[HN Gopher] What motorcycles teach about maintenance
___________________________________________________________________
What motorcycles teach about maintenance
Author : ericwaller
Score : 77 points
Date : 2023-06-15 13:49 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (books.worksinprogress.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (books.worksinprogress.co)
| raintrees wrote:
| I use metaphors like this when talking about programming: Any
| system of systems complex enough can easily be
| anthropomorphized...
|
| But they both come back to basics: What is the overall model of
| how it should work? What are the symptoms? What do we know about
| the possible underlying causes of those symptoms? How do we
| design a test to see if the hypothesis is right? When we run the
| test, do we get confirmation, denial, or something else entirely?
| Did the test properly test the right thing?
|
| And so on...
|
| And at some point, is it worth fixing?
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| The biggest part for me is the "reducing complexity" part. What
| are the intended bounds of operation for this piece of the
| system. What upstream effects can hit it or what downstream
| effects can it create.
|
| A lot of analogies here with fuel systems in cars. When a car
| isn't "running right" we generally start with the basics: is it
| getting air, fuel and spark, and go from there.
| motohagiography wrote:
| I maintain my motorcycles but the romance around it is just a way
| to moralize fixing the consequences of my own negligence and
| incompetence:) That said, there's a life or death gravity to it,
| as the failure mode of a bike in motion can get a bit runny - and
| the romance is an instance of the idea that physical competence
| is fundamentally moral, which goes back to the stoics and
| Aristotle, and it underpins a lot of the hacker ethic.
|
| The shortest summary of it I could describe is from the concept
| of "trueness," where you have a wheel or a reference point, a
| straight edge, or even just geometry, so you can physically
| apprehend what something is supposed to do as an objective ideal,
| and then you use that reference to reason, refine, and gauge your
| effort against it. Like the process of truing a wheel. Once you
| have an idea of what the perfect case is, chosing to align to
| that case is essentially moral.
|
| In the case of a motorcycle, someones life depends on the
| integrity of your alignment to ensuring the trueness of the
| moving parts together. The effect of people generally choosing
| this now-moral alignment to precise measures and ideals produces
| desirable outcomes. This is what I think makes bike maintenance
| and other physical competencies philosophical, as their logic
| translates into metaphors pretty seamlessly.
|
| Great article anyway. His comment on the public good of providing
| live saving organs is funny and accurate:
|
| > The supply of organs and tissue from motorcycle riders has gone
| up in recent decades, especially in the 22 states that still
| don't have helmet laws.
|
| It's why EMT's call them donor-cycles.
| unregistereddev wrote:
| Having tried to read Persig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
| Maintenance, I struggle to understand the book's popularity. The
| more I read the more I was convinced it was not the work of a
| healthy mind. Maybe he was schizophrenic? Wikipedia says yes, he
| was.
|
| As someone who enjoys working on my own car and motorcycle - and
| as someone who does find a certain zen in maintaining the
| machines that I own - the book was a profound disappointment.
| Instead of finding philosophical insight from a relatable
| perspective, I found the ungrounded ramblings of a man who is
| seeking to understand a world which only quite exists inside his
| own mind.
| dole wrote:
| Zen was published in 1974, and I believe followed [cashed in
| on] the motorcycle boom from the late-50's to early-70's.
| Chopper, motorcycle gang, and greaser culture was just starting
| to fade and by the time it was published, those reformed 50's
| and 60's hoodlums were coming of age.
| cand0r wrote:
| What stuck with me (I couldn't finish it either) was the
| difference between the main character and his friend's attitude
| to maintenance issues. Specifically the soda can shim
| situation. His friend had a loose handle bar or something, and
| the solution was a metal shim. The friend refused to "use trash
| as a shim" (a piece of aluminum can) and would rather pay
| someone at a shop to fix it. That sort of world view is
| something that always really irked me, but I never know how to
| describe it.
| [deleted]
| StayTrue wrote:
| The author also cites sailors Knox-Johnston and Moitessier. I
| learned about both here on HN and found their respective books
| bingeworthy.
| chayesfss wrote:
| [dead]
| avmich wrote:
| > Maintainers learn to be causation experts when dealing with
| repair. They build two narratives, one for finding the problem,
| and one for solving the problem.
|
| I'd prefer to have those narratives delivered as part of the
| product when maintainer is hired.
| Animats wrote:
| One aspect of maintenance is understanding the mindset of the
| original designer. This is pleasant for very well designed
| machinery. Here's a long description of a Teletype restoration I
| did a decade ago.[1] Mostly this is about the mechanical
| processes, but sometimes I wrote about the thinking behind the
| design.
|
| Teletypes were originally rented, with maintenance included. So
| they were intended to be reliable and repairable, and capable of
| a long life with periodic maintenance. All parts outside the
| motor are individually replaceable. Parts were treated against
| corrosion by Parkerizing, a chemical treatment involving hot
| caustic baths that leaves a rust-resistant coating. Few parts are
| unreasonably tiny, so you don't need tweezers and magnifiers.
| This did result in a bulkier machine than really necessary. Most
| moving parts are powered in one direction and spring return in
| the other direction. If something sticks, that doesn't cause
| further damage. Almost every screw has a lock washer. One of the
| few exceptions was due to a drafting error, as I mention in my
| writeup.
|
| Mechanism design balances size, cost, ease of repair, wear, and
| lubrication requirements. The number of people really good at
| that is not large. All the good Teletype machines were designed
| by two men, Howard Krum and, later, Ed Klienschmidt. There were
| some other, inferior designs best forgotten. (The Teletype Model
| 26 was what happened when management wanted a cheaper machine
| than the classic Model 15. Many Model 15 machines are still
| running; few Model 26 machines are. And the Model 26 turned out
| to be no cheaper to make.)
|
| Once you can appreciate this, you'll see good and bad mechanical
| designs more clearly. It's clearer in the mechanical realm than
| the software realm, because failure is more obvious.
|
| [1] http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=43672
| intrasight wrote:
| >In Pirsig's book there is never a mention of the make and model
| of his motorcycle.
|
| This past weekend I was on a road trip to South Carolina. On the
| way, most every motorcycle that I saw was a BMW. I told my
| girlfriend after seeing the Nth that it can't be a coincidence,
| and I went and found out there was a BMW motorcycle rally taking
| place that weekend. Anyway, seeing some old BMWs made me remember
| the book, and I mentioned it to my GF. She had read it too but
| may years ago like myself - like 40 years ago. But one thing that
| I had remembered was that the bike was a BMW.
|
| After reading the above quoted line about Pirsig not mentioning
| the make, I looked it up, and I had to reset my memory. It's the
| Sutherland's who are riding a BMW, and they don't have an
| interest initially in doing any of their own maintenance. Well,
| at least I remembered that there was a BMW in the story. ;)
| squalo wrote:
| I wondered why the guy who published chapter 2 didn't talk
| about the other couple's resistance to maintaining their bike
| and Pirsig's take on that.
| taeric wrote:
| I find the root premise flawed. I have known many people that
| loved working on cars. The plethora of very old vehicles where I
| live kind of holds that up, as well. My truck is 23 years old,
| and I'm positive it isn't even close to the oldest around here.
|
| Even closer to the general idea, the radio show "Car Talk" was
| less about cars than the name would have implied. Would love to
| see it revived in spirit.
|
| That said, still a fun read. Not entirely sure there are general
| learnings that can't be found anywhere. Such that I would push
| for the takeaway of "don't stop looking for lessons when out of
| the job or classroom."
| korse wrote:
| I think the key is that motorcycle riding hooks you into the
| machine in a way that few car builds can replicate. Motorcycle
| maintenance and riding is a tighter loop, with far higher
| stakes if simple procedures are not followed. Troubleshooting
| may be similar across all machines, but the best
| troubleshooting is not having to do it at all.
|
| If nothing else, the tight loop created by the motorcycle
| teaches preventative maintenance schedules in a way that is
| tough to replicate outside aviation. Or you die/stop riding.
|
| For example, I've blown a front tire in my car at speed on the
| highway with no adverse consequences except having to steer off
| center for a moment and swap the wheel in 5 degree weather. No
| biggie.
|
| My bikes get routine chain, tire, fluid and electrical checks
| however, as a similar failure could end me.
| taeric wrote:
| This feels largely like a post-hoc justification for what is
| clearly more of a hobby.
|
| That is, the miles you have put into a car "at speed" is
| almost certainly far greater than what you put your
| motorcycle through. For reasons of the car giving much more
| utility of use. And the fact that you still have a motorcycle
| is clearly a choice. One that you have to put effort into
| keeping up. That you would also choose to see something
| special about that choice is not at all surprising.
| WheatMillington wrote:
| What a weird comment to make towards someone you know
| virtually nothing about. I'm not the person you responded
| to, but I put about the same number of k's on my motorcycle
| as on my car, more in summer. I consider my bike just as
| indispensible as my car, and don't at all consider it just
| a hobby.
| taeric wrote:
| I said it sounds like it. Meaning that, on my priors of
| every other experience I have with folks that have a
| motorcycle, it sounds like this.
|
| If you are putting the same number of miles on a
| motorcycle as a car, you either don't have to drive much,
| or are in some other very fringe situation. Pretty much
| period. Yes, it can and does happen. It is in a minority
| of cases though. Happy to be shown data that this is not
| the case, of course.
|
| Edit: I got mixed on some other posts, I didn't say this
| one "sounds like it." Apologies for the odd rephrasing in
| this post. I stand by everyone that has every pushed this
| idea forward to me does so in what feels like a post-hoc
| justification.
| OkayPhysicist wrote:
| I use my motorcycle as my main commuter vehicle. It's
| safe to say I drive it 3-4 times as much as my car, which
| only leaves home for grocery shopping and long (2+ hour)
| drives at this point. If you live alone, or even with
| just a significant other, it's a really convenient way to
| get around. Plus it's more fun.
|
| What are you doing so much driving for that requires a
| car?
| detourdog wrote:
| There is a similar type loop between old "British" racing
| cars I spent a fair amount of time driving cars from the 50
| and 60s. The driving experience was a combination of
| boat/biplane/tractor. The little British cars had a certain
| sound that was correct and any variation from that sound was
| heart stopping. The best example from my experience happened
| on the Taconic Parkway. The sound shifted as the fan blades
| started to detach and fly off. I had no idea of the cause
| until I opened the hood.
|
| Here is additional reading about mechanical things from a
| different era.
|
| https://mossmotoring.com/manhattan-mechanic/
|
| https://mossmotoring.com/souvenirs-and-socket-sets/
|
| I'm sure non-brutish cars of that era are similar.
| ben7799 wrote:
| Lots of jobs you can do on a motorcycle yourself in a garage
| are like 100x harder on a car so it's nowhere near as
| accessible.
|
| Stuff like needing a lift, or needing a hoist to lift heavy
| parts like the engine or transmission.
|
| And even almost new motorcycles have minimal
| computer/electronic issues where the manufacturer is hiding how
| to do things. Get the Service manual and it tells you basically
| everything except how to hack the ECU.
| radiorental wrote:
| Right! just last night I had a couple of free hours and
| thought... 'you know, I really should do a preventative valve
| check on my honda 450'. Youtube step by step to the right,
| cold beer to the left. Just bliss.
|
| About the ECU. Bikes are becoming increasingly hobbled by
| emissions compliant ECUs. The aftermarket ECU options allow
| you to tune the bike the way you want. I'm not talking
| diesel-gate here either. My Honda ECU was getting me 40mpg,
| my aftermarket is getting 50-60 mpg but with maybe higher CO2
| per gallon??? I dont understand what the rules/laws are
| optimising for?
| taeric wrote:
| Certainly. But the premise was 'Nobody proclaims "Live to
| ride! Ride to live!" about cars.' Obviously, the bit about
| there being popular philosophy written around motorcycles is
| true, but I'm not sure that proves much?
|
| I'm surprised you would say modern motorcycles aren't harder,
| honestly. Even modern bicycles are getting into the "you
| really can't do this without a dedicated shop" for a lot of
| things. Regular maintenance is easy enough. But that is true
| of cars. I'm always surprised when I hear folks have never
| changed brake pads. Drum brakes are a pain, sure, but most
| folks don't have drum brakes.
| ben7799 wrote:
| I didn't mean modern motorcycles weren't more complicated
| than older motorcycles.
|
| It's just nowhere near as severe as cars where the
| manufacturers are ultra hostile to the owner working on the
| car and even do their best to make it hard for independent
| mechanics & shops to work on it.
|
| If cars were like motorcycles I doubt we'd have movements
| for right to repair.
| taeric wrote:
| Right, I'm still surprised that motorcycles aren't just
| as hostile. Even tractors have gotten notorious for how
| user hostile they are.
| ben7799 wrote:
| In terms of your "Live to Ride, Ride to Live" comment I
| agree with you.
|
| I don't think there's any evidence to suggest passionate
| motorcyclists are dramatically more passionate than car
| guys. Lots of car guys have their entire identity tied up
| in their choice of car and bury themselves financially to
| drive that car and are pretty much obsessed with it.
| radiorental wrote:
| They have, at least the high end KTMs and BMWs. You
| simply can't work on them yourself anymore.
|
| Fortunately there's a constant flow of user friendly "low
| end" bikes coming out of Japan, India and China.
| bertil wrote:
| The motocycle maintenance metaphor was very popular at Facebook.
|
| Talking loudly about your accomplishment too, on the dedicated
| Workspace/Facebook @ Work--too much to the taste of several of my
| colleagues.
|
| Someone once connected the two. They did so using a metaphor that
| compared the sound at the end of the digestive tube with the
| exhaust. I won't repeat it here, but thought it was clever.
| dmckeon wrote:
| I expected the writer's footnote regarding organ donation to be
| anecdotal, but was surprised to find studies confirming a small,
| but significant basis in fact:
| https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl...
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33334475/
| https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/motorcycle-rallies-and-o...
| bityard wrote:
| People in the medical field refer to motorcycle riders
| pejoratively as "organ donors".
|
| Which is fair, given how most riders I see out on the road have
| zero concern for their own safety, let alone others.
| BluePen7 wrote:
| Even as a rider myself, just seeing how others ride I'd
| agree.
|
| If you're going to go twice the speed people are expecting a
| vehicle to go, in a space nobody expected a vehicle to fit,
| in a vehicle that offers none of the usual protections, your
| luck may run out sooner than average.
|
| It's frustrating because everyone wanted to cite the
| statistics at me when I started riding, but I just wished I
| could get those stats filtered by people who ride in a
| civilized manner.
| cand0r wrote:
| [flagged]
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| >One time, when a customer asked him to help revive a beloved
| 1983 Honda Magma V45 that hadn't been driven for two years,
| Crawford responded harshly: "Assuming it's got all the usual
| problems from sitting, you're looking at a thousand dollars to
| get it back on the road.
|
| First, it is the Honda _Magna_. Second, this mechanic took him to
| the cleaners. The Magna isn 't nearly as complex as a Goldwing.
| $1000 for cleaning the carbs and a new battery simply isn't
| honest.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7txrxM-NCc
| dwater wrote:
| "The carbs will need to be gone through, it'll need new fork
| seals, new battery, new tires, probably new hydraulic lines,
| and who knows what else."
|
| The parts for that these days would probably be over $500, and
| around here shop labor is $100/hr, so it would probably be more
| than $1000 today.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| I am not even remotely an expert, but many motorcycles I've
| seen that spent couple of years in the storage, let alone ones
| as old as that, need a lot of gaskets, seals, tubing and what-
| nots worked on or replaced - or at least
| examined/tested/cleaned. Plus you want to give a conservative
| estimate.
|
| Also remember - if I am doing repairs for fun, I only count the
| parts cost.
|
| But if I go to professional mechanic, it's $100/hr in labour.
| So $1000 might be $300 of parts and a day of labour to restore
| to safe operation an old motorcycle.
|
| That is quite in line with the amount of work I've seen friends
| do to bring old bikes back on road (well... my friends would
| spend weeks and dozens of hours, but we're assuming mechanics
| are more efficient:)
| blahyawnblah wrote:
| Couple years ago I took my friend's XR600 out for a trip. It
| had been sitting for a year or year and a half. Two kicks and
| it started. Didn't leak at all.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Same with my snowblower. I haven't a clue how that thing
| manages to start starts!
|
| That being said there's going to be a bell curve. If you're
| going to ask mechanic for a quote, presumably you were
| unable to kick start it doth two tries, and now you're in a
| different bucket.
|
| As well, not all bikes that start are safe to ride. A
| mechanic may - should - have a safety minded standard of
| service.
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| Bike mechanics are in high demand and not super common. The
| quote he gave seemed super on point to me. It's what I'd
| charge if someone asked me to do the same thing. I could
| probably get it running for less but it would probably
| continue to break down over time
| BluePen7 wrote:
| Just due to the lower volume the price jumps up
| unexpectedly.
|
| For the labour of an oil change, I was quoted $25 for my
| car, and $65 for my motorcycle.
|
| To change the oil and filter on my car, you have to reach
| in a super terrible spot prone to burning and cutting
| people who attempt it.
|
| On my motorcycle? It's an enduro, I have a foot of
| clearance and can see the single bolt required from across
| the driveway, it also requires exactly 2 quarts.
|
| I got quite quick at changing my bike oil, and continued to
| pay someone else to burn themselves on my car.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| It's been... A very long time since I've been quoted that
| little for an oil change, by dealership or third party
| chain or an independent. And I do not drive an Audi
| either :-)
|
| Few thoughts / possibilities
|
| - was work done as part of larger work, as incremental?
|
| - does 25$ charge include parts?
|
| - was this a quick turnaround lube shop or an actual
| qualified mechanic
|
| - do you have a relationship
|
| - what's their business model? A lot of them have loss
| leaders because when they change your oil for 25 they'll
| find out you also need a brake change or filter change or
| or or
| doubled112 wrote:
| I knew I was getting screwed but wow.
|
| $160 last time I got an oil change at the dealership.
|
| There is usually one bottle that meets spec in retail
| stores, and it is $80 alone.
|
| I kick myself for the VW diesel pretty consistently, but
| I still have some time left on the Dieselgate warranty
| extension.
|
| Canadian prices?
| salonium_ wrote:
| The article is on a collaborative online platform, so you can
| add comments or suggestions for corrections on the website :)
| https://books.worksinprogress.co/book/maintenance-of-everyth...
| Swizec wrote:
| My local motorcycle shop charges about $200 per mechanic hour.
| I would _love_ a $1000 bill!
|
| On the bright side, I'm learning more and more about sidewalk
| mechanic-ing. It's a lot of fun. Very flow state in that way
| that programming just hasn't been able to scratch in years. You
| go to replace some mufflers and what feels like 5 minutes was
| actually 2 hours.
| inconceivable wrote:
| the trick to wrenching on your own stuff (including home
| maintenance) is to take your time and never rush anything.
| read the directions and watch the youtube video 10x before
| you start. just assume it's going to take hours and hours. go
| to the auto parts store or amazon as many times as is needed
| to get it done right. get the right tools, even the cheap
| version will save you tons of aggravation and frustration.
|
| a lot of younger folks are impatient (past me included) and
| get suboptimal results for a lot of time spent, which puts
| them off of doing work themselves. the irony is of course
| that younger folks have all the time and none of the money.
| they are also the ones complaining the most about how
| expensive home/auto/whatever services are.
|
| this will also teach you the limits of what you actually can
| and can't do, so that when you do spend money on a pro it's
| money well spent. they also prefer to do the more complex
| jobs (less customer overhead, setup and cleanup time eating
| into margins) so it's win-win. as someone above said, they're
| far more efficient at the actual work but you can't make a
| lift go faster or shortcut any consumables used.
| Fradow wrote:
| Also have a plan B if things go south. And yes, that means
| not working on your daily (or someone else) if you don't
| have a backup transportation solution.
|
| Because just like we have bugs in production, things break
| when you wrench on them, even if you do everything by the
| book (note: first-hand experience there).
|
| But those are just setbacks, and no big deal if you are
| prepared for them.
| ambicapter wrote:
| So basically if you want to work on your vehicle, you
| need a second vehicle. That was basically the reason I
| could never get behind doing work on my own car.
| Fradow wrote:
| "Backup transportation solution", it can be public
| transit, or even a bicycle if it's enough to get you
| where you need to, but yes that's my opinion.
|
| Even something as simple as an oil change can go wrong.
| Drain plug broke and you need a new one? Or you forgot to
| put a gasket and it leaks and now all your oil is on the
| floor? Well, now you need a trip to the parts store, or
| order it and wait until parts get there.
|
| In my case, it was a routine maintenance operation:
| changing brake fluid. I used a power bleeder, and at a
| third of the pressure specified on the manual, the
| reservoir ruptured. So now I needed a new reservoir.
| Parts store didn't have it, and it took 2 weeks to get
| there.
| Swizec wrote:
| > at a third of the pressure specified on the manual, the
| reservoir ruptured
|
| Hey, better this happen while you're wrenching than when
| you're zooming through the twisties and need to stop
| BluePen7 wrote:
| Unless you have a bus route that goes straight to the
| auto parts store, yeah that's the ideal.
|
| Often I'd invite a friend over while I did the work,
| keeps me company and that way they can be the backup
| vehicle (and I'd return the favour).
| inconceivable wrote:
| i love how there's a problem for every solution on this
| wonderful site.
| michaelt wrote:
| _> So basically if you want to work on your vehicle, you
| need a second vehicle._
|
| This is the _other_ reason a lot of people will do their
| own motorbike maintenance - for a lot of people, the
| motorbike _is_ the second vehicle.
| mikestew wrote:
| You obviously RTFA, but it's intellectually dishonest to state
| that all it needs is a new battery and a little carb cleaner.
| Sure, you get it running, and take it down the road. Now the
| forks seals demonstrate that they're dried out and cracked, and
| leaking oil. I don't know how old the bike was at the time of
| writing, but let's assume 30 years old. Odds are really good
| that the brake lines have never been replaced. Hell, it's
| possible that it's riding on original tires.
|
| As one who has made the mistake of buying a bike that had been
| sitting a few years, if someone asked _me_ to ball-park an
| estimate, $1000 _might_ begin to cover it. One might very well
| get away with less, but I wouldn 't count on it for my
| estimate.
|
| (And I've owned several Honda V4s over the years: those carbs
| do NOT come out easily, and they go back in even harder.)
| moudis wrote:
| It discounts what you're liable to run into once you start
| disassembling things on old bikes, really. Sometimes you
| discover that a previous owner or mechanic thought red
| Loctite belonged on the screws holding the four carburetors
| together[^0], and your afternoon now involves a torch and
| chasing threads in old aluminum carburetor bodies. Sometimes
| you find that the bike was last touched in an era before
| anyone knew what a JIS screwdriver was, and every fastener is
| nearly stripped. Sometimes it's not even the bike, but that
| the last supply for a part is some shop in Maine that just
| happened to hold one for two decades.
|
| My last encounter with a VFR750 involved a heat gun and a
| pry-bar to remove the carburetors, they're no joke.
|
| [^0]: I love my GS1000G, but this wasn't my favorite part of
| getting it roadworthy.
| taylodl wrote:
| I'm a new motorcycle rider riding a Suzuki and I didn't
| know what a JIS screwdriver was! Thanks to you I do now!
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| No, "all the problems from sitting" for 2 years should not
| include new brake lines, forks, etc. It does need just a carb
| clean and battery. Over-estimates are just as bad, if not
| worse, for a mechanic's reputation. He either did work that
| did not need doing, or simply said $1000 because he didn't
| want that shitty job.
| bityard wrote:
| I restore and wrench on vintage motorcycles. I also balked
| at first when I read this, but I think it comes down to bad
| storytelling rather than a shady mechanic.
|
| A motorcycle that has been sitting for 2 years does NOT
| need a complete overhaul, as you point out. But there is
| much-better-than-even chance that the 1983 motorcycle
| hadn't had ANY major maintenance done to it up to the point
| it stopped being ridden. It was probably parked in the
| first place because it stopped running due to lack of
| maintenance. And everything the mechanic listed that needed
| to be done likely hadn't been done in decades.
| pengaru wrote:
| $1k is a reasonable ballpark estimate for something like
| that sight-unseen from an experienced mechanic who
| understands how to manage expectations and prevent getting
| into situations where he's over-promised and under-
| estimated costs.
|
| When you err in the other direction it tends to produce
| worse outcomes for everyone involved, with the mechanic
| often ending up eating the difference.
|
| (I've worked as an auto mechanic in a former life)
| futureproofd wrote:
| Here in Ontario at least, when you transfer ownership of a
| bike, you have to get it certified for safety. In my case,
| the bike was an '81 xs400 which required a fork seal
| replacement and new front tire (due to side wall damage).
| With parts and labour I paid approximately $500. Fair enough.
|
| Now, if he had recommended a full carb clean and battery
| replacement, of course that would bring the total to over
| $1000. Those recommendations are optional though, and your
| bike can live without them (if you enjoy using the
| kickstarter constantly ;)
| stcroixx wrote:
| He probably also replaced all gaskets, seals, possibly even
| belts. Flush and replace all fluids. Just had this done to an
| even simpler bike for $1300.
| kube-system wrote:
| What Motorcycles Teach About Maintenance: fuel injection is
| great.
| marssaxman wrote:
| ...and shaft drives are the way to ride.
| throwaway5d097 wrote:
| I abuse O-ring/X-ring chains on my dirt bikes, haven't had
| any failures besides a mangled master link clip I caught
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| Or at least insist on a centerstand which so many modern
| bikes unfortunately can't fit because of their complex
| exhaust configurations.
| bityard wrote:
| As the happy rider of a 1979 Suzuki GS850G, can confirm.
| bee_rider wrote:
| I just revived a car that'd been sitting way too long, just
| needed a new battery and an oil change (actually, it already
| ran OK, but I got the oil change just in case). Fuel injection
| is magic. So, what car stuff has taught me about the universe
| is... mistreat objects, they aren't sentient, you just make
| them do what you want.
|
| Someone needs to write "Zen and the art of keeping my
| filesystem tidy" or "Zen and the art of keeping a rolling
| release distro up to date."
| mox1 wrote:
| As a long time gear-head with lots of various engines around
| (cars, motorcycles, snowmobiles, etc. etc.) I would second
| this. Never buying a carburated thingy again. Its electric
| motor or fuel injection.
| pibechorro wrote:
| Carbs are also great. My xr650r can sit in a shed for 300 years
| and if it was clean when stored will start up in 2 kicks or at
| worst in 15min after opening the bowl with one screwdriver and
| cleaning the jets.
|
| There is no fuel pump to break (or weight the bike down), I
| could run the carb with a soda bottle if I had to. There are no
| complex computers to break and brick the bike.
|
| Beyond the reliability, the real value of the carbs is the
| FEEL. This bike is analog, the rumbling sounds, the brilliant
| popping and gurgle on deceleration. Its a motorcycle,
| mechanical gear changes, cable operated throttle, controlled
| explosions.
|
| We loose something with tft displays, riding modes, non analog
| throttles, and every granny safety algorithm in between our
| brains and the rear tire.
| ben7799 wrote:
| Car guys are almost completely unable to understand the
| "feel" difference you're talking about between carburetors
| and EFI because the car's controls are separated by so many
| levels from the engine and basically all street cars have
| such huge flywheel mass that you can't really feel what the
| engine is doing.
|
| And the # of people who ever drove a car that had separate
| throttle butterflies + carbs for each cylinder is miniscule.
| Even with EFI not many people have driven a car that is built
| like a motorcycle. Pretty much only supercars are built that
| way.
|
| Most cars with carbs seem to have had far more issues than
| bikes too.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Lots of fairly pedestrian late 50s and 60s cars had
| multiple carbs and synchronization procedures needed to get
| them to be streetable. (These were common on physically
| long L6 (inline) engines.)
|
| I'd bet a fair number of old people and old car enthusiasts
| have driven them.
|
| My 65 and 66 Mustangs run great as long as I don't let
| modern ethanol-polluted gas sit in them.
| kube-system wrote:
| > We loose something with tft displays, riding modes, non
| analog throttles, and every granny safety algorithm in
| between our brains and the rear tire.
|
| My EFI bike has none of these.
|
| EFI is just fuel metering. And properly designed EFI can
| theoretically do even better at a carb at doing what you've
| commanded the bike to do, because it can adjust fuel mapping
| in many more dimensions than a couple of needles.
|
| I love my carb'd bike for what it is, but it ain't any better
| at doing what I've told it to do. It has character, and I can
| appreciate it for what it is, but it is not more precise or
| direct in feel than my EFI bike.
|
| > There is no fuel pump to break
|
| Some carb'd bikes have fuel pumps
| luckystarr wrote:
| I've read ZATAOMM some time ago and remember it highlighting my
| bias in perception. Mostly you look at things for what "they are"
| or "how they look" but not "how they work" or "their potential
| uses". I found that quite insightful and thought it was
| applicable in my work as well. I can't tell if it actually was
| though. :)
| ljm wrote:
| When I finished reading this book I felt like Johnny Truant
| ruminating on a non-Euclidean house.
| jgust wrote:
| > Mostly you look at things for what "they are" or "how they
| look" but not "how they work" or "their potential uses"
|
| Say more. I feel I'm the exact opposite if I understand you
| correctly.
| KineticLensman wrote:
| The actual quote, from the OP, is "Pirsig proposes that to
| become expert at keeping anything in good repair, you need to
| understand it in two ways--how it works and how it's made"
|
| This seems intuitively sensible for mechanical / physical
| objects, although I'm not sure how well it applies where the
| broken thing is software, with deep complexity and multiple
| layers of abstraction.
| squalo wrote:
| I read the book long before I went to work in tech. In my
| mind, it really helps with troubleshooting software issues
| as I feel better qualified to "fix the thing that's wrong"
| if I have a complete understanding of all the moving parts.
| So many people i work with freeze if a restart doesn't
| work. They don't consider at all the overall design of "the
| thing"
| ethanbond wrote:
| I think the more macro point is that these are all different,
| equally valid, and differentially useful ways to slice the
| world. It's good to have a lot of different ways to slice the
| universe and to use them consciously and explicitly for what
| they're each good at.
|
| I.e. ontologies exist in consciousnesses, not in the
| universe, and they're really powerful tools
| artisanspam wrote:
| I'm curious to hear the perspective of someone who is both into
| motorcycles and bicycles, as I've only ridden on a motorcycle a
| handful of times, while I cycle nearly daily.
|
| Bicycle maintenance can be annoying, but it doesn't seem nearly
| as time-intensive as motorcycle maintenance. On the other hand,
| the process of cycling feels better to me compared to being on a
| motor bike. It's quieter, slower, and great exercise. I can talk
| with others. I feel as though I can get into a state of peace on
| lower effort rides, as well as a state of flow while racing.
| jethro_tell wrote:
| Sometimes going fast is the point, there's a certain peace of
| being so fast the world can't touch you.
|
| Sometimes going slow is the point, and there's a certain peace
| of be able to view and interact with the world in that way.
| sublimefire wrote:
| Motorcycles these days need little maintenance, except washing
| it. I know I know you need to look after the chain and do the
| pre-ride checks, but that is it. I own 2 motorcycles, one new
| and the other old. The old one needs some stuff done but I
| cannot do that myself because of a couple of issues: do not
| have a garage, do not have all the tools. The new one needs
| nothing, it just rides and I need to bring it for servicing
| once in a year.
|
| The most annoying thing for me is that I can leave the
| motorcycle outside with a lock but I need to bring in my
| bicycle into the garden shed (it is just too light).
|
| Bicycle on the other hand is different, it is much easier to
| get a puncture, the bolts get lose, it wears off much more
| quickly. You can also fix it in your home, e.g. change tubes
| and tires easily.
| f001 wrote:
| Motorcycle:
|
| - long distance trips through N America led me close to a ton
| of wildlife I would not have seen or dared come close to on
| bicycle. Mama bears with curious cubs, moose drinking water by
| the roadside, wolves in one case
|
| - allowed me to tackle trails in a day I would not be able to
| do on a mountain bike (eg. the trails around Moab)
|
| - ability to go on roads Bikes are not legal (crossing the
| confederation bridge to get to PEI; don't think bikes are
| allowed)
|
| - ability to traverse distances equivalent to a car, but while
| feeling much more connected to your surroundings. Helps when
| you only have so much vacation time you can take.
|
| Bicycle:
|
| - much more enjoyable trips through Toronto via routes not
| possible on motorcycle (parks, ravines, etc.)
|
| - many trails do not allow motorcycles but allow mountain bikes
|
| - allowed a limited freedom at a young age to explore the city
| around me
|
| - the wonderful post exercise feeling
| xkcd-sucks wrote:
| Maybe bicycle racers / crazy downhill mountain bikers will
| disagree, but half-assed YOLO cowboy maintenance, and deferring
| of maintenance, feels much less risky on a bicycle than on a
| motorcycle.
|
| Of course the powertrain and packing of components is orders of
| magnitide more complicated too, it's more similar to car
| maintenance that doesn't require a lift
| ben7799 wrote:
| I would count as a bicycle racer and crazy mountain biker I
| guess.
|
| I think the thing is a lot of bicyclists are not really doing
| things half-assed YOLO style.
|
| Bicycle mechanics are rarely really professionals. There's
| very little training or education requirement for being one
| compared to motorcycles or cars.
|
| I have had a lot of cases where so called professional
| bicycle shops did work that was so bad they'd be in legal
| trouble if they were working on cars. And I can and do buy
| most of the same tools they do.
|
| The only thing I really draw the line on is I do not do major
| wheel repairs or build wheels or disassemble & service hubs.
| Those jobs are so rare I just can't justify the space or cost
| for the tools. If I only need something once every 10 years I
| just can't see dedicating that amount of space & money to it.
| ecefour wrote:
| To me bicycle maintenance is tedious. It's something I do too
| on keep my bike running smoothly but not something I look
| forward to.
|
| Motorcycle maintenance is more rewarding. I have a 70s bike so
| it requires a lot of work to keep it running smoothly.
| Motorcycle maintenance more complex and I find far more
| enjoyment in it. It can be tedious, but it's not as bad as
| adjusting a derailleur or lubricating a chain.
|
| I think this article could be summarized as "problem solving
| offers many learning opportunities"
| ben7799 wrote:
| I kind of see it both ways. Some really complex stuff on
| motorcycles is incredibly time consuming & hard. The two
| hardest jobs I did on my motorcycles were:
|
| First - Repairs after a big racetrack crash where the bike
| slid and then cartwheeled after crashing around 70mph in a
| corner. Bike would have been totaled for sure if it was a
| street crash. It took me months to fix everything considering
| I was working full time.
|
| Second - Repairing a coolant leak in a horrible spot that
| required removal of gas tank, airbox, EFI system, etc..
| massive surgery. The leak was not that bad but was driving me
| insane and the shops were all trying to talk me out of doing
| it as they said they'd charge me a lot.
|
| Those big motorcycle maintenance jobs were insanely rewarding
| once complete though. And I think they cause you to really
| view that motorcycle as "yours".
|
| Some bike jobs I do find tedious (cleaning) but things like
| adjusting a derailleur I'm so good at it I can do it in my
| sleep so it's quick and hard to get bothered.
|
| Bicycle stuff that bothers me is stuff like routing internal
| cables or bleeding badly designed brake systems. I do tend to
| do those though as the shop will charge like $100/hr labor
| for it and tell you that you have to wait weeks for them to
| do it. Bicycle tools are super overpriced but they still pay
| for themselves after only 1-2 jobs!
|
| Bicycle repair does not grant as much of a rewarding feeling
| when your done and so much bicycle stuff is throwaway. The
| components all wear out pretty fast and are mostly not
| repairable.
| Fradow wrote:
| I do car maintenance rather than motorcycle maintenance, but
| same opinion: bicycle maintenance is tedious. So tedious that
| beside chain greasing and tires pressure, I pay someone
| rather than DIY. I hate adjusting breaks or gears with a
| passion.
|
| On the other hand, cars (and I assume motorcycle as well)
| maintenance is enjoyable: there is no fiddling with stuff,
| you fit it, torque it and it's good.
| Velofellow wrote:
| Very much into both!
|
| I'm at an extreme end on of the cycling hobby by hours spent on
| the bike and miles covered (mountain biking, road biking,
| racing) and currently ride a very modern, and very red Italian
| sport bike - just for pleasure on quiet roads, no commuting or
| errand running. From a maintenance perspective given my use
| patterns (~8,000 miles/year human powered, ~4,000 miles moto
| powered) I'm wrenching, fixing, replacing parts far more often
| on my bicycles. An absolute money pit, but one that gives me
| the best emotional and physical ROI. YMMV but my experience
| with modern motorcycles has been they are almost shockingly
| reliable given their power output, electrical and rider aid
| improvements, etc.
|
| I've had vintage motorcycles that required more tinkering which
| is engaging in its own right but am thankful modern tech has
| gotten to a point where I'm not constantly doing maintenance on
| my entire two wheeled fleet. I get my joy from the use of the
| machine, rather than the upkeep. I'm eternally grateful to
| those who view things the other way. My preference is to wrench
| on bicycles though, mainly because of their relative simplicity
| and limited number of specialty tools required. With 2mm-8mm
| allen keys, and a small screw driver you can do most basics of
| maintenance. Not counting suspension service, bearing service,
| and the like.
|
| Side note: Being deep into both worlds I feel that my bike
| (motorcycle) handling skills have vastly improved because of my
| mountain biking: Body positioning, threshold braking, leaning
| the bike independently of the body vs. leaning with the bike
| etc. Curious if anyone else here has had that same realization.
| I've tried converting some cycling team mates to the moto
| world... few takers but I believe there is true cross-training
| to be had there.
| ben7799 wrote:
| I don't motorcycle anymore but did for a long time and did both
| a huge amount of riding and some very serious maintenance jobs.
| I have kept bicycling thousands of miles a year since. In the
| past I did a bunch of different types of bicycle racing. Never
| did motorcycle racing but I did go to quite a few track days.
|
| In general with a few exceptions everything on motorcycles is
| far more competently engineered.
|
| Bicycle manufacturers brag about engineering a lot but actually
| seem to employ very few engineers. The bicycle industry is
| still re-engineering things like brakes over and over when all
| those lessons were learned on motorcycles decades ago and the
| bike companies could have copied almost all of it from
| motorcycles.
|
| There's just a lot of stuff on bicycles where the tools are
| more expensive than the motorcycle equivalents and the
| maintenance procedures are more annoying. Motorcycle brakes are
| a great example. Things are relatively standard and all the
| tools are affordable and the maintenance procedures are great.
| Do the same job on hydraulic disc brakes on a bicycle and it's
| all terrible. Tools cost 3x more and might be vendor specific,
| procedures are terrible because of the design of the brakes,
| and the job probably takes longer.
|
| You can go spend more on a Trek or a Specialized than a lot of
| motorcycles at this point. Other than the amount of carbon
| fiber there is almost no justification for the price,
| especially since 99% of the bicycle is outsourced.
|
| I always found the education level among motorcyclists in terms
| of how a bike actually rides much higher. The % of "expert
| cyclists" who understand basics like counter steering is
| shockingly low, and bicyclists are far more likely to have poor
| understanding of how to ride in traffic safely. Mostly because
| motorcycling actually has a training & education system. I
| always felt like motorcycling actually taught me more about
| bicycling than the reverse.
| Velofellow wrote:
| Absolutely agree with the high end bike vs. motorcycle cost
| analysis. My new, but prior floor year Ducati was roughly the
| same price as either of S-works mountain bikes. Sorta crazy
| to the uninitiated. Or anyone.
|
| I have a pet theory, that the proliferation of top-shelf
| Class 1/pedal assist Ebikes ($14-15k) has given manufacturers
| the green light to raise prices on top of all the covid
| supply chain gremlins. The number of $10k analogue mountain
| bikes has blown up in the past 3 years.
|
| I do wonder how any cost impact that comes from
| miniaturization of bicycle components (coupled with smaller
| production quantities using composites) looks compared to
| their moto counterparts. Offering the same bike frame with 5+
| different component builds must have some cost ramifications
| with supply chain management in buying /allocating groupsets
| & components en masse. It does seem like the mountain bike
| market has matured a bit: fewer radical yearly geometry
| changes, more streamlining and sensible, incremental changes.
| Just my thoughts as a voracious consumer of bike stuff. I'm
| all for a standardizing brake bleed ports and hydraulic
| maintenance - mineral oil please!
|
| It's funny, I've anecdotally noticed the opposite here in
| Austin. The number of motorcycle riders who clearly have no
| concept of handling a moto seems to outnumber the people
| acting the same way on bicycles. Can't speak to your locale,
| but Austin certainly has a strong cycling community with lots
| of proficient riders; I think I'm also in a bit of a filter
| bubble with my riding crew.
| dahart wrote:
| I'm into all things two-wheeled, have done lots of road &
| mountain biking on bicycles, and road & dirt motorcycling. I'll
| share my perspective, and apologize in advance for the length.
| I wouldn't put them on a single 1D spectrum and presume to call
| one better than another, for me they all serve rather different
| functions. I'd completely agree with the advantages you list
| for road bikes, I just think there are other different
| advantages for mountain bikes, dirt bikes (off-road
| motorcycles), and road motorcycles.
|
| Road motorcycling, especially if you can fix anything on the
| motorcycle, comes with a strong sense of freedom compared to
| car driving, and it's for traveling longer distances. There's
| an aspect of shedding all your dependencies, not needing to
| rely on a huge machine that you can't fix, but still being able
| to go fast & far. Weird analogy, but I find it similar to long
| distance running - there's a threshold for me above about 15 or
| 20 miles where it suddenly starts to feel like I can go
| _anywhere_ with my feet.
|
| Dirt biking is technical motorcycling, shares some aspects of
| downhill mountain biking, but requires a lot of very different
| skills from any other kind of riding. Learning those skills is
| really fun, and being able to get far out into the wilderness
| and access places you can't go by any other means is also very
| fun. The technical riding requires a lot more simultaneous
| clutch, brake, and throttle work than road riding, and I find
| it similar in certain ways to playing the drums in the sense
| that you need a lot of body awareness and the ability to do
| things with hands and feet at the same time. Technical uphill
| riding is very different from downhill and/or mountain biking.
| BTW technical dirt biking can be insane amounts of exercise.
| Some dirt moto rides I've done are equivalent to doing 50-100
| miles with big climbs on a bicycle, everyone in the group
| burned thousands of calories and started bonking by the end.
| Can't talk while you ride, but it's very social; riding with
| others is an absolute must, there's planning beforehand,
| there's lots of stoping and talking, and you can end up with a
| lot of camaraderie when working through difficult features and
| pushing your abilities or helping others.
|
| Mountain biking has all the advantages you mentioned for
| cycling, it can quiet and serene. Even better than road biking
| sometimes since you don't have to deal with traffic. I usually
| ride with others, but sometimes alone is very zen. There's
| anything from riding dirt roads, to cross-country single track
| through the forest, to adrenaline: technical downhill or
| mountain bike park with jumps. Fabulous exercise, and a great
| way to experience the outdoors.
|
| For the maintenance question, I'd say I probably spend as much
| or more time on bicycle maintenance, but it's mainly because I
| currently ride bicycles much more frequently. The maintenance
| tasks are smaller, shorter, and simpler, but need doing more
| often. Cleaning, chain & joint lube, and fixing flats is the
| majority of bicycle maintenance. I bled my mountain bike brakes
| once, and that was pretty involved for a noob, required a
| special kit & a couple hours. The moto maintenance tasks take
| longer per session, they're more difficult, and require more
| tools and knowledge, but they've been less frequent. Changing
| oil, bleeding shocks, fixing electrical, replacing parts. A
| tire/tube change on a bicycle is a 5 minute task, while a tire
| change on a motorcycle can easily take an hour or two if you
| try to do it yourself with tire irons (not recommended!). The
| big stuff goes to a professional mechanic, of course.
| tonymet wrote:
| I spend more time on a bicycle , including commuting , and ride
| a motorcycle regularly. The two hobbies complement each other
| well. The riding experience and maintenance skills are
| complementary .
|
| Motorcycles naturally offer more range for explanation and
| carry more load . i use mine to discover new routes and
| destinations and later hit them on the bike
|
| Motorcycle handling requires similar techniques and the
| mindfulness that is developed on a bike . Though handling
| doesn't translate 1:1- an expert cyclist will quickly develop
| expert moto handling - especially off road
|
| Maintenance has similar parallels. Bike maintenance is a great
| intro to moto maintenance . Troubleshooting , understanding
| systems , experimentation , observation , patience , using hand
| tools etc are all skills that are foundational for motorcycle
| maintenance
|
| I would encourage every cyclist to take on motorcycle riding .
| Motorcycling benefits from a similar mindset and expands on the
| skills and experiences
| Velofellow wrote:
| was typing my reply before I saw your comment. Glad to see
| someone else being a proponent of the "do both!" camp. Happy
| riding.
| tonymet wrote:
| There is a major step change in maintenance difficulty from
| motorcycles to cars .
|
| motorcycles are more exposed and intimate so it's easier to
| detect issues earlier .
|
| Modern cars have adopted more non-user-serviceable tech.
| Intermediate procedures like clutch replacement , brake
| maintenance , tune ups are accessible to beginners on a
| motorcycle .
|
| in general motorcycle maintenance is more accessible due to the
| open drive train, smaller footprint and user-serviceable
| technology .
|
| For those discouraged to put their life in their own hands - it's
| much riskier to put your life into someone else's . You can
| mitigate the risks with checklists and solid testing procedures .
| Trust me , you will develop safety and quality standards that are
| much more rigorous than a shop .
| taeric wrote:
| Careful, there. Modern motorcycles are probably beyond many
| home mechanics, as well. Similarly, if it is for the hobby,
| older cars are fine.
|
| And if you don't trust the shop you are taking your vehicle to
| for rigorous standards, you should probably look into a
| different shop. :(
| slicktux wrote:
| I recently took a car in for a clutch master cylinder
| replacement. It's was for a Honda with a 4cylinder and it was
| buried inside the engine cabin below hydraulic ABS and the
| Break Master Cylinder; I'm mechanically inclined but this
| time I was too busy to make time for replacing it myself.
|
| I get the car back and the idle is rough...it stalls (car is
| running lean)when disengaging the clutch and oddly enough
| brake booster vacuum is completely lost when it stalls...(not
| normal as breaking should work for a couple of pumps before
| stiffening the pedal). Almost crashed...
|
| Anyhow I open the hood check all vacuum hoses for cracks or
| improper connections. Long story short the mechanic forgot to
| put the break master cylinders coupling gasket back on the
| brake booster was letting in unmeasured air causing it to
| lean and stall; which also caused me to loose breaking when
| stalled. Worst case scenario.
|
| Honest mistake probably but I feel like the shop mechanic may
| have been rushing and completely messed up. Luckily I caught
| it. So yea I don't trust most shops mechanics...
| taeric wrote:
| Do you have any reason to think that this is more common in
| shops than in home mechanic things? Because, "left over
| parts" is a stupid common thing that I have heard from all
| teardown and rebuild projects. To the point that I'm
| willing to wager it is more common for home repairs than it
| is for shop run repairs.
|
| Further, you can always split it. Hire them to do it, but
| then you inspect it when done. If you are good enough that
| you can inspect after you did the work, you can inspect
| after anyone else did, too. Right?
| tonymet wrote:
| can you be more specific ? what systems?
| taeric wrote:
| Wrong post? I don't think I mentioned systems.
|
| That said, I am mainly referring to modern gearing and
| injection systems. Basic maintenance is probably well
| within what folks can do. But that is true of cars, as
| well. No?
| squalo wrote:
| As someone who read Zen the first time many years ago, the book
| talks about the joy you get from seeing the world on a motorcycle
| (or bicycle) over being in a tank like car where you don't fully
| experience your environment. At its heart though, Pirsig used the
| concept of motorcycle maintenance as an examination of quality,
| value, and what brings people fulfillment. It takes a meandering
| path to get there which is probably why so many people don't
| finish it. The most memorable thing in the book for me was the
| topic of gumption and how it can so easily be destroyed. In my
| work in tech, gumption traps are everywhere. Reading this book
| made me recognize them so that I could logically decide my next
| action rather than making an emotional decision.
|
| I wish I was articulate enough to properly detail how really
| interesting the book is even for someone who has absolutely zero
| interest in maintaining a combustion engine
| detourdog wrote:
| The book was on the recommended list for second year Industrial
| Design students at my school. The discussion on quality is why
| it was there.
| apsurd wrote:
| can you talk more about gumption (inspiration) traps you
| experienced at work? i take this to mean some powers-that-be
| destroyed internal motivations you had?
|
| also curious to hear your learnings on holding onto
| inspiration.
| Kapura wrote:
| I've been watching mechanic channels on YouTube recently when I
| need some background noise, and It's very interesting to see them
| do their once overs on the car, and hear their initial theories
| get confirmed or disconfirmed as they move through the vehicle.
| You can feel their experience for the sorts of issues that are
| likely or unlikely, and the focus on root cause (whether a
| botched repair job or something broken from the factory) is
| very... motivational? Difficult to describe, but it's uplifting.
|
| One channel is mostly teardowns of different busted car engines,
| and as those are essentially all postmortem operations, they play
| out like murder mysteries as different parts of the engine face
| varying degrees of damage from whatever went wrong (oil
| starvation/clogging typically, sometimes hydrolock or more exotic
| combustion failures). Apart from absorbing some small amount of
| understanding of how internal combustion engines work, the need
| for regular oil changes and inspections has been impressed on me
| about 20x.
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| If you enjoy these, I highly recommend the show Wheeler
| Dealers, especially the seasons where Ant Anstead and Mark
| Priestly are acting as shop mechanics. Their systematic
| approach to diagnosis and clever problem solving are incredibly
| cathartic. And they're also very good at what they do.
| StayTrue wrote:
| Agree the shop parts of WD are very cathartic. That contrasts
| with the buying/selling aspect of the show. I use the ffwd
| function liberally to edit episodes to half their length.
| bluedino wrote:
| I think I enjoy both hobbies because diagnosing a failure in a
| car is a lot like figuring out why something is broken in some
| program/system etc. You just get a lot dirtier working on a
| car.
| cand0r wrote:
| The Just Rolled In channel is good for a laugh. Although it is
| a little terrifying knowing that these people are on the road
| with you.
| WirelessGigabit wrote:
| If we're talking about the same channel it also shows the
| fallacy of having a small engine.
|
| A 1L 3cyl Ecoboost w/ 120hp has the same highway MPG as my 3L
| 6cyl w/ 340hp.
|
| Smaller engines push in extra fuel to cool:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aO2vC_iMTI
| Retric wrote:
| Yea no, you misunderstood what was being described driving at
| normal highway speeds is a low load in his examples.
|
| It's more accurate to say these engines are more efficient
| under normal driving conditions, but have the option to be
| driven at high acceleration or extreme speed. Anyone can get
| poor gas mileage in a Prius if they drive like a race car
| driver, nobody has the option to drive a big V6 efficiently.
|
| Aka Nobody publishes cannonball run fuel efficiency because
| that's abnormal conditions.
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