parent comment, here are
| my 2 maybe constructive cents:
|
| 1. Learn what it means to be relaxed again and make this your
| first priority. F** everything else, if necessary. Anxiety
| and stress don't have a chance if you aren't tense.
|
| 2. Go out into the sun and spend a lot of time in nature. If
| you can't get out of bed in the morning, make it a habit to
| go out first thing in the morning for an hour or so. Force
| yourself if need be at first.
|
| 3. When anxiety or self-blame start to emerge, feel it and
| focus on the feeling itself intensely. This makes it
| impossible for it to take over your mind.
|
| 4. Make fear a positive experience by using it for something
| positive, e.g. learning how to focus on your feelings or
| reframing it as thrill.
|
| 5. Try all methods you can find to cope. Everyone is
| different and not all methods work for everybody.
| haswell wrote:
| +1 to all of the above. Especially "try stuff".
|
| Going along with 3 and 4, realizing how much worse
| avoidance was than embracing anxiety and the causes of it
| was a game changer.
|
| The book "Flow" also applies here.
| smcleod wrote:
| Absolutely. Just like the fact that companies will make as much
| profit as they can get away with - they will treat their
| workers with as much, or near to as much as they can get away
| with.
| scotty79 wrote:
| > cynicism
|
| Why the cynicism is perceived as something wrong or even a
| symptom?
|
| Cynicism is just the most probable approximation of reality
| stripped of forcibly uplifting false narratives.
| swayvil wrote:
| Implicit in the term "burnout" is that it's good and healthy to
| do this (rather inhuman, intense) thing in these vast quantities.
| That to get sick from it is somehow this weird aberration.
|
| But if you consume too much of pretty much anything you'll get
| sick. Even good stuff. That's perfectly normal.
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