[HN Gopher] Money is the megaphone of identity (2020)
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Money is the megaphone of identity (2020)
Author : yamrzou
Score : 99 points
Date : 2023-06-21 20:29 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (moretothat.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (moretothat.com)
| j7ake wrote:
| This is a very USA centric view.
|
| In many European countries, freedom of attention is attained by
| having strong social support (eg free day care, education, health
| care, quality food, strong employment and tenant laws).
|
| Many people in Europe live without thinking about money 24/7 but
| are in absolute terms less rich than high paid people in nyc and
| sf.
| jacobwilliamroy wrote:
| As a US citizen, I think about money all the time. What country
| do you think I should move to to escape this?
| digitalengineer wrote:
| "I decided to take a 50% payout... and somehow I feel...
| happier?" American working in The Netherlands.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw0gJgMhaqo
| LoganDark wrote:
| Looks like you're gonna need money to move, though.
| [deleted]
| fosk wrote:
| Italy, a small town in southern Italy specifically.
| [deleted]
| JohnFen wrote:
| "Money don't buy what you really need It make an ice
| man cry, it make a stone man bleed But when you
| get right down to it, no matter who you are It rules
| your life like a virgin queen One day you might get
| over it, but in the meantime It rules the world like
| a green machine" -- The Alan Parsons Project,
| "Money Talks"
|
| That truth is why I hate money.
| cscurmudgeon wrote:
| Move to a country that is safe from external aggressors
| without help from the US while also not having these worries.
|
| That leaves a total of .... 0 countries.
| vaidhy wrote:
| To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a friend
| is fatal - Henry Kissinger.
|
| yes, WW-3 might be right over the horizon and we all can be
| bombed out of extinction.. but the world has changed from
| middle ages.
| cscurmudgeon wrote:
| > To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a
| friend is fatal - Henry Kissinger.
|
| Kissinger said so, therefore it must be true.
|
| > but the world has changed from middle ages
|
| No one said the world is in the Middle Ages.
|
| But Europe always comes needing US support though.
| SCUSKU wrote:
| "Wherever you go, there you are" -- While I do think you can
| move to a lower cost of living area, you can't outrun your
| relationship to money. If you have a tendency to spend on
| things you don't need, then you will be forced to think about
| money all of the time.
|
| Accepting less, living below your means, and finding
| happiness in non-material things could be one way to escape
| this.
|
| Of course, there is also the option of moving to developing
| countries and leveraging your financial privilege as an
| American, e.g. South America/South East Asia.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| For real. Deepen your relationship with money so that it's
| more comfortable, nuanced, and stable. Like a relationship
| with an old friend. Even if you lose touch for a while,
| they're still there for you.
|
| Otherwise there will still be a tendency to view money in
| "have it / don't have it" terms, or similar lines of
| thought that will require not only thinking about money all
| the time, but doing so in a way that takes far too much
| personal attention and energy.
|
| A lot of people have the false belief that thinking about
| money too much is a sin, or an unwise mistake. But you can
| also look at this tendency as beginner-level money-ing.
| Education and deep experience / analysis of the topic
| really help.
|
| IMO you can also still retain happiness in material things
| if you develop your relation to/with them, too. For
| example, understanding them as symbolic totems or
| touchstones, or pointers toward a higher quality of life in
| terms of any perspectives they may symbolically suggest
| independent of your own established perspectives. (Once you
| start to do this you'll start to eat away at merchants'
| profit margins since your concept of worth & value will
| deepen, and a sort of optimization skill will set in. :-))
| pistolpeteDK wrote:
| If you can live with the high taxes, then scandinavia is
| nice. The social safety net makes money less important. Free
| health care is the big one. Not having to worry at all about
| hospital bills(ever) is a great relief.
| carlosjobim wrote:
| People in Europe will plan their life around best exploiting
| government monetary benefits, so I'm not sure if I can really
| agree with your point. From things like deciding what month to
| get pregnant in order to maximize some welfare benefit, to
| entire businesses specializing in getting corporate welfare
| instead of actually producing anything, to farmers growing
| stuff they have no need for in order to get over a square meter
| threshold to increase their subsidy. I've had the misfortune of
| listening to hours upon hours of these boring conversations,
| with everyday people giving each other tips to get as much as
| possible from the government. Wether it's a financial benefit
| or the benefit of getting more days to stay at home on your
| couch and watch TV.
|
| Give me the American flavor of greed any day. At least some
| great ideas and some great stories come from it.
| jxramos wrote:
| that would be great to actually turn into an investigative
| documentary in video format. I'd be curious to get a taste of
| experiencing what you experienced.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| I live and work in Europe, even in a country with one of the
| best corporate and government wellfare. It is true that a lot
| of people think about how to exploit the system regularly.
| That said, i am not one of them (at least not for a big
| amount), and a lot of people really enjoy being more relaxed
| about the possibility of getting ill or loosing a job,
| without fear of bankruptcy. This while liking their job and
| putting a lot of effort doing it well. So i guess some bias
| kicked in by having been surrounded by people of the former
| type...
| [deleted]
| glonq wrote:
| My dad took our family through a rags-to-riches-to-rags arc, so
| for me... (1) I never want be in 'rags' again (2) I never take
| for granted what I've got (3) I'm guilty of having a 'scarcity
| mentality' (quick to save, slow to spend or share).
| RigelKentaurus wrote:
| Poignant essay. I was in the author's shoes twenty-five years
| ago. I was an immigrant from India in my early twenties searching
| for a job in San Jose. At one point, I had $7 in the bank and had
| to live in my hatchback for a few days. One of my strongest
| memories is finally finding a job and resolving never to be in
| that situation again. I learned all I could about investing,
| budgeting and saving. Now in my mid-forties, my wife and I can
| retire if we want to.
|
| Turns out my fear of poverty and homelessness, rather than any
| positive thoughts on how money can be an enabler, has been my
| biggest motivator.
| WWLink wrote:
| This sounds like some kinda CEO "You should love your job and
| strive to do a job you'd do for free!" "It's not about the
| money!" propaganda nonsense written by some asshole CEO trying to
| defend their subpar wages lol.
|
| Edit: OMG LOL the predator/parasite "stop villainizing rich
| people" image.
| [deleted]
| VinLucero wrote:
| Love this and wish I had written it about my own journey.
| ricardobayes wrote:
| This is extremely eye-opening.
| qingcharles wrote:
| As someone who previously made millions of dollars and is now
| reduced to a single broken suitcase[*] for all his possessions
| and is homeless, living in a sleeping bag, this article resonates
| with me. I help a lot of other homeless people and it is very,
| very hard to totally reboot your life when all you have in the
| world is the one set of dirty clothes on your back.
|
| [*] it was a wheelie suitcase I found, but I wore the wheels
| completely off it carrying cans of food from the food pantries
| for everyone.
| Ecoste wrote:
| How did that happen, if you don't mind me asking?
| knd775 wrote:
| Not quite doubting you, but you mentioned having a landlord 3
| days ago.
| bluepod4 wrote:
| Didn't you read the comment? His landlord got hit in a head-
| on collision and refused an ambulance because he was carrying
| a stack of rent cash in his car. You have to assume the
| landlord died and OP became homeless 3 days later.
|
| (I'm joking lol. I definitely want to call cap on the
| sleeping bag homeless situation.)
| mysterydip wrote:
| Just curious but where did the millions go? I assume a split
| between assets and consumables (food, drink,
| events/experiences).
| igammarays wrote:
| I don't understand how a person falls into complete
| homelessness, barring severe mental illness or addiction. Don't
| you have family or friends you could at least stay with
| temporarily? I moved to a country where I have zero family, but
| even here I have friends I could stay with if I ended up being
| unable to pay the rent.
| dazc wrote:
| 'I moved to a country where I have zero family, but even here
| I have friends I could stay with if I ended up being unable
| to pay the rent.'
|
| Not parent post but...
|
| Imagine a scenario where friends and family are the last
| people on Earth you are going to ask for help. Not everyone
| is of the same mindset you describe.
|
| Pride, mental health issues, family history, etc all play a
| part. I was homeless once, a combination of these things is
| what stopped me asking for help.
|
| I have relatives who are regulars on the Sunday Times Rich
| List, some good loyal friends and 3 siblings. Go figure.
| majormajor wrote:
| > even here I have friends I could stay with if I ended up
| being unable to pay the rent
|
| Time plays a factor. How long do you think they'd put you up?
| One month? Six? A year? Two years? Five years?
|
| And if you pick up some bad habits while being unable to get
| back on your feet and living with friends... that can get you
| booted more quickly.
| johnla wrote:
| I love this essay.
| pixel3234 wrote:
| > freedom money can buy as it relates to your work.
|
| > power of money resides in its ability to provide a better life
| for our families.
|
| I really hate this mentality, it sees money as power to buy
| freedom and eventually to "buy family".
|
| For me the key is to minimize expenses to some reasonable
| minimum. It does not matter how much I make, it does not affect
| my lifestyle much. Maybe I would buy a nicer laptop. I gave up on
| being slave to money long time ago.
|
| That includes being a slave to family! I am open to serious
| relationship, but most people think I am cheap bum. I have no
| reason to change their opinions!
| majormajor wrote:
| I don't see so much disagreement. You still "bought freedom" by
| reducing your expenses past the point where you're precarious
| financially.
|
| > It does not matter how much I make, it does not affect my
| lifestyle much.
|
| One fifth your current level? One tenth? One hundredth?
|
| Or, if living mostly off of savings... well, that's even more
| explicitly having used money to "buy freedom".
| pixel3234 wrote:
| Look into article, it is all Phase 1, Phase 2.... like an
| elevator. And absolute top is helping community like proper
| tradcon. It does not even count with possibility, that people
| do not really care about such things. There is no basic
| reasoning about "should we do it"? Usual endgame is to settle
| down with bad partner.
|
| I like hiking and traveling. I am always in climate that has
| nice temperatures, usually near sea. Sometimes I sleep on
| beach, sometimes in hotel. All via super cheap deals (you get
| very good at that over time).
|
| If I would have less money, I would probably live healthier
| lifestyle. I would cut alcohol and meat, eat more veggies. I
| would also take long term lease, make some friends, that is
| another win for mental health.
| majormajor wrote:
| If you're in a position of saying "if I had less money
| [...] I'd take a long term lease" you already pretty far on
| the "buy freedom with money" ladder compared to a lot of
| people. (Or underestimating the difficulty in many places
| of getting a long term lease without having much money or
| steady employment without sacrificing some of your other
| things like nice climate.)
|
| You just did a different thing with your freedom. So the
| part of the mentality you just hate is that "once you have
| freedom you can provide for your family"?
| pixel3234 wrote:
| I am doing pretty well (crypto). But "long term lease"
| would be like $300/month condo near beach, tourist
| resorts are pretty cheap out of main season.
| acover wrote:
| Where?
| apsurd wrote:
| Had to look up "tradcon". Sounds pejorative. "...but should
| we?" is a good question, I agree. You mention that people
| _assume_ "building community" is a good thing we should do,
| and that you are unconvinced that people really care about
| such things.
|
| You end your paragraph suggesting that longer term lease (a
| more stable physical location) + make some friends = win
| for mental health. This would be my basic description of
| building community. What do you think?
| pixel3234 wrote:
| > paragraph suggesting that longer term lease
|
| Changing locations every few weeks wears you down, some
| recovery is needed.. And "making some friends" is an
| euphemism for mating if you have to know, very hard to
| get quality stuff if you are just passing through.
|
| I get the whole "building community", some people are
| really into it, but some others are not!
| apsurd wrote:
| Well it seems like you do agree that there is value in
| building a community and even stability. It's not that
| you refute the value, you just don't want it forced down
| everyone's throats as some self-righteous ideal and
| measure of a man. I agree with that.
|
| edit to add: re: "...very hard to get quality stuff" lol
| yeah that's funny, I came back to this because "the good
| stuff" in my experience has to do with intimacy, and that
| takes some kind of earned connection over time, I don't
| want to make any moral argument, connections can come in
| various ways, who am I to say. So purely observational,
| interesting to think about the idea of quality (physical)
| connections whether there is some necessity for more
| "tradcon" concepts as you mention.
| burnished wrote:
| Your position seems a little hypocritical? Your life style
| wouldn't be possible without other people valuing community -
| nothing wrong with it or for pointing out other ways of living,
| but you are coming off as kind of hostile towards a structure
| you depend on and it bothers me.
| [deleted]
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| Money (spent) is the measure of someone's pollution footprint
| [deleted]
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| If you make $40k you are in the top 1% of the world income.
| MuffinFlavored wrote:
| I feel like this stat is useless. Sure, it gives perspective
| that people in some other country don't value money, but they
| also aren't stuck on a computer all day doing a job they don't
| like.
|
| https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherma...
|
| Plenty of American's making $40k/yr probably hate their
| lives/wish they didn't make $40k/yr.
| JohnFen wrote:
| But to be meaningful, you have to scale that according to the
| cost of living where you are.
| johnla wrote:
| Yes, it's good to keep a good perspective by thinking our
| position relative to the world but relative to our surroundings
| and cost of living too. Probably living the US, we're near the
| top for expenditures/costs too.
| vaidhy wrote:
| In US, I feel like I am always in phase 1. While I am very well
| in the top 5% in terms of wealth, I also feel I am only one
| serious illness away from bankruptcy and that is stressing me
| out. If comfortable retirement (living a middle class life) is
| only available to people with a multi-million dollar retirement
| fund, I see no purpose in even aiming for a retirement in US.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > I see no purpose in even aiming for a retirement in US.
|
| Welcome to the sad club. Retirement age is within sight for me
| and my friends, and most of my circle is not in a position to
| be able to retire.
| acover wrote:
| What is retirement age to you? 65?
| nradov wrote:
| Full US Social Security retirement age is 67. That might be
| raised again by the time that younger people become
| eligible.
| Buttons840 wrote:
| Call me a pessimist, but I wouldn't be surprised if in
| the coming years Social Security age is increased while
| life expectancy declines.
| vuln wrote:
| Hell they tell me straight up I'll only ever get a
| maximum of 80% of what I put in. I'm sure that percentage
| will be reduced in the next 40 years...
| jxramos wrote:
| there was a financial advisor at Apple who gave talks to
| employees and iirc they did mention that they used a
| rough percentage for advising clients with for what to
| expect from Social Security. It may have been 2/3 or 3/4
| or 70%. I don't think it was as high as 80.
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| Maybe not much consolation, but even crummy health insurance
| plans have yearly limits where you'd "only" ever have to pay,
| like, twenty grand a year out of pocket on medical expenses.
| Significantly lower for better plans, of course.
|
| ...
|
| Assuming your plan is willing to cover the remaining expenses
| in the first place.
|
| (Yeah, it's not an irrational fear :P)
| vaidhy wrote:
| I also just learnt that Medicaid can place a lien on your
| house in some cases. Maybe, the solution is to move out of
| US, but that is equally difficult with an Indian passport.
| raincom wrote:
| There are ways to protect your home from such liens. Enter
| medicaid asset protection trusts.
| ridgeguy wrote:
| In California, having your assets (home included) in a
| living trust shields those assets from Medicaid/Medical
| lookback forfeiture. [1] A living trust is a good idea for
| other reasons as well.
|
| [1] https://www.medicaidplanningassistance.org/asset-
| protection-...
| vuln wrote:
| Florida has the Homestead act to prevent this.
| nwiswell wrote:
| > I am only one serious illness away from bankruptcy and that
| is stressing me out
|
| Well, you're only one serious illness away from death. I'm not
| trying to be flippant here; there are more things that can
| properly kill you rather than just make you seriously ill and
| bankrupt you, provided your health insurance is decent.
|
| I do want to emphatically underscore that this isn't an
| endorsement of the system. It's just that if you're worried
| about _almost dying_ and you 're not worried about _actually
| dying_ , you're probably miscalibrated. The best we can do is
| minimize the risk of Really Bad Outcomes. No one, no matter how
| rich, can avoid them altogether. All of us are gonna die.
| Retric wrote:
| IMO, a great number of things are worse than death because
| dead me can't suffer while live me can. Death isn't
| unpleasant, it's a bad outcome for me only in that it
| prevents the pleasure of living well. My death is a concern
| for those who care for or are dependent on me, but so is my
| incapacity and suffering.
| nwiswell wrote:
| "Bankruptcy is literally worse than death" is a new one for
| me, gotta be honest.
|
| If you really feel that way, there's always the emergency
| exit.
| Arainach wrote:
| In some important ways it absolutely can be, and the
| emergency exit doesn't help.
|
| If I die, life insurance pays out. If I commit suicide,
| it doesn't.
|
| If I die, there are some basic optional-but-socially-
| mandatory costs around disposal of the corpse and a
| memorial ceremony. Those are fixed and measured in
| thousands, not tens or hundreds of thousands. My property
| and assets pass to my heirs. They are grieving but
| financially secure.
|
| Prolonged illness can sap my reserves dry and drain me of
| wealth in a manner matched only by the retirement home
| industry. My family can watch me suffer and wilt away
| while watching their potential financial security drip
| through a hose into my veins.
| thriftwy wrote:
| Sounds like a poor man's reinvention of Maslow's pyramid, with
| fewer levels.
| apsurd wrote:
| Interesting blog. The article is a good reminder of common
| introspections on money. I like the points on freedom: "freedom-
| as-leisure (vacations)", "freedom in work", and "freedom in
| attention". TLDR: what is wealth _really_? probably it's freedom
| in attention. But there is some baseline survival threshold to
| get to, and that's much lower than people may realize.
|
| Anyway, some constructive feedback if the author comes across
| this discussion:
|
| 1) The post is sooooooo long. I appreciate long-form content - I
| love Atlantic articles - so it doesn't have to be a 30 second
| TikTok clip, I just think it can be tightened up. A lot.
|
| 2) The illustrations lack their own context enough to be
| understood on their own. It's mildly annoying to look at them and
| have no clue what they express unless you read the before and
| after paragraphs. Consider adding enough context for them be
| self-contained.
|
| That said, I appreciate your labor and signed up for your
| newsletter!
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(page generated 2023-06-22 23:00 UTC)