[HN Gopher] Getting to know the right people (2022)
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Getting to know the right people (2022)
Author : SenHeng
Score : 155 points
Date : 2023-06-14 10:37 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (notebook.drmaciver.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (notebook.drmaciver.com)
| Dowwie wrote:
| Did they find a good plumber using their sophisticated
| methodology?
| getmeinrn wrote:
| Networking is an enormous time sink, where 95% of your
| interactions are unfruitful, but you have to pretend to be
| enjoying them anyways. Maybe you find one connection that is
| worthwhile, and of that one connection, you have to carefully
| nurture it, without giving off the "this is the one important
| connection" vibes, because people can smell that a mile away. And
| sometimes that connection evaporates under mysterious causes.
| It's pointless. I truly can't justify wasting my time doing it
| when I could be producing things that anonymous people appreciate
| and rely on. I'd rather serve them than waste my time playing
| delicate social/power games with people in my proximity that I
| don't even relate to. At least when you serve anonymous people,
| they're generally honest about the quality of your work. You
| can't rely on anyone in these networks to be honest with you like
| an anonymous person can.
| cowpig wrote:
| I used to feel this way but now I am in a position where I
| professionally depend on my "network," and I got very good at
| it by completely changing the way I think about it.
|
| I mostly don't talk to people when I don't gel with them
| personally. When I'm at something like a conference, I talk to
| people whose work I have legitimate questions about, and ask
| them earnestly wanting to learn from them. I'm a curious person
| and I like talking about things I've learned, so this is the
| best way for me to find people I can really get along with.
|
| I put more thought and effort into my relationships with people
| that I can relate to and enjoy talking to. I also put thought
| and effort into thinking about ways I can help them or make
| their lives better.
|
| I also put effort into asking people I trust for advice or help
| on things I care about. I share my own knowledge and thoughts
| freely.
|
| Since I hate small-talk and dislike introducing myself to
| random people, I lean on the people I know who are
| "connectors," people who enjoy making introductions and being
| at the center of social circles. I go out of my way to thank
| them for good introductions.
|
| I also just once every few months go through my list of
| contacts on chat apps and see who I haven't spoken to in a long
| time and ask them how they're doing.
|
| All of that seems to be enough to maintain a healthy
| professional network, and none of it feels bad or cheap, and in
| fact it mostly makes me feel happy and good.
| [deleted]
| barbarr wrote:
| Unrelated note, but I feel like the concept of "networking", in
| general, is something that introverts have come up with to
| explain/emulate something that extroverts do naturally, and
| since the behaviors of networking aren't a natural priority for
| introverts, the efforts are doomed to fail. What I mean by this
| is: introverts will observe extroverts and think, "hmm, what
| are they doing that makes them successful?" and see that the
| extroverts are getting opportunities and advice and
| recommendations through their circle of acquaintances, and
| think "wow, if I do that I'll be successful", and thus try to
| optimize directly for the result (i.e. meeting important people
| and maintaining "relationships" with them) instead of the
| things that lead to the result (i.e. enjoying meeting and
| hanging out with random people).
|
| From my informal observations in grad school, a lot of
| introverts' attempts to "network" end up being disasters where
| they gather people's contact information, make an odd attempt
| at "maintaining" a connection with people out of thin air, and
| the relationship eventually fades away. My grad school actually
| tried "teaching" networking to us, and I haven't met anyone for
| whom this approach worked, because I don't think it's possible
| to teach a personality trait. On the other hand, I've observed
| that extroverts will make a lot of friends and naturally engage
| in reciprocal relationships even with acquaintances and don't
| really put what feels like "effort" into nurturing those
| relationships.
|
| This difference in priorities reflects in what "networking"
| looks like for these groups of people:
|
| Introvert - go to a "networking event" once in a blue moon,
| smile through the awkwardness, hope to connect with someone who
| can directly help you, collect some LinkedIns, look for the
| important people, send a DM or two on LinkedIn, ghosted or
| never talk to those people again
|
| Extrovert - go to some event, grab drinks, talk with a bunch of
| random people, hit it off with some people regardless of how
| important they are and invite them to things (e.g. going out,
| or for some kind of hobby) or get invited to things, hang out
| with new friend/acquaintance later as previously agreed upon
| and maybe even bring them into your own social circle, after
| making many such friend/acquaintances you are now at most 2
| degrees removed from someone important / who can directly help
| you
|
| This is all to say that if networking doesn't come "naturally",
| it doesn't make sense to intentionally engage in the behaviors
| of it, as this commits the error of optimizing for the wrong
| things (like getting people's contact info and hoping for a
| positive outcome), instead of doing what comes naturally to
| extroverts (i.e. just making friends without a particular aim
| where the friend-making is itself the positive outcome).
| Unfortunately, this means accepting the downside of having
| lower access to opportunities than extroverted peers, or
| pursuing different types of opportunities altogether.
| the_snooze wrote:
| >On the other hand, I've observed that extroverts will make a
| lot of friends and naturally engage in reciprocal
| relationships even with acquaintances and don't really put
| what feels like "effort" into nurturing those relationships.
|
| To give a practical example, early in my career I had a hard
| time talking up people. Senior folks seemed intimidating, and
| junior colleagues seemed to have it easier than I did. But I
| found it was easier to talk to new hires as they arrived,
| because they didn't know a lot of people themselves. I was
| the more "established" person in their eyes, so I became
| their go-to guy for questions and advice. I then built up
| good connections with an increasing number of new hires,
| which made me the go-to guy for senior folks looking to
| connect with juniors. Before I knew it, I had all those
| reciprocal relationships and a network in which I had a
| strong reputation. No social gamesmanship at all.
| throwaway22032 wrote:
| Most of my "network" is like, I had a job, we went to the pub
| after work, we got chatting, now we are friends.
|
| It feels weird to even call it a network, that's like
| LinkedIn speak. People I know through work, university, the
| gym, etc, all exist on the same level in my mind.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| cole-k wrote:
| I agree with the nature of your comment, but I would like to
| make a small tweak to it: instead of presenting people as
| "naturally" being introverted or extroverted, I would like to
| posit that the extroverts you refer to are just more
| experienced in these kinds of social interactions.
|
| I'm kind of weird because a lot of people see me as being
| extroverted because I tend to act that way when I'm
| comfortable with a person. But I'm also the type to magnet to
| the sole person I know at a party and only occasionally talk
| to their friends if they speak to me. At the last big social
| event I went to I probably spent as much time talking to
| people as I did walking around aimlessly trying to appear
| busy because I was too afraid to talk to someone new. I don't
| drink but I can understand why "liquid courage" is so common
| at socials.
|
| The thing is that we tend to assume if we see a so-called
| extrovert that they must also not face our same inhibitions.
| But I have not observed this to be the case. Even people so
| extroverted they still are in touch with strangers they met
| abroad on a train (in the time before the internet, no less)
| share in my feelings of social awkwardness. Conversely, I
| know people who are much more meek and mild than I who
| completely excel in a social setting. In both cases, they
| said the edge they had over me was just experience.
|
| If you think yourself an introvert, think actually about how
| many times you've tried to talk to people at socials. If
| you're like me at the last social I went to, then you're
| getting so much less practice than the guy having twenty
| awkward conversations.
|
| At least in my case, I am least practiced when it comes to
| introducing myself to a group of strangers. But I am
| convinced there is a right combination of words and actions
| that you have to get a feel for. I needed to ask someone I
| didn't know a question and a friend of mine went with me; he
| exchanged a few words that I don't even remember and suddenly
| I was enough into the conversation that I could get my
| question out without feeling completely red-faced.
|
| I don't know if you practice presenting slideshows like I do,
| but when I first practice, I'll do a bunch of 30-second false
| starts when I present a new slide. I'll start to say
| something and it will come out wrong or I'll work my way into
| a corner and get stuck, then I'll restart. Eventually I
| figure out the right formula for introducing the slide, and
| the rest usually follows from there.
|
| How you practice socializing is still an open question to me.
| I know I make it sound easy, but I still have trouble
| overcoming my fears. Even if I intuitively know the right
| moves, I lack the confidence to make them. Perhaps my biggest
| issue is that for a long time I did not approach being social
| as a learned skill, so I didn't put myself out there. I do
| believe that with experience most anyone can be the life of
| the party.
|
| Oof, this ended up being a bunch of words. Whoops.
|
| Edit: one additional thought fragment. Part of what drives my
| social anxiety is a desire to be accepted by others. For
| presenting, perhaps this is a strength: I will meticulously
| choose my words assuming my audience is adversarial and I
| need to win over their attention and adoration. For
| socializing, I think it is often more a weakness. Caring so
| much about presenting myself well ironically causes me to
| never want to put myself out there because, well, I know I'll
| be awkward. I still have yet to convince myself emotionally
| (though I know it logically) that most people I meet will
| have forgotten me by the end of the event - or they will at
| least have forgotten the several gaffes I made that keep me
| up at night.
| burnished wrote:
| My experience reflects this strongly! Ironically I performed
| what you describe as extroverted networking relentlessly by
| nature with great success for years, went to engineering
| school as an adult and dutifully attempted to perform
| 'networking' as it was recommended to me and as a result had
| almost that exact 'introvert networking' experience.
|
| Like, your description caused me to recoil in horror from
| remembered embarrassment.
|
| Because of that I think the 'introvert networking' experience
| is simply following the procedure as described.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| >This is all to say that if networking doesn't come
| "naturally", it doesn't make sense to intentionally engage in
| the behaviors of it, as this commits the error of optimizing
| for the wrong things instead of doing what comes naturally to
| extroverts
|
| I hate to say it but you may have a point here. I read the
| example in the article and what goes on in my head is "Do I
| REALLY want to go to parties just to meet friends who may or
| may not know a good plumber in the area?" Or worse,
| "Romantically involve myself in someone to get access to
| their friend group so maybe one of them knows a good
| plumber?"
|
| And I guess that's the point. This sounds like work and
| unnecessary effort to me, wheras it's just a "natural" side
| effect of something an extrovert would typically enjoy. I've
| always been the shopper that comes in with a list and doesn't
| waiver unless I genuinely forgot to list something I intended
| to. I guess that mentality isn't the best in networking
| unless I myself am valuable.
| burnished wrote:
| You could try being the kind of person people want
| favor/approval from by providing some kind of service
| instead? Organizing some sort of event could be good if you
| can find a good fit for your interests - you'll be doing a
| thing that you want or working to accomplish something
| important to you and it'll naturally provide opportunities
| for beneficial social interactions.
|
| Or something else - I think you can avoid the antiutility
| of transparently socializing as a means to an ends by
| identifying a situation where your purpose is aligned with
| your intention, and the socialization is a bonus.
| Terr_ wrote:
| > You could try being the kind of person people want
| favor/approval from by providing some kind of service
| instead?
|
| Unfortunately the people who open PRs against my open-
| source code are the same kind of people with the same
| problems. :P
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| >I truly can't justify wasting my time doing it when I could be
| producing things that anonymous people appreciate and rely on.
|
| On the other hand, anonymity just means people take and take
| from you, and there is less of a human mechanism to sympathize
| with (on both sides of the equation). It's oh so common to see
| a creator start to despise their audience because the more
| savory people are just that damaging to their mentality.
|
| I think it really depends on what your goal is. I think "true
| networking" feels no different from making a close friend,
| finding someone you share passions, goals, and missions with.
| Someone you can call to grab lunch with out of the blue for no
| special occasion without feeling awkward. But in professional
| standpoints, you don't need a lifelong buddy if your goal is
| simply to get a new job or a promotion. I guess being honest
| with that can help cut that tension.
| ghaff wrote:
| Networking isn't necessarily and generally shouldn't be about
| formal NETWORKING events and doing "delicate social/power
| games" as you put it. You just work with people, talk to them
| at conferences, join activity groups that you're interested in,
| etc. Every job I've had since grad school (admittedly not a
| lot) has come through people I've known professionally in some
| capacity.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Entirely this.
|
| "Networking" has been indispensable in every aspect of my
| career. I hate the term "networking", though, because it
| implies it's some kind of special activity. It's not. It just
| means maintaining professional relationships. You "network"
| every day when you're working with your teammates, for
| instance.
|
| Networking events are, in my experience, a pointless waste of
| time.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| OP started out talking about plumbers; if you want to meet
| plumbers (or their friends) at networking events, you're
| going to have to start attending builder's conferences.
|
| And even if you do that, the people you're likely to meet
| will be businessmen, not tradesmen. Tradesmen work, and when
| they're not working, they're either getting training or
| they're on holiday. They don't do "events".
| opportune wrote:
| This, in fact I suspect that these in person power networking
| events are (no offense to those who participate) a market for
| lemons, in the sense that only people in need of a job/career
| change/etc are going to them. People who already have a jobs
| and networks, at least among those I know, wouldn't go to
| these events. Maybe they would if they were hiring, but
| probably they'd be more likely to go to a job fair than a
| more open ended networking event, since the hit rate would be
| higher.
|
| Former bosses and coworkers, friends from college, etc are
| great additions to my network. I was never going out of my
| way "to network" with them, they're connections I built from
| going out in the world and doing stuff. Random people on
| LinkedIn or who I met once and exchanged GitHubs or LinkedIn
| with, unless they were actively trying to hire people, have
| never been valuable IME, despite them being actively
| "networking."
| ghaff wrote:
| Not even networking events per se, but I've been at many
| local cheap/free conferences because I was interested in
| some of the topics, was speaking, etc. And, especially if
| the industry was in a bit of the doldrums at the time,
| you'd have a ton of people intent on exchanging LinkedIns
| or trading business cards and fairly obviously solely there
| to try to get a lead to a job _somewhere_.
| getmeinrn wrote:
| As a counter point, only 1 of the 5 tech jobs in my career
| have come through a connection. It can be done, and in the
| long run I think it's better for personal and professional
| growth to get opportunities that way. Not to mention that
| every time you get an opportunity through a connection,
| you're potentially screwing over someone else more qualified,
| without a connection.
| kfrzcode wrote:
| "you're potentially taking X outta more-qualified Y's
| hands"
|
| Why is this limitation mindset present in some people and
| not others? I understand quite fully that there is a
| difference in mindset between growth/limitation but...
| you're not "Taking a job" if they're more qualified and
| better-suited, the employer can hire them instead of you,
| but they didn't. It's not a zero sum world.
| getmeinrn wrote:
| I've been part of different hiring processes long enough
| to see just how many people get hired because they know
| somebody on the team, when there were other candidates
| who were as qualified or more qualified. When we can hire
| 1 person, my experience is that it is 1000% biased
| towards knowing somebody. Sure, if there is an undefined
| number of open reqs, you can argue that there is still
| space for the more qualified, unconnected applicants. But
| when you're dealing with a finite number of open reqs,
| there's actually not, and it is a zero sum game.
| ghaff wrote:
| Well, pretty much most people know that interviews aren't
| a great way to assess signal--certainly at the margins.
| So as long as someone seems qualified, a team member who
| has actually worked with them in some capacity who
| vouches for them tilts the scales quite a bit.
| getmeinrn wrote:
| Yep, and if you've ever worked with someone who is a
| "dud" but leveraged their connections to get the
| position, you'll know how frustrating it is to realize
| you're competing with this outsized advantage.
| etothepii wrote:
| How are you defining this? You made cold outreach to the
| companies for job postings you saw adverts for?
|
| I ask because if recruiters were involved they are often
| power networkers that will unashamedly ask the people you
| know, "who do you know that would be good for this job."
|
| My cofounder got two jobs because after they rejected me I
| told the agent they should hire him instead and they did.
| kevstev wrote:
| I think the key point here is that there is "networking" as
| in making friends with people you spend meaningful time
| with vs "Networking" in the sense of going to parties or
| meetups in hopes of shaking hands with and BSing with
| someone for 5 minutes and linking in with them- and this
| seems to be the type that most push.
|
| Most of the important networking happens naturally and is
| never a forced thing. I worked with a group about 20 years
| ago now, doing some stuff that was groundbreaking and we
| all still keep in touch and will absolutely vouch for one
| another and get each other jobs if we need to, but not once
| did I ever think about my time with them as networking.
| Same with some other jobs as well. But that DBA guy on
| another team that I was constantly having to pull teeth
| with to get any work out of that sent me a linkedin
| request? Its probably better for him that I forget his name
| and give him a second chance then remember how mediocre I
| felt he was.
|
| I have been to conferences, and spoken at my share of them,
| and there are always "Networking" events around these, and
| even when I was actively hiring and looking around the
| room- with something to offer!- none of these resulted in
| any meaningful or long lasting relationships.
|
| Yes, having a network is important. But the way to build it
| is to earn the trust, respect, and friendship of those
| around you. I mean I guess you can push this along a bit by
| going to happy hour and trying to bond a bit, but
| networking to me is 95% an organic thing and not something
| you should force, especially in tech.
|
| I guess a caveat to that is that some people have to- and
| should- work to be generally likable. I have known some
| very smart people I would really prefer to never have to
| work with again.
| getmeinrn wrote:
| >I guess a caveat to that is that some people have to-
| and should- work to be generally likable. I have known
| some very smart people I would really prefer to never
| have to work with again.
|
| I think you hit on something here. When someone is viewed
| as generally unlikable, excluding them is contagious. No
| matter how hard they work at it, it will always be
| socially easy and acceptable by the in-group to exclude
| them. There is relatively no pressure on the in-group to
| work at being more accepting towards "unlikable" people,
| like there is for those people to "work to be likable."
| People are extremely unforgiving in social interactions.
| arbuge wrote:
| Back when I needed to hire a specialized lawyer several years
| ago, the way I solved that was interviewing all the local lawyers
| in that area I could find. One of the questions was always who
| they'd hire for this case if they couldn't hire themselves. You
| build a picture that way.
|
| Doesn't work in all cases of course. Plumbers would probably
| think that's weird.
| [deleted]
| gen220 wrote:
| This is a nice angle on bootstrapping Social Capital [1]. There's
| been much ink spilt on the "decline of social capital" in the
| developed world in the last few decades [e.g. 2].
|
| One interesting implication of all this is that we seem
| increasingly complacent with depending on private companies and
| social welfare to fill in the gaps that were previously filled by
| our "village", so to speak.
|
| In a densely-connected network with lots of social capital, many
| companies/programs don't make much sense. The company might be
| able to provide the service (food prep/delivery, laundry,
| transportation, home maintenance, health care services) more
| "efficiently" and at less "cost", but they carry an opportunity
| cost of failing to accrue of social capital.
|
| From that lens, you can view these companies as a kind of tax on
| social capital. They accrue wealth at the expense of our
| networks. And we rejoice, because we save a marginal 10 cents on
| the dollar, which we reinvest in equity of the same companies
| that tax our social capital.
|
| I don't intend to apply any morals or draw any conclusions, it's
| just a thought-provoking way of looking at startups, these days,
| this theme of "profiting from the eroding fabric of american
| society".
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_capital
|
| [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone
| totallywrong wrote:
| I think networking is way overrated since there's Linkedin.
| Unless you need very specific contacts or something, recruiters
| will reach out and about 10% will have great roles. Sure, a
| direct connection might get you an opportunity faster, but for
| people like me who aren't naturally inclined to do so, the work
| of nurturing a network probably offsets the potential missed
| opportunities.
| tycho-newman wrote:
| > Many networks are Not For People Like You - you're the wrong
| race, class, or gender. You didn't go to the right schools. Your
| family's ancestors didn't subjugate the right people three
| generations back along with the other members of the network. Or
| maybe you're just too weird and the people in the network don't
| want to put up with that. Some networks are just exclusive and
| nothing you can do will gain you access to them.
|
| As much ink as we spill on the loneliness epidemic, there's
| something to be said about an atomized society where surviving,
| and in a more ideal world thriving, does not depend on the
| quality the network the birth lottery gave you, or the one you
| are confined you in by centuries of prejudice.
|
| I'll speak for myself; I've had really bad experiences with in-
| groups of all kinds - especially kinship groups - that make me
| suspicious of networks. I'm glad that my ability to feed myself
| isn't tied to any specific in-group/network. Instead, it relies
| on a global capitalist network that can ship bananas from Central
| America and sell them to me for $0.79 a pound. All of this labor
| done by people who I will never meet, but rely on completely for
| my survival.
|
| If it weren't for the fact that this vast global network didn't
| rest on rapine exploitation, I'd say we were on to something. But
| alas, this monument to greed that enables my misanthropy is not
| humane. So perhaps to create a more humane world, I should
| develop the ability to be vulnerable with other people.
|
| No. No! Atoms or t h e v o i d !
| Conscat wrote:
| > How do you make new friends?
|
| > How do you go to parties?
|
| > How do you find someone to date?
|
| These are actually impossible.
| pizzafeelsright wrote:
| Yes, with that attitude, entirely impossible.
|
| People are inverted magnets. Positive attitudes attract
| positive people. Negative attitudes repel.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| This resonates.
|
| I have a really good electrician on my contacts list. He's an
| individual, not a gang; he's really good, and takes all the
| annual training and then some; and his client list includes some
| very classy organisations.
|
| But he can't recommend a builder to me.
|
| Nor a plumber; but I have an OK plumber. It's a firm, not an
| individual, and I've had people rock up that were rather
| arrogant. But nobody incompetent has turned up. Oh, and they're
| pricey.
|
| But they can't recommend a builder to me either.
|
| People have told me to use a service such as TrustaTrader. But I
| don't trust them; they take payment for listing.
| operatingthetan wrote:
| Drive up to job sites and ask the subs there who they are
| contracting for and if they like them. Network from there.
| SenHeng wrote:
| I chanced upon this article and found it thought provoking. I'm
| essentially starting from zero, as I moved from the big city into
| a rural mountain area 2 years ago by myself and only know a
| handful of people. So I've been wondering what was a good way to
| bootstrap a social network for someone that's just awkward around
| strangers. I also don't have family in this country.
|
| Things I've tried.
|
| Joining local sports groups, am told they're full because of too
| many new members lately.
|
| Working out at the local gym, this was actually how I met my
| first friend. I probably should go more often but I wanted to try
| out another gym.
|
| Going to local events, flea markets, etc. I see people I know and
| greet them, but they're usually already with other people and
| it's awkward interrupting them. I generally stick around and chat
| for a few minutes, then I just leave because it's just weird
| forcing myself into a group.
|
| Work out of a co-working space once a week. Took a bit of time to
| find the right venue. Most of the places I've been to, people
| stick to themselves. Finally found one where there's some kind of
| community.
|
| As an off shoot of the above, I'm looking for a gym near the co-
| working area so I have less excuses not to go.
| cole-k wrote:
| I'd also like to give you kudos.
|
| I've been dealing with a similar thing, but for me part of the
| problem is the difficulty of even taking the first step. It
| seems like you've taken many first steps!
|
| I think there's an issue which you're avoiding that the article
| doesn't mention. In our world, you can send a text message to a
| friend halfway across the world and receive a reply instantly.
| I've found that it can be hard to forge new relationships when
| you can simply go online and find the comforting and enduring
| ones you've cultivated for years or even decades. It's a lot
| harder to force myself to make introductions at a party when I
| can whip out my phone and chat with someone I've known for ten
| years.
|
| It feels weird to say that someone who seems to be antisocial
| may actually be engaged in more simultaneous conversations -
| just none of them happening at that present location. But I
| think also that there are many (important) reasons to have
| relations physically close to you.
| groby_b wrote:
| > am told they're full because of too many new members lately.
|
| This is good. This is a group that works well.They likely can
| give advice on where to ask, and whom to avoid. "Aww, I
| would've loved to play with you. Sorry that didn't work out -
| do you have recommendations where I could look?" is a good
| request.
|
| > I generally stick around and chat for a few minutes, then I
| just leave because it's just weird forcing myself into a group.
|
| The chance that you are the only singleton is small - find the
| other ones, talk to them. But also, talk to people about their
| interest. E.g. on the flea market "Hey, that's such a gorgeous
| set of drawers you're selling, really admire it, bummer I can't
| make space" gives them an opportunity to tell you a story.
| (Most people like telling stories about themselves. Give them
| the space to tell you that story.
|
| Yes, both of these are freaking scary. (Well, they are to me,
| at least). But they are a good way to form at least a tenuous
| connection. And next time you see them, you have somebody you
| know. _Especially_ in rural areas, folks often have deep
| networks and are roping you in once they have ascertained you
| are "safe" for group consumption.
|
| (Downside: Some of these deep networks in rural areas are
| super-cliquish. I've lived in a place that talked about people
| as "the new folks" when they moved there 20 years ago. You can
| become surface friends, but deep friendship in those places
| takes forever. Find the other "new folks")
| waboremo wrote:
| I think you might just not be allowing time for the seed to
| sprout.
|
| You should be proud of doing some of the hardest tasks already,
| so focus more on planting the seed and letting it grow by
| regularly showing up and watering it. So much of networking is
| pure chance. Showing up to the same coffee shop, remembering
| that grocery clerk, going to the same gym every Tuesday,
| helping out with the same conference group. That repeated
| action creates a natural sense of trust between people so it
| becomes much easier to form connections.
|
| I've met people through volunteering, but I wonder would we
| have become friends if I didn't just keep showing up? Maybe the
| day we met they could have skipped volunteering because they
| had something else planned in their usual volunteer time slot,
| but since they chose to volunteer earlier in the day our
| schedules finally aligned. Those sort of thoughts, but it's
| happening all the time! The universe is strange like that. Fate
| I guess.
|
| It's not easy, especially as an adult, but really you just have
| to give yourself time to grow in whatever space you want to be
| in and let the universe do the rest.
| dahwolf wrote:
| I once was at a conference with my (former) boss where I got an
| inside peek at how a professional networker goes about it.
|
| The conference sessions had ended, flowing into the evening
| program which pretty much was the bar. Just before heading into
| it, she shared a paper note with me.
|
| It had a list of persons to talk to, for how long, the ice
| breaker, the excuse to exit the conversation and move to the next
| one, the importance of each target.
|
| Not knowing anybody at the conference, I just sat at the end of
| the bar, had some light "conversation by proximity" but mostly
| watched her execute the networking plan. To the casual and
| unknowing observer, a cheerful social butterfly "happens" to bump
| into random characters but I knew more. The only visual clue was
| her eyes shooting across the room and her watch any time her
| current conversation partner looked away for a second. Scanning
| for prey.
|
| I bet that as she returned home, she updated that massive network
| diagram in her garage to update the weights and other attributes.
|
| Whilst you might just call this clever professional behavior, I
| found it chilling. Engineered, not genuine, "working" people to
| get what you need. I wonder if normalizing that bleeds into
| personal relationships.
|
| Does it work though? Hell yes it does.
| dnedic wrote:
| This feels extremely weird to read as someone naiively
| approaching networking where I actually want to talk to people,
| not just their professional side.
|
| On the other hand it might even be suboptimal in the long run
| because when you hire or partner with someone, you don't just
| hire their knowledge or expirience, you hire their personality,
| drive and creativity.
| dahwolf wrote:
| It came across as quite cold-hearted to me. But you don't
| have to take it that far. In particular the learning can be
| that you can somewhat engineer a conversation by preparing it
| well.
| soperj wrote:
| I had a sibling who did this, they wouldn't write anything down
| though. It absolutely bleeds into every relationship because
| that's what relationships are to them.
| lc9er wrote:
| Patrick Bateman vibes
| cainxinth wrote:
| I had an eye opening lesson on optimizing for the human factor
| from a friend in law school. I missed a class and asked to
| borrow his notes. His note taking style was very different from
| mine. I was focused on the details in the textbook.
|
| He had all of that, but also included notes on the professor.
| For example, if there were multiple prevailing legal theories
| for an issue, he would put a note next to one and write "Prof.
| seems to prefer this." He was clocking the professor's take on
| the issues so that come test time he could craft answers that
| appealed to their predilections.
|
| Law professors, like many lofty scholars, often think they know
| best and simply love students that stroke their egos. My
| friend, finished second in our class. Well ahead of me!
| dahwolf wrote:
| That is both clever and creepy. It's as manipulative and
| opportunistic as my example, but clearly it works.
| JackFr wrote:
| It's most likely that every single one of her "targets"
| understood that they were being targeted and everyone
| understood the smalltalk for what it was, and there's nothing
| wrong with that.
| dahwolf wrote:
| Surely they would understand it's an opportunity for
| networking, but I'd still say Tom would be a little surprised
| to read this:
|
| "Tom: spend max 10 minutes on him as he's the vehicle to his
| boss Richard that is my gateway to a promotion. Ice breaker:
| he's a dweeb that studies fungi. Memorize one fungi name and
| say it grows in my garden and you're about to eat it, so that
| Tom can save my life by saying its toxic. Exit: isn't that
| Richard, your boss? I'm going to tell him how you saved my
| life lol."
| comicjk wrote:
| Your original comment didn't say that the notes contained
| insults and planned lies (beyond the dishonest appearance
| of spontaneity). Is this sample an exaggeration? It
| certainly looks a lot worse this way.
| _wow_ wrote:
| It kind of makes sense that their strategy would involve
| cold, manipulative tactics, given the goal is to
| successfully trick each person they talk with into
| thinking they actually are interested in them as a
| person.
|
| I find it disgusting and terrifying, but not all that
| surprising.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Of the tips in this article, I think this one is simultaneously
| the most well-known and the most underrated:
|
| > Getting a job gets you a professional network, which you can
| try to turn into a friend network.
|
| Getting a job isn't enough to start building a network. You have
| to do well at that job, be a good person to work with, and step
| out of your comfort zone to meet new people.
|
| I've seen a growing number of people learn the hard way that your
| behavior in the final months of a job leaves a lasting
| impression. One of the most motivated engineer ladder-climbers I
| know was very good at interviewing and getting new jobs, but he
| developed a habit of burning bridges on the way out: After about
| a year at the company he'd gradually diminish his work output and
| spend 80% of his day searching for new jobs, interviewing, and
| negotiating bigger raises at his next job hob. This worked for a
| while, but after 4 or 5 rounds he had built a reputation for
| slacking off for a few months and then leaving companies. Word
| traveled, and he discovered that new jobs would only hire him
| with longer vesting schedules and sign-on bonuses that had to be
| paid back if he left before 2-3 years. Eventually _nobody_ well-
| connected wanted to hire him because they had heard so many
| stories about him underperforming and bailing at the 1-year mark,
| despite interviewing well and performing great in the first few
| months. He finally moved out of state to start over in a new
| network.
|
| What I'm saying is: The strongest networking you do might not
| feel like networking. It's years of accumulated reputation. Word
| travels and people check references. Reference checking felt like
| it was paused for a few years when everyone was hiring as fast as
| possible, but now I'm getting reference check calls/texts/DMs
| more than ever before.
|
| I've had mixed results with networking-focused activities. I've
| met some good people at networking events, but you have to
| actively filter out the loud professional networkers and seek out
| the other people like yourself. The best contacts are not always
| the loudest, most outgoing, most extroverted people at these
| events. In fact, some of those people are sharks who are only
| interested in networking as far as they can use you for leverage,
| clout, or your connections. Tread lightly.
| somesortofthing wrote:
| > Word traveled, and he discovered that new jobs would only
| hire him with longer vesting schedules and sign-on bonuses that
| had to be paid back if he left before 2-3 years.
|
| I've occasionally heard anecdotes like this but I have a hard
| time imagining how this kind of thing ever happens outside of
| very small population centers with less than ten tech
| employers. Unless he's some kind of executive where huge
| amounts of resources are devoted specifically to vetting and
| networking _is_ the interview process, what incentive is there
| for people in charge of hiring to share such granular info with
| one another? Is everyone in charge of hiring at major tech
| companies just in a big whatsapp group exchanging dirt on
| employees they didn 't like?
| oofnik wrote:
| > Is everyone in charge of hiring at major tech companies
| just in a big whatsapp group exchanging dirt on employees
| they didn't like?
|
| Yes.
|
| Source: family member who works in HR
| tsunamifury wrote:
| How, in FANG alone there are THOUSANDS of HR members that
| rotate in and out like a revolving door. They barely know
| eachother let alone any of the workers save a few
| executives they worked for.
|
| Don't believe this practically
| blackbear_ wrote:
| You took the statement too literally. Of course there is
| not a _single_ whatsapp group, but hundreds of them.
| People working in HR have lots of friends who also work
| in HR, meet HR friends of their HR friends, they talk
| with each other, and so on.
| jedberg wrote:
| There is a lot of backchannel reference checks. If you're
| about to make an offer to someone and you're in HR, there's a
| really good chance that you have a friend in HR at their
| previous company. Or if you're a hiring manager there is a
| good chance you have a friend who is a manager. You send them
| a quick note for a backchannel reference check.
|
| It happens all the time.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| >You have to do well at that job, be a good person to work
| with, and step out of your comfort zone to meet new people.
|
| I argue you need to do these things just to maintain a job.
| Especially once you're no longer a junior.
|
| >I've had mixed results with networking-focused activities.
| I've met some good people at networking events, but you have to
| actively filter out the loud professional networkers and seek
| out the other people like yourself. The best contacts are not
| always the loudest, most outgoing, most extroverted people at
| these events.
|
| like most of life, unfortunately. meeting people you mesh with
| in general is hard.
| Animats wrote:
| Depends on what you want. Do you really need a good plumber? The
| plumber you need to fix a leaky faucet is completely different
| from the plumber you need for an upgrade of hot-water delivery in
| a high-rise building that's putting in an upper floor restaurant.
| Most plumbers can do the former. Few can do the latter well. If
| you can frame that question and ask it to someone in an adjacent
| business, such as a landlord, you might get a good answer.
|
| That's a useful strategy. If you need a good plumber, ask someone
| who buys a lot of plumbing services.
| juancn wrote:
| "Making friends on Twitter is much easier than making friends
| offline."
|
| I find the opposite is true for me. I don't quite get how to
| connect on Twitter, but I have no problem making friends offline.
| tsunamifury wrote:
| After being laid off from FANG, I feel this essay painfully. One
| things I've learned is that people in FANG companies are a VERY
| SPECIAL breed and tend to only have connections in other FANG
| companies and they are next to useless in the real world. So when
| things are going well FANG network helps, but when they are going
| badly like now -- their value from a job perspective is nearly
| useless.
|
| They have hyper narrow network and experience that applies almost
| entirely to FANG culture, scale and goals. They have very very
| few real money connections, like VCs etc, and really haven't
| built much reputation there since they have been with FANG their
| entire career.
|
| They also have a certain enui that really is entirely about "I
| can never leave FANG even thought I don't like it, because I
| don't believe I can function anywhere else."
|
| It's a bizarre situation. But fortunately I came across a 'hyper
| node' (people who just happen to have hundreds of high quality
| connections) and she helped us get to funding conversations and
| even deep inside some competitors to learn whats going on. So
| lesson is of me, you might not need the network, but it do need
| to know the person that does!
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Yes. After leaving Google it took me a number of months to give
| my head a shake and start restoring old connections and
| networking habits from before I got stuck there. Google at
| least is a bit of an echo chamber, and company policies around
| external open source contribution, etc. plus the arrogant
| internal engineering culture tends to de-emphasize networks and
| approaches from the outside. I imagine this is common across
| the SV BigCorps.
| mucle6 wrote:
| "I can never leave FANG even thought I don't like it, because I
| don't believe I can function anywhere else."
|
| I relate with this so much. FANG pays a lot and doesn't work
| you that hard so they make it so you have to really want to
| leave to leave
| turtledragonfly wrote:
| I liked the postscript: Not really sure why this
| piece was abandoned. I think it was too large and I didn't
| quite know what I was building up to, partially because I
| was theorising about a problem that I haven't had a huge amount
| of success with personally.
|
| In particular because I liked the article, and I'm glad they
| published it even though it wasn't finished and had some
| (acknowledged) missing bits.
|
| There are a lot of hollow articles out there which _look_
| polished, and there are a lot of un-polished articles (or even
| un- _published_ ) that are actually good, and I for one would
| like to see more of the latter.
|
| It's good, and brave, to publish something that's a little
| unfinished or scattered or doesn't seem to have a Final Point
| being made. There can still be good nuggets inside, even though
| it invites criticism from the peanut gallery (not the fine folks
| on HN of course, but just in general).
| la64710 wrote:
| Monetize good networks ...
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| A strategy I've found most recently is to take something you're
| good at and make a spectacle of yourself. The ones that find you
| are the networkers. Presumably they can then introduce you to
| people who are skilled in ways that you aren't (i.e. domains
| you're not capable of making a spectacle in).
| munificent wrote:
| Absolutely. The classic social success for an introvert is to
| be adopted by a well-meaning extrovert.
|
| This is a mutually beneficial relationship because introverts
| are often just as interesting and valuable friends as
| extroverts are, but have less time competition from other
| friends. So the introvert gets someone who will help maintain
| their network, and the extrovert gets a good friend with
| relatively greater time availability.
| uoaei wrote:
| Actually this is very key. Knowing someone who wants to be, or
| otherwise excels at being, the center of a huge network, is a
| great resource. The trust barrier is lowered during new
| introductions to their connections by virtue of the person
| introducing you, so making genuine connections is a lot easier.
| Otherwise it feels like that weird kind of forced interaction
| that usually ends with standing there in silence for a while.
| gen220 wrote:
| I've heard this advice summed up as "make yourself a beacon".
|
| i.e. just start talking in a public square. If you talk long
| enough, you'll find people who want to talk about the same
| thing, and they'll introduce you to their friends.
|
| IME it works pretty well, and with the internet, it's never
| been easier.
| Tade0 wrote:
| I love the writing style in this piece. Feels a lot like some
| kind of transcript from a talk.
|
| Anyway, in my household it's my SO who handles the networking -
| she's brilliant at this and spent the last few years creating her
| network from scratch after we moved to this city. I get to tag
| along as the "neighborhood IT guy".
|
| Meanwhile, after over a decade in this industry and scooping up
| contacts from each organization I've been to, as I recently
| discovered whilst trying to lubricate the relationship between a
| friend of mine and a prospective employer, I can achieve
| precisely dick with the network that I have.
|
| One thing that naturally works to her advantage is giving off an
| aura of the least threatening person in the world. People just
| open up to her. Unfortunately this is not replicable.
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