[HN Gopher] How to do the thing you've been avoiding
___________________________________________________________________
How to do the thing you've been avoiding
Author : duck
Score : 481 points
Date : 2023-06-22 03:54 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jasonfeifer.beehiiv.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (jasonfeifer.beehiiv.com)
| mr_gibbins wrote:
| When I procrastinate, it stems from the thought, 'I don't really
| want to do this (right now|at all)'.
|
| So one way to jump that hurdle is consider the consequences of
| _not_ doing it, and how that makes me feel. For example, learning
| French. I would like to speak French. The consequence of not
| putting in the hours conjugating verbs means I will not be able
| to speak French. That makes me sad. I consider that sadness, and
| conclude I would prefer to spend the next hour reinforcing my
| knowledge of the passe compose of avoir. That is better than
| feeling sad.
|
| Some consequences are not obvious, but cumulative. I don't really
| want to go to the stand-up meeting. What happens if I don't go
| today? Probably not much. But what happens if I don't go for the
| rest of the week, or my attendance is patchy? It'll be noticed,
| and I'll have to explain why I am not on the calls. The thought
| of the explanation makes me uncomfortable, more uncomfortable
| than going to the calls. Therefore I go to the calls.
|
| Where this technique is powerful is that it enables me to filter
| out those activities where there is no obvious consequence of not
| doing the thing, which means the activities that remain on my
| daily list are generally pretty important.
| prox wrote:
| Just to help you out on speaking French, the
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_francaise is pretty
| good. They have in person classes and you learn quickly with
| just a few hours a week!
| P-Nuts wrote:
| J'aimerais bien trouver un cours en classe. J'en ai ras-le-
| bol de la formation sur internet. Malheureusement l'Alliance
| Francaise la plus proche est a 2h de chez moi. Je m'etais
| inscrit a un cours intermediaire d'une autre organisation
| locale, mais il a ete annule car il n'y avait pas assez
| d'etudiants.
| prox wrote:
| C'est trop mal.
|
| Actually I can't speak or write it fully, but I can
| understand you for the most part. I didn't reach that B1-2
| proficiency because I got hired around that time.
| P-Nuts wrote:
| Probably "c'est dommage" would be more idiomatic for
| "it's too bad".
|
| I got into relearning French during the pandemic. I did
| learn it at school (age 11-16) but that was well over 20
| years ago.
| dboreham wrote:
| Quel dommage ?
| Rels wrote:
| As-tu essaye italki ? J'utilise ca pour apprendre le
| japonais.
|
| (BTW awesome French, no weird sentence structure or obvious
| mistake apart from the missing accent on "est a 2h")
| P-Nuts wrote:
| Non, je ne l'ai pas encore essaye. Je suppose que ca
| devrait etre ma prochaine etape, mais je n'aime pas
| parler en visio.
|
| Pour l'instant, je suis content de lire des livres et
| d'ecouter des podcasts.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| >"des podcasts".
|
| Uh oh!
|
| "Cessez d'ecouter des "podcasts", preferez l'audio a la
| demande"
| https://actualitte.com/article/7421/distribution/cessez-
| d-ec...
|
| I don't speak French but I find the official aversion to
| anglicisms endearing and amusing.
| monsieurgaufre wrote:
| As a french speaking Quebecer, we use "podcast" or
| "Balado" (short for baladodiffusion
| https://vitrinelinguistique.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/fiche-
| gdt/fiche/... ).
|
| Please do not think that French is only in France. We use
| words here that french people won't understand and they
| do the same. And the aversion to anglicisms varies a lot
| depending on the person (ie "footing", a non-existing
| word in english in the sense used, is used in France to
| say "jogging").
| P-Nuts wrote:
| I think the official language authorities are fighting a
| losing battle on that one!
| mr_gibbins wrote:
| Thank you, this is news to me, I've been using the 'Learn
| French with Alexa' series on YT, plus a French dictionary and
| some magazines etc. I'll check it out!
| prox wrote:
| Great! The nice thing is that the teachers are often French
| and you can make friends and practice the language at the
| same time.
| abosherid wrote:
| Is there an Italian version of this?
| prox wrote:
| I have looked online a little bit, but apart from some
| cultural centers around embassies not that I can see. They
| have an official cultural center, but only 80 worldwide vs
| 1000+ of Alliance Francaise.
|
| Maybe just language centers or local people offering
| classes might be your best bet. Maybe an Italian aficionado
| can chip in on this one.
| SanderNL wrote:
| > I would prefer to spend the next hour reinforcing my
| knowledge of the passe compose of avoir. That is better than
| feeling sad.
|
| But it's not better than catching up on sleep, netflix and/or a
| great meal with a fantastic conversational partner.
|
| > The thought of the explanation makes me uncomfortable, more
| uncomfortable than going to the calls. Therefore I go to the
| calls.
|
| My mind would answer: "I'll take the 10min akward explanation
| for 5 missed meetings mr Gibbins. No problem."
|
| Why not go to the calls because it is your duty? If nothing
| else, it makes you dependable and you can be proud of your
| virtuous follow-through.
|
| Doing things only to prevent the penalty feels like a negative
| way of looking at things and, for my monkey mind, one that is
| ultimately doomed to fail. Instead of aiming for the stars, my
| mind just gets better at dealing with the penalties. It might
| just be me though.
| mr_gibbins wrote:
| I agree, doing things to prevent a penalty is probably worse
| than classic positive reinforcement/conditioning, doing
| things to get a reward. It's not healthy in the long-term.
|
| However some things are generally pretty awful (such as
| standups) and don't really have a positive outcome that's
| easy to focus on and identify as a reward - not in my place
| of work anyway, YMMV!
|
| So yes, in this case I could go because it's my duty (and try
| to feel proud of that!) but arguably forcing myself to turn
| up by focusing on what happens if I don't is also pretty
| effective, and is basically just like jump-starting a car -
| as other commenters have noted, merely beginning the
| undesirable thing is the biggest hurdle.
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| >But it's not better than catching up on sleep, netflix
| and/or a great meal with a fantastic conversational partner.
|
| There's not a lot of pleasure of doing those things if your
| mind is consumed by the fact you're behind in something else.
| SanderNL wrote:
| That's true.
|
| You're probably high on conscientiousness if that's the
| case though. In which case procrastination is not something
| you are allowed to talk about because you literally don't
| know what it is.
|
| Joking of course, but I have quite a few people who score
| high on conscientiousness around me. I myself am not such a
| person. I say they have absolutely no idea what
| procrastionation even means. Being a day late on a minor
| thing will be an existential threat to them. It is amazing
| and I watch them as I watch magnificent wildlife. Full of
| awe and wonder.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| Then you have people like me who have to go throw the 5
| stages of grief to overcome procrastination.
|
| 1. _Denial_ of the importance or urgency of the task, and
| denial of my future self also lacking desire and
| willpower to complete said task in the future.
|
| 2. _Anger_ that I cannot magically will myself into not
| procrastinating, or anger that I even have to do the task
| in the first place.
|
| 3. _Bargaining_ how far back I can push a task back
| a.k.a. "I'll have plenty of time to do it tomorrow."
|
| 4. _Depression_ because I always mismanage my time,
| overestimate my future abilities, and seem to never learn
| from the past -- "why do I always do this to myself?"
|
| 5. _Acceptance_ that I am at the end of my rope, and I
| have to do the task now or I will face some kind of
| consequences far worse than actually doing the task
| itself.
| imtringued wrote:
| In fact, it makes it even worse.
| rjh29 wrote:
| This breaks down when you stop caring about things. Say I want
| to learn French but ... not enough to put in the work. Give it
| up right? Say I want to look like a responsible and
| professional programmer but I still can't be bothered to show
| up to meetings. Why does it matter anyway? This yields a cycle
| of self-loathing and powerlessness.
|
| So I prefer to focus on positive rewards for doing things
| instead of the consequences of avoiding them. And build from
| there.
| pxoe wrote:
| maybe another way around it is, 'do I really need it' -> 'and
| what that need is? how do I create a need for it?'. for
| language, that could be - applying that language. finding
| something that you do want to apply it to, that really gets you
| going and gives you joy. like, talking to someone, watching
| someone, listening to them talk, watching a stream, trying to
| talk to someone on that stream, reading, watching some piece of
| entertainment, in that language. and creating that 'need' for a
| 'want', and a 'want' itself - 'i want to watch those things and
| interact and chat with people - so i need language knowledge
| for that.' and maybe that could move it a bit closer. finding
| those bits that you might 'want' more readily - and then have
| those things move your goals into more of a 'need and want'
| zone, where you'd be both feeling a need of something more
| tangibly, and feel the joy in those things and possibilities of
| them more acutely and have that draw you in to do something.
|
| and maybe it's also eh, it's counterproductive, but maybe it's
| fine to just have those curiosities - and have them just be
| that. even if it's kinda 'non-committal' - maybe that's just
| kinda the dynamic for it, and that's alright. maybe some
| knowledge of language is just fine, and it's gonna be enough
| for watching or chatting, and it could be just those little
| bits of 'knowledge gain' where you look something up (like a
| word, definition, etc.) as you come across it, and amass some
| knowledge that way. this - does not help with 'how to do the
| thing', but hey - maybe there's also isn't really a need to
| beat yourself down over it either, over some 'thing about it
| you don't really want to do' when maybe it's just fine without
| it. (cause maybe that thing could be a buzzkiller that sucks
| the joy out of it, only further deterring you from it)
| PreachSoup wrote:
| This doesn't work for me or probably some other ppl. My brain's
| attention would be dragged to the consequences and still won't
| do the work.
|
| What I find useful is the vomit writing technique. I will just
| drag myself to get started no matter how horrible the work I am
| doing in the beginning. But once I started doing, I won't feel
| so bad. This basically solved my problem.
|
| I just need to start doing and do a shit job, then improve it
| to be less shitty.
| golergka wrote:
| That's also the thought process that makes people come through
| with suicide.
| dTal wrote:
| Antidepressants also sometimes give people the get-up-and-go
| to commit suicide. But in general it's good to have
| motivation to do things.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Say what you want about committing suicide, at least it's
| going out and doing a thing.
| itsfinallytime wrote:
| [dead]
| gumby wrote:
| But does not lead to long term improvement in your
| ability to do so.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Well you know what they say, if at first you don't
| succeed, try, try again :)
| benburleson wrote:
| Is this supposed to be a joke?
| moffkalast wrote:
| I take it you are supposed to be the dark humor police?
| darkerside wrote:
| Are you speculating, or is there a source for this? I'm
| genuinely curious
| golergka wrote:
| First-hand experience.
| hoc wrote:
| I think the best part here is "spend the next hour" on that
| thing. Don't go for success or finishing anything.
|
| Just spend that one hour right now.
|
| It's the only thing that ever helped me with these blocking
| situations. Afterwards I'm usually warmed up and curious.
|
| Thanks for reminding me, because I'll only feel the whole
| overwhelming abstract thing instead if the situation has gotten
| really bad.
| MobiusHorizons wrote:
| For me when a task is overwhelming enough that I have been
| procrastinating on it for a while, or have attempted to start
| it a few times unsuccessfully, the thought of working on it
| for a whole hour is usually too much. But I can usually
| identify some trivial first step and say to myself "I'll
| spend 15 minutes on that first step". If I can get into the
| task, 15 minutes can easily become hours, at least until I
| find some decision overwhelming again.
| hoc wrote:
| If it's just 15 minutes, I'll do that tonight :)
|
| But I get your point. I wanted to cite the original
| comment, though. It's true that the entry point has to be
| chosen according to the individual and the task at hand...
| as long as that's not something that has to be chosen so
| wisely that I should take time to reason about first :)
| agumonkey wrote:
| The weighting you describe is very interesting, I follow the
| same process semi consciously. I'm dealing with that right now
| on multiple front (job, family) and I'm curious to see what it
| yields to push things around as I see fit.
|
| All this makes me wonder about the art of negotiating.. at the
| existential level. You only have to do things you didn't refuse
| in a way (figure of speech). Too often I said yes without
| asking more details, or said yes to things I didn't really
| like..
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| > Where this technique is powerful is that it enables me to
| filter out those activities where there is no obvious
| consequence of not doing the thing, which means the activities
| that remain on my daily list are generally pretty important.
|
| This filtering is important. Doing X with a block of time means
| _not_ doing Y, or Z, or any of A through W. I can do anything
| with this next minute, but that means that I am not doing _all_
| the other things with that minute.
|
| So there are a pile of things that I "should" do that I am not
| doing. Which ones should I get to (even if that takes finding a
| way to defeat my avoidance), and which ones do I not need to
| get to, ever? In fact, which ones _should_ I avoid, because
| they 're going to take the time that should go to other things?
| I need some way to think about those questions.
| znpy wrote:
| How NOT to do the thing you've been avoiding: procrastinate by
| reading the "How to do the thing you've been avoiding" article
| and reading comments.
| pythonbase wrote:
| My mantra to do the things I have been avoiding is simple; Eat
| that Frog!!
| ozim wrote:
| For getting back to Jimmy - I have the feeling that a lot of
| people default to "don't bother other people, they are busy with
| their lives" soo many of my friends or acquittances rarely call
| me or try to get in touch.
|
| Of course maybe they just don't like me :D
|
| But usually I just get over my "don't bother others" inner block
| and I call a friend or family member and then we setup a meeting
| for a lunch or just some longer catch up call usually - so in the
| end they also want or like me enough that we meet after all. But
| still initial hurdle has to be overcome.
| purpleblue wrote:
| If this were Reddit, I would expect dozens of Shia LeBoeuf "Just
| Do It!" memes right now.
| lifebeyondfife wrote:
| Wait, But Why? has a fascinating series of posts on this.
| https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/10/why-procrastinators-procrasti...
|
| I bought the 52x90 poster where each square is a week of your
| life. I've filled in significant events. It helps me ensure I
| keep working on making those events coming.
| 331c8c71 wrote:
| It's actually quite simple for me. I typically don't get any
| satisfaction from starting and completing tasks I am avoiding.
| Crossing them off doesn't excite me - not in the least -
| regardless of all the motivational and time-management
| pseudoscience around. They simply make me tired and leave me with
| a feeling that I had wasted my time.
|
| It doesn't help either that such tasks are often chores or some
| kind of bureaucratic bs meaning they are basically in infinite
| supply. Once you finished with one there will be another one
| moved unconsiously from "would be nice to do" to "I should be
| doing this" category.
| hinkley wrote:
| Took a long time for my partner to either understand or just
| give up on policing my chores. She didn't understand why I
| would occasionally clean under the fridge or clear cobwebs if
| the kitchen or the floors were dirty.
|
| I'm not going to ever get to the bottom of my task list. You
| know it, I know it, my seventh grade French teacher knows it.
| But if I don't randomly do something from the bottom, then it
| will be five years and nobody has every dusted the blinds or
| vacuumed out the car or cleaned the cupboard doors because I
| sweep and mop the same floors that will be dirty again in ten
| minutes and call it a day.
|
| I won't clean the car again until the blinds are clear and the
| freezer has been defrosted, but at least it gets done once in a
| while.
| isolli wrote:
| Thanks, I wrote almost the exact same thing a few months ago.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34680970
| coliveira wrote:
| This should be upvoted more. The main reason we avoid doing
| these bureaucratic things is that they're useless in the long
| term. They're just part of the games that we play with each
| other, but it seems that the subconscious is really good at
| detecting BS and stopping us from doing that.
| aaron695 wrote:
| [dead]
| JoeDaDude wrote:
| Alison Stout from Bell Tone Synth Works, a synthesizer repair
| shop, shows the guts and theory of operation of the Mellotron,
| along with some restoration and repair tips if you own one.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByD8gH7kYxs
| justinator wrote:
| Usually the question of why I'm avoiding doing the thing I need
| to do is answered with "ADHD".
|
| Although I did appreciate the post.
| [deleted]
| wnkrshm wrote:
| Yeah, I'm dealing with it at work right now for a deadline. I'm
| using my entire tool box.
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| Care to share what some of those tools are? :)
| wnkrshm wrote:
| I have a report where the actual project work done is not
| exactly what was planned, so that's triggering some
| avoidance. It was hard to start with directly writing the
| report.
|
| So what I did is the classic 'break it down' but with a
| pinch of artificial compartmentalization from the part
| triggering the avoidance:
|
| I tried to focus only on what was actually done
| (significant in volume of work) switched to itemizing
| everything that was done first, not directly working into
| the report template.
|
| I report on each of these items in isolation first, without
| reference to the plan, which gives me momentum since the
| pages fill up fast.
|
| The last part is sorting the pages into the report
| template, according to the work items they fit best with.
|
| Edit: The idea being that the momentum from the documenting
| of the work in isolation, will carry me through producing
| relatively little text referring to the plan.
|
| It's not honorable work but it needs doing.
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| Smart! As someone who has similar challenges, this was
| interesting to read.
|
| Edit: Good luck with the report. Just the word "report"
| makes me convulse :)
| jimmaswell wrote:
| Medication made a life changing difference in my case. It's no
| longer a problem at all doing the things I want or need to do,
| like getting deeper into hobbies or starting on work projects
| I'd been dreading.
| justinator wrote:
| I have a history of family drug abuse, so I don't trust
| myself with things like meth.
|
| Also, it's been very hard to get legally.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| It was surprisingly easy for me - I went to adhdonline,
| took a long questionnaire, next day got a diagnosis back
| from a doctor who reviewed my responses, and the day after
| that I had a 30 minute zoom call and a prescription to pick
| up the same day. Not sure where you are but this service is
| available in almost every state in the US.
|
| A low dose stimulant like the methylphenidate I got isn't
| the same as getting high on meth. For someone with ADHD it
| just brings them up to feeling normal. I have a family
| history of drug abuse too but I don't think it's a good
| reason to avoid legitimate medical treatment.
| qumpis wrote:
| Doesn't adhd just exacerbate the problem, but isn't the real
| cause? Like I will sometimes avoid some tasks because they
| highlight my insecurities
| ycombinete wrote:
| ADHD is one of those "invisible disabilities". It is the same
| problems other people have: everyone gets frustrated, is
| averse to unpleasant tasks, gets bored, has to put in effort
| for executive function, seeks pleasure, _et cetera_.
|
| I think of it like a mixing desk in a music studio. Where
| these sliders have all been pushed to varying levels of
| extremity.
|
| This is why, when you explain it to a more neurotypical
| person, they will most often say, "oh yeah me too!". But it's
| like an Olympic sprinter saying that they can sprint, and an
| average joe saying, "oh yeah me too!". It's a matter of
| degrees.
| annie_muss wrote:
| A difference of degree can turn into a difference of kind.
|
| Lose 5% of your leg strength? You might not even notice.
| Lose 95%? You can't walk.
|
| This is what it's like for ADHD people. The impairment is
| enough to make it difficult to keep a job, difficult to
| maintain relationships and difficult to keep up with pretty
| much any complex aspect of adult life.
| ycombinete wrote:
| Especially when there are differences in degree across
| 4-5 characteristics.
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| > This is why, when you explain it to a more neurotypical
| person, they will most often say, "oh yeah me too!". But
| it's like an Olympic sprinter saying that they can sprint,
| and an average joe saying, "oh yeah me too!". It's a matter
| of degrees.
|
| You excellently summed up something I've struggled a lot
| with since being diagnosed a couple of years ago.
|
| This thing (ADHD) has permeated every aspect of my life in
| incredibly significant ways since I was a kid, and life
| made much more sense post diagnosis. Much much more. But,
| one of the hardest things to deal with - which I didn't
| expect - is that everyone I told would just respond, "yeah
| me too" (relating to the "symptoms", not saying they had a
| diagnosis) - essentially (without them intending to)
| invalidating my diagnosis. Or at least that's what it felt
| like - to the point that I've just stopped bringing it up.
| (Apart from in random HN threads... :)
|
| And I totally get it, because I would probably have said
| the same thing if a friend told me they had OCD. I _now_
| know that my "OCD" tendancies are very clearly "not OCD"
| and to describe them as such risks trivialising the
| challenges for people who genuinely have this condition.
|
| So I don't blame anyone really, but it does add to the
| "invisibility" of dealing with what from the inside feels
| like a very real and challenging condition and from the
| outside often just makes you look and act like a "bad
| impression of a human".
|
| :)
| annie_muss wrote:
| The executive function deficit that comes with ADHD means
| that you don't have as much control over those emotions. The
| discomfort of the task is overwhelming and so you avoid and
| procrastinate. The fact that avoiding the task is rooted in
| emotion isn't exacerbated by ADHD, it _is_ ADHD.
| jamiek88 wrote:
| Yes and it often be a _physical_ response too like my arms
| will start to have phantom aches when forcing myself to do
| something my adhd is screaming against.
|
| Weird.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| This. For me it's occasional chest pressure, and
| _constant phantom hunger_. It 's like my un/subconscious
| mind decided to go to war with the conscious part, and is
| using bodily sensations as weapons.
| edrxty wrote:
| Really well said. It's really hard to describe to
| neurotypicals because while they experience avoidant
| behavior and lack of motivation, doing the dishes doesn't
| feel like being tasked with penetrating a foot thick
| tungsten wall using only your teeth. They just think you
| should be able to do _waves hands_ something involving
| bootstraps so therefore you 're just stupid and lazy.
| reuben364 wrote:
| At the worst of times, when I had a university assignment I
| would sit at my desk to do the assignment and physically
| feel a repulsive force from my work. Like a really strong
| gust of wind.
|
| And now I have unlocked middle school memories of staying
| up all night, alternating between lying down from
| exhaustion to forcing myself to sit and write a few words
| each round for my English essays that day.
| kristjank wrote:
| This strikes me as very reductive. Anxiety or executive disorder
| is usually a better description for a lot of my deadline problems
| than simply thinking it's a bad idea. Ruminating on the process
| that makes me anxious about some great task usually makes it
| worse.
| justinator wrote:
| Is there not a search function on this site?
| Cerpicio wrote:
| Search function on HN? Scroll to the very bottom and there is a
| search box. It doesn't seem intuitive. It seems like it should
| be at the top of the page.
| justinator wrote:
| No, on the site where this fine article lives.
| justinator wrote:
| Or RSS/Atom?
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Doesn't seem so, you could visit the home page, click load
| more a couple of times, then use browser search on page.
| dormento wrote:
| > Is there not a search function on this site?
|
| Try hn.algolia.com
| PakG1 wrote:
| I've read a lot of ideas about how to do the thing I've been
| avoiding. I'm fairly convinced that the only way to do it is hire
| someone to get on my case and not let up until I get it done. Pay
| up front so that I can't get out of it by stopping the payments.
| If I get a friend or family member to do it, it'll sour the
| relationship and I don't want that. If I get a machine to do it,
| I can ignore or turn off the machine and that defeats the
| purpose.
|
| But heck, I'm not gonna spend money on that. So here I am.
| valty wrote:
| This actually worked surprisingly well for me. I hadn't gone to
| the gym in months and it was always a question of: why is this
| day going to be the day I start?
|
| I used this personalized chat-based service, where I said I
| will pay 1000$ if I don't go tomorrow. Like magic, there was no
| way I wouldn't go.
|
| I also used it for shipping a small side-project in 1 week. I
| procrastinated for 3 days, and then felt this real panic-
| inducing pressure 2 days before the deadline which forced an
| incredible moment of focus (like cramming before an exam).
|
| This approach is great when you need ignition from a cold-start
| to provide that initial momentum which is so important.
| irjustin wrote:
| That works a few times until you burn out. Wouldn't call
| someone yelling at me a sustainable solution.
| im_down_w_otp wrote:
| If that's actually a potential solution, then what about going
| an extra step and paying the person to just do the thing
| itself?
| PakG1 wrote:
| Required knowledge and skills. Required knowledge and skills
| to get on my case are much easier to find than required
| knowledge and skills to do the thing I need to do.
| chopete3 wrote:
| If you are lucky your spouse is that right person. 24x7x365 of
| being on the case. It worked for me. The challenge is, I told
| avoid telling her things that I want to avoid. :)
| dtgriscom wrote:
| Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!
|
| This sounds like a recipe for resentment on both sides of the
| relationship.
| black_13 wrote:
| [dead]
| rambojohnson wrote:
| why was this article difficult to read? it's cadence/structure is
| all over the place...
| athenot wrote:
| Many of the comments here are about procrastination (and are all
| very good contributions to the topic).
|
| However the article is more about expanding our thinking and
| challenging limitations that are self-imposed, which then prevent
| us from taking certain actions that can be highly significant (if
| not downright pivotal) for the goals we're pursuing in life.
|
| Personally, one of my favorite phrases is "what if?", in a
| dreamy, anticipatory mindest of wondering what might be possible.
| Sometimes this allows me to see that an "evident" limitation can
| indeed be overcome.
| bjarneh wrote:
| > he (Jimmy Fallon) is exactly like you'd expect -- warm,
| genuine, thoughtful
|
| Hmm, not really what I expected to be honest.
| RaiausderDose wrote:
| mr fake laugh is genuine. ok, maybe he's different irl.
| cuttysnark wrote:
| It's his brand, though--of _course_ he 'd be that way for an
| interviewer.
|
| Which leads to the next slightly annoying bit--author was
| reluctant to follow up because _Jimmy Fallon is a celebrity_ ,
| which isn't said explicitly but is essentially the crux of the
| whole article.
|
| Apart from that, "Hey, ya never know" is not terrible advice,
| but it's also a lottery slogan.
| SSchick wrote:
| Been avoiding to read this post all day :)
|
| (No seriously I avoided it so I can avoid doing the things I've
| been avoiding)
| JaneLovesDotNet wrote:
| I have found LLMs quite useful in fighting procrastination.
|
| For myself, procrastination is usually caused by the fear of how
| painful it is to get up and running on a new project or task.
|
| Asking an LLM to start the work gets the annoying bits out of the
| way.
|
| Even if it does most of it incorrectly, at least you've built
| momentum, and then you can take over from there.
| toddmatthews wrote:
| How does an LLM help you do the dishes?
| Gareth321 wrote:
| "LLM start deleting my files at random until I confirm the
| dishes are done."
| AQuantized wrote:
| I managed to progress a long standing side project because of
| this psychology. Asking ChatGPT how to do what I think is the
| next step is easy, and it generally spits out a coherent if
| questionable solution. Finding the issues with its
| implementation gets me into the mindset to continue working on
| the problem.
| ChildOfChaos wrote:
| I feel like this article has completely the wrong headline.
|
| This is not about doing what you are avoiding, it's about
| considering the thing you think is stupid, is actually something
| you should do.
|
| Avoiding the thing is more about, knowing you should do
| something, but still not doing it anyway.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| This article is not about procrastination, it is not about
| challenging your preconception of what is a bad idea.
|
| For example, you need to do the dishes, and you don't. This is
| procrastination, you know it is a good idea to do the dishes,
| that it has to be done eventually, etc...
|
| But the article is more about say, finally using that dishwasher
| despite having some preconceived idea that it is bad at its job.
| fhennig wrote:
| When I get to a point where I'm second guessing like the author
| ("Should I follow-up or not?") I try to go with actually
| listening to what the other person said. In this case, Jimmy said
| "please follow-up if you have questions" and I'd just assume that
| that was genuine and so it's fine.
|
| And if I called he could still be like "Yeah, we went over time
| last time, actually I'm sorry I don't have time anymore."
|
| And so I also try to communicate in this way, just saying things
| I mean and if I don't want something, I'll also say that. Makes
| everything much easier. (I'm German, maybe it's also a cultural
| thing.)
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Definitely a cultural thing, but also has to do with
| neurodiversity; for some reason, a lot of people speak in
| riddles, they don't say what they mean and/or they don't mean
| what they say, and you're left having to make assumptions
| because if you don't get it, that's somehow your fault?
|
| Another factor there is (corporate) politeness and avoiding
| emotional responses; the amounts of times I've had colleagues
| go on an angry rant / vent to us (as teammates) over a meeting
| they just came out of, instead of direct and use that anger
| during the meeting itself is a lot.
| Ilnsk wrote:
| xkcd.com/642
| ultra_nick wrote:
| Finishing homework before a deadline is a great idea, everyone
| agrees, and it'll cause career issues if your grades slip too
| much. However, most people still struggle to motivate themselves
| to do it. Useless.
|
| A better tip is to at least review or read boring work everyday
| until it's done. Tasks are easier to start if you planned them
| the day before and don't need to think to start.
| NKosmatos wrote:
| "It's better to regret things you've done, than to regret things
| you haven't"
| coldtea wrote:
| If only.
|
| We regret things we did (some marriage that didn't work out and
| destroyed our lives, some business decision that was bad,
| drinking and partying when we should have been getting ahead
| instead now we're at an AA meeting, spending sprees that left
| us broke, getting that tribal tattoo in our forehead while
| drunk, and so on) all the time...
| byproxy wrote:
| As someone who's felt both, I can say that this is absolutely
| not true. The things I've done and regretted have had real,
| lasting effects and the things I've regretted not doing are
| only hypothetical.
| langsoul-com wrote:
| The article title is pretty false. I didn't walk away
| understanding how to do the thing you've been avoiding at all.
|
| More like, you never know if (bad) things you've been avoiding
| are actually bad. In fact, people might want you to do said
| thing.
|
| Ie someone who does favours for others should ask back in return,
| to satisfy the reciprocal nature of most people.
| xigency wrote:
| Yours is the only comment I see that recognized this. I may
| have a false consensus, but I feel like everyone either skimmed
| the article or only read the title. The title reads as if it is
| about procrastination and completing tasks, but instead TFA
| discusses exploring activities you would hesitate to do, and
| asking those around you for insight if it's a good idea.
| xyzelement wrote:
| Been working on this a lot.
|
| For most of my life I thought - I am great on a crisis / hard
| problems, and performing well under pressure, bad at consistently
| doing small things without anyone looking.
|
| Like all such self identification, it's a bullshit excuse.
|
| Then I thought that I am just adrenaline driven. What excites me
| gets crushed. What just needs to get done sometime, doesn't.
|
| (I am "high functioning" - manager in FAANG, multiple graduate
| degrees, father of 2)
|
| Lately a coach helped me realize. What I don't have is a
| deliberate practice of giving myself time to sort out the urgent
| from important. Literally reserving uninterrupted time on the
| calendar to prioritize and think about what to do (vs, do)
|
| The outcome is this allows me to get excited about things I would
| have previously been dreading.
|
| Eg - "man, I gotta call X contractor to get a quote" is a drag.
| Giving myself a chance to reframe it like "I am really excited
| about upgrading our backyard so the kids can play there better.
| Calling X is the first step to that, can't wait to do it"
|
| It changes it from annoying task to a part of an exciting
| project. Because if I wasn't excited about the project then the
| phone call isn't necessary anyway.
|
| Becoming more religious and developing gratitude has helped.
|
| Waking up every morning and recognizing that my children, wife,
| home, career are all an incredible gift. And all that work around
| them is a blessing too - to become a better person etc. Really
| changes your perspective. I am working on it!
| 93po wrote:
| Forcing myself to have time away from devices in general every
| single day and not do anything is very, very productive. I can
| use this time to think about whatever I want, and it often
| helps motivate me to get off my ass and be productive after I
| get tired of sitting there and feeling bored.
| boredumb wrote:
| As someone who is also manager as well, this last year i've
| allocated myself 30 minutes a week for myself to go through
| jira and notes from meetings throughout the week and really
| prioritize and scrutinize what's in motion and what's in the
| near term hopper and it has saved me countless hours of
| scrambling and rushing around to clarify things now that I have
| them clarified in my head every week.
|
| I mention this because as someone who loves writing code and
| building solutions who migrated into management roles, this was
| the thing I would actively procrastinate doing in lieu of "fun"
| stuff like writing code and collaborating with the team on
| various problems. This may be more directed to developers who
| move into management, but the advice itself is good for
| everyone - dedicate time to organize, prioritize and really
| clarify to yourself what is going on - weekly/monthly/whatever
| your schedules look like.
| Balgair wrote:
| The Eisenhower Decision Matrix has always helped me out with
| these kids of things:
|
| https://jamesclear.com/eisenhower-box
| reagan83 wrote:
| +1 to your approach of gratitude and reframing potential
| dreaded tasks to the positive outcome they help achieve! Love
| this.
| nkotov wrote:
| I really loved the last part.
| [deleted]
| iopq wrote:
| I've been avoiding it because I'm lazy, not because I think it's
| a bad idea
| jahewson wrote:
| _Lazy_ is a judgement not an actual state of being.
| notRobot wrote:
| Care to explain?
| 331c8c71 wrote:
| Not doing something is actually neutral because it can
| happen for healthy reasons as well as not so healthy ones.
| Labelling someone as "lazy" implies that not doing stuff is
| wrong and is a moral failure of sorts.
| anthonypasq wrote:
| no one is lazy for not doing things that are unhealthy
| bheadmaster wrote:
| In my understanding, "lazy" literally means "one who does
| not do what he ought to". It is completely descriptive,
| provides absolutely no new information beyond the obvious,
| and is only used to assign a value judgement to someone.
|
| And yet people use it in circular arguments all the time:
| _he is not doing homework because he 's lazy_. If we expand
| "lazy" to "does not do what he ought to", we get: _he is
| not doing homework because he does not do what he ought
| to_. So sky is blue because all skies are blue... Not
| really useful for anything except guilt tripping a person,
| because laziness is bad.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _In my understanding, "lazy" literally means "one who
| does not do what he ought to"._
|
| Not exactly, it means "one habitually does not do what
| they ought to, because they'd rather relax, avoid hard
| work, have fun, and so on, and they're not hard-working
| or even just-enough working to not fall behind".
| bheadmaster wrote:
| That's even worse - it's a value judgement based on
| (unverifiable) assumption of person's motives.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| I think there's more to it than that. "Lazy" implies that
| you don't have a reason for not doing what you ought to
| do. For example, I might not do something for a myriad of
| reasons:
|
| - I might have more important things to do
|
| - I might be ill
|
| - I might be missing some prerequisite
|
| - I might be resting because I need my energy for
| something else
|
| - Someone told me not to do the thing I ought to do
|
| In all of these cases, I'm not doing what I ought to do,
| but I'm not lazy. Lazy implies that there is nothing
| preventing me from doing what I ought to do.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| If that's the case, lazy is something that never ever
| happened. There is always a reason. Here are a few more
| of them:
|
| - I don't want to do it, but I'm afraid to tell you this;
|
| - It seems the task requires a degree of sustained focus
| that is beyond my capacity;
|
| - What? I'm hyperthyroid;
|
| - I'm busy being afraid of something that could happen to
| me soon, over which I have no control, or the only
| control I have is to turn a probable bad thing into 100%
| sure bad thing; because of that, I am fully on auto-pilot
| and unable to process anything that requires expending
| effort to stay focused;
|
| - What? What task? Oh sorry, I was busy trying to calm
| myself down from an anxiety attack and completely forgot.
| But now you reminding me is shooting my anxiety back, so
| kindly please GTFO; I may or may not do the thing,
| depending on how long it'll take me to calm myself down
| again.
|
| Etc.
|
| "Lazy" is a pure judgement. It doesn't care about reasons
| - it's a statement that "this person cannot be relied
| on". Which would be fair if used only to manage
| expectations, but it's actually used as a blunt weapon -
| a crude attempt to _make_ someone reliable by guilt-
| tripping and peer pressure.
|
| EDIT: a few more reasons:
|
| - Whenever I attempt this task, my mind blanks out. Don't
| know why. But it's so bad that I can't even break things
| down into smaller steps.
|
| - Two or three times, I poured all my heart and effort
| into doing this, and not only you weren't satisfied with
| the results, you actually ridiculed me for them and
| accused of not caring, while at no point explaining what
| your definition of "good result" is. So guess what, this
| thing got crossed off the list of possible things I could
| be doing, at a subconscious level. I'm unable to
| recognize this is a task to be done, unless you request
| it directly. Which I hope you won't. Fuck you.
|
| - _(4 year old version of the above)_ I tried my best,
| you didn 't even notice, told me I did nothing, and even
| screamed at me. I'm now experiencing a panic attack when
| you ask me to do it, which blanks my mind out and freezes
| me in place. You calling me lazy and screaming more and
| throwing away my toys doesn't help. Good job at parenting
| you're doing there.
|
| - _(with apologies to 'coldtea)_ The reason you see me
| constantly "relaxing" and "having fun" is because I'm
| constantly 5 minutes away from curling up on the floor
| and crying. There is no "fun vs. work", there is only
| "fun vs. pain".
|
| All of the reasons I listed are things I've either
| experienced or dealt with people who were experiencing
| them.
| iopq wrote:
| When I say I'm lazy, I mean I don't want to do it
|
| Nobody accused me of being too lazy to play games
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| That's what you say when you refer to yourself. The
| problem is with how that term is used by people to
| describe _others_.
|
| And personally, I've had plenty of days when, if I didn't
| know better (or if I was an external observer of myself),
| I'd definitely say I'm too lazy to play videogames. Most
| commonly, this happened when, after being overwhelmed
| with work and responsibilities for a while, I suddenly
| found myself having one or more free days, like really
| free, completely for myself. Suddenly, all the things I
| wanted to do instead of working - including videogames
| I've been dying to play - didn't seem all that
| interesting anymore.
|
| My Steam collection is full of games - good, interesting
| games - that I bought and then barely even played,
| because it turned out they only seemed fun when I was
| trying to force myself to focus on work, and lost all
| allure when I didn't have to.
| nelox wrote:
| I highly recommend these excellent self-directed workshops to
| help with procrastination:
| https://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/Resources/Looking-After-You...
| alden5 wrote:
| Woah those look really useful! _bookmarks the link thinking
| "ill do that later"_
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I'll fix my procrastination issues... after a nap.
| gen_greyface wrote:
| Thanks for sharing this. I'm going to try out the perfectionism
| workbooks. Also nice that the pdfs have forms to fill stuff in.
| ninesnines wrote:
| I used to get quite a lot of anxiety with replying to emails,
| which was absolute nonsense. I would procrastinate and then it
| would become this huge monster I needed to deal with because on
| top of the email now I had to apologize for my tardiness. This
| problem extrapolated to many parts of my life, and I had to fix
| it. Now, I always try to read emails, especially ones I am scared
| of, quickly. As you do it you will have less of a negative
| connotation with the whole thing. You can even give yourself a
| snack after or something, but getting started is key.
| jfeif wrote:
| Hey all! I'm the author of this newsletter -- thanks to whoever
| posted it! Really appreciate all the thoughtful commentary.
| kylegalbraith wrote:
| This was a very insightful read that I think helps people think
| about stepping outside of their comfort zones.
| looperhacks wrote:
| This article feels equivalent to "Feeling sad? Just feel happy
| instead!"
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Kind of, but it came across to me as more of a challenge;
| "feeling sad? Have you unpacked why you feel sad or are you
| just wallowing in it?"
|
| Is your inaction a rational decision?
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| If my inaction was a rational decision, would I be reading an
| article with a title "How to Do the Thing You've Been
| Avoiding"?
|
| (And no, I haven't unpacked why I feel sad; I tried it a
| couple times, which is how I discovered my sadness is stored
| in a bag of holding[0]; in fact, I suspect the bag actually
| contains within it a portal to hammerspace[1], explaining why
| it's always full, no matter how much stuff I pull out of it.)
|
| --
|
| [0] - https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/4581-bag-of-
| holding
|
| [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerspace
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| Advice-wise, it's like "Getting fat? Consider looking over
| what you eat and adding more activity to your days!"
|
| It's actually kind of good advice, but it's hard advice, it's
| hard to actually follow through.
|
| If you go see a therapist, it's often the type of stuff they
| have you do (challenging thought patterns, asking the hard
| 'why's). And it actually works pretty well, you can do it
| yourself too, but that's even harder.
|
| Speaking as someone who has both successfully lost weight and
| gone to therapy, btw.
| abdussamit wrote:
| Aren't most articles screaming this anyway?
| npunt wrote:
| The article is more about motivating through excitement than
| motivating through insight (I call this 'puppy motivation' vs
| 'insight motivation').
|
| I sometimes have the same reaction to things - I remember once
| being baffled at the lack of insight in a writing course I was
| taking, only to begrudgingly admit it was motivating me anyway
| even tho it was pretty stupid... like a puppy wanting to play.
|
| At least for me I think the root of that comes from a closed
| mode vs open mode way of thinking [1]. When in closed mode
| we'll only accept new _information_ whereas in open mode we can
| be playful and accepting new _motivation_. Different content
| demands different states of mind.
|
| [1] John Cleese's video on creativity is worth a watch
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5oIIPO62g
| ly3xqhl8g9 wrote:
| "Just feel happy instead" does seem to work in certain contexts
| and frameworks [1]. For instance, if you become decoupled from
| the current agent, that is, you start paying attention that
| whatever you call you is _just_ an observer of an
| implementation of an agent and the feeling of anger, hate,
| envy, and so on is the care of that particular agent, not an
| absolute, then you can _just_ switch agents, having whatever
| feelings the previous agent cared about seem as insignificant
| as it can get.
|
| In practice, being able to sustain the kind of attention
| required to catch hold of the underlying agent is strenuous,
| drugs [2] could maybe help, make it easier to attain the
| observer state, but its early beginnings.
|
| [1] 2021, Jeff Hawkins, _A Thousand Brains: A New Theory of
| Intelligence_
|
| [2] 2019, Ketamine as treatment for post-traumatic stress
| disorder: a review,
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6457782/
| Ecoste wrote:
| These types of articles act as a kick-starter to reflecting about
| your own thought-patterns and antagonisms. I'm sure you've read
| articles or watched videos precisely about procrastination etc.
| just like this article -- and it did nothing to help you with
| your own procrastination (and the other millions of people that
| are procrastinating). Every such article has a goal of "be
| happier" "be less anxious" "stop procrastinating" etc. but what
| they're essentially saying is "be happy", or "don't
| procrastinate" etc. After stating the overall trite, they go into
| personal details about what worked for them to address the trite.
| However the details are usually highly personal and won't work
| for you or anyone really who doesn't have the same belief
| (system/thought pattern/mentality/personality) as the author. In
| fact the author mentioned this himself in the article by pointing
| out that not everyone thinks the same as you (So then: why are
| you telling us about the implementation details of the solution
| to the trite instead of really drilling into what thinking led
| for the implementation to be effective?) At which point do you
| stop drilling into your meta-thinking? It's hard to know, and
| it's hard to drill-down as well and as you drill-down things
| become more personal and not applicable to a general audience.
| podiki wrote:
| What if the thing I'm avoiding is reading this article about how
| to do the things I'm avoiding?
| chwa982 wrote:
| [dead]
| edrxty wrote:
| You're not missing anything, I forced myself to read it knowing
| that if I put it off I never would. It's just a small amount of
| rambling about how to write comedy routines. There's really
| nothing relevant to the HN community in here even if you squint
| really hard.
|
| Aside: maybe people should stop upvoting things hoping someone
| will summarize the content in the comments?
| safety1st wrote:
| Given the number of people who comment/vote on articles
| without reading them (everywhere, not just on HN), this seems
| like a great use case for LLMs. Probably if there was a short
| summary of every article directly under the title, discussion
| quality would improve.
| edrxty wrote:
| Chatgpt coming in with the hot takes:
|
| The article explores the concept of reevaluating ideas we
| consider bad and highlights the importance of questioning
| our assumptions. The author shares a personal experience of
| interviewing Jimmy Fallon and initially hesitating to
| request a follow-up call for additional information.
| However, when the author finally reached out, Fallon
| expressed appreciation and saw it as a sign of thoroughness
| rather than a burden. This interaction made the author
| question other ideas they had deemed bad. The article
| suggests asking simple questions to challenge our
| assumptions: Why do I think it's a bad idea? How do I
| actually know it's a bad idea? Am I the only one who thinks
| this? What's the worst that can happen if I'm wrong? The
| author encourages seeking social information and
| considering others' experiences before making a decision.
| They also share a personal realization about asking for
| favors, discovering that it can strengthen relationships
| instead of burdening others. The article concludes by
| encouraging readers to take risks, embrace possibilities,
| and engage with the world to gain experiences and
| potentially benefit others. The author also refers to a
| previous newsletter about focusing on one's strengths
| rather than trying to do everything.
| drekipus wrote:
| Can I get a summary on this please? This is way too long
| and isn't broken up at all.
| wruza wrote:
| TFA talks about untested fears, not lazy/tired
| procrastination. Advises to test them, because you may
| see it the wrong way and it's okay or good.
| edrxty wrote:
| Further reduced...
|
| The article encourages questioning ideas deemed bad,
| sharing a story about Jimmy Fallon appreciating
| thoroughness. It suggests asking simple questions,
| seeking social information, and taking risks to gain
| experiences. It concludes with a reference to a previous
| newsletter on focusing on strengths.
| raincole wrote:
| > Probably if there was a short summary of every article
| directly under the title, discussion quality would improve.
|
| It has been a thing way before ChatGPT on some subreddits
| (e.g. r/worldnews). I'm not sure how it works, perhaps
| GPT-3?
| rz2k wrote:
| I didn't want to read the article, so I finally did that
| other thing I didn't want to do.
|
| I think that's the secret to doing the thing I'm avoiding;
| think of something you dread more. Ideally that sacrificial
| chore is unimportant, or eventually something that can be
| delegated away or something someone else can be hired to do.
| fhennig wrote:
| > It's just a small amount of rambling about how to write
| comedy routines.
|
| Uh .. what? It isn't about this, and your dismissive tone is
| uncalled for.
| coldtea wrote:
| Uncalled for? They're right, it's a rambling piece, written
| as a listicle in an attempt to be some kind of self-help
| blogger (and promote their book).
| podiki wrote:
| Whenever I see anything about procrastination I always go back to
| the classic: https://structuredprocrastination.com/
| Ecoste wrote:
| This article is basically weaponizing surplus-enjoyment towards
| getting things done. Pretty cool :)
| jimmaswell wrote:
| I did the things I was avoiding by finally getting an adhd
| diagnosis and stimulant medication. Life changing so far, so much
| easier to do what I want in personal and work life.
| Tade0 wrote:
| Psychiatrists explain this as an evolutionary mechanism keeping
| us from expending energy on tasks which, in our caveman mind's
| view, have low probability of success.
|
| Most modern activities are beyond the mind's capabilities in
| terms of assessing whether it's worth it, so it usually defaults
| to "no".
|
| One way around it is to imagine the feeling of having this off
| your back. I found that it helps somewhat.
| Prcmaker wrote:
| We say it more morning than not at work: Eat the green frog.
| dtgriscom wrote:
| Having trouble parsing this... explain?
| Prcmaker wrote:
| If you get to work one day, and there's a frog on your desk,
| and a job assigned to you to eat the frog, you're going to
| have to get it done. You can let it sit there and sit there
| there, but sooner or later you're going to have to eat the
| frog. Might as well get that job done with and move one to
| the next, more enjoyable, thing.
|
| We don't eat frogs at work, but we do get many a job you'd
| rather put off to later.
| saagarjha wrote:
| Step one, log off from this site?
| ulnarkressty wrote:
| Most of the time it's anxiety. You'd be surprised how easy it is
| to start doing something when you don't feel any kind of
| pressure. Getting rid of it is hard work though, sometimes even
| harder than doing the thing you're procrastinating about. This
| gives rise to some interesting cost/benefit discussions. Which
| only serve to increase the anxiety. Enjoy modern life!
| themodelplumber wrote:
| Some anxiety helps people do things, too. This is where you get
| people who need deadlines, scheduled milestones, check-ins, or
| other rituals or anticipated events just so they can get it
| done. (No shame)
|
| IMO the word "anxiety" is now of limited utility as far as
| human species development goes. Same with "procrastination."
| People are often caught short by not having appropriately-honed
| replacements for those words that can help them move to higher
| heights, while building on what we've all learned about those
| concepts in the past.
| noduerme wrote:
| I'm pretty sure my respect for people who sit down at a blank
| page, or pick up the phone and make a difficult call (or even
| a call to the guy who was supposed to trim the trees last
| week) stems from my deep reluctance to do the same. Whether
| you could blame my reluctance on anxiety, apathy, superiority
| or sheer laziness really depends on the day... but I really
| do respect those people who slog through their list of to-do
| items as if it were a job. And they are better at life than I
| am.
|
| Put me in front or a concrete problem, and I'm a fucking
| monster at solving it. Give me someone's phone number to call
| and I'd rather spend the rest of the week in a bathtub.
| comboy wrote:
| > And they are better at life than I am
|
| In my worldview, when you state that, you don't really
| believe that. If you did, you would do these things that
| you think make them better with no effort. If you drop
| wishful thinking, look at the situation, then it's clear
| that if you think they are better at life, then the actions
| they do are better. But if you really believed that you
| would choose to do them, effortlessly.
|
| Now I know there's plenty of frameworks you can look at
| things through and plenty of rationalizations, I'm just
| presenting another one.
|
| So whenever you think it would be better if you would be
| doing something right now which you are not doing, you have
| some cognitive dissonance. It's possible to debug it.
| Sometimes it can go pretty deep, but if you are honest with
| yourself then after you do the debugging, you should either
| arrive at the conclusion that it is not better after all,
| or be doing it.
|
| We are able to hold tons of contradictory beliefs, but only
| if we don't bring them together to our attention. Then it's
| just impossible. Cheapest way to resolve these, which often
| appears automatically, is quick rationalization - creating
| a special case, "yes, but", "this is different" etc. But
| when you are honest with yourself and observe yourself, do
| some debugging, it's impossible to not be doing something
| you want to be doing (and vice versa).
|
| For me, it often means not that now I want to do these
| tasks and I'm going at them, rather, I understand that e.g.
| I think there are more important things in life to me given
| the wider context and I'm perfectly fine not doing them.
|
| I have not been doing anything I wouldn't want to be doing
| right now for years. I sometimes needed to question my very
| basic values and choices to debug it.
|
| Remember that it requires dropping wishful thinking.
| Wanting sky to be green is just madness, only after you
| accept that reality is how it is you can find out what you
| want.
|
| Anxiety can be debugged away.
|
| (Yes, I know - brains, neurotransmitters, amygdala, this is
| just a random dude's framework, a tool)
| noduerme wrote:
| I don't do things I don't want to do - I've also set my
| life and career up to prioritize that. Being overly
| accustomed to that mode may be part of the problem,
| because inevitably there are things you have to do that
| you don't want to do - and those things seem harder, even
| if they're trivial, when you really want to master your
| own time. Yet I'm pretty good at getting those out of the
| way.
|
| That's not my specific problem with phone calls. Phone
| calls always open up a Pandora's box of more problems.
| Perhaps if you feel like armchair diagnosing this: I
| clean my house almost obsessively every day; my desktop
| has only two text files on it called "Immediate" and
| "Todo"; my inbox is always cleaned out by 5 or 6pm before
| I let myself relax. Then I go get fucking wasted and make
| new friends and end up drinking in parking lots.
|
| But I can't call the fucking tree guy or the mechanic or
| the accountant. It's not the conversation I'm worried
| about. It's that I know there will be one new thing on
| the list.
|
| When the list is cleared, I will be free. I will take my
| clothes off and walk naked to the airport.
|
| [edit] I just want to clarify: I do think that I'm good
| at life in my own peculiar way. Just not "good at life"
| as most people would define it ;)
| comboy wrote:
| Seems like you want to avoid calls if possible. If not
| then to me it helps to think in packages. So there is no
| "I need to make a phonecall". There's option A - "I make
| a phonecall and the then I have this" or "I don't make a
| phonecall and there are those consequences". What's the
| key to me here is that both options are perfectly fine.
| I.e. "suffering + some reward" or "no suffering and no
| reward". Or sometimes both options require some
| suffering. That is not a problem though, that is life.
|
| But suffering is really something different without
| anxiety. If it's unavoidable anyway there's a peace about
| it.
|
| And I'm sorry if I come off as an armchair diagnostician,
| I have no clue about your life obviously, it's just that
| this kind of thinking made such a big difference to me
| that it feels bad not sharing it.
| noduerme wrote:
| no, I think it's quite interesting to diagnose this from
| a code point of view... this is why it really sucks that
| I have literally no one in my life who writes code or
| understands my job (or can chop things up into logical
| if/else statements like this ;) I probably should look at
| my own messy internal call stack from this pov a bit more
| often.
|
| My best friend as a kid was raised in Zen Buddhism and we
| learned to code together. This is the kind of way he
| would look at it. So I appreciate it.
| tjoff wrote:
| > _If you did, you would do these things that you think
| make them better with no effort._
|
| There is a whole lot of assumptions in that sentence. To
| start, why would doing the right thing be effortless?
|
| Add to that, if you are in a bad state you are likely to
| be pessimistic of the outcome of the task which makes it
| even harder. And fighting that is anything but
| effortless.
|
| You could argue that when you are in a perfect state
| stars will align but even if you truly believe that the
| effort to get to that place will often be nothing but
| heroic and most people will never achieve it.
|
| So it just feels like moving the goalpost? Which is fine
| if framing it like that gets you closer to where you want
| to be. But I'd need more convincing to believe that would
| be easier (for me).
| noduerme wrote:
| the underlying assumption is that there is no tension
| between satisfying the world and satisfying your own need
| for tranquility.
|
| [edit] I haven't done a lot of therapy, but I sought out
| an existential therapist in Buenos Aires and saw her
| weekly for a year while I was there and severely
| depressed. It helped me get over seeing myself as the
| center of the narrative, and made me realize everyone
| else was too trapped in theirs to notice most of the
| flaws I saw in myself. It also helped me come to terms
| with how the world being fucked up is neither my fault or
| something I can fix. But the real, true house on the
| cliff is unattainable. In the darkest and most honest
| moments, I'd admit it's not even what I want. As my ex's
| mother once said, I thrive on crisis. She didn't mean it
| well.
| comboy wrote:
| > To start, why would doing the right thing be
| effortless?
|
| Because doing things you want to do does not require
| effort.
|
| Real life example from the past - sewage system problem -
| I have shit all over the floor in my basement. It's late
| night next days are some celebrations. I can have this
| shit all over my floor it can wait for somebody to clean
| it, or it can just stay there, or I can clean it. You
| would think cleaning up shit is just that, it sucks
| regardless. But my experience is different. If you keep
| repeating to yourself false narration "I don't want to be
| doing this" that's hell. But after accepting the
| situation, deciding which option do you want, doing what
| you want to do is really effortless. Out of all the
| things this is what I want to be doing right now. If not,
| I'm not doing it.
|
| Narration matters a lot and it seems pretty
| straightforward that when you think you don't want to be
| doing the thing that YOU decided and are doing right now,
| you have some cognitive dissonance.
|
| (remember - no wishful thinking - thinking I want to have
| it clean but without doing any actions is no different
| than taunting yourself that you have no wings)
|
| > no tension between satisfying the world and satisfying
| your own need
|
| There isn't any. It's enough to try to satisfy your needs
| and doing what you want. But be observant and introspect.
|
| People who are perceived as egoists are not optimizing
| for their own well being. You can't be happy when you are
| surrounded by people who are not happy.
|
| When you want to support some charity and do something
| for the world, where does it come from? It's you, it's
| your need. It feels good. Not just a fleeting high, but
| like a feeling about your life in general. We seem to
| have that built in.
|
| I mean regardless of the source, just look how it's
| unnecessarily nested narration. Your needs vs needs of
| others, where needs of others is what you feel is needed
| to do for others. It's still your needs, if you think you
| should be helping others it's you who feels that.
| NotSuspicious wrote:
| I am a bit envious of your apparent lack of akrasia. I
| read a similar argument to yours by Abraham Maslow
| ("Motivation and Personality" I believe?) and have the
| same reaction then as I do now. The inner worlds of
| different human beings can be radically different.
| Sometimes we forget that and assume our experiences or
| ways of experiencing are universal. Some people have
| aphantasia, others (more lucky perhaps) don't have
| akrasia or at the very least can sufficiently overcome it
| by bringing to mind whether or not one wants to do the
| task at-hand. Not all of us are so blessed, although all
| of us could probably benefit from weighing the costs and
| benefits of doing tasks that we believe need to be done
| but still have resistance to doing.
| comboy wrote:
| Akrasia is like anxiety. It's not that I don't have it.
| It's just that I would debug quickly (and after some time
| it happens somewhat automatically). So 80% of time I
| indeed won't do the task that's been waiting for long.
| But I'm not anxious about it. I just realize that this
| isn't what I want to do right now.
|
| When you look at akrasia, the problem is not that you are
| not doing something. It's this painful cognitive
| dissonance. Unresolved conflict in your narration. Both
| doing the thing is fine and not doing it is fine. But
| suffering by doing it while telling your self you don't
| want to do it or not doing it while telling yourself that
| you do is completely avoidable.
|
| And yeah, I agree about different experiences. Which
| makes communication funny - same words but two very
| different contexts and interpreters. Which is why I'm so
| verbose about the thing I was describing.
| tjoff wrote:
| I don't think we have the same definition of effort.
|
| All options regarding sewage in your basement takes a lot
| of effort. Identifying and doing the least sucky option
| doesn't make it not suck.
|
| I agree that it is helpful to frame it in a way that you
| _choose_ to do it because its the best way forward. But
| that has absolutely nothing to do with effort and trying
| to recalibrate is as effortless does nothing but dilute
| and dismiss the effort you are putting into it.
|
| Lots of things take effort, some things like workouts can
| (as with most things, in moderation) be more meaningful
| the more effort is provided.
|
| > _Narration matters a lot and it seems pretty
| straightforward that when you think you don 't want to be
| doing the thing that YOU decided and are doing right now,
| you have some cognitive dissonance._
|
| It is just a matter of perspective. You choose to do it
| because you want it done. It is an axiom. Not liking the
| situation does not equal cognitive dissonance.
|
| If it helps you to not obsess about something, great. But
| that is a whole other topic.
| escapedmoose wrote:
| How do you handle long-term tasks that are painful to do?
| Things that you don't want to do in the moment, but which
| have a payoff you want?
| comboy wrote:
| For some reason you want to do them. It's not like some
| dummy algorithm to decide what you do right now. What you
| want is a very complex computation which is basically
| already done and takes into account everything you know.
| There's no reason to try to outsmart yourself. If you are
| excited about the future associated with some task (or
| about the future in general) you are excited about doing
| the task. Some grim outlook on the future makes it
| rational to optimize short term results. E.g. sleep
| deprivation gives a glimpse of that.
|
| Basically seems pointless to fight with yourself. Maybe
| you don't really want the long-term task + result
| package. Or maybe wishful thinking is causing you to
| fantasize about getting a result without doing the task.
| (I'm sorry about using second person, seems most
| straightforward way to communicate it).
|
| I guess there's also some element of narration creating
| fictional character - e.g. I can't stop playing chess -
| playing chess is who I am. Which basically is daydreaming
| again.
|
| And btw it all sound pretty analytical but in practice is
| mostly value driven. But if necessary, I will debug the
| stack deeply. Honesty is required. It goes deep and into
| intimate places. I would leave my wife and kids if I
| wouldn't want to be with them (and I think that's best
| for everybody). Given that I do and want them to be happy
| a lot of stuff follows effortlessly. I think many people
| are afraid to question these deep assumptions. But it's
| worth doing it. Otherwise it's castles on sand.
|
| Back when I was starting with debugging I once deeply
| considered our marriage since I needed to take some trash
| out :))
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| I think what you do on a daily basis has a huge impact to
| how you deal with this. When I was mostly focused on a
| single issue at a time for long strench of time, I used to
| be reluctant to call people and didn't really plan things
| for my personnal life. As my job shifted towards more
| organisational responsibilities and I had to start both
| carefully planning how I use my own time and spending a lot
| more time contacting people to get things done, these
| things started slowly expanding to the rest of my time by
| cheer force of habit. What is one more call to the guy who
| should have trimmed the tree when you have spent the day
| asking people why they are behind schedule?
|
| I think it goes well with the anxiety explanation. You are
| obviously less anxious about things which are just business
| as usual. I guess my take away would be that if you want to
| start doing something you find hard, it will get easier and
| easier as you stick with it, which is pretty nice when you
| think about it.
| noduerme wrote:
| yeah, I've sort of observed this... my gf is in a people-
| centric / customer service job, and thinks nothing of
| picking up the phone and making life-related calls in an
| instant that I would probably procrastinate for days
| before making.
|
| I've thought maybe it was her job that led her to it. But
| I've also wondered if it was something in my blood. See,
| my father was a lawyer. As a kid I'd sit in his office
| and listen to him make tough phone calls one after
| another all day. But when it came time to talk to anyone
| at all at home, he always made my mother do it. I've
| found myself doing this with my girlfriend if we want to
| order food or something. Because I'll simply drink all
| night and delay the phone call.
|
| So when it comes to any work flag that arises, I'll call
| my clients obsessively until they pay attention to the
| problem. But if I need someone to do something for me, I
| basically almost can't make the call.
| escapedmoose wrote:
| I used to be in your position. What broke the cycle for
| me was that my SO realized how anxious I would get every
| time I had to make a phone call, so he assigned all
| phone-related household tasks to me until I lost the
| phobia via exposure/practice. It sucked until it didn't
| anymore. I'm now one of those people who prefers to make
| a call rather than use a web form!
| dandellion wrote:
| I don't like making calls, going to appointments, job
| interviews and things like that. But in terms of the
| effort it takes me to do it, I noticed the first is
| usually the hardest one. So now I just procrastinate on
| purpose any calls or appointments I need to make that I
| can defer with little negative consequences. Eventually
| something shows up that I know I shouldn't delay, like an
| appointment with the doctor, or the dentist, or something
| like that. I force myself to do it and take it as an
| opportunity to do everything I had piled up, since I know
| once I make the first call it'll be easier to do the
| others. It can cause me to have a very frantic week when
| it happens but after I can relax again.
| wruza wrote:
| In therapy, anxiety is an emotion in the "fear" group, which
| is one of a few fundamental emotional directions. Once you
| learn to watch and name your emotions, it becomes pretty
| clear if you're anxious or not. So the term itself is correct
| and universal. But the cause of anxiety is in a big part
| person-specific and harder to expose. The other part is
| incorrect brain chemistry, chronic or acute.
|
| That said, we have names for some common fears, e.g. caller
| anxiety. But again, is it universal?
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I'm not sure if you'd call it anxiety then or just...
| restlessness, control urges, lack of self-discipline, etc; is
| it healthy to need others on your back to get things done?
|
| I mean I get it, I work better in an office setting vs on my
| own and I've got a lot of issue to unpack, but I can also
| rationalize it and see that it's not a healthy condition to
| be in.
| abnercoimbre wrote:
| _> Getting rid of it is hard work though_
|
| Getting rid of what, exactly? The pressure? (Currently
| procrastinating by the way, on very important things that I
| keep delaying for some unexplained reason.)
|
| Modern life indeed.
| NoPicklez wrote:
| Well that's entirely dependent on the task.
|
| For instance, if you have problems submitting your timesheets
| on time, it could be due to the fact that you're worried
| about putting too many hours on the budget. If you remove the
| worry about putting too many hours on the budget, then you
| might find yourself doing your timesheets on time.
|
| The answer to your question lies in the "unexplained reason"
| which can actually be explained, that's the hard part.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _The answer to your question lies in the "unexplained
| reason" which can actually be explained, that's the hard
| part._
|
| Having struggled with this for almost 20 years now, with
| little to show for it, I'd say "'unexplained reason' can
| actually be explained" seems to belong to the same category
| as "P != NP can actually be proven". Good luck and
| Godspeed.
|
| Maybe I'm more of a clinical case, but for me, whatever I
| think the source of anxiety is in any given scenario, it's
| never that. I can eliminate potential sources one by one,
| dig in recursively, but it only provides very short-lived
| feelings of relief, lasting seconds to minutes, before
| anxiety restarts. To make matters worse, the more I spend
| time on such investigations, the more anxious I get about
| not working on the actual thing I wanted/was supposed to.
|
| The most accurate model/explanation I have for this is:
| anxiety always comes, unconditionally; any "reason" behind
| it is just desperate post-hoc rationalization. The only
| reliable defense I know of is to be doing something so
| interesting or stimulating that it captures all of the
| brain's compute and starves the "anxiety process" entirely.
| Of course, that process will restart as soon as resources
| for it become available.
|
| > _For instance, if you have problems submitting your
| timesheets on time, it could be due to the fact that you
| 're worried about putting too many hours on the budget. If
| you remove the worry about putting too many hours on the
| budget, then you might find yourself doing your timesheets
| on time._
|
| I have problems submitting my timesheets on time. It's
| mostly because it's a boring, mind-dumbing chore, done
| using a GUI designed to prove that evil exists in this
| world. Like all modern timesheet tools, this one resists
| automation too. It's an annoyance that distracts me from
| the actual work I'm already behind on thanks to anxiety,
| and thus compounding the latter.
|
| Yes, the task takes maybe 5 minutes. Would, if I could
| focus. But my focus window for mind-dumbingly boring tasks
| and routines is around 30 seconds; anything more than that
| requires ongoing, conscious effort. In reality, those 5
| minutes usually turn into one hour, by the end of which I'm
| all dripping from stress-induced sweating.
|
| I mean, I could've done my timesheets for the last two
| weeks four times over, in the time it took me to write this
| comment. Yet somehow, this comment is up, and the
| timesheets are not.
| tgaj wrote:
| You should read more about ADHD. I don't want to diagnose
| you but your problems are very similar.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| I am diagnosed. Meds help a lot, but it takes time to
| catch up with 33 years of dysfunctional coping
| strategies, some of which interact in surprising (i.e.
| bad) ways with the sudden improvement in executive
| functions.
| flir wrote:
| If you don't mind me asking, can you give some examples
| of how your coping strategies are clashing with your
| improved executive function? One I've noticed for myself:
| I used to leave things until late at night, because I was
| more "awake" then and the house was silent. The
| medication's basically forcing me to be a morning person,
| and that's a hard one to learn.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Sure. Some examples:
|
| 1) As I got used to finally being able to decide to do
| something, and then actually follow through without first
| having to win a mini-boss fight in my head, my perception
| of whole classes of tasks shifted - things I assumed were
| hard, or instinctively avoided, became things I knew I
| could do. This is good and how it should be, but what I
| didn't realize is that this state of things is still
| quite fragile. At some point I overloaded myself with
| responsibilities, and as I hit my limit, I started to
| slip up, which cracked my newfound trust in my own
| reliability - and things quickly spiraled down from
| there. Even though things got better, and they are better
| than they were before I was diagnosed, my self-image got
| seriously damaged. Even after half a year, I still
| haven't fully recovered.
|
| 2) I am a night person. Always have been. Whatever the
| reason underlying the reasons for this is, the meds
| didn't do much about it. What they did, however, is allow
| me to get away with much less sleep. This was super
| useful when my second daughter was born, as it made it
| easy for me to take the "first shift", feeding and
| changing the baby and letting my wife sleep more. Shift
| the meds schedule around to have one dose at 23:00, and I
| could do some work _and_ care for the kid until 02:00,
| then sleep some 5 hours, and feel well-rested in the
| morning. Of course, this was not sustainable; there were
| two major bad consequences:
|
| - "Sleep debt" kept accumulating, but since it was masked
| by my carefully-tuned med schedule, it took me way too
| long to notice I'm getting slower and less focused at
| everything.
|
| - The whole experience broke my internal rhythm that told
| me when to go to sleep. And with overall improved
| executive functioning, it only became easier to stay up
| late.
|
| 3) It also took me a while to realize that the meds are
| "sticky". That is, they make it easy to stay on course -
| wherever that course lead. While they also make it easier
| to switch tasks, the improved focus makes it harder to
| notice that I should switch. As a result, whatever I'm
| doing when the meds kick in, is what I'll most likely
| continue to be doing for the next couple hours. Whether
| that's work, or writing HN comments.
|
| 3a) This "stickiness" also makes it easier to waste time
| going too deep into low-value tangential tasks. Like e.g.
| that time when I was working on a bug that turned out to
| be a regex issue - specifically, someone assembled a
| regex by concatenating some string constants, and didn't
| notice a subtle bug. As I fixed it, I decided to make
| sure such bugs don't happen again. I started writing some
| utility functions, and... few days later, I ended up
| committing a small library for making regexes via
| composition, which structurally prevented the class of
| bugs like the one I was originally fixing. Suffice it to
| say, those few days could've been better used on some
| other tasks. After that experience, I learned to pay
| attention to early signs of going too far off tangents.
| That's definitely a med problem - before diagnosis, my
| procrastination would've stopped me from pursuing such
| tangents too far.
|
| (Or, in other words: meds make it easy to do the tasks
| that, before, I had to fight myself to do - but that
| fighting also served as a filter, forcing me to
| repeatedly consider whether the thing is worth doing at
| all.)
|
| All in all, I'm still adjusting. Many of the changes -
| both positive and negative - take a long time to become
| apparent.
| Zaofy wrote:
| I'm reading this while having my mailbox open on my second
| screen containing various high priority issues that I should
| _really_ take care of. Ironically the more I have to do, the
| less I finish.
|
| Luckiyl my adhd meds should kick in in about an hour making it
| much easier to focus on taking care of things.
| skhm wrote:
| i'm in more or less exactly the same boat, only i got
| diagnosed officially with adhd yesterday and wont receive any
| medication for a few weeks. hoping it's not a misdiagnosis
| and life becomes a little easier.
| [deleted]
| adindeed wrote:
| > hoping life becomes a little easier
|
| If I was going to be taking meds I would be hoping life
| becomes a LOT easier, considering the risks to disrupting
| the body's natural equilibrium. You should be very cautious
| of any drugs, especially mind-altering that must be taken
| frequently.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| A change that gets you "a little better" can very
| significantly impact the rest of your life, when you
| started at a low baseline.
| 12345hn6789 wrote:
| Would you care to post citations on side effects or
| dangers? Or are the doctors the ones who need to "do
| their research"?
| edrxty wrote:
| To those who come across this, ignore the ableist
| bullshit. ADHD medications are generally very effective.
| The biggest side effect is the asinine stigma they bring
| from people with zero understanding of ADHD or basic
| biochemistry.
| smokeydoe wrote:
| This is very defensive. Of course they are effective, but
| there are very few studies on the long term effects.
| Common sense says that dosing your body with neurotoxic
| amphetamines over a long period is not good for your
| central nervous system. Take it everyday if you want, but
| don't pretend to know about the safety of long term use.
|
| The drugs own warnings are pretty bad: https://dailymed.n
| lm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?setid=f22...
| prox wrote:
| People with ADHD might have benefit from working together.
| It's called doubling and originally made for people with
| ADHD. One of them is https://www.caveday.org/.
| wruza wrote:
| _the more I have to do, the less I finish_
|
| It's interesting that we know and appreciate that there will
| be more work tomorrow and next week, but when you see it in
| advance, it pushes you to the bed.
|
| One thing that [somewhat] helps me with it is breaking down
| the next thing into a list of pretty trivial tasks on paper,
| while leaving the rest at where it came from. Makes you focus
| on what's here and now. Out of sight, out of mind. Doesn't
| work 100% but helps a little if I manage to forget the rest
| enough.
| Zaofy wrote:
| There's a ton of different tips and everyone's different.
| In my case no amount of list making has ever really helped
| because I still got easily distracted, either by external
| factors ("Hey, could you have a quick look at this?") or by
| myself ("Fiddlesticks, I completely forgot that I wanted to
| do x an hour ago!" repeat ad nauseum)
|
| The meds help me to actually stay focused on a single thing
| instead of every distraction completely throwing me off and
| not getting any work done at all because I'm doing 6 things
| at once and constantly starting them from beginning
| futureduck wrote:
| I do a similar hack: when I feel especially "procrastinaty"
| and can't seem to get into doing the thing I'm supposed to
| I break things that I have on my plate down to lists with
| sublists that often have sublists (that often have
| sublists, recurse).
|
| It's not always useful, but it does eventually consume
| enough resources to starve the anxiety thread and some of
| these lists end up as the (pre)analysis for the tasks I'm
| supposed to be working on.
|
| Sometimes I don't get a good list for the task I'm
| currently expected to solve but I make progress on some
| other thing that piqued my interest. This helps me justify
| spending the time on just making lists because not all of
| it is useless and lessens the anxiety about not getting
| anything done.
|
| When I do get a good enough list for the thing I'm supposed
| to be doing I usually feel less anxiety about doing it
| because I know exactly what I'm supposed to be doing.
| prox wrote:
| Another hack : just pick one thing from the list and do
| that really well. All the rest is a bonus.
|
| Another one : learn to say no -and this is a big one and
| difficult in some cases- but setting boundaries can help.
| Some people just never communicate that they are swamped.
| Ask your manager or higher up on what they consider a
| good days work and how it differs from your experience.
| 331c8c71 wrote:
| So true... I enjoy coding on weekends for work-related projects
| just because I feel no self-pressure of being productive. I
| don't do it often but the feeling is there.
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| Maybe for you. I have 0 anxiety, it's just lazyness or instant
| boredom.
| edrxty wrote:
| I wish it was easier to focus on psilocybin because in low
| doses it absolutely obliterates anxiety. Stress becomes a very
| distant concept that your brain can just brush aside trivially.
| You can just kinda relax and exist in the present without being
| distracted by the future.
| kuhzaam wrote:
| Are you referring to like microdoses (in regards to the
| difficulty focusing)? Or larger than that?
| User_1 wrote:
| Seriously, going from someone with serious anxiety to the point
| of agoraphobia, to someone with relatively normal degrees of
| anxiety is like turning the difficulty knob on life from
| "hardcore" to "easy". From "doing nothing every day" to
| "something is off if I didn't accomplish anything today".
| ulnarkressty wrote:
| How did you achieve that?
| erlich wrote:
| > Most of the time it's anxiety.
|
| My first thought was: you're crazy.
|
| But then I thought deeper and as an adult I realized that there
| is a cost/benefit to everything that somewhat didn't exist as a
| child. Most of us cannot escape triggers of anxiety anymore. If
| you have everything you need, and complete freedom, you still
| can't escape the arrow of time for example.
|
| I still think zero pressure doesn't work in the way you think
| it does. It's exactly something someone says when they are pre-
| occupied most of the time. It's wishful thinking.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _I still think zero pressure doesn 't work in the way you
| think it does. It's exactly something someone says when they
| are pre-occupied most of the time. It's wishful thinking._
|
| You'd be surprised how much pressure can go down when you
| have fuck you money and you don't give a fuck about running
| some business, the "protestant work ethic", or getting more,
| just spend it and enjoy life. Met a few such types, and they
| feel zero pressure.
|
| You still have inevitable stuff to worry about like
| relationships and health of course.
| erlich wrote:
| > they feel zero pressure
|
| But then it's a question of whether they have the
| motivation to complete the projects they want to.
|
| It's really easy not to ship things, and never know where
| they might have led.
| hinkley wrote:
| The unfortunate thing with procrastination is that the
| anxiety is bimodal. You avoid doing things because there's
| anxiety about fucking it up.
|
| Then as the deadline approaches, not finishing at all is a
| kind of "fucking it up" that is not at all abstract or
| hypothetical. So now the anxiety of the deadline is focusing
| you on the task. It's exhausting for one, and for another
| when you get a good review on your work you feel like a
| fraud, because everyone else took weeks to do this and you
| slammed it out in 6-10 hours.
| hinkley wrote:
| I started taking an off-label prescription (meant for
| depression, works for attention issues) a while back, and at
| first the dose was too high. I'd think, "the trash should go
| out", which for a procrastinator usually starts a whole
| internal dialog full of bargaining about how the pickup isn't
| for two days so I'll just take it out the next time I put
| something in the can and it'll be fine. And then go back to
| whatever I was doing or not doing.
|
| The first time this happened on the too high dose, the next
| thing I knew I was standing at the garbage can closing the lid,
| and wondering how the fuck did that happen? Now I was having
| side effects too but the feeling of mild disassociation was
| deeply disturbing, and got stronger when the pills wore off and
| I could reflect back on the day. So we cut the dose by about
| 40%.
|
| I suspect half of why it works is that anything that treats
| depression probably also reduces anxiety and self defeating
| behaviors, in addition to stringing longer lists of tasks
| together, which is why it works off label for some classes of
| notorious procrastinators.
|
| I was talking to my therapist about this a couple weeks ago
| (I'm trying something different now and it's not working), and
| I asserted that a procrastinator - or at least an adult one -
| will never willingly take a mind altering substance that 100%
| eliminates the thought of procrastination because while it's
| absolutely not the best part of who we are, it _is_ part of who
| we are. Ideally for me, and I think for many others, you would
| hit the point were your brain still says, "we could do this
| tomorrow!" sometimes, but you choose to ignore that voice and
| do it anyway.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| I've never met anyone like this, but imagine if you will
| someone who _can 't_ procrastinate. Not someone who doesn't
| want to, but someone actually unable to leave something until
| tomorrow.
|
| I think that would raise questions about their wellbeing and
| health. That seems like they have lost a healthy part of
| normal function.
| hinkley wrote:
| The procrastinator in me wants to agree unreservedly with
| you. But I know that guy better than anything and I can't
| trust him.
|
| I suppose that "never procrastinating" could end up looking
| like a weirder form of stream of consciousness, distracted
| behavior? Where you mean to go out for drinks but you get
| stuck yak shaving and then it's midnight. I'd worry about
| that guy too. He is wound up way too tight and I think he
| ends up with a .308 on a clock tower some day.
| bakuninsbart wrote:
| Agreed, which is why for me the most effective way of starting
| it is doing something even harder first, but with less anxiety
| like taking an ice cold shower or doing a math proof.
| Afterwards I usually feel less anxious and the wall towards
| starting the task being small enough to jump over.
| theonething wrote:
| Often I find myself most productive (about work) during non-
| work hours. I wonder if has something to do with what you are
| saying.
| ptato wrote:
| >You're not exploring something. Asking for something. Acting on
| something. Why? Because it's a bad idea.
|
| No, it's because it is hard. If it is a bad idea, why would I
| want to do it?
| [deleted]
| retskrad wrote:
| I think people who procrastinate haven't developed project
| management skills. It's crucial to teach kids from an early age
| to break down tasks and map it out until the next deadline,
| wether it be an essay or a test. This way the anxiety greatly
| diminishes because doing even small amount of work each day will
| lead to great results over time.
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