[HN Gopher] Fully Open Public Licence
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       Fully Open Public Licence
        
       Author : pabs3
       Score  : 44 points
       Date   : 2023-06-24 11:05 UTC (11 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (github.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
        
       | cornstalks wrote:
       | > _## Have you any legal background, are your changes sound?_
       | 
       | > _No I do not, and I have no idea._
       | 
       | > _I would greatly prefer to have a legal professional draft
       | these changes. In lieu of that, I have tried to approach this by
       | combining existing professionally drafted texts, and minimised
       | adding my own wording._
       | 
       | It's an interesting idea for a license but no one should use this
       | until it's been reviewed by a competent lawyer.
        
       | phkahler wrote:
       | Don't make any more open source or Free Software licenses. All
       | the bases are covered and any code under yet another license just
       | raises questions and prevent sharing between projects.
        
       | reaperman wrote:
       | We definitely need something like this. Not sure if this is it,
       | as I, like the author, am not a lawyer. I'd need technology
       | lawyers to analyze it for me. So although it doesn't add anything
       | substantive to the HN discussion, I'd like to voice my approval
       | for any efforts made towards a strong license in this spirit.
        
       | Jiro wrote:
       | This is a crayon license.
       | https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists...
        
       | ReactiveJelly wrote:
       | Interesting. The "why" section answered my questions - it appears
       | to be an even stronger copyleft than the agpl
        
         | prepend wrote:
         | I don't think so. It seems like the agpl covers everything this
         | does as I don't think agpl cares about interactive vs non-
         | interactive.
         | 
         | That being said, I hope people choose to use this new license.
        
           | tzs wrote:
           | The difference between GPLv3 and AGPLv3 is:
           | 
           | 1. The name.
           | 
           | 2. Section 13's title is changed from "Use with the GNU
           | Affero General Public License" to "Remote Network
           | Interaction; Use with the GNU General Public License" and
           | this is inserted before its first paragraph:
           | 
           | > Notwithstanding any other provision of this License, if you
           | modify the Program, your modified version must prominently
           | offer all users interacting with it remotely through a
           | computer network (if your version supports such interaction)
           | an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source of your
           | version by providing access to the Corresponding Source from
           | a network server at no charge, through some standard or
           | customary means of facilitating copying of software. This
           | Corresponding Source shall include the Corresponding Source
           | for any work covered by version 3 of the GNU General Public
           | License that is incorporated pursuant to the following
           | paragraph.
           | 
           | 3. Some more is added about how the two licenses work with
           | each other.
           | 
           | The whole point of AGPL is to deal with users interactive
           | with the program (but only remotely over computer
           | networks...if they are interacting remotely with it but not
           | via a computer network or if they are interacting locally
           | then AGPL is effectively GPL).
        
             | whartung wrote:
             | Consider this example:
             | 
             | You download a FOPL version of something like cron. You
             | make some changes to this code and run it on your internal
             | servers to schedule some business process.
             | 
             | Even though this software, not even the server, even
             | catches a whiff of the internet, since the software has
             | been "Deployed" for a commercial use case, the company is
             | obliged to make the changes to the code publicly available.
             | 
             | Simply, this license expands the distribution concept to
             | commercial use, whether anyone else ever encounters it or
             | not.
        
         | josephcsible wrote:
         | > an even stronger copyleft than the agpl
         | 
         | Which is a red flag. The AGPL was basically designed to be the
         | strongest possible copyleft FOSS license. When people try to
         | make even stronger ones, they usually end up making something
         | that's neither free nor open source (e.g., the SSPL), and
         | that's exactly what ended up happening here.
        
           | LexiMax wrote:
           | > When people try to make even stronger ones, they usually
           | end up making something that's neither free nor open source
           | 
           | "If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use
           | was the rule?"
           | 
           | The FSF's stewardship of copyleft has led us to the current
           | status quo, where the GPLv2 is still incredibly common
           | compared to v3, the AGPL is considered niche, and it seems
           | most developers these days prefer permissive licenses anyway.
           | 
           | These kinds of new licenses are exactly the breath of fresh
           | air we need. If the existing free software/open source dogma
           | says they're bad, maybe it's the dogma that's wrong.
        
         | RobotToaster wrote:
         | Seems like a weird mix of A and L GPL?                   "You
         | may create a Larger Work by combining Covered Software with
         | other code         not governed by the terms of this License
         | and distribute the Larger Work         as a single product. In
         | such a case, You must make sure the requirements         of
         | this License are fulfilled for the Covered Software."
         | 
         | Seems to imply you can use a library distributed under this
         | licence and not release the entire program source?
        
           | phkahler wrote:
           | Looks like a big gaping hole of ambiguity to me. A vague
           | attempt at license compatibility. You don't get to impose
           | terms on code under another license, and WTF does "the
           | requirements of this license are fulfilled" without saying
           | the result must be covered by this license? It's nonsense.
           | There is no room here for "you know what I mean" because at
           | best I think I know what they wish could be, but even if I'm
           | right the details are absent.
        
       | frithsun wrote:
       | Copyleft is a noble but failed endeavor. None of this legal
       | voodoo changes the facts on the ground with the big tech
       | oligopoly's control of the keystone infrastructure.
        
       | garbagecoder wrote:
       | I am a non-practicing lawyer who has moved on to other things and
       | even still, I would never draft a software license because it
       | wasn't remotely my field.
       | 
       | Either you need someone who can take the time to learn all of the
       | ins and outs and knows how to apply it, including the
       | international ones, or you can find someone who knows that stuff
       | by heart.
        
       | 2h wrote:
       | OSL already covers network use
       | 
       | https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Software_License
        
       | pabs3 wrote:
       | I note that this definitely wouldn't comply with the
       | FSD/OSD/DFSG, because it means you are forcing people to
       | communicate source to people they aren't communicating with, for
       | whatever reason; such as because they are a dissident, or on a
       | desert island, or in a domestic violence situation, or in a
       | warzone etc.
       | 
       | https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#fs-definition
       | https://opensource.org/osd
       | https://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
       | https://wiki.debian.org/DissidentTest
       | https://wiki.debian.org/DesertIslandTest
       | https://people.debian.org/~bap/dfsg-faq.html
        
         | LexiMax wrote:
         | This license seems to specifically take aim at RHEL's new
         | source distribution policy. Are we as a community okay with
         | allowing this to happen, because Red Hat is adhering to the
         | letter of the GPL and the FSD/OSD/DFSG?
         | 
         | Are those definitions unassailable truisms that are not up for
         | debate? Are the authors arguments in favor of his own license
         | not worth rebutting directly on the merits?
        
         | andybak wrote:
         | From the README:                   ## What about the Debian
         | "Political Dissident" test?                  See the above.
         | Pretty much the same thing.  Again, if I can find some
         | wording to exempt individuals from the distribution requirement
         | who would         otherwise be put at clear risk to their human
         | rights by state or corporate         actors, then I'll add such
         | wording.
        
           | pabs3 wrote:
           | That doesn't address the problem with the concept.
        
             | andybak wrote:
             | No but your comment didn't mention that the topic had been
             | acknowledged - so it adds useful context that was missing.
        
       | osigurdson wrote:
       | I think this is meant to be the IBM / RHEL antidote licence in
       | spirit. Makes sense. However, it isn't clear what should / would
       | happen if the website you host your code on disappears. Would
       | tricksters at IBM simply claim that their website which hosts the
       | code has been undergoing maintenance for a year? At the other end
       | of the spectrum, would litigious slime sue a maintainer if github
       | is down for 5 minutes? "Publicly available" probably needs more
       | rigorous legal definition.
        
         | phkahler wrote:
         | >> I think this is meant to be the IBM / RHEL antidote licence
         | in spirit. Makes sense.
         | 
         | You mean RH only releasing source to paying customers who have
         | agreed though other arrangements not to share it? That's a GPL
         | violation waiting for a court case.
        
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       (page generated 2023-06-24 23:02 UTC)