[HN Gopher] Show HN: 77 Year old launches SaaS platform today. S...
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Show HN: 77 Year old launches SaaS platform today. Seeks feedback
Richard Montgomery (rm@propbox.co). I believe PropBox is the first
advertising platform to facilitate a home seller and buyer to
directly negotiate and close real estate transactions within the
platform and zero commissions entirely online. Looking for feedback
to continuously improve the product.
Author : montgomster
Score : 479 points
Date : 2023-06-16 23:45 UTC (23 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (propbox.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (propbox.co)
| marckohlbrugge wrote:
| Looks great. What type of feedback are you looking for? [1]
|
| Also curious what got you interested in building this specific
| product?
|
| Either way seems like a great start
|
| [1] https://marc.io/ask-for-feedback
| montgomster wrote:
| Great question marckohlbrugge. I will read your link a bit
| later I seem to have a lot of questions which is blowing me
| away. I am looking for critical, helpful, honest reactions. You
| cannot offend me. I am nearing six decades in real estate with
| an unusual history. Initially I was a huge supporter, and it
| took me 25 years to begin to turn contrarian. I believe real
| estate has many problems and I have tried to fix them from the
| inside. I wrote a book, I answer consumer questions on my
| dearmonty.com website, I finally realized to have an impact I
| had to do something much larger. Thank you for your questions.
| I appreciate it. Richard
| dgrin91 wrote:
| Interesting site. Few notes:
|
| 1. Why did you choose to put the fees on the seller side? You say
| its 0 commission, but really its a flat fee commission on the
| seller. This is fine, just curious why not split? Makes it an
| unpleasant surprise for the seller.
|
| 2. It would be good if you be more upfront on where your service
| is active. Maybe during signup. I made an account just to find
| out you can't serve me. Double whammy
|
| 3. Its not really clear what sellers get from the platform
| besides flat fee commission
|
| Overall cool site. I'm always for innovation in real estate
| space. My experience home buying was super annoying.
| montgomster wrote:
| Thanks for your questions they are good questions. Here are the
| answers: 1. We debated your question. There are several factors
| that influenced it but the major factor is the seller is paying
| $995 + a photographer and a home inspection so depending on
| where you live and the size of your home another $800 to $1500
| say $2000. On a $500k home the seller saves $28,000! The other
| reason is the seller wants to make the home easy to buy. The
| low friction homes sell faster and for more money. We are
| hopeful buyers will recognize this and gravitate to PropBox. 2.
| good point. We can fix it. Were you in the process of signing
| up? send me an email and let me learn more - maybe we can add a
| state. no promise but I'd like to know more.3.The seller will
| have little stress, they are safer, they are far less likely to
| be litigated against, it is easy. Thanks for your comments and
| questions
| bruce511 wrote:
| >> but really its a flat fee commission on the seller
|
| No, it's nothing like a commission. It's a fee due whether the
| house sells or not.
|
| Basically FSBO sellers decide where,and how much, to spend
| their marketing dollars. Of course related-party transactions
| have no marketing costs at all, but the rest figure they can
| market themselves for less than the commission.
|
| This $1000 is really just an ad placement.
| mavili wrote:
| "... sellers savings are between $22,000 and $60,000"
|
| This must be talking about multi-million dollar properties? 60k
| is a deposit for most home purchases! And if you're talking about
| million+ dollar homes then don't waste your time, those people
| won't just sign up to a site and put their properties up
| themselves. Just by giving it to the right estate agent will give
| them tens of thousands over a price that you could potentially
| get from individuals browsing a site for buying.
|
| Sorry but this a waste of time.
| blairbeckwith wrote:
| I'll look past the rudeness of your comment and actually
| address your point.
|
| At least in Canada - I would assume the model is similar in the
| US - standard real estate transaction commissions using an
| agent are 4-5%, so your home wouldn't need to be over a million
| to save $20k by avoiding an agent.
|
| Also, in many metros, the prices of homes are so high that a
| million dollar home ain't what it used to be. We can't and
| shouldn't assume that someone selling a million dollar house is
| a sophisticated and wealthy actor.
| mavili wrote:
| Sorry if my comment sounded rude. Harsh, yes, but didn't
| think it was rude.
|
| Of course you will get lots of negative feedback, especially
| when you put something in front of thousands of strangers. It
| looks like you're handling that alright but just to give you
| a bit of comfort that's very expected.
|
| Agent fees in the UK are typically 1.5-2% - so even for a
| property of 500k, 2% is 10k. And average property prices are
| well below 500k.
| cj wrote:
| 6% is typical in the US (3% for seller's agent, another 3%
| for buyers agent).
|
| 6% of $500k is $30k. $419k is the median sale price in the
| US according to Redfin.
|
| It's possible to negotiate the percent down, but typically
| that is only common on particularly expensive listings (not
| super common below 7-figures).
|
| I purchased a house in New York last year. I found it on
| Zillow and showed up and bought it without an agent. They
| still charged the seller 6% (the seller agent got double
| the commission because I didn't have an agent, and they
| made themselves my agent of record for the purpose of the
| transaction - interestingly this is legal in NY, but not
| legal in all states). And because the seller agent knew
| they were getting double commission if they sold to me,
| they did a good job fending away other potential buyers
| (which I'm not complaining about as a buyer, but would be
| pissed about if I were the seller).
|
| There are lots of reasons to ditch real estate agents. They
| charge way too much relative to the value they bring most
| transactions.
| mavili wrote:
| Wow what a rip off! Joys of capitalism hey. And when you
| try to just deal with buyer/seller directly you'l hear
| all sorts of made-up reasons as to why it's "important"
| to do via agent. Most people are too scared to take any
| amount of risk, which gives companies chance to rip
| people off. 30k just to sell a house is ridiculus!
| sokoloff wrote:
| I found the house we live in now on my own, toured it at
| an open house, and once I decided I was serious, I
| engaged an agency on the terms that I would get a 75
| basis point rebate if I bought that specific house
| through them. They agreed, the agency and agent took
| their 225bps, I got 75bps (of my own money) back and the
| agent got a relatively easy sale under her belt.
|
| It might not always be possible, but it was worth the
| trouble to try to set up. (Redfin also offers a similar
| structure in some markets if you don't want to try to
| negotiate it on your own.)
| mlrtime wrote:
| 25% rebate isn't bad but you should be getting more for
| the little work the agents do.
|
| I did the same in NY and got back 75% of the buyers
| commission. There is a big business opportunity to setup
| a network of agents in all states (where leagl) that
| advertise buyers rebates for home buyers that want to do
| all the work.
| dmitkov28 wrote:
| Truly inspirational. Best of luck!
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| Hey, great idea and I wish you lots of luck!
|
| Some thoughts:
|
| - I can direct list my home on Facebook, Craigslist, and Zillow.
| Why would I want to list it on your "exclusive" platform? Will
| you at least cross list for me on all the other services?
|
| - The supported regions need to be more prominent. I didn't find
| out that my home wasn't in an onboarded region until I tried to
| calculate the cost of selling a house - that's a bit too deep. If
| LA is all you support then say, "buy and sell homes in LA" - and
| make sure all your marketing and advertising spend is focused in
| conquering your initial target market.
|
| - "Commission free" does not mean it's cost-free. The cost
| calculator needs to be simplified. If it is simplified enough, it
| needs to be more prominent as well - after all, you're asking the
| home owner to do all the hard work, and pay you up-front. So, why
| not sell me on how much I'd save by putting in the elbow grease?
| Sell me on how realtors make way too much money for not a lot of
| work. Sell me on how the platform will guide me each step of the
| way - it'll be as easy as following a cookie baking recipe or
| something.
| alberth wrote:
| Why not flat-free MLS listing?
|
| Not hating on this (and give huge props to actually releasing
| something), but why spend $995 when it costs only $100-500 for a
| flat-fee MLS listing?
|
| With a flat-fee MLS service you get the added benefit that all
| realtors will see your listing because it's on the official MLS?
| propboxsocials wrote:
| Main difference is that you pay flat fee $100-500 + you pay
| 2-3% commission to buyers agent. So let's say you're selling
| house for $500k and you go with Flat Fee MLS. You pay $100-500
| and then you also pay $15k(3%) for buyers agent fees. With us
| you pay only flat fee $995, no commissions.
| jamesgill wrote:
| Main feedback: There's no way I'm trusting an online third party
| to facilitate my home purchase/sale. Also: when doing FSBO, most
| of the work and difficulty is manually dealt with--negotiation
| back and forth verbally or on simple standardized legal
| documents. Then an escrow company takes over. Hard to see the
| benefit a third party in the middle who isn't taking that off my
| hands (i.e., a human agent).
| 6510 wrote:
| A bunch of videos from people who used the service would put a
| face on it.
| tomcam wrote:
| Am in the middle of listing my house using propbox.co because I
| happen to be the ideal use case: high end house in a pretty good
| market that should almost sell itself. When I say "in the middle"
| I haven't taken pictures of the property so the listing hasn't
| been completed and may not until weather here in Seattle
| approves. Another thing that makes this option tailor-made to me
| is that I'm friends with the real estate agent who sold it to me
| years ago and I don't necessarily want it to appear in the MLS
| yet, where she'd instantly know.
|
| The site's UI is pretty smooth, with some very minor bugs (at the
| moment you can't add blank lines to the house description
| textbox). For an MVP it's very very clean and a pleasure to use.
| There's an unobtrusive "Seller tips" box that has a fantastic
| checklist for prepping the house. I mean, I knew to replace the
| tile counter with marble but I never thought about replacing the
| doors' weather stripping.
|
| In the too-good-to-be-true dept: chatted with the founder and
| this appears to be a legit deal. Certainly they haven't charged
| any money, and he obviously knows the applicable laws: he's been
| in every possible position from developer to broker and
| everything else. In lieu of a big market spend he's just going to
| lose money on every sale early on. It really does cost only a
| buck to sell, and they do plan to send a distinct for sale sign.
| I suggested he make images of that sign prominent b/c the site is
| a little generic and that will set them apart.
| propboxsocials wrote:
| Folks, you can check out test house at this link
|
| https://propbox.co/homes/100000/details
|
| You cand send offers,chat, negotiate etc.
| grahamplace wrote:
| I came across this property on my own just by zooming out the
| map from my location -- you might make a more clear example
| listing like "123 Test St" with lorem ipsum in the listing
| description
|
| I thought it was a mistake to leave this data in production,
| not an intentional example listing.
|
| Congrats on the launch! The site looks great
| andrewstuart wrote:
| It is not a good idea to ask for my location then set your
| database to that location. Mainly because there's a very low
| chance this will show any houses for sale, and this makes it look
| like your service is unused.
|
| You've got the normal big challenge of creating a two sided
| marketplace - search for that term and you'll find any number of
| posts and podcasts talking about that. That is going to be hard
| to overcome.
|
| I think that sites should take you directly in to the data -
| don't force people to read some generic page of benefits - show
| don't tell. Put all that guff on an "about" page.
|
| If you are going to make your age a selling point, then drop
| visitors straight into the data browsing page, make sure there
| are some houses there - and put a picture of you up top and say
| hello and point out you are 77 years old and you wrote this. It's
| something unique, so why not?
|
| Also you should fill your database with houses - use AI or some
| sort of random data generator to generate them and just make sure
| there's a small but clear note on the listing saying this is AI
| data. It's not ideal but it is better than an empty database.
| Give people something to look at.
|
| Great work though.
|
| What is it built with? Who wrote it? You?
| dangoodmanUT wrote:
| > Also you should fill your database with houses - use AI or
| some sort of random data generator to generate them and just
| make sure there's a small but clear note on the listing saying
| this is AI data. It's not ideal but it is better than an empty
| database. Give people something to look at.
|
| Don't do this, please never do this.
| __ryan__ wrote:
| Also you should fill your database with houses - use AI or some
| sort of random data generator to generate them and just make
| sure there's a small but clear note on the listing saying this
| is AI data. It's not ideal but it is better than an empty
| database. Give people something to look at.
|
| This genuinely made my stomach turn. If this is the future... I
| don't know if I want in.
| sverhagen wrote:
| Isn't this the PAST... something along the lines of: "spent
| some time to fill the database with data; any data; make it
| up if you have to". This would've worked long before AI,
| except now just a bit more efficient?
| erhaetherth wrote:
| It wasn't cool then either.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| This kind of idea is always a telling stand-in for business
| incompetence.
|
| Yes, seeding something like this is difficult. It takes work.
| Arguably it's the main part and any sort of app is just the
| implementation. This is why oftentimes these things start off
| covering a small region and grow in time.
| jvdvegt wrote:
| Fully agree. Once I'd see the 'this is fake' disclaimer at
| any house, I'll skip.
|
| Perhaps a demo.probox.co would be a good idea for a dech
| demo.
|
| Also: this site seems implicitly us-centric, best to make
| that explicit.
| johnnypangs wrote:
| Yeah, it's seems weird to have a not real listing there.
| Maybe to start with you could partner real estate companies
| and have both house that are direct sells and ones that
| redirect you to a realtor. At least they would be real
| houses, and then people decide to buy a house you could
| message them asking them if they'd like to sell on the
| platform instead.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| Maybe youre right.
|
| In the other hand an empty database there's nothing at all to
| see and you bounce straight back out.
| michaelmior wrote:
| Not necessarily. I think if the only way to make your
| business work is to start off by manipulating your
| customers, that's a problem. I would suggest one possible
| alternative is to target sellers and give them the tools
| they need to easily list their home and promote that
| listing off the platform. If sellers can see the value add,
| it shouldn't matter so much that there's no existing
| listings in their area.
| fakedang wrote:
| Amazing that you built this at your age. And it honestly looks
| good. I do have concerns about the sustainability of the business
| model though, because I'm not sure how much sellers (who are
| mostly agents) would be willing to spend for this on a per-
| listing basis.
|
| The only disappointment I had when using the website was seeing a
| spacious home listed in the heart of LA for $900k, only to find
| that it was a test listing.
| btbuildem wrote:
| Check out Duproprio (in Quebec, Canada) - similar use case
| estreeper wrote:
| Great work and great concept - I found the copy to be clear and
| communicated the value proposition effectively, and I would
| certainly consider using this when selling my house since I could
| potentially get 10s of thousands of dollars more. I will also
| check back to see if there are different listings here than on
| Zillow, but will probably forget if you don't send me a reminder.
|
| One small UX bug: on mobile the hamburger menu obscures the Sign
| Up form, and I missed that I needed to click the X - closing the
| menu when I click an item would solve this. Other than that, it
| was pretty easy to use!
|
| The idea of being able to get information directly from the
| person living in the house is appealing to me.
|
| I understand the up front fee to sell, but wish I could de-risk
| by being able to get it refunded if I don't sell.
|
| Very interesting, I hope to keep an eye on your company!
| taylorhou wrote:
| I listed my Denver townhouse in prime golden triangle location 2
| blocks from all of the happening bars & clubs off Broadway.
|
| https://propbox.co/homes/100001/details
| propboxsocials wrote:
| wow, how was your experience?
| xyst wrote:
| $925K to live in Denver? Times have changed
| montgomster wrote:
| The artificially low interest rates and low inventory created
| high prices in many parts of the country, and they seem to be
| holding in some areas. Times have changed. Thanks for
| commenting.
| rubyn00bie wrote:
| I was the CTO of a startup that tried this; it's extremely
| difficult because most people (it turns out) want a real estate
| agent or someone to help them. Additionally, it's a real chicken
| or egg situation-- without inventory, no one will use your app,
| and with no one using your app you won't get any inventory. There
| are two ways around that, one is to pay for data but then you'll
| have to deal with local MLS requirements. The second is copious
| amounts of money ($150-200 million) to burn for _years_ in
| advertising to acquire eyeballs.
|
| Your app looks great, and I truly wish you the best of luck! I'd
| love to see someone succeed doing this...
| moneywoes wrote:
| What ended up happening to the startup, did they pivot?
| rubyn00bie wrote:
| Yeah, they ended up pivoting into home-ownership space after
| burning through cash and doing a CEO swap to secure new
| investment. Now it's sort of "car fax" and concierge
| experience for owning a house. It's a good idea, but real
| estate is a really hard industry for tech (IMHO), and it's
| just capital intensive to make any progress.
| montgomster wrote:
| Wow, rubyn00bie, I'd love to talk with you. I wonder who you
| were with and how long ago. We anticipate that will be an issue
| for awhile, but we have a jar full of ideas how we will
| overcome that problem. Kind of the coke recipe. Thanks for your
| feed back and we will take all the luck we can get. Richard
| 6510 wrote:
| My standard formula (tempted to call it a standard joke) is
| to build an aggregator that lists the competitors offers, in
| your case as many properties from as many agencies as
| possible.
|
| Some you have to pay for their data, some you can do for
| free, some want to pay for better listings.
|
| On a different note, without an agency one can leverage the
| lack of artificial urgency. ATM, with few listings, the
| longer listings last the better it is for you.
| rubyn00bie wrote:
| It's much easier and cheaper (in terms of time/money spent)
| just to use https://www.listhub.com/home.html to aggregate
| the data. Many MLS are run on old beige boxes living in
| closets.
|
| I sort of disagree with the analysis about having things
| sit longer. One of the issues is that if it sits too long,
| because markets are hot, sellers will just go with an agent
| and never use your platform again. Additionally, many
| buyers will assume that the data is _stale_ because its
| old. It 's really a difficult situation with so many non-
| obvious layers of complexity in how it works.
| rubyn00bie wrote:
| I'd be happy to setup a call sometime, do you have an email
| address? I've seen a whole helluva lot of that space (though
| it has been 5-6 years now since I was there). The company was
| called Househappy, before I left the company pivoted into
| being a home ownership platform instead a buy/sell platform.
| I'm still quite sure that we're started the trend, on housing
| websites, of a photo driven approach :)
| lancewiggs wrote:
| I invested and helped with something very similar to this in New
| Zealand. We found the model is difficult to make work for several
| reasons.
|
| Firstly for most people buying and selling a house it is the
| biggest transaction that they ever do, and they are simply not
| used to negotiating that large of a contract. They actually need
| a Real Estate agent to help drive the transaction to a close. So
| in our model we had a licensed agent as the founder and he spent
| considerable time negotiating deals to close, and sold a lot of
| homes.
|
| Secondly when it comes to selling your home you want to advertise
| it to the biggest market possible, which in our terms meant being
| on the major real estate platforms, one of which required you to
| be a licensed agent. Your buyers are not really incentivised to
| find your site and will use the big sites.
|
| Thirdly, and most importantly, the Real Estate game as you
| probably know is all about finding listings. That takes money and
| time, and $1000 per listing simply doesn't make economic sense,
| well it didn't for us.
|
| Our business failed, gracefully
|
| Suggestions (without reviewing the site):
|
| Sell packs of home sale supplies such as yard signs,
| advertisements on platforms where you get discounts or access.
|
| Try to get relationships with large sellers, in particular we
| found sellers of new apartment complexes /multifamily dwellings
| which were in demand were very keen on lowering their transaction
| fees.
|
| Consider offering a Real Estate agent service for very low cost
| will you conduct all of your business on the phone and not in
| person. That may meet the regulations and dramatically undercut
| the market.
|
| Consider a higher price, especially consider a transaction fee as
| that's where sellers don't mind paying.
|
| The Real Estate industry, and our part of the world and I suspect
| and yours, had a wide array of inefficient practices that were
| begging for automation. That's where the real value has been
| created, though I would say the real money is of course in
| selling houses.
|
| Good luck with the endeavour.
| djbusby wrote:
| On the first house the Agent is critical. On the fourth not so
| much. iME, YMMV
| montgomster wrote:
| Generally speaking yes, but lots of exceptions. Thanks for
| commenting
| Rapzid wrote:
| It seemed not so long ago most homes in NZ were going to
| auction too.
| montgomster wrote:
| Not too familiar with NZ real estate but it makes me wonder
| why?
| Rapzid wrote:
| Lots of demand and little supply. Why list a price when you
| can let people fight it out at auction?
| mustardo wrote:
| Auctions generally perform better in a seller's market
| (strong buyer demand), with interest rate rises prices have
| been dropping lately here (NZ)
| moneywoes wrote:
| How did your business fail?
| xupybd wrote:
| We've hit something similar with kitchens. It turns out most
| people need a designer or they won't buy a kitchen. When mitre
| 10 offers design for free it's hard to compete.
| montgomster wrote:
| Every industry has cut rate companies. and every industry has
| high quality companies. It is battle. Sometimes the cut-rate
| companies are competing with other cut rate companies and it
| is a race to the bottom. Not sure where you are located but
| in my market it is just the opposite. Never give up. There is
| a way.Thanks for your comment.
| moneywoes wrote:
| By cut rate companies do you mean brokers? Brokers who take
| a lot of excess transaction cost
| montgomster wrote:
| Brokers and agents both. From the customers perspective
| the agent is the company. Some companies forbid the agent
| from cutting their fee. Some agents are offended if you
| ask. It's the wild west out there. Very fragmented
| industry which is part of their problem. Thanks for your
| question.
| OJFord wrote:
| Not GP but no - cheap companies, with an implication of
| low quality, serving the most price sensitive end of the
| market.
| propboxsocials wrote:
| Thanks for sharing this, in 2020 in US there was about 500k
| real estate transactions done by FSBOs. We will try to get
| share of this market.
| kanwisher wrote:
| What percentage of those were just unadvertised listings. For
| example I sold my condo to a tenant that was renting from me.
| Blindly ignoring his advice is why there have been a dozen
| startups fail in this category
| montgomster wrote:
| According to NAR they were FSBOs. More than a dozen, I paid
| attention to all of them I could find. probably missed some
| -its a big country. thanks for weighing in.
| paulddraper wrote:
| Homie has seen good success.
|
| I bought my last house through that.
|
| First time buyers may need some help, but you learn a lot and
| quickly
| lolinder wrote:
| Homie's flat fee for sellers is dramatically higher than
| OP's, and the seller still pays a regular commission for the
| buyer agent (even if the buyer is using Homie as their buyer
| agent):
|
| Sellers Pricing: https://homie.com/pricing#buy-sell-tabs-
| first
|
| Buyers Pricing: https://homie.com/pricing#buy-sell-tabs-
| second
|
| The higher fee means they can actually pay for all the costs
| they incur and still remain profitable. Including the buyer
| agent fee means that they're in a position to attract non-
| Homie buyer agents to the platform, so they're not trying to
| bootstrap a market from scratch. It also means they can give
| half of that portion of the fee back to the buyer as an
| incentive to choose Homie, whereas in OP's model there's no
| reason for buyers to choose them.
| paulddraper wrote:
| Hmm looks like they've changed their pricing model.
| Interesting
| lolinder wrote:
| Possibly! That definitely wasn't the model I expected
| them to have based on their ads.
| paulddraper wrote:
| I think they might be able to act as a general buyer's
| agent
|
| But you don't have to hire them for that even if the
| seller is using them
| OJFord wrote:
| I thought 'buyer's agent' was a weird Canadian thing, ypu
| do it in the US too?
|
| Seems such a con. And your links imply it's built in to the
| system, there's always a 6% charge for that (otherwise why
| would they charge and give back half).
|
| Short of multi-millionaires looking for an interesting
| fifth home without caring where it is, I don't see why
| you'd want to try to explain your requirements to someone
| else, have them sort of get it, show you things that aren't
| right for reasons you forgot to give or can't quite
| explain, and pay for the privilege.
|
| In the UK we just find somewhere we like the look of,
| arrange viewing with the (sellers') estate agent, and
| potentially make an offer. What would a buyer's agent do
| for me except increase the price/decrease what I can
| afford?
| lolinder wrote:
| We bought for the first time in 2021, when interest rates
| were at the very bottom and the market was absolutely
| insane. The only reason we got a house (and one we like!)
| was because we had a _really_ good agent who helped us
| navigate the market.
|
| Doing it a second time in a saner market, I would be more
| inclined to do it ourselves and negotiate a 3% discount
| on the house. But successfully buying a house at rock
| bottom interest rates was totally worth the cost.
| sakoht wrote:
| Repeating a note by others, having advice on navigating a
| large transaction is comforting. Even though I ultimately
| found the house I bought myself the guidance of my
| buyer's agent through the process was invaluable. No
| regrets on him making good money for his efforts. Also,
| surprisingly, it didn't feel odd for him to help me
| negotiate a lower price while his pay is based on the
| sale price. His business is based on referrals to my next
| friend who needs such help.
| OJFord wrote:
| If the fee structure was something like 1% list price +
| 50% (list - final), I could understand it as an 'I'm not
| used to negotiating, pay someone to do it for me'
| service.
|
| (And I'm sure you could find someone to do that here if
| you wanted, especially for very high value properties, or
| by bespoke arrangement with some other real estate agent
| or salesman who's used to negotiating, but it's just not
| commonly done. I suppose for one thing you often end up
| paying more than the list price - and they might have to
| negotiate hard to get it for that, other times not at
| all. You'd need to somehow incentivise listing at a
| 'real' asking price (or penalise difference from it) I
| suppose.)
|
| But the house-finding (and related apparent refusal to
| arrange viewing except through buying agent sometimes)
| and inversely aligned incentives seem strange to me.
| montgomster wrote:
| There are many cut rate brokers, some more successful than
| others. We believe first time buyer will like PropBox. We
| even make them aware of the 5 year rule. Thanks for your
| comments.
| [deleted]
| montgomster wrote:
| Thanks for your feedback. A lot of your comments line up with
| the US. We suspect our market is the FSBO. According to NAR,
| about 10% of the market was for sale by owner(FSBO). If that
| number is correct, the FSBO market is twice the size of the
| largest real estate company. So about ten percent of the market
| here apparently doesn't need an agent. That's about 500k
| houses. We believe we have a lot to offer a "bare" FSBO. Only
| time will tell. Thanks for your feedback. It is appreciated.
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| Twice the size of the largest RE doesn't mean much when 90%
| of the market is RE. People pick realtors, not companies, and
| companies have done pretty well to spread themselves evenly
| over the great US landscape. And you're not primed to capture
| a market that is focused on spending $0 to list. That's the
| reason they're avoiding the real estate pipeline in the first
| place.
| montgomster wrote:
| I see your point, but it is not universal. There are a
| number of reasons sellers choose FSBO. I have spoken with
| thousands of FSBO as an agent and as DearMonty on my
| website. Here are a few other reasons: 1. significant
| inside real estate knowledge who know how the system works.
| Examples are contractors, attorneys, title company workers,
| and there are more. 2. Poor experiences with agents. 3.A
| need to be in control. 4. They recognize the significant
| asymmetry and conflict of interest of the agent. Yes, there
| are bottom feeders and they need us more, but they may be
| harder to convince. Time will tell. I appreciate your
| feedback/
| dools wrote:
| We actually have this website in Australia it's been around
| for a while:
|
| https://www.forsalebyowner.com.au/
| oefrha wrote:
| Pricing says $1 per listing for the first 100, then $995. If
| you're targeting the FSBO market, doesn't that mean you won't
| be making any money most of the time? Am I missing something?
| Maybe the $1 per listing is temporary to kickstart it?
| montgomster wrote:
| You are correct the low price is the kickstart it. The
| first 100 customers are beta customers. It is one dollar.
| They will help us iterate, they will help us get the
| inventory started much faster. We are frugal and we think
| it is smarter to benefit our customers than an advertising
| agency. Time will tell if it is a good decision. Good
| observation and thanks for sharing it.
| markdown wrote:
| > $1 per listing is temporary to kickstart it?
|
| It's $1 for the first 100 people who sell a home on the
| platform, then full price after that.
| montgomster wrote:
| We won't decide on the price change until after we hit
| 100. 101 could be full price, but it may lower. It is
| also unknown how long it will take to hit 100. good
| question, thank you.
| oefrha wrote:
| Oh, I'm too used to SaaS pricing schemes to think that
| way...
| montgomster wrote:
| Ha! If I get your drift, we don't ever want to be seen as
| scheming. Transparency is paramount to building a
| trusting relationship with our customers. We will be very
| careful to avoid any hint of scheming. Thanks for your
| comment.
| davewasthere wrote:
| Although it reads as though it's $1 ea for your first 100
| homes you sell, then $995 after that.
|
| And actually, probably need to make it $1/home for the
| first 1000 or so just to get the site to critical mass.
| Not going to get many buyers for 2 listings...
| montgomster wrote:
| We believe 100 customer at $1 is very generous. When the
| seller has a number of benefits besides saving
| significant money, when they see how well this works for
| others the $995 is peanuts when your saving $50k. Time
| will tell. Thanks for your feedback. I hope you are not
| right!
| conductr wrote:
| > If that number is correct, the FSBO market is twice the
| size of the largest real estate company.
|
| That's the most apples & oranges thing I've read in a long
| time
|
| I recently used a real listing agent that I paid a flat fee
| of $500 to and they got the listing on the MLS given I filled
| out the forms and provided pictures (hired a photographer for
| $200). I was fine just having the MLS as the marketing
| vehicle as buyer's would find it without any marketing at
| all. It worked and saved 6%-$700 which on this particular
| property was about $35,000. (Oh I did do my own negotiating
| as a seller, but they offered to do that for an added flat $
| fee that I don't remember)
|
| I think that's the model for this. Don't try to create a FSBO
| market, try to find a RE agent that does above in every
| market and create a network of that type of service. Then you
| can skim a fee off at some point from either the agent,
| seller, buyer, or anyone else.
| mlrtime wrote:
| How did you avoid paying the 3% (In your example) buyers
| fee? Did you just refuse to work with any agents? For most
| people this will not work.
| montgomster wrote:
| Excellent question. PropBox is not a real estate company.
| It is a technically advanced media/advertising company
| that is specializing in advertising homes. The seller
| purchases an ad for a dedicated web page that benefits
| the seller and the buyer. They are in control, they make
| all the decisions, and they do all the work. A buyer can
| pay a buyer agent, a seller can choose to go a different
| route. We are not listing homes. We believe many home
| buyers and sellers are looking for an alternative to the
| the two choices that were available until we launched
| yesterday. Now there is a third choice, PropBox. A
| platform that provides both parties the same information
| and allows them to work directly together. We believe
| some customers will like the ease of use, the ability to
| speak with the seller who knows more about the house than
| any agent, and much more. Both parties will like the
| ability to better control and easily communicate with
| each other within the platform. PropBox is not avoiding
| the 3%, the customer is avoiding the 3%. I hope this
| answers your question. Thank you for asking.
| gremlinsinc wrote:
| there's not any listings in my area, southern Utah. Have
| you thought of maybe using MLS so buyers can at least see
| all available options in their area. Then flag as
| premium/featured homes that are listed without an agent
| or FSBO?
|
| If I go to your website today and see no homes, I'm
| probably not coming back even if you add 1000 in my area
| tomorrow. How would I even know?
|
| Using existing data and listings as an aggregate with a
| special built in marketplace IMHO would provide more
| value to all parties.
| Dwolb wrote:
| Your marketing copy should communicate this.
|
| >PropBox is not a real estate company. It is a
| technically advanced media/advertising company that is
| specializing in advertising homes. The seller purchases
| an ad for a dedicated web page that benefits the seller
| and the buyer.
|
| 1) What PropBox is in simple terms the customer would
| use.
|
| 2) How it works (from the customer perspective).
| montgomster wrote:
| Wow. This is very helpful. Thank you.
| Dwolb wrote:
| Glad I could help! Good luck on your journey.
| montgomster wrote:
| Thank you.
| cj wrote:
| If they're on MLS, they'll be on Zillow.
|
| Buyers these days do a lot of their own searching. If a
| buyer finds the listing on Zillow via MLS, it won't stop
| them from viewing the house even if they have an agent.
|
| Once they view the house, the owner could convince them
| to ditch the agent. I mean honestly, what does the
| average agent do for a client? Not very much.
| judge2020 wrote:
| > Once they view the house, the owner could convince them
| to ditch the agent. I mean honestly, what does the
| average agent do for a client? Not very much.
|
| Most Buyer Agency agreements operate on the basis of "if
| we show a house to you, and you buy it, we are owed a
| commission regardless of if you terminate the agreement
| afterwards". Now, typically a real estate agent isn't
| about to sue their clients if they purchase FSBO, since
| that would mean suing them for a 2.5 or 3% commission the
| seller wasn't even offering to the buyer agent, but it
| does mean that you can't get agent 1 to show a house,
| then switch to another agent, without agent 1 getting
| paid.
| montgomster wrote:
| When I began selling real estate in 1966 the legal theory
| in place was "Caveat Emptor" or let the buyer beware.
| There were many complaints and over the years the theory
| drifted to "Caveat Venditor" or let the seller beware.
| Most states have gone this route but I believe there are
| one or two states doing let the buyer beware.I cannot
| find information that quantifies the actual number of
| complaints, but my experience is that the complaints are
| about the same. This suggests that neither theory works
| in practice. I wrote about this[1] several years ago. The
| article gives you a common sense take on agency
| [1]https://dearmonty.com/is-your-buyer-agent-legitimate/
| cj wrote:
| Even if someone was driving by and pulled in the driveway
| and saw the house without the agent present?
|
| Do buyer agent agreements require you buy a house through
| them even if you find the house and view the house and
| negotiate the price with the seller yourself?
|
| (I've never relied on an agent for these things, I did
| everything myself when buying my first/only house)
| judge2020 wrote:
| Some have exclusivity agreements that require that, but
| they're pretty unpopular (because it's also intimidating
| for a buyer to sign). What I described is a non-exclusive
| showing agreements, where they only get compensation if
| they helped in showing the house or completing the
| transaction (like drafting the contracts).
| sokoloff wrote:
| This matches my experience as a buyer as well. It won't
| get you 100% of the buyers, but it will get you way over
| 50% and likely over 75%.
|
| If I was working with an agent, I'm sure they'd
| discourage me from that listing, but as a seller in a
| reasonable market, I'm willing to give up a few possible
| buyers to save 5-6% on a 7-figure transaction. (I've also
| seen FSBOs that offer X% to buyer agents.)
|
| I will say that agents did do some work to make the
| transaction complete on both of my house purchases.
| Negotiations after the inspection can be tense and a good
| agent can help both sides get to the closing table.
| montgomster wrote:
| PropBox would be very happy with buyers at 50 percent of
| the market. PropBox believes that there are good agents
| but there are way too many not so good agents. It is hard
| to distinguish what kind of agent you have until you
| start working with them.
| sokoloff wrote:
| > way too many not so good agents
|
| This is exactly my experience. In shopping for my first
| house, I had a clear idea of what I wanted and a budget
| that matched that and the first four agents I worked with
| were nearly useless. (This was before web-MLS was a
| thing.) The fifth was a breath of fresh air and I would
| happily use them again.
| ipaddr wrote:
| Are you saving 5-6% but selling at 10% less than you
| could? In some markets bidding wars are common. The extra
| 25-50% of bidders pushes up the price usually worth more
| than 5%
| montgomster wrote:
| Your observation is right on. The industry believes they
| perform a valuable service. PopBox believes that
| technology has already changed the playing field. Real
| estate agents job description, work environment, and
| compensation will change. Today they work in a 100 year
| old, inefficient system. PropBox uses technology to do
| the same work, with the customers help faster, easier and
| much more efficiently. This standardization and efficient
| process drives cost way down, and gives the customer what
| they want, a fast, simple, easy to use tool that puts
| them in control. Technology allows consumers to access
| the same information as the agent. This fact devalues the
| service, but has done little to devalue the price. We are
| hopeful enough customers recognize this and will save
| significant money with 10 to 12 hours of their time. If
| our test market hours of work hold up as we grow, our
| customers will save two thousand to six thousand dollars
| per hour. The customers success is our success.
| montgomster wrote:
| PropBox is not a real estate company. PropBox is a tech
| enabled platform that sells an ad to home sellers. It is
| a uniquely designed ad that offers options, not advice,
| to home sellers and buyers. We believe consumers of real
| estate are smart and when they have the options in front
| of them can chose which one is best.
| windexh8er wrote:
| On the flip side I purchased my last home with a lawyer
| who's also a real estate agent. They only represent the
| buyer and provide all services for a flat fee that's tiered
| on the home price. It doesn't fix the Realtor problem with
| insane fees and idiotic sales tactics. But it allowed me to
| buy my home with far less out-of-pocket and at the end they
| handed me a 5-figure check as a rebate. This would have
| been his insane commission for doing very little. I don't
| understand how people still are just giving their money
| away to "Realtors" who, ultimately, unlock doors. The
| majority can't actually read or understand a contract (I
| sued Redfin because a Realtor working for them lost my
| earnest money when they failed to understand something as
| simple as a date), very few of them actually know anything
| about a home or what to look for and finally, these days,
| most buyers do 90%+ of the work to find the home they want.
| Do most people use travel agents anymore? Why use a
| Realtor?
| montgomster wrote:
| You won't get any argument from me. PropBox completely
| replaces the need for real estate agents and MLS
| listings. PropBox enables you to sell your home fast with
| no fees - on a secure platform with a very easy process.
| It takes about 10-12 hours of your time and the seller
| saves based on home value $25K to $75K. One point you
| mentioned is there is an association called the National
| Association of Exclusive Buyer Agents.[1] They operate
| similar to your lawyer. What I like about them is that
| they cannot work in a traditional real estate office that
| takes listings. That is where the term a"exclusive" has
| meaning. They only represent buyers so they shun the
| listing commissions to remove any potential conflict of
| interest. This is why there are not very many of them.
| What this suggests to me is that they are of high moral
| character and their advice can be trusted. The downside
| is you may not be able to find one near you. If I were
| buying a home I would definitely interview one. Another
| tactic I have observed is the number of home buyer that
| believed they used a buyer agent but did not sign a
| contract. In my state and I believe many others, this
| means you were actually working with a sub-agent of the
| seller, or a transactional agent. Thank you for your
| input. [1]https://naeba.org/
| judge2020 wrote:
| > Why use a Realtor?
|
| Just to inquire, do you mean Realtor(r) or just a
| salesperson/agent? Any salesperson/agent can get their
| license by taking a short training course, and can then
| subscribe to lead websites like Zillow etc. But becoming
| a Realtor is at least a bit more commitment to knowing
| how real estate actually works and advising your client
| on good decisions, in addition to being bound by the
| Realtor code of ethics. https://www.nar.realtor/about-
| nar/when-is-a-real-estate-agen...
| windexh8er wrote:
| I'm sorry but the Realtor code of ethics is BS. I've read
| what Realtors are bound by and I've found those folks
| doing shady things. Like a common practice is for a
| Realtor to not mark a property as pending before it goes
| contingent. This allows the Realtor to pretend to
| potential clients that the property is still for sale and
| can drag it out in case something like an inspection
| causes the pending buyers to back out. I found one
| Realtor in my area that never issued a Pending update to
| any of his properties and submitted it to the Realtors
| Association as abuse. In their own language an agent has
| to update the status within, last I checked, 48 hours.
| They completely ignored me. When I brought up sharing
| this with local news outlets as a common, and shady,
| practice they said they would "look into it". They never
| responded beyond that. Being a Realtor doesn't mean you
| know anything about legal contracts or are able to
| inspect a home properly. It's a self serving organization
| that's sole focus is on revenue. Not the buyer and not
| the seller. There's very little, if any good that
| organization brings to market - that is unless you're a
| fan of monopolistic organizations that will do anything
| to keep out competition.
| jimmydddd wrote:
| Also, in the US, if you are the buyer, "your" Realtor is
| typically being paid by the seller, so it's hard to say
| who their customer is. After I found the listing for my
| current house, I had to practically force my Realtor to
| find out about it. I later found out from the seller's
| Realtor (for the whole development) that they were
| forcing lower commissions on the buyer's Realtor, so a
| lot of Realtors were not showing their customers the
| house.
| montgomster wrote:
| Your comments and your experience are one of the reasons
| we do not use multiple listing services. The other reason
| is that they are very inefficient and time consuming. The
| methods and operations originated over one hundred years
| ago. I have written a column [1]that better explains how
| agents work. It is a generalization as not all agents
| work like this. The real estate organizations are trade
| organizations. Their members are agents. They protect the
| folks that are paying good money to be members.
| [1}https://dearmonty.com/is-your-buyer-agent-legitimate/
| windexh8er wrote:
| I really hope you disrupt the industry. Even if, as you
| say, your target market is mostly FSBO. Taking anything
| away from the Realtor organization is only making things
| better. Good luck!
| montgomster wrote:
| Thank you for your comment. We are not trying to disrupt
| necessarily. We are offer a third choice. Until
| yesterday's launch you had two choices: For-sale-by-owner
| (FSBO) or some type of real estate agent. We believe
| either choice has numerous pain points or friction. Now
| PropBox is the alternate third choice. It is designed to
| eliminate all the pain points. It is accurate, fast,
| efficient, and cheap. PropBox is a Tech Advertising
| Company not a real estate company. We use technology ,
| standardization, and simplicity built into our Service As
| A Software (SaaS)product. Many don't pay enough attention
| to their largest single investment so they will be the
| last to realize and adapt. In my opinion that will take
| years.
| montgomster wrote:
| Many real estate salesperson agents who are not brokers
| can become Realtors. The broker license requires more
| hours of study and some states require a salesperson to
| complete a certain number of hours or transaction before
| they can become a broker. All salespersons must hang
| their license with a broker so there are no salespersons
| wandering around if they are practicing. If they are
| between brokers or inactive they may not need a broker in
| some state. According to ARELLO [1] there are over 3
| million real estate brokers and salespersons in the US.
| About half are Realtors. I hope this information
| helps.[1] https://www.arello.org/
| smugma wrote:
| You also need to pass a test (and find a broker to
| oversee your license) to become a real estate
| salesperson.
| montgomster wrote:
| Correct. Thanks for pitching in.
| montgomster wrote:
| Thank you for your thorough explanation on your experience.
| While I appreciate your sharing I come from a different
| perspective in that you were the customer and I was the
| service provider. I recently wrote a column that explains
| my role and a major consideration as to why I have
| undertaken this project.[1] Please check it out from an
| insiders perspective. It is always helpful. A mentor once
| told me "First seek to understand, then be
| understood."[1]https://dearmonty.com/selling-and-buying-a-
| home-today-is-eas...
| starik36 wrote:
| I also worked on something nearly identical in US. It also
| failed with a bang. The site had a similar value proposition as
| the OP. $995 and off you go (we also tried other price points).
|
| At the end of the day we just couldn't get enough customers.
| That is despite spending some serious bucks on advertising with
| Facebook and others.
|
| I suspect you are right - home purchase/sale is too complicated
| for a regular consumer from a legal and practical standpoint
| and cost of failure is high. It's better to hand it off to a
| professional.
| flarg wrote:
| I'm in the UK and we bought our house direct. We needed a
| solicitor but not an estate agent. Saved a packet. Most
| people I speak to are too scared to go out alone in this way.
| If it became more of a regular thing it would take off.
| lozenge wrote:
| Buyers' agents barely exist in the UK but sellers' agents
| are very common.
| montgomster wrote:
| I don't know a lot about other countries but my
| understanding is the fee is much lower, which may explain
| why you do see many buyer agents. Good comment. Thank
| you.
| xur17 wrote:
| I think fear is the main deterrent as well. I wonder if it
| can just be framed as "presale" - you list on this much
| cheaper platform, and if it doesn't sell, you can still go
| the normal route.
|
| Homeshake [0] is a local company that does something
| similar to this, which at least appears to be having
| success.
|
| [0] https://www.homeshake.com
| montgomster wrote:
| I am familiar with Home shake. I wish them well.
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| Website seems clean although relatively bog standard. Dislike the
| not-so-subtle emotional play by stating your "advanced" age. Let
| the product stand on its own.
| [deleted]
| MagicMoonlight wrote:
| Purplebricks
| gnfargbl wrote:
| For anyone not in the UK, Purplebricks was an online-only
| estate agent with a similar (but not identical) model to this
| platform. The market had high expectations for the company, but
| it didn't do particularly well and was sold for PS1 recently:
| https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/may/17/online-esta...
| mr-pink wrote:
| when i click "about us" you look pretty young for 77!
| EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote:
| Looks like a letter is missing in the phrase "The title company
| will follow the contact instructions" in the "Frequently asked
| questions" section.
| montgomster wrote:
| Ah, I see it contract not contact. Thanks much.
| dorianmariefr wrote:
| Looked really cool but the search in the map for buying homes
| doesn't work
| pryelluw wrote:
| Dunno if reported already but this copy doesn't seem right:
|
| **
|
| Caution: Home buyers or sellers engaging a real estate agent may
| be subject to additional fees. Understanding the pros and cons of
| your options as a buyer or a seller if this circumstance arises
| is here. A LINK
| montgomster wrote:
| Hi. not sure exactly how to answer your question. May I ask
| what doesn't seem right?
| pryelluw wrote:
| The text towards the end. :)
|
| I saw another comment that addressed it. Apologies for the
| duplicate bug report.
| montgomster wrote:
| No apology necessary. I'm happy that you are commenting.
| When several people see the same problem it gets more
| attention. Thanks for commenting
| jimmar wrote:
| I noticed the same thing. Is "A LINK" is supposed to be a
| link to another resource? It sounds like place holder text.
|
| "Understanding the pros and cons of your options as a buyer
| or a seller if this circumstance arises is here." Simplified,
| this sentence reads, "Understanding...is here." The sentence
| doesn't make sense.
| montgomster wrote:
| Ah, good find you two. I will try to get that fixed soon.
| Thank you
| Dowwie wrote:
| How are you navigating regulations? Are you vetting listings? Is
| there a legal expert in your team?
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| This is a cool service, and I would certainly use it as a buyer,
| but to get me as a seller it would need to have an option to get
| an MLS listing as well. Is there any reason that wouldn't be
| possible eventually as a feature?
|
| It's just that the majority of potential buyers will be looking
| for homes through MLS, so you are drastically reducing the pool
| of potential buyers. Number of interested buyers is going to be a
| huge factor in selling price, especially if you get a bidding war
| going.
| ccamrobertson wrote:
| I would love this for low cost land plots (sub $50k). I see a lot
| of people listing land like this on Facebook Marketplace; feels
| like this platform could be ideal for that.
| [deleted]
| kfrzcode wrote:
| I like it, from a quick hallway-test point of view; especially
| considering I'm your perfect customer right now, I saw the "$1"
| listing opportunity and immediately signed up to find out you
| don't service Minnesota.
|
| `WA, CA, AZ, CO, KS, TX, MO, IN, TN, KY, OH, FL, WI`
|
| You could make this more clear on the front page, of offer an
| Address/Zip based search, it's in my opinion a so-called "dark
| pattern" by requiring a login with email to do any basic
| searching like that.
| ape4 wrote:
| I guess this is for the US, but I can't tell, why not put that in
| About.
| rkagerer wrote:
| Is that your home address in the ToS?
|
| If your company is in Wisconsin, how come it references the
| Department of Consumer Affairs in California?
|
| Governing Law section has some blanks not filled in.
|
| If you copy/pasted a template from somewhere else it might be
| worth having a lawyer do a quick review to make sure it meets
| your needs.
|
| Would also be nice if the hyperlinks on that page worked.
| propboxsocials wrote:
| That's required if you work in State of California. For our ToS
| we use Termly.
| montgomster wrote:
| Yes,that is my home address we all work remotely.
|
| The platform is currently operating in 13 states and California
| is one of them.
|
| Good find on the blanks
|
| No templates at least two lawyers have reviewed
|
| We are working on the links
| Pathogen-David wrote:
| You might consider looking into one of those UPS mailboxes or
| something similar. They have normal-looking addresses unlike
| PO boxes.
|
| As an aside, your terms pages both don't allow selecting
| text, which feels odd and is quite annoying. (I frequently
| select text as I'm reading it to help keep my place. It's
| also just annoying when pages block selecting text in the
| first place.)
|
| You also can't print either of them beyond the first page due
| to how the pages are structured.
|
| Apart from the legal pages, you filters on home type are
| currently too broad, IMO. (In particular multi-family homes
| should be a category -- I personally would be hard-pressed to
| consider a duplex as it's important to my that I don't share
| walls with people.) If you're modeling off of Zillow's tools,
| make sure to note that Zillow's filters change quite a bit
| when you indicate you're looking to buy rather than rent. (In
| rental view it doesn't disambiguate house vs duplex but in
| buy view it does.)
|
| In general the filters are lacking (lot size is another big
| one) but I imagine that can wait.
|
| A proper gallery view of all the images of the house that I
| can scroll through would be important to me. Clicking through
| images one by one is quite annoying.
|
| Rambling aside, best of luck with PropBox! Seems like a tough
| business to get going but I've always though something like
| this should exist.
| unusualmonkey wrote:
| > Yes,that is my home address we all work remotely.
|
| Consider getting a virtual office (e.g. regus) for mail. You
| don't wnat random people rocking up at your door, and you
| don't want to have to change every address if you ever move.
| montgomster wrote:
| Thanks for your comments
| Anon4Now wrote:
| You might want to have someone proofread your site. Maybe hire a
| professional copywriter.
|
| > Unlike FSBO websites with flat fee listings, no MSL listing or
| co-broke fees exist.
|
| That's not a sentence, and the rest of that paragraph is pretty
| bad as well.
|
| > About us
|
| > PropBox is a company of humans with shared beliefs ...
|
| That sounds great if your target market is Marianne Williamson,
| but I think most people would look at the About page to find out
| more about the owner(s) of your company and their experience in
| the real estate market. A home is the single biggest asset that
| most people own. Are they going to trust the sales process to a
| nameless, faceless URL with no discernible address or contact
| information?
| lagniappe wrote:
| > Unlike FSBO websites with flat fee listings, no MSL listing
| or co-broke fees exist.
|
| what's wrong with that sentence? subject is "fees", verb is
| "exist".
| montgomster wrote:
| I agree with you. I answered a similar comment directly above
| yours. Paul Graham says don't try to make the site perfect,
| get it out the door as fast as you can. Hopefully it will
| begin to scale and we will hire a designer to help. Thank you
| for weighing in I (we) are listening, and responding
| candidly. We will behave the same way with our customers.
| This is good practice. ;)
| lagniappe wrote:
| Hang in there Montgomster, congratulations on your SaaS!
| Anon4Now wrote:
| You're right! I had the worst time parsing that sentence. I
| read it as a series that lacked an Oxford comma.
| montgomster wrote:
| Yes, please check out the two posts above. We take every
| comment seriously. I am overwhelmed with the help the
| Hacker News community is providing us. We deeply appreciate
| it. Thank you.
| jaclaz wrote:
| As I see it, it is missing something like:
|
| >Unlike _what is common on other_ FSBO websites with flat fee
| listings, no MSL listing or co-broke fees exist.
|
| Without it, it seems that in the first part of the sentence
| the subject is FSBO websites, so that the implied subject of
| the second part of the sentence is "this site".
| montgomster wrote:
| I couldn't agree with you more. The problem is that I am
| bootstrapping this project and my son says he doesn't want me
| bagging groceries at Wal-Mart when I'm ninety. While I have
| done well financially in life, I have also had some major
| hiccups. I have learned more in projects that failed than I
| ever did with the successful ones. I am hopeful that consumers
| will come to understand the real value of PropBox so when it
| starts to scale, lots of people will want to invest. YC has
| turned me down at least 3 times. On your nameless question, I
| am willing to be named as the founder, but the Federal Trade
| Commission and the Department of Justice have been battling the
| industry since the 1950s.[1] In one of the reports they
| published, I recall it was named the Butters Report, they
| interviewed cut-rate brokers, some of whom mentioned threats of
| personal harm, property damaged, a building set on fire. If
| people were doing that in the fifties, it could be much worse
| today. I don't want my developers endangered trying to do the
| right thing. I may be a bit over the top, but the real estate
| industry is a bit like a union. One cut rate broker recently
| called NAR a cartel, and they haven't found Jimmy Hoffa yet. I
| also am a low key person, and the culture we want want to build
| isn't around me. But you make a good point. I will take your
| suggestion under advisement. [1]
| https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/339/485/
| unusualmonkey wrote:
| For me, a startup is a _business_ first, technology second.
|
| So my first question are always:
|
| 1) What does it cost to aquire a customer (CAC)?
|
| 2) How much does a customer pay (REVENUE)?
|
| 3) How many customers are there (TAM)?
|
| 4) How much does it cost to service a customer (GROSS MARGIN)?
|
| Let's answer these:
|
| 1) No information provided, but it's probably not cheap given
| there is plenty of competition. You can try to rely on word of
| mouth/focus on the FSBO niche... but this is a critical question
| to answer. (High CAC?)
|
| 2) This is easy, you charge $995/listing. Is this less or more
| than 1? No idea. (Low REVENUE!)
|
| 3) We can estimate this - you mention 500k FSBO happen each year.
| Let's say you're really successful, and capture 50k sales a year.
| (Low TAM!)
|
| That's a $50M/year revenue stream. As an induvidual that sounds
| large... but as a business that sounds pretty small - for context
| redfin spent $158M in marketing alone in 2022.
|
| 4) Cost to service customer... I imagine overtime and scale this
| could be reduced, but to what level? (Possibly okay GROSS
| MARGIN).
|
| As presented, and filling in the blanks, I think this is a
| currently a weak business model - high CAC, low Revenue and small
| TAM... this is going to make everything you do harder than it
| should be.
|
| ----
|
| Notes on the website:
|
| The website doesn't really sell the _value_ of using your
| service.
|
| The headline says 'Zero commissions'. This doesn't actually add
| any value to the seller.
|
| Your bullet points for 'sellers' are questionable:
|
| Set your home apart? Really? Who will see these listings? How
| will they know it's easy?
|
| Deal directly with buyers? This sounds like work. Why do I as a
| seller want more work?
|
| Close and Save? How does this help me close? What am I saving?
|
| ----
|
| A different approach. Keep in mind I don't know your target
| customers, but here are some idea's:
|
| 1) Charge 10x as much - $9,995. Maybe on a success only model.
|
| This instantly 10x's your possible revenue and TAM... and
| focusses your time on early adopters who see value in your
| service, not cheapskates who are not going to do the work and
| leave bad feedback. Use the extra funds to market and hire!
|
| Alt: Keep cheap, but go deep into viral + addons. More complex,
| so not my preferred route.
|
| 2) Work on understanding the customer and figuring out thier pain
| points. Adjust marketing to fit:
|
| E.g. Save $X0,000 and be in control with PropBox!
|
| E.g. All the control of FSBO, but none of the paperwork!
|
| E.g. Sell your home faster, on your own terms, with PropBox.
|
| 3) Serve customers via concierge model until marketing/CAC is
| dialled in. Then focus on automation.
| moneywoes wrote:
| Phenomenal analysis and suggestions.
|
| I'd love to learn what other metrics and decision frameworks
| you follow to build this type of intuition
| xyst wrote:
| are listings on propbox syndicated to Zillow, Redfin, and other
| real estate apps/sites?
| montgomster wrote:
| No, they are not. We have not approached any other sites.
| Because we have zero commissions they would likely turn us
| away. Good question. I also believe we will do ok without them.
| Thanks for your question.
| smashed wrote:
| Lots of comments about how hard of a market it is to get going.
| Of course it is but just wanted to point out it is possible. Here
| in Quebec there is "du proprio" [1] which is pretty successful
| and are getting significant market share. Anyone I know looking
| to buy is looking at both MLS and duproprio listings.
|
| But I can tell it must be a very tough business. For one they
| have run continuous TV ads for years. The ads are targeting
| sellers only almost, and the main message is to save on realtor
| fees. So I'd suspect it's the listings that are the challenge, in
| a seller's market, the buyers will come.
|
| Their offers/pricing for sellers is very thorough. Yard signs of
| course, but also pro photographers sessions, 3d virtual visit
| thingy (check it out its neat), full legal services to complete
| the transaction... Their online listings and overall experience
| is much better than MLS/Realtor websites.
|
| In the end the platform was bought by PurpleBrick which is a
| slightly different business model I believe, and PurpleBrick was
| bought by a large credit union that might simply advertise
| mortgages? They never attempted to expand much outside of the
| quebec market afaik, but the platform looks like it's here to
| stay and going strong here.
|
| [1] https://duproprio.com/en/
| moneywoes wrote:
| Is it just me or is Quebec an a anomaly? Appears they have all
| sorts of distinct rules
| whynotmaybe wrote:
| Kinda, in Quebec, there are many more consumer oriented
| protections like the "legal warranty" that allows someone to
| request repair outside of the 1yr/2yr warranty usually
| provided by the manufacturer.
|
| The duration of the "legal warranty" is related to the price
| and the usual life expectancy of an appliance. (7 yrs for a
| std washing machine).
|
| It's also illegal to make a loan with too high interest rate
| (above 30%).
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Nice. By the way I saw a 98 year old man who drove his wife to
| the doctor the other day. There are no age limits (assuming good
| health!)
| montgomster wrote:
| Hey,quickthrower2. A lot of my friends think I'm crazy. I
| certainly agree with you. Thanks for the compliment. Richard
| majjam wrote:
| "If that time holds true as we grow the sellers savings are
| between $22,000 and $60,000 or event more depending on your home
| value."
|
| Should be 'even more' I think :) nice site!
| propboxsocials wrote:
| thank you, we'll fix that!
| hacym wrote:
| My two cents: The copy doesn't sound professional. I'd hire
| someone to assist with that immediately
| gus_massa wrote:
| Did you work in real state before?
|
| Can you provide some info about the tech stack? Did you wrote the
| code or you hired someone?
| arjonagelhout wrote:
| I found this website linked on their website under "Blog":
|
| https://dearmonty.com/
|
| It seems they do have quite some experience in real estate
| dewey wrote:
| > Access denied Error code 1020 You do not have access to
| dearmonty.com. The site owner may have set restrictions that
| prevent you from accessing the site.
|
| Hm, seems inaccessible for me.
| montgomster wrote:
| Hello arjonagelhout. I feel accomplished, but I learn
| something new every day. There are over 600 posts on the
| dearmonty website. I write a syndicated Q&A column every
| week, so I feel it is helpful. Ann Landers was my hero and
| she answered every letter. I have done the same. lost count
| but over 5000 replies. This is how I learn more about the
| problems people have. Thanks for the plug. Richard
| montgomster wrote:
| Hi,gus_massa. I have worked in real estate since I was 21 years
| old - never had another job. It has been an amazing ride. On
| your tech stack question, I can barely handle my iPhone. But if
| you would like to know more I can ask my co-founder if he can
| talk to you. Might be awhile we are both putting in very long
| days right now. My email address is on the top. Please get in
| touch. Thanks for your questions. Richard
| schemescape wrote:
| I'm fairly certain I saw a startup a few years ago with this
| exact idea, but I can't find it after quite a bit of searching.
| No idea if they're still around.
|
| They also supported transactions with one side having an agent,
| but in that case it wasn't free. I don't recall how they made
| money (or maybe they didn't, and that's why I can't find them).
| totallywrong wrote:
| Looks great! Thank you for sharing, you are an inspiration
| building this at 77. I can only hope to still love what I do and
| have the motivation at that age.
| montgomster wrote:
| Hey, totallywrong, I love the Clint Eastwood story. He was
| playing golf with Toby Keith a few years ago and Toby asked on
| the course how he could keep going writing, producing, and
| acting at his age (like 90?). Clint was about to swing, he
| paused, and said "I keep the old man out." That is my
| inspiration. Whenyou love what you do and you have a purpose it
| is never work. Thanks for your comment. Richard
| tmountain wrote:
| I like your landing page, what did you use?
| montgomster wrote:
| tailwindui and tailwindcss, vue 3, and bunch of js libraries :)
| propboxsocials wrote:
| tailwindui and tailwindcss, vue 3, and bunch of js libraries :)
| dreadlordbone wrote:
| looks like tailwind/react combo but custo
| montgomster wrote:
| Hello, dreadlordbone. Thanks so much for answering the
| question above. You saved me there. I am glad you looked at
| the site, and I hope you liked it. Let me know if you have
| any comments. Richard
| montgomster wrote:
| Hi,tmountain. I am pretty sure the next reader answered your
| question. What he describes sounds correct. I will thank them
| in a minute.:) Thanks for your question, Richard
| DeLopSpot wrote:
| It looks like the relevant state law is missing in the ToS:
|
| > These Legal Terms and your use of the Services are governed by
| and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of
| ________ applicable to agreements made and to be entirely
| performed within the State of _______ without regard to its
| conflict of law principles.
|
| Also, not sure why you are loading your ToS in an iframe and
| making it non-selectable and non-copyable? Seems rather user-
| hostile.
| gunapologist99 wrote:
| not op, but most states have standardized forms that real
| estate agents are required to use. This is probably a place
| holder until those forms are ready, but given that the entire
| point is to make a legal transfer, that should probably be
| looked at :) another way to look at it might be that this is
| for the early adopters who are interested in splitting what
| would normally be 6% commission, like other 'for sale by owner'
| sorts of sites.
|
| (in other words, this isn't really re-treading new ground,
| which is probably a good thing... there are tons of other sites
| that focus on actually closing a sale with very little
| commissions involved.)
| ris58h wrote:
| I really don't like clickbait titles like this. Is yours
| startup's killer feature your age? Why not describe what your
| service does in the title?
| chrismmay wrote:
| I'm looking forward to more Headlines focused on entrepreneurs'
| race, age, weight or other distinguishing physical
| characteristics. /s
| madsbuch wrote:
| it has been common place to mention it if the developers or
| entrepreneurs are exceptionally young. eg. an app made by a
| 15 year old.
|
| There is a case that this is actually more impressive than
| for a young person to be able to do this.
|
| it is definitely inspirational for me.
| yuvalkarmi wrote:
| I respectfully disagree with the latter part (as for the
| former, you're obviously free to like or dislike anything :)).
| I think we should each play to our strengths - and this is
| especially true in marketing. If this is what ends up grabbing
| someone's eye where they would have otherwise ignored it, then
| good for the author. It's unusual to launch a startup at that
| age, and therefore (in my view) interesting and merits
| discussion.
| ris58h wrote:
| Thank you but I know how clickbait works and I prefer my
| hacker news without it.
| yaseer wrote:
| Agreed, if anything, I actually would have liked to hear a
| little more about the author, given the title.
|
| A lot of startups have founder backstories weaved into their
| pitch. 'Who are you, and why are you doing this?' can be an
| interesting story to tell.
| cutemonster wrote:
| I think it was interesting too. I'm going to mention to my
| parents and a neighbor who is 78 (and btw goes out skiing
| once or twice a week and races with the younger people).
|
| And nice to see that apparently I'll be able to work into
| my eighties, no problems
| p3rls wrote:
| I'm 36 and have been building websites as a hobby all my life and
| this looks better than my stuff :S
| dewey wrote:
| This is 1:1 components copy pasted from https://tailwindui.com
| (nothing wrong with that, that's what it's for) but you don't
| have to feel bad for your UI skills.
| jimmywatersabc wrote:
| Super cool. I really like how clear, clean, and concise the main
| landing page & pricing page are.
|
| Also, as a 36 year old developer, this product and you yourself,
| are inspirational. This sort of thing certainly lifts my spirits
| as I begin the job hunt after a sabbatical.
|
| Thought I'd mention as well-- I heard about this Japanese
| developer who made an iphone app at age 84 and even met Tim Cook.
| [1]
|
| [1] "Meet the 84-year-old Japanese app developer who inspired Tim
| Cook" November 23, 2019. Nikkei Asia.
| https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Meet-the-84-year...
| montgomster wrote:
| Thank you for your comments on the platform. I appreciate it,
| and the small team that did the work will appreciate it even
| more. I disclosed upfront that my iPhone gives me trouble
| sometimes, but I'd be happy to meet Tim Cook as I have a small
| issue with it now. I am hoping that we are successful for many
| reasons, one of which is to inspire seniors not to quit working
| if they want to work. I have noticed there are many seniors
| with a lot to offer that seem to feel obligated to stop, or are
| badgered into retirement by family members or friends.
| Anecdotally, the famous broadcaster and writer, Paul Harvey was
| asked "When are you going to give it up." He was in his
| eighties and still showing up very early every day to work on
| his radio program, "The Rest of the Story." In that
| unmistakable voice, he proclaimed, "I'll tell you when I'm
| going to give it up. I'm going to give it up the moment I find
| something I like to do better.[1]
| [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Harvey
| deserialized wrote:
| Very clean design, best of luck!
| Multiplayer wrote:
| A seller can post a listing on Zillow/trulia for free and get
| massive exposure. What is the advantage here? Is this somehow
| complementary to those marketing efforts?
| montgomster wrote:
| Great question, Multiplayer. There is a huge difference. I
| believe the largest difference is that the companies you
| mentioned client's are real estate agents. PropBox clients are
| the customer. We work for the buyer and the seller. But there
| are many more differences, those companies have no control over
| what the agents do with those leads. PropBox builds many
| features into the platform that is very helpful for both
| customers. PropBox takes all the pain points and friction out
| of the process. I believe our marketing is faster, transparent,
| simple, safer, and a lot cheaper. We are a new alternative the
| FSBO and the agent, and we are hoping a lot of people will try
| it, and if they do they will never go back. It is a good
| question, and I appreciate you for asking it. Richard
| gunapologist99 wrote:
| Posting a listing of a home for sale is entirely different from
| actually selling the home.
|
| Ironically, most states have standardized real estate forms, so
| really it's just Realtors(r) that are clogging up the works and
| demanding 6% commissions. (Actually, it's just NAR; most
| realtor agencies get 3%, for working their half of the sale,
| and then the actual realtor only gets half of that, or 1.5%.
| All of the rest goes to the middlemen, because historically
| buying and selling homes was highly labor intensive.)
| montgomster wrote:
| Hello,gunapologist99. PropBox fixes that problem. Zero
| commissions,Really. PropBox is a tech advertising company
| where sellers buy an advertisement for a flat fee of $995
| upfront + a home inspection and a professional photographer
| with a money back guarantee. Your observations are accurate,
| gunapologist99, you even got the Capital R and the (r)
| correct. Thank you for your comments. Richard
| [deleted]
| m3kw9 wrote:
| Maybe focus launch in a single market first to iron out some bugs
| quickly
| tagami wrote:
| A nice looking site. How are you navigating the mandated broker
| licensing requirements, error and omissions, seller/buyer
| fraud...
| montgomster wrote:
| Excellent Question, Tagami. First off the site has build in
| features that protect our customers, both buyer and seller from
| exposure to fraud and E@O. The customers work together because
| they both want the same thing - a successful transaction. They
| share the same information -transparency. Unlike the real
| estate industry that keeps them apart. All we do is introduce
| them and give them information that is generally available from
| public sources. we empower them to make their own decisions.
| 10% of the total market is the FSBO and we hope to capture a
| lot of them. This is simply an alternative choice to FSBO or a
| real estate company. I hope this helps. Thanks for the
| question. Richard
| greenyoda wrote:
| You use the acronym FSBO on the web site (and here) without
| indicating that it means "For Sale By Owner". Spelling that
| out on the site might make it easier for the average person
| to understand.
| montgomster wrote:
| You are absolutely right. I get lazy or in a hurry
| sometimes but we can fix those. Thanks
| stevespang wrote:
| [dead]
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Good luck!
|
| Just FYI: There's a style issue with the site on an iPad Mini.
|
| When viewing vertically, the About and Sign In buttons overlap.
| JadoJodo wrote:
| This looks great!
|
| Something I found: In the FAQ, under "Caution" there is an orphan
| "A LINK" text.
| taylorhou wrote:
| Your "how likely are you to recommend" prompt from helps out pops
| up on the first field of selling a home flow. Not relevant at all
| at that time.
| stevefan1999 wrote:
| So AirBnb for property selling?
| propboxsocials wrote:
| exactly!
| propboxsocials wrote:
| Folks who are providing feedback. Pls go further than home page,
| try to list property,chat, send offer, etc :)
| sabujp wrote:
| Why is the picture not centered on the top?
| sethd wrote:
| The picture appears to be centered.
|
| The house appears to be centered in the picture, more or less.
|
| However, since there's another house right very close to it on
| the right side and empty space on the left, I believe this
| creates a little bit of an illusion of the house not being
| centered.
|
| Personally, I think it looks fine.
|
| Side note: If I was buying a house that nice I'd want a bit
| more space between my neighbor. :)
| montgomster wrote:
| Hi, sabujp. There was discussion about that but I do not recall
| why it ended up there. Just curious, is there a reason we
| should move it? I'd like to hear your thoughts. Only a designer
| would ask that question, right? Thanks for the question, I wish
| I could answer it for you. Richard
| headline wrote:
| "PropBox is a company of humans" in the about me is quite
| convincing that this company is, indeed, not a company of humans
| montgomster wrote:
| Interesting comment. PropBox is a SaaS product and we expect
| the tech savvy folks will navigate it without ever speaking
| with us. But we are also committed to excellence with customer
| service, especially being brand new with a new experience. I'll
| will take your comment under advisement. Thank you sharing it.
| tomcam wrote:
| Looks good. I'm interested in selling a high-end house. I can't
| tell if it has MLS listings as part of the deal.
| montgomster wrote:
| Hi,tomcam. We have a few sales in a tiny test market. We don't
| use the MLS but we sold every house without mls. That is a long
| story, but we use state of the art SEO, and a unique yard sign.
| We are hopeful that as we grow more an more people will come to
| understand. If you want to talk, the platform has phone, text,
| and email built in. Or send me an email. Thanks so much for
| your interest. Richard
| runako wrote:
| Good luck with your launch!
|
| I would suggest a few things:
|
| - figure out some way to do some kind of quasi-official vetting
| of listings, perhaps as an add-on for sellers. Especially pay
| attention to pricing, because FSBOs tend to be wildly out of step
| with fair market value. You might consider refusing the official
| seal of approval if a property is listed at a price that doesn't
| reflect well on your platform (we've all seen a FSBO that's
| priced 50%+ over market; you don't want to endorse that).
| Platforms like AirBnB offer similar services - for example, they
| will even send a pro photographer out to take pictures and a top
| host to help with your copy. Having a way to distinguish listings
| where a professional has at least looked at the listing to ensure
| it is sane would be a big value for buyers.
|
| - Many people have pushed back on the notion that folks want to
| deal with a person. I tend to agree; our last realtor saved us a
| giant bill on water repairs by making some observations borne of
| experience. However, the flat percentage model doesn't make sense
| given how expensive many homes are today. I would suggest having
| a market of referrals to attorneys (and others?) who can help
| advise buyers through a transaction. This can allow folks to save
| a lot of money while feeling supported through the process.
|
| Really hope you're able to make a dent in the existing monopoly!
| gravypod wrote:
| +1
|
| Having a "network" of inspectors in each state which have a
| quality level of your choosing to pre-inspect every property
| would make me very happy.
|
| Also, criteria search for things which are not listed. Will
| allow you to find areas to target for searches. For example: I
| know for a fact I want to buy >5 acers of land in PA. If
| something came up at a good price I'd be on the market.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| Bug: "Understanding the pros and cons of your options as a buyer
| or a seller if this circumstance arises is here. A LINK"
|
| There is no link
| montgomster wrote:
| Hi, jagged-chisel (love the handle) thank you for spotting it.
| Great find. Richard
| montgomster wrote:
| We will fix it right away.
| montgomster wrote:
| Hello, Hacker news readers: This is Richard Montgomery that
| started this thread. I am overwhelmed with the response. We were
| expecting it would be a couple of weeks before we would have many
| responses. I want to answer every question, and I will, but it
| may take a day or two or three. We have the sign order in, but we
| are waiting to receive it. we expect it shortly. The help and
| suggestions I am receiving is fantastic. I appreciate your
| patience. Thank you all, and please continue if you will with
| feedback. Thank you
| drumhead wrote:
| Its great to hear of someone of your age starting an online
| business like this. Its a real inspiration to a lot of us older
| people here to keep believing that that we can do this as well,
| or that we're not barred from participating in the online world
| just because of our age.
| dbg31415 wrote:
| Few minor accessibility issues.
|
| https://wave.webaim.org/report#/https://propbox.co/
|
| Bunch of front-end security issues. Some of these are trivial,
| but also... if you are going to do something, why not do it
| right?
|
| https://securityheaders.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fpropbox.co%2F&f...
|
| The Privacy page is a nightmare, as others have pointed out. Why
| do this? Won't work with screen readers, won't let users copy
| text... it's bad.
|
| https://propbox.co/privacy
|
| None of the social links in the footer work.
|
| Missing meta description and social medial share tile meta tags.
|
| https://socialsharepreview.com/?url=https://propbox.co/
|
| https://propbox.co/robots.txt gives 404
|
| https://propbox.co/sitemap.xml gives 404
|
| Bunch of trivial stuff that sort of says, "My web dev is a little
| junior."
|
| But cool concept!
| montgomster wrote:
| Hello, dbg31415. This is very good feedback and we work at
| eliminating and fixing, you are being helpful and all feedback
| is good. In my developer's defense, he quoted Paul Graham who
| said don't spend a lot of time trying to make it perfect, get
| the site out there. Who am I to argue with Paul Graham. Thanks
| for your feedback and we will work to fix it. Do you by chance
| know of a vendor that handles privacy and terms of service that
| you find acceptable? I would like to hear from you if you have
| the time. Thanks, again, dbg31415. Richard
| dbg31415 wrote:
| My email is in my profile.
|
| Happy to send you some suggestions!
| propboxsocials wrote:
| Thank you for the feedback
| richardw wrote:
| Good example of a two-sided market, which are quite tricky but
| there's a lot of material out there on strategies and techniques.
| I'd recommend focusing on one area/city at a time to get enough
| buyers and sellers.
|
| Nice work, very inspiring. I'm 50 and looking to start something
| again.
| montgomster wrote:
| Thanks for your comments and suggestion I'm happy you like it.
| Never give up.
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