[HN Gopher] Grass Makes Better Ethanol Than Corn Does (2008)
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Grass Makes Better Ethanol Than Corn Does (2008)
Author : dmbche
Score : 28 points
Date : 2023-06-07 21:31 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.scientificamerican.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.scientificamerican.com)
| bumby wrote:
| Isn't part of the idea that corn makes more sense to subsidize
| because it multi-use? I.e., it can be food and fuel?
|
| > _" This is an energy crop that can be grown on marginal land,"_
|
| This seems like the lede and comparison to corn is missing point
| and opening itself up to counterpoints that detract from the
| value of using grass on land that would otherwise probably only
| be used for grazing.
| dragontamer wrote:
| The land-conversion from forest or grassland into farmland is a
| surprisingly large effect on the environment.
|
| Making Ethanol from natural grasses and keeping the land
| natural is one of the best things we can do for the
| environment, as well as creating an alternative means of
| capturing solar energy.
|
| You know... if we can get it to be commercially successful. If
| we can't sell the darn thing, then it'd never happen. But the
| theory is sound and enough prototypes have been created that we
| know how this works.
| bumby wrote:
| How much current grassland is used for grazing? Works there
| be any potential pushback from, say, cattle ranchers who
| would be otherwise using the land or is there a plentiful
| amount of otherwise land unused for agriculture?
| rdevsrex wrote:
| Who didn't already get that ethanol was about corn subsidies and
| not the environment?
| phtrivier wrote:
| The article is from 2008. What happened in the 15 next years on
| this front ? Is any biofuel actually produced this way ? How many
| cars can use it ?
|
| Or is the submission a troll on modeling ?
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| Well, this happened for one:
| https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/politics/2017/07/30...
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/biofuels/ethanol-supply....
|
| https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=27&t=4
|
| https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=90&t=4
|
| https://apnews.com/article/ethanol-e15-gasoline-midwest-epa-...
|
| Coincidently, increasing EV sales threatens ethanol production,
| so there are calls for increasing ethanol in fuels to
| compensate. Subsidies typically don't die quietly,
| unfortunately.
| jerrysievert wrote:
| > Coincidently, increasing EV sales threatens ethanol
| production, so there are calls for increasing ethanol in
| fuels to compensate.
|
| I already have to search out "clear" gas to gain back the 25%
| mpg loss I receive when I use ethanol (currently 15% I
| believe in Oregon?).
|
| I fear what adding more will do. if I don't use clear gas, I
| have to run my car a lot more often, which is also not good.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| I accidentally got ethanol free gas one time and was
| baffled at the sky high fuel economy I was getting for that
| whole tank.
| soperj wrote:
| I noticed a massive difference in L/100Km when i filled up
| in the US vs Canada. It was unquestionably cheaper to fill
| up though.
| [deleted]
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| Meanwhile as part of the process of making plastics, we're
| flaring off enough propane and butane to run millions of cars.
| mewse-hn wrote:
| "It's a prediction because right now there are no biorefineries
| built that handle cellulosic material" like that which
| switchgrass provides
|
| so.. nobody can ferment it but it gives a higher ethanol yield
| than corn.. how does that work
| dmbche wrote:
| This video is an interesting look at this whole
| issue:(Engineering Explained - America Was Wrong About Ethanol)
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-yDKeya4SU
|
| Especially his summary, where corn creates 20 percent less GHG
| than gasoline and ''breaks even'' after 28 years, while
| switchgrass creates 94% less GHG and breaks even in it's first
| year.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| Switchgrass farmers don't vote enough. The whole ethanol thing
| was just to prop up corn prices and production during election
| runs.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| How practical is it really? They've been talking about
| ethanol from cellulosic biomass since at least the 1970s but
| progress seems about as fast as fast breeder reactors.
| bluGill wrote:
| The idea looks sound, but cellulose is hard to break down.
| If it wasn't bacteria would have figure it out long ago
| (before the dinosaurs ago)
| soperj wrote:
| There's a number of animals called Ruminants that do it
| regularly no?
| xyzzyz wrote:
| No, that's not right. Cellulose decomposition is easy.
| You are probably thinking about lignin decomposition,
| which is typically done by fungi, not bacteria.
| changoplatanero wrote:
| And to make things worse, corn farmers are concentrated in
| Iowa which was one of the first states in the presidential
| primary. So they had outsized influence over who gets chosen
| as president and what campaign promises they have to make in
| order to get elected.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| one of the first? Don't they literally have laws requiring
| them to have the first presidential primary?
| soperj wrote:
| It was never about GHGs, always about subsidizing corn farmers.
| hawk_ wrote:
| Thanks for that summary, the video doesn't say much more other
| than repeat these things over and over.
|
| One thing that wasn't clear is why does tilling the land
| release so much carbon into the atmosphere?
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Tilling the soil in conventional farming creates large air
| pockets which fill up with oxygen, where microbes then turn
| carbon in the soil into CO2.
| [deleted]
| myshpa wrote:
| Corn-Based Ethanol May Be Worse For the Climate Than Gasoline, a
| New Study Finds (2022)
|
| Long touted as a renewable fuel emitting 20 percent fewer
| greenhouse gasses than gasoline, ethanols' emissions may be 24
| percent higher.
|
| https://insideclimatenews.org/news/16022022/corn-ethanol-gas...
|
| https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2101084119
| credit_guy wrote:
| In reality ethanol is not used as a renewable fuel, although it
| is touted as such. It is simply used to increase the octane
| rating of gasoline. Without ethanol we'd need lead. Or some
| stuff that would be worse. Or, we'd put up with the lower
| octane rating, and so less efficient engines, and fewer mpg,
| and more CO2 emissions.
| bluGill wrote:
| Corn is a type of grass. So is sugarcane. (The article is about
| switchgrass, not generic grass)
|
| I know attempts have been made to use more than just the corn
| seed into ethanol. The big disadvantage is that you take away a
| lot of nutrients from the soil forever. Sulphur for example
| doesn't go back, and so the more of the plant you take away, the
| more you have to add back as fertilizer .
| pstuart wrote:
| seems like the waste from digesters could be returned back as
| fertilizer.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| If only there were at thick black viscous substance rich in
| sulfur that was present in the Earth's crust we could harvest
| easily, then extract the sulfur, & then use to create
| fertilizer.
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