[HN Gopher] Sub.Rehab - See where Reddit communities have relocated
___________________________________________________________________
Sub.Rehab - See where Reddit communities have relocated
Author : thunderbong
Score : 437 points
Date : 2023-06-20 10:26 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (sub.rehab)
(TXT) w3m dump (sub.rehab)
| hacker_9 wrote:
| I have to say, watching this car crash in real time has
| ironically made me browse reddit more, just to watch the drama
| unfold. It's the same with twitter, these community sites have
| become so big, that the actions they take themselves are
| newsworthy.
|
| The way this is unfolding, I can imagine this being a case study
| in a future revision of 'how to win friends and influence
| people', on completely what not to do. If that book is worth it's
| salt, then reddit's management complete unwillingness to work
| with its community, and constant lies, leading to virtual riots
| on its sites, should result in it's total collapse.
| irthomasthomas wrote:
| https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration
| nailer wrote:
| Lemmy seems to be OK. I clicked on https://lemmy.ml/c/apple and
| was _entertained and informed_ rather than the content being
| about the protest, or about how great some new platform is.
|
| Someone that can hack Swift and likes money:
|
| please make a Lemmy app. Currently there's nothing in the iOS App
| Store. I will pay 5 dollars. Probably other people will too.
| rglullis wrote:
| Before offering money for a shiny client, please find an
| instance that is outside of the top 5 and support them? :)
| nailer wrote:
| I don't have any reason to not like instances outside of the
| top 5.
| rglullis wrote:
| If they continue getting people like you who can't think
| one step ahead, then they collapse under their own weight.
| Are you _then_ going to look after another instance or are
| you going to be complaining about how "it doesn't work"?
|
| Even the lemmy.ml admins (who are also the Lemmy
| developers) are asking people to find other instances.
| nailer wrote:
| Perhaps they should have thought themselves realised that
| it is not reasonable to expect end users to think one
| step ahead. Have you ever made software that was used by
| people?
|
| > be complaining about how "it doesn't work"?
|
| You just stated that it won't work. I'm not sure why you
| would blame users for that, they're not building it.
|
| From the sounds of it, maybe I was wrong and Lemmy isn't
| OK.
| rglullis wrote:
| It's not like they stated a goal of creating something
| exactly like Reddit. They are building an application
| that is meant to be decentralized and with no single
| entity concentrating power - or in the case of social
| media, "eyeballs".
|
| Do you think they should just say "oh, we set out to
| build something to help people get rid of Big Tech and
| Surveillance Capitalism, but people are really impatient
| so we are just going to scrap that and do that instead?"
|
| The fact that it doesn't work if everyone tries to gather
| around a handful of servers is a _feature_ and not a bug.
| If others can not be patient, supportive or understanding
| enough, then what else can we say besides "good luck and
| I hope that Big Tech does not destroy you like they are
| destroying everyone else"?
| fcanela wrote:
| I was planning to implement the same thing. Happy to see there is
| a way to quickly check where to go instead of Reddit or when a
| community is private.
| singularity2001 wrote:
| Lemmy doesn't even have a dedicated app. What a missed
| opportunity
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| There is an app afaik, Mlem, being actively developed, it's in
| Testflight stage now. The TF tester list is full.
| btw0 wrote:
| A more compact directory: https://redditmigration.com
| edvards wrote:
| Wonder whether any of the new platforms will gain traction, or
| whether what happened to Twitter repeats and the users will just
| return from the alternatives.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| I don't think anyone has returned to Twitter from Mastodon, of
| course most people didn't migrate in the first place, but
| Mastodon is much more active than it was a year ago.
| RoyGBivCap wrote:
| Like three people went to mastadon.
| stinkytaco wrote:
| They have, especially big names that count on high follower
| numbers and analytics. I run across lots of accounts that
| have 2 or 3 posts, then stopped.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| >especially big names that count on high follower numbers
| and analytics.
|
| Like the parent comment said, those names never left to
| begin with
|
| > I run across lots of accounts that have 2 or 3 posts,
| then stopped.
|
| yeah, you can do that with any random social media account.
| The average Redditor barely comments.
| c-fe wrote:
| Its beyond me why one would move away from Reddit due to changes
| in the API pricing making it hard (but not impossible) for 3rd
| party apps ... to discord, which is completely closed off and
| allows no 3rd party apps? Even worse, content on discord wont be
| visible on search engines.
| RHSeeger wrote:
| The part that gets me is that they serve totally different use
| cases. Reddit is a message board; people post things and then
| discuss them over a period of time. Discord is a chat program;
| any thing discussed "in the past" (more than 5 minutes ago) is
| pretty much gone, and it's almost impossible to follow "a
| discussion thread". Discord is absolutely awful for anything
| but live discussion. And Reddit is anything but live
| discussion.
| pgm8705 wrote:
| Discord does has a "Forum" mode for channels. I cannot for
| the life of me figure out why no servers seem to use it.
| Trying to follow conversations or find useful info in a
| normal chat channel is incredibly frustrating.
| programzeta wrote:
| The forum (as well as 'stage' and 'announcement') feature
| requires changing to a "community" instance which has some
| other strings attached. AFAICT long-running servers would
| never know the new setting is available.
| RDaneel0livaw wrote:
| This is exactly why I cringe when any company support or
| communities say "check out our discord!" Which equals to me
| "you'll never find anything and we don't care!"
| add-sub-mul-div wrote:
| Discord has a good official client, Reddit no longer has any
| good client.
|
| Of course, the wheel of enshittening could land on Discord
| someday. But for now it's a pleasure to use while Reddit is a
| chore.
|
| Conversation doesn't have to be visible on search engines. The
| last thing I did on Reddit was to remove all my comments
| anyway. If I can feel more anonymous and ephemeral on Discord
| that's not a bad thing.
| INTPenis wrote:
| Looking at the twitch stream of the reddit protest you can tell
| that most people have no idea what the hell is going on. They
| have no idea that they're not paying for a free service, they
| have no idea what this means for users of a free centralized
| service, and all they really want is to hang out somewhere and
| feel empowered.
| koolba wrote:
| Even the HTML sites I tried manage to suck even more than
| Reddit. I didn't think it was possible, but they're even worse
| than "new" Reddit.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| Between two walled gardens, choosing the one that's not being
| lead by a moron is all you can do...
| dewey wrote:
| At least Reddit is a walled garden compared to a walled silo
| that is Discord and can't be searched or discovered.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| Except Reddit's management has made it pretty clear that
| Reddit is in fact a walled- _time-bomb_ , everything you
| love about Reddit can be blown with a 2 months notice (if
| any, I'm not aware of any notice before they removed
| _i.reddit.com_ earlier this year).
| dewey wrote:
| They make money through ads, closing off traffic coming
| in through search engines doesn't really sound realistic.
| rglullis wrote:
| Except that there are plenty of other gardens out there that
| do not have any of the fundamental issues that exist on
| Reddit/Discord.
| duped wrote:
| It's not about the API pricing, it's about killing the only
| decent apps for browsing the website. Reddit needs 3P apps
| because their app sucks. Discord doesn't because their app
| doesn't.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Discord is convenient and polished, plus there's only one
| Discord and many already have an account there.
|
| I don't agree that it's a good alternative to Reddit but I can
| see why people might find it more appealing than something like
| a Lemmy instance.
|
| I think federated social media can become more appealing but to
| do so it's going to have become extremely well-polished and
| full of features to overcome the need to choose an instance and
| register an account. There's not much room for rough edges.
| CamelCaseName wrote:
| This whole thing has been about:
|
| [1] Reddit not building the needed tools for its free labor and
| relying on third parties to do it for them, then taking those
| tools away without providing another option
|
| [2] Disrespecting moderators and powerusers by insulting them
| ("landed gentry"), creating incentives for them to scab on each
| other, and being threatening and doublehanded at every turn, if
| not outright lying.
|
| [3] A decade of broken promises on feature development, trust n
| safety failures, half baked features that no one asked for that
| end up shut down.
|
| [4] Breaking the illusion that users ever owned their data
| (posts, comments) and communities.
|
| Not all these reasons apply to everyone, but at least one of
| them applies to most people protesting.
|
| Reddit has built up so much bad will. They could have been a
| great steward of the internet (and made money doing it!), but
| instead they decided to attack their community of moderators
| (the same insult they hurl at moderators, saying they are
| attacking their community of users!)
|
| Discord, for its faults, does not have the same issues.
| bentcorner wrote:
| https://infosec.exchange/@mainframed767/110566074308214399
|
| > _As they make it halfway across, the scorpion, named
| Reddit, poisons the frog they were riding on. Killing them
| both._
|
| > _Seeing this betrayal, the other frog on the shore turns to
| his scorpion, named Discord, and says "surely you see now and
| won't do the same to me." "Of course not" replies the
| scorpion._
| kmeisthax wrote:
| If you only care about API access, Discord already stung
| the frog on the shore years ago. Reddit was the last
| holdout for relatively open API policies on a large social
| platform. Hell, the Fediverse is chock full of people who
| oppose open access and thought it was unindexable. At one
| point someone was harassed for the audacity to try and
| _make_ a Fediverse index. My Mastodon feed is full of
| people really worried that Meta might try to interop with
| the Fediverse, even though that 's our _win condition_!
|
| For me personally, API access wasn't the final straw - it
| was Spez's repeated and malincompetent attempts to justify
| it. Actually, Spez has had a long history of abusing admin
| privileges for stupid reasons, and I probably should have
| left years ago. I can't think of anything in Discord's
| history that's even remotely as bad as, say, editing the
| posts of an idiot /r/TD poster to make them look stupider
| than they already are. So I can understand why someone
| might move from Reddit to Discord even though Discord has
| the same policy everyone is angry at Reddit for adopting.
| emaginniss wrote:
| > and made money doing it
|
| How do you see that happening? Part of the reason for the
| pricing on the APIs was to ensure that more people saw the
| ads. I know I never see them when I use BaconReader.
|
| Monetizing something like Reddit is always going to be a
| struggle, especially since the Reddit crowd is more tech-
| savvy than the Twitter and Facebook users, thus more likely
| to use ad-blockers.
|
| I honestly don't know of a way that a social networking
| system can ever have a near-universal scale and still make
| money. Sure, a niche community that relies on contributions
| from its members to offset development and hosting could
| work, but not Reddit or Twitter with they way they're going.
| FB is still going pretty strong, but last I checked, 70% of
| the main feed content I saw were ads.
| rossriley wrote:
| Let's put this in context, Reddit has somewhere in the
| region of 1.2 Billion users a month and supposedly earn
| somewhere in the region of $350Million a year in
| advertising revenue. This is a very good business and
| something that could easily be profitable.
|
| The issue is they took in VC investment at a $10Billion+
| valuation and for that $350M is not enough they need to
| probably triple it to get somewhere close to that
| valuation.
|
| So let's not confuse on paper profitability with desired
| profitability at current VC valuation.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Personally, I moved because the redesign (from years ago)
| pushed the community in a bad direction. I don't like the
| current reddit, and people talking about alternatives is what
| pushed me.
| senko wrote:
| > Discord, for its faults, does not have the same issues.
|
| Yet. Give it time (and clout). They're going to try to move
| and expand that's for certain, and then it'll be time to
| become profitable / sellable.
|
| As others commented, they've taken VC money and that comes
| with strings attached. For another indication, look at the
| current unique names migration that, while nowhere near the
| scale of Reddit drama, is leaving a lot of people pretty
| annoyed.
| tourmalinetaco wrote:
| > look at the current unique names migration
|
| For context, Discord went from appending 4-digit
| identifiers, such as "username#XXXX", to removing them
| entirely and demanding names be changed en masse.
|
| This has naturally led to multiple cases of stolen
| identity, which ironically this was advertised to reduce as
| you could supposedly unify your identity across-platforms.
| However it was a staggered, unprioritized rollout, not to
| mention the entire movement to a less private and secure
| username model being unnecessary. It truly shows that
| Discord is unsurprisingly just as bad as Reddit, if not
| worse in many respects.
| senko wrote:
| Yeah, also apparently the premium (paid) members have
| priority for name picking, meaning someone can subscribe
| to Discord for a few months, squat the name and cancel.
|
| This makes a complicated situation even more annoying as
| it paints the thing as a cheap attempt at increasing
| monetization of the platform.
| commandlinefan wrote:
| > Reddit has built up so much bad will
|
| I think what bugs me the most about this current backlash is
| that _API pricing_ was the thing that offended everybody, not
| the reams of things that reddit has done over the past 10 or
| so years to deserve a backlash.
| revscat wrote:
| It wasn't, and isn't, about API pricing. 3Ps have
| repeatedly expressed their understanding in that regard. It
| was the exorbitant rates being charged, the 30 timeline
| given to make the changes, and the unwillingness of Reddit
| corporate to even take the money of those who expressed a
| willingness to pay.
|
| All of this is a result of bad faith efforts from Reddit
| corporate which never would have happened had it been
| handled differently from the outset, or adjustments made at
| any point in the process. Instead, Huffman has chosen the
| "do or die" route.
| noirbot wrote:
| I'm not sure the good wording for it, but it's sort of
| the "it's not the crime, it's the coverup" situation.
| Some small set of folks were mad about the original API
| stuff. The response to _those_ people was so wild,
| acrimonious, and abusive that it pushed a lot of other
| people over the edge.
|
| I would probably have still been using Reddit today if it
| was just the API change, but at this point I've quit out
| of almost pure spite.
| ornornor wrote:
| > Discord, for its faults, does not have the same issues.
|
| Yet. Reddit was a friend when Digg died. Any closed platform
| can do whatever they want whenever they want and as soon as
| they decide to start making money. I wouldn't trust discord
| to not pull a Reddit in a few years.
|
| Not. Your. Platform. Not. Your. Content.
| nobleach wrote:
| This is a cycle we can expect for any platform that has the
| bills. Hosting is not free. Storage is not free. Bandwidth
| is not free. Labor to fix bugs and develop features is not
| free. So this constant expectation that it should all be
| free (or even cheap) is not a realistic world view. We joke
| about the fact that "the cloud" isn't real, it's just
| someone else's computer. But isn't that kinda the basis of
| the current delusion? "We want to have complete freedom, be
| completely safe, get the features we want, have it for free
| and... don't bother me with any advertisement".
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| I do free community building all the time, both irl and
| online and can tell you the #1 thing lacking ... leaders.
|
| We could have exactly what you describe but people just
| don't step up and take responsibility and leadership.
|
| Its frustrating, exhausting and disheartening to
| constantly be dragging people into taking care of each
| other.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| As someone with similar experience, 100% agree.
|
| Free, competent, altruistically interested
|
| Pick two when looking for leaders.
|
| The "volunteer leader problem" boils down to looking for
| an altruistic individual who's capable and willing to put
| up with a ton of shit for... love of X.
|
| There aren't many. There shouldn't be any, but some
| people are awesome.
|
| In reality, you end up having to substitute some package
| of incentives (prestige, authority, etc.) in order to
| entice on-the-fence candidates, and then ride herd on
| ensuring they don't succumb to their baser instincts.
|
| So when mods say mod tools are important, what they're
| really saying is: "I put up with a lot of shit, to make
| you money, and I don't get paid. Give me _something_ in
| return that makes me feel like you 're thankful."
|
| Reddit's been pretty bad, historically and presently, at
| doing that.
| enw wrote:
| Yet, as expected, when threatened to take their online
| "authority" away so many Reddit mods buckled and opened
| the subreddits in a hearbeat.
| InSteady wrote:
| I don't have personal experience with this online, but
| IRL when you volunteer the people you are helping face to
| face (and others who see your actions) tend to be pretty
| vocal about thanking you and otherwise showing that they
| respect and appreciate what you are doing. I imagine
| online the vast majority of personal interaction is
| people who are aggrieved, angry, or just plain hate mods
| on an ideological level. I often wonder how many people
| go out of their way to directly contact the mods and say
| "thank you for what you are doing" on a regular basis. I
| tend to stick up for mods when I see people mindlessly
| bitching (r/science was terrible for this, because it's
| actually heavily moderated as it should be), but I only
| DMed a mod to say thanks on maybe one occasion...
|
| All that is to say, it's one thing to feel like the ratio
| of hate:love you are getting from users is pretty tilted
| towards the negative... but getting only empty words and
| no support from the institutional level is actual injury
| not just insult. That's why I stand with the mods, and
| after 10 years or so of daily usage I have left reddit
| for good (or until reasonable accommodations are made).
|
| Although I'll admit, I've been wanting to break my reddit
| habits for a long time, so this decision does include
| some self-interest on my part.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| I've volunteered as leadership in mixed IRL/online
| groups, and agreed that the online components were far
| more toxic.
|
| People who can't avoid being assholes to other people
| tend to avoid actually being around other people, but god
| knows they'll post a lot online.
|
| Or as a quip I once heard said, "You have a higher floor
| of politeness to people who can punch you in the face in
| reply."
| ornornor wrote:
| People are willing to pay Reddit, just not the exorbitant
| rates they're asking especially when they didn't lift a
| finger to empower the people working for Reddit for free.
| edgyquant wrote:
| Moderators do not work for Reddit just like group admins
| do no work for Facebook. These people are customers who
| use the product just like any other user. A section of
| the general population enjoy building and running
| communities which Reddit has empowered.
|
| Them thinking they're "working for Reddit" is the reason
| why so many of them seem out of touch. They are not
| Reddit employees and Reddit does not need them.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| >This is a cycle we can expect for any platform that has
| the bills.
|
| I am not surprised to hear this sentiment so frequently
| in this startup minded space, but there is another
| approach to the problem.
|
| IMO, Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, etc are technically
| "simple" (once you strip them down to what the end user
| actually needs from the service) and they provide
| incredibly valuable services to the world (well I think
| Twitter is incredibly lame, but I guess I am alone in
| this opinion). Why aren't there non-profit (or benefit
| corporation) versions of these services?
|
| Enshitification requires the profit motive.
| johnfernow wrote:
| > Why aren't there non-profit (or benefit corporation)
| versions of these services?
|
| From a quick search, it seems that the operating costs
| for Meta in 2022 was USD $87.66 billion. Twitter was $5.6
| billion in 2021. Reddit's is a mystery but it has 192
| million more monthly active users than Twitter (not that
| they necessarily post the same amount of content or that
| the content is as expensive to store/serve, but in any
| case it's not going to be cheap either.)
|
| So to run something like Facebook, you'd have to have one
| of the best-funded non-profits ever. Non-profit doesn't
| mean it has to be a charitable foundation (so you could
| run ads and sell services, which you'll need to, because
| you're not getting $87.66 billion through donations), but
| even non-profit companies with a decent amount of revenue
| do not come close to that amount. I don't think it's
| _impossible_ to create an ethical, non-profit alternative
| to Facebook, but I understand why one hasn 't been
| created (there are non-profit social networks, but most
| seem to be distributed/federated social networks, which
| are a very different experience for most users.)
|
| Even if you created something with perfect feature-parity
| of Facebook, it'd still be extremely difficult to
| convince users to switch. For messaging platforms, there
| _is_ a non-profit organization that has a secure and
| private messaging app (Signal) but few people use it
| compared to Facebook Messenger, Telegram and KakaoTalk
| (which by default don 't use end-to-end encryption) or
| even Snapchat (doesn't use E2EE for messages aside from
| photos) (WhatsApp at least always uses E2EE, not sure
| about Line.)
|
| > Enshitification requires the profit motive.
|
| Not really. Firefox killed support for WPAs: that alone
| is enough reason for some to switch to a Chromium-based
| browser. They've done several questionable UI redesigns
| that their users don't seem to like (people like a
| consistent UI.) They're also starting a bad trend of
| adding new features that they're killing within a year or
| two (their password manager, their E2EE file sharing
| service, their encrypted notes.) I personally didn't use
| any of those features, but for any user who used those
| new features that they promoted, having to switch a year
| or two later is a good way to turn them off your
| products. Google is obviously far worse with this with
| their various services, but the point is that quality can
| decrease even when their is no profit motive. I'll agree
| with you that it's certainly more likely to happy when
| there's a profit motive though.
| philote wrote:
| I think a better comparison would be the operating costs
| of Wikipedia/Wikimedia [0]
|
| I think non-profit versions of social media can easily
| happen from a financial standpoint. The big issue would
| be adoption.
|
| [0]: https://wikimediafoundation.org/about/annualreport/2
| 022-annu...
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| >operating costs for Meta in 2022 was USD $87.66 billion
|
| How much of that actual cost is related to running a
| simple social blogging/connecting tool vs anything that
| is ad/surveillance/manipulation/etc?
|
| Also, how much are they paying to moderate? Imagine the
| power of volunteer moderation when supported by a non-
| profit volunteer-focused organization that values its
| volunteer assets...
|
| >perfect feature-parity of Facebook
|
| All I wanted was a place to share baby pictures with
| grandma and they bolted on the panopticon...
|
| >it'd still be extremely difficult to convince users to
| switch.
|
| Even grandma knows that FB is evil now. She keeps asking
| me why the baby pics are on Facecrook, but I don't have
| any good solution for her today.
| johnfernow wrote:
| > How much of that actual cost is related to running a
| simple social blogging/connecting tool vs anything that
| is ad/surveillance/manipulation/etc?
|
| It's plausible that the ad/surveillance/manipulation/etc
| makes up the bulk of development costs nowadays but I'd
| imagine the actual content (photos, videos, etc.) being
| served makes up the bulk of the costs. It undoubtedly
| could be made more efficient, but even if you could cut
| total operating costs by 99% (very unlikely) you still
| need $876 million/year. If you can only manage to cut it
| by 95%, you'll need over $4 billion/year. In any case,
| Reddit doesn't pay most of its moderators and it's still
| not profitable, so I don't think moderators make up a
| significant portion of the costs.
|
| > >perfect feature-parity of Facebook
|
| > All I wanted was a place to share baby pictures with
| grandma and they bolted on the panopticon...
|
| > Even grandma knows that FB is evil now. She keeps
| asking me why the baby pics are on Facecrook, but I don't
| have any good solution for her today.
|
| If you only want to share things with a small number of
| users, do you even need social media for this? Sounds
| like something a group chat on Signal or WhatsApp (with
| notifications silenced) would work for this if everyone
| you know is willing to use it. I like Facebook because it
| lets me see what my friends, family and former coworkers
| that I can't always see often are up to. Hard to stay in
| contact with everyone you've ever been friends with, but
| Facebook makes it a little easier.
|
| I agree with you that Facebook is evil in many ways, and
| I'll 100% advocate for viable alternatives (which
| unfortunately I don't think distributed/federated
| networks are, due to regular users being confused by
| them), but I acknowledge that it's going to be very
| difficult to get people to switch. Ultimately I think
| there needs to be a reason to switch other than privacy
| (as most people don't care), and unfortunately Facebook
| can quickly copy any unique feature that an alternative
| network adds. It's not impossible for new platforms to
| come about, but most new platforms aren't really clones
| of old ones (TikTok isn't a clone of Facebook, YouTube or
| really any other major existing platform.) I don't know
| what the solution is. Not sure how much of an improvement
| it is for privacy, but in terms of mental wellbeing, I
| find Discord to be more enjoyable and less addictive, but
| again, it's not really the same thing as Facebook.
| noirscape wrote:
| Because the problem isn't technical, it's well, human. As
| it turns out, when we're given a slight bit of anonymity
| (in the "my name and face aren't attached to this" sense,
| not in the "no consistent identity" sense, aka "crypto
| won't solve this either"), the barrier to being an
| asshole becomes significantly lower[0].
|
| Someone needs to moderate those spaces and Masnicks
| Theorem states that any form of content moderation at
| scale doesn't properly work[1] because nobody can agree
| on what "bad behavior" even is outside the blatantly
| obvious like automated spam. (And just to head this off -
| automated techniques like karma and "votes" sound great
| in theory but in practice enable all sorts of abuse. -
| the problem isn't technical and can't be technically
| solved.)
|
| The problem is simply scale - there's plenty of niche
| communities for various interests who are likely to not
| fall victim to the process due to either being non-profit
| or existing perpendicular to a business' actual revenue
| stream[2]. Those communities will keep existing until
| they simply burn out (the natural lifecycle) and the last
| couple mods just quietly close the place down.
|
| Twitter/Facebook/Reddit attempted to unnaturally
| cannabilize those communities by moving everything in
| their walled gardens (alongside a lucky break due to
| Tapatalk killing the ability for traditional forums to
| move to mobile) and then trying to extract money from
| them. Their state is honestly more unnatural than you'd
| think, but it's what most users gravitated towards.
|
| The closest we have right now as a solution to marry the
| self-managed forums of old with centralized services is
| the fediverse, but explaining it to people is often
| considered to be difficult enough that it probably won't
| grab mainstream appeal.
|
| And y'know... Maybe that's alright? Centralized social
| media that tries to appeal to everyone may just have been
| a mistake to begin with.
|
| [0]:
| https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InternetJerk
| (formerly known as GIFT or Greater Internet Fuckwad
| Theorem.)
|
| [1]: https://www.techdirt.com/2019/11/20/masnicks-
| impossibility-t...
|
| [2]: HN being the latter, mostly existing to market YC
| startups and because paulg wanted a discussion forum.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| >Because the problem isn't technical, it's well, human.
|
| I agree wholeheartedly. We are no longer at the point
| where the core end user services provided by
| FB/Reddit/Twitter require serious technical innovation.
| They require a massive amount of moderation though. And
| Reddit shows that there are volunteers out there who will
| do it for free, but they need to feel that they are
| valued and supported by the organization that runs the
| show.
|
| What better org structure to support volunteers than a
| non-profit?
| noirscape wrote:
| I mean, technically that's how most old-school forums
| operated in practice. You had one guy/girl who operated
| the entire thing, asked for maybe 100-200 bucks a year to
| keep the server lights on and the community would fund
| that and it'd stay in the air.
|
| The main problem is that I don't think a non-profit could
| realistically meet the cost required to actually run a
| platform like this. It's _really_ expensive to run a
| general purpose platform (not to mention difficult since
| Masnick 's Impossibility Theorem), to the point where I'd
| call it almost inherently unsustainable. It can work
| easily for smaller communities, it just won't work for
| massive ones.
|
| --
|
| To give you an idea, I've been a mod on-and-off on
| several communities for the past decade (not Reddit,
| mostly small Discord servers for homebrew projects and a
| couple of IRC chats) - for the most part, "being a mod"
| just translates to "check recent userlog to ban obvious
| spam, tell people to stop butting heads constantly, be
| welcoming to the newbies". If you think being a mod is
| enjoying power... well you might have only reddit/discord
| mods (and their bloated mod teams) for reference. In
| practice, you're closer to a kindergarten teacher than to
| the "landed gentry". Usually doesn't take more than 10
| minutes a day in experience, if the tooling you have is
| good enough.
|
| The problem is... the communities I moderated only had
| 2-3k users in total _at most_ , and only 30 or so were
| active at any one day. This is very much how smaller
| communities work (and should work) in practice. But...
| that doesn't even come close to the total userbase of
| something like Reddit, even less with platforms that
| don't at all segment their users like FB and Twitter.
| Those sites service millions of users each day and their
| larger communities have thousands of new posts to deal
| with every day. Reddit mostly mitigates it by splitting
| it up to volunteer mods who all control a smaller portion
| of that community, but with FB and Twitter it just...
| doesn't work since the platforms are opposed to such a
| notion by design since their entire selling point is
| "talk with everyone, everywhere, all at once".
|
| Moderation on such a platform just cannot work unless you
| pour as much cash into it as FB/Twitter (used) to do and
| no non-profit comes even close to that degree of income
| (nor can you really obtain it without becoming as
| privacy-invasive as those two platforms are). Reddit
| completely gave up on global moderation if I understand
| it correctly and now only bans users for breaking the law
| or if they risk damaging the PR of the company.
| flas9sd wrote:
| platforms create a two sided market, inflating their own
| value as middlemen and blackbox (if not publicly listed).
| What mastodon showed is: how high is the bill really? as
| in: given the opportunity, maybe users will foot the bill
| and having an incentive to optimize for cost.
|
| My only worry is a tragedy of the commons scenario.
| a4a4a4a4 wrote:
| I don't think any of the third part devs are asking for
| it to be free. The Apollo devs initial response to the
| announcement was "I'm honestly looking forward to the
| pricing and the stuff you're rolling out provided it's
| enough to keep me with a job. You guys seem nothing but
| reasonable, so I'm looking to finding out more." Then
| they announced pricing which is 29x the current revenue
| per user, and are blocking NSFW content from the API
| anyway.
|
| Latest update from him: https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloap
| p/comments/14dkqrw/i_want_t...
| FreshStart wrote:
| Actually a state actor might pick up that bill to own the
| access to the world's data without the constant churn of
| innovation dead social networks.
| nerdbert wrote:
| The issue isn't paying the bills. The issue is trying to
| reach to a huge IPO payday for the handful of people
| placed to cash out.
|
| If all they cared about were paying the server bills,
| there would be easy compromises to be made.
| mistermann wrote:
| > Reddit was a friend when Digg died. Any closed platform
| can do whatever they want whenever they want and as soon as
| they decide to start making money.
|
| Who was running Reddit back then?
|
| Leadership matters. Take climate change for example, or
| anything really.
| softsound wrote:
| Looking at who created Discord, I would agree. They will
| start selling data a lot and do other stuff when the
| numbers get big like they did with their other business but
| for now it's a smooth ride on freeness.
| bee_rider wrote:
| In my not so educated opinion, federated networks seem to
| be the way toward permanently fixing this issue. But, they
| don't seem to be quite ready yet.
|
| It is inevitable that Discord will also become terrible
| eventually, but they might be the last centralized social
| network.
| stingraycharles wrote:
| Federated social networks have been talked about for
| decades, I have yet to see it gain any traction. I'd be
| happy if I ever saw one taking off in my lifetime, but
| the economic incentives are just not there.
| ryathal wrote:
| I don't think federation is a good solution without a way
| to also centralize those communities. Discoverability and
| overlapping communities leads to way too much
| balkanization.
| 8note wrote:
| > Not. Your. Content.
|
| It is my content, but I've licensed it. The platform
| existing doesn't take away copyright law
| ornornor wrote:
| Okay yeah sure, technically. In practice, you have little
| to no control over it or your audience and good luck
| migrating it when you feel like it or when the platform
| turns hostile.
| aflag wrote:
| Discord already makes it very clear you don't own the data
| in the platform, but you do have a lot of freedom to
| moderate as you please.
| inhumantsar wrote:
| For now
| ipaddr wrote:
| Exactly same scene playing out with a different timeline.
| Anyone using discord and complaining about the reddit
| changes must be new to all of this
| noirbot wrote:
| Or we're very used to all of this and are relatively fine
| migrating to the next new place that is still in the
| "pretending to be good" phase. A social network isn't a
| bank or a house. I'm not using it with the assumption
| that I'll grow old and die still using it. When Discord
| gets bad, I'll move to something else. Or if Matrix or
| whatever else comes along and is a good option, I'll move
| to it just like I moved to Discord from TeamSpeak and the
| dying forum I was on.
| JeremyNT wrote:
| Yeah, it's quite strange. Not only in the fact that it's even
| more closed and walled off than Reddit (as you correctly note),
| but it's not even the same "type" - Discord is an IRC-type, not
| a newsgroup-type.
|
| It's just plain weird in the context of a reddit alternative.
| lawn wrote:
| And it doesn't make sense as Discord doesn't even work like
| Reddit does.
|
| With Reddit you have posts and comments, but with Discord you
| have an ongoing discussion. With Reddit communication is async,
| but with Discord it's live.
|
| I even use Discord, but the forum model is superior for almost
| all interactions I'm interested in.
| dsir wrote:
| I agree. While Discord brings some unique community tooling
| aspects to the table, it does not fit the forum model given
| the data is walled off.
|
| I've been working on a platform that's sort of like a
| Reddit/Discord/Patreon hybrid that combines the feature set
| of Discord with the discovery and threaded style of
| discussion of Reddit.
|
| Here's an example community:
|
| https://sociables.com/community/Sports/board/trending
| award_ wrote:
| I felt like this is what I am missing as well from many of
| these subs going to discord. It might make some sense for
| meme subs and such, but not for the vast majority of subs.
| vmfunction wrote:
| Sounds like Reddit need to have a RSS feed or rethink their
| business model. Maybe Reddit will just be a type of social
| benefiting site that doesn't rely on a business model. Don't
| know what the VCs that funded them will think though.
| Euphorbium wrote:
| Thats what tildes is.
| dorfsmay wrote:
| This is the first time I hear of https://tildes.net/!
|
| After a cursory look, it looks like what Reddit should have
| been and maybe where we all should move to.
| haunter wrote:
| >Sounds like Reddit need to have a RSS feed
|
| Reddit does have RSS feed for almost everything (posts,
| comments, users)
| amazing_stories wrote:
| I use RSS for Reddit and don't plan to ever log in again.
| This latest upheaval reminded me I was spending too much time
| there and after taking a break I've realized most of the
| content is garbage. Now Reddit is just another feed to a site
| I don't participate in (like the cesspool that is Slashdot).
| lost_tourist wrote:
| RSS is basically dead for the general populous, why would
| reddit need to rethink their business model based on RSS?
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| People like the Discord app, for now.
|
| Of course it will eventually go the same way new Reddit did and
| as every social media platform does.
| mrweasel wrote:
| Exactly, I have no beef with Discord, but it's the same
| funding model as the rest of them and that's the part that's
| broken.
|
| Reddit for its part could have contacted the 3. party
| developers and asked them to switch to a model where users
| authenticate with the API individually and billed the users
| of the apps individually if it's a cost issue. They didn't,
| because that's not actually the "problem" they are trying to
| fix.
|
| The majority of Reddit users don't care though, just as the
| Discord users don't care that search engines can't find the
| content. Louis Rossmann was right, the Reddit blackout is a
| joke and Reddit has already won. The people who are moving is
| the minority and perhaps not worth much in Reddits ad
| financed doom scrolling reality.
|
| It's a weird time where things that could be a service would
| rather sell ads, things that should be a standard alone
| products is a subscription and the products that used to be
| ad supported is dying because ads space is cheap.
| noirbot wrote:
| I do think Discord has a better story when it comes to it
| being able to monetize cleanly. They have clear and useful
| features to sell, and have done so decently successfully as
| far as I know.
|
| It's not to say that they won't get worse, but they seem to
| be starting from a better baseline understanding between
| them and their users about what's on offer. They've also
| just got a better baseline product and seem to be taking
| better care of it than Reddit ever did.
| Roark66 wrote:
| Exactly. I've been advocating for people to move their
| communities to self hosted servers for quite some time. At the
| end of the day reddit doesn't serve video. Hosting bills would
| be cheap and cheerful with as much API access as the community
| wants.
|
| But discord? Oh my!
| xmodem wrote:
| Discord's enshitifcation is going to be brutal.
| Tarq0n wrote:
| They took a lot of VC investment so it seems almost
| inevitable.
| chongli wrote:
| I don't think so. Discord is already enshitified enough that
| people won't rely on it to the same degree. For example,
| you'll never see people appending discord to random search
| queries because it's closed off to search engines anyway, so
| that doesn't do anything.
|
| As others have mentioned, discord is highly ephemeral, so you
| won't see people depend on it much as a repository of long-
| term knowledge. It's a chat server for throwaway discussions
| and meeting people for gaming.
| noirscape wrote:
| Hate to be the breaker of bad news, but a lot of niche
| libraries and communities (especially modding communities)
| have foregone documentation in favor of discord chats since
| they're keeping their message storage for a relatively long
| time.
|
| So it _is_ a problem.
| neolefty wrote:
| It could become as low quality as some of my SMS threads!
| [deleted]
| jml78 wrote:
| I have been on reddit since digg did their redesign. For the
| past many years I have only used the Apollo mobile app. I have
| zero desire to switch to the official app as it is awful.
|
| Apollo is reddit to me so instead, I will be hanging out here
| more and kbin.social
| HWR_14 wrote:
| Jumping away from Reddit is jumping off a sinking ship.
| Enshitification will continue and accelerate.
|
| Meanwhile, I have no idea why I care about discord content not
| being visible on search engines.
| dghughes wrote:
| Kinda have to laugh at the idea of r/Anarchism having to move and
| do they have a moderator? lol
| notrealyme123 wrote:
| Yes they have mods and iirc they picked them by popular vote.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| There should be a client that aggregates the entire thing and
| makes it look like a cohesive experience.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| I wish I could have the site scrape my user page for the list of
| subreddits I am/was subscribed to. (This would be easy with the
| API, of course, but...)
| self_awareness wrote:
| I find it hilarious that people think it's a great idea to
| migrate from Reddit to Discord.
| thih9 wrote:
| I like that there is an option to filter by official communities.
|
| Feature request: sorting by number of subscribers.
| sigio wrote:
| So, feature request: make sub.rehab/r/something... redirect to
| the new location of the reddit ;)
| wffurr wrote:
| Now we just need a search engine replacement for Google with
| site:reddit.com ...
| damontal wrote:
| This list is not accurate. The gaming subreddit is still on
| Reddit. It hasn't relocated.
| hellweaver666 wrote:
| the subreddit still exists (even if Mods removed it, Admins
| would recreate) but the communities are at least _partially_
| moving to the Fediverse.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| yeah, this feels like a list of people trying to move a sub but
| people aren't moving just because they tried. I checked the
| 'new home' of AITA, and the last submission was 9 days ago.
| aprilnya wrote:
| Only the links with a checkmark are official and from the mods
| of the subreddit.
| Paul-Craft wrote:
| I'm surprised. There are some pretty large and visible subs on
| this list.
|
| Does anybody know if there's anything like a Lemmy + kbin client
| that could connect to these multiple fora and build a feed that
| looks somewhat like what you'd see on Reddit? These individual
| instances remind me a lot of old forums, which is great, but what
| I like (liked?) about Reddit was having the ability to subscribe
| to multiple, high quality subreddits and have them all in a
| single feed.
| Tmpod wrote:
| There's someone working on this interesting project.[1] It's a
| Lemmy<->Reddit proxy that translates requests between the two
| APIs so you can use Reddit apps to browse Lemmy. If it gets
| some traction, it will be a great tool for helping new people
| coming from Reddit to settle in.
| mdaniel wrote:
| I think you [1] a link
| ryathal wrote:
| There's a handful of apps that exist for phones, I use Jerboa
| at the moment. It's easy enough to get a feed of all subscribed
| communities, but subscribing is a bit of a pain every way I've
| tried, and most communities aren't active enough to get a good
| feed like you can with Reddit. Part of the problem is that most
| the popular instances of Lemmy are getting bombarded with
| traffic and availability isn't great. Just hitting subscribe
| doesn't always work, which is likely related to server health
| as many instances haven't let people log in or sign up
| periodically.
|
| There's also some defederation issues, so you may need several
| accounts and then stich them all into one feed to truly get
| everything you want, but I've not attempted that.
| sen wrote:
| Most of the large subs I see in this list haven't actually
| "moved". These new sites linked have very little (if any)
| content and the subs themselves are still very active.
|
| Some of them seem legit, but a majority of what I clicked seem
| like random people trying to ride the drama and make their own
| spin-offs.
| volongoto wrote:
| Even though it's possible to subscribe across instances, I
| think it would make the most sense if there was a single UI
| that the user can configure like an RSS reader that would bring
| relevant content from those the user has subscribed to. The
| user could then read and comment from within the tool (using
| whichever account they choose).
| Wingy wrote:
| Yeah you can subscribe to any lemmy or kbin community from any
| lemmy or kbin instance!
| SAI_Peregrinus wrote:
| No you can't. If the community is hosted on an instance that
| doesn't federate with the one you have an account on, you
| can't interact with that community.
| tomstockmail wrote:
| You can also follow Kbin Magazines and Lemmy Communities
| (subreddit) from Mastodon. They are Groups on Mastodon. I am
| not sure about posting a top level, but I can comment.
| volongoto wrote:
| Is there a guide to do this for dummies? Subscribing is one
| thing, but is it possible to "comment" on another instance's
| community?
|
| Edit: Figured out myself. It wasn't that difficult :) I agree
| with others that this needs to be mentioned more often. But,
| when I searched for "dotnet" in lemmy.world, it didn't return
| "https://kbin.social/m/dotnet" as one of the search results.
| Is this due to defederation? Is there a way to add a
| community using a unique identifier instead of searching for
| it?
| wccrawford wrote:
| You can search local communities, or all communities. If
| someone else has previously searched and found the remote
| community you're looking for, it'll appear immediately. If
| they haven't, you need to already know the url (or short
| alias) for that community, and search for that... And then
| it'll take a while to federate, and then anyone can find it
| with an easy search from there.
|
| It's kind of complicated, but is only a problem for new
| instances and new communities. After everything is
| established, it'll be a lot easier.
| volongoto wrote:
| I tried to search with the full URL and it didn't show
| up. That's why I thought it wasn't the way to do it. But
| I can now see it when I search for it. So, you are right,
| it takes some time.
| wccrawford wrote:
| Yeah, that's incredibly unintuitive, and I only know it
| works that way because I've seen a few people say it
| does.
|
| I expect the software will continue to improve, though,
| so these rough edges will eventually be taken care of. I
| hope. :D
| nicce wrote:
| Somehow people should be made more aware of this. You need
| just one account and it does not matter where you create it
| as long as you can trust that the server stays up.
| jml78 wrote:
| That isn't 100%. Instances can be blocked from federating.
| For instance if you are on lemmy.world you are no longer
| getting beehive posts because beehive disabled federation
| with lemmy.world
|
| I think kbin has the best interface and I am hoping they
| get "multireddits" implemented soon so you can combine
| communities from multiple servers into a single view
| IggleSniggle wrote:
| They all interconnect. You can even send/get kbin/Lemmy content
| with mastodon! They all use the same decentralized ActivityPub
| protocol.
| neuronic wrote:
| Technically true but incorrect in the real world. Several
| services already blocked federation between each other, like
| beehive and lemmy.world
| chrischen wrote:
| Instead of api business model reddit should have blocked google
| indexing like Facebook does and force everyone to use reddit
| search and then show ads in search results rather than forcing
| people to go to google and append "reddit" to the end of search
| results which i had been doing for something like 99% of my
| commercial searches. Google has been eating reddit's lunch... not
| random third party apps like Apollo.
| Yujf wrote:
| No, if reddit does that they lose a giant amount of traffic.
| And reddit search sucks they should improve it first if they
| want that. But also for many things you do not necessarily
| search for reddit but just search a question and reddit turns
| up in search results. If that goes away, reddit will have less
| visits and become way less usefull for many things
| chrischen wrote:
| Honestly the traffic reddit gets from google is probably <<
| traffic from organic reddit users. Even for myself as a non-
| Reddit user I intentionally search Reddit through Google.
| What you say holds true for smaller sites, but there's a
| reason Facebook blocks Google indexing (for the most part),
| and it's because Facebook wants people to be using Facebook,
| not Google. Even if Reddit loses some search traffic they
| shouldn't be giving up that control. It's not like people
| don't know what reddit is, or that the app isn't sticky (it's
| obviously very sticky).
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| >the traffic reddit gets from google is probably << traffic
| from organic reddit users.
|
| I question "<<" at this point. Maybe "<", but the gap isn't
| as large as you expect.
|
| It's not going to be as impactful as r/all being removed,
| but removing google searchability would probaly do more
| harm to traffic than it does benefit to the site.
|
| >here's a reason Facebook blocks Google indexing (for the
| most part), and it's because Facebook wants people to be
| using Facebook, not Google.
|
| I think it's more because Facebook is an inherently more
| private site. It has public groups but Facebook wasn't made
| (by default) to have every post you make be searchable from
| Google.
|
| You search on Facebook for people, and you care about who
| they are. You search for content on reddit and don't care
| who redditors are.
| CommitSyn wrote:
| They could combine it with the newspaper model and show 3
| open posts to unregistered members before asking them to
| register. That way Google still allows full indexing.
| OhHiMarkos wrote:
| This is a great idea and I think I heard a few good ideas and
| even thought of my self a few, about how Reddit could be more
| profitable. Which is weird, why they went with the API model.
| It's really suspicious. It's like they want to raise its value
| fast and dump it. It really looks like the want to sell Reddit.
| ipaddr wrote:
| You would block google traffic causing the site to drop to
| 20% traffic over asking power users to pay for api access?
| chrischen wrote:
| Better than what they are doing now risking losing 80% of
| traffic. I mean, blocking Google has costs, but the
| argument here is the gain of control and revenue makes up
| for it. Blocking Google is also more of a concern for
| smaller brands and sites, but Reddit is probably
| Facebook/Instagram level of users (at least in the US).
| Most of reddit's traffic is probably coming from retained
| users, shared links and social media, not random searches.
| dorfsmay wrote:
| Or just force API users to publish ads the same way they
| publish normal threads.
|
| I've used the old.reddit site and ads don't really bother me.
| On the other hand I've often found the solution to a problem on
| Google pointing to a Reddit post.
| Mizoguchi wrote:
| So we have Reddit, a for profit company controlled by a media
| corporation, asking other smaller for profit companies making
| millions out of Reddit's API to pay for access, then somehow
| moderators go on strike? This makes no sense to me. Like what
| will prevent these subreddits to be back online with new
| moderators? Do the majority of Reddit's user base even care about
| what's going on?
| gremlinsinc wrote:
| the mods and power users must fed up with Reddit probably
| contribute 80 percent of the content, even if they are a
| minority. Without content what exactly is Reddit? nobody will
| fill this void because of the nature of a lot of these subs. I
| mean you really gotta be obsessive a little to continuously
| moderate weird niche subs like birds aren't real.
|
| A lot of subs will probably switch to bare minimum policing,
| which is to say only site wide rules which basically turns
| every sub into a free for all like /r/worldpolitics.
|
| You think it's easy to replace 4 to 10 moderators across 8000
| subreddits? I sure you, it most definitely is not.
| Wissenschafter wrote:
| Honestly pretty funny how the mods are throwing a fit. The
| changes where the community can vote out mods is great.
| jerf wrote:
| A major problem Reddit has is that if they go down that
| route, a "community" will become "the set of people who
| clicked 'join'". That isn't a very strong definition of
| "community" to build things like voting mods in and out on.
|
| Right now the mods are the only source of continuity within
| a community. Let people vote and you get mod vote brigades,
| and a realistic chance that every major sub on the site
| becomes /r/politics, regardless of what letters follow the
| /r/ in the URL, because everyone will vote out anyone who
| tries to prevent it.
|
| The other thing too is that the _entire purpose_ of a mod
| is basically to make enemies. The angry people, the
| unpleasant people, the very people you want them to tone
| down or ban are also the ones who will vote with maximum
| vigor. And bot nets, slander campaigns, personal threats,
| these are the people who have no lines. As a moderator
| myself, who does it for my own reasons, if I had to
| "defend" my moderation powers against a community slander
| campaign I wouldn't so much as lift a finger. I may well
| just make the ringleader a mod on my way out. I have no
| motivation to fight that fight. And if that's kind of what
| you want to hear from your moderator, rather than having a
| moderator who actually will engage in a community
| reputational deathmatch to keep their powers, you probably
| shouldn't encourage a structure that will even further
| reify needing to spend a ton of energy in politics just to
| keep their janitorial position.
|
| I think Reddit could survive simply removing the mods &
| replacing them. I won't guarantee thriving, and it may not
| _economically_ survive, but some number of users would
| still keep going. I think making it so communities can vote
| out mods (and probably by a simple majority vote of those
| who bother to vote, as is the American Way) actually would
| kill them, because of the second- and higher order effects
| of that change. The end result of the Mod Wars of 2023
| would be the metaphorical equivalent of the Sahara Desert I
| referred to in an earlier post [1]. The only people who
| would persist in such an environment are exactly the ones
| that you want moderators to remove.
|
| [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36360696
| detuur wrote:
| Be careful what you wish for. SomethingAwful voted out its
| mods and it went to shit _very_ quickly after. It's very
| hard to find mods who actually care about a community. Many
| of the very best communities on Reddit are very strictly
| moderated because the sad reality is that the vast majority
| of contributions are shit. If you end up in SA's situation,
| where strict moderation lead to many users having had at
| least one negative experience with mods, users might get
| the idea they know better than the mods how to run their
| community and any mod who actually curates the
| contributions runs the risk of getting votekicked.
|
| That being said, treating mods as some kind of tenured
| position has lead to plenty of abuse as well. Altogether
| it's going to be a thin line for everyone involved to tread
| in order to keep these communities intact through all of
| this.
| coding123 wrote:
| Something Awful was purchased by someone, it went to shit
| because of that.
| denvrede wrote:
| At this point, if you want to be part of the discussion, please
| do your own research on the topic and try to understand the
| situation. It's explained multiple times in every news that
| comes up regarding Reddit (also in this one).
| coding123 wrote:
| what I saw was an app writer that said his monthly cost per
| user would be $3, and gave no explanation for why instead of
| shutting down he wouldn't just charge each user $3 per month
| (plus a fee)
| OnlyLys wrote:
| The developer of Apollo explains it in detail here:
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/13/23759180/reddit-
| protest-p...
| bhouston wrote:
| kbin.social is pretty good, love the interface. It appears though
| that I can not upload images to it yet -- it says it is disabled
| for some reason? A little confused about.
|
| I was trying to contribute to
| https://kbin.social/m/astrophotography
| Kiro wrote:
| This should include the most obvious migration target: other
| subreddits.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| So nothing of value was ever lost.
|
| Every mod who decided to attempt to move a sub has now been shown
| exactly how much their "power" is actually worth, and has been
| instructed to either comply or lose their moderation rights.
|
| The result is that they're complying, because this never had
| anything to do with a third party API. They just wanted to be
| seen participating in something.
| goda90 wrote:
| I think I had this idea about YouTube originally, but it could
| theoretically be applied to Reddit as well. A way to smooth the
| transition to a new platform could be to have a system that
| copies the posts automatically from the old one, and gives the
| account owner on the old system the option to claim the copied
| content for their new user on the new site.
|
| Legal issues would probably make it a non-starter though.
| worrycue wrote:
| Speaking of YouTube, I wonder if Google will get into the game.
|
| The recent blackout has shown that Google search is kind of
| reliant on Reddit - a lot of top links go to Reddit. I mean
| Google Search will adapt if Reddit vanishes but why deal with
| Reddit as a middle man at all?
|
| Google can start its own "Reddit". They already have scalable
| forum software in the form of the YouTube comment system. Heck,
| they can even copy YouTube's operating philosophy:
|
| - poster of content moderates their own content's comment
| section; reduce concentration of power in the hands of a few
| mods
|
| - comments have a score, users don't; avoids the Black Mirror
| episode "Nosedive" scenario (
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror) )
|
| - frontpage is controlled by algorithm; no "subreddits"
|
| - downvotes are hidden to everyone include the user being
| downvoted
|
| They will make money by displaying ads as usual - serving text
| has got to be way way cheaper than video.
| nerdbert wrote:
| - and then they will discontinue it after four years even
| though hundreds of millions of people are using it happily
| moneywoes wrote:
| Didn't google plus have communities
| timetraveller26 wrote:
| Only to kill it a year later probably
| plastic3169 wrote:
| That's why I think now that it might be even more important to
| have user generated content under more friendly license than to
| have federated systems even. I would be happy to sign up to
| centralized system that lets users grab their posts and leave
| if necessary.
| awinter-py wrote:
| why is there a rehab tld
| mdaniel wrote:
| My understanding is that anyone who thinks they can sell
| domains for more than the $185k(?) it costs to create one is a
| winning strategy. I don't know if there are any ICANN renewal
| costs, such that a gTLD could actually _go bankrupt_
| lom888 wrote:
| A few subs like r/themotte and r/drama moved offsite and self-
| hosted before this current kerfuffle, does anyone know of others
| of the same ilk?
| yewenjie wrote:
| Lemmy is actually surprisingly fast? I mean, it feels way faster
| than both Twitter and Reddit, despite being federated.
| seydor wrote:
| I suppose there is also a list of people who moved to Canada.
|
| It is unfortunate that reddit search sucks so much that users
| can't find alternative subreddits
| WA wrote:
| Check Reddark, which was posted here about a week ago. Most subs
| are public again: https://reddark.untone.uk/
|
| I don't think any significant subs went anywhere at all.
| pimterry wrote:
| That shows 39% as still fully dark, but large numbers of the
| 'public' subs that have opened up are doing malicious
| compliance, e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/
| https://www.reddit.com/r/aww/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/Art/
| are some of the biggest subreddits on the site, and all now
| exclusively for John Oliver pictures only, while quite a few
| others like https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/ have
| gone full NSFW (meaning although they're public Reddit can't
| show ads).
| NekkoDroid wrote:
| > (meaning although they're public Reddit can't show ads)
|
| Slight correction: they can't show targeted ads
| midasz wrote:
| I'm just a big fan of ActivityPub. It seems like the next logical
| step. Perhaps there'll be bigger ActivityPub providers in the
| future but in theory, just like SMTP, I can talk from my thingy
| to your thingy. It's up to us to abstract the protocol away and
| make it easier for users.
| nerdponx wrote:
| What I find interesting is that we are in the middle of A
| tremendous social experiment where two of the biggest closed
| platforms on the web recently took major steps to push away and
| alienate their users, leaving federated platforms as an
| enticing alternative. It's been very interesting to see who did
| and did not migrate, and what the growing pains have been as,
| for the first time that I know of, actual normies tried out
| some weird open source hacker shit en masse.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| > It's been very interesting to see who did and did not
| migrate
|
| The people who migrate are basically the people in the
| intersection of technically inclined, "we need social media,"
| and "big tech is bad."
|
| I think having a protocol that can be abstracted away to meet
| user needs is a great idea. But as it currently exists,
| Mastodon will always be niche. Too many weird tradeoffs that
| can only be forgiven by passionate advocates who understand
| their technical roots. Perhaps there is further development
| to the protocol or abstraction that can change this, but as
| it stands, Mastodon is only for passionate social media users
| who are technically inclined and resentful against big tech.
| digging wrote:
| This is unfortunately always going to be true of any
| technology. If there's someone willing to cut corners for
| convenience, they will win the majority of the audience
| with even a small amount of competence. And by cut corners,
| I mean betray and abuse and exploit their users. Quality
| (in security, in privacy, in functionality) creates
| friction, even if it's minor, and animals generally take
| the path of least resistance.
| elzbardico wrote:
| "en masse" is definitely an exaggeration. This was mostly
| wishful thinking plus lots of astroturfing from journalists
| trying to stick it up to Elon Musk. It never amounted to much
| in reality.
| nerdponx wrote:
| It was pretty big increase in interest and public
| visibility for something that most people don't normally
| know or care about. I make no claims about how many people
| actually started using these platforms or are still using
| them after a couple of months.
| goatlover wrote:
| What percentage counts as "en masse"?
| rajamaka wrote:
| And then immediately returned to Twitter for the most part
| nerdponx wrote:
| That's part of what makes the experiment so interesting!
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| Twitter is harder to move off of because so many companies
| use it to report news. celebrities, media, even governments
| now deliver news on Twitter. Those entities were never
| going to care about small squabbles.
|
| Reddit, not so much. Not that I don't think a lot won't
| simply go back, but a lot more people will probably leave,
| maybe even enough to create a network effect to begin the
| sparks for a new, proper competitor.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Heavily dependent on the circles one's part of in my
| experience. Everybody I followed when I moved to mastodon
| several months ago (mostly devs, apple users, and a few
| designers) are still there, actively post, and have no
| plans to return.
| Pathogen-David wrote:
| I've had a similar experience, except in my case a bunch
| of the bigger posters found they no longer automatically
| got a ton of attention on Mastodon and without that
| dopamine feedback loop they just gave up microblogging
| entirely.
|
| Most artists I follow also just dropped Twitter entirely
| and are on Instagram exclusively now (much to my dismay,
| the Instagram UI is nails on chalkboard to me.)
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| It's interesting how differently the experience has
| turned out for different crowds.
|
| I've seen numerous anecdotes from more technically-
| inclined types saying that their Mastodon posts not only
| get greater engagement than their Twitter posts did, but
| that the average quality of engagement is much higher and
| closer to an actual conversation.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| I imagine it depends on how much you played the advert
| game. While twitter is massive, it is very easy to get
| buried if you don't play by their rules. Techy posters
| are the antithesis of that algorithm: focused on text
| more than pictures, trying to deliver links to non-
| mainstream sites or personal blogs, rebelling against
| authority, probably sparse in their use of hashes.
|
| So I can see a more intimate setting benefitting them
| more than a more traditional content creator who is
| already used to all those hoops.
| dorfsmay wrote:
| This has been my exact experience!
| mjhagen wrote:
| Same, but I'm in the same circles :)
| a_bonobo wrote:
| and just like SMTP, will be slightly extended by large
| companies until the small guy can't keep up any more (or are
| there still people running smaller email servers that can talk
| with Google Mail?), then taken over, then (eventually?)
| extinguished
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
| supportlocal4h wrote:
| I think it would be super interesting if there became a GMail
| of Matrix--one super-dominant provider--but it was still
| possible to have Fastmail and Protonmail etc of Matrix. So
| you could actually still host your own little community that
| could still interact with the giant gorilla even if it was
| challenging to do so. Imagine that whichever federated
| protocol were extended with spam-blocking features that
| complicated federation such that it was even harder to run a
| server than it is today. But it was still possible,
| especially for those with enough money.
|
| So every once in a while a newcomer like TikTok could blow up
| and become a fad, but some old grandma could just keep
| plugging away on their hilariously old-school service and
| still follow their granddaughter's high school swim team
| hosted on the hip new shiny service all the kids are going
| for today.
| moffkalast wrote:
| > ActivityPub is an open, decentralized social networking
| protocol
|
| Ah it's one of those pipe dreams that runs like molasses and
| can't be explained to an average person before they die of
| boredom.
| neardeaf wrote:
| Yeah this pisses me off because the ADHD Lemmy community lives on
| lemmy.world , but I'm signed up to beehaw, which recently
| announced they're "de-federating" from lemmy.world and
| sh.itjust.works for reasons... and now I have to keep multiple
| accounts with hopefully my same online handle just to see all my
| communities I'm subscribed to in a single feed like Reddit does?
| Ugh... fucking headache. Or run my own lemmy instance? I don't
| want to do that... I want a "front page to the internet."
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| > now I have to keep multiple accounts with hopefully my same
| online handle just to see all my communities I'm subscribed to
| in a single feed like Reddit does?
|
| better than losing literally everything because beehaw shut
| down. I already manage multiple accounts for multiple types of
| communities (including HN), at least the interfaces between
| these sites are somewhat similar and under a common protocol.
|
| >I want a "front page to the internet."
|
| I'd rather not have all my eggs in one basket at this point.
|
| But this did oddly remind me of RSS feeds, which were meant to
| do all this. Minus the modern UI, of course. Do these federated
| communities support RSS?
| neardeaf wrote:
| That's a really good point actually. I'd definitely take the
| time to setup RSS feeds for each thing if it gave me the sort
| of experience I'm after. I'll miss the comments sections
| though since that's where a ton of golden information from
| Reddit came from.
| Havoc wrote:
| Surprised to see bigger subs moving to BOTH kbin and lemmy. Could
| someone articulate the rationale behind that?
| HWR_14 wrote:
| Establish a presence on both services. In a year deprecate the
| one that didn't win via network effects.
| jasonjayr wrote:
| With lemmy though, the fediverse is the network. One can
| subscribe/interact with the other. The real hedge is which
| 'home' instance is going to be more stable.
| Havoc wrote:
| I see. Risky play splitting it during the shaky reddit
| migration though.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| Well, if you assume splitting it means splitting your
| community, it's risky. If you assume splitting it means
| maintaining both while waiting to see which wins the
| majority of the exodus, it's less risky but more expensive.
| vaughan wrote:
| Good idea. As an extension, I would love a directory of all
| communities online. Something Yahoo-esque. I often have trouble
| finding the right place to ask a question or discuss a topic.
| jensgk wrote:
| Wouldn't it be better if there was a Wikipedia page, that would
| track where big communities (currently) resides?
|
| Eg. former "/r/thiscommunity" now resides on "XXX" and "YYY"
| former "slashdot.org" now resides on "news.ycombinator.com" and
| "lobste.rs" or something like that.
| haunter wrote:
| I don't get this list
|
| /r/3DS is active and not moving. The Discord is there for years.
| The lemmy instance is not affiliated with the sub (and it has 0
| activity compared to the sub)
|
| The kbin AITA has only 2 posts from a week ago. While the main
| sub is still alive and active with thousands of comments on each
| posts
|
| etc.
|
| Feels like this a site for showing alternatives to the subs not
| "where Reddit communities have relocated" which is very
| misleading
| taude wrote:
| Yuep, some I follow on that list are still quite active on
| Reddit. I see no reason to leave and lose the convenience of
| discoverability, single-side on, single app, searchability,
| etc...
| mistermann wrote:
| "All is fair in love and war."
| Zak wrote:
| I think it's better thought of as _alternatives_ than
| _replacements_.
|
| It has an "official" badge for alternatives that have been
| somehow endorsed by the moderators (or old moderators in the
| case of removals) of a subreddit. In the case of /r/3DS, the
| Discord is marked official and the Lemmy community is not.
| mjhagen wrote:
| It's at least part of a community that's moving.
| David_SQOX wrote:
| I agree. I'm not aware of a single sub that has wholesale moved
| to a lemmy instance. There's def a big increase in fediverse
| usage, but to say entire communities have migrated already is
| beyond hyperbole, it's just marketing speak.
| dvngnt_ wrote:
| startrek, piracy are two that have migrated
| goatlover wrote:
| There are new posts and comments in both subreddits. How
| can you migrate a sub when other people on reddit can still
| use it?
| evilkorn wrote:
| No subreddit can fully move. Reddit is too popular for
| everyone to leave. A mod can start a new place but if
| they threaten the the sub itself like going private or
| not allowing posts the company can just open it with new
| mods.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| >How can you migrate a sub when other people on reddit
| can still use it?
|
| there were still people on Digg for over a decade after
| the "digg migration". I think you're taking the term a
| bit too literally.
|
| besides, migrations in software work the same way. You
| don't cold turkey drop the old tools. You make bridges,
| start weaning people on new tools, and phase out the old.
| That's the concept behind deprecation models.
| tourmalinetaco wrote:
| Supposedly a good handful of piracy subs have motioned for
| movements due to takeovers by Reddit, though thats the only
| community I know of so far.
| [deleted]
| avree wrote:
| Discord has lower API limits and zero "3rd party apps" so the
| fact that it's the recommended darling child of people fleeing
| reddit because of "low API limits" and "them taking away 3rd
| party apps" makes zero sense.
|
| The "Lemmy" thing is even worse; a complete mess. For example,
| /r/aww has two different links, with different content, etc.
| And yes, I understand how the "fediverse" works, it just makes
| no sense in the context that most consumers want their media
| in.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| You can use discord via a matrix bridge though, thus using it
| via another app. If I have to use discord I do it this way.
| gs17 wrote:
| > Discord has [...] zero "3rd party apps"
|
| Most people don't want third party Reddit apps because they
| inherently like third party apps (some people do want FOSS
| apps, but that's the minority). People largely want third
| party apps because the first party app is terrible.
| avree wrote:
| Is it terrible? I know everyone says it is, but for example
| on iOS it has a 4.8 rating over 2.8M reviews. Apollo, the
| really popular 3rd party client, has a 4.7 rating over 170K
| reviews.
|
| So, clearly someone likes the Reddit app, right? Those
| millions of 5 star reviews are definitely not fake/bought.
| dustypotato wrote:
| Tbh, I find the official app very easy to use
| BossingAround wrote:
| Might be an android thing, but the reddit app keeps
| malfunctioning for me. For example, very common behavior
| is that I click on a post, and nothing happens. I click
| on the post again, nothing happens. I start scrolling,
| and after 30-60s, the post I clicked on finally opens
| twice (so to get out of it, I have to press "back"
| twice).
|
| The Reddit app, for me, is garbage. I am surprised it's
| not better; it feels like the devs aren't really using
| it.
| x86x87 wrote:
| [flagged]
| gs17 wrote:
| See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36358408 for
| people questioning the reviews.
| berkle4455 wrote:
| > Those millions of 5 star reviews are definitely not
| fake/bought
|
| definitely
| revscat wrote:
| Is this sarcasm? It's hard to tell sometimes.
| enw wrote:
| I don't use Reddit much anymore, but I liked the official
| app. Curious what's considered bad about it?
| Shaanie wrote:
| Have you used any alternative? The biggest issue is
| visual noise and ads imo.
| mock-possum wrote:
| I mean inlined ads for one thing - we're talking paid
| marketing posts masquerading as user-created content,
| some of which are utterly obnoxious (e.g. the 'he gets
| us' jesus ads)
| LeonenTheDK wrote:
| In my experience it's the instability (YMMV on that, for
| me in manifested in videos not working more than they
| did, heavy stuttering while scrolling. Not issues I have
| in RIF), low content density, significant number of
| trackers. Obviously I don't like all the ads being shoved
| in the middle of my feed, but I'm not against
| monetization.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| Same as the redesign, it's optimized for consuming images
| in a platform I came to to read discussions. And it does
| a horrible job facilitating text for long form
| discussion. It's trying to be instagram, I don't want
| instagram.
|
| Also, I don't think it's at all controversial to suggest
| the video player is one of the worst I've used. I dread
| trying to load up native videos on desktop (new or old
| design), I can't imagine it being better on the app.
|
| ----
|
| those are the biggest issues that will never be
| reconciled. Others include features you probably don't
| care about unless you're a power user. Ability to filter
| posts/users. favoriting certain subs, various mod tools
| that STILL have no alternative (even on desktop), proper
| responsive design for tablets, an actual other
| discussions option, visible flairs etc. I could go on all
| day with nitpicks (each of which I requested to reddit at
| some point years ago. Some of which were promised but
| never realized).
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Third-party apps were first. Reddit bought Alien Blue in
| 2016 IIRC, a reasonably mature third-party app, to turn it
| into their official app and promote it very aggressively in
| mobile browsers.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| yes, and they did a horrible job of that. And instead of
| listening to feedback to improve the app (some
| improvements of which mods rely on to do their free
| labor) they aquired and then butchered, they reduce
| choices.
|
| Not surprised at all this angers the power users.
| thewataccount wrote:
| Sure, but discord gives you no other option.
|
| There is an api you can use to make a third party client,
| last I saw it's actually just the same as the bot api but
| you just identify as a "human" instead.
|
| Users risk getting banned for "self botting" if you do this
| though. AFAIK there is no option to pay to do this either.
| gs17 wrote:
| They give you one option, but people _like_ that option.
| It isn 't annoying, it isn't buggy, and it works roughly
| as well as the web interface (which you can also use on
| mobile).
| ouid wrote:
| [dead]
| Zak wrote:
| > _I understand how the "fediverse" works, it just makes no
| sense in the context that most consumers want their media in.
| _
|
| There are several different use cases for Reddit. One is low-
| value media consumption, similar to TikTok and the primary
| usage of Instagram. /r/aww is that sort of thing. New.reddit
| and the Reddit app are optimized for this use case, and
| you're probably right that any friction between the viewer
| and the next picture of a cat being cute will reduce
| engagement considerably.
|
| Another is discussion forums around a common interest, often
| a niche interest. The small fraction of users who post
| original content and answer difficult questions are a big
| driver for these kinds of communities. When those kinds of
| people decide that Reddit is no longer acceptable,
| communities built there will wither. If those people move to
| Lemmy, people will put up with a bit of friction to follow
| them.
| revscat wrote:
| I would politely remind you that people, myself included, are
| fully cognizant of everything you have said but are still
| switching away from Reddit. You may want to take a minute to
| think about why that is, without sarcasm or the presumption
| of stupidity.
| avree wrote:
| I understand that you folks are upset that the market has
| shifted and advertisers and investors are no longer able to
| prop up companies running at a loss anymore.
|
| Twitter is charging for their API, Reddit is charging for
| their API, and people don't like change. I'm not sure where
| I've had "sarcasm or the presumption of stupidity" but that
| was certainly a strange section to add to your comment.
| revscat wrote:
| It's pretty apparent you do not, in fact, understand,
| since nothing you have said resembles reality, but rather
| lazy strawmen.
|
| It is almost universally understood that no business can
| operate at a loss, inducing by those who are moving away
| from Reddit. That you cannot understand this is the
| "presumption of idiocy" that was mentioned.
| ryantgtg wrote:
| What a take. Advertisers are no longer "willing", not
| "able", to prop up Twitter at the moment.
|
| Most people believe that charging for the APIs is
| reasonable. You might be missing the primary arguments
| going on about egregious costs and unreasonable (and
| often unexplained) timelines.
| avree wrote:
| I moderate several subreddits and have written my own
| apps/bots that perform various functions, such as
| updating CSS flair based on a remote set of changing
| assets, monitoring posts, etc.
|
| I am quite okay with the planned API costs, timeline, and
| communication. How were you affected by the changes? I
| read the Apollo guy's posts, but the reality is that he
| had built a very, very profitable business serving
| Reddit's content to the masses.
| philote wrote:
| So as a moderator, you're ok with having to pay to better
| do your unpaid moderation duties?
|
| Edit: Also, I'm curious how much you'd be paying.
| edgyquant wrote:
| A moderator is a volunteer position that people do
| because they want to run a community. It is not "unpaid"
| labor, and moderators acting like they're doing anyone
| favors is ridiculous. If it's too much work for you to do
| for free then step down and tons of people from the
| community will step up.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| >A moderator is a volunteer position that people do
| because they want to run a community.
|
| in the same way Spec work is a "volunteer position",
| sure.
|
| > It is not "unpaid" labor, and moderators acting like
| they're doing anyone favors is ridiculous.
|
| I'd love for the mods to walk and show how correct they
| are.
|
| >tons of people from the community will step up.
|
| yes, because reddit never complained about power tripping
| users eager to be in a position of authority and praise
| how they make the site a better place. Surely hiring one
| of those in the midsts of a revolt is the best scenario.
| edgyquant wrote:
| If the mods walk Reddit will be just fine. If Reddit
| removes them, most of these mods won't end up back in
| positions of power, some over hundreds of thousands of
| people. It's the mods who need Reddit not vice-a-versa
|
| I'm sorry you're upset about this, but mods are just
| users who enjoy running communities (or worse, are paid
| by an org to curate some mentality.) They are not Reddit
| employees nor do they improve reddits bottom line. They
| are just users of a platform, but unlike general users
| they are the one demographic it's easy to replace since
| users tend to think they can do better by default.
| secondcoming wrote:
| How is it different to people contributing to Open Source
| software in their free time?
| revscat wrote:
| It's not, and in OS communities when there is a
| disagreement, or people do not like the decisions made by
| core contributors, then people make their displeasure
| known. And if these problems aren't addressed to their
| satisfaction then they take that as an opportunity to
| leave.
| eageroryx wrote:
| Open source is generally not a private company with
| shareholders.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| Reddit hasn't been open source for a decade. So, the
| "open source" part?
|
| If someone really likes my project but really hates me
| (or vice versa) you can fork my project and keep going.
| Take all the progress I contributed to and make your own
| ball.
|
| Reddit, not so much. Maybe you can clone the high level
| design, but the people wont follow. It's not like OS
| where contributers are well, contributing. Most of the
| audience is passive browsers.
| avree wrote:
| Reddit's API is free for my use cases. From their
| documentation: "Our API allows free access to moderators
| and developers creating these tools for non-commercial
| use cases."
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| >I am quite okay with the planned API costs, timeline,
| and communication. How were you affected by the changes?
|
| Every app of choice I'd use for reddit is shutting down
| in a week. I don't like the supposedly official app.
|
| I already disdained reddit for several reasons over the
| years and this is the camel that broke the straw. I have
| no issues paying for good service (I bought a
| SomethingAwful account over a decade ago, and I donate to
| Tildes) and I don't think reddit is a good service, in
| its platform, its community, nor its general paradigms.
| It is not moving in a direction that I want to support.
| If that means a lonely migration to a new community, so
| be it. Not the first time, won't be the last.
|
| >but the reality is that he had built a very, very
| profitable business serving Reddit's content to the
| masses.
|
| and reddit didn't benefit from that free labor at all.
|
| This is always such a weird angle to take. That some dude
| paid 2 other people part time and hes stealing from a
| billion dollar coporation who employs 2000 people as is.
| Shocker that one is profitable and the other struggles.
|
| >uch as updating CSS flair based on a remote set of
| changing assets
|
| yeah, remember when reddit said it would implement native
| flairing? Glad you did that work for them (likely built
| on the work of others' free labor).
| waboremo wrote:
| How can you be a moderator on reddit, defend reddit on
| other sites, meanwhile they still don't have adequate
| native moderation tools that have been promised for
| months now? I genuinely don't get such allegiance. At
| least get paid for it or SOMETHING.
| mardifoufs wrote:
| 2.5$ a month for the average user of third party apps
| isn't really egregious. Especially since you can also use
| your own API key and have something close to 100rq/sec
| for free.
| kec wrote:
| The reddit API terms are written to imply not allowing
| users to bring their own key.
|
| Given how antagonistic reddit has been to 3rd party apps
| during this one can assume they would make this explicit
| if anyone tried.
| snowe2010 wrote:
| they already did make it explicit. https://www.reddit.com
| /r/Infinity_For_Reddit/comments/14c7v8...
| ryukafalz wrote:
| Except Reddit has said that app developers aren't allowed
| to let users set their own API keys: https://www.reddit.c
| om/r/Infinity_For_Reddit/comments/14c7v8...
|
| Obviously for FOSS apps they can't stop someone from
| recompiling the app with their own API key baked in, but
| the barrier to entry there is significantly higher.
| shultays wrote:
| Why reddit is against users using their own api keys?
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| Because this was never about getting a cut in 3rd party
| app revenue. They want to be the only app in town, one
| single experience that all ads can flow into.
|
| Now it begs the question: why not force 3p apps to show
| ads to non-premium users? I imagine control is the answer
| there. Easier to show to adverts how good one app is
| doing then verifying proper ad placement in every 3p app.
| snowe2010 wrote:
| because they don't want the apps to stick around. that's
| why they're not negotiating, that's why they made the
| pricing so high (also to take advantage of AI scrapers),
| that's why they're making a bogeyman out of tpa devs.
| mardifoufs wrote:
| Ahhh! Unsurprisingly, It seems like there is already a
| revanced patch for the Reddit sync app that allows you to
| use your own API key. So I guess users will just start
| doing it anyways, but still I wasn't aware of that
| restriction
| x86x87 wrote:
| This comment is a perfect example. People are not upset
| that the market has changed and advertisers/investors are
| not somehow proping up the unwashed masses.
|
| People are upset because reddit (with the jerk in charge)
| are screwing them over. And they are not only screwing
| them over they are lying through their teeth. On a
| platform that has 0 value without the work of the users
| generating the content.
|
| Twitter? Twitter is a dumpster fire. Reddit will join it
| soon.
| avree wrote:
| [flagged]
| x86x87 wrote:
| [flagged]
| adamrezich wrote:
| the thing you're missing here is that some people have
| strong emotional attachments to their subreddit
| communities, to the point of considering it to be part of
| their identity. I was like this, once, many years ago,
| and while I can't quite understand why anyone would've
| stayed on an obviously-sinking ship this long, I can see
| where they're coming from.
|
| the thing that should've clued you into this is how
| emotionally-charged and defensive the language used by
| these people is (let alone the desire to stage a virtual
| "protest"...)--once you see this pattern, it's easy to
| identify going forward.
| PhilipRoman wrote:
| A while ago I used a command line client for discord. Maybe
| things have changed but "zero 3rd party apps" seems a bit
| exaggerated.
| stiltzkin wrote:
| I don't get the "most consumers wants their media in', it's
| an alternative and what you find complete mess?
| pdntspa wrote:
| > Discord has lower API limits and zero "3rd party apps" so
| the fact that it's the recommended darling child of people
| fleeing reddit because of "low API limits" and "them taking
| away 3rd party apps" makes zero sense.
|
| The majority of kids these days have been stockholm-syndromed
| into loving closed gardens like Reddit or Discord. Nobody
| taught them to that companies and closed gardens manipulate
| them for their own power. Open, decentralized communities are
| dying because of it.
| majormajor wrote:
| What makes the experience of "kids these days" usign
| Reddit/Discord so different than...
|
| "kids those days" using MySpace/FB/Instagram 10-15 years
| ago?
|
| or "kids those days" using AOL 25-30 years ago?
|
| After maybe a brief window from approx 1999-2004 of
| migrating from AOL's walled garden to disparate forums and
| such (at massively smaller scale), it's been moving from
| one walled garden to another for basically 20 years now.
|
| Anyone who wants to change that would be _really well
| served_ to think about why that has been vs just tossing
| around stuff like "stockholm syndrome" and "nobody taught
| them." I don't think "the kids" are nearly as blindly
| trusting in things like the TikTok algorithm as you think,
| I think the choices are much more complex than just "if
| only someone would tell them the flaws they'd all move."
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| >"kids those days" using MySpace/FB/Instagram 10-15 years
| ago?
|
| knowledge. Kids in the myspace days were relatively safe.
| The dark patterns of Facebook weren't public until well
| after it became the social media website.
|
| If reddit/discord kids choose not to heed this knowledge,
| this is on them. They should be better at googling and
| consuming news than the Myspace kids were. I'll hold them
| to a higher standard.
|
| >or "kids those days" using AOL 25-30 years ago?
|
| in the early AOL days there wasn't even an easy way to
| receive online transactions. People who had AoL had it
| delievered to them on a disc, bought or given to them
| physically. There could be viruses, and the 90's internet
| was truly the wild west, but this was well before the
| mantra of "the Internet never forgets" was really
| something to worry about.
|
| >it's been moving from one walled garden to another for
| basically 20 years now.
|
| I don't have issues with the concept of a walled garden.
| But I'm not a fan of putting all my eggs into one basket.
| Even if we have a truly benevolent ruler, they may one
| day pass away and transfer power to a tyrant. Always have
| a backup plan.
|
| That's my issue, it seems the internet is closing off
| more and more and converging into a few critical points
| of operations. Seemingly forgetting the idea that every
| empire falls. I don't care if Reddit devolves into a
| glorified eternal commercial, I care that no one is
| prepared to properly move to something else, anything
| else.
| pdntspa wrote:
| There was some semblance of openness and creativity in
| most of the previous walled gardens. Myspace let you
| style your profile with CSS and embed stuff. Facebook
| used to let you run your own chat client.
| AIM/ICQ/MSN/Yahoo all had semi-open protocols and as a
| result we had Trillian/Pidgin/others. Things were
| somewhat centralized but they were connected via open
| protocols. It was a beautiful time.
|
| To say nothing of the fact that the cultural zeitgeist
| has changed from kids distrusting "the man" to kids
| openly bragging about sponsorships and "influencers"
| whoring themselves out for likes and free product.
| Content that was accessible, linkable, archivable, and
| searchable now lives in millions of miniature jails. And
| then we get something like the Reddit apocalypse that
| just happened and now the internet is missing vast
| swathes of vitally important information, because one
| stupid fucking CEO wanted to take his company public.
|
| So yes, kids these days.
| ansible wrote:
| > _Myspace let you style your profile with CSS and embed
| stuff._
|
| Which resulted in most pages being a horrific travesty in
| terms of readability.
| pdntspa wrote:
| It was a beautiful mess!
| randomdata wrote:
| _> There was some semblance of openness and creativity in
| most of the previous walled gardens._
|
| Yet the original Reddit, Usenet, was right there as open
| as decentralized as can be and they flocked to the walled
| gardens anyway. Kids those days.
| majormajor wrote:
| This sounds like rose colored glasses. By AOL I don't
| mean AIM, I mean "AOL keyword [whatever]" sites,
| especially pre-opening-up-of-AIM, which was as walled
| garden and corporate as you could get compared to what
| the open web or Usenet was then. And Facebook beat
| MySpace in large part _because of_ the comparative lack
| of control (and wasn 't even "chat" in those days at
| all).
|
| I personally don't place nearly as much value on
| diversity of clients to access centralized services as
| you. Isn't that exactly what led to that "Reddit
| apocalypse"? An illusion of openness with a giant
| corporate SPOF, just like all the other ones? Chosen by
| the kids of 10-15 years ago? If not for the transitory
| nature of Reddit becoming popular as the surge of the
| mobile migration catching people off guard, you probably
| never get the same appearance of openness in the first
| place - but as long as the content was centrally hosted,
| it was the same closed-garden story. Same with all the
| old no-longer-viewable picture tweets that relied on one
| or another flash-in-the-pan image hosting service...
| Reddit, Twitter, all of them were never anything but
| walled gardens, and people in the fading non-walled-
| gardens in the last 2010s certainly called that out.
|
| Nor is thinking everyone else is a sellout anything new.
| Certainly not newer than the 90s. The target of that
| message was _the huge number of people who always did buy
| the pop products_ in the first place. Nobody would care
| about raging against the machine if the machine wasn 't
| dominant. And isn't it telling that _all those
| generations still ended up going with The Man or becoming
| The Man_? Maybe it isn 't an effective approach.
| pdntspa wrote:
| There was never a substantial amount of informational
| content on AOL proper, it was all advertising or mass
| media-generated stuff. User-generated content in the
| discussion boards that I remember was insubstantial and
| in any case there weren't really proper search engines
| back then anyway. None of your friends were like, "check
| me out on AOL keyword Bob Smith", putting content on AOL
| was effectively impossible outside discussion boards or
| chat. (Which IIRC was inundated with a/s/l bullshit)
|
| I'm OK with the patchwork of image hosts fading out
| because they are archivable. I can still right-click to
| save what interests me, and the image is hosted at a URL
| anyone could punch in or scrape. Except more recently,
| where we all apparently hate bots and we've let our
| bandwidth providers become highwaymen for a resource that
| is supposed to be free.
|
| I'm not saying this stuff needs to be immortal, it just
| needs to be distributed, archiveable, linkable, and
| accessible from the client of your choice. Reddit
| suppresses scraping and nobody seems to have anything
| cached in an accessible way, at least judging by Google
| results.
|
| > And isn't it telling that all those generations still
| ended up going with The Man or becoming The Man? Maybe it
| isn't an effective approach.
|
| Where there is an effective ecosystem that avoids "The
| Man" I think you will still find those people. They are
| not highlighted or lifted up by the masses. Instead most
| folks will make the contemptible choice of sucking off
| the corporate cock in exchange for a relatively easy and
| mindless, monotonous, consumptive, pathetic little life.
| I know this because I did it too. But I am much happier
| having weaned myself from its bosom.
| majormajor wrote:
| "Instead most folks will make the contemptible choice of
| sucking off the corporate cock in exchange for a
| relatively easy and mindless, monotonous, consumptive,
| pathetic little life. I know this because I did it too.
| But I am much happier having weaned myself from its
| bosom."
|
| Yeah, it's not just "kids of today", is it? Almost all of
| us have chosen convenience over distributed,
| decentralized, robust, linkable, exportable platforms at
| some point.
|
| All the way back to the days of those corporate media and
| commercial advertising sites inside of AOL bringing more
| new users to the web than plain Usenet.
|
| I just don't think it's despicable at all. Running a
| discord channel instead of hosting a web forum? A lot
| easier to spin something up quickly with multimedia
| capabilities for a community without technical knowledge.
| It could all go away tomorrow, or slowly get
| shittified... and people will move on to something else
| again.
|
| People having to ask questions anew that have already
| been answered in the past? In-depth knowledge of
| yesterday's culture fading away? To me, that isn't a high
| price to pay. I talk to people on HN (walled garden),
| some others on forums (a mix of corporate walled garden
| or independent ones), some others on Discord (walled
| garden), it's all good enough IMO. Certainly not a moral
| failing for anyone. Saying something like "contemptible
| choice of sucking off the corporate cock in exchange for
| a relatively easy and mindless, monotonous, consumptive,
| pathetic little life" doesn't make me think you're any
| happier for avoiding it... those are not the words of the
| content.
| brohee wrote:
| Unlike Reddit Discord has a good client. Reddit forcing
| people on its official app is the issue, and would be less
| so if it was any good. As it is, it's not, because of a
| long list of bugs (as egregious as not displaying the right
| post, videos not playing...) and a long list of misfeatured
| (e.g. recommending me subreddits I have zero interest in,
| while the fact that I'm subscribed to dozens of subs might
| suggest I have content discovery dialled in...).
| pdntspa wrote:
| > Unlike Reddit Discord has a good client.
|
| Absolutely untrue. The number of things you _can 't_ do
| with Discord vastly exceeds nearly every chat client out
| there that precedes it. Want to watch multiple chats?
| Fuck you. Want to filter notifications by
| server/sender/other criteria? Fuck you. Are you a power
| user? Fuck you. Do you want important content indexed by
| search engines? Fuck you. Want to break a conversation
| out into its own window? Fuck you.
|
| Oh but hey it has a cute logo and you can post gifs.
| Because apparently people need to anthropomorphize their
| computers and are incapable of expressing themselves with
| their words.
| smcleod wrote:
| This site seems a bit dodgy, it's telling people that Reddit's 3D
| printing community has "relocated" to some random Lemmy site that
| seems dead other than one person just filling it with posts
| simply titled "balls".
| Stephen304 wrote:
| Most of those things seem to be true. The 3dprinting mod did
| endorse those 2 alternatives, and they seem to be the mod of
| one of them, they also seem to be doing a terrible job
| moderating the instance they created, and the users of
| r/3dprinting seem to be spamming it because they disagree with
| how the mod handled things, and I'm guessing the mod didn't get
| buy-in from the users of the sub before trying to migrate.
|
| I don't think that necessarily makes sub.rehab dodgy, they are
| accurately communicating alternatives both mod-endorsed and
| not.
| tomstockmail wrote:
| That instance was from one of the mods, they posted about it
| here on HN a couple days ago too. They got roasted hard on
| r/3dprinting, but it's "official" as it can be. Personally
| moving to an instance that doesn't involve the mods (of any
| subreddit) is a benefit.
|
| https://old.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/14a7sh5/join_us...
|
| The 3dprinting communities on other Lemmy instances are plenty
| active though.
| e_i_pi_2 wrote:
| So many on this list are using "Lemmy", but it seems like they
| explicitly don't want to recreate a reddit experience there
|
| https://lemmy.ml/post/70280
|
| > Lemmy.ml has always been a niche site, and it will most likely
| stay this way. We don't have any intentions to turn it into a
| mainstream instance, or set a goal of getting as many users as
| possible
|
| > having more users would force us to spend more time moderating,
| and less time for development. Lemmy works quite differently from
| big tech sites like Reddit in this regard: while they get more
| money with each extra user through advertising, for us it is the
| opposite. So we would much rather have a smaller, non-toxic, and
| friendly userbase, than a large one
|
| They do seem to think someone should do it, but I think are
| wisely not doing it themselves
|
| > In particular, I would like to see someone (or a group of
| people) create a mainstream, or liberal instance. That should
| help to avoid further drama, and avoid attempts to turn lemmy.ml
| into something that it is not.
|
| But I don't see how this actually solves the core issues - you'd
| still need someone to run the main instance, they'd need revenue
| for it. This might take power away from Reddit right now, but
| does nothing to stop a new company from doing the same thing
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Go to https://lemmy.world
|
| The .ml instance doesn't want new users. World is becoming a
| "main instance", but nobody thinks this will last. Anyway, if
| you want to move, go there.
| nerdbert wrote:
| When I go to deep links on lemmy.ml I get an nginx error, and
| when I go to the default page (/) I get a broken-looking mess.
| para_parolu wrote:
| Link is 500 now. I wonder if it's because hn?
| gs17 wrote:
| Lemmy is the software, Lemmy.ml is only one instance running
| it.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| Two things:
|
| First, about the site. The "back" functionality is kinda messed
| up here. I typed something in then hitting the back button
| removes the last character. Go to site, type "gaming", hit back,
| get same page with "gamin", hit back, get same page with "gami."
| etc.
|
| Second, about subs going permanently private. It's a major blow
| for small, local subs. My city's sub went permanently private.
| It's a pretty small sub. It's not really sticking it to reddit
| like a large sub is (which has a big bank of widely useful
| knowledge). And its too small to probably migrate (its not on
| this list for example). It pretty much only hurts the people in
| that community and doesn't hurt reddit.
| chris_wot wrote:
| lemmy.world seems... slow
| hellweaver666 wrote:
| they are open source projects without major financial backing.
| Mastodon had a similar challenge last year when people started
| leaving Twitter en masse.
| paulmd wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36383120
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33855250
|
| it seems most instances hit scaling limits at 1k-30k signups
| per instance. 1k is more like consumer hardware, a consumer CPU
| and 32GB of memory type stuff, while using epyc and 128GB or
| 256GB of memory with enterprise SSDs behind it gets you to 30k.
|
| Federation actually makes this worse because right now there is
| an all-to-all broadcast model. There is no concept of a "relay"
| node that is allowed to carry your posts to another, even if
| you are in an all-connected clique of N nodes you need to
| connect to N-1 nodes to exchange data, which means load
| increases with federation.
|
| Obviously there are several pretty clear optimizations that
| shake out of just my description here, and I assume many smart
| people are working on it.
|
| On the other hand... this is also where you bump into
| "everybody kinda wants different things". Do you want other
| pods to be able to "forge" messages from you? Do you want to
| sign every message you post (or have your pod sign it for you)
| to prevent forgery? Do you want to have any ability to ever
| yank a post back out of the void, or are you comfortable with
| the "once it's out there, it's out there"?
|
| A lot of people have tacitly different answers to these
| questions and have never really had to think about it because
| Reddit provided a one-size-fits-all answer for them, just like
| the problem of moderation between federated pods. Like, what if
| you have a great contributor on your pod but he's completely a
| shithead on politics on some other pod, and people start
| looking to defederate your pod unless you take care of them?
| Reddit simply solved this by establishing some global baselines
| and if you don't like it tough, don't post on reddit.
| tjpnz wrote:
| Back button is broken on Firefox for Android.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-06-20 23:02 UTC)