[HN Gopher] A new study looks at how exercise can help alleviate...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       A new study looks at how exercise can help alleviate anxiety and
       depression
        
       Author : FunnyLookinHat
       Score  : 72 points
       Date   : 2023-06-25 20:40 UTC (2 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (greatergood.berkeley.edu)
 (TXT) w3m dump (greatergood.berkeley.edu)
        
       | sgtcodeboy wrote:
       | Certainly can't speak for everyone, but the most effective form
       | of exercise that I have found is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Couple of
       | reasons. First: The deeper you get into it the more you learn its
       | primarily an intellectual pursuit - its just hidden in a very
       | physical endeavor. When I'm doing Jiu Jitsu, I have to actively
       | think, engage my problem solving skills, I can't go on auto pilot
       | as I do in other things - rowing machine for instance. Second:
       | Anyone can do it, at nearly any age with any body type. If you're
       | older and not super athletic, your Jiu Jitsu will be different
       | than say a 20yo who is very athletic. But that in no way means
       | your Jiu Jitsu or experience will be any less effective. First
       | time posting on HN. Hope this helps someone.
        
       | ryanSrich wrote:
       | It's a bit cliche at this point thanks to people like Joe Rogan,
       | but Jiu Jitsu is, imo, the best possible form of exercise.
       | 
       | It's not only physically exhausting, it's also mentally very
       | difficult. And not just because it requires deep levels of
       | knowledge to be good, but it also resets any preconceived notions
       | of strength. It's not uncommon for a new white belt male that
       | weighs 200lbs to get absolutely waxed by a 100lbs brown belt
       | female. I see it happen all the time. Of course, as you belt up,
       | and gain more understanding of the sport, there are ways to
       | utilize a size and strength advantages. But that's secondary to
       | knowledge.
        
         | oscribinn wrote:
         | Judo is even better, as you also learn how to throw people from
         | your feet rather than starting on the ground all the time, and
         | you pretty much have to lift weights off the mat to stay
         | competitive.
        
           | Mordisquitos wrote:
           | > rather than starting on the ground all the time
           | 
           | BJJ does not start on the ground as standard, let alone "all
           | the time". Matches start standing, and if you are only
           | training from the ground you are missing out. That's not to
           | say that stand-up and takedown training aren't much more in-
           | depth in judo than in jiu-jitsu, though.
        
           | com2kid wrote:
           | An ideal combo is submission wrestling combined with BJJ,
           | you'll find MMA gyms train this way.
           | 
           | As someone who used to train at an MMA gym, going to a pure
           | BJJ gym is weird because yeah, I'll shrimp out, get up to my
           | feet, and my training partner is sitting there on their knees
           | waiting for me to re-engage and my first thought is "this
           | would be a _great_ time for a kick to that completely
           | unprotected noggin right there... "
           | 
           | Of course once on the ground, the BJJ peeps dominate, which
           | is what UFC spent 3 decades demonstrating!
        
         | com2kid wrote:
         | I keep trying to tell people this. Jiu Jitsu is like playing
         | chess and your limbs are the pieces, it is a serious mental and
         | physical workout.
         | 
         | Though don't discount other forms of martial arts, the amount
         | of mental effort in kickboxing is still high, the coordination
         | needed to be planning your foot work and balance out 2 or 3
         | moves in advance is non-trivial and that alone can take years
         | to master!
         | 
         | (Also IMHO kickboxing is a more intense workout than rolling,
         | my opinion consisting of a polar heart rate monitor strapped to
         | my chest ;) )
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | hinkley wrote:
       | I don't know if this has changed for younger generations, but a
       | lot of people, particularly those in intellectual pursuits,
       | suffer to one degree or another from thinking of themselves as a
       | brain being carried around as a meat sack.
       | 
       | We are learning more about mind body connections and this is very
       | not true (the ways the vagus nerve can totally fuck with your
       | mental state is terrifying, and there are people with
       | dysfunctions that are five times worse).
       | 
       | Any exercise where you think about your body as "you" helps with
       | the dysphoria, and being integrated helps with a whole lot of
       | other things.
       | 
       | Especially for men, who are conditioned to not give themselves
       | permission to have feelings and sensations affect their behavior
       | (and then surprise! Are affected anyway, with zero attempts at
       | healthy coping skills).
        
         | jalino23 wrote:
         | I don't get it. what do you mean by " brain being carried
         | around as a meat sack"?
         | 
         | >> Any exercise where you think about your body as "you"
         | 
         | what does it mean to think of my body as me? and can you
         | provide examples of these exercises? thank you!
        
           | NikolaNovak wrote:
           | Not the op but the first quote completely describes my
           | approach.
           | 
           | I am me. The intellect, the mind, the person.
           | 
           | My body is what carries my intellect, not completely distinct
           | from the way a car or bicycle or wheelchair might. I don't
           | identify with my body as "me". I have at best a cordial
           | relationship with my body.
        
           | haswell wrote:
           | A lot of people feel like "they" are somewhere inside their
           | head. They look out at the world through eyes that are
           | windows. The world is out there, "I" am in here. In this
           | undefined black hole of "me", mysterious, but definitely
           | separate from the world and what's "out there" past one's
           | eyes.
           | 
           | They feel like their bodies are just the mechanical thing
           | that carries them around. They don't think of the systemic
           | impact of things that affect their body and consequently,
           | their brain and mental states. E.g. gut health plays a major
           | role in mental health, but this is not an intuitive concept
           | for many people.
           | 
           | Some have argued this is an outcome of Judeo-Christian
           | thinking, e.g. my soul is not of this world, this body isn't
           | my best body, my soul passes on when I die, etc. These ideas
           | are deeply ingrained from an early age, during the time in
           | which one is forming their concept of self.
        
             | joker_minmax wrote:
             | From my perspective, the belief that the soul and the body
             | are totally separate and that the body is lesser is not
             | actually a Christian belief, but rather a Gnostic one.
             | Unfortunately a lot of the Christianity of America has a
             | twinge of Gnosticism present. The "C.S. Lewis" quote that
             | gets thrown around, "You don't have a soul; you are a soul.
             | You have a body," was never actually said by C.S. Lewis. I
             | actually got a better connection with my body from
             | listening to an Eastern Christian priest talking about how
             | if you think you can separate your body, mind, and soul
             | from each other, you've created a false sense of self.
        
         | haswell wrote:
         | > _suffer to one degree or another from thinking of themselves
         | as a brain being carried around as a meat sack_
         | 
         | This was me for most of my life.
         | 
         | Yoga has been life changing. Cultivating full body awareness
         | and presence opened my eyes to states of being that I didn't
         | know I was capable of experiencing.
         | 
         | I can feel the subtle changes in strength each day, or a touch
         | of soreness, or the exact spot that anxiety has settled into in
         | my gut.
         | 
         | Gaining the level of focus needed brought with it a deeper and
         | broader awareness of my emotional states, and the realization
         | that I have some separation from them, i.e. they != me. This in
         | turn helped me unwind some big things I'd been dealing with in
         | therapy.
         | 
         | In retrospect, it makes so much sense to think of my body as an
         | integral part of who I am and how I feel.
         | 
         | But that's a mode of thinking that I was certainly never
         | introduced to as a kid, and never experienced by default.
        
         | throwaway22032 wrote:
         | I agree with this.
         | 
         | I don't think that it's unique to the mind body connection
         | either. It's very popular for people to try and look at things
         | in isolation, to try and "scientifically prove" that what they
         | are doing is efficacious, to distill to first principles.
         | 
         | In an academic context this is absolutely the correct thing to
         | do.
         | 
         | But for our lives? You are a human being - you evolved to
         | think, to make love, to run, to get outside and touch grass, to
         | labour for things, to... well, we are general intelligences -
         | generalists.
         | 
         | There is something to be said for accepting that and not
         | looking for the "efficiency hack" that allows you to minimise
         | what it is to be the thing that you _are_.
        
         | joker_minmax wrote:
         | Our society has suffered massively from this disconnect. I
         | honestly do feel like our computer and avatar-oriented society
         | is fuelling it. Like the benefit for men you mentioned, I think
         | women have a unique benefit too: a lot of women's healthcare
         | knowledge has been suppressed, and developing these skills of
         | bodily awareness helps with self-knowledge of those things.
        
         | cgb223 wrote:
         | > the ways the vagus nerve can totally fuck with your mental
         | state is terrifying, and there are people with dysfunctions
         | that are five times worse
         | 
         | What are some examples of this?
        
         | mudita wrote:
         | The thing that made me transition from a mindset of "I have a
         | body" to "I am a body", was actually Zen meditation. This was
         | surprising to me. Before I tried it, I thought of meditation as
         | a purely mental thing, I didn't expect that the first really
         | noticeable effect of regular meditation would be a changed
         | relationship to my body,
         | 
         | Much later I discovered contemporary dance, quit my phd in
         | machine learning and became a professional dancer, which really
         | deepened my body awareness and transformed my relationship to
         | being a body even more.
         | 
         | I remember, in the beginning of my dance career, after a three
         | month dance intensive I applied to a (Haskell) programming job
         | again to finance my dance education and went to a computer
         | science conference. It was a bit of surreal experience. The
         | people at the conference were very nice and intellectually
         | curious people and I liked them, but the contrast to the
         | environment in dance communities was very strong. I felt like
         | almost everybody there thought of them-self as a brain,
         | piloting a body like a big mecha. In the dance environments,
         | even during lunch breaks etc., it always felt like there was a
         | lot of subtle awareness in everybody about their own body, the
         | other bodies in the space, the distances and empty space
         | between bodies, a non-verbal channel full of quiet energy and
         | information. In the computer science conference this channel
         | was just dead.
        
           | mieubrisse wrote:
           | That sounds like a fascinating journey that I'd love to read;
           | have you written anything about it? I'm a born-and-raised
           | software engineer (read: meat mecha mindset), but I recently
           | became interested in dance when I moved to Brazil as many
           | people there have this unconscious connection with dance and
           | their body that I envy. In my case, I'm dimly aware of that
           | non-verbal channel you mentioned, but I struggle to
           | comminicate on it and - if I'm being honest - doing so makes
           | me feel vulnerable and awkward.
        
           | danaris wrote:
           | While the phenomenon you describe is certainly real, I think
           | that you may also have been misperceiving part of it: Having
           | a deep belief/understanding that your _self_ is your whole
           | body does not require having a highly-trained body or a
           | strong kinesthetic sense. There could have been many people
           | at that conference who shared your belief, but had not taken
           | the _years of physical training_ to make that externally
           | apparent.
        
           | hinkley wrote:
           | It was tai chi for me, but I started that after Buddhism and
           | zen. I could never get comfortable. Not as in 3 out of 10
           | pain scale, but 7.5-8.5 out of 10. Having people tell you to
           | ignore the pain is unhelpful when they imaging paper cut and
           | you're feeling knife wound.
           | 
           | Tai chi has a warmup that's an easy shift into standing
           | meditation.
        
           | johnea wrote:
           | Mostly the kind that involves getting up from your seat and
           | going outside...
           | 
           | After that, the more cardio exercise you get the better...
        
           | divan wrote:
           | One of the most amazing comments I've seen on HN. Thank you
           | for sharing this!
        
         | johnea wrote:
         | Mostly the kind that involves getting up from your seat and
         | going outside...
         | 
         | After that, the more cardio exercise you get the better...
        
         | nomilk wrote:
         | For a _fundamental_ appreciation of how the body affects mental
         | state, see Robert Sapolsky lecture biology lecture. It doesn 't
         | talk of exercise specifically, but it leaves no doubt of the
         | strong influence of the body on the mind (and vice versa).
         | 
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNnIGh9g6fA
        
         | chiefalchemist wrote:
         | > We are learning more about mind body connections and this is
         | very not true...
         | 
         | We are RE-learning. Look at all the "new science" on
         | psychedelics. Or gut bacteria. Etc.
         | 
         | I'm not sure what the bottleneck is...we did not evolve to sit
         | all day, inside, at desk, gazing into screens. It really is
         | *that* simple.
         | 
         | p.s. While nothing revolutionary new per se "The Comfort
         | Crisis" by Michael Easter goes a solid job making the case for
         | "this is where we came from, stop thinking where we are is
         | compatible."
        
           | hinkley wrote:
           | > We are RE-learning.
           | 
           | Fair point. I got accused of the "noble savage" myth recently
           | in another post and I went the wrong way with it. In trying
           | to be better stewards of the natural world we are looking at
           | vestige civilizations that never lost it, but the fact of the
           | matter is that if you watch history shows, one I'm thinking
           | of was a recreation of feudal life in Tudor England, Western
           | Europeans used to "know" many, many of these things too, but
           | they forgot it all in the Industrial Revolution, then
           | encountered civilizations that hadn't forgotten, and ground
           | them to dust, instead of remembering.
           | 
           | After hundreds of years of trying to solve problems with the
           | same level of thinking that created them, there's always a
           | set of people who are asking questions about the trip we are
           | on. There's a fine line between pastoralism and compromise
           | that we haven't worked it out yet, and we don't even always
           | see it when it happens.
           | 
           | There's a circumstantial chain of evidence out there that
           | David Hume injected Eastern Philosophy into The
           | Enlightenment. If that's even a little true, this big
           | philosophical Step Forward was really a step "back", or maybe
           | sideways.
           | 
           | And I think we still don't know where the Stoics got their
           | ideas from. Themselves, or Buddhism?
        
       | hisnameisjimmy wrote:
       | A key unlock for me was doing exercise where at some point I was
       | trying so hard and breathing so aggressively that I couldn't
       | really think anymore, I could only focus on the task at hand. For
       | me, that's been biking up steep hills. I like biking because I
       | get to see a bunch of cool stuff and if I go up hills I get a
       | dope view.
       | 
       | I joke that doing these rides feels like I'm re-boring my
       | arteries because my heart pumps so hard. I feel great afterward.
       | Recommend!
        
         | GoRudy wrote:
         | Same same. Also when not biking bootcamp classes get me to the
         | same place of only thinking about the workout / excercises at
         | hand. 50 min - 90 min feels like the sweet spot in terms of
         | time.
        
         | throwaway22032 wrote:
         | Yep.
         | 
         | Another example - it's pretty damn hard to think about doing
         | the laundry when you have 100+ kg on your back.
        
         | hinkley wrote:
         | When I was trying to integrate a definition of "flow" that
         | covered my many experiences, it wasn't biking up hills per se,
         | it was those moments where bad shit almost happened and I saw a
         | way through and just did it. Riding through gravel, loose dogs,
         | when the "fast guy" tried to drop the pack and found me on his
         | wheel.
         | 
         | I think I agree with you that these experiences are pivotal,
         | because they are moments when you just _are_ without thinking.
         | That constant monologue some of us carrying our heads is gone,
         | and the universe didn't end.
         | 
         | Taking that information and finding the spot halfway between
         | the two is the real lesson, IME.
        
         | lm28469 wrote:
         | You might be interested in
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath:_The_New_Science_of_a...
        
       | joewhale wrote:
       | My wife had severe post partum depression twice. I wonder how
       | much of it is linked to lack of exercise.
        
         | joker_minmax wrote:
         | It could be a factor, but it's also worth noting the full
         | extent of the effects of the hormonal changes during and post-
         | pregnancy still aren't well understood. Estradiol messes even
         | with your body's usage of adenosine for petesake
        
       | comfypotato wrote:
       | I'd never seen "an overview of systematic reviews" before -- I
       | would have thought this was already common sense, but it should
       | be now more than ever.
       | 
       | I was a little confused about the "less is better" part of the
       | article. I think it just meant diminishing returns with more
       | exercise, but it _says_ that less is actually better.
        
         | coldtea wrote:
         | Well, aside from diminishing returns, there are also injuries,
         | physical stress, and other issues with going too much...
        
         | Swizec wrote:
         | > I was a little confused about the "less is better" part of
         | the article.
         | 
         | I ~workout~ train 20+ hours per week. This is definitely bad
         | for my mental health, but the goals won't achieve themselves.
         | 
         | Turns out qualifying for Boston is no joke.
        
         | formerly_proven wrote:
         | WHO recommends at least an hour of moderate+ activity per day
         | which virtually nobody with an office job in the 1st world
         | manages to do. The notion that you could accidentally do too
         | much exercise is ridiculous unless you go all-in-gym-bro.
        
           | hiq wrote:
           | According to
           | https://www.who.int/initiatives/behealthy/physical-activity,
           | the recommendation you mentioned is for children and
           | teenagers up to 17 years old.
           | 
           | "Adults aged 18-64 years"
           | 
           | > Should do at least 150 minutes of moderate-intensity
           | physical activity throughout the week, or do at least 75
           | minutes of vigorous-intensity physical activity, or an
           | equivalent combination of both.
           | 
           | > For additional health benefits, adults should increase
           | their moderate-intensity physical activity to 300 minutes per
           | week, or equivalent.
           | 
           | > Muscle-strengthening activities should be done involving
           | major muscle groups on 2 or more days a week.
        
           | mejutoco wrote:
           | Taking a walk might qualify. Any dog owner can easily meet
           | this requirement.
        
           | coldtea wrote:
           | > _virtually nobody with an office job in the 1st world
           | manages to do_
           | 
           | An hour or more of moderate activity per day? Dunno about
           | that impossibility of one hour. Perhaps you're talking about
           | some hectic Amazon-style working environmen,t or people that
           | just had babies, or commute for 1 hours each way?
        
           | comfypotato wrote:
           | The statement was referring to mental health. The data is
           | clear for things like cardio that more is always better. I'd
           | never heard that less (read 2.5 he/wk) is a sweet spot for
           | mental health.
        
         | whakim wrote:
         | Once you're exercising (training) a lot then it starts to feel
         | like you _need_ to do it, and you need to do enough of it and
         | do it in the right way. I 'm a cyclist, and I know that I'm
         | grumpy/irritable/depressed if I haven't ridden. If I have a
         | particularly tough session to do that day it can sometimes feel
         | like a weight around my neck.
        
       | 1MachineElf wrote:
       | To what extent? Being too tired and exhausted to have negative
       | thoughts doesn't necessarily mean that exercise itself is a
       | fundamental solution.
        
         | spiderice wrote:
         | Did you read the article? It says 2.5 hours per weeks is the
         | sweet spot. Spread between 4-5 session. Hardly enough to
         | exhaust you to the point of not being able to have negative
         | thoughts.
        
         | SketchySeaBeast wrote:
         | They don't say you needed to do a lot (in fact they say that
         | you get best results by NOT doing too much). There's a bevy of
         | feel good effects that fall outside of just being "too tired".
        
         | hi41 wrote:
         | I think you are learning different skills as you explore
         | different forms of exercise. As you develop those habits of
         | exercise and connection to people, you are able to answer the
         | call of depression with walking one day, running the second
         | day, doing Yoga the third day, cycling the 4th day,
         | communicating with people and so on.
         | 
         | It's no that you won't face depression and anxiety but now you
         | have groked the skills in your body, you are able to answer it
         | with action and not just give mental arguments.
        
       | uejfiweun wrote:
       | A lot of people are saying Jiu Jitsu. I'd actually extend that to
       | most contact martial arts. I wrestled in high school and it was
       | fucking brutal. In fact, wrestling made me appreciate my life a
       | lot more, because it's so much easier than wrestling. They call
       | it "the most fun you never want to have again".
       | 
       | The grueling, daily, multi-hour practices... the extreme physical
       | conditioning required to succeed... the extremely nerve-wracking
       | matches, especially the lead up to them... honestly, my FAANG job
       | is a total joke compared to the difficulty of this stuff. I think
       | wrestling prepared me quite well for life.
        
       | gatane wrote:
       | Dunno, I was in Taekwondo as a kid and it made my anxiety worse,
       | because I was always watched by my parents or had to do the moves
       | in certain way. Could not do exercise on my own, and school was
       | already lonesome.
        
       | johnea wrote:
       | Mostly the kind that involves getting up from your seat and going
       | outside...
       | 
       | After that, the more cardio exercise you get the better...
        
       | paddw wrote:
       | The article does not answer the question. (I don't believe there
       | _is_ a straightforward best answer but the article does not so
       | much as make a conjecture beyond the most obvious prerequisites.)
        
         | coldtea wrote:
         | It's burried in the article, but it's there: exact type doesn't
         | matter, higher intensity / making you breath harder is better,
         | dimminishing returns above 2.5 hours per week.
        
           | wakefulsales wrote:
           | stronger than diminishing returns - negative returns
           | 
           | Depression Four reviews42 44 57 58 presented analyses by
           | weekly session duration (68 component RCTs, >5016
           | participants, online supplemental eFigure 12). The median SMD
           | for <=150 min/week and >150 min/week was -0.58 (IQR=-0.77 to
           | -0.30) and -0.29 (IQR=-0.40 to -0.07), respectively.
           | 
           | Anxiety One review58 provided analyses by weekly session
           | duration (17 component RCTs, online supplemental eFigure 13).
           | The median SMDs for <150 min/week and >=150 min/week were
           | -1.23 and -0.99, respectively.
        
             | hinkley wrote:
             | I am inclined to agree with them. Things really started
             | looking up for me when I was doing about 90 minutes of one
             | exercise and 2-3 hours a week of a second.
             | 
             | I definitely got the impression that this was working
             | better than when I rode 15-25 hours a week, and there were
             | definite diminishing returns with walking for distance. Not
             | unlike how the first few bites of a candy bar are most of
             | your experience and then at the end you're mostly just
             | finishing it. After the second or third bite it's all
             | downhill.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | comfypotato wrote:
         | It promotes higher intensity exercising. If you're breathing
         | hard, that's a good sign.
         | 
         | (For mental health.)
        
           | pasquinelli wrote:
           | that's not how i understand the term "high intensity."
           | jogging makes me pant, but i wouldn't call it high intensity,
           | because i can do it for twenty minutes.
           | 
           | high intensity would be work you can do for only maybe a
           | minute, not twenty, and as a result it won't keep your heart
           | rate elevated very long.
           | 
           | so if they're basically saying 30 minutes 5 days a week,
           | that's low intensity exercise.
        
             | EatingWithForks wrote:
             | Low intensity shouldn't involve panting at all, because low
             | intensity exercises are designed for people with specific
             | health issues where anything above slight exercise is
             | dangerous to them. [consider: significant osteoperosis,
             | serious heart disease, etc] Stretching is low intensity
             | exercise.
             | 
             | Also, an exercise you can only keep up for 20 minutes at a
             | time is pretty high intensity.
        
             | GavinMcG wrote:
             | > high intensity would be work you can do for only maybe a
             | minute, not twenty
             | 
             | Actually according to the article, high intensity can be
             | done for twenty minutes. So what you're calling "low
             | intensity" is actually "high intensity."
             | 
             | (Funny how this works both directions, isn't it?)
        
       | formerly_proven wrote:
       | Any exercise is much much better than sitting around for hours
       | researching and reading articles about which exercise would be
       | best.
       | 
       | According to reader mode this article is about 10 minutes long so
       | instead of reading it, go for a walk.
        
       | x86x87 wrote:
       | Weight lifting. Barbell. Compound movements. That is all
        
         | dnsco wrote:
         | I love heavy compound lifts, but find it does something
         | different than cardio. I get maximum benefit when I do both.
        
       | oldstrangers wrote:
       | It's not exercise (outside the hiking) but ... camping is amazing
       | and a great start if you're not inclined to do much. Limited
       | responsibilities, and the responsibilities you do have (cooking,
       | staying warm, not dying) help sort of reset some biological
       | imperative that gets lost when you're entirely too comfortable at
       | home on the couch.
       | 
       | Any form of cycling really clears my head. The sensory
       | stimulation, the forced focus, the sense of freedom, it's
       | wonderful.
        
       | carvking wrote:
       | Jordan Peterson mentioned free weights - the balancing requires a
       | lot of minute balancing moves
        
       | newsclues wrote:
       | Weight lifting, walking in a forest, hiking up mountains have all
       | been beneficial to me.
        
       | gmiller123456 wrote:
       | The best exercise is the one you'll stick with.
       | 
       | For me that's cycling and kayaking, alternating every day. I had
       | tried running just because it's convenient and requires very
       | little gear, but found it incredibly boring. But many of my
       | friends absolutley love running. So asking others might help with
       | some ideas, but ods are, you'll prefer something else.
        
       | x3874 wrote:
       | [flagged]
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | chaostheory wrote:
       | > The benefits of exercise might not be immediate, says Singh,
       | but they should show up within weeks or months. Beyond that, the
       | longer people engaged in exercise, the less beneficial it became
       | for their mental health. This may be because they were sticking
       | to the program less, due to waning motivation or, perhaps,
       | injury. It could also be because the exercise itself began to
       | feel less novel and more repetitive.
       | 
       | This is exactly why I use a Quest 2 / pro to workout. When you're
       | killing zombies, fighting ninjas, or boxing fighters, working out
       | is almost always novel. I'm just playing VR video games, which is
       | why it's easy to keep a routine even after 3 years
       | 
       | I hope Apple Vision can provide this benefit to people who are
       | still skittish about even trying the current generation of VR
       | headsets
        
         | cpursley wrote:
         | Do you not have access to the outdoors? Parks, paths, etc? The
         | physical is only one aspect of it.
        
           | chaostheory wrote:
           | * * *
        
         | ghotli wrote:
         | Mind sharing which games on the quest you find yourself
         | returning to?
        
       | weare138 wrote:
       | But you have to be able to break the depression cycle to begin
       | with in order to do things like exercise. It's the chicken before
       | the egg problem.
        
       | karmakaze wrote:
       | I've read sudoku bing good exercise to avoid early deterioration
       | as you age--use it or lose it. I find Go (board game) to be more
       | interesting and develops a lot of cross-transferable skills
       | outside of only games or memory. Playing StarCraft 2 is also a
       | fun(?) way of maintaining speed.
        
         | hinkley wrote:
         | Aji is my favorite concept from Go. In Go is it common for a
         | failure to persist on the board. There are better moves, and
         | some fights have to be won twice if you capture, so it's better
         | to leave them until the end.
         | 
         | But Aji is attacking near a loss, turning the loss into a win
         | (very, very rarely, resurrecting the dead pieces). The
         | existence of a failure on the board can put pressure on
         | neighboring areas, and they can still sometimes be turned to a
         | redemption story. Lose ten stones here but gain 8 nearby. Still
         | a loss but maybe enough to win the overall game.
        
       | throwaway22032 wrote:
       | The last part of the article has the best takeaways IMO.
       | 
       | Start slow, find something that you enjoy. Escalate as and when
       | you can.
       | 
       | Too many people think of exercise as like, get on the treadmill
       | and run as hard as you can and make yourself feel like shit to
       | the extent that you can't go again for a week. The vast majority
       | of people, even people who train hard, don't do things like that.
        
       | teekert wrote:
       | I like mountain biking on very technical tracks, I can't really
       | think of anything other than the track, it requires full
       | attention. I like that. Put me on a speed cycle (not sure what
       | the English word is), it gets boring, my mind starts to wander, I
       | don't even remember what route I took.
        
         | Toutouxc wrote:
         | Exactly, there's something about the forced attention. I've
         | upgraded my flat-bottom touring kayak to a faster one that's
         | kind of narrow and tippy and it forces me to think about my
         | technique and movement a lot. Compared to my older boat, the
         | trips have gotten much less sightsee-y but at the same time
         | more relaxing.
        
         | exabrial wrote:
         | +1 for MTB and agree on technical climbing. You have to plan
         | the line about 2-3 moves ahead.
        
         | uejfiweun wrote:
         | This sport didn't really click for me. I think I'm just not
         | coordinated enough for it. No sport has left me bruised and
         | bloody and just mentally broken like mountain biking has. I
         | also didn't really enjoy the experience of having to sit on an
         | extremely bumpy bike for hours on end. To each their own,
         | though - I am jealous that folks get to enjoy a sport that
         | takes them deep into the beauty of nature.
        
           | teekert wrote:
           | I live in the Netherlands, we still call it mountain biking
           | because of the bike but yeah... [0]. Mostly it gets technical
           | on single tracks. Not nearly as dangerous as in real
           | mountains I presume. This is typical: [1]
           | 
           | [0] https://dutchreview.com/culture/history/netherlands-flat/
           | 
           | [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0_MNbdrHEA
        
             | uejfiweun wrote:
             | I imagine that would be a little better. Last time I went
             | mountain biking was in Sedona, AZ - extremely stressful.
             | You're biking up narrow mountain passes, and if you fall,
             | decent chance you fall directly onto a cactus. I'm a clumsy
             | guy, and I prefer for the consequences for my clumsiness to
             | be like spillage, not impalement.
        
         | 6LLvveMx2koXfwn wrote:
         | Road Bike (as opposed to Mountain Bike)
        
           | cpursley wrote:
           | No Semis, Brodozers or Soccer mom SUVs on mountain bike
           | rides. Road biking is unacceptably risky. Not judging, it's
           | the other people on the road who I don't trust.
        
       | lethologica wrote:
       | I've had major clinical depression for the last 15 years or so.
       | The first 4 months of this year was the lowest I've ever been.
       | During that time though I was going to the gym 6 days a week
       | doing weight lifting and then I would cycle 50km a day on top of
       | that. All of it was on autopilot however, my depression just
       | wouldn't allow me to focus on anything but it.
       | 
       | Luckily I had been building up the habit for years in advance but
       | that was the most I had ever exercised and it was also the most I
       | had ever been depressed. In my case I don't think the exercise
       | helped at all. Perhaps if I hadn't of been exercising maybe I
       | wouldn't even be here now though... I'm not entirely sure.
       | Finding the right medication and getting therapy has been what
       | has really helped me. With those two I can see an almost day and
       | night difference but with the exercise I noticed no difference at
       | all. At least I had a great physique though!
        
       | oscribinn wrote:
       | 2.5 hours a week is insanely low for any young person in good
       | health. I'm positive that at least 8-12 hours of determined,
       | physically intensive training compared to a measly 2.5 hours of
       | "exercise" per week will do a hell of a lot better for anyone's
       | mental health than treating the usage of one's body as somehow
       | secondary to the "knowledge based" work we're all forced to do to
       | make a decent living in modern society.
        
       | foobarbecue wrote:
       | Surfing, obviously.
        
       | Yajirobe wrote:
       | Nobody mentioning rock climbing? Come on, I bet half of Hacker
       | News partakes in it
        
         | coldtea wrote:
         | Sounds like a hugely echo bubbly view of the popularity of rock
         | climbing and the HN demographic
        
           | eastof wrote:
           | Indoor climbers are all software engineers in some cities. In
           | Seattle and San Francisco in particular, nearly everyone I
           | meet there is also a software engineer. The gyms are so
           | expensive that they are the only ones who can afford it with
           | FAANG subsidies.
           | 
           | Outdoor though you're right, totally different demographic
           | and very few of them are software engineers.
        
         | pcthrowaway wrote:
         | I climb, but I doubt 5% of hacker news does. In fact, among
         | software engineers (few of whom rock climb in my experience), I
         | suspect the ones who climb are less likely to be on HN
        
           | hinkley wrote:
           | If all my joints worked the way I would like I'd be spending
           | half as much time talking about my hobbies online. It's what
           | I do in the in between times.
        
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