[HN Gopher] A complete guide to getting what you want (2018)
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A complete guide to getting what you want (2018)
Author : shsachdev
Score : 182 points
Date : 2023-06-18 10:23 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.raptitude.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.raptitude.com)
| [deleted]
| mhb wrote:
| _This is a long post - 2200 words_
|
| Alternative: Watch Netlfix series "Arnold"
| znpy wrote:
| Could you elaborate a bit more on that?
| mhb wrote:
| I thought the article was long-winded and banal - offering
| advice which either seemed obvious or more succinctly
| available elsewhere often in the form of aphorisms.
|
| In contrast, the series, Arnold, about how Arnold
| Schwarzenegger set and achieved his goals as a bodybuilder,
| actor and politician was well done, fascinating and
| inspiring.
| morelisp wrote:
| So instead of a "long" <10 min read, watch a multi-hour video?
| readyplayernull wrote:
| > Arnold Schwarzenegger stepped down after seven years as
| California's governor on Monday, leaving the state struggling
| with a fiscal crisis that has pushed it to the brink of
| bankruptcy.
|
| https://www.france24.com/en/20110104-schwarzenegger-steps-do...
| rzzzt wrote:
| How's California doing since then?
| SMAAART wrote:
| Interesting article, and a good one.
|
| It should be expanded to include the capability to discern
| between:
|
| * Wants, needs, must have(s): too often people seek wants and
| disregard needs.
|
| * Emotionally-driven wants vs rationally-driven wants: today's
| world hacks people's mind to make only emotionally-driven
| decisions, to their own detriment.
| rubicon33 wrote:
| I wonder how do you avoid a situation in mid-life where you've
| achieved accomplished, etc, and now really lack a strong desire
| for anything? How do you find your motivation?
| mahathu wrote:
| That's when you chill out and enjoy life for a bit
| randomdata wrote:
| Can you throw the lasting effects of your achievements (e.g.
| money, relationships, etc.) away? That may provide incentive to
| start anew.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| I don't know, but as I approach my mid-life, I'd happily trade
| your experience for my experience, which is that I've achieved
| _shit all_ , and my time is running short.
| PaulRobinson wrote:
| Another way to getting what you want of course, is to think about
| what you really want and change that to something you can achieve
| almost immediately. The article alludes to this:
|
| > _Do you want to be self-employed? Or do you just need some time
| off from your normally-tolerable day job? Do you truly want
| washboard abs, or just to see an energetic, healthy person in the
| mirror for once?_
|
| And:
|
| > _There can also be things you think you want (a law degree; a
| Walden-like shack in the woods) that you mistake for what you
| really want (your father's approval; a less obnoxious boss),
| which may be vastly easier, or vastly more difficult, to
| acquire._
|
| You know what most people want? _Happiness_. _Acceptance_. To not
| have to deal with people who don 't love or respect them, and to
| spend time with people who do.
|
| Here at HN, the personality type that is most dominant is the
| maximiser - trying to increase productivity, income, live life a
| little more fuller or longer. Fine.
|
| And yet, regularly, a thread emerges asking what it's like to
| ditch the progress so far and change direction. "How hard is it
| go give up being a Senior Java engineer and become a farmer?", is
| a question that will garner answers, attention and upvotes.
|
| It's possible you've chosen a career or lifestyle or group of
| friends that aren't very _you_.
|
| My take is don't choose goals - don't try and decide on the
| destination of what you want. Instead, choose processes, choose a
| way of living that makes you happy, and make small changes right
| now.
|
| Another way of thinking about this is: _don 't choose outputs,
| choose inputs_.
|
| Choose your processes, your inputs, what happens when you wake up
| each day, the values you stay true to. Don't try and choose
| outputs and work backwards from them. Trust me, I've tried both,
| and the latter is miserable - you don't even get to be happy for
| long when you achieve a goal. The article touches on that, but I
| can't stress this enough:
|
| When you achieve something that has taken you a long time to
| achieve, the pleasure of doing so lasts a short while. What
| you'll focus on when you look back is how you got there, so
| choose that carefully.
|
| I'd also advise carefully considering how to measure progress.
| You might think you want to be rich (a goal), and think you need
| the lifestyle to get rich (the process), but you might actually
| just want financial independence - living a contented life
| spending less than you bring in - and they are not the same
| thing. You can have the latter without the former (especially as
| a tech worker), with a very different process to the one you'd
| choose to "get rich".
|
| You might think you want to weigh X pounds or kgs, but you might
| actually want the things that you think are exclusive to that but
| maybe are not: better fitting clothes, being more physically
| attractive, better health. There things you can do today -
| different ways of being - that contribute immediately. Cut down
| on smoking, recreational drugs (including alcohol) and spending
| money on better clothes rather than takeaways means you'll be
| better tomorrow than you were today with just a change of
| direction on where you put your time, money and effort.
|
| You might think you want to be on the front cover of Wired and
| touted as the next hot thing, but perhaps - like many of the
| people who have had that experience - what you actually needed
| was more people around you who like you just as you are right
| now.
|
| That doesn't mean you should stop looking for personal growth and
| the big goals. Sure, get rich, get sexy, be likeable and get
| respected, do that work. I'm just saying the journey counts at
| least as much as the destination, and the journey can start the
| moment you get to the end of this sentence.
| gestatingAI wrote:
| > Another way of thinking about this is: don't choose outputs,
| choose inputs. What you'll focus on when you look back is how
| you got there, so choose that carefully. I'm just saying the
| journey counts at least as much as the destination, and the
| journey can start the moment you get to the end of this
| sentence.
|
| Interestingly this is a staple of Eastern philosophy that I
| heard growing up. The advise was to focus on our actions but
| not the fruit of our actions.
| InCityDreams wrote:
| >My take is don't choose goals - don't try and decide on the
| destination of what you want. Instead, choose processes, choose
| a way of living that makes you happy, and make small changes
| right now.
|
| Completely agree, though my 'word' differs - I use 'system'. I
| didn't set out to lose 6kg of myself - I decide to walk more
| and I bought a bicycle, and I use it. The weight fell off me
| because of the system...choose a system, not a goal.
|
| you can't fail with a system, because it's not measureable as
| success or fail. Only lost 5kg in three months? Fail. Eating
| well and exercising will get you somewhere
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Okay, but what, if not promise of future returns, is making
| you stick to a system that's emotionally costly?
|
| For example, "walking more" or "cycling more" is definitely
| going to help lose weight in a gradual fashion, but the
| reason I am walking the amount I am and not cycling at all,
| is because a) I find these activities boring, and b) I have
| many more interesting/important (to me) things to do with
| that time. I can't see myself engaging in an activity I
| dislike - cycling (or most outdoor activities) - unless I do
| it for a reason that's interesting/important enough to
| displace something else I'm already doing. Losing weight is
| such a reason, but that reason is also _a goal_.
| PaulRobinson wrote:
| What would it take for you to find walking interesting?
|
| I didn't used to love walking, until I found a reason to.
|
| In urban areas I looked up and started noticing things. I
| researched buildings, and local geography.
|
| In rural areas, I started figuring out bird calls and
| breeds, started understanding the trees and flora around
| me.
|
| I decided to use that time to get curious. And now, I love
| walking.
|
| If you think "sure, I have this rough goal of exercising
| more, but it sure as heck bores me", deciding to focus on
| the goal just means every time you fail at doing more
| exercise you a) are just as far away as you were before and
| b) are now blaming yourself for not being disciplined
| enough.
|
| How about you choose some inputs that you know roughly
| align to that goal, but you choose inputs that you can get
| motivated by?
|
| Perhaps going to the gym bores you, so fine, don't go.
| Perhaps your exercise is playing sport, or swimming, or
| walking and exploring the World around you, or perhaps it's
| just getting a standing desk. Just pick something and try
| and it, and then if it doesn't work, think about why and
| what to change and try something else.
| dinvlad wrote:
| The prevailing school of thought in modern psychology even
| recommends to prioritize values/ideals over goals. Unlike the
| latter, the former is an inexhaustible resource. You can always
| be kinder, more honest/authentic etc, and no external
| circumstance can take this away from you. Goal-setting is still
| important (especially in the short term), but only as a means
| to live according to your values.
|
| Unfortunately, we've been conditioned by the modern society to
| prioritize goals over ideals and then be
| unhappy/frustrated/annoyed when we either don't "get what we
| want" or do but feel unfulfilled because it didn't bring us the
| satisfaction we sought, or it was too short-lived, and now we
| want "more".
| [deleted]
| buttocks wrote:
| If you're going to marry, marry well. I'd wager that 90% of not
| getting what you want in adulthood relates to compromise or
| deferral to your spouse.
| tleilaxu wrote:
| Certainly feeling this right now.
|
| I do not have parents to give advice, and no "marriage role
| models" to speak of. This has lead me into a situation where I
| was poached into marriage and used to fulfil another's needs -
| one who does not take my own needs into account.
|
| It's going to be a mess to get out of, but lesson learned...
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| This is incredibly common and detrimental, to the point that
| red flags should be taught in school.
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| Have you brought this up with your spouse (at a good time, of
| course)? If you're thinking of torpedoing the relationship
| anyway, might as well risk offending/upsetting her.
|
| I don't know a thing about you, but there are plenty of
| people (especially people who have bullied, who I suspect
| would be over-represented here) who aren't necessarily
| surrounded by toxic people but fail to advocate for
| themselves and communicate what they need.
|
| If that describes you, then you're going to be "taken
| advantage of" by everyone, even people that don't want to
| have that sort of relationship.
|
| I've become more assertive in my relationship over the last
| couple of years and it's done wonders. There's a guy who
| works for me that needs to do the same too...
| thoughtpeddler wrote:
| You are not alone. It takes strength to leave that situation.
| There was a reason you got married in the first place to this
| first, so the change that occurs is often shocking and
| unexpected. Cut your losses sooner rather than later, you'll
| be eternally grateful for it.
| number6 wrote:
| Can relate. Love and light to you
| belter wrote:
| That is a somewhat condescending statement, since it does not
| account for how your partner _might_ change over the years.
| randomdata wrote:
| Condescending requires some kind of emotional component. The
| above is stated in a "matter of fact" way, void of emotion.
|
| It is clear that most people go to lengths to try and find
| the right partner to marry. I am sure there are exceptions,
| but "this first person I just ran into walking down the
| street will do" is not the norm. Even if the first person you
| ran into on the street is who you marry, there will
| traditionally be a vetting (i.e. dating) process first to
| make sure you still believe it is the right choice after
| closer inspection. It is safe to say that the importance of
| finding the right person is generally accepted as an
| imperative to marriage.
|
| Will mistakes be made? Sure. Nothing in life is guaranteed.
| Things happen. Random chance bites everyone in some way
| eventually. But that doesn't mean it won't affect things.
| dlivingston wrote:
| Can you expand on this more?
| yboris wrote:
| Y'all heard of _polyamory_? There are better models out there
| than staying only with one person and denying yourself the
| beauty of an expanded heart.
| shmde wrote:
| > Y'all heard of polyamory?
|
| Heard of it, but I don't indulge in degeneracy.
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| I have no interest in polyamory but if you're going to call
| it degeneracy you should explain the reasoning.
| weakfish wrote:
| This is unhelpful, unconstructive and rude.
| pizzafeelsright wrote:
| Have you found any successful configurations that last beyond
| 5 years? I know multiple families destroyed by such
| endeavors. I would caution against the division of affection.
| At some point a hierarchy is established whether by intent or
| by necessity.
| altruios wrote:
| >> Have you found any successful configurations that last
| beyond 5 years?
|
| Several, in the tens of dozens.
|
| This question keeps getting 'told at' the polygamous
| community.
|
| It is true, people break up, people in polygamous relations
| have more breakups because - they involve more people -
| more people get broken up.
|
| And yeah, it is harder: one bad seed ruins the bunch, so to
| speak, so poly break up happen more often, sure...
|
| This kind of 'question' is showing preconceived notions and
| bigotry that all polygamous relationships are unhealthy.
|
| >> At some point a hierarchy is established whether by
| intent or by necessity.
|
| Some people are very anti-hierarchy, and despite your
| assumptions: hierarchy is not a foregone conclusion.
|
| >> I know multiple families destroyed by such endeavors
|
| If you start off mono and bring N+1: you're going to have a
| bad time (more than likely). Poly doesn't fix a broken
| relationship, and it wasn't poly that was the problem (if
| poly was being proposed as a solution).
|
| >> I would caution against the division of affection.
|
| I would caution against withholding love from the world for
| hierarchical reasons.
|
| What's the consequences of withholding affection?
|
| A colder/harsher world.
| [deleted]
| qingcharles wrote:
| This is hard. Often problems don't surface until a ways into
| the marriage. Both First Wife and I would certainly agree that
| the persons that appeared during our divorce were completely
| hidden to us both before and during our marriage.
| bob1029 wrote:
| This is why I stayed out of the game. I saw so many unhappy
| outcomes in my social circle that I figured my chances were not
| going to be very good.
|
| The typical family lifestyle is not for everyone and the
| propaganda pushing it is very strong from day 0. It took me
| about a decade to get over the feeling of "I am a piece of
| shit" for not participating in the circus that most of us think
| is perfectly normal and/or mandatory.
| lisper wrote:
| Ron's second law: the hardest part of getting what you want is
| figuring out what it is.
| Madmallard wrote:
| The strategy for getting the thing in question nearly always
| makes all the difference for very worthwhile things and this
| article very much glosses over that fact.
| guy98238710 wrote:
| While this sort of general self-help advice is deservedly
| ridiculed*, it does have some application in education. Kids
| often have no idea what they want or where they are going. It's
| too personal and subjective for schools to teach. Parents find it
| overbearing and invasive. Nevertheless, just asking kids to come
| up with ideas can get them thinking. Short-term plans that are
| followed through give them confidence that achievement is
| something they can systematically work on.
|
| * If you are wondering why people laugh at this, it's because
| goal-setting and high-level planning is so much easier than
| actually doing something, which is where it all fails. See also
| TODO bankruptcy.
| xyzelement wrote:
| > Quite often a reasonable, achievable, and worthwhile desire
| goes unpursued because we have a simultaneous desire to not
| pursue it. When we say something is "impossible" or "too hard" or
| "not in the cards," that's a clue.
|
| This resonates. Many who are stuck frustrated not getting what
| they want have talked themselves out of trying to get it to begin
| with.
|
| A good another clue is 3rd party attribution. "My life is bad
| because of bitches/billionaires/Mexicans/whatever" - I've never
| heard anyone talk like that while also maximizing what's in their
| power to change.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Ask for the moon and you'll be surprised by how often you get
| it.
| asimpletune wrote:
| Don't forget people overvaluing talent as one of the main
| excuses while minimizing what they can control.
| gonzo41 wrote:
| Always bet on grit. It's a learnable skill and you never lose
| it.
| IggleSniggle wrote:
| I'd argue you will almost certainly lose it if you never
| loose it ;-). Loose it or lose it, I always say
| eastbound wrote:
| It's a self-truthing statement. As in, everyone who doesn't
| agree with you is also excluded from your criteria. So from
| your point of view, you are absolutely right.
|
| It goes like this:
|
| - Papa deer: "Remember son, you have the power to make objects
| move by thought. If you see a car rolling towards you, STARE at
| it straight in the headlights and concentrate and move it with
| your mind."
|
| - Son deer: "Isn't that how grandpa died?"
|
| - Papa deer: "He didn't believe enough."
|
| So I'll say it straight away: Some people, no matter how they
| work to build a startup, are blocked from success by external
| factors, on which they can do nothing. And I can say that
| because I'm a millionaire twice from startups, and that
| gift/set of skills/learnings/factors will never dawn on some
| people.
|
| Of course I'm definitely not saying that because I'm single and
| have no talent in women ;) But I'm tired of "Just put your mind
| to it, and if it doesn't work, it's because you didn't try
| enough." No. I irritate women. I can see it in their eyes, and
| there is no way around that (at least until someone tells me
| what my defect is, assuming it's a defect I can work upon, but
| everyone lies to me saying "try more". No, papa deer).
| safety1st wrote:
| > Some people, no matter how they work to build a startup,
| are blocked from success by external factors, on which they
| can do nothing.
|
| What are the factors specifically? How are you defining
| success? My definition is "You built a profitable business"
| and there are so many small businesses doing this across the
| world, I can't really think of external factors that are true
| deal breakers except perhaps very bad health, it's hard to
| start a business when you're bedridden. Millions of people
| are starting businesses all the time in incredibly limited
| situations like a street food cart in a slum in India and
| succeeding.
| bjelkeman-again wrote:
| I think it is fair to say that there is a difference
| between starting a business you can survive on and one
| which will make you a millionaire. These often get mixed,
| especially on HN.
| Mezzie wrote:
| Not who you responded to, but I have a disability (Multiple
| Sclerosis) that pretty much precludes me from building a
| successful business. Starting a successful, profitable
| business usually requires both working around the clock at
| first in order to establish it and the ability to forego
| health insurance/healthcare for a period of time. If I'm
| lucky I have 10 functioning hours a day and I need to make
| money to not starve so 8 is taken up with a full time job
| (luckily I walk 5 minutes to work so no commute). I also
| still need to shower, eat, and exercise to keep my physical
| condition from deteriorating. On bad days I'm sneaking in
| naps at work because I have less than 8 hours of good
| functioning. Weekends are usually spent recovering
| (sleep/migraine).
|
| Basically anything that eats up your time. Disability is
| just an example problem that nobody can blame on us.
|
| Edit: It doesn't need to be severe, which is why I mention
| it. I'm actually _better off_ than 95% of MS patients.
| FredPret wrote:
| While anyone might not be able to hit the big time, most
| skills are learnable / improvable.
| daveed wrote:
| This story kind of misses the point, and there's a whole lot
| that goes into "try" and "try harder".
|
| Not everyone can do anything, but I think any individual
| person can do a lot. But are they trying and are they
| thinking about how they're trying?
| EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote:
| CA is not a place to get laid. Go East, young man, go East
| and grow a pair.
| TurkishPoptart wrote:
| What, like Boston? Way overpriced, no parking, shit
| weather....
| eastbound wrote:
| The incredible thing is, this map has stayed the same for
| 131 years now. SF has men:
| https://www.jonathansoma.com/singles/#4/7/2/0
| allenu wrote:
| It's funny because the idea of "if you didn't succeed, you
| didn't try hard enough" is a cornerstone of the self-help
| industry and the charlatans peddling various self-improvement
| systems. If anybody follows their system and doesn't succeed,
| well, they either didn't try hard enough or they really
| didn't follow the plan as it was laid out. It's a foolproof
| way to show the next sucker that your system works.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Also the cornerstone of recommending diet and exercise as
| health advice.
| donkey_oaty wrote:
| Are diet and exercise not good health advice?
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Are most advice in self-help books not good
| productivity/happiness advice?
|
| The problem with both is that people who _can_ follow
| them for effect already are following them. So in
| practice, diet and exercise is what I call "fuck off
| advice": the person you give it to, should they believe
| it, will try and try and not see much effect, and
| eventually fail - but the process will take 3-6 months or
| more, during which they won't bother you with their
| problems, and at the end of it, they'll blame themselves
| for not being good enough, and perhaps even see you as a
| good person who tried to help.
| robocat wrote:
| > It's funny because the idea of "if you didn't succeed,
| you didn't try hard enough" is a cornerstone of the self-
| help industry and the charlatans peddling various self-
| improvement systems
|
| For example " HOW TO IDENTIFY & REMOVE ABUNDANCE BLOCKS FOR
| MANIFESTATION"https://selfmadeladies.com/overcome-
| abuandance-blocks-faster...
|
| An aquantance had paid for a course on manifestation: she
| talked a lot about "blocks" when I questioned her about
| what stops manifestation from working!
|
| "Blocks" are definitely blame-the-victim e.g. "you didn't
| believe strongly enough so your cancer wasn't cured".
| User23 wrote:
| > Of course I'm definitely not saying that because I'm single
| and have no talent in women
|
| That you are able to make an honest self-assessment really
| bodes well for you. While a lot of the pick up artist stuff
| is skeezy, anyone who has spent time in bar and nightclub
| culture has seen the general principles in action. The human
| mating market is a real thing, and both men and women have
| various patterns of behavior that can be observed and
| learned. That knowledge can be used to be a misogynistic cad,
| but it can also be used to form and strengthen true loving
| relationships.
|
| There are a lot of hucksters and scammers in the space
| unfortunately, so you have to prudently sift through the crap
| to get the useful information which is unfortunate when
| you're not entirely sure what the useful information is. One
| very reputable place to start though is with Robert
| Cialdini's books. He focuses more on persuasion in general,
| but he's legitimate and correct. It's really important to
| understand concepts like frame, assuming the sale, revealed
| preference, and especially social proof.
|
| > I irritate women. I can see it in their eyes, and there is
| no way around that
|
| Again, the fact that you're observant and honest enough to
| recognize this means that I am nearly certain you can
| mitigate or remedy whatever defect or defects that you have.
| The simplest although depending on your disposition perhaps
| not the easiest approach is to watch what men who are
| successful with women do and don't do, and then try to figure
| out possible things you're doing or not doing that are
| repulsing women. At that point it's just a matter of A/B
| testing with a large number of women, which can easily be
| done in any large city with a night life. It can be rough at
| first, but after a few times you realize the sun still shines
| and brightly and the ocean is just as lovely no matter how
| many girls reject you and rejection loses its sting.
|
| And of course since you're a man of means hiring a coach
| could be a very good idea, assuming you can find one who is
| trustworthy and ruthlessly honest.
| nython wrote:
| It took me several frustrating years to figure it out, but
| eventually getting visibly fit and well groomed gave me
| enough leeway to bisect the bugs in my interpersonal
| communication protocols and algorithms.
| inconceivable wrote:
| i also sold my startup to a good outcome and ran the business
| very profitably for years and i agree that there are some
| things that can not be taught - but that doesn't mean they
| can't be learned if you have the right mental models. at one
| point i was terrible at dating / women but over the years
| i've gotten a lot better than where i started. and yes, there
| are some people who are just hopeless because they refuse to
| let go of weird mental hangups that aren't based in reality.
|
| here are some personal observations which you may or may not
| agree with.
|
| 1. you need to be in reasonable shape. pay no attention to
| the exceptions to this rule, they don't apply to you. so get
| fit however you want. the more the better. nobody wants to
| fuck a slug.
|
| 2. you don't NEED money, but it certainly doesn't hurt. truly
| not caring about bills/expenses exudes something you can't
| fake. broke dudes can truly not care about bills also, from
| the other side. counter-intuitive, right? if you were broke,
| could you fake it convincingly? no, probably not. because the
| exceptions don't apply to you.
|
| 3. if you show an ounce, a smidge, one iota, a mere hint of
| neediness, you're fuckin' GONE. again, pay no attention to
| the exceptions because they don't apply to you. this can be
| anything from needing to text/communicate way too often, or
| weighing other peoples' opinions too much, or being unsure of
| how to deal with a situation. if you're confused about life
| just keep it to yourself and ask your male friends or older
| guys. being confident and wrong is an easy fix if you're a
| fast learner. being a wishy washy dork is unforgiveable.
|
| 4. learn how to dress well in your own style. the exceptions
| don't apply to you. everyone has their own style so there's
| not much to say here other than make sure everything fits.
|
| 5. being good at sex matters a lot, or at least not terrible.
| you need a solid baseline upon which to improve. this may
| seem like a catch-22 because it is. catch-22 is the base
| layer of reality of the male condition. if you want success
| you need to figure it out, just like in business. just
| fucking figure it out, smart guy. the exceptions don't apply
| to you.
|
| 6. height and race matters a lot. if you're short or not
| white you need to work harder at everything, unless you are
| exceptional, which you clearly are not. whether or not this
| is worth it is up to you. if the threshold for effort is
| deemed to be too much, that's a valid response to a skewed
| market. just know that every other guy out there is hoping
| you give up.
|
| 7. a woman can break up with you or dump you or ghost you for
| absolutely no reason at all even if you are the perfect ideal
| person on paper. this is a non-deterministic field of
| outcomes. if you get upset at this, you need to grow up.
|
| 8. persistence in the face of overwhelming odds against you
| is how you succeed in business, it applies here also. some
| are lucky, they are exceptional, and you are not.
| barbarr wrote:
| Just my N=1 here, but I've actually run the self-
| improvement gamut and got results out of it - had a year
| where I went from never having held hands with a girl to
| sleeping around quite a bit. I think the self-improvement
| type of vibe tends to attract girls who are more into short
| term things, which leads to burnout. By this I mean, if you
| are a guy who looks very good/masculine, are good at
| flirting, etc but just are not the type of guy that a girl
| would want to bring home or show to friends due to some
| immediately-visible perceived deficiency (like race,
| height, etc.), you become typecast as the "experiment"
| (i.e. an easily-accessible alternative to what they
| normally go for, a one-time thing), the "rebound guy" to
| get over an ex, or part of a girl's "exploratory phase",
| etc. - you aren't a priority for her and she cares less
| about you than the already-little amount you might care
| about her.
|
| After getting burned a few times I realized that what I
| "wanted" was to sleep with a lot of girls, but what I
| "actually wanted" was to sleep with a lot of girls who
| _want me more than I want them_ (i.e. an egotistical drive)
| - emphasis on the "want me more than I want them" part.
| It's an important distinction, and the fantasy is to be the
| guy who all the "good girls" (i.e. the relationship-
| oriented girls who don't easily fall for guys) fall deeply
| in love with and would do anything for but can't pin down,
| and this narrative is pursued as a goal because it provides
| a sense of security ("there will always be people who love
| me"). In reality you just attract many girls who might not
| even want a relationship, and that fantasy sense of
| security will cease to exist. Even if you do find the
| fabled "good girl" or if one of the short-term minded girls
| falls for you, you will be conditioned to be skeptical and
| doubtful of their long-term relationship capacity because
| of your experiences with the other girls, thus erasing any
| of the sense of security that you initially sought.
|
| Also, in the end it seemed that the "want me more than I
| want them" thing was actually _more_ important than
| sleeping with the girls. So when I found out that the girls
| I was sleeping with wanted me in a relationship capacity
| less than the admittedly close-to-zero amount I wanted
| them, it was really demoralizing, as I 'd inevitably end up
| with this weird shitty feeling of being "just another guy"
| a girl slept with and it did not feel good at all. Then I
| realized that my behaviors probably also led girls to feel
| hurt in this way, and the whole exercise between the
| genders is kind of futile overall and people are hurting
| each other over something as trivial as ego and a misguided
| search for security.
|
| Now I just kind of maintain the self-improvements from
| before, as they've added great value to my life, but I
| don't actively seek out dating, going to clubs, etc. I
| figure that if something pointing to a relationship comes
| about organically I will definitely be fully open to it,
| but it is not as much of a priority at the moment.
| xyzelement wrote:
| You sound a little nuts but I appreciate the candor! One
| thing you are completely missing here (and to be fair,
| may not be for you) is the actual benefits of a
| relationship - as opposed to quantifying the ego-boost of
| a hookup or whatever.
|
| Like, I enjoyed my slutty single says but I LOVE father's
| day with my two kids and wife even more :) I don't
| measure the "value add" that my wife brought me in units
| of her desire for me or something weird like that - I
| look at the life I am enjoying and could not have without
| her.
|
| As I said this may not be for you but a mention of this
| was completely absent altogether and that was odd for me.
| barbarr wrote:
| Yea, I guess I forgot to also mention that what I
| "actually actually" wanted was that sense of security,
| and I was looking in the wrong place for it. Though once
| that sense of security is there, it's possible to engage
| in and enjoy relationships in a "normal" way, rather than
| from the point of view of "gaining points" to try and
| acquire that sense of security.
|
| The whole episode opened my eyes that I was not only
| doing this "points counting" in a dating context, but
| also in a friendship context, e.g. trying to find friends
| who reach out to me more than I reach out to them (in
| pursuit of a similar type of security), rather than just
| relaxing and enjoying the friendships in a natural way.
| I'd say things are much better now.
| inconceivable wrote:
| these are good points. i will say that people who tend to
| mention on the internet their lack of success with women
| are basically starting at zero so bombarding them with
| this stuff merely shifts the "overton window" (this is an
| imperfect analogy) to the right so they start getting
| some improvement. their cumulative 'score' is just so far
| in the weeds they need all the points they can get. there
| is no room for nuance when you're in the hole. it's like
| cooking up some super custom individual muscle
| bodybuilding workout plan for someone who is 400 pounds
| and eats chocolate bars all day.
|
| more well adjusted/successful men are "deficient" (this
| term is used loosely) in fewer of these categories and
| may not need to change much from baseline, or at all. the
| zero dudes need to level up basically everything in order
| to even have a snowball's chance in hell. i.e. a tall
| jacked rich dude can get away with being an emotionally
| needy text-happy dork sometimes. it might even be
| endearing in a "i can fix him" kind of way.
|
| the most important thing is for guys who WANT to improve
| (not everyone really gives a shit, which is fine) the
| most important thing to understand is that you CAN
| improve, and society's bullshit platitudes, dismissals of
| concern, and implications creepiness of wanting to
| improve are just that - bullshit, deeply dishonest,
| deceitful, and fucking cruel.
|
| to make matters worse there are all sorts of con artists
| who prey on younger guys so hearing this kind of stuff
| from a non-sales-oriented pov on a place like HN is
| important.
| theaussiestew wrote:
| The kind of relationship you described sounds terrible to
| be in. I hope this isn't the norm.
| nython wrote:
| That's the evolutionary leetcode portion of the
| interview.
| inconceivable wrote:
| [flagged]
| dmichulke wrote:
| Extremely uncomfortable and true, like swallowing the red
| pill.
|
| Have you found a way of finding similarly minded people in
| life?
| [deleted]
| 888666 wrote:
| As a woman, men who are focused on stuff like this (beyond
| basic physical and financial health) scare and repel me.
| inconceivable wrote:
| yeah, guys working on improving themselves is pretty
| creepy, especially when they talk about it on the
| internet. and how would you know they're trying to become
| a more confident, well dressed, decisive and assertive
| version of themselves, anyway?
|
| 9. never tell women you are working on this stuff
| actively because it is extremely creepy to them that you
| are trying to pull yourself up from being unattractive.
| above comment is saying so, in plain english. the very
| thought that you would want to improve yourself is
| _repulsive_. general rule of thumb is just shut the fuck
| up about it and avoid over-sharing.
|
| "just so you know, i'm working on not being a needy dork
| that texts you 24/7. i hope to be more attractive to you
| by working on my ability to make decisions for myself
| without being devastated when someone tells me their
| opinion of me. do you like me more now? how about now?
| how about now?"
| patrick451 wrote:
| And what would you rather they do? Just "be themselves"?
| That advice is one of the primary root causes of the
| incel epidemic.
| criddell wrote:
| Are you saying you irritate women and it's due to external
| factors over which you have no control?
|
| I would bet a good therapist or dating coach could help you.
| eastbound wrote:
| I irritate women, it may or may not be under my control,
| for example if it's due to my race then it's not, if it's
| due to societal cliches then it's not; and for what is
| under my control, I have seen for about $10k of
| psychologists and I was never told the defect I have,
| probably because that would discourage me, instead they say
| there's always a chance, never try never know, ask them out
| and blah blah blah.
|
| I'd love if someone told me my truth, but until then, I
| can't do much.
|
| Granted I didn't try a dating coach, I don't know where to
| find them, their answers will always be "pay me $100 and
| believe in yourself", and yes I'm very afraid that if I
| find out a dating coach helps, I'll have lost my life for
| nothing, but it's impossible to talk about it because no-
| one ever accepts to envision that, yes, when you reach 40
| without capability to date regularly, well you're fucked,
| I'd commit terrible things to make people admit that I've
| lost my life if I could,
|
| Why can't people accept that, yes, it's hard, I see uglier
| people than me succeed, I see total losers succeed, so yes,
| the only artifact I see is:
|
| I - irritate - women, they become between sarcastic and
| mean to me after knowing me for a few weeks.
|
| Could even be that I don't ask early enough, that I don't
| sexualize them enough, I'm always too careful about not
| stalking them and ensuring they don't feel like a bag of
| meat, so maybe they're just frustrated that I don't kiss
| them on the second date. I don't know, hypothesis! but that
| would at least be a fair explanation that I could work on.
|
| Instead, the only feedback I have is, that I'm selfish or
| whatever trait that you could judge anyone with - Let them
| first, I also donate to charities way more than friends,
| I've also belonged to more charities than much more of the
| population, I've also accompanied by best enemy through
| cancer, til he died with us playing the song he himself
| composed, this asshole got the most beautiful death he
| could imagine, I mean the accusation of selfishness or
| closed-mindedness doesn't hold any cold-headed analysis.
| yibg wrote:
| I don't understand your position here. You start out
| saying some people are blocked from success and imply
| your lack of success with women is an example. Then you
| say you don't know if your lack of success is something
| you can control because no one has told you exactly what
| the issue is.
|
| Is your definition of being blocked anything that doesn't
| just happen by itself?
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| Advice: Pick a woman you trust. A co-worker, a neighbor,
| someone who knows you. Ask her straight out: "Every time
| I try to date, I wind up irritating and driving off the
| woman I'm dating. Can you tell me why?"
|
| Listen seriously and carefully to what she tells you.
| Mind you, she's not necessarily right. But she's much
| more likely to be right than a bunch of randos trying to
| diagnose you over the internet.
| xyzelement wrote:
| You've missed my point with both parts of your post, alas.
|
| I am not talking about guaranteed success, but about people
| who don't try the avenues that _are_ available to them.
|
| Like if you are a deer and your family is getting killed by
| cars, have you _tried_ not standing in the damn road?
|
| I know so many people who have an obvious next action
| available that would leave them no worse and likely better,
| but they don't try it.
|
| Which brings me to the second part of your post. What have
| you _tried_ that could potentially lead you to be less
| irritating to women? Or at least, what _could_ you try? I
| could come up with a list of 5+ things for you right now and
| I don 't even know you.
| Paul-Craft wrote:
| > I know so many people who have an obvious next action
| available that would leave them no worse and likely better,
| but they don't try it.
|
| Obvious to you, perhaps. But, who says it's obvious to
| _them?_
| xyzelement wrote:
| ... even when told.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| That's GP's point, I suppose - that people may have
| plenty of good moves available, but they've also built up
| near-instinctive defenses and repulsion fields around
| them - so even if they accidentally think or read about
| one of such options, they'll reject it as fast as it
| registers to them. It might be that the only way through
| those defenses is for someone else, or some situation, to
| force one to _consider_ the option for a few more seconds
| or minutes.
|
| I know I have this problem myself - some steps seem
| unavailable until some third party just plain tells me,
| "yes, you are actually allowed to do this, and you
| already know nothing bad will happen".
| xyzelement wrote:
| I am the GP you are referring to and - thank you for
| explaining my point perhaps better than I did :)
| calderwoodra wrote:
| I usually don't struggle to work towards my goals but totally
| agree that this resonates and this single insight made the
| article a worthwhile read.
| revskill wrote:
| Your choice: Beat the stupidity, or feed the stupidity.
| akkad33 wrote:
| Is there a guide for knowing what you want?
| jposor wrote:
| [dead]
| zvorygin wrote:
| The Effective Altruism movement is very good at convincing
| people they want what Effective Altruists want. Figuring out
| what you want is really hard. I quit my job and blew my life up
| since other people do this to soul-search and it was my best
| idea.
| rubicon33 wrote:
| Can you talk more about your experience? What led up to you
| quitting your job? How have you been feeling over the past
| few years? Post-quit, how are things?
| bonniemuffin wrote:
| I found therapy really useful for having a professional to
| guide me through the self-discovery process to identify some
| things I really want in life-- and more important, some things
| that aren't a priority for me (which I previously thought I
| really wanted). Figuring out what you DON'T want is at least as
| important as figuring out what you want.
|
| As a result, I changed my career path (slightly! not even a
| whole blow-up-your-life thing) a year ago and have been happier
| since.
|
| I also really liked the book Four Thousand Weeks, which is all
| about figuring out how you want to spend your finite lifetime.
| yboris wrote:
| I recommend you look at _Effective Altruism_. Can there be
| anything more-fulfilling or less regret-on-your-deathbed than
| helping others (while knowing you 're doing it in the most
| _effective_ way you can)?
|
| There are hobbies for sure, but when you spend 80,000 Hours in
| a career which you feel helps no one but you with your income,
| you might find mid-life there are more-important things.
|
| https://www.effectivealtruism.org/ & https://80000hours.org/
| laserlight wrote:
| > the most effective way
|
| Like spending PS15M for real estate [0].
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33903850
| TurkishPoptart wrote:
| Wasn't this Sam Bankman-Fried's schtick?
| johnfn wrote:
| Effective Altruism might be great, but I'm not convinced that
| it's a one-size-fits-all approach to solving the problem of
| what someone actually desires. In fact, doing what one feels
| one "should" do or what other people might appreciate is a
| great way to _avoid_ discovering what one actually wants.
| akkad33 wrote:
| If you feel unfulfilled in yourself how can helping others
| help you overcome that? Say you feel bitter about the way
| you've been treated all your life (shunned, bullied,
| isolated), will that rancour disappear one day because you
| helped a few people?
| mahathu wrote:
| [dead]
| theaussiestew wrote:
| I used to believe in Effective Altruism but the older I get
| the more I realise that it's just another "feel good"
| philanthropy for rich people movement with completely warped
| values around so called rationality, utilitarianism and
| technological saviour complexes. If one reads the website and
| the projects accomplished most of them are completely vapid.
| Malaria nets? AI assignment research? Some high brow research
| institute? Real help is helping people to improve their lives
| at a personal level, not saving them a couple of bucks while
| banking. To anyone reading this, don't fall for this. It's no
| wonder Sam Bankman Fried was so closely advocating for
| Effective Altruism, it's just the same old virtue signaling,
| but with a bit of rationality injected in.
| fasterik wrote:
| This seems like an overly cynical take. Malaria nets have
| saved hundreds of thousands of lives. You can be critical
| of some areas of EA, but it's hard to deny that
| organizations like Against Malaria Foundation and GiveWell
| are doing a lot of good in the world. What's wrong with
| donating with the goal of maximizing lives saved per
| dollar?
| jamilton wrote:
| What's your thought process on malaria nets being vapid?
| It's not structural change, but (statistically) saving a
| life for ~$6k (I think that's their estimate? Or was at
| some point) is amazing, and very "real".
|
| I don't have any experience with the actual culture of EA,
| but the concept and the philanthropy itself seems at least
| as good as other charities or mission-focused
| organizations.
| smath wrote:
| Super important, and vastly underrated question. The article
| does partly address this.
| jposor wrote:
| [dead]
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