[HN Gopher] I give up on free software phones (2019)
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       I give up on free software phones (2019)
        
       Author : luu
       Score  : 93 points
       Date   : 2023-06-20 08:53 UTC (14 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (yotam.net)
 (TXT) w3m dump (yotam.net)
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | superkuh wrote:
       | Giving up on free software phones is the first step. Now give up
       | on software phones and just use a tiny non-computer cell phone
       | that does text and voice. The removable battery will last a week
       | and you won't even notice it in your pocket. The firmware will
       | last the entire life of the phone, never needing to be updated.
       | 
       | Replace the car GPS navigation functionality with a dedicated car
       | GPS and you have most of the same functionality but with better
       | longer lasting devices.
        
         | NotYourLawyer wrote:
         | I don't even want a "phone." The number of actual phone calls I
         | make is minuscule compared to internet usage, texting,
         | videoconferencing, navigating, etc.
        
         | rationalist wrote:
         | And miss out on, or pay for, GPS updates and lose out on real-
         | time traffic reports.
        
           | hsishzixgsi wrote:
           | traffic is pretty consistent everywhere.
           | 
           | you also "miss" being sent to a known slow and long rout just
           | because the buggy algorithm wants to bucket test some random
           | path close to the daily rush hour.
        
             | rationalist wrote:
             | > traffic is pretty consistent everywhere.
             | 
             | Yes, accidents always happen in the same spot at the same
             | time on the same days, and new people visiting new places
             | always know about those things.
             | 
             | I have had Google try to send me on slower routes, but I
             | use my brain and drive the more logical way and it updates
             | the map accordingly. Though most people are not logical,
             | and such practices theoretically help everyone overall
             | including the petson who is sent on a different route that
             | time.
        
           | dmm wrote:
           | > GPS updates
           | 
           | I load free OSM maps on my GPS.
        
           | Marsymars wrote:
           | My Garmin GPS has been getting free map updates for years and
           | gives real-time traffic reports.
        
       | jeroenhd wrote:
       | > a constant notification just so it will be able to send me push
       | notifications
       | 
       | That's because stuff running in the background in a way that
       | cannot be optimized by the system must inform the user it's doing
       | background operations.
       | 
       | I think that's a good idea. Hiding the notification is easy (hold
       | it to enter the notification settings and disable that specific
       | notification category) and it clearly shows which apps are
       | killing your battery life, hopefully making the entire platform
       | less dependent on aggressive task killers.
        
       | AndyKelley wrote:
       | I got my librem in the mail last week after waiting several
       | years(!!) for shipping. It's complete trash. The software is
       | shit, the battery is shit, it's expensive, low specs, completely
       | unusable.
       | 
       | I'm willing to compromise a lot in order to go with the free
       | software approach, but my god, just do better. There's no excuse
       | for how un-functional this thing is. Try harder.
       | 
       | I had the same reaction with the pine phone a couple years ago.
       | At least that one shipped sooner though.
        
         | BSEdlMMldESB wrote:
         | no excuse, merely a conspiracy explanation:
         | 
         | it simply cannot be permitted. somebody realized PC
         | market/platform made a huge "mistake", letting anybody make
         | software for them and permitting random hardware. this
         | 'mistake' was avoided on smartphones for very pointed, clear,
         | intentions of social control.
         | 
         | there exists NO homebrew smartphone hardware like for PCs.
        
           | chongli wrote:
           | Your conspiracy explanation doesn't pass the sniff test.
           | There's a much much simpler explanation: lack of demand.
           | 
           | Heck, you'd think people on hacker news would be all over
           | open source alternatives to proprietary hardware, software,
           | and services. Yet take a brief wander over to one of the many
           | (many) recent Reddit crisis threads and you'll find countless
           | naysayers talking about how lemmy and the like will never
           | succeed, despite gaining hundreds of thousands of users in a
           | week and a half.
        
             | BSEdlMMldESB wrote:
             | it is really incredible,
             | 
             | how could lack of demand be made to happen?
             | 
             | but I'm not trying to imply anything. I merely wonder if
             | such a thing (to create or destroy demand of something) is
             | possible; and if it were, how would you do it?
             | 
             | surely it involves marketing? but I also want to reflect on
             | the market cap of convenience...
        
         | TheAceOfHearts wrote:
         | Also received my librem 5 recently, and it's incredibly
         | disappointing. The software in particular is incredibly buggy
         | and janky. When I open the app store it just fails to load
         | things sometimes. Even the FirefoxOS device I tried a few years
         | ago was better.
        
         | Arnavion wrote:
         | >The software is shit, the battery is shit, it's expensive, low
         | specs, completely unusable.
         | 
         | >I had the same reaction with the pine phone a couple years
         | ago.
         | 
         | Anyone who writes " _the_ software " like you and
         | TheAceOfHearts did, as if it's an iPhone or Android, doesn't
         | understand the first thing about a Linux phone. Please resell
         | them to someone that's less PEBKAC than you. Thanks. They'll
         | appreciate it.
         | 
         | And in the future I recommend asking people before you buy
         | them, so that you know ahead of time not to keep these phones
         | from going to people who will make better use of them.
        
           | OldManRyan wrote:
           | They shouldn't need to understand it. I don't understand the
           | first thing about how my phone works or mobile development in
           | general. It just works and does what I need it to do.
        
             | Arnavion wrote:
             | Yes they do need to understand it. If you believe you don't
             | need or want to understand it, then Linux phones are not
             | for you.
             | 
             | It's okay. Really. Not everything has to be for everyone,
             | and evidently Linux phones are not for you. Please don't
             | buy them. Thanks.
        
               | OldManRyan wrote:
               | You don't need to understand it according to Librem. They
               | are marketing a "user-friendly"(their words) replacement
               | for iPhone and Android. If this was a product sold for
               | the most hardcore Linux users who dream about bash
               | scripts then yeah this isn't a product for me and that's
               | fine. But, that isn't what they are trying to sell and
               | that is the problem.
        
       | StingyJelly wrote:
       | Since 2019 the landscape has deffinitely changed. "Hardcore" Free
       | Software phones like Pinephone, Librem or PostmarketOS are still
       | difficult but if LineageOS is Free-Software-enough for you, don't
       | give up now. There is grapheneOS that should be no-compromises
       | solution with it's sandboxed google apps. (Haven't used it
       | myself.) MicroG now passes safetynet once again and is pretty
       | stable. (Altrough on some phones you may need root to make it
       | believe that the phone is not rooted.) Clean LineageOS without
       | gapps is more usable than ever due to the huawei-google breakup
       | resulting in a lot more apps being published on huawei appgallery
       | without google safetynet requirement. (Unlike their playstore
       | version.) Downloading apk from Appgallery website requires just
       | some url manipulation for which you can use following
       | bookmarklet:
       | 
       | javascript:(function() {window.location=window.location.href.repl
       | ace(/^https:\/\/appgallery\\.huawei\\.com\/app/g,
       | "https://appgallery.cloud.huawei.com/appdl" );})()
       | 
       | Source: me. I daily-drive 7 year old phone running LineageOS with
       | almost no issues. I also have a backup phone where I multi-boot
       | LineageOS+MicroG and postmarketOS for fun and experimentation.
        
         | sleepycatgirl wrote:
         | Huh. My new phone doesn't have Google play services, so I kept
         | old OP6 solely for the bank app... but the bank app is also on
         | the huawei app store...
         | 
         | So now I am almost tempted to see if I can get the bank app on
         | my current phone, and then, finally try out postmarketOS on the
         | OP6
        
       | harwoodr wrote:
       | I really wish there was a true and modern successor to the Nokia
       | n900 I had ages ago... it was an awesome device.
        
       | barbariangrunge wrote:
       | I expected this to at least mention the pine phone, the librem,
       | or the Ubuntu phone (which was charming). It's just about de-
       | googled android and how it doesn't work very well due to how
       | everything depends on google play services
        
         | the_third_wave wrote:
         | > ...de-googled android and how it doesn't work very well due
         | to how everything depends on google play services
         | 
         | Even that aspect is wildly overblown in my experience of using
         | Google-free Android devices for the last 12 years. Yes, the
         | thing will prompt you to install some Google-thing because it
         | supposedly does not work without it - there are currently two
         | such notifications on one of my devices telling me so. The
         | thing is, nearly everything I throw at the device works even
         | though some things complain about the supposed lack of Google
         | services. I click away the warning if it appears and just use
         | the software, this includes e.g. BankID - a Swedish electronic
         | ID provider - and similar apps. I do not have microG installed
         | on my main device either, I just forego on using Google
         | services altogether.
         | 
         | All in all I think the current situation with de-Googled
         | Android is quite useable. If ever some mobile thing comes along
         | which more resembles the way software is installed on personal
         | computers - i.e. install Linux or BSD of choice, add required
         | software, configure accounts and you're in the game - I might
         | move to that but until such a time I'll keep on using AOSP-
         | derived Android distributions in combination with self-hosted
         | services.
        
           | Animats wrote:
           | > All in all I think the current situation with de-Googled
           | Android is quite useable.
           | 
           | It is, mostly. So far, I've still been able to reject having
           | a Google account on new phones. Then I delete the "first
           | time" app Google sticks on there, disable Google services,
           | install F-Droid, and use only F-Droid apps.
           | 
           | Does that still work? It's been three years since I started a
           | new phone?
        
             | the_third_wave wrote:
             | Yes, that seems to work still, I recently configured my
             | wife's new Galaxy S21 FE and had no problems telling Google
             | and Samsung to take their accounts to where the sun don't
             | shine.
        
         | fikama wrote:
         | do not forget postmarketOS project :)
        
         | novia wrote:
         | It did mention the Librem.
        
         | Un1corn wrote:
         | When I wrote it, from the options you mentioned, only Ubuntu
         | phone existed and it was after Canonical abandoned it. So in
         | 2019 it really felt like Android was the only option.
        
       | linmob wrote:
       | Please add a [2019] to the title.
        
         | MandieD wrote:
         | Done, after seeing the author say it was written then.
        
         | LatticeAnimal wrote:
         | [meta-commentary] HN should require a date field on all
         | submissions and then should only show the date if the article
         | is older than a specified time (like 1yr) (or always show the
         | date but not in the title)
        
           | lolinder wrote:
           | Some web pages don't have a date.
        
             | wang_li wrote:
             | Those web pages should be removed from the internet.
        
             | LatticeAnimal wrote:
             | Then make it opt-out, or make it default to today's date,
             | or ... There are solutions to this problem that are better
             | than the way it currently works.
        
       | gnramires wrote:
       | Any updates on the situation in 2023?
        
         | zorrolovsky wrote:
         | I use CalyxOS on a Pixel 6a and a LineageOS on a OnePlus 6. No
         | micro G on any of them. Honestly, I have absolutely no issues
         | with CalyxOS and I use mainstream apps like: UK Banking
         | (Starling and HSBC), Whatsapp, Telegram, MyFitnessPal, some
         | airlines and local bus apps...
         | 
         | I guess your mileage might vary. If you're keen on a particular
         | app and you can't make it work, that's a frustration. So far I
         | haven't found any reason to come back to a standard OS, and I
         | appreciate my phone not sending constant signals to Apple or
         | Google to the tune of hundreds per day.
        
           | nelblu wrote:
           | I use calyxos as well and have microg disabled. WhatsApp
           | works fine, signal, telgram works great, fairemail client for
           | emails, davx5 for contact syncing etc. I don't use any google
           | apps expects camera app (which I have disabled data access
           | using firewall), but I have a feeling those may not work so
           | well on calyxos.
           | 
           | Only problem - which I actually think is a feature is that I
           | don't get any notifications for a lot of apps, unless I
           | actually open the app. I really think this is a great thing
           | because most of these apps that use google services for
           | notifications are just sending marketing modifications which
           | I would have blocked anyway. I do sometimes miss WhatsApp
           | call because the notification doesn't work properly but I
           | have told all my friends and family that they can contact me
           | on signal for fastest response.
        
             | anonymousDan wrote:
             | Is it possible to uninstall all browsers (including Chrome)
             | in Calyxos? Most of the time I waste on my phone is in the
             | browser and I would love to have a browserless but
             | otherwise connected device.
        
       | gigatexal wrote:
       | GrapheneOS seems to be the winner these days.
        
         | logicprog wrote:
         | Been using it daily for almost a year now, and yeah. God it's
         | clean. I love it.
        
         | noman-land wrote:
         | GrapheneOS is wonderful.
        
           | Freak_NL wrote:
           | It is, but limited to the (excellent) Google Pixel devices.
        
         | rationalist wrote:
         | Does anyone run CalyxOS, which is put together by the Calyx
         | Institute?
        
           | zorrolovsky wrote:
           | I have been running CalyxOS on a Pixel 6a for 6 months and
           | I'm very happy with it. It does everything I need and found
           | no big annoyances so far. A minor issue is MyFitnessPal not
           | reading barcodes but that's it.
        
       | throwaway22032 wrote:
       | I've leaned harder into stuff like degoogled Android since app
       | providers started to get obsessive about unrooted phones.
       | 
       | I'm sorry, but no, you don't need to halt execution simply
       | because I'm an admin on my own device. Particularly if I can do
       | exactly the same thing by just using your web interface (90% of
       | the time this is available).
        
       | downWidOutaFite wrote:
       | I hoped Amazon's non-Play devices would be enough to keep most
       | developers from being fully captured by Google. Unfortunately
       | they haven't been popular enough in many cases.
        
       | reddisbad wrote:
       | The hardware and software stacks of all of the components of a
       | smartphone are at the pinnacle of modern engineering, requiring
       | an uncountable number of engineers and consumers to maintain a
       | mind-boggling supply chain.
       | 
       | Of course there's a price for this.
       | 
       | I gave up and got a Nokia 105.
        
         | pacifika wrote:
         | Thanks for mentioning a device
        
           | reddisbad wrote:
           | I'm lucky (?) to live somewhere where 2G isn't going to be
           | turned off any time soon, due to legacy support requirements.
           | Otherwise, I'd have to get one of Nokia's newer "dumb
           | smartphone" devices.
        
             | selectodude wrote:
             | The more recent refresh of the Nokia 105 comes in 4G
             | flavors and supports VoLTE so you're good to go worldwide.
        
       | timthelion wrote:
       | I use lineage on oneplus phones and have no problems. I can't do
       | internet banking and a bunch of other non-free things, but
       | really, who needs that? I have a web browser. The only thing that
       | doesn't work is google meet and google docs and google drive
       | because they intentionally break the mobile experience in the
       | web. But there is a simple solution. Simply don't use google
       | services. If/when my employer demands that of me (occasionally I
       | hear murmurings) I just tell him I'm online 9-5 on my laptop and
       | if he needs me he can call. I'm happy with my lineage.
        
         | kelnos wrote:
         | > _I can 't do internet banking and a bunch of other non-free
         | things, but really, who needs that?_
         | 
         | I do, and so do a majority of smartphone users. Good for you
         | that you are fine doing without it, but most people will not
         | accept that trade off.
         | 
         | I ran CyanogenMod back when that was a thing, but at that time
         | SafetyNet didn't exist, and it was a rare event when an app
         | that ran on Google-approved Android didn't run on CM. Nowadays
         | I can't run an alternative ROM without sacrificing things I
         | care about using.
        
           | Certhas wrote:
           | If you're in the EU your web based online banking requires
           | 2FA which is typically provided by phone biometry+app.
           | 
           | No idea if these work on Lineage, etc...
        
         | secondcoming wrote:
         | I use two banks in the UK and both are pushing to use their app
         | over their website.
         | 
         | Even logging in to the websites is a chore.
        
       | blendergeek wrote:
       | Related (sort of): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36353960
        
       | user_7832 wrote:
       | On a similar note I've been wanting to buy and use a fully "free"
       | phone - one where I have complete control over most if not all
       | things. But it appears to me that unless you use a regular
       | "phone", there is no way you can DIY your way into building a
       | "modern" phone bit by bit like how a desktop could be made.*
       | 
       | Calling/4g/5g require specific hardware that seems difficult to
       | integrate at a hobbyist level (unlike say installing Linux which
       | is possible in an afternoon even for some not familiar with it.)
       | And even though you could get android to run on a raspberry pi,
       | it appears impossible to use something like google pay (which
       | likely requires safetynet) on it.
       | 
       | I'm not sure if the reason is the "blobs" that ARM uses instead
       | of drivers but it is disappointing that I can't take something
       | like the Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 dev kit, dualboot linux and android
       | and use it like a phone-laptop hybrid. /Disappointed rant over
       | 
       | (Here's the kit -
       | https://developer.qualcomm.com/hardware/snapdragon-8-gen-2-h...)
       | 
       | * - technically even laptops like with an SBC or the framework
       | board. I can make the hardware but the software challenges seem
       | huge. If anyone familiar with ARM development has any
       | info/suggestions, I'd love to know more.
        
         | gigel82 wrote:
         | Are you saying you can build a modern desktop without any
         | binary blobs? Full control of all firmware (including the CPU
         | microcode and things like Intel ME)? What about WiFi cards? I'd
         | say that hasn't been true for at least 20 years.
        
           | user_7832 wrote:
           | > Are you saying you can build a modern desktop without any
           | binary blobs? Full control of all firmware (including the CPU
           | microcode and things like Intel ME)? What about WiFi cards?
           | I'd say that hasn't been true for at least 20 years.
           | 
           | Not exactly.
           | 
           | What I mean is the average x64 Intel/AMD device is relatively
           | much more "controllable" than an equivalent smartphone,
           | assuming decent BIOS/UEFI options are provided. If I want to
           | customize the looks with rainmeter, or even system-level
           | tweaks (eg mactype), it's relatively trivial on desktop OSes
           | (possibly excluding recent locked-down MacOs versions). I can
           | even jump between Windows and Linux and Hackintosh/MacOs and
           | BSD as I have a "pretty decent" level of control.
           | 
           | A rooted android phone is also quite decent, however issues
           | start creeping in the further you stray from what your
           | manufacturer provided. It starts of with things like
           | Widevine/DRM not playing nice (unless you have a Titan M chip
           | or something similar), and the further you go (stock rom ->
           | custom rom with gapps/microG -> deGoogled rom), the more
           | painful it becomes to even use ""basics" like whatsapp.
           | 
           | I guess all this is a very roundabout way of saying that
           | desktop OS is a first class citizen (mostly), while mobile
           | OSes (which are necessary for booking an Uber/paying at the
           | checkout POS/navigating with Google Maps with turn-by-turn
           | nav) do not have other freedoms. And while the hardware
           | absolutely exists for an arm board to do it all with the
           | right daughterboards, doing mobile stuff on a desktop is
           | impossible, and doing desktop stuff on mobile is limiting
           | thanks to software.
        
         | salawat wrote:
         | Baseband and cryptographic shenanigans are a pox to FLOSS/H.
         | 
         | Particularly on the hardware front, since there is a vested
         | interest/requirement for operating Telco's to maintain backdoor
         | functionality/capabilities for the local government. It's just
         | like payment processing.
         | 
         | Everyone having their own stack is such a great sounding idea,
         | but the Establishment/System is tuned such that it can never
         | happen, and in the event it does, it's guaranteed to be
         | dismantled because every ne'er- do-well will start exploiting
         | it, and the vast majority of people are not interested in
         | protecting themselves... They want someone else to do it for
         | them.
         | 
         | It's one of those nice things we just can't seem to get our
         | shit straight enough as a society to have.
        
         | oneplane wrote:
         | I strongly depends on what you mean by 'control' and 'made'. In
         | a sense it all depends on the depth of control and making your
         | own; nearly all modern silicon requires proprietary software to
         | initialise it to a usable state, and almost all hardware can't
         | really run on its own and needs supporting devices which can
         | cause an otherwise open design to end up closed anyway (even if
         | it is something tangentially adjacent like a required PMIC).
         | 
         | Some CPUs and SoC can be operated to their fullest capabilities
         | with pure open hardware and software designs where you have all
         | the control in the world (if we draw the line at silicon
         | diffusion and packaging), but those usually lack one thing or
         | another making them less feasible for common modern use. Often
         | these are things like memory controllers and I/O where internal
         | SoC peripherals need special initialisation before they are
         | usable. Even in cases where the driver side of things is
         | reverse-engineered a bunch of Real-Time OS code needs to be
         | loaded at boot time to get things like GPUs, Basebands and
         | storage to work at all. So far, there are practically no cases
         | where those have been reverse-engineered and replaced.
         | 
         | For a lot of internet-commenting-people, 'open' means something
         | specific to them, like changing some design aspects like
         | colours and fonts, or installing cracked software. Those are
         | mostly just end-user features and have little to do with
         | openness. This has a sad side-effect making searching for
         | 'open' information get littered with what essentially boils
         | down to appearance and recompositions of existing software.
         | 
         | Perhaps we need 'levels' of openness or other words to describe
         | what we mean. The Snapdragon example is a good one in that it
         | essentially uses an openly available and targetable ISA, but
         | closed system design which still makes it impossible to use as-
         | is (thus needing the blobs you mentioned). On one hand it's all
         | legal and NDA stuff, on the other hand it's also laziness and
         | cheaping out on the long-term usability. If a company were to
         | spend just a little of their marketing budget on finding out
         | the parts of the hardware that doesn't need all that NDA
         | coverage, making open software to run the hardware becomes much
         | easier.
        
           | user_7832 wrote:
           | Good points, ideally I'd say the software should at least be
           | non-proprietary or at least source-available, but in reality
           | I would settle for anything where I can control at least the
           | software (OS level) side of things.
        
       | jancsika wrote:
       | Someone should do a Linux phone that scales _way_ back:
       | 
       | 1. you can dial phone numbers somehow
       | 
       | 2. you can talk on the phone
       | 
       | 3. you can hear the person on the other line
       | 
       | 4. the cell reception on the phone is decent quality
       | 
       | 5. antenna is properly placed for very good reception
       | 
       | 6. basic SMS works, all the time
       | 
       | 7. has been extensively tested to work with a _single_ carrier,
       | any other carrier is no warranty
       | 
       | 8. boot time and shutdown time are so small that it
       | opportunistically shuts down instead of suspend
       | 
       | 9. bonus goal: contacts, can maybe play snake
       | 
       | Librem 5 fails #5 and #8 (and can't really succeed at #8 unless
       | you just drop into a command line, but then you wouldn't be able
       | to input phone numbers). I've read some reports that #1, #2, and
       | #3 have improved enough to be usable. On #7, they offer a bundle
       | with a simcard for a carrier that was tested with the phone.
       | (Doubt it was extensively tested, though.)
       | 
       | Of the little I've read about Pinephone and Pinephone Pro,
       | they've had problems with #3, #6, and #7, and #8.
       | 
       | Overall, however, both appear as a smartphone complete with
       | messaging and browsers. But Librem 5 can't do hardware
       | acceleration for Firefox ESR (because the etnaviv driver doesn't
       | have recent enough OpenGL features for webrender to work).
       | 
       | Pinephone is too slow to browse.
       | 
       | I'm not sure about Pinephone Pro (though I'd be quite surprised
       | if it passes the Firefox webrender tests).
       | 
       | I'd much prefer a much more basic device that gets all the basics
       | right, and then be pleasantly surprised that I can play mp3s on
       | it, too.
        
         | horeszko wrote:
         | I've been daily driving a PinePhone running postmarketOS +
         | phosh for the last month and here is what I've found:
         | 
         | 1. Yes, has a dialpad. Works as you would expect
         | 
         | 2, 3, 4. Yes, works well on my carrier
         | 
         | 5. The antenna is along the side of the phone I believe and the
         | reception seems good, I haven't had issues with this
         | 
         | 6. I would say SMS only works about 95% percent of the time.
         | The phone does randomly disconnect from the celluar network
         | maybe once every day or two
         | 
         | 7. Works well on my carrier, no issues here. I have a data plan
         | and it works fine
         | 
         | 8. It takes maybe a minute or two to boot, but to be fair my
         | Samsung A52 Android takes longer to boot, maybe 2 minutes
         | 
         | 9. Yes, there is a contact app, don't know about snake :)
         | 
         | Other:
         | 
         | 10. The phone is slow, firefox works and all the websites I
         | visit (including google maps, uber, etc.) render and work
         | correctly, but slowly. I wouldn't say too slow to browse, but
         | 100% it is slow
         | 
         | 11. Be CAREFUL inserting the SIM card, it is extremely easy to
         | break the SIM pins and brick the phone if the SIM card is not
         | inserted correctly (I learnt this the hard way)
         | 
         | 12. Surprisingly a large amount of apps available via
         | flatpak/flathub, including both foss apps for things like email
         | and 3rd party clients for things like spotify and whatsapp
         | (text only, no video or audio calls). All the core linux stuff
         | and lots of the foss apps via apk
         | 
         | 13. However not all apps on flathub are compatible with the
         | PinePhone since PinePhones uses aarch64 architecture, not
         | x86_64
         | 
         | 14. Very poor battery life out of the box, about 4 hours tops.
         | However, after installing tlp and irqbalance (via apk) and
         | setting auto-suspend to 1 minute, the battery life is about 8
         | to 12 hours of "normal" usage, so quite usuable
         | 
         | 15. Camera is very basic
        
           | seanp2k2 wrote:
           | Pinephone Pro here, I wanted to use it as a home automation
           | controller around the house, I think I bricked the keyboard
           | case attachment by using the wrong charging port (why is that
           | even a thing??) because it doesn't work, but to be fair, it
           | never did work, and I've tried troubleshooting it for a few
           | hours with no joy, so now I'm just kinda too frustrated with
           | it to sink more time into it and it's sitting in a drawer.
           | 
           | I should probably try postmarketOS on it and use it as a
           | burner travel phone.
        
         | BSEdlMMldESB wrote:
         | 0. it must be able to use the internet; with this, the rest of
         | the software should be able to be ported/emulated somehow.
         | 
         | number 7 points at why this won't really work. providers can
         | just say it's a security vulnerability and shut this kind of
         | cellphone down.
         | 
         | 8. would be awesome, it's even a good idea for typical locked
         | down smartphones because the battery life!
        
         | anonym29 wrote:
         | https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp02-4g-mobile-phone/
         | 
         | Not advocating for this, I do not own one, but I'm pretty sure
         | this substantially covers all goals listed minus #8 (plus an
         | unlisted one - Signal integration).
         | 
         | I investigated and considered this option carefully. Ultimately
         | ended up doing a Pixel running GrapheneOS (no microG) as a
         | stop-gap until I buy either a Pinephone or Librem, once those
         | are a little more usable.
        
         | snvzz wrote:
         | Genode[0] takes care of the software part. Microkernel
         | multiserver with capabilities proper.
         | 
         | 0. https://genodians.org/nfeske/2023-02-01-mobile-sculpt
        
         | SketchySeaBeast wrote:
         | Doesn't #8's opportunistic shutdown prevent it from functioning
         | as a phone and receiving calls?
        
           | pengaru wrote:
           | Not necessarily, if the cell modem stays powered on and can
           | "wake" the application processor into booting when a call/sms
           | is received.
        
           | lytedev wrote:
           | Yes. Additionally, why would you want this specifically? I
           | think OP just wants better battery life?
        
             | anonymouskimmer wrote:
             | If you're going as basic as OP wants you can get 10+ days
             | on a typical phone battery regardless, just by implementing
             | battery saver. I've done it with both smart and feature
             | phones.
        
           | jancsika wrote:
           | Damn, I guess I unwittingly revealed my phonecall
           | preferences. :)
           | 
           | Edit: Isn't there some kind of wake-on-lan on arm chips that
           | the Baseband OS could use?
        
         | narag wrote:
         | 1 .. 7 are must haves for me and also:
         | 
         | * I can program the phone to block numbers and send http
         | requests over the net.
         | 
         | * Tethering, even if I need a USB cable for that.
         | 
         | * I can record calls. Both sides.
         | 
         | If I can't program it, I'd just buy a dumbphone. If I can
         | tether, I can do without anything else, just carrying a tablet
         | or small laptop.
         | 
         | For me, all this is obvious, but it doesn't seem the same for
         | others.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | maratc wrote:
         | The meaning of the word "phone" has shifted in the recent
         | years, and your requirements are a good representation of what
         | that word meant in circa 2007; recently however the
         | requirements 1-8 have so little relevance that it's possible to
         | operate a device without satisfying any of them [0]. The new
         | meaning of the word is an expanded version of #9 whereas it's a
         | connected gadget that runs apps from the well-stocked built-in
         | store.
         | 
         | Any newcomer, Linux or not, would immediately face the most
         | obvious problem, which is a complete lack of a well-stocked
         | store.
         | 
         | [0] I sometimes take my smartphone abroad for a combination of
         | offline Google Maps and WiFi hopping.
        
           | LorenDB wrote:
           | Android devices could push something like
           | https://gitlab.com/AuroraOSS/AuroraStore or even F-Droid to
           | get a preinstalled store that's not completely evil.
           | 
           | For Linux devices, if you have a powerful enough phone
           | (Pine64, can we please have a _really_ beefy PinePhone?), you
           | could bundle Waydroid + Aurora /F-Droid.
        
           | AdamJacobMuller wrote:
           | Exactly true.
           | 
           | From the original list, I really don't care at all about
           | 1/2/3 (phone calls) and only care vaguely about SMS.
           | 
           | My requirements are for an excellent browser and an app store
           | with support for messaging platforms
           | (telegram/signal/skype/slack/teams/etc) and email support,
           | everything else is either "extra" or an outright distraction
           | I'd probably be better off without (twitter, reddit, etc).
        
         | coldpie wrote:
         | You can still buy flip phones, seems like that meets all of
         | your requirements?
        
         | chongli wrote:
         | What do #1-#8 have to do with Linux? As far as I can tell,
         | nothing. A flip phone will cover your use case nicely.
         | 
         | Personally, I have no interest in making phone calls. 99% of
         | the time when my phone rings it's a spam call. The other 1% of
         | the time it's one of my uncles or aunts, all of whom are in
         | their 80's or thereabouts. After they pass on, I will have no
         | reason at all to make a phone call, except perhaps to book a
         | doctor's appointment with some doctor who hasn't switched over
         | to online booking.
        
           | TheCraiggers wrote:
           | > Personally, I have no interest in making phone calls.
           | 
           | You say that now, but wait until you need to dial 911.
        
             | pwenzel wrote:
             | Cops won't show up anyway
        
               | chongli wrote:
               | Cop showed up at my house 2 days ago at 2am. Roommate
               | apparently sleep-dialed 911.
        
           | anonymouskimmer wrote:
           | > A flip phone will cover your use case nicely.
           | 
           | Before switching to a smartphone in late 2020 various multi-
           | message SMS texts dropped the middle message for some unknown
           | reason.
           | 
           | > After they pass on, I will have no reason at all to make a
           | phone call
           | 
           | You may think so, but things pop up. Moving states required
           | calling my insurance company. I've made a couple of emergency
           | calls.
        
         | Mochsner wrote:
         | Would muditaOS qualify?
        
         | charukiewicz wrote:
         | > Librem 5 fails #5
         | 
         | Where's the Librem 5 antenna? Can you link to reports of
         | reception issues stemming from this?
        
         | awiesenhofer wrote:
         | So basically KaiOS/FirefoxOS? Seems like every Nokia/HMD
         | feature phone should fit all your points nowadays.
        
       | recvonline wrote:
       | Related: https://drewdevault.com/2023/06/16/Mobile-linux-
       | retrospectiv...
        
       | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
       | > Remove the search engine setting. Hard-code the search engine
       | to Google
       | 
       | How is that not monopoly behavior? Why don't they just put an
       | iMessage alternative in Android at that point?
        
         | wombat-man wrote:
         | isn't that just RCS?
        
           | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
           | No. I've read that Google is not allowed put iMessage-like
           | features into the stock messaging app because it would run
           | afoul of antitrust. Ironically, Apple can do this because
           | they own everything.
        
             | agloe_dreams wrote:
             | This is silly and false. Google's default android Messaging
             | app in the US on all carriers is Google Messages and it
             | uses RCS to do exactly what you are saying they can't do.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
               | Have you ever booted AOSP on a device or VM? There is a
               | messaging app that is part of AOSP that is _not_ Google
               | Messages
        
               | kelnos wrote:
               | What does that have to do with anything, though? Google
               | Messages is available to any Android OEM that passes
               | certification, assuming they want it. Certainly Messages
               | wouldn't be a part of AOSP, as Messages isn't open
               | source.
               | 
               | Google Messages _is_ the stock messaging app, and
               | contains iMessage-like features. AOSP is mostly
               | irrelevant. It 's not clear why iMessage-like features
               | would be an antitrust issue for Google anyway.
        
               | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
               | https://android.googlesource.com/platform/packages/apps/M
               | ess...
        
               | muppetman wrote:
               | Yes that Google haven't updated for years and is at this
               | point abandoned[1].
               | 
               | 1: https://twitter.com/MishaalRahman/status/1669026188399
               | 112192
        
             | subarctic wrote:
             | It sounds like Google's way around this is what they've
             | been doing for years at this point: slowly replacing AOSP
             | builtins like the stock messaging app with separate,
             | proprietary Google apps.
        
             | richiebful1 wrote:
             | I'm not sure what the stock messaging app is anymore, but
             | "Messages by Google" accomplishes what we're talking about
             | [1]
             | 
             | 1. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google
             | .and...
        
               | muppetman wrote:
               | That's a closed source proprietary Google app that relies
               | on Google Play Services to work.
        
               | subarctic wrote:
               | Just like the rest of android
        
               | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
               | Right, I don't believe that's part of AOSP but is a
               | Google app. I don't believe all phones ship with that
               | though my Pixel does. Do Samsung phones ship with that?
        
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