[HN Gopher] Why do cats knead?
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Why do cats knead?
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 178 points
Date : 2023-06-08 20:08 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.livescience.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.livescience.com)
| momirlan wrote:
| my puppy does it too
| pawelduda wrote:
| When our cat lays down on her side and is in the mood for belly
| rub, she does this kneading motion in the air while purring
| loudly and rubbing her head into all nearby objects, so for
| simplicity we just assume she's happy :)
|
| But on the other hand, sometimes a cat is going somewhere and
| unintentionally steps onto a blanket or something soft, then just
| starts kneading like it walked into a quicksand and it's face is
| like "goddamn here we go again"
| mhb wrote:
| This would seem less speculative if they also discussed why dogs
| do the same thing. And whether any other animals also do it.
| colecut wrote:
| dogs do the same thing?
| caboteria wrote:
| My rescue pup does. He lost his mother when he was a few
| weeks old and was bottle-fed from that point on. Now he
| suckles on a blanket while kneading it as he falls asleep.
| Just by coincidence there's a thunderstorm outside right now
| and he's doing it so it probably has a calming effect.
| [deleted]
| wkat4242 wrote:
| > So why do cats knead? Although the reason is uncertain, the
| most likely explanation is that it is a leftover behavior from
| kittenhood, Susan Hazel, an associate professor of animal
| behavior, welfare and ethics at the University of Adelaide in
| Australia, told Live Science. During nursing, a kitten
| rhythmically treads its paws on the mother's body to stimulate
| the flow of milk.
|
| I never thought this was uncertain. It's pretty clear it's simple
| regression to infant behaviour.
|
| Which is not so strange if you consider that more behaviour cats
| exhibit around humans (like meowing!) is also regression.
| munificent wrote:
| My wife fosters kittens. Often, she'll have a litter of kittens
| and the mom cat. The kittens often knead, but the mom often will
| too.
|
| Thanks to evolution, mom cats are hormonally rewarded for taking
| care of their kittens. When the kittens are nursing on mom, she
| often looks totally blissed out like a raver in an ecstasy
| puddle, eyes half-lidded, staring off into space, paws kneading
| away at nothing.
|
| I assume that kittens evolved to knead because it stimulates
| milking and then cats just make that association with the act and
| feeling good, so they retain it later in life.
| tiffanyg wrote:
| _... are nursing on mom, she often looks totally blissed out
| like a raver in an ecstasy puddle ..._
|
| I KNEW IT! Females are nothing but addicts, looking to get
| their next fix of baby giggles, cuddles, kneading, ... and
| babies are nothing but the other part in this codependence
| travesty!
|
| Oh wait...
|
| ...that's literally everyone (/ everything).
|
| _Paging Dr. Maslow..._
| imbnwa wrote:
| Or all mammals
| dokem wrote:
| Only tangentially related: when I was a kid we let a couple
| stray female dogs sleep in our garage during the winter. One of
| them was pregnant and ended up delivering like 11 puppies in
| our garage. Both the mother and the other stray dog began
| lactating and both dogs would breast-feed the puppies.
|
| We gave away all the puppies around the neighborhood. We took
| one, so did our aunt and a family friend. It was an interesting
| experience to get to see how different dogs from the same
| litter and different environments grew up. When they would get
| together you could tell they remembered/knew each other. I
| still miss that dog - literally experienced his entire life :(
| daneel_w wrote:
| I thought it was fully understood that cats begin doing it as
| kittens in order to stimulate lactation from the mother, and for
| some cats the habit remains and manifests for their keeper when
| they feel safe and at ease because some cats form
| social/emotional relationships with their keepers (surrogates)
| similar to that of a kitten and its mother.
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| I've also understood that the behavior is most pronounced in
| cats that were removed from their litter and mother too soon.
| eptcyka wrote:
| When I was young, my family rescued two balls of fur from a
| couple of crows that were playing with their supper, and both
| of them were kneading our elbows when picked up all
| throughout their lives. It seemed obvious why they did that
| as we were feeding them from a bottle until they were old
| enough to eat solid food.
| atchoo wrote:
| Every cat I have formed a close bond with likes to do it so I
| don't believe that much repeated factoid.
| DrNosferatu wrote:
| I have cats, and the kneading really seems to me that they're
| only making sure the place they're about to lie on is
| comfortable.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| When cats knead, they also purr a lot and their nose gets
| extremely wet and cold (it even starts dripping), so it's clear
| it's some special physiological exercise rather than just
| testing the surface out with their paws.
| dt3ft wrote:
| #1 makes a lot of sense, but I guess we'll never know :) It looks
| cute and I could watch it for hours!
| pcurve wrote:
| Article gives two reasons: " 1. in the presence of someone with
| whom they feel safe ... because they associate the behavior of
| treading their paws with the comfort they felt when they were
| nursing
|
| 2. It's possible kneading can be used to deposit scent... to mark
| territory."
|
| Some dogs like to suckle on your arm (or small squishy) well into
| their adulthood, so I suppose #1 makes sense.
| genericacct wrote:
| I've known a female cat that would knead on your belly and
| nurse from your finger while doing so. #1 is definitely it.
| quitit wrote:
| Plus #1 has a human analogue: Human's are known to thumb suck
| for comfort. Some continuing the behaviour into adulthood -
| perhaps even 1 in 10, but I don't really believe that.(1)
|
| (1) https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/an-adults-habit-that-really-
| su...
| imbnwa wrote:
| I had a cousin who continued to suck her thumb when anxious
| into pre-puberty
| wkat4242 wrote:
| For #2 this is not the reason. They don't deposit much scent
| through the paws, but mainly through the cheeks. This is why
| cats headbutt you.
| SllX wrote:
| The explanation I always heard was that they were removed from
| their mother too soon, and I stopped buying that explanation
| several years ago.
|
| I don't know about every cat I've ever had, but my youngest
| currently? I think there's two reasons she does it: 1. To
| announce her presence on top of me and make it known she is
| pleased her bed is in bed and 2. To make the spot more
| comfortable, like how we fluff our pillows or smooth out our
| bedspreads or whatever. She's making the spot hers.
|
| I mean it is an action that can also deposit their scent, but
| uh, in my experience my cats have never respected that marker
| if they don't want to.
| fathyb wrote:
| I have 3 cats still living with their mother and they all do
| it. She had a strong maternal instinct, but lost it once they
| grew up, and now she hates all of them, which is apparently
| the expected behaviour.
| freedomben wrote:
| Our cat was older and once the kittens got into a phase of
| "play hard, play always" I think it annoyed her to the
| point of madness :-)
| bastardoperator wrote:
| I have an elderly cat that is fine with dogs, but can't
| stand the other 2 much younger and stronger cats.
| philipkglass wrote:
| _The explanation I always heard was that they were removed
| from their mother too soon, and I stopped buying that
| explanation several years ago._
|
| Interesting. I've never heard that explanation. It doesn't
| line up with my experience either. In 2007 I took in a stray
| cat I found wandering in a parking lot. She was pregnant and
| gave birth to 5 kittens. She died a few years ago but I kept
| her with her offspring for her whole life. Her descendants
| knead as much as she did.
| mcraiha wrote:
| I have heard the same explanation. And first time I heard
| it was pre-internet era in non English speaking country, so
| it must be somewhat common believe.
| nly wrote:
| I think your making the spot comfortable explanation is very
| compelling.
| Espressosaurus wrote:
| Cats suckling on things (usually wool shirts or blankets)
| into adulthood is a sign they were removed from their mother
| too soon, but I've never heard that about kneading. I just
| assumed it was normal for a cat that's happy, safe, and
| comfortable.
| rhaway84773 wrote:
| > she is pleased her bed is in bed
|
| ISWYDT
| solardev wrote:
| What is a "small squishy"? Do I even want to know...?
| [deleted]
| some_random wrote:
| Stuffed animal toy
| solardev wrote:
| Oh... lol. Thought the sentence was referring to a body
| part.
| fsckboy wrote:
| as humans are bilaterally symmetric to some tolerance,
| and there is a body part pair that is universally
| somewhat mismatched, but we repeatedly reassure and are
| reassured it's totally normal, I felt certain small
| squishy...
| civilitty wrote:
| This cat thread got weirdly sexual especially with all
| the biscuit making
| Dnguyen wrote:
| Thanks for the summary! It helped me scan through HN faster and
| get back to work ;) We all should try to do this more often.
| spike021 wrote:
| My dog loves licking me. Arms, hands/finger (especially when
| I've just washed them and they aren't dry yet), scalp.
|
| He also will scratch the fake tile floor in certain corner
| spaces like next to my front door. I think I read a while back
| that the scratching helps release their scent so it's like
| they're reclaiming their territory too. (this is after he's
| gone out and done his business, not him telling me he needs to
| go out)
| atchoo wrote:
| I notice that my cat _really_ enjoys doing it. She gets into a
| euphoric /hypnotic state purring more loudly than she does when
| stroked. Just totally lost in bliss.
|
| It may have a real function in other situations (milk
| production) but I believe the proximal cause for her nightly
| kneading is simply how good it feels which puts her straight to
| sleep afterwards. I expect it releases a lot of oxytocin/opoid
| type neurotransmitters. It makes me feel a little.... used. Not
| to mention the pain!
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Yeah, sometimes I kind of think my cats are twerking. (And I
| apologize to HN readers for using that word).
| MrOwnPut wrote:
| We call that sprinkling. If it's a male cat that's not
| fixed, that's when they actually spray.
|
| The biscuits/kneading usually come first, then the
| sprinkling starts when the back legs start coming up and
| the tail starts vibrating.
|
| If it's something he likes, like the fridge, no biscuits
| get made, it's straight to sprinkling for a few seconds to
| just make sure it's still his.
|
| Oh and the wiping of gums on literally everything, most
| importantly every cardboard box in the house.
|
| It's definitely an arousal thing mixed in with territory
| marking.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| They could also be referring to that wiggling they do
| before they pounce. Some cats do it quite fast. This is
| the first I thought of when I read that comment.
| markisus wrote:
| [dead]
| mauvehaus wrote:
| A family member has a cat like yours and introduced me to the
| regrettable phrase "sexual biscuit-making". As if it wasn't
| weird enough already.
| yetanotherloser wrote:
| I. love. this.
|
| I will never look at my cat the same way again.
| roarcher wrote:
| Just wait until you own a cat that goes into heat and
| sexually harasses you for two weeks straight. I can never
| un-know what a degenerate little pervert my cat is.
| speak_plainly wrote:
| I always imagined it was a reflex to check for things like snakes
| or other pests before lying down which also doubled as a social
| cue (as outlined in the article). You see cats kneading blankets
| seemingly checking for something until they feel secure enough to
| sleep.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Does it really take 15mins at a time to feel secure, or is my
| cat just reeeaallly insecure about his blanket?
| 1letterunixname wrote:
| I'm wondering if it's a form of exercise (like humans squeezing a
| stress ball) and/or to clean their claws.
| AnonCoward42 wrote:
| > Why do cats knead?
|
| > So why do cats knead? Although the reason is uncertain, the
| most likely explanation is that it is a leftover behavior from
| kittenhood, Susan Hazel, an associate professor of animal
| behavior, welfare and ethics at the University of Adelaide in
| Australia, told Live Science. During nursing, a kitten
| rhythmically treads its paws on the mother's body to stimulate
| the flow of milk.
|
| The answer is speculation. Yeah, that would be my guess too, but
| do we really need "science" for that? (and by science I mean some
| authority figure that apparently has a title)
|
| This looks much more like what TV sells us as "the science".
| trebligdivad wrote:
| For it to be science we need a way to do an experiment or to
| make a comparison. Perhaps one could be; If it's believed to be
| related to nursing, then perhaps we need to know if kittens
| abandoned early on and hand fed also knead?
| stolen_biscuit wrote:
| It's not science, it's speculation from someone with experience
| in the field. I don't think this was sold as a scientific
| conclusion
| Retric wrote:
| _We don't know in adults, kittens stimulate milk production
| from it_ is the answer from science, that's not speculation.
|
| Adults continuing the behavior from kitten hood is speculation
| not a scientific consensus.
| Aleklart wrote:
| I hope nobody decide to approve grant for scientific research
| on that, because it will involve cutting limbs, opening skulls
| and other types of vivisections that scientists love so much.
| Result also be very far from certainty with some numbers and
| experiments conditions. But of course it will produce several
| phds and may be even whole professor.
| jeremy_wiebe wrote:
| So basically, we don't know?
| mkaic wrote:
| I always assumed it was something akin to humans cracking our
| knuckles. Just a pleasurable stretching sensation for their claws
| or something. I have zero evidence to back this up, but it seems
| to me like if I had retractable claws I'd want to "stretch" them
| regularly.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Same reason why cats try to dig a carpet.
| [deleted]
| throwaway81523 wrote:
| I always thought it was because they were checking out the safety
| of the thing they wanted to curl up and sleep on. They wanted to
| first make sure it wouldn't give out underneath them.
| jsz0 wrote:
| Are we maybe overthinking this? I always thought it was most
| likely just an instinct to make themselves a comfortable bed. The
| same way a human would clear rocks, sticks, or otherwise steer
| clear of uncomfortable things on the ground.
| dmje wrote:
| Drilling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rryNobB_rvw
| dameyawn wrote:
| I'll hold my cat like a baby, and she'll knead in the air. Or
| when getting pet lying on her side. I think it's a happy state
| thing for her.
| yelling_cat wrote:
| I'd always assumed my cat drools when she gets a good knead on
| simply because she's purring so hard, but it makes sense that
| it's related to nursing behavior.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I've never heard it called kneading, locally we call it milk-
| treading. I've always assumed it had something to do, therefore,
| with kitten behavior while nursing from their mother.
| MrOwnPut wrote:
| Never heard that one.
|
| Also common to say they're "making biscuits".
|
| When our cat comes to sleep w/ us we ask him to make some
| biscuits, he usually does.
|
| If you're lucky and the biscuits line up he'll give you a nice
| massage.
| shagie wrote:
| A few years ago, Friskies did a comedercial (it's a word I
| just made up) series narrated by Zefrank of "True Facts" and
| the "Sad Dog Diary" fame called "Dear Kitten". They are quite
| amusing... at least I find them amusing.
|
| The relevant one is Dear Kitten: The Art Of Massage -
| https://youtu.be/ksZ5SyyfHJ0
|
| > Dear kitten I need to give you a little history lesson.
| Hundreds of thousands of years ago we cats were given a
| choice. Either we could learn the art of swimming and become
| a seafaring creature or we could choose the gift of the art
| of massage. I think it's obvious which one we chose. Massage.
| To this day we must exercise our duty to massage everything.
| We alone can exercise this alternating gentle touch with a
| little aftertaste of claws digging in the flesh.
| kulahan wrote:
| Kneading is the common name given to it because it looks almost
| like they're kneading bread. You'd have to know it's related to
| milk to call it milk-treading!
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I get that it's a regional thing. I don't think you need to
| know the underlying explanation just to memorize the term.
| Otherwise nobody would say things like 'mute point', or 'for
| all intensive purposes', or 'could care less', etc. Most
| people usually use the phrases in the right context, but
| clearly don't understand what they are _actually_ saying or
| they wouldn 't say it.
| skyechurch wrote:
| ' _Could_ care less ' is imo the preferred formulation, the
| implication being that while there is no fundamental
| physical law preventing me from caring less, from a
| practical standpoint it seems highly unlikely. It's like
| how I _could_ be a high lottery pick in the 2023 NBA draft
| - I 'm unathletic and old and get humiliated by 7th graders
| in games of 1-on-1 - but technically it only takes one NBA
| GM seeing something special in me and I'm shaking hands
| with the Commissioner.
|
| It's all in the delivery.
| cubefox wrote:
| "During nursing, a kitten rhythmically treads its paws on the
| mother's body to stimulate the flow of milk."
|
| But adult cats use their claws, which kittens presumably don't
| do, otherwise they would hurt the mother. So this explanation
| seems questionable.
| lm28469 wrote:
| Like human babies don't use their teeth while sucking on a tit
| ? Oh wait ...
| [deleted]
| bastardoperator wrote:
| My cats do this and we love it.
| giardini wrote:
| I have a large soft sleeping pillow (about 4-feet long x 2 feet
| wide x 6 inches thick) that is white with grey spots. One of the
| neighboring feral cats occasionally comes to the door and waits
| until I invite him in. If he finds the pillow he lies atop it,
| kneading it and purring like crazy.
| [deleted]
| gumby wrote:
| The infant comfort explanation always made sense to me. I know
| some people continue to suck their thumb into adulthood,
| presumably for the same reasons.
| aslfjiasf wrote:
| Our cat does this on soft blankets, but unlike the other cats
| mentioned in the comments, she doesn't look like she's enjoying
| it. Her ears are back and her brow is furrowed and she looks like
| she is unsure why she's doing it. Alternatively, she looks like
| she's hatching an evil plot to take over the world.
| yetanotherloser wrote:
| Option B. Always option B.
|
| More seriously, I get the impression Being A Cat is rather
| intense and takes up their entire concentration.
| hackeraccount wrote:
| That's what I've always said about kittens; why they run
| around and get excited - they're under a lot of pressure to
| be a cat and what's a higher standard then that? Once they're
| fully a cat they take it easy a lot though because y'know
| cat.
| MalcolmDwyer wrote:
| Our dog (several years old at this point) sometimes puts her
| mouth around the edge of her bed and kneads it with her paw.
| Clearly a nursing behavior. We got her as a rescue so with her
| unknown history, it may be leftover behavior from an early
| separation from her mother.
| stewbrew wrote:
| They knead before they sit down. If you lived in grass land with
| the gras being higher than you, you'd probably knew why.
| pugworthy wrote:
| Good sound track for reading the article and comments ->
| https://purrli.com/
| FfejL wrote:
| The knead because those biscuits aren't going to make themselves!
| hinkley wrote:
| Someone had to say it.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| It's interesting that the motion is called that, because any
| biscuits I've ever made get tough and not flaky if you knead
| them too much. And too much is pretty much anything more than
| the bare minimum required to get them to hold together.
|
| Biscuits (in the US sense) are more like a chemically leavened
| pie crust than a yeast leavened bread.
|
| If it's not obvious, I'm not a serious baker.
| strkitten wrote:
| I like the term "making biscuits" better than "kneading" or
| "kneading biscuits". Butter biscuits (and scones) usually
| require handwork to integrate the butter into the dry
| ingredients. In my experience, this handwork pretty closely
| resembles what the cats are doing. There's a lot of squeezing
| going on to break up the cold butter and mix it in.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| I think of it more as a pinching motion to divide the big
| clumps of fat into smaller ones while coating them in
| flour. I'm still not convinced that cats know how to make
| biscuits :-)
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| It was only a few years ago that I discovered that "biscuits"
| in the US sense are scones.
|
| So that made "biscuits and gravy" sound a lot more appealing.
| buildsjets wrote:
| Any scone I've ever eaten (around the world) was sweetened
| to some degree. American southern style biscuits are
| unsweetened and have a higher fat content than a scone.
| It's really hard to find decent ones outside of their
| natural range, even throughout a lot of the USA. I would
| never order them in say, Seattle.
|
| https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/11/better-
| bi...
|
| Next topic, cheesy shrimp and grits? Or is is higher class
| to call it Polenta Svelta con Gamberetti?
|
| https://www.antonio-
| carluccio.com/polenta_svelta_con_gambere...
| dendrite9 wrote:
| As a counterpoint there's this article about the
| technique, not the flour, being the critical ingredient.
| I remember both because I dated someone from the south
| who missed the biscuits and I was trying to make better
| ones. The link you have made me think I needed to work on
| the flour. Then this made me think improving the
| technique was more important, but by that point I had
| gotten better at it. Now I'd have to restart the practice
| to make something I'm proud of. Most of the biscuits I
| make now get frozen and then shared for breakfast while
| camping or even backpacking.
|
| None of that is to say I'm an expert, seeing that article
| just reminded me of a lot of biscuit making.
|
| https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/01/19/686579106
| /is...
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| Sweet scones? I mean yeah, I guess you could, but why?
| amacneil wrote:
| Biscuits in the American sense are scones in the
| Commonwealth sense.
|
| Scones in the US sense are sweet. Scones in the rest of the
| world are savory, more like American biscuits.
|
| Biscuits in the Commonwealth sense are American cookies,
| although I feel like American cookies are usually the thick
| kind with chocolate chips, whereas Commonwealth biscuits
| are often the plain thin ones that you might dunk in a cup
| of tea.
|
| Speaking of tea - dinner?
| dendrite9 wrote:
| There was a old type of biscuit in Maryland that was not
| leavened with chemicals but aerated by beating. Kneading
| would make them too tough of course. I don't understand the
| technique exactly and someday I'd like to try making a batch,
| although it would be better to find a place I can try a real
| one first if that still exists.
|
| https://atasteofhistorywithjoycewhite.blogspot.com/2015/03/m.
| ..
|
| https://libapps.salisbury.edu/nabb-
| online/exhibits/show/baki...
| searealist wrote:
| Is this the first wave of reddit exodus?
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