[HN Gopher] The Kentucky Derby is decadent and depraved (1970) [...
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The Kentucky Derby is decadent and depraved (1970) [pdf]
Author : luu
Score : 202 points
Date : 2023-06-13 08:45 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (brianb.freeshell.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (brianb.freeshell.org)
| jmclnx wrote:
| >Most of them manage to avoid vomitting on their own clothes, but
| they never miss their shoes."
|
| Classic, a very good read. I would never have thought the
| Kentucky Derby was such a crazy time. I thought it was people
| sipping Mint Julups watching the race. Seems the race is just a
| minor distraction to the real action.
| cguess wrote:
| Overall the description of the atmosphere holds up to this day
| too.
| taude wrote:
| Also, there's the whole "infield" party, that's different than
| the people in the stands.... and I had to just look it up, but
| 80K people can get in. [1]
|
| [1] https://www.kentuckyderby.com/blog/style/the-kentucky-
| derby-...
| LouisvilleGeek wrote:
| Thompson would have been found in the infield. The rest is
| schmooze and corporate these days.
| op00to wrote:
| The Preakness is also a total shit show. More so than the
| Kentucky Derby.
| acomjean wrote:
| I went to the Preakness once while passing through Baltimore
| many years ago. That race also has the center of the track
| full of people. There was talk you could just haul your own
| cooler to the infield. (And the famous video of people
| running across port-a-pottys). I was general admission on the
| grandstand side. Its an fun mix of people.
|
| Its sometimes kind of remarkable with a general admission
| ticket it can be hard to find a vantage point to watch the
| race.
| ojbyrne wrote:
| I also found the Preakness kind of crazy. Perhaps the most
| crazy part of it was that it's in a really sketch part of
| Baltimore (Pimlico), and there's a whole cordon of police
| from the light rail station to the track making sure that
| nobody drunkenly gets lost or worse on the way to and from.
| tbihl wrote:
| That was certainly true of the infield party 10 years ago,
| the last time I was there. The corporate tents in the infield
| were a boozy time, but not out of control that I ever saw. I
| can't speak to the stands outside the track. The musical acts
| they got were what you would expect, but it's the only time I
| ever got to watch a concert from backstage.
| op00to wrote:
| I am not fancy enough for the corporate tents. :D
| caboteria wrote:
| The more WASP-y an event is, the more likely it's an excuse to
| get smashed. For example: Princeton reunions, the Head of the
| Charles Regatta, country club member/guest tournaments, any
| polo match ever.
| [deleted]
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| yacht clubs....
| natebc wrote:
| or really just a round of golf.
| gmiller123456 wrote:
| >I thought it was people sipping Mint Julups watching the race.
| Seems the race is just a minor distraction to the real action.
|
| It's an 8 hour day with about 10 minutes of racing. Lots of
| different experiences to be had. The big party is in the
| infield. The people in the stands might sit and drink mint
| julips, but theres still lots going on, the biggest is usually
| watching the horses get ready at the paddock.
|
| It used to be getting in the gate would get you access to the
| entire grounds, except the private suites. So you could pay for
| the infield and go sit in seats in the stands no one was using,
| and people with paid seats could still join the fun in the
| infield (there's tunnels under the track). This was the first
| year they blocked access between the stands and the infield
| (access was limited to those with seats in a corporate tent). I
| didn't go this year, but I imagine it changed the atmosphere
| quite a bit. It's also getting more expensive, just for the
| infield, drawing a different crowd. Things really changed after
| 9/11 when Chirchill Downs experimented with how much they could
| limit people bringing in. That didn't really have an effect on
| what alcohol got past security, but made it a lot harder to
| bring in snacks, etc. So you had to buy their food, making it
| for a more expensive day and discuraging some people from
| coming. And they've been slowly making it more and more
| expensive every year. Today, you can't even bring a good camera
| in without a special permit. It's really changed the
| environment from a cheap, fun day to someplace you go to spend
| a lot of money.
| vgeek wrote:
| CDI is a slots company who happens to own some race tracks
| anymore. In around 2018 once they started with the
| "historical racing terminals" (slots), they shifted from
| caring about racing to the fat margins of slots-- an $8k slot
| machine with 10yr lifespan is more favorable to ongoing
| purses and horse industry expenses. Handle has been
| decreasing everywhere for years, so of course they will focus
| on gaming, instead.
|
| They list "Live and historical wagering" as a line item--
| comingling revenue to hide that parimutuel wagering continues
| to tank/shift towards their preferred/higher margin gaming
| business. Appendix of their 10-K shows $66MM revenue for all
| live/simulcast racing in 2022, vs $375MM for historical
| racing and $755MM for gaming.
|
| If they don't get slot approval from the state legislatures,
| they just sell the property to be redeveloped, like
| Hollywood/Arlington/Calder.
| cjrp wrote:
| I mean mint juleps are basically just bourbon, sugar and a
| little water; I can imagine it doesn't take many of those to
| get hammered.
| jackfoxy wrote:
| A real mint julep, which I had the pleasure of drinking in
| New Orleans, is bruised fresh peppermint on the bottom,
| crushed ice, filled up with premium bourbon, and a dash of
| peach liqueur. No water and no sugar.
|
| It's a great drink.
| kevinmchugh wrote:
| Take a look at Jerry Thomas's How to Mix Drinks - available
| for free on Google Books or the Internet Archive. Mint
| Julep is on page 44.
| _fullpint wrote:
| What a weird thing to say. This is about the Kentucky
| Derby, the mint julep is synonymous with the derby. And
| while that is possibly how they're done in New Orleans,
| it's absolutely not how it is done in Louisville.
| jdminhbg wrote:
| > crushed ice
|
| ...
|
| > No water
|
| The crushed ice melts and dilutes the drink, as is the case
| in nearly all cocktails.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Another Southerner has a different view:
|
| https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/mint-
| julep-r...
| mattkrause wrote:
| No discussion of juleps is complete without Buckner's
| classic letter describing the...rite of making one:
|
| http://www.thebucknerhome.com/julep/recipe.html
|
| (No peaches here either)
| at_a_remove wrote:
| I have, after reading various historical recipes for the
| mint julep, this fine letter, reviewing the poem recited
| by higher-end bartenders upon the making of a drink, and
| so on, settled on my own recipe. I can drink but rarely,
| so when I do, I try to make an occasion out of it.
|
| The "ice" as fine as snow is particularly difficult.
| You'll want a triple-stitched bag, one that can take
| heavy pounding. You will also want dry ice. First,
| because it makes the water ice more brittle, and the
| second because it keeps your snow crisp, rather than
| dissolving into a slush. I suspect that there is a
| machine better suited to the task but I've not gone that
| far.
|
| The mint is more subtle than suspected. Many "muddle" the
| mint, which is to say crush it with a muddler. This does
| release the mint oils, but it also releases the more
| vegetable tastes, particularly the chlorophyll, which
| alters the flavor profile. No, what is better is to
| _slap_ the mint across the palm of your hand. This,
| apparently opens the pores of the mint leaves and allows
| the oils out while keeping the rest in. I also "round"
| the mint flavor by adding both spearmint and wintergreen.
|
| My other changes are perhaps a little archaic, personal,
| even radical, but the first two ought ought to improve
| any julep.
| seneca wrote:
| While that sounds like a nice summer drink, it's not a mint
| julep.
|
| Liqueurs can also be fairly approximated as "sugar and a
| little water" with flavoring. So, not all that different.
|
| From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mint_julep - Mint julep
| is a mixed alcoholic drink, or cocktail, consisting
| primarily of bourbon, sugar, water, crushed or shaved ice,
| and fresh mint.
| ojbyrne wrote:
| No mint?
| reureu wrote:
| When I went to the Kentucky Derby, I was surprised by how few
| people were drinking Mint Juleps and how many were drinking
| cases of Bud Light. It was a particularly hot year, so not
| sure if this is normal, but I saw at least a dozen people
| carted off by the EMS golf carts hours before the Kentucky
| Derby was run.
|
| I've been to a bunch of events, including the Indy 500, Times
| Square for NYE, and Mardi Gras in New Orleans, and _by far_
| people were more sloppy drunk at the Kentucky Derby.
| ascagnel_ wrote:
| Times Square has banned alcohol on NYE for at least the
| last decade, and the state of Indiana blocks all Sunday
| alcohol sales, so I expect those two events to be a little
| more toned down.
| jihadjihad wrote:
| You can buy alcohol on Sunday in Indiana as long as it's
| 12pm or later [0]. And you can bring your own alcohol to
| the Indy 500 as long as it's not in glass [1].
|
| 0:
| https://www.thehayeslawoffice.com/blog/2020/02/indianas-
| sund...
|
| 1: https://www.indianapolismotorspeedway.com/events/indy5
| 00/pla...
| motohagiography wrote:
| If someone tried to do poiltical journalism like Hunter S.
| Thompson today, I'd bet they would probably get hauled in front
| of congress for a struggle session, a journalistic cashiering
| from party personalities, and some terrible random luck from the
| bureaucracy just to make an example.
|
| I wonder what changed about the world where the tradition of
| writers like Thompson, Hitchens, Vidal, Hemmingway, Menken,
| Bierce, and others with humour and moral courage just aren't a
| part of mainstream discourse.
| tokai wrote:
| You should read up on the journal this was published in. Seems
| like there wasn't much temperament for this kind of political
| journalism back then either.
| bschne wrote:
| I recently came across Michael Hastings, whom I hadn't heard of
| before (living in Europe), but alas he passed away quite early.
| This sort of journalism seems to be a rare thing, but also not
| dead by a long shot.
|
| See e.g. this on Gen. McChrystal and Afghanistan --
| https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/the-runa...
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| You read this article, and you see _moral courage_? I sure don
| 't.
| Yahivin wrote:
| Brandon Buckingham is a modern day Hunter S. Thompson. There
| are probably hundreds of other YouTubers doing similar things
| but we haven't heard about them yet because they are at the
| beginning of their career and Hunter is past the end.
| smcl wrote:
| In front of _congress_? Why?
| dfxm12 wrote:
| Conservative corporate media moguls like Rupert Murdoch have
| since mostly consolidated news outlets.
| paddw wrote:
| If someone tried to do political journalism like Hunter S.
| Thompson today, they would struggle to find the same sort of
| characters, because the Internet has collectively made us much
| more cautious about and accountable for how we interact with
| others.
|
| Present literary journalistic techniques critique through
| insinuation and juxtaposition. HST just had to go places and
| let people talk.
| standardUser wrote:
| Never has there been a more vast and diverse set of weirdos
| in America and they have never been easier to find. Talk to
| me about "cautious" and "accountable" after you've been to a
| Furry convention, a gathering of the Juggalos, a Burner
| event, a Phish show and a couple sex parties.
| itairal wrote:
| [dead]
| stinkytaco wrote:
| Easier to find, but probably harder to talk to. I think
| it's not a coincidence that several of the subcultures you
| list above involve _dressing in costumes_. I 'm sure part
| of that is immersing oneself in the culture, but there's
| also an element of anonymity that people value. At least
| some of this is a result of Thompson's influence on the
| culture.
| standardUser wrote:
| These people will talk your ear off. One of the hallmarks
| of modern counterculture is inclusion, which is in stark
| contrast to the HST era where there was a much greater
| risk to being part of many countercultures, and so much
| more fear of outsiders.
|
| As far an anonymity, I think people pick a particular
| blend that works for them and their career and family.
| But most people I know are pretty forward about their
| stranger/kinkier/less legal interests, at least on an
| interpersonal level.
| bcbrown wrote:
| HST once gave his press badge on the Muskie campaign train in
| Florida to a random miscreant he met while out drinking[0],
| who then the next day went on to terrorize everyone on the
| train, ordering things at the press bar like a "triple Gin
| Buck without the Buck", manhandling reporters and the
| campaign cheerleader girls. At a whistle-stop speech, he
| stood in the front, heckled Muskie, grabbing his leg and
| yelling for more gin. He did a lot more than just "go to
| places and let people talk.". I think a lot of his genius for
| reporting came from how he involved himself in the lives of
| those he wrote about, combined with a rare knack for words
| and dedication to the craft of writing.
|
| [0] Described by HST as "I listened for a moment and
| recognized the Neal Cassady speed-booze-acid rap - a wild
| combination of menace, madness, genius, and fragmented
| coherence that wreaks havoc on the mind of any listener... so
| I knew we had no choice but to take this man along with us...
| he had that rare weird electricity about him - that extremely
| wild & heavy _presence_ that you only see in a person who has
| abandoned all hope of ever behaving 'normally'."
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > the Internet has collectively made us much more cautious
| about and accountable for how we interact with others.
|
| That's a pretty shocking claim. I'd say it's quite the
| opposite.
| StrangeATractor wrote:
| It's a mixed bag. Everything you do IRL gets photographed
| and uploaded by your friends without your consent for
| future potential employers to scour through, Twitter
| becoming the whole world's HR department, your name,
| address and employer readily available with a Google
| search, etc.
|
| I basically don't post too many opinions unless I'm on an
| alt account, and I'm considering tor for that going
| forward.
| standardUser wrote:
| There's a give and take here. As more people are bold
| about how they express themselves, companies inevitably
| become more accepting of different types of expression.
| I've seen a _massive_ shift from the 80 's to today in
| what's acceptable for different types of jobs. There is
| always some risk for being on the edge of that trend, and
| we should be grateful to those who take those risks for
| making it easier for the rest of us.
| superb-owl wrote:
| I couldn't disagree more!
|
| Vice, for one, has basically commodified HST-style journalism.
| They have a whole show where a guy just tries different drugs
| [1]
|
| And you can find all sorts of heterodox political and cultural
| takes in both mainstream news and the blogosphere, as well as
| the huge continuum of media between them.
|
| The problem isn't that these writers don't exist anymore (or
| that they're being somehow silenced by congress). The problem
| is there's no mainstream culture anymore, and therefore there's
| no place for counterculture to consolidate. Instead we have a
| bunch of people shouting different things into voids of various
| sizes.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton%27s_Pharmacopeia
| derefr wrote:
| You described gonzo journalism, and political journalism, but
| not _gonzo political journalism_ -- which is what the GP
| poster is saying doesn't exist any more.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| The people he named were real writers. The ones you named
| would be making lattes if not for Vice etc.
| JasserInicide wrote:
| Vice had some interesting endeavors a decade ago. Now they're
| just another partisan outrage rag
| boredumb wrote:
| Vice doing drugs and writing blogs for young adults is not
| akin to gonzo journalism.
| snapcaster wrote:
| How is it different? I am a huge Hunter S. Thompson fan but
| I don't think anything he did was any more important than
| "writing for young people and doing drugs"
| motohagiography wrote:
| Vice was a business that commercialized writing about
| drugs and providing a sympathetic lap for the resentful
| and demoralized. They had one good science writer that
| the whole scheme hinged on. HST's personal style changed
| journalism. He brought the techniques of insight from
| literary fiction to reportage, along with Thomas Wolfe,
| and the generation that followed.
| skyyler wrote:
| Journalism was supposed to be objective, gonzo journalism
| is inherently not. Making the author a character in the
| story is the opposite of what a good journalist is to
| do...
|
| Kids taking journalism classes might get to hear about
| Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72 (through The
| Boys on the Bus) and I think there's a little bit more to
| that than just writing for young people and doing drugs.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| There's good writing and there's bad writing. Without
| getting into specific articles, if "Gonzo Journalism" or
| "New Journalism" is what it takes to inform some people,
| that's good journalism. It's like the Daily Show &
| Colbert Report. An old (2004) study [0] showed that Daily
| Show & Colbert Report viewers were the more knowledgeable
| about national and international affairs compared to
| people who consumed Google news, CNN or Fox News.
|
| 0 - https://archive.thinkprogress.org/survey-daily-show-
| colbert-...
| splitstud wrote:
| [dead]
| georgeecollins wrote:
| I think you are too cynical about Vice and too kind to HST.
| morkalork wrote:
| What would you call this? I'd say it meets the bar for
| gonzo:
|
| https://www.vice.com/en/article/43jp9d/we-found-evidence-
| of-...
| DougEiffel wrote:
| Jon Ronson has written several incredible books that all
| qualify as Gonzo Journalism. The only one I didn't like
| very much was the one about the adult film industry.
|
| The Psychopath Test So You've Been Publicly Shamed Them:
| Adventures with Extremists
|
| All great books and even better audiobooks that you'll like
| I think.
| easytiger wrote:
| HST berating the avarice, narcissism & decadence of others -
| indeed a classic vibes moment in time.
| xsmasher wrote:
| As a friend told me when I missed the point of a story, "that's
| not the subtext, that's in the actual text."
| elijaht wrote:
| One of the articles I read every time I come across it :)
| dang wrote:
| Related:
|
| _The Kentucky Derby Is Decadent and Depraved (1970)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7691019 - May 2014 (60
| comments)
| [deleted]
| fr0sty wrote:
| On the subject of the Derby, this was originally published as
| "The Kentucky Derby: An Oral History":
| https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/05/20/the-kentucky-d...
|
| Such "Oral History" articles were quite popular for a time* and
| the fist time I encountered this article it still had its
| original title. I'm sad that it was not retained since the url
| now gives away the punchline.
|
| * https://www.vulture.com/article/an-oral-history-of-disney-th...
| weisser wrote:
| My favorite part of this is the introduction of the now-iconic
| artist Ralph Steadman.
|
| > Another problem was his habit of sketching people he met in the
| various social situations I dragged him into--then giving them
| the sketches. The results were always unfortunate. I warned him
| several times about letting the subjects see his foul renderings,
| but for some perverse reason he kept doing it. Consequently, he
| was regarded with fear and loathing by nearly everyone who'd seen
| or even heard about his work. He couldn't understand it. "It's
| sort of a joke," he kept saying. "Why, in England it's quite
| normal. People don't take offense. They understand that I'm just
| putting them on a bit."
|
| "Fuck England," I said. "This is Middle America. These people
| regard what you're doing to them as a brutal, bilious insult.
| Look what happened last night. I thought my brother was going to
| tear your head off."
|
| Steadman shook his head sadly. "But I liked him. He struck me as
| a very decent, straightforward sort."
|
| "Look, Ralph," I said. "Let's not kid ourselves. That was a very
| horrible drawing you gave him. It was the face of a monster. It
| got on his nerves very badly." I shrugged. "Why in hell do you
| think we left the restaurant so fast?"
|
| "I thought it was because of the Mace," he said.
|
| "What Mace?"
|
| He grinned. "When you shot it at the headwaiter, don't you
| remember?" "Hell, that was nothing," I said. "I missed him...and
| we were leaving, anyway."
|
| "But it got all over us," he said. "The room was full of that
| damn gas. Your brother was sneezing was and his wife was crying.
| My eyes hurt for two hours. I couldn't see to draw when we got
| back to the motel."
|
| "That's right," I said. "The stuff got on her leg, didn't it?"
|
| "She was angry," he said.
|
| ---
|
| Funny to consider that Steadman's visual aesthetic is even more
| identifiable than Hunter S. Thompson. The influence is
| everywhere!
| [deleted]
| ngai_aku wrote:
| Always a fun read. I wind up revisiting it every year when the
| derby comes around (last month). The timing felt random here
| until I came across the other HN thread discussing Ralph Steadman
| and beer https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36307276
|
| Funny to see how things on the front page all fit together.
| WhyCause wrote:
| > I wind up revisiting it every year when the derby comes
| around
|
| As do I. It's tradition at this point.
| B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
| Oddly, I've never come across any Ralph Steadman illustrations
| other than HST pieces.
|
| He even seems to exist independently, though.
| briankelly wrote:
| He's done labels for Flying Dog beer [1], the cover of Anthony
| Bourdain's Appetites [2], and the album cover for Huncho Jack
| [3]. These are just the ones I've encountered in the wild -
| it's quick to recognize once you're familiar.
|
| [1] https://www.flyingdog.com/
|
| [2] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/28925236
|
| [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huncho_Jack,_Jack_Huncho
| B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
| Thanks, the beer ones even borrow the "gonzo" HST trademark
| ...
| WorldMaker wrote:
| I once met a band leader that was wild enough to just ask Ralph
| Steadman to design an album cover and got great illustrations
| back because apparently Ralph liked the music.
| at_a_remove wrote:
| Weird, I run into Steadman's artwork everywhere. _Closed on
| Account of Rabies_ , which consists of famous people reading
| Poe stories (Diamanda Galas doing "The Black Cat") had his work
| on the cover.
| clsec wrote:
| I don't know your age, but as a person born in the 60's his
| artwork has been a common sight throughout my life.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Can you imagine submitting this to a sports magazine today?
| dfxm12 wrote:
| FYI, this was published to Scanlan's Monthly, which is very
| much not a sports magazine.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanlan%27s_Monthly
| rinze wrote:
| If you have a chance, read the selection of HST letters that are
| published. I've read the first two volumes and can't wait to get
| my hands on the third one https://www.thriftbooks.com/series/the-
| fear-and-loathing-let...
|
| He was a very prolific letter writer and kept carbon copies of
| almost everything he sent. This is the one he sent to Anthony
| Burgess when he was editor of Rolling Stone:
| https://www.openculture.com/2016/05/hunter-s-thompson-writes...
| ngai_aku wrote:
| Good to hear this! I've had volume 1 sitting by my bed for a
| few months now but still haven't cracked it open. I'm not
| really sure why... length, maybe? This might be what I need to
| start
| davewashere wrote:
| I wouldn't count on that third book ever happening. It was
| first announced in 2005, the same year as his death, and I
| believe Amazon has had a page for it (with cover art) since at
| least 2006.
| rinze wrote:
| Oh, damn, I really thought it was published :-(
| [deleted]
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Far more likely that you just have false memories. They are
| very common and can result in a feeling of complete confidence
| that an event occurred when it never has.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory
| eppp wrote:
| The man was certainly an artist with words.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| [flagged]
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Given what he had to say about Nixon, I can hardly imagine
| what his reaction would have been to Trump. I think you may
| be right about the rifles.
| zabzonk wrote:
| yes, he was not a nixon fan, but he did admit that,
| following a conversation with him, nixon did know something
| about football.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| "Not a fan" is underselling it, as is obvious in his
| obituary for Nixon.
| https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1994/07/he-
| was-...
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| The absolute cream of the American sporting press!
| taude wrote:
| Old classic!
| ggm wrote:
| A distant colleague in work consciously modeled himself on HST,
| driven I suspect by visual similarities in his build and
| temperament. It wasn't always very nice. Cynicism can turn nasty
| very quickly, he had a shallow ego and took as much offense as he
| caused when contradicted over matters of opinion.
|
| I remember asking him to confirm 4-5 lines in the 8th edition
| kernel sources from his licensed copy and I had to pay him in the
| form of a bottle of bourbon.
|
| He had a sad end.
|
| My point is that: you can't bottle it, imitation is not the
| sincerest form of flattery it's ugly and stupid. That said, E.
| Jean Carroll's write up suggests HST was (at the end) a very sad,
| lonely man too.
|
| Fear and Loathing is a great book.
| ruraljuror wrote:
| The audiobook for this, read by Tim Robbins with music by Bill
| Frisell, is spectacular.
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